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"The Trayvon Martin shooting."
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Original message

Estee 55682 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

03-24-12, 03:17 PM (EST)
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"The Trayvon Martin shooting."
All I'm personally asking on this case is one simple thing: if the county officials truly believe the trigger was pulled under circumstances of completely legitimate self-defense, then bring the evidence in front of a grand jury and let them vote not to bring an indictment. Make everything legal and completely above ground. Yes, I realize they might have to change venue all the way to an overseas military base just to find some untainted jurors, but do whatever it takes to make sure it's all done properly. If the shooter is innocent in the eyes of the law, have the law say so in writing with attached triplicate copies. And if he was going hunting for teenagers, let the law speak towards that. We can sign endless numbers of petitions, we can march until our shoes fall apart, we can send hoodie sales through the roof, and we can scream and cry and shake fists at the sky -- but it ultimately means nothing until someone starts the paperwork.

Not that I have much faith in a jury. But at least there would have been something.

It just won't be something that keeps the next kid from being killed.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. AyaK 03-24-12 1
   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 03-24-12 3
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Colonel Zoidberg 03-24-12 2
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 03-24-12 4
   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. AyaK 03-25-12 9
       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 03-25-12 10
       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 03-25-12 12
           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. AyaK 03-25-12 20
               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 03-25-12 22
                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. agman 04-17-12 124
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Jims02 03-24-12 5
   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. MNgirl 03-24-12 6
       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. foonermints 03-25-12 8
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. foonermints 03-25-12 7
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kidflash212 03-25-12 11
   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Estee 03-25-12 13
       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 03-25-12 14
       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kidflash212 03-25-12 15
           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Estee 03-25-12 16
               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kidflash212 03-25-12 17
                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. AyaK 03-25-12 21
                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. PepeLePew13 03-25-12 23
                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Starshine 03-26-12 25
                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. AyaK 03-26-12 26
                               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Starshine 03-26-12 27
           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Brownroach 03-25-12 18
               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kidflash212 03-25-12 19
   Robert Champion case: charges file... Estee 05-02-12 127
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. samboohoo 03-26-12 24
   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. AyaK 03-26-12 28
       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. samboohoo 03-27-12 29
           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 03-27-12 30
               Protests foonermints 03-27-12 31
                   RE: Protests kingfish 03-27-12 32
                       So Far foonermints 03-27-12 36
                   RE: Protests samboohoo 03-27-12 33
                       RE: Protests foonermints 03-27-12 34
                           RE: Protests Snidget 03-27-12 35
                               Tough Call foonermints 03-27-12 38
                                   RE: Tough Call Snidget 03-27-12 41
                                       RE: Tough Call foonermints 03-27-12 43
                                           RE: Tough Call Snidget 03-27-12 48
                                               RE: Tough Call foonermints 03-27-12 49
                           RE: Protests samboohoo 03-27-12 37
                               RE: Protests Snidget 03-27-12 39
                               I heard foonermints 03-27-12 40
                               RE: Protests agman 03-27-12 42
                                   RE: Protests Snidget 03-27-12 44
                                       I Don't Care What You Say foonermints 03-27-12 46
                                   RE: Protests foonermints 03-27-12 45
                                       RE: Protests agman 03-28-12 52
                       RE: Protests Estee 03-27-12 47
 Hoodies kingfish 03-28-12 50
   RE: Hoodies dabo 03-28-12 51
       RE: Hoodies AyaK 03-29-12 56
 Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shoo... HobbsofMI 03-29-12 53
   RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... agman 03-29-12 54
   RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... Starshine 03-29-12 55
       RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... Estee 03-29-12 57
   RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... ginger 03-29-12 58
       RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... kingfish 03-29-12 59
           RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... PepeLePew13 03-29-12 60
               RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... kingfish 03-29-12 61
                   RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... Snidget 03-29-12 62
           RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... AyaK 04-02-12 63
               RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... jbug 04-02-12 64
                   RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... AyaK 04-02-12 65
                       RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... Snidget 04-02-12 68
                   At The Rate foonermints 04-02-12 67
               RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... kingfish 04-02-12 66
                   RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... Snidget 04-02-12 69
                       RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... AyaK 04-02-12 71
                           RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... Snidget 04-02-12 72
                               RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... AyaK 04-02-12 73
                                   RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... Snidget 04-03-12 74
                   RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of ... foonermints 04-02-12 70
 Are riots next? AyaK 04-10-12 75
   RE: Are riots next? Snidget 04-10-12 76
       RE: Are riots next? agman 04-10-12 77
   RE: Are riots next? jbug 04-10-12 78
       RE: Are riots next? Snidget 04-10-12 79
       RE: Are riots next? dabo 04-10-12 80
           RE: Are riots next? AyaK 04-10-12 86
   RE: Are riots next? foonermints 04-10-12 81
       RE: Are riots next? Estee 04-10-12 92
   RE: Are riots next? zipperhead 04-10-12 82
       RE: Are riots next? jbug 04-10-12 83
           RE: Are riots next? Snidget 04-10-12 87
               RE: Are riots next? foonermints 04-10-12 89
               RE: Are riots next? jbug 04-10-12 90
                   RE: Are riots next? Snidget 04-10-12 91
                       RE: Are riots next? jbug 04-10-12 95
       RE: Are riots next? kidflash212 04-10-12 84
           RE: Are riots next? AyaK 04-10-12 85
               RE: Are riots next? Snidget 04-10-12 88
                   RE: Are riots next? AyaK 04-10-12 94
       RE: Are riots next? Estee 04-10-12 93
 Lawyer Drama Snidget 04-10-12 96
   RE: Lawyer Drama AyaK 04-10-12 97
       RE: Lawyer Drama Snidget 04-10-12 98
           Clams.. foonermints 04-10-12 99
   RE: Lawyer Drama Estee 04-10-12 101
       RE: Lawyer Drama dabo 04-10-12 102
           RE: Lawyer Drama Snidget 04-10-12 103
 SWOOP agman 04-10-12 100
 Indictment: second-degree murder AyaK 04-11-12 104
   RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... Estee 04-11-12 105
   RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... jbug 04-11-12 106
       RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... Estee 04-11-12 107
   RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... dabo 04-11-12 108
       RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... foonermints 04-11-12 109
       RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... AyaK 04-11-12 110
           RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... dabo 04-11-12 111
               RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... AyaK 04-12-12 112
           RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... HobbsofMI 04-12-12 113
               RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... agman 04-12-12 114
                   RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... dabo 04-12-12 115
               RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... AyaK 04-12-12 116
                   RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... HobbsofMI 04-13-12 117
                       RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... newsomewayne 04-13-12 119
                           RE: Indictment: second-degree murde... Snidget 04-13-12 120
   Trove of Evidence dabo 05-17-12 128
       RE: Trove of Evidence Snidget 05-17-12 129
           RE: Trove of Evidence AyaK 05-17-12 130
               RE: Trove of Evidence dabo 05-18-12 132
 Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor Snidget 04-13-12 118
   RE: Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor AyaK 04-13-12 121
       RE: Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor Snidget 04-13-12 122
       RE: Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor Estee 04-13-12 123
           RE: Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor AyaK 05-17-12 131
 The inevitable consequence AyaK 04-25-12 125
   The oldest battlecry. Estee 04-25-12 126
 Updates AyaK 06-07-12 133
   RE: Updates Estee 06-07-12 134
 wife arrested dabo 06-12-12 135
 Zimmerman's version of events. Estee 06-21-12 136
 Zimmerman to be interviewed by Sean... Estee 07-18-12 137
   RE: Zimmerman to be interviewed by ... Snidget 07-18-12 138
 "It was all God's plan." Estee 07-19-12 139
 But not a qualified instructor in D... Estee 04-24-13 140
 The trial: jury selection in progr... Estee 06-17-13 141
   RE: The trial: jury selection in p... Snidget 06-17-13 142
       RE: The trial: jury selection in p... cahaya 06-18-13 143
           RE: The trial: jury selection in p... foonermints 06-18-13 144
           RE: The trial: jury selection in p... Snidget 06-18-13 145
               All woman jury cahaya 06-20-13 146
                   RE: All woman jury Estee 06-20-13 147
                   Yes foonermints 06-20-13 148
                       RE: Yes cahaya 06-20-13 149
                           RE: Yes dabo 06-21-13 150
                               RE: Yes kingfish 06-21-13 154
                                   No foonermints 06-21-13 155
                           No foonermints 06-21-13 151
                               RE: No cahaya 06-21-13 152
                                   RE: No foonermints 06-21-13 153
 Jury dabo 06-21-13 156
   Junk science out AyaK 06-22-13 157
       RE: Junk science out cahaya 06-22-13 158
       RE: Junk science out Georjanna 06-23-13 159
   RE: Jury Georjanna 06-23-13 160
       RE: Jury foonermints 06-23-13 161
           RE: Jury Georjanna 06-23-13 162
               Certainly! foonermints 06-23-13 163
                   RE: Certainly! cahaya 06-23-13 164
                       Warning: Cahaya foonermints 06-23-13 166
                           RE: Warning: Cahaya cahaya 06-23-13 168
                               Silver? foonermints 06-23-13 169
                   RE: Certainly! Georjanna 06-23-13 165
                       RE: Certainly! foonermints 06-23-13 167
   Gun-totin' B-37 dabo 07-15-13 285
 And here I thought the first thing ... Snidget 06-24-13 170
   I like jokes foonermints 06-24-13 171
       RE: I like jokes dabo 06-24-13 172
           Arrrrgh! foonermints 06-24-13 173
               RE: Arrrrgh! Snidget 06-25-13 174
                   Stop, drop and roll cahaya 06-25-13 177
   RE: And here I thought the first th... Estee 06-25-13 175
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Georjanna 06-25-13 176
 Zimmerman has gained 120lbs. Estee 06-27-13 178
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. dabo 06-27-13 179
   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Georjanna 06-28-13 185
       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. cahaya 06-28-13 186
           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Georjanna 06-29-13 188
               duty Graciela Mercedes 06-30-13 190
                   RE: duty cahaya 06-30-13 191
                       RE: duty Georjanna 06-30-13 193
                           RE: duty kingfish 06-30-13 194
                               RE: duty Georjanna 06-30-13 195
                                   RE: duty kingfish 07-02-13 196
                                       Probably foonermints 07-02-13 197
                                       RE: duty Georjanna 07-05-13 199
                                           RE: duty kingfish 07-08-13 213
                   RE: duty Georjanna 07-05-13 198
                       RE: duty Georjanna 07-05-13 201
                           RE: duty Snidget 07-05-13 203
                               RE: duty Georjanna 07-06-13 205
                                   RE: duty Snidget 07-06-13 206
                                       To Kill a Mockingbird Georjanna 07-09-13 214
                                           RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Snidget 07-09-13 215
                                               RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Georjanna 07-09-13 216
                                                   RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Snidget 07-09-13 221
                                                       RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Georjanna 07-09-13 223
                                                           RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Snidget 07-10-13 224
                                                               RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Georjanna 07-10-13 225
                                                                   RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Snidget 07-10-13 226
                                                                       RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Georjanna 07-10-13 227
                                                                           RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Snidget 07-10-13 228
                                                                               RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Georjanna 07-10-13 229
                                                                                   RE: To Kill a Mockingbird kingfish 07-10-13 231
                                                                                       RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Georjanna 07-10-13 232
                                                                       RE: To Kill a Mockingbird cahaya 07-10-13 230
                                               RE: To Kill a Mockingbird AyaK 07-09-13 217
                                                   RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Snidget 07-09-13 219
                                                   RE: To Kill a Mockingbird cahaya 07-09-13 220
                                                       RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Snidget 07-09-13 222
                                                       RE: To Kill a Mockingbird AyaK 07-11-13 236
                                                           RE: To Kill a Mockingbird dabo 07-11-13 237
                                                           RE: To Kill a Mockingbird cahaya 07-11-13 241
                                                               RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Snidget 07-11-13 243
                                                                   RE: To Kill a Mockingbird cahaya 07-11-13 245
                                                                       RE: To Kill a Mockingbird foonermints 07-11-13 246
                                                                           RE: To Kill a Mockingbird cahaya 07-11-13 247
                                                               RE: To Kill a Mockingbird AyaK 07-27-13 347
                                                                   RE: To Kill a Mockingbird Georjanna 07-27-13 348
                                               PS Georjanna 07-09-13 218
               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 06-30-13 192
                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Georjanna 07-06-13 207
                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-06-13 208
                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. cahaya 07-06-13 209
                               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Georjanna 07-06-13 210
                               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-06-13 211
                                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. AyaK 07-26-13 345
                                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-27-13 349
                                           hah! foonermints 07-28-13 350
                                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. cahaya 07-29-13 351
                                               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-29-13 352
                                                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. dabo 07-29-13 353
                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Georjanna 07-06-13 212
 Some good places to find the facts. Graciela Mercedes 06-28-13 180
   RE: Some good places to find the fa... Graciela Mercedes 06-28-13 181
       RE: Some good places to find the fa... dabo 06-28-13 182
           RE: Some good places to find the fa... Graciela Mercedes 06-28-13 183
       RE: Some good places to find the fa... Georjanna 06-28-13 184
           y,know foonermints 06-29-13 187
               RE: y,know Georjanna 06-29-13 189
 Double swoop block! cahaya 07-05-13 200
   RE: Double swoop block! Georjanna 07-05-13 202
   RE: Double swoop block! Snidget 07-05-13 204
 Defense Rests dabo 07-10-13 233
   RE: Defense Rests cahaya 07-10-13 234
       RE: Defense Rests Snidget 07-10-13 235
       RE: Defense Rests HobbsofMI 07-11-13 238
           RE: Defense Rests Snidget 07-11-13 239
               RE: Defense Rests HobbsofMI 07-11-13 240
                   RE: Defense Rests cahaya 07-11-13 242
                       RE: Defense Rests dabo 07-11-13 244
       RE: Defense Rests AyaK 07-26-13 346
 Jury Question on Manslaughter Snidget 07-13-13 248
   RE: Jury Question on Manslaughter dabo 07-13-13 249
       RE: Jury Question on Manslaughter Snidget 07-13-13 250
 Verdict in Snidget 07-13-13 251
   RE: Verdict in cahaya 07-13-13 252
   RE: Verdict in Brownroach 07-13-13 253
       RE: Verdict in dabo 07-13-13 254
           RE: Verdict in AyaK 07-14-13 255
               RE: Verdict in cahaya 07-14-13 256
               RE: Verdict in HobbsofMI 07-14-13 257
                   NAACP call for civil trial cahaya 07-14-13 258
                       RE: NAACP call for civil trial PepeLePew13 07-14-13 260
                           Brother's comment... PepeLePew13 07-14-13 261
                               RE: Brother's comment... foonermints 07-14-13 265
                           Follow Authourity? foonermints 07-14-13 263
                       RE: NAACP call for civil trial kingfish 07-14-13 268
                           RE: NAACP call for civil trial foonermints 07-15-13 276
               RE: Verdict in foonermints 07-14-13 259
               RE: Verdict in dabo 07-14-13 269
                   RE: Verdict in Snidget 07-14-13 271
                       RE: Verdict in kingfish 07-14-13 272
                           Beware tailgating Rabbis kingfish 07-15-13 275
                               RE: Beware tailgating Rabbis cahaya 07-15-13 287
                                   RE: Beware tailgating Rabbis foonermints 07-15-13 288
                       RE: Verdict in dabo 07-15-13 282
 Failure of law. Estee 07-14-13 262
   RE: Failure of law. foonermints 07-14-13 264
       RE: Failure of law. kingfish 07-14-13 267
           RE: Failure of law. foonermints 07-14-13 270
   Other Stand your Ground Cases In FL... Snidget 07-14-13 266
       RE: Other Stand your Ground Cases I... newsomewayne 07-24-13 335
   Failure of law -- B29 dabo 07-25-13 340
 RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Estee 07-15-13 273
   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. dabo 07-15-13 274
       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-15-13 278
           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 07-15-13 279
               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-15-13 283
                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 07-15-13 284
                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-15-13 289
                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-15-13 290
                           ! foonermints 07-15-13 291
                               RE: ! Snidget 07-15-13 294
                                   Florida has a Big Brain? foonermints 07-15-13 295
                                       RE: Florida has a Big Brain? cahaya 07-15-13 298
                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 07-17-13 309
                               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-17-13 310
                                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. dabo 07-18-13 312
                                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 07-18-13 313
                                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-18-13 314
                                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 07-18-13 315
                                               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-18-13 316
               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Starshine 07-18-13 317
                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-18-13 318
                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. dabo 07-18-13 320
                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-18-13 321
                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. kingfish 07-18-13 322
                               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. newsomewayne 07-24-13 337
                                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Snidget 07-24-13 338
                                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. newsomewayne 07-24-13 339
                                       Cool foonermints 07-25-13 341
                                           RE: Cool Snidget 07-25-13 343
                                               OW!l foonermints 07-26-13 344
                                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. cahaya 07-25-13 342
                   RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. dabo 07-18-13 319
                       RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. Starshine 07-18-13 323
                           RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. dabo 07-18-13 324
                               RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting. cahaya 07-18-13 325
   LA Riot! foonermints 07-15-13 277
       RE: LA Riot! kingfish 07-15-13 280
           RE: LA Riot! foonermints 07-15-13 281
           RE: LA Riot! foonermints 07-15-13 286
               RE: LA Riot! cahaya 07-15-13 292
                   Me! foonermints 07-15-13 293
                       RE: Me! Snidget 07-15-13 296
                           RE: Me! foonermints 07-15-13 297
                               Dangly boink! cahaya 07-15-13 299
                   RE: LA Riot! agman 07-15-13 300
                       RE: LA Riot! foonermints 07-15-13 301
                           RE: LA Riot! cahaya 07-15-13 302
                       Let's See foonermints 07-16-13 303
 Coming full circle... PepeLePew13 07-16-13 304
   RE: Coming full circle... Snidget 07-16-13 305
   Sure! foonermints 07-16-13 306
       RE: Sure! cahaya 07-16-13 307
           Besides the Qui foonermints 07-16-13 308
       RE: Sure! Brownroach 07-18-13 326
           RE: Sure! foonermints 07-19-13 327
               RE: Sure! Brownroach 07-19-13 328
                   Well.. foonermints 07-19-13 329
 Jimmy Carter dabo 07-18-13 311
   Barack Obama dabo 07-19-13 330
       Charles Barkley dabo 07-19-13 331
       RE: Barack Obama foonermints 07-19-13 332
           RE: Barack Obama cahaya 07-19-13 333
               : Barack Obama 666! foonermints 07-20-13 334
 Forbes dabo 07-24-13 336
 No issues whatsoever. Estee 09-13-13 354
   I wonder if moonbaby 09-13-13 355
       RE: I wonder if newsomewayne 09-15-13 356
 Just can't stay out of trouble, can... Snidget 11-18-13 357
   He probably has a few foonermints 11-18-13 358
   RE: Just can't stay out of trouble,... PepeLePew13 11-20-13 364
       RE: Just can't stay out of trouble,... Snidget 11-20-13 365
 He's learned a valuable life lesson... Estee 11-19-13 359
   RE: He's learned a valuable life le... Snidget 11-19-13 360
       RE: He's learned a valuable life le... Estee 11-19-13 361
   RE: He's learned a valuable life le... newsomewayne 11-19-13 362
       RE: He's learned a valuable life le... HobbsofMI 11-19-13 363

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AyaK 10245 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

03-24-12, 03:36 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
I don't want to prejudge this case, because of stories like this:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

And the white-versus-black dynamic of this case seems to have changed once pictures of George Zimmerman started circulating, since Zimmerman is so distinctively Latino-looking.

But I agree that it has to go to a grand jury, because even if the eyewitness testimony is correct, how did Zimmerman end up out of his car in a situation where Martin was on top of him and he (Zimmerman, not Martin) was yelling for help?

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Snidget 44252 desperate attention whore postings
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03-24-12, 03:51 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
Hmmmm...maybe that one martial arts guy was right, if you yell the right thing at the right time before you go on the attack there will be one witness that will remember the other guy starting it and will testify that anything you did was self defense.

I do wonder if the way the law is written really says that if you in anyway make a claim of self-defense you cannot be arrested. I mean usually even when it is clearly a justifiable use of lethal force I fully expect that I will be arrested and arraigned even if the cops, the witnesses and the instant video replay all say I didn't have a choice and if I hadn't defended myself I would be dead and all they will do is send me home on my own recognizance.

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03-24-12, 03:37 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
I can say this much.

1. I don't know how much of an issue race is in this case; it's more about this "stand your ground" law, which needs a good tweak, and how utterly incompetent the police in Sanfrod, FL are. Just arrest the bastard and put him on trial.

2. It is more than possible for this guy to get a fair trial. This is, after all, the state that acquitted Casey Anthony. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is a pretty tough thing to prove.

3. Skittles may be sugary and canned iced tea may be gross, but they're only deadly weapons to people with severe diabetes. Maybe that's what Zimmerman's going to try to prove in court; I don't know.

4. If I'm George Zimmerman, I get the hell out of there and go someplace without TV, social media, or voice boxes. Mars is nice this time of year, I hear.

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03-24-12, 04:04 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-12 AT 04:05 PM (EST)

I can sort of understand why they didn't arrest they guy immediately, they had to do some investigating to determine whether they thought he shot someone committing a crime or maybe self-defence was involved. Which (self defence that is ) on the face of it seems to be a bit implausible to me. I think they should have detained him based on what I've read, but I give the police the benefit of the doubt.

But now, after seeing what the circumstances seem to be, there is a real debate as to whether there was some level of murder involved, and thus something for the grand jury to decide.

I have to say that despite of some of protest rhetoric, that it doesn't seem to be a problem with inappropriate police (or police chief) action but a problem with law application and interpretation.

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03-25-12, 08:52 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
>Which (self defence that is ) on the face of it seems
>to be a bit implausible to me. I think
>they should have detained him based on what I've read,
>but I give the police the benefit of the doubt.

>But now, after seeing what the circumstances seem to be, there
>is a real debate as to whether there was some
>level of murder involved

So do you not believe the eyewitness testimony that Martin had Zimmerman on his back on the ground, or do you have another explanation for how Zimmerman ended up with grass stains on his back, according to the police report? Based on that, murder seems possible as an outcome only if Zimmerman got out of his truck to threaten Martin.

The problem is that Zimmerman unquestionably behaved inappropriately in some fashion. He followed Martin after the 9-1-1 dispatcher told him not to, and he got out of his car for some reason. All of that indicates that Zimmerman provoked whatever happened. But that's not sufficient for murder.

There's also been a lot of false information spewed out by Martin's parents lawyers (the two-shot theory, and perhaps even the idea that it was Martin yelling for help instead of Zimmerman), which has poisoned the public debate. Now we hear that the parents intend to sue the homeowners' association, which makes it look like they're just looking for a "payday," not justice or even answers.

At the rate that this has turned into a three-ring circus, complete with an appearance by MC Barack Obama, I seriously doubt that there will ever be a definitive answer as to what happened. The problem in cases like this is that there are reasons that the police might not want to reveal everything that they know happened (for example, so that they can check the credibility of persons who claimed to have witnessed or overheard the events), but there are no such restraints on making up and publicizing your own theories.

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03-25-12, 09:47 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
There are lots of ways that at some point in a physical altercation either party involved could end up with grass stains on their back even if they started it.

I think the biggest thing is the "if you had only stayed in your car like 911 told you to"...

And, I can see a scenario like my one martial arts/self defense teacher discussed, guy is following you, guy is making it really really really clear that they intend to do you harm...do you wait for them to actually start harming you or do you at some point decide that the best defense is a good offense and deck him with the hopes you can slow him down enough to run away. The only problem with doing that is when the guy has a gun or other weapon and you don't completely take his ability to retaliate away with the first attack.

That is where the "stop touching me like that" before you throw the first punch comes in. People may have noticed the threatening behavior and will swear they saw him start the fight.

That does assume that Zimmerman was doing something that might be seen as threatening or provoking even if the kid would be wrong for starting the fight (if he did and I think we will never really know as we only will have one side of the story).

Did they actually take him downtown and at least question him, as the reports sound like they just sent him home with his still smoking gun in his hand and a pat on the back for a job well done.

I do understand making it legally easier to kill an intruder in your own home. I do have a bit of a concern that if you make it seem like anyone can shoot anyone who might "look suspicious" as self defense that we are going to see a lot more people killed for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Oh, but silly me, guns owned by citizens only kill criminals, they can't kill anyone else. Yes, I've seen the NRA peeps out working some spin already. The law is good, no one should have been arrested, the kid must have done something illegal or he wouldn't have been shot, etc.

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kingfish 16460 desperate attention whore postings
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03-25-12, 10:10 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
A. Zimmerman was pursuing an unarmed Martin with a gun, at night, and ultimately shot and killed him.

B. Zimmerman claims self defence, has grass stains and some eye witness testimony.

C. Florida Laws may allow Zimmerman's actions as a legal form of murder, or they may not.

When did he get the stains? Were they actually related to the incident? Did he trip and fall during the chase, which was at night, or were the stains a result of an attack by Martin? And just what did those eyewitnesses see, at night? How much light was available? Did they actually see Martin attack Zimmerman, or did Zimmerman just stumble and fall during his pursuit of Martin and they just thought they saw a shadowy figure attack him?

I don't have to believe either side to see that Zimmerman's killing of Martin was a homicide, that's a given. Was it illegal? That's the debate. A grand jury should hear the eyewitness testimony and the DA should present what his office has to see if they should indict Zimmerman.

I'll admit that I don't fully understand how Florida's self defence law or the Stand your ground laws are interpreted or how they affect the line between illegal murder and a legal form. And that I resist media explanations. I prefer that they use the local legal forum of the Grand Jury.

My own private theory is that they both contributed to the incident. Martin may have provoked Zimmerman with brash talk and maybe a taunt or two, got under the skin of Zimmerman, a self proclaimed neighborhood cop, and he (Zimmerman) lost control. But who knows.

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03-25-12, 02:42 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
We know the case is going to the grand jury April 10. That's really all we know for sure.

Personally, what I think is most likely to have happened (with no evidence, which means this is just a wild guess based on the limited evidence that we have or think we have) is that Martin ducked behind bushes or something like that, and Zimmerman lost him, so he got out of his truck to see if he could locate Martin. Then Martin jumped him in some way and knocked him down. The eyewitness said Zimmerman was yelling for help at that point, and I believe him -- but would you say that Martin acted unreasonably, given the circumstances? I wouldn't, presuming that those actually were the facts.

At that point, you could legitimately say that both people were afraid for their lives. Martin was afraid of this stranger who was tailing him, and Zimmerman was afraid of this stranger who had jumped him. If anyone, Zimmerman had been the aggressor by having followed Martin. It's hard for me to accept that the law would work in such a way that one of them would lose his life as a result of a deliberate discharge of firearms by the other but the other would walk away scot-free, at least on the homicide charge -- but that does appear to be the way the "stand your ground" law works.

One of the oldest maxims of legal thought is that "hard cases make bad law." Here, it appears more likely that the legislature made a bad law, and that law has led to a hard case. I expect that the intent of the law was that someone would not be required to run if he or she was being menaced by someone else. But here, it looks like the victim was the one being menaced during most of the incident (although probably not at the very end), and I doubt the legislature ever intended for the law to cost a person in that position his life without the killing being at least manslaughter.

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03-25-12, 03:26 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
LAST EDITED ON 03-25-12 AT 03:27 PM (EST)

That's certainly a plausible scenario. I don't think they televise Grand Jury proceedings, even in Florida, but it would be interesting to see what charges will be asked and what evidence and testimony the police are willing to present.

And if they do indict Zimmerman, the media circus will rival that of the Casey Anthony trial. Let's see if the media has learned any lessons from that.

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04-17-12, 09:51 AM (EST)
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124. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
bump


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03-24-12, 06:06 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-12 AT 06:12 PM (EST)

Maybe this is completely unfair of me, but I think the moment Zimmerman pursued that guy, he should lose his self-defense argument. Especially after the 9-1-1 dispatcher told him, "We don't need you to do that, sir." Because now Zimmerman seems to be the aggressor in this situation.

So if I'm in Florida and I go to a bar and see a tough-looking guy there, I can basically walk right up to him and call his girlfriend a whore. Because if/when he starts beating the living crap out of me, or I simply feel "threatened", I'm theoretically allowed to shoot him dead with the handgun in my pocket.

I'm probably going too far in my example and perhaps the Florida law wouldn't cover that situation, but the pursuit is the part that gets me. If that guy would have just done NOTHING (and listened to the dispatcher), Trayvon Martin would be alive right now.


Someone needs to start an anti-tourism campaign of, "I'm not going on vacation in Florida because I don't want to get shot by some loony."

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03-24-12, 10:44 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
That's exactly how I feel. If he hadn't pursued the kid, he wouldn't have been in a position to have to "defend" himself. He called 911. Let them come and check out the situation. Maybe Trayvon felt like he had to defend himself from this man that was basically stalking him.



Agman made me sparkle! October 2011

Explore Minnesota! The loons here don't have guns. They sound really cool, though.

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03-25-12, 04:34 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."

»I don't want to get shot by some loony." «

*looks up*

You are in trouble, Loony.

foonernint: watchful!

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03-25-12, 04:28 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
I have a tendency to agree with Bob.

Some Dorkweed Crazy hunts a kid. It could only happen in LA Florida.

What? Is NY jealous?

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03-25-12, 09:52 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
Murder cases in Florida get treated very differently than elsewhere it seems. Robert Champion was murdered on Nov 19. Authorities know exactly where and how he was murdered. They know the name of every single person who was present when he was murdered and they know exactly why he was murdered. No one has been charged as of yet.



Capn2patch put me in motion!

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Estee 55682 desperate attention whore postings
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03-25-12, 11:26 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
I read SI's account. I don't know if anyone's ever going to see a criminal charge filed. I can pinpoint a few dozen civil suits, but...

*sigh*

To me, it came across as being closer to manslaughter (because proving intent is going to be the next nightmare), but no one's going to be charged with that either.

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03-25-12, 11:48 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
As the twitter meme says...just don't throw flour on a psuedo-celebrity because that will get you arrested. *sigh*
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03-25-12, 12:09 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
I don't get why this is such a nightmare. Charge everyone on the bus. If Moonbaby, Brownroach and I decide to knock over a convenience store and Moonbaby shoots and kills the clerk, Brownroach and I are just as responsible even if we had no idea Moonbaby would shoot the clerk. In the Champion case, why the concern over who did what? Charge all of them and see how quickly the wall of silence falls as they start looking for a plea deal.
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Estee 55682 desperate attention whore postings
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03-25-12, 12:12 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
why the concern over who did what?

You may want to take a long look at that fragment.

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03-25-12, 01:41 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
In the sense that allowing a murder to go unpunished because you do not know who struck blows, just encouraged the beating, or is hindering prosecution by remaining silent - they are all guilty of something.
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03-25-12, 03:06 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
LAST EDITED ON 03-25-12 AT 03:11 PM (EST)

Now you've run into the Constitution.

In the sense that allowing a murder to go unpunished because you do not know who struck blows, just encouraged the beating, or is hindering prosecution by remaining silent - they are all guilty of something.

Actually, no, they aren't. Basically, everyone on the bus could be charged with aggravated hazing under the Florida statute, but they have a right to remain silent under the Fifth Amendment.

The hazing charge would fail unless there was some proof of what each person did to warrant the charge -- the prosecution is responsible to prove BOTH that a crime was committed and that the accused facilitated the crime in some manner. But no one has to testify to anything unless he or she is given immunity from prosecution, which means that the Fifth Amendment protections no longer apply.

That means the prosecutor has to decide, out of an entire busload of potentially guilty people, which ones he wants to offer immunity to. Even then, the worst that can befall someone that refuses to testify is imprisonment during the trial itself; when the trial is over, you're out. And the defendants will probably seek to blame the crime on whomever agreed to testify in exchange for immunity.

Immunity bargains can (and do) backfire. In one case with which I was very familiar, a person approached the FBI and offered the agents information about a crime committed by another person (the "target") without disclosing what the crime was, but only if he was given absolute immunity for any crimes of which the FBI became aware of as a result of his testimony. ATF had been pursuing the target because of its belief (which it couldn't prove) that he had committed firearms violations, so the FBI agreed to the deal. It turned out that his information was about the murder of five people that the immunized person and the target had committed together. The immunized person was willing to reveal this crime because his wife had just left him to run off with the target (and was currently pregnant with the target's child).

The target was given the death penalty and has since been executed. The immunized person walked free, to the FBI's disgust, and is still free to this day. So you really want to be careful before offering immunity deals. But I expect that this case will only be made through such deals.

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03-25-12, 11:19 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
More proof? Karla Homolka struck a deal with prosecutors to testify against Paul Bernardo for the murders of Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffey as well as Karla's own sister - she claimed that she was abused by Paul and so frightened of him that she felt forced to follow Paul's orders, so she got a 12-year deal.

Flash forward a few weeks later, police found a videotape hidden in the rafters of the house where the killings took place -- and it turned out Karla was just as culpable as Paul was, some argued she was actually the aggressor. But the prosecutors struck a deal with Karla and they couldn't go back on it.

As a result, while Paul is rotting away in jail for life without chance of parole, Karla is now free to kill again - she remarried to another convict and they have a child, they're now living in the Caribbean. Based on Karla's post-prison interviews, notorious actions while in prison, and psychology degree obtained on the taxpayer's dime while in prison has actually made her a more dangerous person than ever.

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03-26-12, 10:16 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
On the first point we have a law of "common purpose" over here that can be used against people in a group one (or more) of whom have committed a crime. To simplify to an absurd degree, if people in a group are aware that someone within the group is preparing to commit a crime then they are also complicit in that crime when it occurs.

So if A and B go out to "sort out" C and A is carrying a knife then if B is aware of that fact (s)he/it will be charged with the same crime as A, up to and including murder.

My expectation is that over here everyone on the bus would be in court, and considering everyone was keeping quiet about what happened all would be found guilty.

The wording on arrest is "*Name*, I am arresting you on suspicion of *Crime*. You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence." We lost our right to silence under tony bliars war on human rights

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03-26-12, 11:25 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
"Common purpose" translates into U.S. law as "conspiracy." But your proof problems don't go away, because under U.S. law it is unconstitutional to infer guilt from a refusal to testify.

Keeping that in mind, how can you prove who was aware of the possibility of hazing without at least one person testifying to a prior discussion? (Unless you have a taped conversation, of course, but it doesn't sound like the prosecution does.)

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03-26-12, 11:52 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
That is true, I hadn't thought that through.

I'm not a lawyer, and I haven't heard of cases like that over here, it's just that I find it irksome that a group can get away with something like that by keeping silent. To my mind that isn't the way that the law should work. However I appreciate that any proposed solution would probably cause more problems than it resolved.

It used to be illegal to infer guilt from a refusal to answer police questioning over here although I believe that we were always under the obligation to answer questions in court.

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03-25-12, 02:03 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
If Moonbaby, Brownroach and I decide to knock over a convenience store

Cool idea -- I was trying to come up with activities for our next peep meet.

Charging everyone initially might seem like a plan, but eventually each person's role would have to be determined. And since the only witnesses are the people being charged, you'd likely get a lot of contradictory stories re who did what. I think that's the nightmare factor.

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03-25-12, 02:23 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
LAST EDITED ON 03-25-12 AT 02:30 PM (EST)

In this case, witnesses, who are all members of the same group are delibrately withholding information to protect that group. The prosecution deciding to do nothing because he doesn't know what each person role was in the death is just wrong to me.

The students haven't even been expelled and the group hasn't been disbanded by the school. The sum total of punishment for a man beaten to death by the other members of a college group was a suspension of the group's director.

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05-02-12, 04:06 PM (EST)
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127. "Robert Champion case: charges filed."
Thirteen people charged: two with misdemeanor-level hazing, eleven with felony hazing. The later carries jail time of up to six years.
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03-26-12, 09:51 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
I think we will never know what really happened.

That being said, I think Zimmerman's self-defense argument got lost the moment he pursued - especially when he was told not to. There have been a lot of things coming out of this about Zimmerman that make me question his credibility at all. IMO, he seems to be a person who has some kind of police/hero complex.


Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie


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03-26-12, 07:58 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
LAST EDITED ON 03-26-12 AT 07:58 PM (EST)

To even the score, things are now starting to come out about Trayvon Mertin.

Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin

Miami Gardens teenager Trayvon Martin was suspended from school in October in an incident in which he was found in possession of women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that a school security staffer described as a “burglary tool,” The Miami Herald has learned.

Trayvon, who claimed that an unnamed friend had given him the jewelry, was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. . . .

The reports of the <multiple> suspensions surfaced as a more complicated portrait of Trayvon began to emerge Monday. Trayvon was shot to death in Sanford on Feb. 26 during a scuffle with neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman. He was suspended from school at the time.

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03-27-12, 09:22 AM (EST)
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29. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
This reminds me of a recent homicide here. A local high school student was killed in his home during a would-be drug exchange gone bad. The student was killed by a fellow classmate, along with two others. The victim's mother at one point spoke out and said (almost exactly), "My son is not a drug dealer. He goes to church every Sunday." Evidence and investigation proved he was. The mother basically looked like an idiot, and it was apparent she didn't know a lot about her son - something I suspect is true about a lot of other parents.

This whole story is tragic. At this point, I still agree that none of this would likely be an issue if Zimmerman had not pursued, as he was instructed by the dispatcher.

I feel so much sorrow for the parents. No matter what, this was their child, and I would never want to go through the pain that they are going through in that regard. I don't know that they have really had time to grieve.


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03-27-12, 09:34 AM (EST)
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30. "RE: The Trayvon Martin shooting."
Yep, unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the only chase down someone and end up killing them as self defense case in Florida.

They had the guy who wrote the law on NPR, he kept saying it was a good law but it is the fault of the cops and court system they keep letting people off by using this law the wrong way. Neither case was what he was intending. However, he feels better to err on the side of letting citizens kill others rather than the way the laws used to be where your duty was to de-escalate the situation rather than escalate it until you have an excuse to shoot someone.

I understand wanting to let people protect themselves, but I think using laws to let people chase down people to set up a violent confrontation isn't really going to get rid of violence on the street like this guy is so concerned about.

I do wonder how long it will take before innocent people that tend to be targeted start arming themselves just to defend themselves against neighborhood watch people or others that decide they need to play hero.

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03-27-12, 10:11 AM (EST)
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31. "Protests"
In Los Angeles are targeting the shooter for justice.

From what I have seen, the guy is an idiot, and possibly abusing the law, but I certainly don't appreciate the "Bread and Circus" act of Al Sharpton to incense his mob.

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03-27-12, 10:27 AM (EST)
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32. "RE: Protests"
And the Al Sharpton clones that are coming out of the woodwork from as far away as Baltimore. Curiously, most are claiming the title "Reverend".

You got to wonder what sort of self promotion and media manipulation courses are being included in theological curriculums now days.

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03-27-12, 11:13 AM (EST)
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36. "So Far"
I've seen about 12 different kinds of T-Shirts printed with pictures and various slogans, but just in black and white.

There's a dark joke in there somewhere, but I ain't sayin'

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03-27-12, 10:40 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: Protests"
My co-worker and I discussed this briefly yesterday. The protests. It seems to me that people are just itching to protest anything these days.

Here's my thing about it. I completely understand the outrage on the parents' part. Completely. And I have to wonder how much of their decision-making is really being affected by their grief.

Now, without the protests, I don't know what kind of justice would have been served because I still stand beside the argument that Zimmerman should not have pursued him. Now it's ugly. Really ugly. And I don't know that I've ever seen anything different when Al Sharpton gets involved. Or Jessie Jackson.

And, frankly, I think President Obama should have not commented on it. It's too similar to the Connecticut police case that he "didn't have all of the information on," yet commented adding fuel to that race fire.


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03-27-12, 11:05 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: Protests"
No argument on the outrage of the parents. Heck if I know beans about the Florida legal system. As far as I know, you still can't pursue and shoot an unarmed potential burglar. If the kid knocked the block off this guy, he was looking for trouble. You just don't knock the block off somebody with a gun.

I don't even know if he was white. Not that it makes a daaayuum bit of difference to me.

GAH! But when you get The Mob involved, how is there justice? Thank you, Cicero. We recall Tawana Brawley.

I didn't know Obama had commented on this.
I view him as just a puppet anyway.


foonermint: mean-mean-mean!

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03-27-12, 11:12 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: Protests"
How about chasing them down and stabbing them to death, is that OK?

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/stand-your-ground-and-vigilante-justice/254900/

Although apparently that dead guy had actually burgled something.

The mob justice calling for Zimmerman's head on a platter isn't any better.

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03-27-12, 11:58 AM (EST)
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38. "Tough Call"
In the long run, stuff is still just "stuff", but if I had intercepted the person who stole my bike out of my garage, if I couldn't knock him off it, I may have shot him.

Heat of the moment, maybe.

Good thing the shotgun has a light load with rock salt. I've learned from the military, LAPD and Sheriffs about non-lethal alternatives. No use being lethal about replaceable "stuff".

Sandee threatened? Well, that's what a 70cal rifled shotslug is for. No problemo. I'll take the consequences after the immediate problem is blown up, like Moley's lamb.

Sounds like the crazies are abusing this law. Is it that badly written? Not that it wouldn't surprise me.


Blame Agman for all the Peace and Love.

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03-27-12, 12:16 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: Tough Call"
I don't know about how it is written, but how it is being applied seems to be if we don't like the dead person then lethal force is self defense no matter who was chasing down whom or what provocation was being used.

I think the problem is some people don't like the "duty to retreat" but we probably will need a few cases of "kept going after someone" before the laws are rewritten.

Here is part of the law

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

So I think the problem is how much stalking and chasing after is "lawful activity" and what is "reasonably believes" that someone might be doing something felonious or harmful.

The question is how many people armed with candy, or vigilante wannabes have to be killed before they figure it all out. Because if I were in Florida this would almost make me want to carry a gun in case some cop wannabe decided to get up in my face. I think with my coloring that is unlikely, but if I can be shot because someone thinks I might be up to something bad I may want to rely on something other than my ability to duck.

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03-27-12, 01:36 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: Tough Call"
"No duty to retreat"

That is a problem. I've confronted more than a few nuts wandering around in my neighborhood. My weapon: A camera. One of the principles for our neighborhood watch is: Identify Identify Identify. If this person or vehicle is a potential problem, we give all our information to LAPD Pacific Division. If it looks like an imminent threat, call 911.
We're lucky to have good police response, not to mention our new neighbor who just bought the house across the street (she's a cop). Not a younger version of Kinsey Milhone, though. *sigh*

I've had people pursue me back to my house.
That shows that they really must have just gotten out of a mental hospital.*


OH and Hee!

»my ability to duck. «


Handcrafted by RollDdice
foonermint: sees all! knows all!
*And please spare me the "It takes one to know one"

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03-27-12, 01:54 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Tough Call"
LAST EDITED ON 03-27-12 AT 02:01 PM (EST)

That is the policy, from what I understand, of all legit neighborhood watch programs.

While some people call this guy a neighborhood watch captain, it appears that wasn't part of any official group. So far everyone I've seen from any sort of neighborhood watch type of organization says he shouldn't have had a gun and should have just gone to the location the cops told him to go to in order to pass on the information he had. They would kick out anyone that was doing it the way he was.

I suspect if he didn't have a gun he'd have been less likely to follow a guy on foot. Sometimes the weapon makes you feel more invincible than you are and stupidity erupts. I think that and the chance someone will get the gun off you is why most neighborhood watch type groups will not carry them.

ETA: It does seem the neighborhood may have started a group and he was part of that, but they were unaffiliated with any official organization and so may have not been using the rules that most of the affiliated groups recommend/require. I have heard people from the official groups make it clear they do not consider him one of their own and are trying to distance themselves from this style of watch activity.

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03-27-12, 02:15 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Tough Call"
»the weapon makes you feel more invincible than you are and stupidity erupts.«

So True, so true.

In the World of Conjecture:
Let's say ol' Iffy Neighborhood Watch person follows Treyvon, get's his butt kicked and decides to skin the Smoke Wagon, gunning him down in the middle of Dodge City 'cause he's pissed?

An idiotic situation to put yourself in.

Who Knows.. who knows?

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03-27-12, 11:25 AM (EST)
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37. "RE: Protests"
The protests have brought attention to the case - perhaps justice is the wrong word. I saw the story on Weekend Today a week or two ago. That was the first bit of attention. I don't recall at that time hearing anything about Zimmerman being injured. Then the protests started, now we have lots of attention.


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03-27-12, 12:04 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: Protests"
Seems like until the family started pushing for the 911 tapes to be released no one really cared about this case at all.

Although the info that the 3 am report had Trayvon's full name and info, but no one contacted the family until after they filed a missing person's report hours later seems odd.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/the-killing-of-trayvon-martin-more-questions/2011/03/04/gIQALETDeS_blog.html

Although it could be the cops filing paperwork hours later, but still, you would think they would not identify him in paperwork time stamped long before they knew who he was?

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03-27-12, 12:06 PM (EST)
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40. "I heard"
That he was injured, but heck if I know what to believe now.

I want pictures!


Peace Out with Agman. The Ocean is always there.

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03-27-12, 01:30 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: Protests"
IT's really frustrating because it seems like the story keeps changing. I just don't know what to believe anymore(I know, that's what fooner said too).


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03-27-12, 01:39 PM (EST)
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44. "RE: Protests"
My sense is part of the problem is when the news media, for whatever reason, ignores a story and someone involved wants to make noise you typically get the noisemaker's side of the story first. Once the first side has made enough noise then the other side will come out and you get the other side.

I don't know that we ever get the whole story at first (if ever). Especially when it takes the family to get the media ball rolling.

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03-27-12, 01:46 PM (EST)
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46. "I Don't Care What You Say"
It's still good for T-Shirt sales.
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03-27-12, 01:42 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Protests"
»(I know, that's what fooner said too).«

JINX!

I miss the innocent days of "Balloon Boy"

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03-28-12, 06:37 PM (EST)
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52. "RE: Protests"
*patiently waits for someone to say Agman!

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03-27-12, 01:48 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: Protests"
I'm sorry to say that with Jesse Jackson, I'm at the point where I have to make an active effort not to hold his involvement against the victims.
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03-28-12, 03:55 PM (EST)
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50. "Hoodies"
Stand up and fight for the right to wear a Hoodie.

(Where do these people come from?)

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/28/politics/congressman-hoodie/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Racial profiling? I get what He's trying to say, and it still sounds very ignorant stupid idiotic not very smart.

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03-28-12, 04:30 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Hoodies"
And let's all thank Geraldo for sidetracking this story with this hoodie nonsense. But at least we've learned when in the House one should pull the hood back off the head, which is only common courtesy as hats are usually pointless when inside.
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03-29-12, 02:38 PM (EST)
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56. "RE: Hoodies"
LAST EDITED ON 03-29-12 AT 02:39 PM (EST)

Yep, it's amazing that someone who is a complete joke (like Geraldo) has stayed on the air for so long. I still remember him for this fiasco:

The Mystery of Al Capone's Vaults

At the time, I figured Geraldo for a hired stooge. But now I know that stupid comes naturally to him.

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03-29-12, 08:11 AM (EST)
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53. "Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied

I'm still waiting on the investigation to be completed before jumping to anything but this don't look good.


sig Syren, bouncy by IceCat, bobble head by Tribephyl, and snoglobe by agman

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03-29-12, 09:49 AM (EST)
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54. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
Just keeps getting better all the time *sigh* I'm sure there will be more videos to come in this case.


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03-29-12, 02:27 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
It's nice to know that I was a dangerous hoodlum in the 90's when I was wearing my James Hoodie!

Bringing styles of clothing into the discussion doesn't seem to be moving anything forward.

Lovely cheese Mooney

Just another Sleeperbloke


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03-29-12, 02:41 PM (EST)
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57. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
If having a warm head in winter makes you a criminal, then let me be a criminal.

Admittedly, a criminal who spends a lot of time rebrushing the style damage.

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58. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"


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03-29-12, 05:28 PM (EST)
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59. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
I agree that Zimmerman is probably lying in this case and should be charged with something, Fl. laws not withstanding. But technically, about the grass and blood stains and the wounds, it was the police who initially investigated Zimmerman at the scene who reported that. At least according to CNN. And if that's accurate, that's not his lie.

It is very curious that there are no signs of trauma on Zimmerman in the video, but there are also conflicting reports about how long after the shooting that video was made. Given sufficient time, shirts and jackets can be changed and blood wiped from wounds. Light grass stains can be brushed off, unwise as it would be eliminate corroborating evidence.

Broken nose wounds, since they tend to bleed from the inside out would be hard to see after bleeding has stopped and the blood wiped away. Can't explain the apparent lack of a stitched head wound, except that the cap shown is fuzzy. However, if he has been to the hospital to get stitches, it that would have been easy enough to explain why all the other signs of a struggle aren't there any more.

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03-29-12, 08:35 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
I've seen the original video, I've seen a tweaked up-close video, and I've personally tweaked a couple of photos up close in Photoshop. There's not a shred of evidence anywhere of an injury or mussed up clothing or grass stains or anything else. If the video was taken some time after (a day? four days?), there would have been stronger evidence of medical care as the redness/discoloration from stitches would be more apparent by then. If it was within a day, a bandage would have been present to cover up the stitches and/or facial injuries sustained in a scuffle.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then....

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03-29-12, 08:51 PM (EST)
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61. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
No real argument, and I don't think it was a justified shooting, it's just that if he had been to the hospital as the poilice claim and where he would have had to go for stitches if indeed he had them, that would account for everything except the lack of head stitches. And to be honest, I have yet to see the claim that he had stitches anywhere except here.

And I have seen various reports that it was the police on the scene, not Zimmerman, that described his injuries and grass stains.

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03-29-12, 09:06 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
I checked what the lawyer was quoted as, and they said laceration bad enough for stitches, but he didn't have time to go to the hospital.

You would think that the cops would have documented any injuries on him, and I'd have taken the time to get everything documented by a physician.

He must have had time to go shower and change as most scalp wounds that need stitches that I've seen bleed like crazy.

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04-02-12, 05:18 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
>I agree that Zimmerman is probably
>lying in this case and
>should be charged with something,

You do?

Let's see, here's columnist Charles Blow in the Times on March 25:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/opinion/blow-a-mothers-grace-and-grieving.html?_r=1&scp=22&sq=trayvon+zimmerman&st=nyt

To believe Zimmerman’s scenario, you have to believe that Trayvon, an unarmed boy, a boy so thin that people called him Slimm, a boy whose mother said that he had not had a fight since he was a preschooler, chose that night and that man to attack. You have to believe that Trayvon chose to attack a man who outweighed him by 100 pounds and who, according to the Sanford police, was wearing his gun in a holster. You have to believe that Trayvon chose to attack even though he was less than a hundred yards from the safety of the home where he was staying.

Of course, then the Times had to admit that the gun was concealed and Trayvon wouldn't have seen it, but the size discrepancy was a strong argument against Zimmerman's story in the court of public opinion.

Ahh, but then the Times dropped this unexpected little nugget into a news story today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all

However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5-foot-9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6-foot-1 and 150, wrestling on the ground.

What happened to the slight little boy being menaced by big man who outweighed him by 100 pounds? Fiction. Trayvon was 4 inches taller and only 20 pounds lighter than Zimmerman.

So where did the false information that Zimmerman was 100 pounds heavier than Trayvon come from? Apparently from Trayvon's family, just like most of the other false information out there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/us/justice-department-investigation-is-sought-in-florida-teenagers-shooting-death.html

“Everybody is outraged,” said Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father. “There is no justice in this. The public is outraged because my son only had snacks in his pocket, no weapon whatsoever, not even a fingernail file. For him to be murdered by someone who weighs more than 100 pounds than him, more than 10 years older than him, this is an outrage.”

Of course, the nondisclosure of the actual weight differential fits with the middle-school picture of Trayvon that's been used so much in the coverage. I had no idea that Trayvon was actually 6-1, not the little kid on the cover of People Magazine. Did you?

The only thing that a rush to judgment, like the one here, produces is injustice.

Just like all the quick posts, such as ones in this thread, contending that the police video showed Zimmerman was uninjured (again, fueled by Trayvon's parents). But even ABC News now admits. . . .

George Zimmerman Video Shows Injury to Back of His Head

Another "fail" for the original media narrative that this was an execution-style killing by a racist white man.

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04-02-12, 06:28 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
I've said many times
the media gets much too involved in cases where they should get the fact first.

What ever happened to
innocent until proven guilty?

not in the media

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04-02-12, 06:43 PM (EST)
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65. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
The problem I have with this case is that I think Zimmerman should at least be tried on charges of involuntary (2nd-degree) manslaughter (and from what I believe he's probably guilty of that charge, because he followed Martin after being requested by police not to do so, and at some point left his truck to follow Martin on foot, and none of the rest of this crap comes down without him doing that), and yet I'm forced to defend him because the lynch mob is out for him for much more serious charges . . . without any evidence except for their preconceptions.
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04-02-12, 07:09 PM (EST)
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68. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
It definitely is a case that has a lot of assumptions jumping all over it.

And on both sides. He wasn't walking in a gated community he had no business in at 3 am as some people who are backing Zimmerman claim. I mean the do actually let black people own homes in those places or visit people who live in them, and 7 at night is not an unusual time for an older teen to be going to the store to get something.

I do think on the "executed for no good reason" side you have a lot of people dumping their own experience of being suspected of something when they were just living their life like they thought they had a right to.

Heck, even in most studies people with darker skin tones are still more likely to assess a picture of a dark skinned person as up to no good compared to pictures of lighter skinned people.

So I think the "it just makes sense" the kid had to be shot for no reason and the cops are in on it (even after the fact) has taken over rather than the "something seems off about this" lets get more information to find out what really happened.

I do think it has raised some awareness of some of the subtle ways societal assumptions do effect people's lives. Even if this isn't a case of that. (but I do think the young black man wearing a hoodie has to be a criminal assumption has played some role in what happened).

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04-02-12, 07:03 PM (EST)
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67. "At The Rate"
This is going we will find out that Trayvon was packing a Stinger missile.
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66. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
LAST EDITED ON 04-02-12 AT 06:57 PM (EST)

Based on what I've seen and read, and also based on the vagueness and discrepancies reported, I have no criticism of the police or the Fl. justice department. I assume that the Fl. DA's reversal of the decision by local police that Zimmerman should be arrested was based on competent advice. However, it could seem to be interference, and could lead one to wonder why.

But, since Zimmerman is at least a material witness and could possibly hit the road for foreign lands if an arrest warrant is issued, if not a prime suspect in a possible murder, the police should probably have detained him. But I admit that my reaction is based at least partially on gut reactions influenced by the media who are as you mention are putting out a lot of contradictory and presumptive information. And I can see that the FL. justice dept probably has wiser heads than mine, and that he'd probably just be freed on bail.

I hesitate to criticise the family whose idiotic statements are emotion driven, I'd probably be making a fool out of myself if every self aggrandizing "adviser" was whispering in my ear that there was a conspiracy and that I ought to be outraged. Latest I heard was that the family is demanding that the Fl. DA be investigated. One would have to strongly suspect that that kind of blustery BS is the result of those "advisers" interference.

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04-02-12, 07:22 PM (EST)
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69. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
I just wonder how much faster the media would have jumped on a white kid in a private school blazer getting shot for daring to stand up to some Hispanic neighborhood watch dude.

And I wonder how long that white kids parents would wait to see if something would be done about it, even if it was just out on bail during the investigation.

I do think sometimes the hysteria that happens in some cases is because it takes some outlandishness to get attention in certain situations. If this were a pretty white girl we'd probably have had live feeds from a news helicopter before the coroner showed up rather than hearing about it weeks later. But I may be cynical.

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04-02-12, 07:54 PM (EST)
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71. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
>I just wonder how much faster the media would have jumped
>on a white kid in a private school blazer getting
>shot for daring to stand up to some Hispanic neighborhood
>watch dude.

There's another one of the assumptions that make this case so problematic. According to the police report, Zimmerman said that he lost sight of Martin and left his truck to look around (Martin apparently was taking a shortcut through a shared backyard area). When he was out of his truck, according to Zimmerman, Martin came up from behind him and asked (politely or hostilely, we don't know) why Zimmerman was following him. Does that equate to "daring to stand up to some Hispanic neighborhood watch dude"? I don't know.

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04-02-12, 08:01 PM (EST)
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72. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
I'm still not clear who came up to whom, but going with the story line that Trayvon may have at some point did something other than run for home.

What I don't know is who talked to whom first, what if any physical altercation happened, when or why the gun was pulled, but it does seem at some point the two did have some interaction before the bullet entered Trayvon's chest, and Zimmerman probably at some point reacted as if it was something other than a friendly hello to the neighborhood watch guy.

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04-02-12, 11:44 PM (EST)
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73. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
But what's the difference between "standing up to" someone and aggression?

And another thing: there has been all kinds of discussion on this thread about the "stand your ground" law. Even I have sucked into it, because it's been part of the media narrative.

Now, I admit to not being an expert on Florida criminal law, but it seems to me that the "stand your ground" law was totally irrelevant to this case from the facts that we currently have. Instead, Zimmerman's defense on the use of force seems to come down to a common self-defense claim, and "stand your ground" is not even relevant.

And yet another thing: some self-proclaimed "audio expert" named Tom Owen claims to a "scientific certainty" that it wasn't Zimmerman screaming on the 911 call. I'd take him more seriously if his claims about the case weren't totally contradicted by his own website.

http://www.owlinvestigations.com/article1.html

III - THE METHOD OF VOICE IDENTIFICATION

. . . The first step is to evaluate the recording of the unknown voice, checking to make sure the recording has a sufficient amount of speech with which to work and that the quality of the recording is of sufficient clarity in the frequency range required for analysis. The volume of the recorded voice signal must be significantly higher than that of the environmental noise. The greater the number of obscuring events, such as noise, music, and other speakers, the longer the sample of speech must be. Some examiners report that they reject as many as sixty percent of the cases submitted to them with one of the main reasons for rejection being the poor quality of the recording of the unknown voice.

Once the unknown voice sample has been determined to be suitable for analysis, the examiner then turns his attention to the voice samples of the suspects. Here also, the recordings must be of sufficient clarity to allow comparison, although at this stage, the recording process is usually so closely controlled that the quality of recording is not a problem.

Once the unknown voice sample has been determined to be suitable for analysis, the examiner then turns his attention to the voice samples of the suspects. Here also, the recordings must be of sufficient clarity to allow comparison, although at this stage, the recording process is usually so closely controlled that the quality of recording is not a problem.

The examiner can only work with speech samples which are the same as the text of the unknown recording. Under the best of circumstances the suspects will repeat, several times, the text of the recording of the unknown speaker and these words will be recorded in a similar manner to the recording of the unknown speaker. For example, if the recording of the unknown speaker was a bomb threat made to a recorded telephone line then each of the suspects would repeat the threat, word for word, to a recorded telephone line. This will provide the examiner with not only the same speech sounds for comparison but also with valuable information about the way each speech sound completes the transition to the next sound.

There are those times when a voice sample must be obtained without the knowledge of the suspect. It is possible to make an identification from a surreptitious recording but the amount of speech necessary to do the comparison is usually much greater. If the suspect is being engaged in conversation for the purpose of obtaining a voice sample, the conversation must be manipulated in such a way so as to have the suspect repeat as many of the words and phrases found in the text of the unknown recording as possible.

The worst exemplar recordings with which an examiner must work are those of random speech. It is necessary to obtain a large sample of speech to improve the chances of obtaining a sufficient amount of comparable speech.

. . . which basically means that the description of what he does on his own website fatally impeaches his credibility, considering that he claimed to authenticate that the voice wasn't Zimmerman's using only the few seconds of poor-quality background screaming in the 911 call and only Zimmerman's own, much calmer 911 call as the reference.

But hey, anything for those 15 minutes of fame, right? No matter how outrageous?

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04-03-12, 08:02 AM (EST)
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74. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
I dunno what happened, (or if there will ever be a proper description of what happened) but the implication from me is Trayvon didn't run away, assume the position or submit completely. I dunno if he just "stood his ground" or went on the attack, or what. I'm sure he didn't offer himself up for a citizen arrest in a submissive manner, but that's about all I can be sure of.

I don't really trust Zimmerman's side of the story, after all he has enough self-interest to say what he thinks will keep him out of jail. I don't really trust the eyewitnesses, I know the court system often does, but all too often people don't remember what they saw, and sometimes didn't even see (cognitively process) what they saw (light that hit their eyeballs) accurately. We don't really have Trayvon's side of the story, but his family has their own grief and self-interests that play a role in what they will say, so....a big mess all round.

There is enough conflicting information coming out I certainly couldn't say if things were verbal, physical, or who started what.

Seems most people who are involved in the writing of the law agree that the "stand your ground" law should not be applied in this case or at least one of the other cases where it has been the defense used when someone went to trial.

It does seem to be a DAW-paloosa all the way around and way too many people using it to get on TV with something they want to promote as fact/proof. So much "evidence" on the TV that will likely not be in any way admissible in court. I have a feeling if they ever do bring this to trial it is going to be one of those the jury decides on what was presented in court as they are supposed to, and the public can't understand why they didn't take evidence presented on TV by a hype-monster as the facts of the case.

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04-02-12, 07:23 PM (EST)
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70. "RE: Trayvon Martin's dad: Video of shooter at station proves he lied"
LAST EDITED ON 04-02-12 AT 07:25 PM (EST)

Does Al Sharpton need to swoop in here?

Oops.

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04-10-12, 09:33 AM (EST)
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75. "Are riots next?"
Now that the Trayvon Martin narrative has morphed from the original media-fueled story of "bad white guy murders angelic black child" into something much more complex and unknowable, it looks like violence may be the next step.

Police Car Shot Up in Trayvon Martin's Neighborhood

Note, though, that the first picture they use of Trayvon in the ABC News story is the child picture.

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04-10-12, 10:06 AM (EST)
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76. "RE: Are riots next?"
Oh goody, add extremists from both sides to a volatile situation and stir!

Probably doesn't help the DA cancelled the grand jury on this. While they only need it for first degree murder and all it says is they probably won't charge him with that, it doesn't mean that there will be anything that can be done by the legal system, either.

I dunno if there is any good resolution to this. Don't arrest ever an wait until people get obsessed about something else doesn't seem to be likely to work. Arrest and you get a bunch of people up in arms as well. Do they ever put jurors into the witness protection program? I wouldn't want to be a juror, no matter what happens someone will be howling for your blood.

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04-10-12, 10:10 AM (EST)
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77. "RE: Are riots next?"
This would be a time I would defenitely want to call in sick for Jury Duty!

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04-10-12, 10:38 AM (EST)
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78. "RE: Are riots next?"
Did this happen in Martin's neighborhood? or in the neighborhood where he was shot? or are the 2 neighborhoods the same?
Just another case of the media not getting it right.

Police Car Shot Up in Trayvon Martin's Neighborhood

Six shots were fired into an empty police cruiser early today in the Florida neighborhood where black teenager Trayvon Martin was shot and killed


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04-10-12, 11:03 AM (EST)
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79. "RE: Are riots next?"
Based on looking at the map. He was staying at a house about a block from where he was shot. Not sure what other houses he may live at, but since it is the father's girlfriends house I assume there may be more than one.

The cop car sounds like it was across the street from the gated community by the elementary school so about 2 blocks from the house, and one block from the shooting.

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04-10-12, 11:10 AM (EST)
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80. "RE: Are riots next?"
LAST EDITED ON 04-10-12 AT 11:17 AM (EST)

The neighborhood where he was shot and killed. His dad's neighborhood where he was living (visiting) at the time he was shot and killed.

http://www.officer.com/news/10690628/fla-cruiser-shot-at-near-site-of-teens-slaying

Ayak's link goes to a report with a loop of vids about the case, vid of the police cruiser shooting has now apparently been removed.

)sigh(

Bottom line: An innocent teen in what was ostensibly his own neighborhood, just out to get some snacks, was shot and killed. Is this a case of an over-zelous neighborhood watch commando taking things too far? Is this a case of an innocent person being stalked, turning on the stalker, being killed as a result of that confrontation? Are hoodies to blame?

)sigh(

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04-10-12, 01:25 PM (EST)
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86. "RE: Are riots next?"
OK, here's a site that still has the police car shooting footage up:

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Sanford-Police-car-shot-near-Trayvon-Martin-shooting/-/1637132/10396904/-/hmjsbvz/-/index.html

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04-10-12, 11:15 AM (EST)
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81. "RE: Are riots next?"
Looks like everybody has a share!

»Electronic roadside signs had been used throughout Central Florida to alert people to the rallies.

And the New Black Panther Party offered a $10,000 bounty for Zimmerman.

In Detroit, far from the Florida town where Martin was shot and killed, drivers were shocked on Sunday to see an electronic highway sign with the word "Trayvon" followed by a racial slur.

At Ohio State University last week the words "Long Live Zimmerman" were scrawled across the side of the Frank W. Hale Jr. Black Cultural Center.

A group of armed neo-Nazis from the National Socialist Movement have descended upon the town, touting their intention to patrol the town to protect whites against a race riot.

The Rev. Terry Jones, the controversial pastor who once threatened to burn copies of the Koran, announced last week his plan to hold a rally on April 21 at the Seminole County Courthouse in support of Zimmerman and his constitutional rights.«

We just need The Weathermen and Earth First!


Milo Minderbinder? Still kicking.


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04-10-12, 04:03 PM (EST)
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92. "RE: Are riots next?"
Milo Minderbinder

He'd be bribing one group with $1000 to riot, then setting up first aid services nearby at $2000 per customer. And at that, he'd consider himself to be undercharging.

*knocks wood before next statement*

I'm surprised Westboro hasn't found a way to get involved.

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04-10-12, 11:51 AM (EST)
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82. "RE: Are riots next?"
If there's not a riot over this, there will be a riot over something. Soon.

Its pretty clear that there is a lot of tension, anger and fear just under the surface of the American psyche. There's a lot of uncertainty about the future of this country. So there are segments of society who want to stake a claim for the future of America, as they want it to be. Lots and lots of those people have guns.




There have been crazies advocating for a race war for a loooong time. They won't be satisfied until there is blood shed.

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04-10-12, 01:00 PM (EST)
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83. "RE: Are riots next?"
Media and advanced technology take news like this farther than ever before.
Think back to 1995& the OJ Simpson case.
We relied on radio & tv mostly.
Yes, there was internet but not near as many of us used it then as we do now; and we didn't have the fancy phones to keep everyone in constant touch with news - whether it is accurate or not.

I remember watching the verdict with a co-worker. She was ready to leave work to go march in protest if he had been found guilty.
I still to this day don't understand how she thought he was innocent. But that's just me.

If we had had the technology then that we have now, just think how much more protesting and scares of riots there would have been.

If OJ Simpson had been convicted, I believe there would have been riots.
If Zimmerman is not convicted, I believe there will be riots.

Doesn't matter the innocence or guilt.

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04-10-12, 01:26 PM (EST)
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87. "RE: Are riots next?"
I dunno that the media is the only thing to blame for riots as there have been plenty of riots before the internet, and even before radio and TV.

That being said, this does seem like the kind of thing that would set off riots, but I think those prone to the rioting are always looking for something and have always found a way for the current technology to be the trigger.

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89. "RE: Are riots next?"
I agree. Maybe the internet adds a degree of "FlashMob" to the mix.

flashmobbiness?

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04-10-12, 02:51 PM (EST)
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90. "RE: Are riots next?"
I'm not saying technology is to blame for the riots; just instant access and constant bombardment about it - people might be excited & prone to riot more than if they weren't constantly having it thrown in front of them.
Maybe I'm saying things don't have a chance to calm down
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04-10-12, 03:50 PM (EST)
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91. "RE: Are riots next?"
It might change which things get the riots, or how they recruit potential rioters, but I remember plenty of riots from my childhood. But then that was a rather contentious decade.

I do think this information overload goes both ways. These days we hear about a lot more riots than we used to. What might have been a local only story now gets nationwide attention as the 24 hour news cycle needs a lot more to fill it up than 30 minutes of national news every night thing used to.

Not sure about riot stats, but I've seen stats on other things that show that even as the number went down overall, the number people know about went way up so it seems more common even when it is now less common.

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04-10-12, 05:01 PM (EST)
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95. "RE: Are riots next?"
good points
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04-10-12, 01:05 PM (EST)
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84. "RE: Are riots next?"
With Neo-Nazis patrolling the neighborhood where Trayvon was shot (saying they are there to protect white people), riots seem to be a very real possibility. Interesting that a FOX news affiliate would refer to a neo-nazi group who idolize Hitler as a "civil rights group".



Capn2patch put me in motion!

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04-10-12, 01:16 PM (EST)
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85. "RE: Are riots next?"
Sorry, the neo-Nazi story is a hoax springing from a false story in the Miami New Times (which has now been "updated" to include the information that, according to the Sanford PD, there are no such patrols).

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/04/heavily_armed_neo-nazis_patrol.php

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04-10-12, 01:27 PM (EST)
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88. "RE: Are riots next?"
So just excessive DAWness.

After all why put your butt on the line if just making a few statements to someone likely to spread it will do.

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04-10-12, 04:31 PM (EST)
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94. "RE: Are riots next?"
Right.

According to Poynter's debunking of this "story", the person making these claims about citizen patrols was in Detroit. If the New Times was actually "reporting", it might have wondered why someone in Detroit was coordinating patrols in Florida. But I guess getting Web hits on a fake story is better than providing a real story.

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93. "RE: Are riots next?"
And in this case, the radicals are on all sides. On the plus part of the ledger, we currently have most of them in a small area.

I'm waiting for one or more of the parties to cross the line between hoping for a riot and actively staging one.

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04-10-12, 09:14 PM (EST)
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96. "Lawyer Drama"
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/10/2741248/george-zimmermans-lawyers-withdraw.html

Apparently he isn't talking to his lawyers and saying they are just advisers anyway when he tried to talk to the prosecutor on his own. And the prosecutor's office was you bring your lawyers with you, we will talk.

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04-10-12, 09:30 PM (EST)
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97. "RE: Lawyer Drama"
The last thing you'd want your client doing under these circumstances is what Zimmerman is doing: reaching out to the special prosecutor and the media.

The problem is that everything he says, if it isn't 100% accurate, can be used against him. Even if it's 95% accurate, it's a problem, because more people talk their way into prison than ever talk their way out of it.

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04-10-12, 09:38 PM (EST)
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98. "RE: Lawyer Drama"
*nods*

Definitely not the wise choice. Knowing the biology of memory even the little bit I know every time you tell the story chances are you will make small changes to the memory. Even if the bits that change aren't the biggies or all that relevant to who is innocent or guilty every time they find a minor inconsistency they can use that against you.

I don't plan on ever being in trouble, but I like to think I have enough sense I wouldn't be causing myself even more trouble like this.

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04-10-12, 09:42 PM (EST)
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99. "Clams.."
Smarter than they are letting on.
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04-10-12, 09:55 PM (EST)
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101. "RE: Lawyer Drama"
Thus continuing to demonstrate the kind of intellect which got him into this in the first place.
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04-10-12, 10:45 PM (EST)
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102. "RE: Lawyer Drama"
It shouldn't take much longer for him to call Bob Costas to set up his interview.
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04-10-12, 11:03 PM (EST)
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103. "RE: Lawyer Drama"
All the cool kids are doing it when they get in trouble.
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04-10-12, 09:52 PM (EST)
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100. "SWOOP"

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04-11-12, 06:21 PM (EST)
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104. "Indictment: second-degree murder"
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2012/04/11/zimmerman_attorneys_no_longer_representing_him/

Unless the prosecution has some evidence that it hasn't revealed, there is no way that Zimmerman is convicted of this charge. But the political pressure will cool off now.

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04-11-12, 06:48 PM (EST)
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105. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
The Florida statute plus a definition of an important term in it:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

http://www.richardhornsby.com/crimes/homicide/second-degree-murder.html

So the question here is: baring that miracle evidence, did the prosecutor's office do no more than postpone the riots? While a lesser charge might have set off something here and now, that outcry might be nothing compared to what would happen if Zimmerman is acquited of the charge they did bring. Would they have had more luck dealing with the grenade of an ultimately-successful manslaughter or aggravated assault instead of the nuke from Not Guilty?

I know there's politics here, but I still feel they should have charged on something they could prove. This may not be it.

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04-11-12, 06:51 PM (EST)
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106. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
I was listening to news tonite & a lawyer made a comment that said in part "to get justice for Trayvon Martin."
Maybe I don't understand the phrase, but when I hear that it sounds to me that that person is saying Zimmerman is guilty.

If Martin attacked Zimmerman, then who needs justice?

Not taking either side; just asking for clarification.

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04-11-12, 07:06 PM (EST)
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107. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
There's a question left out of yours. If the attack was initiated from that side, why was it launched? It's not as if there's only one reason to go for someone and all fights start spontaneously.

Beyond that, who needs justice? The wronged party. And there's a chance that could be everyone involved --

-- but Zimmerman remains an idiot.

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04-11-12, 07:26 PM (EST)
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108. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
Sounds about right since his own actions were reckless and it was his own gun he carried into the situation, whatever actually happened. I wouldn't think it impossible to get a conviction on this charge, but now they are going to have to go through an arduous jury selection to try to get as impartial a jury as possible to have a fair trial.

Unfortunately, no matter what they do, it is going to be another media circus of a trial.

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04-11-12, 09:47 PM (EST)
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109. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
Bread and Circuses.
Rome isn't dead, and Balloon Boy wasn't cutting the mustard.

Maybe the Sharpton/Jackson bank accounts are running low.

I hear The Rolling Stones are going on tour, too.
foonermint: A sarcastic little monkey.

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04-11-12, 10:33 PM (EST)
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110. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
>Sounds about right since his own
>actions were reckless

Reckless has a special meaning in this situation, which can sometimes make it difficult for juries to get it right. Normally in law, reckless merely means negligent. But here, it goes way beyond negligent. Basically, it involves taking an action that is certain to end up in serious bodily injury to someone, such as starting a fistfight in a bar. So, to convict George Zimmerman of this charge, you have to prove that he went out looking for someone to seriously injure and was indifferent as to whom it might be.

Mere negligence (what we'd normally refer to as "reckless") is an element of manslaughter, not murder.

Honestly, unless the prosecution has some "mystery evidence" whose existence has never even been hinted at, the chances of convicting Zimmerman of this charge at a fair trial are nil. In all honesty, the judge shouldn't even let it go to trial without such evidence -- although any judge with the courage to stand up to the Trayvon mob probably wouldn't be found in Florida state court.

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04-11-12, 11:07 PM (EST)
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111. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
I was using reckless in the general sense, thanks for clearing up the legal distinctions.

Generally nowadays prosecutors are in the habit of charging suspects with the most they can, so a 2nd degree murder charge for what should be some form (aggravated, whatever) of manslaughter seems right. They couldn't have made a case for 1st degree murder although I'm sure they explored the possibility. Anyway, 95+% of all criminal cases result in some sort of plea bargain, hence the purpose of throwing the book at the suspect. In a media trial, though, the logic of that becomes an over-zelous prosecutor and more nonsense for the talking heads like Nancy Grace to go bombastic over.

As for more evidence, there is a rumor that there is another recording of some sort that hasn't been available to the public. I wouldn't be surprised if that rumor turns out to be more gelderfarb, of course. Anyway, they'll have to go through disclosure, arguments about what can and cannot be submitted as evidence, all the fun stuff of a real pre-trial.

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04-12-12, 08:53 AM (EST)
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112. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
You're right in one regard: prosecutors overcharge as a matter of course. Basically, the ethical standard is that, viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution, you as a prosecutor should be able to convict the defendant of that charge -- and prosecutors tend to view their evidence in a very, very favorable light.

One fact that I haven't heard discussed in any of the public discussion is the result of the gunshot residue test. Normally, it's possible to determine the distance between the shooter and the victim. If there were a significant distance between them, that would detract from Zimmerman's claim that he felt in imminent danger when he fired and serve to contradict Zimmerman's story and the witness testimony in a way that such a charge might fly. Or if there was some evidence that Martin was fleeing (trajectory and distance), that might justify the charge.

If they were close together, though, I'd be surprised if the charge survived even the preliminary hearing.

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04-12-12, 01:06 PM (EST)
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113. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
But wouldn't it be reckless by disobeying the 911 operator?

And/or wouldn't it be reckless by disregarding his watch training to not get involved and not to be armed while on watch patrol?


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04-12-12, 01:38 PM (EST)
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114. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
>And/or wouldn't it be reckless by
>disregarding his watch training to
>not get involved and not
>to be armed while on
>watch patrol?

That's what I'm curious about!



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04-12-12, 01:50 PM (EST)
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115. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
State and local laws vary throughout the country, as for example neighborhood watch and guardian angel programs are legally restricted in terms of pepper spray and tazers in New York, but those are perfectly acceptible and readily available in California. Was Zimmerman in compliance with carrying a handgun per legislation in Florida? Despite the fact doing so is discouraged in national neighborhood watch and guardian angel programs, if he was in observance of state law he was in observance of state law.

Stand your ground law is just the tip of the iceburg, Florida's laws and regulations have barely been examined as yet.

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04-12-12, 02:59 PM (EST)
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116. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
According to the NYT, Zimmerman was out of the car and following on foot already at the time that the 911 operator told him to stay in the car.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us/justice-department-opens-inquiry-in-killing-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

In the 911 call, Mr. Zimmerman, using an expletive and speaking of Trayvon, said they “always get away.” The 911 dispatcher told him not to get out of the car and said the police were on their way. Mr. Zimmerman was already outside. A dispute began. Mr. Zimmerman told the police that Trayvon attacked him and that he fired in self-defense.

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04-13-12, 03:10 AM (EST)
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117. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
Even if he was already out of the car he was disobeying the 911 operator when he continued right then and didn't turn right back around for the car. Reckless or not?


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04-13-12, 08:24 AM (EST)
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119. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
I'd say that depends on the length of time between the suggestion he return to his vehicle and the altercation that led to the shooting. Nothing I've seen has given any indication of that timeline, but I've not been following this very closely, either.
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04-13-12, 08:35 AM (EST)
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120. "RE: Indictment: second-degree murder"
Yep, there is a lack of fine details of exact locations and timing information on this case. And I could see why they may be keeping that under wraps at this time.

I hope once the trial starts we get a good analysis of the timing and locations of everything, and which, if any versions, even make logistical sense.

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05-17-12, 08:44 PM (EST)
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128. "Trove of Evidence"
LAST EDITED ON 05-17-12 AT 08:45 PM (EST)

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/17/11748468-court-docs-trayvon-martin-shooting-ultimately-avoidable-by-zimmerman?lite

Lab tests by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement's Orlando operations center concluded that residue tests on Martin's sweatshirt were "consistent with a contact shot" — that is, one in which the muzzle of the weapon is physically touching the victim.

But the autopsy report from the Volusia County (Fla.) Medical Examiner's office reached a different conclusion based on examination of the wound itself, saying, "This wound is consistent with a wound of entrance of intermediate range."

The report doesn't define "intermediate range."

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05-17-12, 09:16 PM (EST)
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129. "RE: Trove of Evidence"
Googled around, couldn't get a farthest distance but usually 10 mm or greater, but close enough there are marks on the skin from the gunpowder spray.

Closer than 10 mm to against the skin is "near contact".

So it seems these have forensic definitions.

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05-17-12, 11:01 PM (EST)
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130. "RE: Trove of Evidence"
LAST EDITED ON 05-17-12 AT 11:02 PM (EST)

The forensic definition of "intermediate range" is between 1 and 18 inches.

The physical evidence described in the arraignment is consistent with the shorter range.

Basically, the Martin case is imploding, which should be a lesson to many of the posters in this thread. Zimmerman had clear head wounds. The witnesses saw Martin pounding Zimmerman MMA style. The evidence was that it was Zimmerman, not Martin, calling for help.

Frankly, unless the prosecution has some non-mitigating evidence against Zimmerman that it hasn't released yet, the prosecutor who brought these charges should be disbarred for gross incompetence. Prosecutors have a public duty not to bring charges for which the extant evidence, read in the light most favorable to the victim, do not support the charges. After reading this evidence, it's obviously insufficient to support a charge of second-degree murder, even read in the light most favorable to Martin. It's also obvious that the prosecutor chose not to go to a grand jury because no grand jury on earth would have brought the charges she did when shown all this evidence. In other words, she abandoned her responsibilities to seek praise from the likes of Obama and the NY Times and so chose to become a persecutor instead of a prosecutor. That should be sufficient for the state of Florida to pull her law license. For good.

Maybe she can go work for Obama's Committee to Re-Elect the President (CREEP).

For a review of the evidence, see this link:
Cops, Witnesses Back Up George Zimmerman's Version of Trayvon Martin Shooting

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05-18-12, 00:24 AM (EST)
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132. "RE: Trove of Evidence"
Thanks for clearing up the definition of "intermediate range." That came from the medical examiner, the forensic conclusion was "contact shot". Given that definition, those two determinations really aren't far apart, both indicate close proximity, which is consistant with Zimmerman's version of events as well as the statements from eye witnesses.

I was kind of hoping you would find the smoking gun in all those pages, I looked through them and it was just puzzling.

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04-13-12, 07:55 AM (EST)
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118. "Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor"
I don't think this is helping..
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/zimmerman-neighbor-rash-robberies-young-black-men-trayvon-145647987.html

Seems to add to the "he was out looking for someone to shoot" mythos even if he is trying to defend his friend's actions as normal/justifiable.

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04-13-12, 09:00 AM (EST)
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121. "RE: Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor"
I disagree. He's presenting two points, and one of them very well. That point is that Zimmerman wasn't prone to violence (the "looking for someone to shoot" idea), because he called the police and just waited for them even while witnessing a robbery in progress. That rebuts the whole "Zimmerman shot Martin because he's a wannabe cop" idea that has permeated so much of the chattering about this case. If he wanted to draw his gun on someone because he was a wannabe cop, he would have done that with the burglars, whom he'd caught in the act.

The other point is that Zimmerman following a young black male was reasonable, as the perpetrators in the recent crimes were young black males. It would make sense that Zimmerman would want to see where he went in that scenario.

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04-13-12, 09:11 AM (EST)
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122. "RE: Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor"
LAST EDITED ON 04-13-12 AT 09:28 AM (EST)

I think some of my sense may be more from the vibe the guy gave during the interview. Kind of a why is anyone upset this boy got shot, you just have to assume that you will die for the sins of other people and it shouldn't be a problem for anyone when that happens.

Although maybe it is more evidence that the DAW going to the press is itching to shoot someone than Zimmerman.

ETA: Although how it effects the "they always get away with it" kind of statement on the "not-911" call. The guy made a big deal that his friend did not call 911 to report this, but used the other line to the non-emergency dispatcher. He was really upset people called those recordings 911 calls (even if a lot of the other bits recorded around that time were actual 911 calls).

I do think a lot will come down to how close were they when the shooting occurred and if they can determine who was on top of whom at what point or if there was evidence collected to determine who had defensive wounds, etc. Some of the "he was going for my gun" thing may play out several different ways depending on what, if any, physical evidence they have.

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04-13-12, 10:31 AM (EST)
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123. "RE: Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor"
But as an attorney, do you want this man presenting these points in those words? Because in print, it's hard to see the text for the virtual hood. Imagine how much fun he's going to be for whoever has to put him on the witness stand -- especially on cross. And his odds of being called to testify aren't exactly zero.
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05-17-12, 11:05 PM (EST)
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131. "RE: Zimmerman's Friend/Neighbor"
Based on what we've seen so far, I doubt if Zimmerman is even going to have to present a defense. He should be able to get a directed verdict of acquittal as soon as the state finishes presenting its case.
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04-25-12, 00:37 AM (EST)
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125. "The inevitable consequence"
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/50/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

Mobile police tell News 5 they still hope to make an arrest in the Matthew Owens case before the end of the night.

Owens was beaten Saturday night in front of his home on Delmar Drive. Witnesses, including Owens sister, say 20 black people attacked Owens with pipes, paint cans and chairs. Owens is still in ICU at USA Medical Center <in critical condition>. Weaving in and out of consciousness, Owens told his brother Lloyd, "Don't let me die."

Police continue to downplay the Trayvon Martin connection to the beating. But a neighbor confirms what his sister told News 5. The neighbor, too scared to go on camera, told News 5's Lauren Vargas that they heard one of the suspects say "This is justice for Trayvon" as she drove away.

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04-25-12, 05:55 AM (EST)
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126. "The oldest battlecry."
LAST EDITED ON 04-25-12 AT 06:13 AM (EST)

"Remember the atrocity committed against us the last time which will excuse the atrocity we're about to commit!"

And what happens when someone seeks their idea of justice for Matthew Owens?

ETA: Just read the latest update to the story. Admittedly, scaring kids away from your house by waving knives could be classified as 'begging for it' (assuming you believe neighbors who might be trying to justify this -- but his police record indicates at least a chance), but we're still talking about disproportionate retribution.

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06-07-12, 03:01 PM (EST)
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133. "Updates"
LAST EDITED ON 06-07-12 AT 03:02 PM (EST)

Zimmerman had his bail revoked for failing to disclose the money being raised for his legal defense on his website during the bail hearing. We'll see where that goes.

But more interesting (to me, at least) was the meltdown by the special persecutor in the Zimmerman case (and, apparently, full-time lunatic) Angela Corey directed at Harvard Law School. As I said before, the fact that she has a license to practice law in Florida speaks poorly for the level of both legal knowledge and self-regulation in the Florida bar:

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Zimmerman-Trayvon-Angela-Corey/2012/06/05/id/441305

She insisted that she is entitled to submit what, in effect, were half truths in an affidavit of probable cause, so long as she subsequently provides the defense with exculpatory evidence.

She should go back to law school, where she will learn that it is never appropriate to submit an affidavit that contains a half truth, because a half truth is regarded by the law as a lie, and anyone who submits an affidavit swears to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. . . .

In her motion to revoke <Zimmerman's> bail, Corey argued that Zimmerman “intentionally deceived the court” by making “false representations.” The same can be said about prosecutor Corey. She too misled and deceived the court by submitting an affidavit that relied on a review of photographs and other reports that showed injuries to Zimmerman, without disclosing the existence of these highly relevant injuries.

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06-07-12, 04:13 PM (EST)
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134. "RE: Updates"
"Because normally the attempted admission of half-truths is the realm of the defense?" is the cynical -- and wrong -- answer. Both sides are trying to get away with everything they can manage: that's standard policy. But the prosecution may have more to lose. Even if Zimmerman is innocent (for a really narrow definition of 'innocent'), the community is likely to go off the instant that verdict comes down -- and the career of anyone asked to put him in jail will self-destruct with it. It doesn't excuse her actions, but it might get a little closer to explaining them.

As for the level of legal knowledge in Florida -- well, we all know where that leads to by now.

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06-12-12, 04:58 PM (EST)
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135. "wife arrested"
This is becoming a wonderful example from both sides of how not to do it.

Shellie Zimmerman charged with perjury.

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06-21-12, 02:25 PM (EST)
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136. "Zimmerman's version of events."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/97802972/George-Zimmerman-Written-Statement
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07-18-12, 05:58 PM (EST)
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137. "Zimmerman to be interviewed by Sean Hannity tonight."
Please explain to me any possible way where that could end well.
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07-18-12, 06:12 PM (EST)
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138. "RE: Zimmerman to be interviewed by Sean Hannity tonight."
Their meeting creates a singularity that implodes the entire Fox News building?

I know, I'm so cute when I'm hopeful.

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07-19-12, 06:06 AM (EST)
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139. ""It was all God's plan.""
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57475344-504083/george-zimmerman-to-sean-hannity-trayvon-martin-shooting-was-a-tragic-situation/

You don't get to take that one back. Your lawyer can speak to you between segments as much as possible and give marching orders to retreat from that position, but you can never take it back. You understood the question, it was your first response, and that's how you feel about things. And that makes you too dangerous to walk the streets with the sane.

What was the defense's goal in this interview? If it was to further poison any potential jury pool, mission accomplished. And if they were looking to get sympathy for the client, they found it -- but not from me. And some of those now rooting for Zimmerman are the ones they were best off without.

I doubt he'll take the stand in his own defense. But we have his testimony now. And more than that, we have his beliefs.

Wonder how much of it Hannity and Faux agreed with.

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04-24-13, 03:23 PM (EST)
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140. "But not a qualified instructor in Dude Not Funny."
Almost lost this one in the news shuffle -- but any glimpse into typical police empathy, even a belated one, is worth a quasi-megabump.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/14/travyon-martin-ron-king/2081467/

I realize it's a closed-off little world which does its best to keep outsiders from crossing the borders, but you'd still think one person would have proposed 'Hey, what if...?'

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06-17-13, 02:21 PM (EST)
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141. "The trial: jury selection in progress."
Just don't ask me how much progress they've actually made, because we're on Day Six. Ye gawds, how many challenges does each side get in Florida? Or have most of these been dismissals by the judge?
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06-17-13, 03:00 PM (EST)
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142. "RE: The trial: jury selection in progress."
But they are just picking the pool from which they will pick the jurors from.

I believe they only need 6.

I think what is taking so long is they ask "what have you heard about this case" and they can't move on until the potential juror, of their own volition, stops talking.

I'm guessing if you are off the radar enough to avoid all coverage of the shooting, you are off the radar enough that the letters for jury notification also can't find you.

Once they have the pre-selection of some 40 or so, then they will move on to the actual jury selection.

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06-18-13, 00:57 AM (EST)
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143. "RE: The trial: jury selection in progress."
Yup, as I recall it was from an original pool of about 200 culled from questionnaires, most of them tossed out, and now they're down to refinement of jurors who will eventually be sequestered.

Given that both the prosecution and defense have a say in this process, I'm going to give an early wild-card prediction of a hung jury.

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06-18-13, 11:00 AM (EST)
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144. "RE: The trial: jury selection in progress."
I guess that shoots down my expectations.

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06-18-13, 02:04 PM (EST)
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145. "RE: The trial: jury selection in progress."
My early wild-card prediction, from the jury we will get at least 4700 post trial interviews, 2 books, and one made for TV movie script.
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06-20-13, 06:44 PM (EST)
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146. "All woman jury"
Wow. And all white except for one out of the six chosen.

I think the betting odds on an acquittal or hung jury just raised a notch.

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06-20-13, 07:11 PM (EST)
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147. "RE: All woman jury"
Beyond that, three things stood out: only six for a criminal case (which made the odds of all-anything a little lower), they already know who the alternates are, and no Afrimericans -- the defense must have been challenging darker skin tones out of the box on autopilot.

I agree with the decision to sequester here. I'd also throw in some bodyguards and have someone in the courtroom on constant picture patrol. It's easier to get images of jurors than ever and someone will try to make their identities public before this ends.

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06-20-13, 11:01 PM (EST)
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148. "Yes"
An all white jury will never find him guilty.

Wonder if some of them practice Voodoo in their basement? Quakerism? Devil worship?

foonermints: Riding The Rails..

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06-20-13, 11:41 PM (EST)
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149. "RE: Yes"
LAST EDITED ON 06-20-13 AT 11:55 PM (EST)

Did you actually say riding the rails?


Passengers on fooner's crazytrain

Tsk, tsk, shame on you!

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06-21-13, 00:00 AM (EST)
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150. "RE: Yes"

I expect there weren't very many people in the jury pool who hadn't been tainted about this case already by the media coverage. Seriously, I hope they also questioned people about whether they watch Faux News or listen to Hannity etc. on the radio.

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06-21-13, 10:06 AM (EST)
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154. "RE: Yes"
LAST EDITED ON 06-21-13 AT 03:02 PM (EST)

Everyone's working off stereotypes, so I won't apologize for doing the same. From our perspective, it’s all we have. And in Florida, at least the racial stereotypes are certainly alive and well, and real. But how will that play out in this case, where a Latino shoots a black kid? Hard to say. There is a strong bias against Latinos (Cubans) in the minds of a lot of Floridians, as is there against black people in the minds of others.

There is also something to the stereotype that women are less prone to convict, especially if it means possibly putting anyone on death row. And maybe they can be swayed by emotional pleas from the shooter? Or maybe not, women can be pretty hard-nosed, too.

But I would expect an all-woman jury to be more sympathetic to the young unarmed kid who was shot dead than the shooter. So I think it's far from certain that an all women almost (5 out of 6) all-white jury will not convict Zimmerman.

We might actually have a fairly balanced jury; it might be as fair as could be reasonably been expected.

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06-21-13, 09:51 PM (EST)
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155. "No"
Jury is truly fair without "Hang 'Em High" foonermints.

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06-21-13, 01:12 AM (EST)
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151. "No"
I did not say "riding the rails." Just look it up, it's right there in black and white!


Anyway, what does it really mean? "Underground Railroad"? "Ridden out of Town on a Rail"?
A free ticket on the CrazyTrain?

Who am I? Midas?
Aside from that, the jury is women! Fickle, easily swayed 2nd class citizens. That's what we pay them for! At least half.
Sorry girls, your "Rosy The Riveter" days are gone. NOW you are going back to the Ayatollah!

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06-21-13, 01:22 AM (EST)
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152. "RE: No"
I hear my train acoming.

Best acoustic ever.

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06-21-13, 01:39 AM (EST)
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153. "RE: No"
I am going to steal that girl's sunglasses.
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06-21-13, 10:24 PM (EST)
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156. "Jury"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/who-are-the-jurors-deciding-george-zimmermans-fate-heres-a-look-at-the-panel-of-6-women/2013/06/20/5a5cb3cc-d9fb-11e2-b418-9dfa095e125d_story.html

B-51. Retired, not married, doesn’t have kids. She has lived in Seminole County for nine years. She has worked in real estate and run a call center where she said she had experience resolving conflicts. When asked if Zimmerman did something wrong by following Martin instead of waiting for police, she said: “Yeah, I guess he did do something wrong.”

B-29. Recently moved to central Florida from Chicago, enjoys watching the “Real Housewives” on television, works as a nurse on an Alzheimer’s section of a nursing home. She is married and has several children. A prosecutor described her as “black or Hispanic” during jury selection.

B-76. Has lived in central Florida for 18 years. She manages rental properties with her husband of 30 years. She has two adult children, including one who is an attorney. She is involved with rescuing animals in her free time. During jury selection, she said she had been the victim of a nonviolent crime. “Everyone deserves a fair trial,” she said.

B-37. Volunteers rescuing animals. She is married to an attorney and has two adult children. She said she and her husband used to have concealed weapons permits. During the last round of questioning, she said she had an issue with the type of weapons people are allowed to carry. She also thought weapons’ training was inadequate for people seeking permits. “It should become harder,” she said.

E-6. Married and has two children. She has worked in financial services and has lived in Seminole County for two years. She is active in her church and involved with her children’s school. During jury selection, she said she didn’t know the facts of the case well.

E-40. Works as a safety officer and recently moved to Seminole County from Iowa. She describes herself as a football fan. During jury selection, she said she had been the victim of a nonviolent crime.

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06-22-13, 07:57 PM (EST)
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157. "Junk science out"
The prosecution's supposed audio experts failed the Frye test for scientific acceptance of method and thus will be excluded. Another victory for real science over legal junk science, even in a state that doesn't adopt the federal Daubert standard (which more severely limits the type of junk science that can be admitted as expert testimony).

One of the prosecution's audio "experts" claimed to have spent 700 hours working on the case. Talk about bilking the taxpayers. . . .

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06-22-13, 08:59 PM (EST)
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158. "RE: Junk science out"
{Judge Debra} Nelson concluded that “there is no competent evidence that the scientific techniques used by Mr. Owen and Dr. Reich are generally accepted in the scientific field. There is no evidence to establish that their scientific techniques have been tested and found reliable.”

Nelson also confirmed that the order does not prevent the recordings from being played during the trial, and witnesses familiar with the voices of Zimmerman and Martin may still testify regarding the identity of the screams.


Foo dogs by tribe

Let the jury decide on what they hear.

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06-23-13, 11:51 AM (EST)
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159. "RE: Junk science out"
LAST EDITED ON 06-23-13 AT 04:42 PM (EST)

Law and Politics fascinate me. So, because I prefer to follow the political and/or judicial events that interest me with a minimum of filtering opinion, I watch a lot of C-Span and assorted Live Streams. And, for the Zimmerman Trial that has meant considerable time spent at WFTV and with the Video/Blog Archives of their trial coverage.

Note: Unfortunately, although they have streamed all of the proceeding’s pre-trial hearings, the site’s Archives do not contain the video of those hearings alongside its complete record of the (to-date) nine days of jury selection/trial and I haven’t been able to find archival video of the hearings (including the Frye testimony of Mr. Owens and Dr. Reich) anywhere else. I wish I could. Because, in my opinion, the testimony of both of the Prosecution’s experts (and particularly that of Dr. Reich) was embarrassingly painful to watch/hear and I’d really like to have a video/audio exhibit to back me up.

But, (Bravo! Don West, Irritante Extraordinaire) we do have a record of Judge Nelson’s Order Excluding The Opinion Testimony of Mr. Owens and Dr. Reich and on its face, it would seem that, in addition to excluding the testimony of the two Prosecution witnesses – but not that of the four Defense experts (Drs. Nakasone, French, Duddington and Wayman) whose opinions she embraced in her Ruling – she virtually invited the introduction of the 911 tape and the testimony of family members (Martin and Zimmerman) regarding the voice identification of the person heard screaming on it.

So, if the Prosecution calls Mr. Martin’s mother or another Martin family member – it is unlikely that they would call his father in view of the fact that he has recorded very different conclusions regarding his recognition of the voice as being/not being that of his son – does the Ruling’s embracing language ...

“None of the other witnesses were able to hear the words heard by Dr. Reich. The Court heard testimony about ‘listener bias' , where a listener with a biased outlook, often due to knowledge of underlying facts, makes conclusions to support his or her preconceived notions. It was hypothesized that Dr. Reich, who took up the case based upon personal interest, subconsciously heard identifiable words. The Court finds that Dr. Reich’s testimony regarding the amplified tapes would confuse issues, mislead the jury and, therefore, should be excluded from trial."

... also invite/encourage/allow the Defense to counter that familial testimony by calling one or more of its own experts to inform the Jury about “listener bias” and thereby avoid the trap of calling a competing Zimmerman to the stand to opine that the voice heard screaming was that of the defendant – perhaps opening the door for the Prosecution to demand that George Zimmerman scream for the jury’s edification?

Or, is the Prosecution going to be permitted to make that demand with no other prerequisite other than the 911 Tape’s introduction into evidence?

G

ETA:

One of the prosecution's audio "experts" claimed to have spent 700 hours working on the case. Talk about bilking the taxpayers ...

And, according to his testimony, he isn't done yet! But, to be fair, I think that the 700 hours included time spent while on his own dime or on the loose change of a newspaper. However, I would never swear that I understood Doctor Reich ... about anything.

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06-23-13, 04:36 PM (EST)
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