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qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 10:27 AM (EST) "RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" I am seriously pissed off at Nigel & Co. Every other dance genre gets someone that is well known and/or respected in their field (even Doriana Sanchez, even tho' I suspect she is the only Disco expert left in the world) -- Argentine Tango - No. Just give it to anyone. Alex da Silva , sure why not. His only Argentine tango credits is that he choreographs Argentine tango for SYTYCD. And when there is a routine (FINALLY) that I start to suspect Alex has studied tango with some tango masters rather than trying to learn it off a video, Nigel & Co. decides to throw it to Dmitri. Guess Alex's last routine wasn't sleazy enough. Wasn't enough like the Moulin Rouge hooker dance number. Or Chicago's prison scene. OK Da Silva is gone. Argentina is in South America, that's latin, right? Dmitri hasn't worked this season so let's give it him. Who are they going to give the choreo to next -- the cameramen, Doriana Sanchez? Yes, I am taking it personally because I feel so disrespected. And I don't mean to dis' anyone who liked last night's performance. The music was great (guess what Nigel -- Jorge Torres, the dance captain of Forever Tango -- where the music was taken from -- is a fantastic teacher and can choreograph a sleazy stage tango that actually has tango in it). But what Dmitri did was not a tango. I would classify it more as a cabaret done to tango music. The clip of Dmitri and his partner dancing the tango at the beginning made my heart sink (she stumbled and lost her balance). You would think they would know enough to tell the cameramen for a do-over. But THEY JUST DON'T CARE. When Chelsie and Joshua were actually stepping on the ground rather than setting up the lifts and poses, it was done in a very ballroom way. BUT NOONE CARES. They watch something and try to fit it into what they already know rather than try to understand the dance (did one of the judges actually use the phrase chenee turns? What?). ARGENTINE TANGO IS NOT BALLROOM. The frame is different, even the fundamentals of how the foot is placed is different. The philosophy of the dance is different. Maybe it is because the ballroom community thinks it owns tango, all tango and if the realization got out that they don't understand Argentine tango, that it can't be standardized and commodicized (is that even a word?), then the Brazilians would insist on taking their samba back. So Nigel if you are stuck and don't know how to google "Argentine Tango Choreographers and Teachers", please PM me. I could give you several names that I know of -- some even in your area so you only have to spring for bus fare. (I am trying to find some links, but my POS computer is not handling you tube very well today.)   Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... Snidget 07-24-08 1    RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... qwertypie 07-24-08 2  RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... Glow 07-24-08 3    RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... qwertypie 07-24-08 4        RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... Glow 07-24-08 5            RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... qwertypie 07-24-08 6  some links qwertypie 07-24-08 7    RE: some links kp santos 07-24-08 10        RE: some links qwertypie 07-24-08 11        RE: some links qwertypie 07-25-08 12            RE: some links Snidget 07-25-08 13                RE: some links qwertypie 07-25-08 15                    RE: some links kp santos 07-25-08 16                        RE: some links qwertypie 07-26-08 21            RE: some links Glow 07-25-08 14  RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... Sagebrush Dan 07-24-08 8    RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... qwertypie 07-24-08 9  My favorite Argentine Tango perform... Sagebrush Dan 07-25-08 17    RE: My favorite Argentine Tango per... qwertypie 07-25-08 18        RE: My favorite Argentine Tango per... Sagebrush Dan 07-25-08 19  RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you e... Ahtumbreez 07-25-08 20

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 10:35 AM (EST) 1. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" There, there, it's not like you need that liver anyway. If you haven't tried the kick nigel game I made and posted in the ECUT from last night go try it. I think it might be therapeutic for you.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 10:52 AM (EST) 2. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" Hey -- Perfect kick. You are right -- it is cathartic.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Glow 14353 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 11:22 AM (EST) 3. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" whew! I thought it was just me and my bias. A ho's (and Snidge's) work is never done.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 01:42 PM (EST) 4. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" And generally I like Dmitry's work which is why I was so disappointed he would agree to choreograph this without the basic background. It feels like he watched a bunch of youtube videos, strung a bunch of tricks together and presented that as Argentine tango. If they can't get decent choreographer I would rather they pull Argentine tango from their line up. Just think, if they could get a couple who knew their stuff to choreograph it, they could perform on the results show and blow everyone away.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Glow 14353 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 02:15 PM (EST) 5. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" Do you think that maybe Mr. Gorgeous had to dumb down the choreography? Maybe? I don't know anything about what is technically an Argentine Tango (only what you tell us) but I do know that this was sloppy and all over the place.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 02:39 PM (EST) 6. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" Perhaps. JMHO, but it looked like Mr. HotStuff could show the moves, but does not have the theory behind them or the ability to break down the mechanics (I would hope that experienced dancers like Chelsie and Joshua would be able to execute the moves better if they were explained to them. ) SIGH. I appreicate when the choreographers are shown dancing (like Jean Marc and France or that country western couple where she looked like she was pregnant with quintuplets and could still do the spins). Then we can see how the dance is supposed to look and also get a small sense how competent they are.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 03:50 PM (EST) 7. "some links" OK, I found some youtube links that I can't open (stupid computer), so am I going from memory here. If I recall correctly these are of Gustavo Naveira at some of his teaching workshops. This was totally improvised, all lead and follow and moves you would do at a social (provided you had the room). I will try and find some links to stage performance argentine tango http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQYgP1dO_Dg&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogjVvYOPyk4&feature=related   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kp santos 2 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson" 07-24-08, 05:32 PM (EST) 10. "RE: some links" I am a voyeur (lurker?), so excuse me. I am puzzled by your apparent passion for the Argentine Tango when it (the AT) has very little passion, even when executed beautifully. Perhaps, the "terse" footwork, and dramaless (word?) posture of the dancers is the reason the choreographers don't adhere strictly to the technical aspects of the dance. Given that it is often performed in a cabaret setting, with cabaret - like music (circa Edith Piaf/Marlene Dietrich), and footwork with precision steps that allow room for utterly 0 showmanship, I would humbly suggest that it is not very entertaining. I have seen armies march with the same precision. Lackluster is a word that comes to mind. I wonder why it is even included in the program.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 06:22 PM (EST) 11. "RE: some links" Wow KP, quite a first post. I'll be back later tonight to respond -- I have company coming over in less than an hour and the house is a wreck. I wonder too, why they include it in the program Oh, BTW, Welcome to the boards!!!!!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-25-08, 03:09 AM (EST) 12. "RE: some links" LAST EDITED ON 07-25-08 AT 10:09 AM (EST) ETA: Supposedly, I should warn people to bring water and snacks and get a comfy chair Wow, KP, I don't even know where to begin. First of all, I am irked that they called these routines "Argentine Tango". They are not, and it seriously reduces the judges and show's credibility that they couldn't give a rat's ##### about the authenticity. If they had called the routines "Cabaret done in the Argentine Tango style", I would grumble a little but accept this (actually, I think many of the waltzes done on this show should be called "Cabaret done to 3/4 time music", but I digress). Then we could concentrate on the beauty of the movement, transitions and balance as they move from pose to lift to pose. Second, they don't even try to get anyone knowledgeable about the tango or even dynamic movement. When Mr. Qwerty and I were struggling with our first routine (before he was even Mr. Qwerty) and I will admit, we were trying to learn from videos, the owner of Arthur Murray's came over and said -- "I don't know about Argentine Tango, but I know about movement -- here is what I see happening" And he was right. He was able to help us execute the "figures" even though he had never seen them before, but he had a superior knowledge of movement in partnership. A major issue I have with these routines (excluding the whether or not it is argentine tango) is that the transitions are ackward, the dancers don't have their balance and their body lines are terrible. A qualified choreographer (in almost any genre IMO) would be all over the dancers trying to polish and refine the routine and make it simpler to execute. As a quick example, if you watch Chelsie kick her leg backwards, she arches her back and pulls on her partner (Allison did the same thing). This makes it near impossible for the man to dance as he is fighting to keep his own balance. The kicks and flicks the judges so rave about are supposed to be caused by a change in momentum (or at least guided by it) not because the person decided -- OK at this moment I must kick my leg in the air independently of what the rest of my body is doing. So I think I understand your comment about not adhering strictly to the technical aspects of the dance, but I would submit that Nigel & Co care so little about the tango that they get anyone with a little dance background and a pulse to choreograph and teach it. Every other dance seems to get someone with a pedigree or street cred to teach it, except argentine tango. Maybe Nigel's ex-girlfriend secretly ran off with the tango instructor and he's been subconsciously trying to sabotage the tango ever since. I dunno. And don't even get me started about his inane, insulting comments (I think JBUG already treated me with an emoticon of a dead horse getting beaten. Or if she hasn't, she should have) Now about my passion (obsession?) about argentine tango. We laugh and say the argentine tango is like a virus that infects about 1 in 10 000. And you can never tell who is susceptible or who is immune. And once infected, you become a zealot and find it hard to understand why everyone doesn't see or feel you do. From my observations, tango is attractive to older people, us old farts over 25, (younger ones prefer life affirming display dances like salsa) or people that have experienced Deep Sorrow. A break up, betrayal, illness, death or other heart rending loss. Tango was born in the slums out of loneliness, desperation and despair. Yes it was in the brothels, but purely my opinion wasn't just about sleazy sex for hire. For me, it is not about the precision of movement, it is about intimacy, a total communication/connection with someone through dance without saying a single word. You can become exquisitively aware of your partner, which foot he or she has their weight on, where their centre of balance is. I love to dance with my eyes closed and transcend. One of my most memorable dances was when we were first starting out. It was in Buenos Aires, a small club and I danced with a man a little taller than me, 50 pounds heavier and probably 50 years older. I spoke only 3 phrases of spanish, he spoke even less english, but during those 3 songs we connected and moved as one. It was intoxicating and I was hooked. For me, at least, the tango is about intimacy, not necessarily about torrid sex. And it is about community. I know I can walk into any city in the world, find a milonga (dance) and start to become part of that community (OK, I will admit that some cities are friendlier than others). We have very good friends we met through tango world wide. And we are there for each other. I think I understand your comment about the 1940s music. We have rabid tango people here that feel anything written after the golden age of tango (late 40s, early 50s) just doesn't count. I like the music, but not to the extent the purists do. Again, it must be a virus thing. There is new tango music being written (like gotan project) which is techno, which of course the purists hate. I step on toes because I think that any music that evokes deep emotion is a tango. (We've done a routine to Evanescence "My Immortal". There was gnashing of teeth with that one ) I guess we will agree to disagree on the showmanship value of the footwork. (I am assuming you have also seen it live?). I really, really value in argentine tango and the ballroom/latin dances if the couple is dancing in partnership. It is a totally different skill set than dancing alone because you have to have your own balance and shared balance as you move together. I think many of the routines are light on this, because the dancers (even tho' highly trained in their discipline) cannot do this competently. Part of the problem with Argentine tango is the camera work is shoddy. They focus on the faces, but there is some *crazy* unwritten rule that the tango dancers faces must be stern and show no emotion. Another rule I reject. People watching dancers want to know what to feel, want to be swept away in the dance and the best way to do this is to let them know by the emotions playing on your face. It is the path to soul revelation. But many would disagree with me. Each to his own. I guess I should sign off for now, it is late and my eyes are getting bleary (and I could write more about the double edged sword that is Forever Tango and other tango shows, etc.) I hope I answered your question. Wow, aren't you glad you asked?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-25-08, 05:47 AM (EST) 13. "RE: some links" Thanks for the tango discussion, but you might put a warning about bringing water and snacks next time.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-25-08, 10:12 AM (EST) 15. "RE: some links" OOPS. Yeah, longer than some summaries, I know. I just figured that it would be pretty obvious it was going to be long-winded, when someone asked me why I loved the tango   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kp santos 2 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson" 07-25-08, 11:51 AM (EST) 16. "RE: some links" Without passion, our lives would be like dry toast. I think it is difficult to communicate feelings via the written word, and appreciate the time it took you to express your commitment to the elevation of the art rather than the entertainment value. I'm glad I asked you.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-26-08, 10:54 AM (EST) 21. "RE: some links" LAST EDITED ON 07-26-08 AT 04:51 PM (EST) I will keep this short (I promise!) I don't think that art and entertainment value are mutually exclusive. I love dancing the tango socially and I love performing it. I think it can tell a story, it can illuminate the human condition. I am thrilled hip-hop is being stretched beyond the gangsta and booty call and I believe AT should do that too. But what they show on SYTYCD is akin to me giving my four-year old daughter a paint by numbers picture of the Mona Lisa (with only 6 colours) and then passing it off as the real thing. Peace! I hope you stick around. ETA that dang it slippery 'o'   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Glow 14353 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-25-08, 08:10 AM (EST) 14. "RE: some links" Thank you, qwerty! That was informative and interesting to read. I? am glad KP asked.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Sagebrush Dan 9824 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 03:53 PM (EST) 8. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" There, there, dear. Just have a glass of Jack Daniels and a cigarette.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-24-08, 04:40 PM (EST) 9. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" Everything I am thinking of saying to you, my sweet love, would just get ####### by the mods   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Sagebrush Dan 9824 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-25-08, 01:41 PM (EST) 17. "My favorite Argentine Tango performance"   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-25-08, 02:26 PM (EST) 18. "RE: My favorite Argentine Tango performance" That is just so wrong on so many levels (and nothing to do with the fact two dudes are dancing together)   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Sagebrush Dan 9824 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-25-08, 06:24 PM (EST) 19. "RE: My favorite Argentine Tango performance" Actually, the picture's been cropped. The booze and cigarettes are just off to their left, so that fixes it, right? *ducks*   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ahtumbreez 10456 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 07-25-08, 06:57 PM (EST) 20. "RE: RANT ALERT: Nigel -- have you ever heard of google?" So this is what they warned me about! Agman took me to the islands   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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