|
|
|
|
PLEASE NOTE: The Reality TV World Message Boards are filled with desperate
attention-seekers pretending to be one big happy PG/PG13-rated family. Don't
be fooled. Trying to get everyone to agree with you is like herding cats,
but intolerance for other viewpoints is NOT welcome and respect for other
posters IS required at all times. Jump in and play, and you'll soon find out
how easy it is to fit in, but save your drama for your mama. All members are
encouraged to read the
complete guidelines.
As entertainment critic Roger
Ebert once said, "If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue
with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way."
|
|
|
"Polls: Kerry won debate!!"
subman 1546 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
|
10-01-04, 10:46 AM (EST)
 
  |
|
"Polls: Kerry won debate!!" |
LAST EDITED ON 10-01-04 AT 11:02 AM (EST)Post-Debate Polls Favor Kerry 1 hour, 5 minutes ago Top Stories - AP
By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent CORAL GABLES, Fla. - President Bush (news - web sites) and Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) rushed back to the campaign trail Friday to try to convince voters they had won their debate over foreign policy and to continue the argument over whether going to war in Iraq (news - web sites) had made the nation safer. Three post-debate polls suggested voters who watched the policy-driven confrontation Thursday night were impressed by Kerry, with most of those surveyed saying he did better than Bush. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20041001/ap_on_el_pr/debate_rdp_32
 Engineered by Gothmog, 2004
"Both the man of science and the man of action live always at the edge of mystery, surrounded by it."
--J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
Top |
| |
 |
IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 10:52 AM (EST)
|
|
3. "But first..." |
... the feats of strength!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 11:59 AM (EST)
|
|
14. "RE: Polls: Kerry won debate!!" |
No, no, that was acceptance. Sheesh.What is this, loser's remorse? Uhm...you do know which side I'm on, right? 
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
PagongRatEater 12996 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 10:59 AM (EST)
|
|
4. "RE: Polls: Kerry won debate!!" |
Isn't it sad that the winner was judged more on presentation and image than content? Lincoln would never have gotten elected today. No question that Kerry had the smoother delivery and better 'image', but was his content specifically any better? Not at all - he lied and contradicted himself so many times it was ridiculous. Now shame on Bush for not calling him on it, but when he said 'our troops need body armor' I nearly spit my drink out!! This from the guy who voted AGAINST funds for the body armor?!?Some other choice Kerry lies: NYC Subways shut down - not true
No military advisers in African Union - also false
Treblinka Square - a Nazi death camp, not KGB HQ
Never called the Pres a liar - also not true http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html
http://www.rnc.org/RNCResearch/Read.aspx?ID=4772 He also had the gall to say that Iraq was a distraction, a collosal error and then with the same breath said he was committed to winning, soldiers WEREN'T dying for a 'mistake', and Sadam WAS a threat. I'll give him this - the guy is a GREAT liar. (Not to mention the flat out lie he told on GMA about the 'voted for before voted against' comment I posted about yesterday)
I wish I had the confidence that the American people could see through the smooth veneer to the empty shell underneath, but I've never been suprised by the overwhelming intellect of people in masses.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
Drive My Car 20045 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 03:56 PM (EST)
|
|
47. "RE: Polls: Kerry won debate!!" |
The True, she witty.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ExInterper 3093 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
|
10-01-04, 07:45 PM (EST)
|
|
77. "RE: Polls: Kerry won debate!!" |
LAST EDITED ON 10-01-04 AT 07:46 PM (EST)See, I disagree. Surprised?  Well, not about not giving anything. I agree with that part. It seemed like he ran out of things to say after the first 30 minutes, since he kept repeating the same points and virtually the same words over and over again. At that point? I start hammering him for not answering the question. Moreover, when he took credit for starting the Dept. of Homeland Security, I hammer the fact that it took immense public and political pressure for him to sign it. Gee, wouldn't that mean he flip-flopped for political gain? Hmmm.... And I think Bush is a better debater than you give him credit for. He doesn't get bogged down in details, his strength is in speaking "straighforwardly." In a formalistic debate that will get you killed, but in a political debate that's what you want. Until last night, he won every political debate he had ever performed in. But last night? He seemed tired and unprepared. It's like he had about 1/4 of the talking points he needed to fill the 90 minutes. He broke PR Rule #1: no matter how pissed or irritated you get, DON'T SHOW IT. It sunk Gore in the last debates, and those eye rolls are probably going to come back to haunt him in the same way they haunted Gore. Since he saw it up close and personal the last election, he should have known better. And though Kerry did make some mistakes (I cringed a couple of times especially when he acted like Bin Laden is still in Afganistan), Bush made the unbelievable mistake of saying "the enemy attacked us" when talking about why we went to war with Iraq, something that Kerry called him out on, which led to the rather snippy "Of course I know Osama Bin Laden attacked us." Look, Kerry had no other option BUT to win this debate. All Bush had to do is not to lose. Kerry succeeded and Bush failed. And now Bush has to completely reevaluate his debate strategy for the town hall meeting, cause last night? Wasn't working.  Mmmm...blog....
And while Bush may have never tried out for the debate team, let us not forget that he took classes with the same professor at Yale as Kerry. And he clearly had in the past applied what he had learned. So what was up with him last night?
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
I_AM_HE 6123 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 09:18 PM (EST)
|
|
79. "RE: Polls: Kerry won debate!!" |
LAST EDITED ON 10-01-04 AT 09:33 PM (EST)I'm not saying Bush is a bad debater - as you said, he's simply not "forensic" If you judge it on those terms, yeah Kerry won. But as you said, that's not all a political debate is about. His presentation was better dressed, but no matter how nicely you dress...horsehockey...it's still horsehockey. And that's why I say the debate is a draw for all intents and purposes. It's not what Bush wanted, but it wasn't enough for Kerry, either. I wouldn't say Bush failed or that Kerry succeeded by your own criteria. I think they succeeded and failed in equal measure (but different ways), which along with the mostly civil tone, was what I found interesting about the evening. And a draw is pretty much how the media has played it, when they could have (and I expected them too) play to Kerry's package and the snap polls and declare Kerry a big winner. The fact that they haven't tells me they see it (or at least see that the people see it) the same way I do. ETA 2 things. 1) to make my second paragraph more clear, the polls that have Kerry wining also say they didn't change any minds. That's what I mean when I say Kerry wins the forensics points, but the debate was a draw. 2) How is saying the enemy attacked us a "mistake"? He wasn't saying Iraq attacked us. He was saying 9/11 necessarily changed the way we look at and react to terrorism. I really don't understand why that is so hard for Bush-haters to grasp. Except that I don't really think it's so hard for them to grasp: they just hope that enough people are stupid enough to not be able to grasp it. I think Bush thinks the American people are smarter than they are, and didn't feel the need to line by line refute Kerry's sophistry. I think he was unprepared for the minutae, instead looking at the big picture and believing what is clear to him should be clear to everyone else. This caused him not to articulate fully his case which is simple and understandable. Which again, I think is a mistake, but not one that will ultimately hurt him much, as the campaigns and the 24-hour news cycle eventually dissect Kerry's bewildering comments. 
|
|
|
Top |
| |
SurvivaBear 2634 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson"
|
10-01-04, 11:16 AM (EST)
|
|
9. "Style over substance?" |
Most commentators I saw last night pronounced it was a draw. For me, I was not struck by the clear differences but rather the glaring similarities in the candidates positions. The primary difference seemed to be the approach they would take. Kerry has a more cautious, collaborative approach whereas Bush is a more decisive, "never-look-back" leader. As I saw it-
On Iraq (current situation): essentially the same, "we will come home when we win"
On national safety priorities: same, WMD's/nukes
On the Sudan: same, "It's a bad thing . . ." *crickets*
On supporting the troops: same, "Yes, I definitely support them." I think of the show The Apprentice. As we have seen, both leadership styles can succeed or fail, depending on the implementation. Both candidates are playing it very safe. I honestly do not think these debates will sway many either way.  A PM Halloween creation! Beware the Bear! BOO!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
SurvivaBear 2634 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson"
|
10-01-04, 04:00 PM (EST)
|
|
48. "Great point Ginger" |
I always thought it was bad form to show up wearing the same dress. Didn't they have their fashion coordinators compare notes?
A PM Halloween creation! Beware the Bear! BOO!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
HobbsofMI 16065 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 12:14 PM (EST)
 |
|
16. "RE: Polls: Kerry won debate!!" |
Who cares who won the debate....who's going to win in Nov. 2nd is more important. So the only thing that mattered about last night is how it effects independent voters in the battle ground states, like here in Michigan. Me....still independent and not knowing who I'm voting for so it did me no good. DW, who can't vote, says we need better looking leaders, talk better, and stop repeating themselves. 
My name is Hobbs of MI and I approve this message!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 12:39 PM (EST)
|
|
24. "Call it..." |
... tough love
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 12:48 PM (EST)
 |
|
29. "RE: Call it..." |
I wouldn't call it a GREAT pumpkin... it was okay, though. Nothing like a Renault.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
SurvivaBear 2634 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson"
|
10-01-04, 04:45 PM (EST)
|
|
56. "*snort*" |
^
|
That was funny. Even I was disturbed by his pronunciation of Vladimir. Why didn't he just call him Vladdy.
A PM Halloween creation! Beware the Bear! BOO!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 04:46 PM (EST)
|
|
57. "RE: People saw what they wanted to see" |
LAST EDITED ON 10-01-04 AT 04:50 PM (EST)
Both ABC and CBS did an immediate poll last nite and they both showed Kerry the winner (45-36 on ABC and 44-26 (i think) on CBS)
The ABC poll was of 534 adults, 35% Reps. 35% Dem rest Ind. and it was taken between 10:30 EDT and about 10:50 pm when they showed the results. I find it very interesting that Reps. (not you Bear , you know who you are...) were spewing off poll numbers after the RNC but now, no poll numbers??? what gives??? you don't like the numbers, you don't post them.....hmmmmmm??? 
Remember it's one thing to be consistent, but if you're consistently wrong....
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
HobbsofMI 16065 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 08:04 PM (EST)
|
|
78. "RE: speaking of polls" |
Would you have thought that Bush should have wiped the floor with Kerry on a debate on Iraq and terrorism? So the fact that they both moved up only 1 point a major victory for Kerry.So going into domestic issues debate you would think this is were Kerry was going to make his biggest move so now Bush is going to have to step it up or the undecided will go over to Kerry. Bush has got to tell us what his plan is because we know Kerry will. PRE don’t deny that his performance has you worried if he does it again. One thing that hit me today is that his dad was lambasted for going fishing and not looking like he wanted another term and he brings up he went fishing. What were they thinking by saying this? Still indepentdent here and waiting on the other debates.
My name is Hobbs of MI and I approve this message!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Devious Weasel 18756 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 04:50 PM (EST)
|
|
58. "Here Ya Go" |
The three polls:ABC:
Kerry 45
Bush 36 CBS:
Kerry 43
Bush 28 Gallup:
Kerry 53
Bush 37 
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
SurvivaBear 2634 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson"
|
10-01-04, 04:58 PM (EST)
|
|
62. "Thanks" |
Emy wanted some numbers posted, so I thought I would post this quote from the ABC article:
As is customary, the debate did not immediately change many minds. Bush's support was 50 percent among viewers before the debate, and 51 percent after it; Kerry's, 46 percent before, 47 percent after.
A PM Halloween creation! Beware the Bear! BOO!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
SurvivaBear 2634 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson"
|
10-01-04, 05:06 PM (EST)
|
|
67. "Great minds . . ." |
vote for winners!
A PM Halloween creation! Beware the Bear! BOO!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 06:59 PM (EST)
|
|
76. "RE: People saw what they wanted to see" |
And I have spoken to 6 people today who have changed who they are voting for based on the debate. All of them changed from Bush to Kerry because Bush seemed so ... not in command.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
seahorse 14337 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-01-04, 05:09 PM (EST)
|
|
69. "RE: Polls: Kerry won debate!!" |
Swoop
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-02-04, 04:35 PM (EST)
|
|
82. "The sound of..." |
... spinning.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
PagongRatEater 12996 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-02-04, 04:37 PM (EST)
|
|
83. "RE: The sound of..." |
LAST EDITED ON 10-02-04 AT 04:38 PM (EST)Just cause Kerry 'won' (an opinion that some Republicans I know hold), doesn't mean he improved his standing. If Bush voters say Kerry won, it doesn't change the race at all. The numbers are the numbers.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-02-04, 05:09 PM (EST)
|
|
84. "whizzzzzzz..." |
whirrrrrrr....
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
PagongRatEater 12996 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-03-04, 03:36 AM (EST)
|
|
89. "RE: the numbers" |
I for one was not happy about those particular numbers but they are at the outside of the previous poll's margin of error, so it could be meaningless or just a temporary bounce. As more numbers come out next week (I particularly follow the daily Rasmussen poll with 3000 person rolling sample), we will certainly get a better idea. At this point this 'bounce' seems fairly consistent with the convention bounce Kerry got - minor and (perhaps) temporary.But of course, if all the polls out next week show the same I'll be concerned...somewhat. The fact of the matter is that currently Bush has a strong electoral advantage because he is competitive or leading in MANY states that went for Gore in 2000 (MI, PA, NJ, WI, MD, IA, NM, MN, WA, OR and ME) but Kerry is competitive in few 'red' states (OH, FL, CO and NH). This could change with a big shift in popular sentiment, but Kerry has a tougher road to the White House today than Bush does. I think any kind of change in the horse race will be more indicative of Kerry solidifying the leaners in his base than winning Bush voters away and I think that Bush's recent 'lead' has been largely due to him closing the gap in states he won't win. That being said, a small change could be enough for Kerry to carry MN, NJ, MI, MD and PA, but that is not enough. Bush could lose all of those and still win handily. Kerry still has a very tough road electorally and in a week or so we will see if THAT has fundamentally changed.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-04-04, 06:07 AM (EST)
|
|
97. "RE: the numbers" |
When you tell me Bush is competitive in Maryland I know you're funning me.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
TeamJoisey 3558 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
|
10-02-04, 10:02 PM (EST)
|
|
86. "RE: The sound of..." |
PRE: Is this confidence, or Kool-Aid? People will spend a week talking about Bush's weak performance in the debate. That's going to affect the undecided voters, Even if it doesn't move a particular poll. Face it... we just saw the momentum shift. Again.
It's going to be an interesting month. Let's just hope election night isn't an "interesting month" this time around.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
SherpaDave 8326 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-02-04, 10:17 PM (EST)
|
|
87. "RE: Poll on post debate impact" |
One thing those numbers don't show is where the people who changed their minds came from. Did the 3% for Kerry come from Bush or undecided? What mixture? Ditto those for Bush and those now undecided.Assuming, for example, that the polls beforehand were 45/45/10 (not true, I know, just using this as an example)... Best case for Kerry: 3% come from Bush to Kerry, 2% come from Undecided to Bush, 1% comes from Bush to undecided. New numbers: Kerry 48/Bush 43/Undecided 9. Best case for Bush: 3% come from undecided to Kerry, 2% come from Kerry to Bush, 1% comes from Kerry to undecided. New numbers: Bush 47/Kerry 45/Undecided 8. So there's the potential for a swing between 5% in Kerry's favor and 2% in Bush's favor possible in the way they've presented the numbers. I suspect it's something more like a 1-2% Kerry gain overall, but your statement that it's the numbers (below), while true, is also hazy. Numbers can be manipulated all sorts of ways. My theory on the numbers following this first debate has a couple parts: 1) we haven't seen the full effects of this debate yet--last year, Gore was declared the overwhelming winner in the first debate, but lost ground as the week progressed and the debate was picked apart more and more (his eye-rolling, woodenness, etc. caught up with him); it's nearly impossible to guess how this debate will ultimately be seen (although I've not seen much shift yet). 2) And this is much more guesswork on my part, but... I think because foreign policy has been such a huge part of the campaigns thus far that most people who were going to vote based on foreign policy were already out of the Undecided column before the debate. The numbers not changing much would seem to agree with that. We may see far more people moving off the fence following the debate on domestic policy. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see. The more I think back over the debate, the more I think it was one of the more interesting ones I've ever seen. In spite of Dubya appearing like an irritable chimp, there were a few things I pulled out of the debate that I hadn't known before, primarily his work thus far on North Korea and Iran.   
Untrue Crimes † SmokeLong Quarterly
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-03-04, 00:45 AM (EST)
|
|
88. "to be fair..." |
Much of the "Kerry won" sentiment is simply drawn from a "Bush definitely lost" sentiment. While there was difference in substance (as such) presented by both men, substance largely plays to opinion. Kerry won on substance simply by taking the opportunity to debunk the opposition's portrayals of him, scoring on making the point that he is consistant (in his own view) but with key differences in beliefs with Bush. But Kerry didn't knock one out of the park by any means, the President went down swinging when he had one of his best issues being lobbed his way.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-03-04, 11:32 PM (EST)
|
|
92. "horse race" |
The numbers have entered the realm of a statistical dead heat, which is going to sell a lot of newspapers.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-03-04, 11:37 PM (EST)
|
|
94. "RE: horse race" |
My theory is Bush got suckered by the orange Kerry ploy.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
10-03-04, 11:42 PM (EST)
|
|
96. "RE: horse race" |
Naw, but I would have had to use a lot of my prep time trying to learn to stifle fits of hysteria.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
|
|
Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic
Bookmark this topic (Registered users only)
uh-oh. 
