The Amazing Race   American Idol   The Apprentice   The Bachelor   The Bachelorette   Big Brother   The Biggest Loser
Dancing with the Stars   So You Think You Can Dance   Survivor   Top Model   The Voice   The X Factor       Reality TV World
   
Reality TV World Message Board Forums
PLEASE NOTE: The Reality TV World Message Boards are filled with desperate attention-seekers pretending to be one big happy PG/PG13-rated family. Don't be fooled. Trying to get everyone to agree with you is like herding cats, but intolerance for other viewpoints is NOT welcome and respect for other posters IS required at all times. Jump in and play, and you'll soon find out how easy it is to fit in, but save your drama for your mama. All members are encouraged to read the complete guidelines. As entertainment critic Roger Ebert once said, "If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way."
"Baseball Hall Of Fame 2014: No One Gets In, Year #2."
Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic
Bookmark this topic (Registered users only)
 
Previous Topic | Next Topic 
Conferences Off-Topic Sports Forum (Protected)
Original message

Estee 55897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-27-13, 12:07 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Estee Click to send private message to Estee Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
"Baseball Hall Of Fame 2014: No One Gets In, Year #2."
Honestly, that's what I'm expecting. The same crop of writers who declared that everyone since Babe Ruth was on steroids and thus they would never submit any marked ballot at all ever again are still in the voting pool. Factor in for what that does to the percentages, add in the I Never Vote For First-Years crowd, and then go with the No One Left Totally Agrees On Anyone group -- it all adds up to a year without a writer-vote produced ceremony. Again. And the pattern will continue until morale vanishes or the current voting generation completely goes away.

It's a pity, really. There are people on this ballot who have earned the Hall, and that includes some of those there for the first time.

But it's not as if performance matters in any way.

So here's the very useless list. Try to figure out who on it will never be apologized to.

Returning, with prior percentage of vote marked:

Craig Biggio (68.2)
Jack Morris (67.7: final year)
Jeff Bagwell (59.6)
Mike Piazza (57.8)
Tim Raines (52.2)
Lee Smith (47.8)
Curt Schilling (38.8)
Roger Clemens (37.6)
Barry Bonds (36.2)
Edgar Martinez (35.9)
Alan Trammell (33.6)
Larry Walker (21.6)
Fred McGriff (20.7)
Mark McGwire (16.9)
Don Mattingly (13.2)
Sammy Sosa (12.5)
Rafael Palmeiro (8.8)

First-years:

(Too Bad, So Sad division)

Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas

(Would normally hang around, but zero is zero)

Jeff Kent
Mike Mussina

(They Also Served)


Moises Alou
Armando Benitez
Sean Casey
Paul Lo Duca
Ray Durham
Eric Gagne
Luis Gonzalez
Jacque Jones
Todd Jones
Hideo Nomo
Kenny Rogers
Richie Sexson
J.T. Snow
Mike Timlin

I'm not marking my votes this year. Why bother?

Official emptiness will be announced January 9th.

  Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 My ballot PepeLePew13 11-27-13 1
 RE: Baseball Hall Of Fame 2014: No... kingfish 11-27-13 2
 My 1/50 of a dollar's worth Molaholic 11-27-13 3
 Votes AyaK 11-29-13 4
   RE: Votes PepeLePew13 11-29-13 5
 RE: Baseball Hall Of Fame 2014: No... aethelstan 12-21-13 6
 Maddux accused of steroid use. Estee 01-07-14 7
   RE: Maddux accused of steroid use. AyaK 01-07-14 8
       RE: Maddux accused of steroid use. Estee 01-08-14 11
 Either 3 or 4 will make it AyaK 01-08-14 9
   RE: Either 3 or 4 will make it Estee 01-08-14 10
   RE: Either 3 or 4 will make it PepeLePew13 01-08-14 12
   RE: Either 3 or 4 will make it PepeLePew13 01-08-14 13
       RE: Either 3 or 4 will make it aethelstan 01-08-14 16
       Actual results AyaK 01-08-14 18
           One encouraging note. . . AyaK 01-08-14 19
               RE: One encouraging note. . . PepeLePew13 01-08-14 20
                   RE: One encouraging note. . . aethelstan 01-09-14 21
   It's 3 aethelstan 01-08-14 15
 The Baseball Hall Of Fame inducts: Estee 01-08-14 14
   RE: The Baseball Hall Of Fame induc... Max Headroom 01-08-14 17
 Bobby V. PepeLePew13 01-09-14 22

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Messages in this topic

PepeLePew13 24967 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-27-13, 12:14 PM (EST)
Click to EMail PepeLePew13 Click to send private message to PepeLePew13 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
1. "My ballot"
LAST EDITED ON 11-27-13 AT 12:15 PM (EST)

Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
Frank Thomas
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
Jeff Kent
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines


Who I think will actually get in with the 75%:
Maddux - absolute lock
Glavine - decent bet
Thomas - decent bet
Biggio - decent bet

Other possibles for this year, but with considerably lower chances of getting in other than the four I already mentioned:
Piazza
Bagwell (he's just like Thomas in many ways, but Thomas has the better counting stats that the voters like to see - Bagwell *will not* get in before Thomas)

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kingfish 16665 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-27-13, 12:56 PM (EST)
Click to EMail kingfish Click to send private message to kingfish Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
2. "RE: Baseball Hall Of Fame 2014: No One Gets In, Year #2."
LAST EDITED ON 11-27-13 AT 01:05 PM (EST)

I agree. This is a pointless exercise, for all the reasons you give.

Plus some.

The boneheaded voters from last year are still there this year, so why should anything be different? I vote that we reform the system, apparently sports writers aren’t the sports mavens that they were supposed to be. And of course, it’s silly to let living HoF members vote, the younger players will never live up to their standards.

Then maybe we can take the momentum to congress. But first things first.

First useless thing I do today, make a list of who I think ought to get in:

(First, clear the backlog)

Craig Biggio
Jack Morris
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Curt Schilling
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Larry Walker
Mark McGwire

(Steroid use - or alleged but never proven steroid use - be damned, these are all great players with HoF careers).

Then add the obvious first time HoFers. They had HoF careers, why make them wait?

Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas

The rest: Undecided. I suppose they can wait a year at least.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Molaholic 8685 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-27-13, 03:24 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Molaholic Click to send private message to Molaholic Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
3. "My 1/50 of a dollar's worth"
You're right -- another lean year.

I still think Biggio has a decent shot, as well as Maddux. Maybe another year will get them the prize.

The rest -- it would be a big surprise.

And it looks like Mike Piazza has actually launched a campaign. Sad. Very sad.

Another Agman masterpiece (2011)

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AyaK 10294 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-29-13, 02:41 AM (EST)
Click to EMail AyaK Click to send private message to AyaK Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
4. "Votes"
Too bad I'm not in the BBWA. Here's my ballot.

1. Greg Maddux. Absolute lock.
2. Craig Biggio. I presume that the peeps who voted for him last year will do so again.
3. Tom Glavine. His odds are helped immeasurabky by being on the same ballot with Maddux.
4. Frank Thomas.
5. Jeff Bagwell. I think we all know that he took steroids, but he doesn't bother me for some reason.
6. Tim Raines. Discussed last year.
7. Larry Walker. Amazing to me that he draws so little support.
8. Mike Piazza. Maybe next year.
9. Edgar Martinez. Someday there will be a DH in the Hall, but not this year.
10. Alan Trammell. Yes, he hung on too long, but so did Ted Simmons, and I'm supporting him too.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PepeLePew13 24967 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-29-13, 07:14 PM (EST)
Click to EMail PepeLePew13 Click to send private message to PepeLePew13 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
5. "RE: Votes"
LAST EDITED ON 12-01-13 AT 02:42 AM (EST)


Once again, I'm being a total homer and making my now-annual gripe about how if Jim Rice is in the Hall, then Larry Walker definitely belongs. If Andre Dawson is in, then Larry Walker belongs.

There is no question that Walker's home-road splits are over the top:

Home: .320/.374/.546
Road: .277/.330/.459

But still … oh, wait, those aren't Larry Walker's home-road splits. Those are Jim Rice's. Sorry.

Home: .348/.431/.637
Road: .278/.370/.495

Ah, right, those are Walker's splits. But since those are just super-sized versions of Jim Rice's splits anyway -- and Rice just got voted into the Hall of Fame -- I don't think they are disqualifiers. Walker was a terrific all-around player who stood out in a crazy offensive era.

The Hall should always have room for a guy who is a seven-time Gold Glove winner, three-time batting champion, 16th all-time in OPS, and is one of only two (out of fifteen total in history) who has a career slash line of .300/.400/.500 who isn't in the Hall of Fame with the other being Edgar Martinez. It's ridiculous to penalize Walker for playing in Coors when other guys (Rice, Mel Ott, Jimmie Foxx, Chuck Klein, a few others) took advantage of hitter-friendly parks in Boston, Detroit, Brooklyn, the Polo Grounds, the Baker Bowl, etc. to get into the HOF. Not saying these guys shouldn't be in the HOF, actually, but saying that Walker belongs with these guys.

ETA to add the link where I took the above italicized info from - http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/40867256/

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aethelstan 4383 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"

12-21-13, 11:42 PM (EST)
Click to EMail aethelstan Click to send private message to aethelstan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
6. "RE: Baseball Hall Of Fame 2014: No One Gets In, Year #2."
I'm inclined to put a few more in than less.

My ballot includes:

Maddux
Glavine
Thomas
Walker
Raines
Biggio
Kent
McGriff (I notice that Fred's fallen off of Pepe's ballot now)
Trammell (I saw last year that I had changed my mind about him)
Piazza
Bagwell

Potentially but I already have more than 10 names in my list so far and can only vote for 10:
Martinez
Schilling

Surely, there are 2 or 3 getting in this year.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Estee 55897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-07-14, 07:40 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Estee Click to send private message to Estee Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
7. "Maddux accused of steroid use."
Voter Ken Gurnick decided that since he doesn't know who used, he would just treat them all the same way and assume they all did -- voting for none of them.

So there's the next fourteen years.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AyaK 10294 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-07-14, 08:34 PM (EST)
Click to EMail AyaK Click to send private message to AyaK Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
8. "RE: Maddux accused of steroid use."
There have always been nitwit voters like Ken Gurnick. No one has ever been elected to the Hall unanimously. Not even Babe Ruth (11 peeps left him off their ballots) or Willie Mays (23 ignored him).

The closest to unanimity was . . .


Ty Cobb (222 out of 226), left off 4 ballots, for a 98.23 percentage.

Because more people vote now, there are three people with a higher percentage than Cobb: Tom Seaver (425 of 430, -5); Nolan Ryan (491 of 497, -6), and Cal Ripken Jr. (537 of 545, -8). The only others to have been left off 10 or less ballots were Hank Aaron and George Brett (9) and Bob Feller (10).

There have always been dopes in the BBWAA.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Estee 55897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 01:27 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Estee Click to send private message to Estee Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
11. "RE: Maddux accused of steroid use."
The final punchline for Gurnick's ballot may be that he did cast one vote: Jack Morris. Because Mr. Morris (who does deserve that vote) was not part of the steroid era and is therefore presumably the last person he will ever vote for.

It has since been pointed out to him that the careers of Jack Morris and Jose Canceso overlapped, which would officially put everyone sharing that status at the very start of said 'steroid era'.

I'm guessing any Gurnick answer was emptier than his next year's vote.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AyaK 10294 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 01:05 PM (EST)
Click to EMail AyaK Click to send private message to AyaK Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
9. "Either 3 or 4 will make it"
LAST EDITED ON 01-08-14 AT 01:09 PM (EST)

Looks like Maddux, Glavine and Thomas are locks to get enough votes to get in, and it looks like Biggio may make it in his second try, although it looks to be close.

I wonder what role Piazza's back acne plays in his not getting more support. Because the real baseball writers were in the locker room with Piazza, they all know that he had it. Does that mean he was using 'roids? Not necessarily, but it's certainly way more common among 'roid users than non-users.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Estee 55897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 01:20 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Estee Click to send private message to Estee Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
10. "RE: Either 3 or 4 will make it"
One of our local radio hosts said he's had bouts of back acne throughout his life (just turned 60) and he's never taken a steroid. Some people just get ongoing skin problems.

I'm not proclaiming Piazza's total innocence. But I'll wait for more solid proof than acne issues -- and I don't think I have 75% company.

I'm also trying not to go into Gil Hodges mode. 'I know he should be in there. You know it. Everyone does -- except the voters.' But if he's not voted through by 2016, I will give up.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PepeLePew13 24967 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 01:49 PM (EST)
Click to EMail PepeLePew13 Click to send private message to PepeLePew13 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
12. "RE: Either 3 or 4 will make it"
Put Piazza in there - he belongs, period.

I have difficulty with the idea of keeping guys out based on things such as "well, he had back acne so maybe he's using." That's stupid. BALCO and Biogenesis links are one thing; guessing based on pictures of a guy being at a certain guy's house for a party or on things such as back acne is another story. What's next, refusing to vote for a guy because you saw cases of Red Bull in his locker?

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PepeLePew13 24967 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 02:21 PM (EST)
Click to EMail PepeLePew13 Click to send private message to PepeLePew13 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
13. "RE: Either 3 or 4 will make it"
This is from Baseball Think Factory, where they've got a 'gizmo' that collects revealed votes from around the country - at last count, about 36% of ballots have been revealed.

The 2014 HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo!

Updated: Jan.8 - 12:20 ~ 205 Full Ballots ~ (36.0%* of vote ~ based on last year) (*new pct. record!)

99.5 - Maddux
95.6 - Glavine
89.3 - F. Thomas
79.0 - Biggio
———————————
67.8 - Piazza
61.5 - Morris
56.1 - Bagwell
53.7 - Raines
42.4 - Bonds
41.0 - Clemens
36.6 - Schilling
26.3 - Mussina
25.4 - E. Martinez
23.9 - L. Smith
22.4 - Trammell
15.1 - Kent
11.7 - McGriff
10.7 - McGwire
8.3 - L. Walker
7.3 - S. Sosa
5.9 - R. Palmeiro
———————————
4.9 - Mattingly
0.5 - P. Rose (Write-In)

Surprised at the low support for Larry Walker, and also that Sosa is lower than McGwire. Sosa did almost everything better than McGwire and had more career HRs as well.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aethelstan 4383 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"

01-08-14, 03:07 PM (EST)
Click to EMail aethelstan Click to send private message to aethelstan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
16. "RE: Either 3 or 4 will make it"
I think the reason a number of guys have gone down is because there was a limit of 10 names on the ballot. If they allowed 15 or an unlimited number, then there'd be far fewer dropoffs.
Unfortunately for them, it doesn't get any better next year with Johnson, Martinez and Smoltz on the ballot.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AyaK 10294 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 07:54 PM (EST)
Click to EMail AyaK Click to send private message to AyaK Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
18. "Actual results"
Greg Maddux 555 97.2
Tom Glavine 525 91.9
Frank Thomas 478 83.7
*****************

Craig Biggio 427 74.8
Mike Piazza 355 62.2
Jack Morris* 351 61.5 (last year)
Jeff Bagwell* 310 54.3
Tim Raines* 263 46.1
Roger Clemens* 202 35.4
Barry Bonds* 198 34.7
Lee Smith* 171 29.9
Curt Schilling* 167 29.2
Edgar Martinez* 144 25.2
Alan Trammell* 119 20.8
Mike Mussina 116 20.3
Jeff Kent 87 15.2
Fred McGriff* 67 11.7
Mark McGwire* 63 11.0
Larry Walker* 58 10.2
Don Mattingly* 47 8.2
Sammy Sosa* 41 7.2

**MENDOZA LINE**
Rafael Palmeiro* 25 4.4
Moises Alou 6
Hideo Nomo 6
Luis Gonzalez 5
Eric Gagne 2
J.T. Snow 2
Armando Benitez, 1
Jacque Jones 1
Kenny Rogers 1

* = lost votes from previous year

So Biggio and Piazza look like they'll make it, sooner or later.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AyaK 10294 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 08:13 PM (EST)
Click to EMail AyaK Click to send private message to AyaK Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
19. "One encouraging note. . ."
. . . 50% of voters used all 10 slots this year. The steroid controversy has stirred up voters' interest.

Next year's ballot will include Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield, Nomar Garciaparra, Carlos Delgado.

Start planning next year's vote now!

Hmm, as of right now, I'd vote for the same seven people that I voted for this year who didn't get in: Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, Raines, E, Martinez, Trammell and Walker. I'd add R. Johnson and P. Martinez from the new guys. And, because I'm finally breaking down as we find out more and more about how widespread steroid use was . . . probably Schilling, for doing it without 'roids.

I'm still holding the line on Melonhead and Clemens -- at least for another year. But I'll probably support Melonhead and Clemens one of these days too, although maybe I'll wait until the powers that be in MLB let Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson in.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PepeLePew13 24967 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 09:29 PM (EST)
Click to EMail PepeLePew13 Click to send private message to PepeLePew13 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
20. "RE: One encouraging note. . ."
LAST EDITED ON 01-08-14 AT 09:34 PM (EST)

It's a pity that Smoltz didn't retire one year earlier. It would have been so perfect to have Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz all go in together.

I don't think any team has ever had 3 HOFers in one rotation for longer than, say, two years? Certainly not with any consistent length of time in their primes.

And if I'm going to predict next year's HOF class, I wouldn't be surprised to see four get in - Johnson and Pedro should be locks and Smoltz would be a decent bet to get in on the first try. I could also see Biggio getting in, especially with Morris off the ballot to reallocate some of the numbers to others.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aethelstan 4383 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"

01-09-14, 01:13 AM (EST)
Click to EMail aethelstan Click to send private message to aethelstan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
21. "RE: One encouraging note. . ."
I just read that there's a committee being formed to see whether they should allow voters to put more than 10 names. You gotta think that if 50% put 10 names on the ballot at least 25% would have wanted to put more than 10.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aethelstan 4383 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"

01-08-14, 03:01 PM (EST)
Click to EMail aethelstan Click to send private message to aethelstan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
15. "It's 3"
It's 3. Biggio misses by 2 votes or so.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Estee 55897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 03:01 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Estee Click to send private message to Estee Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
14. "The Baseball Hall Of Fame inducts:"
LAST EDITED ON 01-08-14 AT 03:08 PM (EST)

Greg Maddux 97.2% (And thus we define the ultra-idiot percentage of the voting pool. It is 2.8%.)
Tom Glavine
Frank Thomas

Unless, y'know, it turns out any of them ever used Clearasil.

Craig Biggio may feel free to demand a recount: he got 74.8% of the vote, which means there's a good chance he got knocked out on moronic protest votes. Mike Piazza went up from last year, but nowhere near enough: 62.2%. I suspect this may be his peak.

Jack Morris is now off the ballot. The various Veteran's Committees await.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Max Headroom 10067 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-08-14, 03:53 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Max%20Headroom Click to send private message to Max%20Headroom Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
17. "RE: The Baseball Hall Of Fame inducts:"
Woo hoo, my autographed Tom Glavine baseball just went up in value! Maddux and Glavine were shoo-ins in my eyes, Frank Thomas not so much, but I'm not a HOF voter.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PepeLePew13 24967 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

01-09-14, 06:32 PM (EST)
Click to EMail PepeLePew13 Click to send private message to PepeLePew13 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
22. "Bobby V."
LAST EDITED ON 01-09-14 AT 06:33 PM (EST)

If you ever wanted proof that Bobby Valentine is a raging lunatic, look no further.

Seems that Bobby V. was on WFAN earlier today and he shared his thoughts on this year's HOF inductees, claiming that all three "manipulated" the system to get in. He said that Frank Thomas got walks by 'jumping out of the way on inside pitches' and that Greg Maddux found success by 'using pitches that moved'.

What's next... Thomas hit a lot of HRs because he "jerked the bat forward in a violent manner'? Tom Glavine got a lot of wins because 'he gave up fewer runs than the opposing pitcher'?

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top


Lock | Archive | Remove

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
about this site   •   advertise on this site  •   contact us  •   privacy policy   •