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"Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-23-10, 03:36 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Thanks for the heads up Zombs!
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moonbaby 17013 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-23-10, 07:19 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Put on your eyeliner, it's almost time!
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 05:05 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 05:08 AM (EST)I really liked the episode and thought it was well done. However, I do agree about being let down. It really offered no huge suprises and I'm disappointed as to how it looks like this is going to play out. All this time and it's just about keeping the MIB on the island? Jacob brought all those ships and planes there? How does Desmond fit into this? Dharma? Widemore? I still don't think we can tell who is evil and who is not! Lots of thematic clues. That being said I did cry at the end with Hurley talking for Isabella to Richard. I also loved the way the episode started. It was filmed so exciting. The use of the flashbacks on Ilana to the beginning of Richard's flashbacks.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 04:29 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
MIB needed someone who deeply believed in God to kill Jacob. That seemed to be a rule in their game. MIB figured he needed to turn a man of faith against Jacob.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 05:16 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Ricardo was MiB's first attempt and it failed. Ricardo didn't believe in Jacob, he didn't know him.Later, MiB found his loophole: HE needed to use a man of Faith, Locke, to turn one of Jacob's own followers, Ben, against him. Ben had a very deep belief in Jacob. Listen to the words Locke used to convince Ben to do the deeds and change the words "island" and "Jacob" for "Church" and "God" respectively and that's what Locke did: Turn a man of faith against his beliefs. If not God/Devil than certainly supernatural beings playing God/Devil. Who else can give immortality, cure cancer, make a cripppled man walk, survive a knife to the heart?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 06:53 PM (EST)
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57. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Just to let you know you couldn't possibly offend me. Everyone has their opinion. I may not agree but I always discuss calmly.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 08:54 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
No spoilers. I'm just speculating on what has been shown. Jacob and MiB have powers associated with deities, the story has made many connections with mythology.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 05:09 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Plus" |
I think you may be confusing someone "doing good" and someone "being good". Jacob is like a good parent who wants the best for his kids (his recruits). That doesn't mean the kids find the parent to be good. Jacob wants the best for us; that we stop killing each other. He is well intentioned, not necessarily being good. And, he brings people that are broken to the island, answering their prayers, giving them a chance to find meaning in their lives or at redemption. "Here, the past doesn't mean a thing".MiB doesn't give a damn. His intentions are evil and nothing good can come from it. What he told Ricardo was, in effect: You don't know if he or I have your wife and you say you don't want to kill someone because that is what put you in trouble but, if you want to see your wife again, you must kill Jacob. Evil Incarnate. Also, MiB's word was supposed to be good forever but, now that Jacob's dead, MIB didn't answer Richard's plea. He didn't give a damn. Think of it another way: Hurley has always been the audience's moral compass. Some followed the man of faith, Locke, and others followed the man of science, Jack. Hurley was never blinded by faith or captivated by science. He relied on common sense. As an example: A hatch marked quarantine wasn't a good idea to open. Which side did Hurley pick? Jacob's. Hurley HAS to be on the side of good. Is Jacob playing a long con on Hurley? I suppose you could still think so but Jacob's MO has always been to leave one's free will, not to dirty his hands. This whole series would be a terrible waste if it was a practical joke played on the one character who never wanted to lead, never wanted anything for himself. It may have to wrap up in such an odd way because they are flirting with the notion that Jacob/God is the source of all Man's misery.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 08:01 PM (EST)
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58. "RE: Plus" |
No I am not confused. I just am reserving judgement until we are given more information. Nothing is really leading me to believe one is all good or all evil. Jacob brings people to the island and they die. I do like your take on Hurley not being a man of science nor of faith however I don't think Hurley is or ever has been the "audience's moral compass". He certainly has been the audience's "voice". I must have missed the part when they were opening the hatch where Jacob said don't open it? But if you are going to go back to the hatch what was so bad opening it? Discovering Desmond? Food? Pushing the button? Hurley always wanted to go with Locke if I recall even though he ended up going with Jack. But that's really irrelevant. He's made bad decisions before. A long con isn't a practical joke. It's getting someone to do something for you without realizing it. Jacob appears to do that over and over. He wanted Sayid to kill MIB, he wanted Ben to purge the Others etc. One more observation: if Jacob is so wonderful and all about free will why did they need a propaganda film to brainwash all the Others telling them Jacob is Love?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 08:49 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: Plus" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 08:58 PM (EST)>Jacob brings people to the island >and they die. People die off island also. Jacob doesn't kill them. We saw MiB killing many. >I do like your take on >Hurley not being a man >of science nor of faith >however I don't think Hurley >is or ever has been >the "audience's moral compass". >He certainly has been the >audience's "voice". I must >have missed the part when >they were opening the hatch >where Jacob said don't open >it?
Not Jacob, I meant Hurley told them not to open it. Between Locke's certainty that the island was their destiny and Jack's conviction that they had to use any means to get off the island, Hurley always held the middle ground, telling us that we shouldn't be totally behind Locke or Jack. That's what I meant: What he thinks is what we were supposed to think. >But if you are >going to go back to >the hatch what was so >bad opening it? Discovering >Desmond? Food? Pushing >the button?
It's pretty much when the Losties started actively playing this game. Playing a game without knowing the rules is always a bad idea. Hurley wanted no part of it. >Hurley always wanted to go with >Locke if I recall even >though he ended up going >with Jack. But that's >really irrelevant. He's made >bad decisions before. Bottom line, he went with one and the other at different times and it was never for personal gain or glory or to fix or control things, just to survive. >A long con isn't a practical >joke. It's getting someone >to do something for you >without realizing it. Jacob >appears to do that over >and over. He wanted >Sayid to kill MIB, he >wanted Ben to purge the >Others etc. I'm pretty sure con men have a good laugh once their pigeons bite. Anyway, Jacob was already dead when Dogen wanted Locke to kill Sayid, not the other way around. And, about the purge, we don't know who ordered it. We do know that Jacob had been thrown out of his cabin at some point so maybe MiB had tricked the Others into doing what he wanted, destroying Dharma who had found a way to keep him outside their compound. That fence was another cork. Maybe Widmore is putting a cork on the island again. >One more observation: if Jacob >is so wonderful and all >about free will why did >they need a propaganda film >to brainwash all the Others >telling them Jacob is Love? Unfortunately, I don't remember who made that video. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Jacob himself.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 04:22 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Sorry but in last year's finally, MIB himself said those exact words: "All they do is fight, destroy and corrupt." Jacob believed we were better than that.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 05:18 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
No, Hurley saw Isabella, not Ricardo. Hurley restored Ricardo's faith when MiB didn't honor his word.
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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03-24-10, 05:53 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Pretty sure she meant that Richard getting to see his wife meant "got to have a moment with her". But I think you know what she means.
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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03-24-10, 07:59 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Here's the thing for me - if all of this was to keep "evil" on the island then oops - too late. Evil's been off the island for a long time, just look at all the child molesters. Very disappointing.And I imagined Richard to be way older. I think it's funny that MIB told Richard the same thing Dogen told Sayid about trying to kill XLocke - both before sending him to do it and after he came back. "Don't give him time to speak ---- you let him speak."
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Carezy 72 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
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03-24-10, 08:25 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Yes, I noticed the instructions too. But what I found kind of weird was that when XLocke and Ben go into the base of the statue at the end of last season, XLocke doesn't mention that to Ben. In fact, Jacob says several things before Ben plunges his knife into Jacob's chest. Why, all of the sudden, was that one little tidbit to kill either of them removed?!I also thought to myself, after seeing Jacob manhandle Richard (yes I know, he was probably starving and weak), why wouldn't he have fought back against Ben?? He had no problem kicking Richard's butt. I also really liked how we saw Hurley speaking to Isabella before the whole story came out. Another little thought, it's funny how Richard asked for a specific gift from Jacob and received it (even though it was his third choice). I am so curious to see which gifts the candidates have... is Hurley's that he can see and speak with dead people?? Would he have asked for that gift??
I know a lot of people may have been disappointed with this episode, but I LOVED it. It was a nice change from the format of the season. I still don't understand how they'll have enough time to wrap up all the big questions, but that's what I find intriguing.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 05:25 PM (EST)
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52. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
I think the difference was the game's loophole: Jacob could fight against Ricardo who didn't believe in him but he was defenseless against one of his followers. Jacob only had his words to save himself but MiB knew it wouldn't be enough this time.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 08:02 PM (EST)
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59. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Where was it said that Jacob is defenseless against his followers?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 09:05 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
It wasn't said in so many words but we saw that Jacob didn't even try to defend himself and we heard that he was surprised that the once loyal Ben would do it. That pretty much left him defenseless and I think that's what MiB was counting on.
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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 08:32 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Good point Tummy, there is already Evil in the world. Why is MIB so special?
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 08:04 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Which episode was this revealed in?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 10:11 PM (EST)
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66. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Ever since Desmond told us he was pushing buttons to keep the world safe, we've been led to believe that something on the island could destroy the whole world. Who else but Smokey could do that? Who else but MiB has shown contempt for mankind?
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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03-25-10, 10:44 AM (EST)
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75. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
I don't like that they've played fast and loose with what Smokey is. For years we've been told that Smokey is the islands security system and now we're being led to believe Smokey is the Big Bad.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-25-10, 04:30 PM (EST)
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78. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
GRAY-HAIRED MAN: How did they find the Island? BLOND MAN: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here. GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you? BLOND MAN: You are wrong. GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-25-10, 07:38 PM (EST)
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82. "really?" |
That's reaching a bit but you are entitled to your opinion. I would hardly call that "contempt for mankind".
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-25-10, 09:36 PM (EST)
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88. "RE: really?" |
More commercials can be put in 6 years than in 90 minutes.
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PackMan 1207 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest"
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03-24-10, 08:49 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
>I think it's funny that MIB >told Richard the same thing >Dogen told Sayid about trying >to kill XLocke - both >before sending him to do >it and after he came >back. "Don't give him >time to speak ---- >you let him speak." Based on that, don't you think MIB would have offered the same advice to Ben when he "killed" Jacob at the end of last season? Jacob spoke to Ben, telling him that he didn't have to do it... that he had a choice. MIB would have known that Jacob wasn't really dead when he pushed him into the fire pit, so what did he gain in this game he is playing with Jacob? Overall, though, I did like this episode. It gave me some answers I already "knew", but it's still good to get the confirmation and check the questions off the list. It gave me a good story about Richard getting his wish to live forever, then realizing the curse (and frustration) of a wish granted. I also liked how the writers had Richard tell everyone that they were really dead and were in Hell. You would know from earlier interviews with the writers that it had been confirmed they weren't dead, but I liked the bit of a joke by the writers to throw that in early in the episode. I liked the MIB reaction at the end of the episode, as well... kind of his way of taking Jacob's analogy about the cork in the bottle and saying, "But what if I just break your bottle, instead?" If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to find time to do it again? - Anonymous
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dragonflies 8051 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-26-10, 10:35 PM (EST)
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96. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
But that is what happened. XLocke uttered Hello Sayid, and then Sayid plunged the knife in but XLocke didn't die.
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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03-24-10, 09:20 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
I loved it.Part of what I love about Lost is the questions, so even now, in the final season, when we get more questions, I, for one, enjoy it, because even the questions are answers. I agree that we do not know who is good and who is evil. I don't know that it breaks down that way, either, so honestly I think that trying to slap a label of "good" or "evil" on anyone is futile and not the point. Tummy, Breezy, I agree with you that part of my current stance is that I want a better story than, guy in white is good, guy in black is evil. That's. . . just not interesting. I think that we make a lot of assumptions about which character to believe based on pre-existing beliefs about that character. Why do we believe the "plunge the dagger in, don't let him talk, he's evil incarnate" when Jacob (via Dogen) tells Sayid to kill MiB, but we do NOT believe it when MiB gives identical directions to Richard to kill Jacob? Is it because Jacob wears white? Because we've "known" Jacob longer? Because we heard it from Jacob first? When Isabella appeared to Richard on the Black Rock, her references to "the devil" were intentionally vague. We're meant to assume she was talking about the smoke monster, but all she said was "the devil" and "have you met him" and we, and Richard, assume smokey, but she could have as easily been referring to Jacob. I do not think it is a coincidence that Isabella appeared the very moment Richard renounced Jacob and dug up her buried cross. Which MiB returned to him in the first place. I know how it was written and played, and how we're lead to believe that when Jacob explained the wine bottle with the island as the cork, that we assume that the wine is evil Smokey, and the cork/island is keeping evil at bay. That, too, is intentionally vague. My thought? What if Jacob is the one being "contained" on the island, and it's MiB's job to keep him there? If Jacob is dead, or defeated, then MiB can leave, earning his freedom. If MiB is indeed a security system, then his killing of people coming to the island could be seen as limiting the number of people who could potentially take Jacob's place. I believe that it's all been intentionally vague for a reason. I still feel a twist coming.
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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 09:26 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 09:27 AM (EST)I agree that we do not know who is good and who is evil. I don't know that it breaks down that way, either, so honestly I think that trying to slap a label of "good" or "evil" on anyone is futile and not the point. Why the labels is a good question. My thought? What if Jacob is the one being "contained" on the island, and it's MiB's job to keep him there? If Jacob is dead, or defeated, then MiB can leave, earning his freedom. If MiB is indeed a security system, then his killing of people coming to the island could be seen as limiting the number of people who could potentially take Jacob's place. Oooooh nice twist. ETA to fix html code.
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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 10:56 AM (EST)
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31. "Frooooo" |
LOL Augie now thinks you and Mr Fro are boozing it up on Tuesday nights. Oh and she lvoes you. *smooch*
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 05:45 PM (EST)
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54. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 05:56 PM (EST)>Part of what I love about >Lost is the questions, so >even now, in the final >season, when we get more >questions, I, for one, enjoy >it, because even the questions >are answers. Totally agree. >I agree that we do not >know who is good and >who is evil. I >don't know that it breaks >down that way, either, so >honestly I think that trying >to slap a label of >"good" or "evil" on anyone >is futile and not the >point. Sorry but it has been at the center of Lost ever since we met Ben and he said: "We are the Good Guys." This is a game between MiB and Jacob, a game between Ben and Widmore, and there are sides in any game. I'll pick Hurley's side as the good one and, since Hurley's with Jacob well, there you go. >I think that we make a >lot of assumptions about which >character to believe based on >pre-existing beliefs about that character. > Why do we believe >the "plunge the dagger in, >don't let him talk, he's >evil incarnate" when Jacob (via >Dogen) tells Sayid to kill >MiB, but we do NOT >believe it when MiB gives >identical directions to Richard to >kill Jacob? Is it >because Jacob wears white? >Because we've "known" Jacob longer? > Because we heard it >from Jacob first?
No, because we saw the smoke monster kill many people including Jacob. And, very importantly in last night's episode: Jacob couldn't even conceive that MIB wanted to kill him. A naïve person can be good, it cannot be evil. >I do not think it is >a coincidence that Isabella appeared >the very moment Richard renounced >Jacob and dug up her >buried cross. Which MiB >returned to him in the >first place. No, Isabella didn't appear at the moment Ricardo renounced Jacob, that happened in the previous episode when he tried to kill himself. Isabella appeared to Hurley when MiB didn't honor his word to Ricardo. >My thought? What if Jacob >is the one being "contained" >on the island, and it's >MiB's job to keep him >there? Jacob has left the island many times. > I still feel a >twist coming. For sure but it won't be that MIB's the good one. Anyway, it would be a lame twist: "We tricked you guys, the one in black is good." I really don't care who is good and who is evil: I want the twist to tell us how this game got started, how do the Losties fit in and how it will end. Those are the ONLY questions worth answering.
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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03-25-10, 10:37 AM (EST)
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74. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
They'd answer everything. Really? One question comes to mind, would it answer the question about Walt and Room 23? And so many more. Will James wind up with Kate or Juliet? I'm not into soaps. Surely, you didn't mean that to sound as condescending as it comes across. Nothing else matters. In your opinion. I'll stick with the relief that you're not one of the writers.
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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03-25-10, 08:43 PM (EST)
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84. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
I'm talking specific things that I'd like to see answered, not just how he would fit into the nice neat, but boring package of Jacob - Good, MIB - bad.
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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03-26-10, 08:26 AM (EST)
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91. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
I'm glad you're happy with what you've been given. Me, I'd like some of the smaller questions to be answered.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 09:40 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Well, add Richard to the list of characters who has killed someone. The list of those who haven't just gets shorter. Walt, Rose, Vincent, Boone, Shannon, Libby, Aaron, Leslie, Alex, Jacob, Frank, Ilana, Charlotte, Faraday..? Penny, but she's never been to the island, nor baby Charlie.Awesome episode character-development-wise. And now we know how the statue got broke.
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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 10:19 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
I was disappointed that they didn't show more of Richard's life: his interaction with the time travelers in the 1950s, visit to Locke with the six things, role in the Purge, etc. The scenes on the slave ship seemed drawn out.
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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03-24-10, 11:34 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
They should have made all of these last episodes 2 hours long!
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 11:43 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Yep. But the network is slyly using Lost as a lead-in to build audiences for other shows. Some even have Losties in them. Bernard, Juliet, etc.
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Max Headroom 10028 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 12:03 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Don't forget Charlie, he's on FlashForward.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 01:51 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Answers: 1. How the statue was broken and how the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the Island 2. Where and when Richard came from 3. The root of the conflict between Jacob and MIB. White and dark. Good and evil. And the balance. MIB is all things evil, a darkness, a hell, and it wants to escape containment and spread over the world....wants to send them "all" to Hell. The island contains the evil. The evil feels that all men can be corrupted. Jacob believes that good will ultimately prevail. I come to think of the Island as a portal, a door that MIB wants to break out of . A portal that Jacob was guardian to, and now one of the candidates will be. 4. The only way MIB can escape the confines of the Island is to kill Jacob. 5. Jacob replied that when he is gone, there will be another protector after him, to which MIB replies that he will then kill them. 6. MIB is capable of deception and temptation.... 7. Richard was given a job by Jacob as the intermediary for the people that Jacob brings to the Island....the others. 8. MIB told Richard that his offer to reunite Richard with Isabella still stood, and he gave him her pendant. Richard buried it, perhaps because he didn't want to be reminded of the "temptation". 9. When Richard agrees to the job and is granted eternal life, Jacob is able to "one up" MIB, thus gives him the white stone. 10. Again, at the end, Isabella tells Richard via Hurley, that if Richard does'nt stop the MIB from leaving the Island, "we will all go to Hell". Questions: Which "one" of the candidates will prove that they are not corrupt? Hasn't Sawyer already proven it. Especially when they were fleeing the Island in the heavily loaded helicopter, and he unselfishly gave up on his dream of leaving the Island, so that his friends could survive. Also, note that this is the temptation that MIB is using to recruit Sawyer as well...to get off the Island. I like to think that indeed Sawyer would sacrifice himself to spare his friends....again. Just as James sacrificed his quest to pursue "Sawyer" in the sideways world to regain his friendship and trust in Miles, his friend. Hurley: Has Hurley ever been shown to be corrupt? Everybody loves Hugo. Hurley and his ability to talk to dead people seems to be a candidate to take Richard's place on the Island to me, perhaps...What could he be tempted with? Libby? Apollo bars? Jack: What will Jack be tempted with? Will he fall for it....he wants to fix things, wants to fix the past, can't let go of the past to move on. He's "fixated". Sayid: Tempted with Nadia, and has taken the temptation hook, line, and sinker. But, will he help MIB with his attempt to free the Island. He did kill Dogan, but now he seems spent. I think Sayid is "lost", but he has been corrupted. As has Claire, imo. (Therefore the "sickness" means that they are corrupted?) Sun/Jin: It looks like next week Sun will be tempted by MIB/XLocke with being reunited with Jin. But, this to me seems inevitable as they are both on the Island in the same time frame, and Ilana needs to find Jin. Locke: What is going to happen with Locke, I am beginning to think that perhaps Locke will rise again if and when the MIB is killed....I don't know if the real John Locke story is really over or not. Kate: I can't help but to consider Kate. Clearly, she's been tempted with Aaron and Claire, and XLocke is playing with her emotions and the thought of the crazy mother. But Kate is strong, imo, and is driven by worthy motives. Ben: I also want to think about him. Might he be a candidate? He's come full circle and has redeemed himself, at least to Ilana. He has been tempted by MIB with the offer to rule the Island, once XLocke is gone. He's been tempted and he perservered, he was not corrupted by the evil darkness that is XLocke. Regarding all of the apparitions that appear on the Island. Most importantly Mr. Eko's brother, Christian, and now Isabella. With Isabella, we saw that smokey was on the screen at the same time that Isabella was....they were two different entities, no? Also, wasn't smokey and Mr. Eko's brother also on the screen together? MIB is able to make these apparitions appear, but he is not them?? Still don't know exactly how this happens. But, it seems to me that these apparitions are made by MIB as ways to manipulate and tempt the candidates or potential candidates? Important to note that Isabella appeared first to Richard as an apparition on the slave ship, before she left when Smokey had arrived. Then, later with Hurley, she never appeared to Richard....she appeared as a dead person only to Hurley, who we know can see dead people. So, she appeared one time as an apparition. More questions: How will Richard be able to stop the MIB from leaving the Island? Will he seek to restore protection of the Island by making the choice between the candidates. How will they narrow the "one" down? What tests must they pass? How will it become apparent....? Is Widmore there with his own agenda and how will that affect the conflict that is occuring between white and black on the Island? Remember, Widmore did know about the "war" that was coming to the island. As much as I am convinced that Widmore is evil, he was the one that recruited John Locke to return with the Island and to recruit all of the other Oceanic Six to return with him. It seems as if he knew "the candidates" all had to go back to succeed Jacob. But, nevertheless, to me, it seems as if Widmore has another selfish motive, perhaps to exploit the special properties of the island. And, what is in the locked quarters? Desmond perhaps? What else, who else could it be? Interesting points in the episode: 1. Magnus Hanso was the owner of the Black Rock 2. MIB said the "nice to see you out of those chains, Richard"....again. 3. MIB said the exact same thing that Dogan said to Sayid when he gave the same dagger to Sayid...."you have one chance to kill him, plunge the knife into his chest, don't hesitate or let him speak before you do it, as he's very persuasive"....etc. ...and I am sure there is more that I am missing here. Great show with alot of confirmations. Looks like next week will be about Sun.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-24-10, 09:18 PM (EST)
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65. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
FP, I see we are once more in agreement. You ask:"Which "one" of the candidates will prove that they are not corrupt?" I believe that, of those you mentioned, only Hurley would fit. But, up to this point, Hurley is more the new Richard, the intermediary, than the new Jacob. However, Ilana doesn't know which of Jin or Sun is the true candidate so, if we count only 1 of them, we get to 5 known candidates, leaving 1 spot open: Walt? I'd love it if that loose ends gets tied up but I doubt it. The fact that only a surname was used also brings another possibility: The names in the cave or on the lighthouse weren't those of idividuals but of families. You know I'm going back to Aaron. Or Sun's daughter? Too little was made of her, I think. I think Aaron, the blond boy, is the key.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-25-10, 01:08 AM (EST)
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68. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
I want there to be a twist or I'll be bored stiff at the end. I mean, even having MIB be good will be not as complex as I would like. I am becoming resigned to not loving the premise behind the show. I think the worth of the show has been in the journey.That said, I was disappointed in Richard's backstory. Another melodramatic story. Just another guy who was a victim in life, not particularly bright even. It turns out he's the type who would make an easy dupe, damaged goods, like Locke. The murder he committed was not even one where we get a lot of moral ambiguity. In another century, he'd have gotten a light sentence for manslaughter. Why exactly was it bad for Smokie to kill Magnus Hanso and crew? Weren't they thoroughly bad people? Didn't he kill the guy who was ruthlessly skewering helpless men in chains instead of giving them a chance? Titus Welliver's acting here gives me pause in assuming MIB is bad. I've seen Titus play a sociopathic evil heartless bastige, and he does it very well. He has the ability to project evil, and he's not doing it here. The only scenes where he's really hostile is where he interacts with Jacob. Now maybe we are going to be shown the really evil Titus along the line here, but it won't be a surprise because we all know he can be a cold mofo ... and is currently playing one on The Good Wife. If he weren't a "smoke thing" -- would we not feel something for a character who says sadly that he's lost his body, his humanity, his mother ... isn't he the underdog? My other issue is that Jacob was not a good son in the Old Testament. He stole his twin brother's identity and his birthright by conning their father. Yes, the prophet Jacob pulled quite the con in his youth. Also, I am not 100% sure that these people are alive as we know it at this point. If this is like the Third Policeman, and everyone is in hell already, then it really doesn't matter who lives and who dies as they are all dead and it's all illusion. MIB wants it to end. Jacob wants to continue the status quo. To me, the character that wants movement and change is more appealing than the character that wants to control everything. As far as sympathy for the two -- Jacob seems to have always been there. Dying doesn't seem to have cramped his style that much. MIB appears to be absolutely tormented. If he is the devil, he is a version of the devil who is eternally tormented and damned (similar to Milton's Satan). Hurley is good, but he's superstitious and fairly easily manipulated with apparitions. However, the fact that Jacob has Hurley and Jack, in a sense, whereas MIB has Sawyer, Miles, Kate, Sayid, does suggest that MIB recruits the bad boys and girls that we love. He does appeal to the personal motivations and desires. Is that evil or is that an acknowledgment of humanity? `If there's no meaning in it,' said the King, `that saves a world of trouble, you know, as we needn't try to find any. ~ Lewis Carroll
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-25-10, 05:04 AM (EST)
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70. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
>>> I had imagined him some sort of Egyptian royalty, maybe even a god, that had been duped into serving Jacob. Someone much older than what he's turned out to be and with a much more interesting backstory.Me too! I was totally let down that there was nothing inherently special about Ricardus. Did he not speak Latin in earlier episodes? He and the Others must have learned Latin on the island then? And dammit, I still want to know what was the point of that computer in the Hatch needing a sequence of numbers every 108 minutes, what is the deal with the sickness, and what is the deal with pregnant women, if that's different than the sickness they took medicine for. Why some people took medicine every day, like Desmond, but the Dharmaville Others don't bother with it, and the beach people didn't need it - but why Aaron needed it. If it's protection from the smoke monster, I want to know how it works.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-25-10, 06:25 AM (EST)
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71. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Well, I have to admit, I, too, was disappointed in Richard's back story. Personally, I was hoping to see his progression through the centuries with the others that came to the Island, right up to the ones that we know. Maybe even the back stories of characters like Eloise and Widmore. As we have seen many many names written and crossed out on the cave walls and on the dial in the lighthouse. Jacob said his motivation for bringing people to the island was to prove to MIB that people were not all corrupt? He forgot to mention to Richard that the real reason was to find his replacement...and, look how Jacob dismissively said to Richard when he asked what happened to the people that he had brought to the Island, "they are all dead". Well, I trust there will indeed be some more twists ahead. It seems that "the war" is imminent. The beginning and the journey in this story has truly been amazing for me. And, with an unraveling like we have had from the writers, I trust that the ending will indeed be a fitting one. After all, that's what's been so hyped with this show. It will have a beginning, a middle, and a proper end. I still have hope that perhaps the real John Locke will rise again....who knows!
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-25-10, 05:38 PM (EST)
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80. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Nice analysis, OFG. I'd like to make a few observations: >Why exactly was it bad for >Smokie to kill Magnus Hanso >and crew?
Murder is murder. And Smokey probably would have killed Ricardo if he hadn't figured out he could use him instead. >Titus Welliver's acting here gives me >pause in assuming MIB is >bad. I've seen Titus >play a sociopathic evil heartless >bastige, and he does it >very well. He has >the ability to project evil, >and he's not doing it >here. The only scenes >where he's really hostile is >where he interacts with Jacob. > Now maybe we are >going to be shown the >really evil Titus along the >line here, but it won't >be a surprise because we >all know he can be >a cold mofo ... and >is currently playing one on >The Good Wife.
Brilliant! However, you have to consider that we have only seen Welliver play MIB in the "old days". Using Ricardo was his first attempt to kill Jacob and we have never seen him at a later date. Terry O'Quinn is playing the "sociopathic evil heartless bastige" and he's doing it very well. He managed to "out-Ben" Ben! Welliver's role has been that of playing the "bully that's been beaten and hasn't yet figured out how to deal with that new position". He's doing it quite well also. >If he weren't a "smoke thing" >-- would we not feel >something for a character who >says sadly that he's lost >his body, his humanity, his >mother ... isn't he the >underdog? An underdog? Doesn't he have an army by his side while Jacob's followers are reduced to Hurley, Jack, Ilana, Sun and the broken down but suddenly likable Ben. >MIB wants it to end. >Jacob wants to continue the >status quo. To me, >the character that wants movement >and change is more appealing >than the character that wants >to control everything. MIB wants everything to end. Destruction is not change. Jacob wants the status quo on the island but he believes in progress and free will. >As far as sympathy for the >two -- Jacob seems to >have always been there. >Dying doesn't seem to have >cramped his style that much. > MIB appears to be >absolutely tormented. If he >is the devil, he is >a version of the devil >who is eternally tormented and >damned (similar to Milton's Satan). But Milton's satan was still satan. >Hurley is good, but he's superstitious >and fairly easily manipulated with >apparitions. However, the fact >that Jacob has Hurley and >Jack, in a sense, whereas >MIB has Sawyer, Miles, Kate, >Sayid, does suggest that MIB >recruits the bad boys and >girls that we love. >He does appeal to the >personal motivations and desires. >Is that evil or is >that an acknowledgment of humanity?
Not only that but look what MIB has done to them. Sayid's already dead, Claire is insane and Kate was almost killed.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-25-10, 08:11 PM (EST)
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83. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-25-10 AT 08:11 PM (EST)I don't take anything for certain either and if the story does a 180° turn, I hope the writers do it properly, not because they don't want to offend anyone. What I'm doing is following the story has it's been told and trying to see where that leads me. Even if we disregard what MIB has said about Jacob and what Jacob has said about MIB, we still have what each have said about themselves: We know MIB doesn't care discussing right or wrong, he wants to kill, he killed everyone who didn't follow his ultimatum about leaving the temple, he doesn't see any redeeming qualities in the people who are brought to the island and he lies. Of Jacob, we know he believes in progress and in free will, that he couldn't even conceive that MIB wanted to kill him, that he sought Ilana's help not to protect himself but to protect our Losties. And then there's Dogen. He's one of the few people who came to the island without being a killer. He came to save the life of his kid. Jacob made sure Hurley would be accepted by Dogen, protected by him. XLocke made sure Sayid would kill Dogen so that he could enter the temple and kill everyone that remained.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-26-10, 04:41 PM (EST)
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92. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
So Dogen trying to get Sayid to kill Flocke is ok? What is the difference here? Sayid sent to kill MIB with directions to not let him speak first comparing to Richard being sent to kill Jacob with directions to not let him speak first. Dogen made the devil's bargain to save the life of his kid that he nearly killed.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-26-10, 06:08 PM (EST)
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95. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
>Through Dogen Jacob had Sayid try >to kill MIB. >You could say that MIB having >Sayid kill Dogen was self >defense since Dogen sent Sayid >at him first. However >I believe Sayid did it >on his own. Very strange: You believe Sayid operated on his own but that Dogen followed Jacob's orders? I find so many things wrong with that: 1- Jacob was dead when MIB came to the temple. Dogen WAS on his own. 2- The Smoke Monster was besieging the temple. That is an act of war and Dogen knew it. He told so to Claire and we know he was right by how it turned out. 3- Sayid isn't Sayid anymore so how can he act on his own? 4- According to the translator, Dogen was preventing Smokey from entering the temple and Smokey desperately wanted to enter the temple. That gives him motive to order Sayid to kill him. 5- Self defense for MIB would have been to walk away.
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warp_core breach 469 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
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03-25-10, 10:06 AM (EST)
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73. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Wow! I'm very impressed (and slightly intimidated) by the discussions/theories/views in this thread! All are very interesting points!I liked this episode. True it wasn't a blockbuster but it was good for character development. Very good acting by Nestor Carbonell. I liked the part at the beginning around the fire when Richard started laughing insanely when they asked him what to do and also when he lost in on Hurley. As well in Sawyer's episode where he was sneaking around in the jungle hiding from Flocke. Like Ben, he is a shadow of his former self... someone who lost his faith and has become truly unhinged. Will he pull it together now and go after MIB? I liked the scene where Flocke was standing on the hill watching Richard and Hurley... very sinister. Also liked the scene where MIB smashed the wine bottle - signifying breaking out of his confines... Interesting that both "sides" say the same thing when they try to have the other killed. I must say that both Jacob and MIB are very convincing. A Gift from Agman
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-28-10, 05:47 PM (EST)
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99. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
From the start, I said this episode was disappointing but it isn't as bad as colin says. Colin writes: "We find out how the statue was broken. During a storm, a ship hit THE TOP of the statue and cracked it into pieces??? Huh? The huge stone statue cracked and the wooden boat was ok?" The wave broke the statue. As for Ricardo's exchange with MIB, I think the point was completely missed. When Ricardo said: "Murder is wrong. That's what brought me here" it was supposed to tell us why MIB is on the island. Yes, it's a strange answer for someone who thinks he's dead and in hell but consider that Ricardo didn't know what to make of anything he heard. We know he was not very well-educated but deeply religious and completely confused. His true nature came out: He isn't a murderer. That's what we have to know about him. MIB is a murderer. That's what we have to know about him. And again, I read comments saying Jacob is evil because he brings people to the island and manipulates them. I'm almost certain Jacob brings the island to people to save as many of them as possible from deadly accidents. All those he visited before, he protects as best he can from Smokey by imposing some rules.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-29-10, 08:28 AM (EST)
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100. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
No storm wave would break a statue that had been around for most likely over two thousand years, or even two hundred years.Plus last season the ship was coming in by daylight and no storm clouds in sight. Nor do we have any hint there was a quake producing a tsunami. In Ab Aeterno it's a storm, and at night. Here is what I think happened. When they wrote the Finale of Season 2, they showed us the statue, but they didn't want to give away the Egyptian mythology. They wanted to keep us guessing about aliens by showing the four toed ruin. Then, in Season 5's Finale, it becomes necessary or at least desirable to show Jacob living in the Statue, and to reveal the original form of the deity. OK, so now they have small kine problem. Statue needs to get broken. Also, we had a cool mystery with the ship way inland, but now we have to show how that happened. Oh, I know, let's bring the ship in on a big wave and hope no one thinks about it too hard. I think you are kidding yourself if you think these writers hold back because of continuity or the logic of physics. They have so much going on with this show, that they are constantly moving people along with something else to think about, and they more or less get away with it. The scene with Juliet getting dragged into the hole last season was similarly flawed. There was some immense electromagnetic force let loose, which caused a lot of metal to get pulled into the hole including what wrapped around her. But there was all kinds of other metal in the scene that didn't even move. Meanwhile people are shooting guns and neither the guns or the bullets are even mildly affected by this magnetic force. Why not? Because the writers needed Juliet to get dragged into the pit and they needed the shoot out to happen, and they weren't going to let a little hobgoblin like consistency constrain them. I still love the show, but I think the criticisms are valid as to how the characters respond to information (pointed out by Colin). The characters get dragged around by the plot points.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-29-10, 10:45 AM (EST)
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101. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno"" |
Hehehe!Colin certainly has style. ... because Richard is apparently the dumbest, least curious, and easiest person to manipulate in the world. I honestly loved the depiction of Richard in this episode for basically that reason. For most of the series he's been the mysterious robot pawn of "the island." How'd he get that way was what the episode was about. Throughout the flashback he was shown in a heightened emotional state; concerned about his sick wife, grieving her death, despondent at being condemned (to death and to hell), fearful in chains before and after the wreck, confused and desperate. Then he turns himself over totally to Jacob, basically abandoning his humanity, which returned to him only after Jacob's death which left him again confused and desperate. But by the end he claims his own control, Isabella his constant. This is interesting to me because this opens up Richard as a new character, he has control of himself for the first time in a long life where he has always before been at the whim of forces he could never control.
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moonbaby 17013 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-28-10, 07:56 AM (EST)
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98. "Meh" |
All I can say is:They have a lot of work to do. Great posts, here, though. Really enjoyed reading them!
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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03-30-10, 09:48 AM (EST)
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103. "DocArzt post Ab Aeterno blog..." |
the Doc Arzt column hereHe comments and raises questions that we do here. But, with a very nice pictorial display.
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p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
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