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"Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by mrc on 03-22-10 at 12:54 PM
This thread is for discussion of the episode once it airs on the Left Coast or for spoiler-free discussion prior to the episode. Please keep all spoilers in the designated thread.

(Note: The episode description and guest casting are in the spoiler thread.)

Table of contents
Messages in this discussion
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-23-10 at 03:12 PM
Episode is an extra 6 minutes tonight for those that TIVO!

Think we'll see how truly evil Jacob really is tonight? I think so!

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Breezy on 03-23-10 at 03:36 PM
Thanks for the heads up Zombs!
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by frodis on 03-23-10 at 04:48 PM
They needed 6 extra minutes to pack in all the evil!

Woo!

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by moonbaby on 03-23-10 at 07:19 PM
Put on your eyeliner, it's almost time!
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-23-10 at 11:37 PM
Really?!

I don't know if I was expecting too much, but I was a little let down by the end of the episode.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-24-10 at 05:05 AM
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 05:08 AM (EST)

I really liked the episode and thought it was well done.

However, I do agree about being let down. It really offered no huge suprises and I'm disappointed as to how it looks like this is going to play out. All this time and it's just about keeping the MIB on the island? Jacob brought all those ships and planes there? How does Desmond fit into this? Dharma? Widemore?

I still don't think we can tell who is evil and who is not! Lots of thematic clues.

That being said I did cry at the end with Hurley talking for Isabella to Richard. I also loved the way the episode started. It was filmed so exciting. The use of the flashbacks on Ilana to the beginning of Richard's flashbacks.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 07:16 AM
"I still don't think we can tell who is evil and who is not!"

Really?? On one side you have Jacob who doesn't think he has to tell people what is right and what is wrong and on the other you have MIB who doesn't give a damn about right or wrong, he only cares about his selfish needs. Didn't you hear him say to Ricardo: "We could talk about right or wrong all day but in the end, the question remains: Do you want to see your wife again?"

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Breezy on 03-24-10 at 07:48 AM
I agree with Zombs, we still don't know for sure who is good or bad.

And yes I heard that line and the Jacob line about MIB believing all humans are inately bad and will act accordingly. Just because one or the other of them said it, doesn't make it true. MIB said Jacob was the devil, should we believe that too?

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-24-10 at 07:52 AM
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 08:19 AM (EST)

There's a tiny little part of me that's wanting a twist - Jacob to be the baddy. But I think that's just me wanting things to not have been so obvious. After last night I'm thinking MIB is bad.

One of the reason's I'm still thinking that MIB is not bad is that when Smokey was down in the Black Rock killing everyone and came to Richard - it did the whole "judging" thing along with the camera-flash thing. We know Richard wasn't bad - the death was an accident - so...... did Smokey not kill Richard because he wasn't "bad"?

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Breezy on 03-24-10 at 08:30 AM
LOL I'm leaning toward MIB being bad too. I just think we have to keep an open mind and see if there is a twist.

So Smokey scanned Locke and Richard, and allowed them to live. What does that mean?

Jacob didn't know Richard beforehand. So was he just randomly bringing people to the island, or was there someone else on the boat he wanted?

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 09:27 AM
Jacob didn't know Richard beforehand. So was he just randomly bringing people to the island, or was there someone else on the boat he wanted?

I thought that was interesting, too. I guess we don't know if any of the officers got away or if Smokey killed all of them.


"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by blacknwhitedog on 03-24-10 at 10:38 AM
So Smokey scanned Locke and Richard, and allowed them to live. What does that mean?

he thought they were potential recruits

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 10:43 AM
I thought that, too. I also thought that when Richard gave MiB the white rock from Jacob, it was a "ha ha, you thought you had this guy, but I got him" message.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 04:29 PM
MIB needed someone who deeply believed in God to kill Jacob. That seemed to be a rule in their game. MIB figured he needed to turn a man of faith against Jacob.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 04:50 PM
But he ended up getting Ben to kill Jacob. I don't think Ben has been shown to have a deep belief in God.


I know that you favor the God/devil parallel for Jacob/MiB. I don't favor that theory, myself.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 05:16 PM
Ricardo was MiB's first attempt and it failed. Ricardo didn't believe in Jacob, he didn't know him.

Later, MiB found his loophole: HE needed to use a man of Faith, Locke, to turn one of Jacob's own followers, Ben, against him. Ben had a very deep belief in Jacob. Listen to the words Locke used to convince Ben to do the deeds and change the words "island" and "Jacob" for "Church" and "God" respectively and that's what Locke did: Turn a man of faith against his beliefs.

If not God/Devil than certainly supernatural beings playing God/Devil. Who else can give immortality, cure cancer, make a cripppled man walk, survive a knife to the heart?

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 06:19 PM
I've avoided commenting on the God/Devil stuff thus far because it's very hard to argue against a literary concept of God without unintentionally touching on people's personal faith and concept of God.

It would be too easy for me to express something poorly, and wind up in an argument that is beyond the scope of a fictional TV show.

Sounds like a cop-out, I know. I'm sorry.

Believe me, if we were sitting in a coffee shop just chatting I'd love to discuss it but I don't trust myself to express myself clearly enough here.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 06:53 PM
Just to let you know you couldn't possibly offend me. Everyone has their opinion. I may not agree but I always discuss calmly.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-24-10 at 08:09 PM
Again I must have missed this episode where this was revealed? What does God have to do with it?

Do you follow spoilers? Because I would hate to think you are discussing your opinions(which are very valid I might add) on upcoming spoilers. It would be an unfair debate and IMHO if this is the way the show will go, very disappointing.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 08:54 PM
No spoilers. I'm just speculating on what has been shown. Jacob and MiB have powers associated with deities, the story has made many connections with mythology.
"Plus"
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-24-10 at 02:44 PM
Why keep bringing up the concept of the "long con"?Someone is conning is about something.

I do agree that it appears to be leaning that MIB is evil and Jacob good. However I find Jacob a bit of a douche. Something's not right with him either. My best guess is that they are both pretty bad and really not concerned with most people that are brought there. It's something between them and the rest is collateral damage.

"RE: Plus"
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 05:09 PM
I think you may be confusing someone "doing good" and someone "being good". Jacob is like a good parent who wants the best for his kids (his recruits). That doesn't mean the kids find the parent to be good. Jacob wants the best for us; that we stop killing each other. He is well intentioned, not necessarily being good. And, he brings people that are broken to the island, answering their prayers, giving them a chance to find meaning in their lives or at redemption. "Here, the past doesn't mean a thing".

MiB doesn't give a damn. His intentions are evil and nothing good can come from it. What he told Ricardo was, in effect: You don't know if he or I have your wife and you say you don't want to kill someone because that is what put you in trouble but, if you want to see your wife again, you must kill Jacob.
Evil Incarnate.

Also, MiB's word was supposed to be good forever but, now that Jacob's dead, MIB didn't answer Richard's plea. He didn't give a damn.

Think of it another way: Hurley has always been the audience's moral compass. Some followed the man of faith, Locke, and others followed the man of science, Jack. Hurley was never blinded by faith or captivated by science. He relied on common sense. As an example: A hatch marked quarantine wasn't a good idea to open. Which side did Hurley pick? Jacob's. Hurley HAS to be on the side of good.

Is Jacob playing a long con on Hurley? I suppose you could still think so but Jacob's MO has always been to leave one's free will, not to dirty his hands. This whole series would be a terrible waste if it was a practical joke played on the one character who never wanted to lead, never wanted anything for himself. It may have to wrap up in such an odd way because they are flirting with the notion that Jacob/God is the source of all Man's misery.

"RE: Plus"
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-24-10 at 08:01 PM
No I am not confused. I just am reserving judgement until we are given more information. Nothing is really leading me to believe one is all good or all evil.

Jacob brings people to the island and they die.

I do like your take on Hurley not being a man of science nor of faith however I don't think Hurley is or ever has been the "audience's moral compass". He certainly has been the audience's "voice". I must have missed the part when they were opening the hatch where Jacob said don't open it? But if you are going to go back to the hatch what was so bad opening it? Discovering Desmond? Food? Pushing the button?

Hurley always wanted to go with Locke if I recall even though he ended up going with Jack. But that's really irrelevant. He's made bad decisions before. A long con isn't a practical joke. It's getting someone to do something for you without realizing it. Jacob appears to do that over and over. He wanted Sayid to kill MIB, he wanted Ben to purge the Others etc.

One more observation: if Jacob is so wonderful and all about free will why did they need a propaganda film to brainwash all the Others telling them Jacob is Love?

"RE: Plus"
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 08:49 PM
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 08:58 PM (EST)

>Jacob brings people to the island
>and they die.

People die off island also. Jacob doesn't kill them. We saw MiB killing many.


>I do like your take on
>Hurley not being a man
>of science nor of faith
>however I don't think Hurley
>is or ever has been
>the "audience's moral compass".
>He certainly has been the
>audience's "voice". I must
>have missed the part when
>they were opening the hatch
>where Jacob said don't open
>it?

Not Jacob, I meant Hurley told them not to open it. Between Locke's certainty that the island was their destiny and Jack's conviction that they had to use any means to get off the island, Hurley always held the middle ground, telling us that we shouldn't be totally behind Locke or Jack. That's what I meant: What he thinks is what we were supposed to think.


>But if you are
>going to go back to
>the hatch what was so
>bad opening it? Discovering
>Desmond? Food? Pushing
>the button?

It's pretty much when the Losties started actively playing this game. Playing a game without knowing the rules is always a bad idea. Hurley wanted no part of it.

>Hurley always wanted to go with
>Locke if I recall even
>though he ended up going
>with Jack. But that's
>really irrelevant. He's made
>bad decisions before.

Bottom line, he went with one and the other at different times and it was never for personal gain or glory or to fix or control things, just to survive.

>A long con isn't a practical
>joke. It's getting someone
>to do something for you
>without realizing it. Jacob
>appears to do that over
>and over. He wanted
>Sayid to kill MIB, he
>wanted Ben to purge the
>Others etc.

I'm pretty sure con men have a good laugh once their pigeons bite. Anyway, Jacob was already dead when Dogen wanted Locke to kill Sayid, not the other way around. And, about the purge, we don't know who ordered it. We do know that Jacob had been thrown out of his cabin at some point so maybe MiB had tricked the Others into doing what he wanted, destroying Dharma who had found a way to keep him outside their compound. That fence was another cork. Maybe Widmore is putting a cork on the island again.

>One more observation: if Jacob
>is so wonderful and all
>about free will why did
>they need a propaganda film
>to brainwash all the Others
>telling them Jacob is Love?

Unfortunately, I don't remember who made that video. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Jacob himself.


"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 04:22 PM
Sorry but in last year's finally, MIB himself said those exact words: "All they do is fight, destroy and corrupt." Jacob believed we were better than that.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 09:23 AM
Didn't you hear him say to Ricardo: "We could talk about right or wrong all day but in the end, the question remains: Do you want to see your wife again?"

Yep. And when Richard renounced Jacob, and dug up Isabella's cross, he got to see his wife again.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 05:18 PM
No, Hurley saw Isabella, not Ricardo. Hurley restored Ricardo's faith when MiB didn't honor his word.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-24-10 at 05:53 PM
Pretty sure she meant that Richard getting to see his wife meant "got to have a moment with her". But I think you know what she means.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Breezy on 03-24-10 at 07:02 AM
I agree. All that excitement for this episode and it felt like a lot of filler again. Or atleast a lot of the waiting for someone (Jacob) to free Richard felt like filler.

The episode would have been a great episode, if I hadn't gone into it thinking it would have been more. (because of all the hype)


So MIB thinks all humans are inately bad and Jacob is trying to prove him wrong. Jacob told MIB he had to stay on the island as long as he was alive, so that was verified. Did we really learn anything new? We pretty much already knew this stuff. The only new thing I can think of is we know now why Richard doesn't age.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-24-10 at 07:59 AM
Here's the thing for me - if all of this was to keep "evil" on the island then oops - too late. Evil's been off the island for a long time, just look at all the child molesters. Very disappointing.

And I imagined Richard to be way older.

I think it's funny that MIB told Richard the same thing Dogen told Sayid about trying to kill XLocke - both before sending him to do it and after he came back. "Don't give him time to speak ---- you let him speak."

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Carezy on 03-24-10 at 08:25 AM
Yes, I noticed the instructions too. But what I found kind of weird was that when XLocke and Ben go into the base of the statue at the end of last season, XLocke doesn't mention that to Ben. In fact, Jacob says several things before Ben plunges his knife into Jacob's chest. Why, all of the sudden, was that one little tidbit to kill either of them removed?!

I also thought to myself, after seeing Jacob manhandle Richard (yes I know, he was probably starving and weak), why wouldn't he have fought back against Ben?? He had no problem kicking Richard's butt.


I also really liked how we saw Hurley speaking to Isabella before the whole story came out. Another little thought, it's funny how Richard asked for a specific gift from Jacob and received it (even though it was his third choice). I am so curious to see which gifts the candidates have... is Hurley's that he can see and speak with dead people?? Would he have asked for that gift??

I know a lot of people may have been disappointed with this episode, but I LOVED it. It was a nice change from the format of the season. I still don't understand how they'll have enough time to wrap up all the big questions, but that's what I find intriguing.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by weltek on 03-24-10 at 04:55 PM
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 04:58 PM (EST)

Jacob wanted to believe Ben was really not evil enough to kill for vengance. "You have a choice." Jacob was trying to prove a point and thought Ben was enough of a convert. My question...those are kind of huge stakes for Jacob to "hope" Ben didn't stab him.

Edited to delete the point about "speaking" that others were already discussing before.


-A Tribetastic Creation

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 05:25 PM
I think the difference was the game's loophole: Jacob could fight against Ricardo who didn't believe in him but he was defenseless against one of his followers. Jacob only had his words to save himself but MiB knew it wouldn't be enough this time.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-24-10 at 08:02 PM
Where was it said that Jacob is defenseless against his followers?
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 09:05 PM
It wasn't said in so many words but we saw that Jacob didn't even try to defend himself and we heard that he was surprised that the once loyal Ben would do it. That pretty much left him defenseless and I think that's what MiB was counting on.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Breezy on 03-24-10 at 08:32 AM
Good point Tummy, there is already Evil in the world. Why is MIB so special?
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 05:27 PM
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 09:55 PM (EST)


MIB wants to end the world. I think he wants to spread the island's disease, the inability to have children, to the whole world, putting an end to Jacob's demonstration of progress. A mass murderer on that scale is a little more evil than your usual criminal.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-24-10 at 08:04 PM
Which episode was this revealed in?
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 10:11 PM
Ever since Desmond told us he was pushing buttons to keep the world safe, we've been led to believe that something on the island could destroy the whole world. Who else but Smokey could do that? Who else but MiB has shown contempt for mankind?
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-25-10 at 10:44 AM
I don't like that they've played fast and loose with what Smokey is. For years we've been told that Smokey is the islands security system and now we're being led to believe Smokey is the Big Bad.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Snidget on 03-25-10 at 11:21 AM
I'm not sure it has to be either or.

Whatever is powerful enough to trap it there may be able to let him loose at certain times for its own purposes.

Also most of the security system comes from people's interpretations of why it attacks. If Smokey tends to go after people in certain locations or appears to go after them for certain reasons it could appear to be a security system. Even if it attacks people for it's own reasons.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-25-10 at 02:33 PM
Ummm...where was it shown that MIB had contempt for mankind?

He just has shown annoyance with Jacob.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-25-10 at 04:30 PM
GRAY-HAIRED MAN: How did they find the Island?

BLOND MAN: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

BLOND MAN: You are wrong.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

"really?"
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-25-10 at 07:38 PM
That's reaching a bit but you are entitled to your opinion. I would hardly call that "contempt for mankind".
"RE: really?"
Posted by michel on 03-25-10 at 08:58 PM
What he's saying is: Homo homini lupus.

Short of saying we are worthless insects, there's not much lower he could go.

"RE: really?"
Posted by Outfrontgirl on 03-25-10 at 09:10 PM
The irritating thing about this plot is, they did the same thing in at least two original Star Treks, in 45 minutes of television. Superior beings, believe that humans are terminally aggressive, ruthless, violent, let the humans demonstrate they can be better.

This is not a theme that requires six years of TV to explicate, and as far as I can see most of the six years hasn't exactly been on point.

"RE: really?"
Posted by michel on 03-25-10 at 09:36 PM
More commercials can be put in 6 years than in 90 minutes.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by PackMan on 03-24-10 at 08:49 AM
>I think it's funny that MIB
>told Richard the same thing
>Dogen told Sayid about trying
>to kill XLocke - both
>before sending him to do
>it and after he came
>back. "Don't give him
>time to speak ----
>you let him speak."

Based on that, don't you think MIB would have offered the same advice to Ben when he "killed" Jacob at the end of last season? Jacob spoke to Ben, telling him that he didn't have to do it... that he had a choice. MIB would have known that Jacob wasn't really dead when he pushed him into the fire pit, so what did he gain in this game he is playing with Jacob?

Overall, though, I did like this episode. It gave me some answers I already "knew", but it's still good to get the confirmation and check the questions off the list. It gave me a good story about Richard getting his wish to live forever, then realizing the curse (and frustration) of a wish granted.

I also liked how the writers had Richard tell everyone that they were really dead and were in Hell. You would know from earlier interviews with the writers that it had been confirmed they weren't dead, but I liked the bit of a joke by the writers to throw that in early in the episode.

I liked the MIB reaction at the end of the episode, as well... kind of his way of taking Jacob's analogy about the cork in the bottle and saying, "But what if I just break your bottle, instead?"


If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to find time to do it again? - Anonymous

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by BrassFan on 03-24-10 at 12:34 PM
>I think it's funny that MIB
>told Richard the same thing
>Dogen told Sayid about trying
>to kill XLocke - both
>before sending him to do
>it and after he came
>back. "Don't give him
>time to speak ----
>you let him speak."

I still don't think that is to be taken literally. I don't think that the mere fact that their mouth made a sound is what saved them.

I think that what the instruction means was played out last night. Richard let Jacob speak, and he was convincing enough to get Richard to join him. Just like Sayid let Locke speak, and Locke was able to get Sayid to join him.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Carezy on 03-24-10 at 12:48 PM
But if that was the case, it wouldn't make sense with Sayid because the only thing that XLocke said before being stabbed was "hi sayid". That's definitely not enough to convince someone to switch sides...

NO??

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by BrassFan on 03-24-10 at 02:17 PM
>But if that was the case,
>it wouldn't make sense with
>Sayid because the only thing
>that XLocke said before being
>stabbed was "hi sayid". That's
>definitely not enough to convince
>someone to switch sides...
>
>NO??

And then he told Sayid that Dogen knew that MIB couldn't be killed, and that he sent Sayid out to die...and then convinced Sayid to join him.

It would be the ultimate in Cheesiness if simply uttering "hello" was enough to prevent the magic dagger from killing you.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by dragonflies on 03-26-10 at 10:35 PM
But that is what happened. XLocke uttered Hello Sayid, and then Sayid plunged the knife in but XLocke didn't die.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Max Headroom on 03-24-10 at 07:58 AM
Good episode. I thought Richard's story was very interesting.

However...

Once again, there was little advancement of the overall plot. They're going to need a large shoehorn to fit in answers to all the unresolved plotlines in the rapidly-dwindling number of episodes left.


Am I talking about the right episode this time?

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 09:20 AM
I loved it.

Part of what I love about Lost is the questions, so even now, in the final season, when we get more questions, I, for one, enjoy it, because even the questions are answers.

I agree that we do not know who is good and who is evil. I don't know that it breaks down that way, either, so honestly I think that trying to slap a label of "good" or "evil" on anyone is futile and not the point.

Tummy, Breezy, I agree with you that part of my current stance is that I want a better story than, guy in white is good, guy in black is evil. That's. . . just not interesting.

I think that we make a lot of assumptions about which character to believe based on pre-existing beliefs about that character. Why do we believe the "plunge the dagger in, don't let him talk, he's evil incarnate" when Jacob (via Dogen) tells Sayid to kill MiB, but we do NOT believe it when MiB gives identical directions to Richard to kill Jacob? Is it because Jacob wears white? Because we've "known" Jacob longer? Because we heard it from Jacob first?

When Isabella appeared to Richard on the Black Rock, her references to "the devil" were intentionally vague. We're meant to assume she was talking about the smoke monster, but all she said was "the devil" and "have you met him" and we, and Richard, assume smokey, but she could have as easily been referring to Jacob.

I do not think it is a coincidence that Isabella appeared the very moment Richard renounced Jacob and dug up her buried cross. Which MiB returned to him in the first place.

I know how it was written and played, and how we're lead to believe that when Jacob explained the wine bottle with the island as the cork, that we assume that the wine is evil Smokey, and the cork/island is keeping evil at bay. That, too, is intentionally vague.

My thought? What if Jacob is the one being "contained" on the island, and it's MiB's job to keep him there? If Jacob is dead, or defeated, then MiB can leave, earning his freedom. If MiB is indeed a security system, then his killing of people coming to the island could be seen as limiting the number of people who could potentially take Jacob's place.


I believe that it's all been intentionally vague for a reason. I still feel a twist coming.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Breezy on 03-24-10 at 09:26 AM
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 09:27 AM (EST)

I agree that we do not know who is good and who is evil. I don't know that it breaks down that way, either, so honestly I think that trying to slap a label of "good" or "evil" on anyone is futile and not the point.

Why the labels is a good question.

My thought? What if Jacob is the one being "contained" on the island, and it's MiB's job to keep him there? If Jacob is dead, or defeated, then MiB can leave, earning his freedom. If MiB is indeed a security system, then his killing of people coming to the island could be seen as limiting the number of people who could potentially take Jacob's place.

Oooooh nice twist.

ETA to fix html code.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-24-10 at 02:40 PM
Labels indeed. If everything dark is bad and light is good does that mean Rose=bad, Bernard=good? MIB was wearing black shirt, light pants. Jacob was wearing white shirt, dark pants. Yin-yang? You need both. No one is all bad and no one is all good. Backgammon, black and white. Is the person playing with black pieces evil? I think the show is trying to get you to let go of your pre-concieved notions of things.

I'm disappointed that this show could just be about these 2 characters that were introduced late in the game. I miss Jack and the gang. Even though they have been there I just feel like it is not about them anymore. We have too much invested in them.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-24-10 at 10:19 AM
What if Jacob is the one being "contained" on the island, and it's MiB's job to keep him there

But we've seen Jacob leave the island and visit our characters.

I keep coming back to MIB saying Jacob took his body. Are there fables that pertain to that?

"and Augie"
Posted by Breezy on 03-24-10 at 10:25 AM
Fro! You've got Augie all juiced up over your *mocking voice* silly theory. ---- This is from Augie, she can't log on from work. LOL


We were discussing your theory, but she can't see it since Jacob is dead. So why doesn't MIB just leave?

And ofcourse now I will have to tell her that Tummy agrees with her. *giggle*

"RE: and Augie"
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 10:29 AM
Well, since Jacob can leave, that would explain evil already being in the world. *sticks tongue out at Tummy*

So is Augie ghost-Isabella and you're Hurley, translating for her?

I also asked Mr. Fro why MiB doesn't just leave already, if Jacob is dead. Does he need a vehicle (submarine, airplane, etc.) He's smoke, can't he just poof away?

I don't think he's fixin' to leave just yet, I think he has to take care of the "Replacements."

"LOL"
Posted by Breezy on 03-24-10 at 10:47 AM
Why yes, yes I am. *throws hot pocket at Fro*

Hmmmm vehicle, does he need a "live" body to be able to leave?

"Frooooo"
Posted by Breezy on 03-24-10 at 10:56 AM
LOL Augie now thinks you and Mr Fro are boozing it up on Tuesday nights. Oh and she lvoes you. *smooch*
"RE: Frooooo"
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 11:03 AM
Well, duh. The booze makes it all make sense!


*ghostsmooch Augie*

The booze also doesn't care if you overlook a little thing like the fact that Jacob can leave. *slosh*

"RE: and Augie"
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-24-10 at 02:51 PM
Something about water? They mention going to the beach a lot to get away from him. Also when Flocke left Hydra island he took Christian's shoes off and then put them back on when he got to the main island. Of course Flocke was standing in the water though off of Hydra when he was first "resurrected".

I love Augie. Just wanted to say it. *wAVES*

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 05:45 PM
LAST EDITED ON 03-24-10 AT 05:56 PM (EST)

>Part of what I love about
>Lost is the questions, so
>even now, in the final
>season, when we get more
>questions, I, for one, enjoy
>it, because even the questions
>are answers.

Totally agree.

>I agree that we do not
>know who is good and
>who is evil. I
>don't know that it breaks
>down that way, either, so
>honestly I think that trying
>to slap a label of
>"good" or "evil" on anyone
>is futile and not the
>point.

Sorry but it has been at the center of Lost ever since we met Ben and he said: "We are the Good Guys." This is a game between MiB and Jacob, a game between Ben and Widmore, and there are sides in any game. I'll pick Hurley's side as the good one and, since Hurley's with Jacob well, there you go.


>I think that we make a
>lot of assumptions about which
>character to believe based on
>pre-existing beliefs about that character.
> Why do we believe
>the "plunge the dagger in,
>don't let him talk, he's
>evil incarnate" when Jacob (via
>Dogen) tells Sayid to kill
>MiB, but we do NOT
>believe it when MiB gives
>identical directions to Richard to
>kill Jacob? Is it
>because Jacob wears white?
>Because we've "known" Jacob longer?
> Because we heard it
>from Jacob first?

No, because we saw the smoke monster kill many people including Jacob. And, very importantly in last night's episode: Jacob couldn't even conceive that MIB wanted to kill him. A naïve person can be good, it cannot be evil.

>I do not think it is
>a coincidence that Isabella appeared
>the very moment Richard renounced
>Jacob and dug up her
>buried cross. Which MiB
>returned to him in the
>first place.

No, Isabella didn't appear at the moment Ricardo renounced Jacob, that happened in the previous episode when he tried to kill himself. Isabella appeared to Hurley when MiB didn't honor his word to Ricardo.

>My thought? What if Jacob
>is the one being "contained"
>on the island, and it's
>MiB's job to keep him
>there?

Jacob has left the island many times.

> I still feel a
>twist coming.

For sure but it won't be that MIB's the good one. Anyway, it would be a lame twist: "We tricked you guys, the one in black is good." I really don't care who is good and who is evil: I want the twist to tell us how this game got started, how do the Losties fit in and how it will end. Those are the ONLY questions worth answering.


"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-24-10 at 10:37 PM
Those are the ONLY questions worth answering.

I hope to Cod you're not one of the writers in real life. Because if that's the only answers we get I will be sorely disappointed. Needless to say, I really disagree with you.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-25-10 at 07:16 AM
They'd answer everything. What else is there? Will James wind up with Kate or Juliet? I'm not into soaps.

What is this place and why are they there? Those are the questions and the game between Jacob and MiB will tell us that. Nothing else matters.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-25-10 at 10:37 AM
They'd answer everything.

Really?

One question comes to mind, would it answer the question about Walt and Room 23? And so many more.

Will James wind up with Kate or Juliet? I'm not into soaps.
Surely, you didn't mean that to sound as condescending as it comes across.

Nothing else matters.

In your opinion. I'll stick with the relief that you're not one of the writers.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-25-10 at 05:13 PM
I've often said that Walt is a big loose end that I wish would get tied up but most posters here have dismissed the idea, saying Walt was written off not to come back because he's too old and a bad actor. If Walt does come back it's because he's Jacob's best candidate so, yes, the answer to Walt's story would fit in the answers about the Game.

Room 23? Trivial. In my opinion, of course. Ben wanted to keep that guy away from Alex. I seriously doubt that it figures in future stories. At most, it would be in passing while explaining how Dharma fits into the game.


"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-25-10 at 08:43 PM
I'm talking specific things that I'd like to see answered, not just how he would fit into the nice neat, but boring package of Jacob - Good, MIB - bad.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-25-10 at 09:32 PM
Then I fear either you will be terribly disappointed or we'll never get answers to the big questions.

When I ask what is this place and what is this game, I want something to surprise me.
I'm still thinking that the incident that caused Oceanic 815 to crash also helped MIB gain control over Jacob.
I still want to know if the real incident at the end of last season was the bomb or Jacob's death.
I'm still hoping for the revelation that there's a black hole under the island, that it either is the source of MIB's powers and had to be contained by the numbers or that it's part of the cork holding MIB prisoner and had to be reconnected every 108 minutes.
I'm still hoping that Aaron was the Blond Boy, Jacob's heir who will eventually find his way back to the island to save everyone. That Aaron was sent off the island like a modern day Moses only to return and lead the Losties to safety.
I'm still waiting for an explanation to all the technology that wasn't from the XXI century and could explain how Jacob set up this island to protect his past, our present, from being destroyed by MiB.

Boring? I hope not. Individually, the Losties may move me but their stories aren't important. Many have died, others will so I'll accept whatever the writers decide for them. The mysteries of the Island and the Game are what matters. Those need acceptable answers.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-26-10 at 05:13 AM
I understand what you're saying, but the writer's over the years have set it up so you're, meaning me, are expecting some resolution to the smaller questions.

The Hurly bird, Rose's comment from the very first episode of, and I'm paraphrasing "that sounds familiar, who are Adam and Eve. They could throw an answer into each episode until the end but they're just throwing more questions out there.

When/if Jacob turns out to be not the good one I have a lovely padded room if you want to check in - Room 23.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-26-10 at 07:14 AM
I'm perfectly happy with how they resolved Rose's story and I think Adam and Eve was also resolved when Hurley said it could be them. Those are all fillers. THE question was asked by Charlie: "What is this place?" To answer that, THE most important scene of the first 5 seasons was MIB's talk with Jacob.

Why do you think I have no interest in the flash-sideways? That's what suppose to happen if Oceanic 815 had never crashed on the island. Well, if those bozos had never been on the island I wouldn't be watching.

And don't worry about my mental health; I've read plenty of books that turned out differently than I expected. Sometimes the surprise is great, sometimes it's a letdown. I'll wait and see.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-26-10 at 08:26 AM
I'm glad you're happy with what you've been given. Me, I'd like some of the smaller questions to be answered.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by dabo on 03-24-10 at 09:40 AM
Well, add Richard to the list of characters who has killed someone. The list of those who haven't just gets shorter. Walt, Rose, Vincent, Boone, Shannon, Libby, Aaron, Leslie, Alex, Jacob, Frank, Ilana, Charlotte, Faraday..? Penny, but she's never been to the island, nor baby Charlie.

Awesome episode character-development-wise. And now we know how the statue got broke.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by mrc on 03-24-10 at 10:19 AM
I was disappointed that they didn't show more of Richard's life: his interaction with the time travelers in the 1950s, visit to Locke with the six things, role in the Purge, etc. The scenes on the slave ship seemed drawn out.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by frodis on 03-24-10 at 10:34 AM
I also thought we were going to see more of Richard during the timeline we already know. I thought we'd see stuff from his perspective, or his visits to our Losties off-island.

I'm not disappointed, though. I liked what we saw of his story.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by BrassFan on 03-24-10 at 12:35 PM
>I was disappointed that they didn't
>show more of Richard's life:
>his interaction with the time
>travelers in the 1950s, visit
>to Locke with the six
>things, role in the Purge,
>etc. The scenes on the
>slave ship seemed drawn out.
>

Tell me about it. The show was 6 minutes long, but we saw 34 minutes of Richard in chains trying to escape....

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by blacknwhitedog on 03-24-10 at 10:36 AM
I like the way this ep was done instead of flashing back and forth a whole lot.

I think when Isabella appeared to Richard on the ship after the smoke monster attack- she was really the smoke monster- same as when Ben's daughter appeared to him- she was really smokey (aka MIB)- we do know MIB lies.



Handcrafted by RollDdice 2005

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by dabo on 03-29-10 at 01:37 PM
I've been wondering about that. How does a shapeshifter mimick someone he's never seen, never had any contact with? Christian's body was delivered to the island on flight 815 so there was a template for MIB to work from. Isabella exists on the island only as a ghost, or in Richard's memory of her, purely as mental energy.

The writers may not have thought it out, it may have been a mistake. If not a mistake, perhaps this points to duality in the underlying theme of the series. Jacob and MIB may turn out to be different aspects, different faces, of the same entity. In the God analogy: MIB the vengeful OT God, Jacob the loving NT God.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-24-10 at 11:34 AM
They should have made all of these last episodes 2 hours long!
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by dabo on 03-24-10 at 11:43 AM
Yep. But the network is slyly using Lost as a lead-in to build audiences for other shows. Some even have Losties in them. Bernard, Juliet, etc.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Max Headroom on 03-24-10 at 12:03 PM
Don't forget Charlie, he's on FlashForward.
"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Flowerpower on 03-24-10 at 01:51 PM
Answers:

1. How the statue was broken and how the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the Island
2. Where and when Richard came from
3. The root of the conflict between Jacob and MIB. White and dark. Good and evil. And the balance. MIB is all things evil, a darkness, a hell, and it wants to escape containment and spread over the world....wants to send them "all" to Hell. The island contains the evil. The evil feels that all men can be corrupted. Jacob believes that good will ultimately prevail.

I come to think of the Island as a portal, a door that MIB wants to break out of . A portal that Jacob was guardian to, and now one of the candidates will be.

4. The only way MIB can escape the confines of the Island is to kill Jacob.
5. Jacob replied that when he is gone, there will be another protector after him, to which MIB replies that he will then kill them.
6. MIB is capable of deception and temptation....
7. Richard was given a job by Jacob as the intermediary for the people that Jacob brings to the Island....the others.
8. MIB told Richard that his offer to reunite Richard with Isabella still stood, and he gave him her pendant. Richard buried it, perhaps because he didn't want to be reminded of the "temptation".
9. When Richard agrees to the job and is granted eternal life, Jacob is able to "one up" MIB, thus gives him the white stone.
10. Again, at the end, Isabella tells Richard via Hurley, that if Richard does'nt stop the MIB from leaving the Island, "we will all go to Hell".

Questions:

Which "one" of the candidates will prove that they are not corrupt?

Hasn't Sawyer already proven it. Especially when they were fleeing the Island in the heavily loaded helicopter, and he unselfishly gave up on his dream of leaving the Island, so that his friends could survive. Also, note that this is the temptation that MIB is using to recruit Sawyer as well...to get off the Island. I like to think that indeed Sawyer would sacrifice himself to spare his friends....again. Just as James sacrificed his quest to pursue "Sawyer" in the sideways world to regain his friendship and trust in Miles, his friend.

Hurley: Has Hurley ever been shown to be corrupt? Everybody loves Hugo. Hurley and his ability to talk to dead people seems to be a candidate to take Richard's place on the Island to me, perhaps...What could he be tempted with? Libby? Apollo bars?

Jack: What will Jack be tempted with? Will he fall for it....he wants to fix things, wants to fix the past, can't let go of the past to move on. He's "fixated".

Sayid: Tempted with Nadia, and has taken the temptation hook, line, and sinker. But, will he help MIB with his attempt to free the Island. He did kill Dogan, but now he seems spent. I think Sayid is "lost", but he has been corrupted. As has Claire, imo. (Therefore the "sickness" means that they are corrupted?)

Sun/Jin: It looks like next week Sun will be tempted by MIB/XLocke with being reunited with Jin. But, this to me seems inevitable as they are both on the Island in the same time frame, and Ilana needs to find Jin.

Locke: What is going to happen with Locke, I am beginning to think that perhaps Locke will rise again if and when the MIB is killed....I don't know if the real John Locke story is really over or not.

Kate: I can't help but to consider Kate. Clearly, she's been tempted with Aaron and Claire, and XLocke is playing with her emotions and the thought of the crazy mother. But Kate is strong, imo, and is driven by worthy motives.

Ben: I also want to think about him. Might he be a candidate? He's come full circle and has redeemed himself, at least to Ilana. He has been tempted by MIB with the offer to rule the Island, once XLocke is gone. He's been tempted and he perservered, he was not corrupted by the evil darkness that is XLocke.

Regarding all of the apparitions that appear on the Island. Most importantly Mr. Eko's brother, Christian, and now Isabella. With Isabella, we saw that smokey was on the screen at the same time that Isabella was....they were two different entities, no? Also, wasn't smokey and Mr. Eko's brother also on the screen together? MIB is able to make these apparitions appear, but he is not them?? Still don't know exactly how this happens. But, it seems to me that these apparitions are made by MIB as ways to manipulate and tempt the candidates or potential candidates?

Important to note that Isabella appeared first to Richard as an apparition on the slave ship, before she left when Smokey had arrived. Then, later with Hurley, she never appeared to Richard....she appeared as a dead person only to Hurley, who we know can see dead people. So, she appeared one time as an apparition.

More questions:

How will Richard be able to stop the MIB from leaving the Island? Will he seek to restore protection of the Island by making the choice between the candidates. How will they narrow the "one" down? What tests must they pass? How will it become apparent....?

Is Widmore there with his own agenda and how will that affect the conflict that is occuring between white and black on the Island? Remember, Widmore did know about the "war" that was coming to the island. As much as I am convinced that Widmore is evil, he was the one that recruited John Locke to return with the Island and to recruit all of the other Oceanic Six to return with him. It seems as if he knew "the candidates" all had to go back to succeed Jacob. But, nevertheless, to me, it seems as if Widmore has another selfish motive, perhaps to exploit the special properties of the island.

And, what is in the locked quarters? Desmond perhaps? What else, who else could it be?

Interesting points in the episode:

1. Magnus Hanso was the owner of the Black Rock
2. MIB said the "nice to see you out of those chains, Richard"....again.
3. MIB said the exact same thing that Dogan said to Sayid when he gave the same dagger to Sayid...."you have one chance to kill him, plunge the knife into his chest, don't hesitate or let him speak before you do it, as he's very persuasive"....etc.
...and I am sure there is more that I am missing here.

Great show with alot of confirmations. Looks like next week will be about Sun.




"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by blacknwhitedog on 03-24-10 at 02:05 PM
Ilana was told there are 6 candidates left to replace Jacob- I have the feeling it won't be one that is chosen- it will be all of them.


Handcrafted by RollDdice 2005

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-24-10 at 09:18 PM
FP, I see we are once more in agreement. You ask:

"Which "one" of the candidates will prove that they are not corrupt?"

I believe that, of those you mentioned, only Hurley would fit. But, up to this point, Hurley is more the new Richard, the intermediary, than the new Jacob.

However, Ilana doesn't know which of Jin or Sun is the true candidate so, if we count only 1 of them, we get to 5 known candidates, leaving 1 spot open: Walt? I'd love it if that loose ends gets tied up but I doubt it. The fact that only a surname was used also brings another possibility: The names in the cave or on the lighthouse weren't those of idividuals but of families. You know I'm going back to Aaron. Or Sun's daughter? Too little was made of her, I think. I think Aaron, the blond boy, is the key.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Outfrontgirl on 03-25-10 at 01:08 AM
I want there to be a twist or I'll be bored stiff at the end. I mean, even having MIB be good will be not as complex as I would like. I am becoming resigned to not loving the premise behind the show. I think the worth of the show has been in the journey.

That said, I was disappointed in Richard's backstory. Another melodramatic story. Just another guy who was a victim in life, not particularly bright even. It turns out he's the type who would make an easy dupe, damaged goods, like Locke. The murder he committed was not even one where we get a lot of moral ambiguity. In another century, he'd have gotten a light sentence for manslaughter.

Why exactly was it bad for Smokie to kill Magnus Hanso and crew? Weren't they thoroughly bad people? Didn't he kill the guy who was ruthlessly skewering helpless men in chains instead of giving them a chance?

Titus Welliver's acting here gives me pause in assuming MIB is bad. I've seen Titus play a sociopathic evil heartless bastige, and he does it very well. He has the ability to project evil, and he's not doing it here. The only scenes where he's really hostile is where he interacts with Jacob. Now maybe we are going to be shown the really evil Titus along the line here, but it won't be a surprise because we all know he can be a cold mofo ... and is currently playing one on The Good Wife.

If he weren't a "smoke thing" -- would we not feel something for a character who says sadly that he's lost his body, his humanity, his mother ... isn't he the underdog?

My other issue is that Jacob was not a good son in the Old Testament. He stole his twin brother's identity and his birthright by conning their father. Yes, the prophet Jacob pulled quite the con in his youth.

Also, I am not 100% sure that these people are alive as we know it at this point. If this is like the Third Policeman, and everyone is in hell already, then it really doesn't matter who lives and who dies as they are all dead and it's all illusion.

MIB wants it to end. Jacob wants to continue the status quo. To me, the character that wants movement and change is more appealing than the character that wants to control everything.

As far as sympathy for the two -- Jacob seems to have always been there. Dying doesn't seem to have cramped his style that much. MIB appears to be absolutely tormented. If he is the devil, he is a version of the devil who is eternally tormented and damned (similar to Milton's Satan).

Hurley is good, but he's superstitious and fairly easily manipulated with apparitions. However, the fact that Jacob has Hurley and Jack, in a sense, whereas MIB has Sawyer, Miles, Kate, Sayid, does suggest that MIB recruits the bad boys and girls that we love. He does appeal to the personal motivations and desires. Is that evil or is that an acknowledgment of humanity?


`If there's no meaning in it,' said the King, `that saves a world of trouble, you know, as we needn't try to find any. ~ Lewis Carroll

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Tummy on 03-25-10 at 03:31 AM
Well said.

Here's the thing about Richard. I had imagined him some sort of Egyptian royalty, maybe even a god, that had been duped into serving Jacob. Someone much older than what he's turned out to be and with a much more interesting backstory. I guess that's why this episode has me worrying about the story in general.

And thanks for reminding me about the story of Jacob. Even though I'd known it I had forgotten it. Jacob having taken MIB's body...hmmm.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Outfrontgirl on 03-25-10 at 05:04 AM
>>> I had imagined him some sort of Egyptian royalty, maybe even a god, that had been duped into serving Jacob. Someone much older than what he's turned out to be and with a much more interesting backstory.

Me too! I was totally let down that there was nothing inherently special about Ricardus. Did he not speak Latin in earlier episodes? He and the Others must have learned Latin on the island then?

And dammit, I still want to know what was the point of that computer in the Hatch needing a sequence of numbers every 108 minutes, what is the deal with the sickness, and what is the deal with pregnant women, if that's different than the sickness they took medicine for. Why some people took medicine every day, like Desmond, but the Dharmaville Others don't bother with it, and the beach people didn't need it - but why Aaron needed it.

If it's protection from the smoke monster, I want to know how it works.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Flowerpower on 03-25-10 at 06:25 AM
Well, I have to admit, I, too, was disappointed in Richard's back story. Personally, I was hoping to see his progression through the centuries with the others that came to the Island, right up to the ones that we know. Maybe even the back stories of characters like Eloise and Widmore.

As we have seen many many names written and crossed out on the cave walls and on the dial in the lighthouse. Jacob said his motivation for bringing people to the island was to prove to MIB that people were not all corrupt? He forgot to mention to Richard that the real reason was to find his replacement...and, look how Jacob dismissively said to Richard when he asked what happened to the people that he had brought to the Island, "they are all dead".

Well, I trust there will indeed be some more twists ahead. It seems that "the war" is imminent.

The beginning and the journey in this story has truly been amazing for me. And, with an unraveling like we have had from the writers, I trust that the ending will indeed be a fitting one. After all, that's what's been so hyped with this show. It will have a beginning, a middle, and a proper end.

I still have hope that perhaps the real John Locke will rise again....who knows!


"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-25-10 at 05:38 PM
Nice analysis, OFG. I'd like to make a few observations:


>Why exactly was it bad for
>Smokie to kill Magnus Hanso
>and crew?

Murder is murder. And Smokey probably would have killed Ricardo if he hadn't figured out he could use him instead.


>Titus Welliver's acting here gives me
>pause in assuming MIB is
>bad. I've seen Titus
>play a sociopathic evil heartless
>bastige, and he does it
>very well. He has
>the ability to project evil,
>and he's not doing it
>here. The only scenes
>where he's really hostile is
>where he interacts with Jacob.
> Now maybe we are
>going to be shown the
>really evil Titus along the
>line here, but it won't
>be a surprise because we
>all know he can be
>a cold mofo ... and
>is currently playing one on
>The Good Wife.

Brilliant! However, you have to consider that we have only seen Welliver play MIB in the "old days". Using Ricardo was his first attempt to kill Jacob and we have never seen him at a later date. Terry O'Quinn is playing the "sociopathic evil heartless bastige" and he's doing it very well. He managed to "out-Ben" Ben!

Welliver's role has been that of playing the "bully that's been beaten and hasn't yet figured out how to deal with that new position". He's doing it quite well also.

>If he weren't a "smoke thing"
>-- would we not feel
>something for a character who
>says sadly that he's lost
>his body, his humanity, his
>mother ... isn't he the
>underdog?

An underdog? Doesn't he have an army by his side while Jacob's followers are reduced to Hurley, Jack, Ilana, Sun and the broken down but suddenly likable Ben.

>MIB wants it to end.
>Jacob wants to continue the
>status quo. To me,
>the character that wants movement
>and change is more appealing
>than the character that wants
>to control everything.

MIB wants everything to end. Destruction is not change. Jacob wants the status quo on the island but he believes in progress and free will.

>As far as sympathy for the
>two -- Jacob seems to
>have always been there.
>Dying doesn't seem to have
>cramped his style that much.
> MIB appears to be
>absolutely tormented. If he
>is the devil, he is
>a version of the devil
>who is eternally tormented and
>damned (similar to Milton's Satan).

But Milton's satan was still satan.


>Hurley is good, but he's superstitious
>and fairly easily manipulated with
>apparitions. However, the fact
>that Jacob has Hurley and
>Jack, in a sense, whereas
>MIB has Sawyer, Miles, Kate,
>Sayid, does suggest that MIB
>recruits the bad boys and
>girls that we love.
>He does appeal to the
>personal motivations and desires.
>Is that evil or is
>that an acknowledgment of humanity?

Not only that but look what MIB has done to them. Sayid's already dead, Claire is insane and Kate was almost killed.


"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Outfrontgirl on 03-25-10 at 07:29 PM
But I don't like Jacob either. Both of them treat people like game pieces, and as if life and death aren't much more significant then when a player takes a chess piece and puts it on the discard pile.

I agree that FLocke is playing a crafty and dynamic villain.

I don't take anything as certain that Jacob has said about MIB or vice versa. I'm not sure what MIB really wants. I'm waiting to see.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-25-10 at 08:11 PM
LAST EDITED ON 03-25-10 AT 08:11 PM (EST)

I don't take anything for certain either and if the story does a 180° turn, I hope the writers do it properly, not because they don't want to offend anyone. What I'm doing is following the story has it's been told and trying to see where that leads me.

Even if we disregard what MIB has said about Jacob and what Jacob has said about MIB, we still have what each have said about themselves:

We know MIB doesn't care discussing right or wrong, he wants to kill, he killed everyone who didn't follow his ultimatum about leaving the temple, he doesn't see any redeeming qualities in the people who are brought to the island and he lies.

Of Jacob, we know he believes in progress and in free will, that he couldn't even conceive that MIB wanted to kill him, that he sought Ilana's help not to protect himself but to protect our Losties.

And then there's Dogen. He's one of the few people who came to the island without being a killer. He came to save the life of his kid. Jacob made sure Hurley would be accepted by Dogen, protected by him. XLocke made sure Sayid would kill Dogen so that he could enter the temple and kill everyone that remained.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-26-10 at 04:41 PM
So Dogen trying to get Sayid to kill Flocke is ok?

What is the difference here? Sayid sent to kill MIB with directions to not let him speak first comparing to Richard being sent to kill Jacob with directions to not let him speak first.

Dogen made the devil's bargain to save the life of his kid that he nearly killed.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-26-10 at 04:56 PM
"So Dogen trying to get Sayid to kill Flocke is ok?"

Yes. Self-defense.

The difference with Ricardo? Did Jacob ever try to kill MIB? No.

Dogen's story is certainly over and, from all we've seen, he was a good father and a hard worker who made 1 mistake. One of the few good men.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by zombiebaby on 03-26-10 at 05:07 PM
Through Dogen Jacob had Sayid try to kill MIB.

You could say that MIB having Sayid kill Dogen was self defense since Dogen sent Sayid at him first. However I believe Sayid did it on his own.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-26-10 at 06:08 PM
>Through Dogen Jacob had Sayid try
>to kill MIB.
>You could say that MIB having
>Sayid kill Dogen was self
>defense since Dogen sent Sayid
>at him first. However
>I believe Sayid did it
>on his own.

Very strange: You believe Sayid operated on his own but that Dogen followed Jacob's orders? I find so many things wrong with that:

1- Jacob was dead when MIB came to the temple. Dogen WAS on his own.
2- The Smoke Monster was besieging the temple. That is an act of war and Dogen knew it. He told so to Claire and we know he was right by how it turned out.
3- Sayid isn't Sayid anymore so how can he act on his own?
4- According to the translator, Dogen was preventing Smokey from entering the temple and Smokey desperately wanted to enter the temple. That gives him motive to order Sayid to kill him.
5- Self defense for MIB would have been to walk away.


"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by warp_core breach on 03-25-10 at 10:06 AM
Wow! I'm very impressed (and slightly intimidated) by the discussions/theories/views in this thread! All are very interesting points!

I liked this episode. True it wasn't a blockbuster but it was good for character development. Very good acting by Nestor Carbonell. I liked the part at the beginning around the fire when Richard started laughing insanely when they asked him what to do and also when he lost in on Hurley. As well in Sawyer's episode where he was sneaking around in the jungle hiding from Flocke. Like Ben, he is a shadow of his former self... someone who lost his faith and has become truly unhinged. Will he pull it together now and go after MIB?

I liked the scene where Flocke was standing on the hill watching Richard and Hurley... very sinister.

Also liked the scene where MIB smashed the wine bottle - signifying breaking out of his confines...

Interesting that both "sides" say the same thing when they try to have the other killed.

I must say that both Jacob and MIB are very convincing.


A Gift from Agman

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Outfrontgirl on 03-27-10 at 10:58 PM
Read this Fuselage topic for excellent critiques of this episodes ... if in a hurry, skip down to colin72's summary. Colin and several others who hang out in this weekly topic do a great job of pointing out the inconsistencies in character motivation and the plot holes. I haven't been to "didn't love it" for awhile, but this episode was so bad I fled there for comfort.

http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=119385

I cracked up when Colin went to town on Richard's argument that murder is wrong so he shouldn't go kill "the Devil" per MIB's instructions.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by michel on 03-28-10 at 05:47 PM
From the start, I said this episode was disappointing but it isn't as bad as colin says.

Colin writes:
"We find out how the statue was broken. During a storm, a ship hit THE TOP of the statue and cracked it into pieces??? Huh? The huge stone statue cracked and the wooden boat was ok?"

The wave broke the statue.

As for Ricardo's exchange with MIB, I think the point was completely missed. When Ricardo said: "Murder is wrong. That's what brought me here" it was supposed to tell us why MIB is on the island.

Yes, it's a strange answer for someone who thinks he's dead and in hell but consider that Ricardo didn't know what to make of anything he heard. We know he was not very well-educated but deeply religious and completely confused. His true nature came out: He isn't a murderer. That's what we have to know about him. MIB is a murderer. That's what we have to know about him.

And again, I read comments saying Jacob is evil because he brings people to the island and manipulates them. I'm almost certain Jacob brings the island to people to save as many of them as possible from deadly accidents. All those he visited before, he protects as best he can from Smokey by imposing some rules.

"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by Outfrontgirl on 03-29-10 at 08:28 AM
No storm wave would break a statue that had been around for most likely over two thousand years, or even two hundred years.

Plus last season the ship was coming in by daylight and no storm clouds in sight. Nor do we have any hint there was a quake producing a tsunami. In Ab Aeterno it's a storm, and at night.

Here is what I think happened. When they wrote the Finale of Season 2, they showed us the statue, but they didn't want to give away the Egyptian mythology. They wanted to keep us guessing about aliens by showing the four toed ruin.

Then, in Season 5's Finale, it becomes necessary or at least desirable to show Jacob living in the Statue, and to reveal the original form of the deity.

OK, so now they have small kine problem. Statue needs to get broken. Also, we had a cool mystery with the ship way inland, but now we have to show how that happened. Oh, I know, let's bring the ship in on a big wave and hope no one thinks about it too hard. I think you are kidding yourself if you think these writers hold back because of continuity or the logic of physics. They have so much going on with this show, that they are constantly moving people along with something else to think about, and they more or less get away with it.

The scene with Juliet getting dragged into the hole last season was similarly flawed. There was some immense electromagnetic force let loose, which caused a lot of metal to get pulled into the hole including what wrapped around her. But there was all kinds of other metal in the scene that didn't even move.

Meanwhile people are shooting guns and neither the guns or the bullets are even mildly affected by this magnetic force. Why not? Because the writers needed Juliet to get dragged into the pit and they needed the shoot out to happen, and they weren't going to let a little hobgoblin like consistency constrain them.

I still love the show, but I think the criticisms are valid as to how the characters respond to information (pointed out by Colin). The characters get dragged around by the plot points.


"RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.09: "Ab Aeterno""
Posted by dabo on 03-29-10 at 10:45 AM
Hehehe!

Colin certainly has style. ... because Richard is apparently the dumbest, least curious, and easiest person to manipulate in the world.

I honestly loved the depiction of Richard in this episode for basically that reason. For most of the series he's been the mysterious robot pawn of "the island." How'd he get that way was what the episode was about. Throughout the flashback he was shown in a heightened emotional state; concerned about his sick wife, grieving her death, despondent at being condemned (to death and to hell), fearful in chains before and after the wreck, confused and desperate. Then he turns himself over totally to Jacob, basically abandoning his humanity, which returned to him only after Jacob's death which left him again confused and desperate. But by the end he claims his own control, Isabella his constant. This is interesting to me because this opens up Richard as a new character, he has control of himself for the first time in a long life where he has always before been at the whim of forces he could never control.

"Meh"
Posted by moonbaby on 03-28-10 at 07:56 AM
All I can say is:

They have a lot of work to do.


Great posts, here, though. Really enjoyed reading them!


"DocArzt post Ab Aeterno blog..."
Posted by Flowerpower on 03-30-10 at 09:48 AM

the Doc Arzt column here

He comments and raises questions that we do here. But, with a very nice pictorial display.



"RE: DocArzt post Ab Aeterno blog..."
Posted by michel on 03-30-10 at 08:12 PM
Doc wrote:
"The puzzle has shifted now from this kind of arcane fact checking to trying to unravel the bigger questions of good and evil and loving and hating and living and dying."

That's the way I see it also.