"Lee should have been fired" - Reality TV World Message Board Forums

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"Lee should have been fired"

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GWMAC 0 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "New Member"	04-04-06, 01:35 AM (EST)
"Lee should have been fired"
I can understand and appreciate his religous devotion, but why should he get not one, but two free passes from the boardroom? The first time that he missed Lenny made a very good point. Although he is also Jewish, and had even served in the Israeli army, that there are times where you have no choice but to do your job. Now once you are hired I can certainly understand taking a day off for religous ceremonies, but not during an interview. I cannot understand Trump's logic. He said that Bryce should have brought Charmaine and Tarek in instead of Lee and Lenny. Those are two of the people who contributed the most. According to his thinking, the only way to advance to the final few is to do very little, never speak up, and get along with your team. As far as I can recall, even with the few tasks that Lee has been a part of, he did next to nothing. Is it just me or does anyone else think Trump is so afraid of being called anti-semitic that he fired Bryce instead? There is an expression that cream always rises to the top, but there is something else that also floats. If he keeps firing people just because they have some backbone he will get what he deserves.
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Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID

RE: Lee should have been fired iltarion 04-04-06 1

   it's really sad to read dafnaf 04-06-06 62

       RE: it's really sad to read Sly027 06-06-06 145

Ummm... hello? ARnutz 04-04-06 2

   Bingo. mrc 04-04-06 3

   RE: Ummm... hello? Wacko Jacko 04-04-06 4

       RE: Ummm... hello? Sunder 04-04-06 5

           RE: Ummm... hello? tarmaq 04-04-06 31

           oh come on dafnaf 04-06-06 64

               RE: oh come on pbe11 06-05-06 142

                   WARNING - pbe11 Bebo 06-05-06 143

           RE: Ummm... hello? psyche14u 04-09-06 95

       RE: Ummm... hello? ARnutz 04-04-06 6

           RE: Ummm... hello? LIVEURBESTLIFE 04-04-06 8

               RE: Ummm... hello? ARnutz 04-04-06 12

                   RE: Ummm... hello? Kelly_Smith 05-02-06 139

                       RE: Ummm... hello? ARnutz 06-05-06 144

           RE: Ummm... hello? mickeyvon 04-04-06 32

               RE: Ummm... hello? dafnaf 04-06-06 65

       RE: Ummm... hello? dafnaf 04-06-06 63

   Yeah....but davwav02 04-04-06 7

       RE: Yeah....but LIVEURBESTLIFE 04-04-06 9

           RE: Yeah....but davwav02 04-04-06 11

       RE: Yeah....but ARnutz 04-04-06 13

       RE: Yeah....but dafnaf 04-06-06 66

   RE: Ummm... hello? garwilson 04-04-06 27

       Give me a break. dafnaf 04-06-06 67

           RE: Give me a break. Estee 04-06-06 68

               RE: Give me a break. dafnaf 04-06-06 75

                   RE: Give me a break. Estee 04-06-06 76

                       definitely :). dafnaf 04-06-06 77

Just curious. Estee 04-04-06 10

   RE: Just curious. ARnutz 04-04-06 14

       RE: Just curious. Estee 04-04-06 17

           RE: Just curious. ARnutz 04-04-06 19

   RE: Just curious. davwav02 04-04-06 15

       RE: Just curious. ARnutz 04-04-06 18

       RE: Just curious. Keepsitreal 04-04-06 20

           RE: Just curious. Sidecar 04-04-06 23

               RE: Just curious. Estee 04-04-06 25

           RE: Just curious. dafnaf 04-06-06 69

   RE: Just curious. Sidecar 04-04-06 16

       RE: Just curious. Estee 04-04-06 24

           RE: Just curious. Sidecar 04-04-06 26

               RE: Just curious. tarmaq 04-04-06 30

                   RE: Just curious. Sidecar 04-04-06 38

                       RE: Just curious. tarmaq 04-04-06 40

       RE: Just curious. janda3 04-05-06 49

       RE: Just curious. dafnaf 04-06-06 70

   RE: Lee should have been fired realitytvwatcher 04-04-06 22

       RE: Lee should have been fired tarmaq 04-04-06 42

Bottom Line... ARnutz 04-04-06 21

   RE: Bottom Line... GWMAC 04-04-06 28

       RE: Bottom Line... Estee 04-04-06 29

       GWMAC, your argument makes sense to... singer 04-04-06 33

           RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sens... Keepsitreal 04-04-06 34

           RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sens... tarmaq 04-04-06 36

               RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sens... singer 04-05-06 44

                   RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sens... tarmaq 04-05-06 45

                       RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sens... singer 04-05-06 47

                           Agree totally AyaK 04-06-06 78

                               Thanks for your comments... singer 04-07-06 84

                                   You're right AyaK 04-18-06 131

           RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sens... LIVEURBESTLIFE 04-04-06 37

               RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sens... singer 04-05-06 43

RE: Lee should have been fired Keyser 04-04-06 35

   RE: Lee should have been fired bessie 04-04-06 39

       RE: Lee should have been fired Systic Axil 04-09-06 92

           RE: Lee should have been fired qwertypie 04-10-06 104

   RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-06-06 71

RE: Lee should have been fired NewFan 04-04-06 41

   RE: Lee should have been fired iltarion 04-05-06 46

       RE: Lee should have been fired LIVEURBESTLIFE 04-05-06 48

           RE: Lee should have been fired iltarion 04-06-06 50

               RE: Lee should have been fired singer 04-06-06 51

                   RE: Lee should have been fired janda3 04-06-06 52

                       RE: Lee should have been fired qwertypie 04-07-06 81

                   RE: Lee should have been fired JoshInSGV 04-07-06 88

                       RE: Lee should have been fired singer 04-10-06 101

               RE: Lee should have been fired Big Al 04-06-06 53

                   RE: Lee should have been fired mickeyvon 04-06-06 54

               RE: Lee should have been fired tarmaq 04-06-06 55

               RE: Lee should have been fired LIVEURBESTLIFE 04-06-06 59

   RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-06-06 72

RE: Lee should have been fired Keyser 04-06-06 56

   :-0 dafnaf 04-06-06 73

RE: Lee should have been fired Keyser 04-06-06 57

RE: Lee should have been fired skbnwinters 04-06-06 58

   RE: Lee should have been fired LIVEURBESTLIFE 04-06-06 60

       RE: Lee should have been fired adricharlie 04-07-06 83

           RE: Lee should have been fired JoshInSGV 04-07-06 89

   RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-06-06 74

RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-06-06 61

   RE: Lee should have been fired ARnutz 04-06-06 79

       RE: Lee should have been fired iltarion 04-07-06 80

           RE: Lee should have been fired indy42 04-07-06 82

               RE: Lee should have been fired Sunder 04-07-06 85

                   RE: Lee should have been fired Big Al 04-07-06 86

                       Interesting point, Al... singer 04-07-06 87

                   RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-08-06 91

           RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-08-06 90

               RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-09-06 93

                   RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-09-06 94

                       RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-10-06 97

                           RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-10-06 98

                               RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-11-06 107

                           RE: Lee should have been fired janda3 04-10-06 100

                               RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-10-06 103

                               RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-11-06 108

                                   What? dafnaf 04-18-06 123

                                       Comment AyaK 04-18-06 130

                   RE: Lee should have been fired tinkerer 04-10-06 96

                       RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-11-06 109

                   RE: Lee should have been fired janda3 04-10-06 99

                       RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-11-06 110

                           RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-18-06 124

                   RE: Lee should have been fired Big Al 04-10-06 102

                       RE: Lee should have been fired tinkerer 04-10-06 105

                           RE: Lee should have been fired iltarion 04-11-06 106

                               RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-11-06 112

                                   RE: Lee should have been fired Big Al 04-11-06 114

                       RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-11-06 111

                           RE: Lee should have been fired lurker315 04-11-06 113

RE: Lee should have been fired Keyser 04-11-06 115

   RE: Lee should have been fired iltarion 04-12-06 116

       RE: Lee should have been fired tinkerer 04-12-06 117

           RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-17-06 121

               RE: Lee should have been fired ARnutz 04-18-06 127

                   RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-18-06 132

                       RE: Lee should have been fired ARnutz 04-18-06 134

               RE: Lee should have been fired dafnaf 04-18-06 129

                   RE: Lee should have been fired AshLanie 04-18-06 133

       Reply to Keyser tinkerer 04-12-06 118

           RE: Reply to Keyser Pez 04-13-06 119

               lee works Xmas. alyse73 04-14-06 120

                   RE: lee works Xmas. tinkerer 04-18-06 122

                       Did Lee Purposely Choose To Be Proj... tinkerer 04-18-06 125

   RE: Lee should have been fired janda3 04-18-06 126

   I don't care much for Lee, but... dafnaf 04-18-06 128

       It's because George is Jewish janedoe 04-19-06 135

           RE: It's because George is Jewish tinkerer 04-20-06 136

Apology for mistake Keyser 04-25-06 137

   RE: Apology for mistake BeeBe 04-26-06 138

       RE: Apology for mistake tinkerer 05-02-06 140

RE: Lee should have been fired pbe11 06-05-06 141

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Messages in this topic

iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-04-06, 04:09 AM (EST)

1. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Didn't Randall miss one project because his grandma died? So, someone dies, and Randall is pained to miss one task, while Lee takes 2 tasks off for Jewish holidays?? This is effin ridiculous. I am big into religion and respect that, but he knew what he was getting into when he CHOSE to go on the show. Personally, I don't know how you can fire people for their performance on a task, when there is another joker who DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP!
I completely disagree that Charmaine or Tarek should have been fired. Missing one slogan in the lyrics, when you are trying to figure in so many things, is pretty forgivable as far as I am concerned. And Arby's, by the way, I am an expert at fast food chicken, having had it all, and your chicken is very good, but I couldn't care less about Arby's being "all natural." Who eats fast food and gives a crap whether it is natural or not?? No one.
Tarek worked hard on the music and went with a traditional jingle. It was good. Personally, I think it is hard to judge a jingle with a crowd who is going to naturally like the one with louder music, regardless of the fricking words.
Meanwhile, Lenny doesn't even know what a jingle is and Lee ISN'T EVEN THERE!!

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 06:50 PM (EST)

62. "it's really sad to read"

Yom kippur is the most important holiday in the jewish year. Not keeping it is considered a big sin.
Would you abandon your principles and beliefs ?
Would it be ok if you got fired for your beliefs in your workplace?

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Sly027 4 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
06-06-06, 11:17 AM (EST)

145. "RE: it's really sad to read"

I don't have a problem with people's believes, however, when somebody or a TEAM is depending on you for your support, I am sure that GOD (from whatever religion it might be) would understand. Beside, isn't religon a state of mind and soul after all. If Lee wasn't ready to participate fully to all taskings, maybe he should not beeing there. People from all religious believes, must at some point work during religious holidays. In my opinion, Mr. Trump chosed (between the two) the best person (Sean) for the job. Lee has some growing up to do. He is not a Leader, has we seen during the interview.
And yes, if I am hired to performed a task, and I am not there when I am suppose to be there, then it would be fair for the employer to find somebody that will be there when it counts.
Actually, I am in the military, and I am Catholic, yes, I have worked during Christmas and Easter, otherwise I would have been AWOL, charged and possibly gone to jail. So when somebody doesn't hold up to their responsibilties, doesn't matter what religion or race they are, that is not acceptable.

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 08:37 AM (EST)

2. "Ummm... hello?"

U.S. labor laws prohibit employers from firing someone due to religious practices.
http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/Title_41/Part_60-50/41CFR60-50.3.htm
...when such accommodations can be made without undue hardship on the conduct of the employer's business.
The task was still completed. It had no effect on Donald's business whatsoever.
No employer would schedule an "interview" for a person who was Jewish on Yom Kippor. It is the holiest of all Jewish holidays.
Sorry, but if Lee were fired, there would have been a major lawsuit.

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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 08:49 AM (EST)

3. "Bingo."

DT has enough problems of perception without adding religious discrimination to the mix.

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Wacko Jacko 2434 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
04-04-06, 08:59 AM (EST)

4. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

"U.S. labor laws prohibit employers from firing someone due to religious practices."
That is the problem. Although one can argue that Lee would not of actually been fired because in order to be fired you have to first be hired.
But even there he would not be hired based on religion. And that probably is just as bad in the court of law.
Lee should of never been on the show. Maybe Lee will luck out. He will make it to the final two. And a religious Holiday will fall on the task and he will win by default.
Lee signed up for the show and therefore should 'work' on religious holidays or beg off the show.

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Sunder 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 09:22 AM (EST)

5. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

LAST EDITED ON 04-04-06 AT 09:27 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 04-04-06 AT 09:26 AM (EST)
Was it too much political correctness, or does Trump just not have the balls?
Lee, the bum, should have been fired. If you're going to take advantage of every holiday and exception that you can, you should know that your choices of profession are limited.
You cannot be an emergency surgeon if you refuse to save lives on certain days. Something tells me that Trump is the kind of guy that expects some people (Christian or not) to work on Christmas, if it means getting the deal.
This goes for all religions. It's also discrimination against people who do not believe in religion. Why do non-religious people have to work more than people who believe in "something"? These people should get the same number of holidays as religious people, otherwise, just sign me up for whatever religion has the best holidays.
Lee contributed the least by far - twice. I don't want to hear Trump crying at how the people that actually did the work (because it wouldn't get done without them) made them lose and that Lee's chronic absents wasn't the cause. Obviously Trump has never played any sports, or else he'd know playing the whole game with 1 less player on the field than the other team is a serious penalty.

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tarmaq 127 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-04-06, 01:50 PM (EST)

31. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

LAST EDITED ON 04-04-06 AT 01:53 PM (EST)
><[BR>>
>Was it too much political correctness,
>or does Trump just not
>have the balls?
>
>Lee, the bum, should have been
>fired. If you're going to
>take advantage of every holiday
>and exception that you can,
>you should know that your
>choices of profession are limited.
>
>
>You cannot be an emergency surgeon
>if you refuse to save
>lives on certain days. Something
>tells me that Trump is
>the kind of guy that
>expects some people (Christian or
>not) to work on Christmas,
>if it means getting the
>deal.
>
Are you comparing being on "The Apprentice" to being an emergency surgeon? Do you believe it's that important?
I imagine if Lee were an emergency surgeon, he wouldn't have a problem saving someone's life on a holy day. God's Law allows for that kind of emergency. But a TV show? Please.
>This goes for all religions. It's
>also discrimination against people who
>do not believe in religion.
>Why do non-religious people have
>to work more than people
>who believe in "something"? These
>people should get the same
>number of holidays as religious
>people, otherwise, just sign me
>up for whatever religion has
>the best holidays.
>
Generally people at a corporation DO get an equal number of holidays. And there are always personal vacation days as well.
If one is ready to get "canned" because of one's religious beliefs - then one could be awarded the religion's holy days or holidays. Otherwise, one would just look like a conniving opportunist.

>Lee contributed the least by far
>- twice. I don't want
>to hear Trump crying at
>how the people that actually
>did the work (because it
>wouldn't get done without them)
>made them lose and that
>Lee's chronic absents wasn't the
>cause. Obviously Trump has never
>played any sports, or else
>he'd know playing the whole
>game with 1 less player
>on the field than the
>other team is a serious
>penalty.
Trump was well aware of the dates. He chose to make it an issue to add controversy. Let's place blame where blame is due.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:03 PM (EST)

64. "oh come on"

Judaism demands doing anything in order to save lives, even if it's Yom kippur (-not just every holiday, but the most important one to the jewish people). You can't compare a life threatning situation to a job interview, and I can't believe you did that.
Christmas is nothing like any Jewish Holiday. I'm guessing you aren't familiar with yom kippur, for it isn't a merry holiday, it is a day when jews are fasting and not using electricty nor tranportation or anything. On Christmas you can do whatever you want. That comparison is plain dumb.
I don't observe the Jewish holidays, and have no religion beliefs, but I'm well aware that people consider religion as a very important and non-negotiable part of their lives.
Firing Lee over this will be the same as fire anyone for any belief: wrong.

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pbe11 3 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
06-05-06, 10:05 AM (EST)

142. "RE: oh come on"

>Christmas is nothing like any Jewish
>Holiday. I'm guessing you aren't
>familiar with yom kippur, for
>it isn't a merry holiday,
>it is a day when
>jews are fasting and not
>using electricty nor tranportation or
>anything. On Christmas you can
>do whatever you want. That
>comparison is plain dumb.
Good Friday is also not the merriest day but it has been systematically taken off the holiday list as well. News flash, the American workplace has little tolerance for religion anymore period. No one took Good Friday off- the day Jesus was on the Cross.
In a perfect world people would not be persecuted for their religion- i.e. the point of the separation of church and state. Private business can do what they want, basically.
Plus I resent that Christmas and Yom Kippur do not seem on the same level to you. It's not a matter of comparision of how "serious" the day seems. It's equally insensitive of you trying to de-legitmize a Christian holiday to strengten your argument.
Grow up.

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Bebo 20880 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
06-05-06, 12:43 PM (EST)

143. "WARNING - pbe11 "

Please read our guidelines - there's a link at the top of the page. While you are welcome to post dissenting opinions, you are expected to do so without bashing or criticizing the poster. If you cannot do so, you will not be permitted to continue posting here.

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psyche14u 9 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
04-09-06, 10:00 PM (EST)

95. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

I absolutely agree. Lee should have been fired. I am not religious. what about my rights?

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 09:32 AM (EST)

6. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

Whether you think it's right or wrong that he took the day off, bottom line is Burnett & Trump chose to include him in the pool of 18 candidates this season and therefore knew this was a possiblity.
If they had a problem with it, they would've/should've excluded him.

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LIVEURBESTLIFE 302 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
04-04-06, 09:44 AM (EST)

8. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

Arnutz,
Not including Lee as a contestant because of his religion would be discrimination. In this country it is against the law for someone to be fired or have their job negatively impacted due to thier religious beliefs.
For some, religion is not important and for others it is. If someone is as devout as Lee he shouldn't be penalized for it.
At least, he took responsibility and told Trump that he didn't want a pass. Tarek actually said he thought Bryce should be fired even though he messed up. Charmaine didn't take any responsibility for her mess ups at all.
Tarek and Charmaine should have been in the boardroom.

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 10:00 AM (EST)

12. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

Yes, exactly!
This is what I've been trying to say.
...but if they didn't want this to be an issue on the show, they would've/could've/should've chosen some other candidate in his spot. Now that he is on the show, they cannot publicly discriminate against him on the show by firing him for this reason. I don't care whether he is actually "hired" at this point or not, he cannot be "fired" from the show because he took time off for religious holidays.
I totally agree with you, Tarek & Charmaine should've been in the BR.

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Kelly_Smith 169 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
05-02-06, 10:56 AM (EST)

139. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

>Yes, exactly!
>
>This is what I've been trying to say.
>
>...but if they didn't want this to be an issue on the show, they would've/could've/should've chosen some other candidate in his spot. Now that he is on the show, they cannot
>publicly discriminate against him on the show by firing him
>for this reason. I don't care whether he is actually "hired" at this point or not, he cannot be "fired" from the show because he
>took time off for religious holidays.
>
>I totally agree with you, Tarek & Charmaine should've been in the BR.

Whether it's ON the show or BEFORE the show, NOT selecting someone because you think their religious holidays will interfere with the process IS discrimination and is illegal. Whether it's behind closed doors or on national TV. You don't seem to get that..

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
06-05-06, 09:34 PM (EST)

144. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

LAST EDITED ON 06-05-06 AT 09:42 PM (EST)
I do not believe you are correct. There is no law saying an applicant MUST be granted an interview if they apply for a job. If we equate "before" the show with the "application" portion of a job search, then the producers could have excluded Lee as a candidate in the first place by not even allowing him a casting call or never giving him a callback or whatever. We pretty much have to look at it this way because "the interview" is "the show".
Many applications are tossed in garbage cans across the world for things like this. Is it wrong? Sure, from an ethical standpoint. ...but is it done all.the.time? Absolutely! The employer takes a sample of applicants that meet the requirements for the job and forms a diverse group to set up interviews (thus avoiding any discrimination), the rest of the people will likely never even get a phone call or letter with an explanation as to why. If that reason was religious? Well then they have to prove it. If they want to sue in a court of law, as the plaintiff they bear the burden of proof. I've certainly never heard of any of that happening. Unless it was proven they discriminated. (Any lawyers out there?)
On a reality show, when people apply, the application says right on it, something to the effect of, "must be available from September through November for a total of 60 consecutive days" or whatever the schedule is. It lists requirements. Have you ever read one? Lee applied knowing he would have a conflict, which I'm sure he advised the producers of.
The producers had the power to not have Lee as a candidate at many points before the show aired, but chose, instead, to set the whole thing up to cause drama and contoversy both on the show and among viewers. It was also, likely, a gimmick to make Donald look more politically correct.
So, what exactly do I not get?

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mickeyvon 35 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-04-06, 02:38 PM (EST)

32. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

I disagree.
Lee is one of 18 candidates for a job interview. So he'll miss 2 of the sixteen or so challenges. It doesn't matter what order they are eliminated, just who gets the job in the end. So if Lee was qualified to make it to the show, and he has to miss 2 challenges along the way, so be it. He'll either prove himself in all the other challenges, or he won't. Fire somebody who actually participated in this week's challenge, and judge Lee when he actually showcases his skills.
What if Trump fired Randall for missing a challenge for his grandmother's funeral? It would've been his loss.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:07 PM (EST)

65. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

I agree.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 06:53 PM (EST)

63. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

from what I know, most jewish people observe yom kippur.
So you're basically saying that no Jew must ever apply this show, or any other job interview that might occur during the jewish holidays?

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davwav02 401 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
04-04-06, 09:43 AM (EST)

7. "Yeah....but"

As noted above, this is still the interview process. I've always thought of it as strange that he would fire people, even though none of them have been hired yet. Well that's a discussion for another thread.
The point I'm trying to make here is that, as noted on various sites that talk about the 'ins and outs' of reality shows, as well as in an application for most shows, they include a part of the contract the disallows lawsuits against others when it comes to defamation, and in some cases discrimination. Being that it is a TV show, it would be very boring (more so than usual), if contestants would be fearful of what they could say to one another, knowing it was being recorded and may be used against them in the form of a lawsuit later.
Similar to when Trump asked a contestant last season if he was a virgin, the incident on last nights show would be considered discriminatory in any other environment and grounds for a potential lawsuit, but in this case, by applying and agreeing to be on the show, contestants surrender their rights to sue. Therefore, in response to the original thread, Trump could fire whoever he wanted to, even if that meant getting rid of Lee as a result of Lee's observing a Jewish holiday.

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LIVEURBESTLIFE 302 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
04-04-06, 09:48 AM (EST)

9. "RE: Yeah....but"

If Trump had fired Lee he would have had a major public image crisis on his hands.
He did the right thing by sticking to the real world rules and laws regardless of some tv show contract.
Trump is arrogant not stupid.

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davwav02 401 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
04-04-06, 09:57 AM (EST)

11. "RE: Yeah....but"

Yes, I do agree with you on that. It became obvious very quickly that Trump was not going to fire Lee last night. And based on what kind of PR would have resulted, I don't believe he should have either. The argument I was making was in response to the posting above stating that Trump could have been sued for firing Lee.

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 10:09 AM (EST)

13. "RE: Yeah....but"

Ok, so Lee could not sue him personally, but don't you think you would have millions of Jewish groups suing him? Not only that, but a Federal lawsuit could be brought against him. It doesn't matter. The possibility of a lawsuit is there from many sources.
Bottom line, Lee taking a religious holiday DID NOT LOSE THIS TASK!
Peeps want to call this an interview, fine ...and as I said in my previous post up there, an employer (or a potential employer) would NEVER schedule an "interview" for a Jewish person on Yom Kippor. Just like a Christian would not expect an interview to be held on Christmas.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:11 PM (EST)

66. "RE: Yeah....but"

he could, he would be bashed, but he could. But then again George is also missing because of the Jewish Holidays. These holidays are extremely important to the Jewish religious people, it would have been very wrong to fire Lee over that.

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garwilson 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 11:52 AM (EST)

27. "RE: Ummm... hello?"

>No employer would schedule an "interview"
>for a person who was
>Jewish on Yom Kippor. It
>is the holiest of all
>Jewish holidays.
Give me a break. Lee and Lenny are both Jewish. Lee again pulls the holiday card, while Lenny chooses to stay and work through the task to the best of his ability. For that, Lee again gets a "get out of being fired" pass, but Lenny's head is possibly on the chopping block? This is insane!
>Sorry, but if Lee were fired,
>there would have been a
>major lawsuit.
The word "fired" is only for effect. They were never hired in the first place -- it's just the "game show" section of the interview.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:15 PM (EST)

67. "Give me a break."

Lenny simply doesn't believe as much as Lee does. Lee probably believes that he will burn in hell if he worked or he didn't fast on yom kippur. That's the religious belief, and Lenny obviously doen't believe that. It doesn't mean Lenny is better or a harder-working person, it only means that he doesn't share the same beliefs, he is not a religious person. Most Jewish people observe yom kippur, it isn't as common as Shabbat (some jewish people don't use electricity or transpotation every saturday!).

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-06-06, 07:21 PM (EST)

68. "RE: Give me a break."

LAST EDITED ON 04-06-06 AT 07:30 PM (EST)
Lee probably believes that he will burn in hell if he worked or he didn't fast on yom kippur.
Just for the record, Judaism doesn't have a hell (in the classic sense, anyway. Fire & brimstone not included). Which, when you think about it, is actually a really major selling point towards conversion...

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:55 PM (EST)

75. "RE: Give me a break."

I am jewish, and as far as I know (I've been to a religious all-girs school in Israel, and was taught by rabbis) Jews do believe in hell, or in transmigration of souls, depends on who you ask.
I used 'burning in hell' for exaggeration, but you got the basic point.

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
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04-06-06, 08:05 PM (EST)

76. "RE: Give me a break."

LAST EDITED ON 04-06-06 AT 08:08 PM (EST)
From what I know of the Judaic afterlife, negative regions thereof, it's pretty light on the eternal punishment department: more waiting room than Dante memorial tour. But -- as you said, depends on who you ask. (You can generally get an argument for 'What afterlife?' inside ten minutes.) Besides, 'Oh, hell' is a lot quicker to say than 'Oh, generally negative region of the afterlife.'

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
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04-06-06, 08:13 PM (EST)

77. "definitely :)."

basically I don't recall any descriptions about what actually happens in hell according to the Jewish beliefs, but I hear it isn't so good.

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
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04-04-06, 09:50 AM (EST)

10. "Just curious."

Let's say Lee's a devout Christian, the task took place during Easter, and Lee asked out for both Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday. Would we have one thread questioning whether he should even be on the show, let alone if he should have been fired for not showing up?
('I await with interest what will probably be an echoing silence.' Unlikely, but still a decent quote for the occasion.)

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 10:11 AM (EST)

14. "RE: Just curious."

Yeah! What she said!
...but Christmas is a better comparison, IMO.

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
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04-04-06, 10:18 AM (EST)

17. "RE: Just curious."

I know, but I needed two fairly big days falling within a short period, and while there's things in and around Christmas, most people don't know what they are...

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 10:24 AM (EST)

19. "RE: Just curious."

I see. Understood.
I just think peeps are missing the point of how important this holiday is in the Jewish religion. Seems they may not live among large Jewish populations.

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davwav02 401 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
04-04-06, 10:14 AM (EST)

15. "RE: Just curious."

I think a matter such as this should be based on the judgement of the potential contestant applying for the show. I think they have every right to apply, but should be ready to accept that their lack of participation may adversely affect them later in that game.
Although they may not be fired directly as a result of their absences, the other contestants may begin to become agitated by their behavior and attempt to get them out of the game by other means, an indirect result of their lack of participation in several instances.
In scenario two, the team could discover that they function well without the team member, and/or there could be a large shift in the team dynamics while the team member is absent, and he may return and suddenly be somewhat out of place, and as a result, be put in an adverse position. (Although, if I've heard correctly, there shouldn't be any further absences of the same nature this season).
All arguments aside, I return to my original statement that if contestants are willing to enter into this situation with conditions attached to their participation, they should be will to accept that it may adversely affect them at some point.

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 10:21 AM (EST)

18. "RE: Just curious."

I totally see your point, and I just want to add:
Lee was perfectly willing to accept being fired. He said something to that effect (as I seem to recall) in the suite before the boardroom. He didn't whine or complain about being brought back to the boardroom either.
Donald thought he should not be fired and he is the one with the final word.

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Keepsitreal 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 10:26 AM (EST)

20. "RE: Just curious."

As I mentioned on another thread, the Jewish aspect of the show this season is a very real problem.
Most of the viewers of this show don't understand the Jewish holidays and even trying to compare them to Christmas, Easter and Ash Wednesday don't make a decent comparision. Yom Kippur, is the MOST important holiday in the Jewish religion. A practicing Jew, even in the most reformed sect of the religion, isn't supposed to work, spends most of the day in temple and doesn't eat for 24 hours. That description can not relate how seriously a Jew takes this High Holy Day and non-jews will never understand.
My belief is that this season, the producers took a calculated (but very stupid) risk to draw renewed attention to the show by creating controversy regarding the jewish holidays. I think we can safely assume that there've been other Jewish candidates and the producers chose to not create issues/confusion in prior seasons by working around the holidays. This season, they filmed during them... I believe this was calculated.
Unfortunately, since outside of their world.. New York/Los Angelos... all they did was create confusion.
Big mistake.

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Sidecar 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 10:34 AM (EST)

23. "RE: Just curious."

>As I mentioned on another thread,
> Yom
>Kippur, is the MOST important
>holiday in the Jewish religion.
> A practicing Jew, even
>in the most reformed sect
>of the religion, isn't supposed
>to work, spends most of
>the day in temple and
>doesn't eat for 24 hours.
> That description can not
>relate how seriously a Jew
>takes this High Holy Day
>and non-jews will never understand.
>
>
I beleive you. BUT Lee took this assignmnet KNOWING it would fall on the holiest of days. WHY? If he was really that devout it would be on his radar, "Hey, I cant do this show, it falls on the holiest of holy days"

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 10:43 AM (EST)

25. "RE: Just curious."

Because like so maybe other people, he thought Hollywood was dominated by the Liberal Jewish/Zionist Conspiracy and there was no way they'd film on the High Holy Days?
He probably believed he'd be able to take the days off without penalty if he made it that far into the show, and it wouldn't surprise me if he'd checked with the producers first to make sure it wasn't an issue. (Censored), maybe he just believed he'd never get that many tasks in...

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:28 PM (EST)

69. "RE: Just curious."

LAST EDITED ON 04-06-06 AT 08:14 PM (EST)
good point. I also think it was a bad idea.
I don't live in the US, but a friend of mine who does, doesn't take any Holidays off - although he can take them off in addition to the christian Holidays, he isn't a very religious person, so EXCEPT for Yom Kippur - he never takes a day off for the Jewish Holidays. Although he would really like to spend that time with his family.
The reason why he does this is because he doen't want the other employees in the company to look at him like Bryce and some of you people did. And he does that although spending time with his family on the holidays is very important to him.
I'm just glad I live in a place where nobody will judge me for not working on the holidays, because we all share the same holidays.

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Sidecar 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 10:18 AM (EST)

16. "RE: Just curious."

Lets say there was $250K on the line to show up that day! I bet Lee would show up and so would you, on Easter. I think, Lee knew in advance he wouldnt be fired for not showing up.

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 10:39 AM (EST)

24. "RE: Just curious."

Sure, I'd probably show up to collect my $250k on Easter, but I'm not Christian, so missing church isn't anywhere near my issues list. I'm not Jewish either, so if you want to give me another quarter-million in Yom Kippur, let me know. (I have equal devotion to questioning all faiths.) But the money isn't the issue. (Neither is 'The Jew would have shown up for money', which is how I'm choosing not to read your post: let's hope no one takes it the wrong way.) The issue is purely a religious one, and I picked Christianity because collectively, its many branches form the majority faith of the nation. If this was the India version of the show, I could have trotted another holiday. China, still another. The question still applies: is it wrong to take the day off when it's the minority faith, but right if it's the majority? Welcome to the First: hope you enjoy your stay.
However, I'll freely give you this: I think Lee did know he wasn't going to be fired that night. Not only did Donald not want to risk the inevitable public censorship and boycotts if he'd pulled the religion card out of the deck and torn it in half, but he had a more immediate and personal connection in his hand. Did you notice George wasn't there last night? He took the New Year off, too, and for the same reason Lee and Dan did. Donald's used to the comings and goings of a particular religion's celebrations. It costs him nothing to shrug about two, or at least no more than it takes to shrug over one.
Lee, however, is now pretty much out of High Holy Days for a while -- unless the 'fifteen-week job interview' somehow took place over a full year this time...

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Sidecar 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 11:49 AM (EST)

26. "RE: Just curious."

>.
>(Neither is 'The Jew would
>have shown up for money',
>which is how I'm choosing
>not to read your post:
> let's hope no one
>takes it the wrong way.)
No that was not my intention which is why I included Easter, which I belive is considered the holiest of days for Christians
>>the day off when it's
>the minority faith, but right
>if it's the majority?
>Welcome to the First:
>hope you enjoy your stay.
My point was that in the "real world" top executives work 24x7 365 if needed. No matter what the holiday, family obligation or whatever. It is not fair or PC, but it is so.
>
>
>However, I'll freely give you this:
> I think Lee did
>know he wasn't going to
>be fired that night.
>
I agree with you 110% !

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tarmaq 127 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-04-06, 01:37 PM (EST)

30. "RE: Just curious."

LAST EDITED ON 04-04-06 AT 01:39 PM (EST)
>>.
>>(Neither is 'The Jew would
>>have shown up for money',
>>which is how I'm choosing
>>not to read your post:
>> let's hope no one
>>takes it the wrong way.)
>
>No that was not my intention
>which is why I included
>Easter, which I belive is
>considered the holiest of days
>for Christians
You cannot hope to appreciate the gravity and seriousness of Yom Kippur unless you actually keep God's holy days. To compare it with Christmas doesn't begin to cut it - and to compare it to Easter doesn't cut it either. I grew up all my life observing Christmas and Easter - but they were not "holy" days commanded by God in His Law. I would work with a clean conscience on those days, because they were days man had set aside to observe. Now, I am what I guess you could call a "Messianic" Jew - someone who still has Christian beliefs but beliees that we are to keep God's Laws, including the holy days. (I don't even keep Christmas or Easter anymore.) I don't care how much money you threw at me - I wouldn't be choose DT over Yom Kippur! Period! And I would have cleared it with TPTB before ever agreeing to be part of "the apprentice". I'm sure Lee did.
>
>
>My point was that in the
>"real world" top executives work
>24x7 365 if needed.
>No matter what the holiday,
>family obligation or whatever.
>It is not fair or
>PC, but it is so.
>
If they were firemen or what not and 911 happened, then maybe. A disaster, yes. But for a "TV show"????? Not in a million years.
>>
>>However, I'll freely give you this:
>> I think Lee did
>>know he wasn't going to
>>be fired that night.
>>
>
>I agree with you 110% !
>
I'll also agree on that.

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Sidecar 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 03:15 PM (EST)

38. "RE: Just curious."

>LAST EDITED ON 04-04-06
>AT 01:39 PM (EST)
>
>
>You cannot hope to appreciate the
>gravity and seriousness of Yom
>Kippur unless you actually keep
>God's holy days.
Kind of condesending. You dont know what is in anyone else's mind. But we are just talking about a TV show here, so no offense taken
> I
>wouldn't be choose DT over
>Yom Kippur! Period! And I
>would have cleared it with
>TPTB before ever agreeing to
>be part of "the apprentice".
> I'm sure Lee did.
Lee should have said that in his confessional! But, it is just a TV SHOW, after all...
>
>>
>>
>>My point was that in the
>>"real world" top executives work
>>24x7 365 if needed.
>>No matter what the holiday,
>>family obligation or whatever.
>>It is not fair or
>>PC, but it is so.
>>
>If they were firemen or what
>not and 911 happened, then
>maybe. A disaster, yes. But
>for a "TV show"????? Not
>in a million years.
>
Top exectuives DO work on holidays and weekends. That was my point. I think that is what all these Apprentices are aspiring supposedly aspiring too, but Yeah it is just a TV SHOW
>>>
>>>However, I'll freely give you this:
>>> I think Lee did
>>>know he wasn't going to
>>>be fired that night.
>>>
>>
>>I agree with you 110% !
>>
>
>I'll also agree on that.
Just a TV show, poor Lee was just following a script!

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tarmaq 127 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-04-06, 05:26 PM (EST)

40. "RE: Just curious."

>>LAST EDITED ON 04-04-06
>>AT 01:39 PM (EST)
>>
>>
>>You cannot hope to appreciate the
>>gravity and seriousness of Yom
>>Kippur unless you actually keep
>>God's holy days.
>
>Kind of condesending. You dont
>know what is in anyone
>else's mind. But we
>are just talking about a
>TV show here, so no
>offense taken
>
How is that being condescending? Can I hope to appreciate what it's like to be in Darfur if I'm not in Darfur? Can I appreciate what it's like to grow up in Cuba if I haven't grown up in Cuba? Can I hope to understand what it's like to be a victim of a home invasion if I haven't been a victim of a home invasion? Can anyone hope to understand what it's like to celebrate Christmas if they've never celebrated Christmas? And back to my point, how can anyone hope to understand what it's like to honor Yom Kippur if they've never done so?

>> I
>>wouldn't be choose DT over
>>Yom Kippur! Period! And I
>>would have cleared it with
>>TPTB before ever agreeing to
>>be part of "the apprentice".
>> I'm sure Lee did.
>
>Lee should have said that in
>his confessional! But, it
>is just a TV SHOW,
>after all...
>
>>
He might have. We don't know. Editing was not up to him.
>>>
>>>My point was that in the
>>>"real world" top executives work
>>>24x7 365 if needed.
>>>No matter what the holiday,
>>>family obligation or whatever.
>>>It is not fair or
>>>PC, but it is so.
>>>
>>If they were firemen or what
>>not and 911 happened, then
>>maybe. A disaster, yes. But
>>for a "TV show"????? Not
>>in a million years.
>>
>Top exectuives DO work on holidays
>and weekends. That was
>my point. I think
>that is what all these
>Apprentices are aspiring supposedly aspiring
>too, but Yeah it is
>just a TV SHOW
Top executives have the choice as to when they work. They don't ALL work on holidays and weekends. To say so is a vast overgeneralization. Everyone makes choices. To be "at the top" means one has the freedom to say "no" to working on a particular day. Look at George. Was HE on the show that day?
"Top executives" have pretty much earned the respect of others to the point that if something is a religious conviction, it's generally honored.
>
>>>>
>>>>However, I'll freely give you this:
>>>> I think Lee did
>>>>know he wasn't going to
>>>>be fired that night.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I agree with you 110% !
>>>
>>
>>I'll also agree on that.
>
>Just a TV show, poor Lee
>was just following a script!
<hands in the air> To reduce Lee's following his convictions to "following a script" is not fair on so many levels. Lee was not trying to "make good TV" - he was merely following his conscience.

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janda3 87 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-05-06, 11:13 PM (EST)

49. "RE: Just curious."

You just don't get it! An orthodox Jew wouldn't sell his soul for money or anything. Yom Kippur is Called the Day of Atonement. It is also called the Day of judgement. This is the day that G-d judges for all of our past doings,whether it may be good deeds or bad. Picture a scale weighing out your good deeds verses your bad deeds. This is your life here! In one of the holiest prayers on that day, it says "Who shall live & who shall die; who shall come to a timely end & who to an untimely end? Who shall perish by fire & who by water? Who by sword & who by beast?" Get the picture now? This is the day that G-d decides your future for the year & the rest of your life. And the only way that you can change the scales to go in your favor is by intense prayer.
Now, does all that equal to money?

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:30 PM (EST)

70. "RE: Just curious."

LAST EDITED ON 04-06-06 AT 08:03 PM (EST)
that's just an assumption.
You just assume that Lee would give up on his principles for money. I don't think most Jewish people would do that, since they believe the alternative is getting a punishment from god.
So whats 250$ if the alternative is burning in hell for eternity?

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realitytvwatcher 77 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-04-06, 10:31 AM (EST)

22. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Although I am not impressed with Lee I don't think he should have been fired last night. The timeline of the tasks appear to be at least two days - one to get it together and another to do the presentation. The producers of the show obviously wanted to make Lee's religious devotion an issue otherwise they would have planned the tasks to take place on more convenient days.
With that said, I feel that Lenny should have been the one fired last night. He did not contribute to the task at all. I applaud Bill for calling him out on using the fact that he is from another country as a crutch - as do many foreign workers. He admitted to living in the U.S. for 14 years! If I were Trump I would now be apprehensive about possibly hiring Lenny. What else is he not familiar with? Trump says "Lenny, please update your Blackberry with the new contact info" Lenny replies "Blackberry? How do I write on blackberry? When I left Russia over 14 years ago, we ate blackberries. Here in America they write on them. I'm so confused".
Tarek & Charmaigne stepped up and at least tried.

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tarmaq 127 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-04-06, 06:01 PM (EST)

42. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

>With that said, I feel that
>Lenny should have been the
>one fired last night.
>He did not contribute to
>the task at all.
>I applaud Bill for calling
>him out on using the
>fact that he is from
>another country as a crutch
>- as do many foreign
>workers. He admitted to
>living in the U.S. for
>14 years! If I
>were Trump I would now
>be apprehensive about possibly hiring
>Lenny. What else is
>he not familiar with? Trump
>says "Lenny, please update your
>Blackberry with the new contact
>info" Lenny replies "Blackberry? How
>do I write on blackberry?
> When I left Russia
>over 14 years ago, we
>ate blackberries. Here in
>America they write on them.
> I'm so confused".
>
>Tarek & Charmaigne stepped up and
>at least tried.
ICAM! Show me a 14year old in America that couldn't be educated as to what a "jingle" is in less than a minute! That's how long Lenny has been here! As far as, "I don't know which American words rhyme" there are places like www.rhymezone.com that make those things REALLY easy.
Lenny's playing dumb like a fox. Definitely working the "I don't understand this culture" card. When it really shouldn't be relevant anymore, since he's been here so long.

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 10:30 AM (EST)

21. "Bottom Line..."

Lee should not have been fired because him taking a religious holiday did not lose this task!
...and frankly, if he were there, I don't think he could've fixed that stupid jingle and allowed them to win.
...and now, I must walk away before my blood pressure rises more than it already has. Have a nice day, folks!

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GWMAC 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 12:34 PM (EST)

28. "RE: Bottom Line..."

Look at it from another angle. Did Bryce, Tarek, and Charmaine contribute more towards winning the task than Lee or Lenny? Of course they did. I am not the best at sports analogies, but if this were a basbeabll game, yes they lost by a few runs, but if you have to make one cut on your team..Would you cut the players who have stepped up to the plate and consistently hit for a decent average or one who was injured in two of the games and played poorly in the other games? let's not forget that Lee was not exactly anything special on the tasks he did perform in. Basically he stood around and did nothing and then tried to steal credit when Bill came around. Even if we take the holidays out of the equation, I think you could justify firing him for his previous performances. Can anyone seriously argue that Lee or Lenny seem more qualified than Bryce? Bryce seemed to have more intelligence, poise, and business acumen by far. Granted he might not win any jingle awards, but like he said his strengths are more real business related and in the field of real estate. People who contribute nothing to the tasks are the ones who should be brought to the boardroom period. The logic of bringing the only team members who did anything is insane and means that you reward the least talented members by allowing them to stay.

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-04-06, 12:39 PM (EST)

29. "RE: Bottom Line..."

and means that you reward the least talented members by allowing them to stay.
Maybe they think they're on Survivor?

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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-04-06, 02:48 PM (EST)

33. "GWMAC, your argument makes sense to me..."

on a functional level. On a game theoretic level, however, it may work less well. The Donald only analysed across the actual participants in the game and made a decision based on that. He refused to pay attention to the real impact of a player's absence from the game on the final outcome. He then created a lose-lose choice situation for Bryce by penalising him for refusing to get rid of the best players and for bringing the weakest players to the boardroom. The Donald's strategy works well for a game board. It does not factor the effects of social/cultural behaviour in its outcome (Lee's decision NOT to participate in the game for religious reasons). Bryce could not win in such a scenario, because of his refusal to analyse from The Donald's framework, rather than his own morally-loaded framework. (The one that says, "I will not turn on my team members who actually worked hard on the task. I will not turn on them, because it is morally incorrect for me to do so.")
It may very well be that to win this game, players must analyse from within The Donald's framework. And a refusal to see THAT may have been Bryce's death knell in this game.
I always winge about Mark Burnett and his editing practices, and I agree with other posters that he probably filmed this 24-hour task on a high religious holiday to build a controversial story arc about Lee, who, regardless of ethnic and religious background, is a mediocre player. It is ridiculous for Burnett not to highlight the latter fact, while focusing instead on Lee's cultural beliefs and practices. This focus might make sense for a manager in a work environment; they make less sense in an interview situation. Burnett should not have filmed on this religious holiday.
Bryce is a much better leader than I expected, and somehow he got his team to work well together. He seems more effective than Lee or Lenny at this point, even though I would love it if Lenny wins. I just think he's funny, and I suspect that he is a very talented person.
On another point, I love the fact that Bryce was sarcastic with The Donald in the boardroom, and I love the fact that he was not interested in throwing the real workers under the bus. I didn't like him earlier in the season. I respect him now.
I hate the fact that Burnett and Trump are now manipulating religion to get ratings, just as I hate the way that they manipulated race and eating disorders in other episodes and seasons.
--Singer
PS I wish that Charmaine would stop crying so much. I think that Martha Stewart would agree.

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Keepsitreal 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-04-06, 03:00 PM (EST)

34. "RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sense to me..."

LAST EDITED ON 04-04-06 AT 03:03 PM (EST)
>Bryce is a much better leader
>than I expected, and somehow
>he got his team to
>work well together.
I didn't find Bryce to be a good leader. His crucial mistake, the one that made him the only correct choice to be fired was that he couldn't get his (spell edit)team to a meeting with the decision-makers on time. That was the only true "mistake" made that could have cost them the task, by giving the other team a small advantage. It could be simply coincidence that this team worked well together this week, not Bryce's leadership.
>
>On another point, I love the
>fact that Bryce was sarcastic
>with The Donald in the
>boardroom, and I love the
>fact that he was not
>interested in throwing the real
>workers under the bus.
>I didn't like him earlier
>in the season. I
>respect him now.
Bryce lost it in the boardroom. It might make for good TV to get sarcastic with an interviewer, but in the real world its sure to lose you the job. Bryce's "get tough" act would have been far more enjoyable to watch if he hadn't dissolved into a mumbling, fumbling, incoherent fool after he lost his temper.
If he had brought the real workers into the boardroom, he knew the outcome would still be that he would be fired. He brought Lenny in just to give Trump another choice (due to DT's comments on Lenny in prior episodes), Trump made the correct choice for this week's episode. If he felt Bryce was his candidate, he probably would have found a way to get to Lenny in the boardroom instead.
>
>I hate the fact that Burnett
>and Trump are now manipulating
>religion to get ratings, just
>as I hate the way
>that they manipulated race and
>eating disorders in other episodes
>and seasons.
Agree 100%... let's not forget his virgin comment last season. Bad form!
>
>--Singer
>
>PS I wish that Charmaine would
>stop crying so much.
>I think that Martha Stewart
>would agree.

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tarmaq 127 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-04-06, 03:12 PM (EST)

36. "RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sense to me..."

>on a functional level. On
>a game theoretic level, however,
>it may work less well.
> The Donald only analysed
>across the actual participants in
>the game and made a
>decision based on that.
>He refused to pay attention
>to the real impact of
>a player's absence from the
>game on the final outcome.
> He then created a
>lose-lose choice situation for Bryce
>by penalising him for refusing
>to get rid of the
>best players and for bringing
>the weakest players to the
>boardroom. The Donald's strategy
>works well for a game
>board. It does not
>factor the effects of social/cultural
>behaviour in its outcome (Lee's
>decision NOT to participate in
>the game for religious reasons).
> Bryce could not win
>in such a scenario, because
>of his refusal to analyse
>from The Donald's framework, rather
>than his own morally-loaded framework.
>(The one that says, "I
>will not turn on my
>team members who actually worked
>hard on the task.
>I will not turn on
>them, because it is morally
>incorrect for me to do
>so.")
>
>It may very well be that
>to win this game, players
>must analyse from within The
>Donald's framework. And a
>refusal to see THAT may
>have been Bryce's death knell
>in this game.
>
>I always winge about Mark Burnett
>and his editing practices, and
>I agree with other posters
>that he probably filmed this
>24-hour task on a high
>religious holiday to build a
>controversial story arc about Lee,
>who, regardless of ethnic and
>religious background, is a mediocre
>player. It is ridiculous
>for Burnett not to highlight
>the latter fact, while focusing
>instead on Lee's cultural beliefs
>and practices. This focus
>might make sense for a
>manager in a work environment;
>they make less sense in
>an interview situation. Burnett
>should not have filmed on
>this religious holiday.
>
>Bryce is a much better leader
>than I expected, and somehow
>he got his team to
>work well together. He
>seems more effective than Lee
>or Lenny at this point,
>even though I would love
>it if Lenny wins.
>I just think he's funny,
>and I suspect that he
>is a very talented person.
>
>
>On another point, I love the
>fact that Bryce was sarcastic
>with The Donald in the
>boardroom, and I love the
>fact that he was not
>interested in throwing the real
>workers under the bus.
>I didn't like him earlier
>in the season. I
>respect him now.
>
>I hate the fact that Burnett
>and Trump are now manipulating
>religion to get ratings, just
>as I hate the way
>that they manipulated race and
>eating disorders in other episodes
>and seasons.
>
>--Singer
Singer, I completely agree with everything you said above! Very well put.
>
>PS I wish that Charmaine would
>stop crying so much.
>I think that Martha Stewart
>would agree.
I can understand the above point. However, I would say there is a good reason she does cry more than most of the others.
Looking at this from personal experience... I am a songwriter/musician and definitely have my melancholy side... and have finally figured that this is an advantage when being a songwriter. It helps me writer better songs because of how deeply I can feel the emotions. If Charmaine is creative enough to be writing the song, she's probably going to be more emotional than most. You didn't see Lenny out writing the music.
You take the good with the bad. It's hard to be emotional enough to write a song yet stoic enough to let nothing touch you. (I realize that the jingle was not the most "emotional" of lyrics - but the bottom line is, the same person would probably be assigned to write an emotional lyric as an advertising one. It's about that creative thought process.)

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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-05-06, 10:12 AM (EST)

44. "RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sense to me..."

I see your point, Tarmaq. Interesting perspective, and I agree that keeping the balance is tough. It seems almost impossible.
I've been in opera workshops where experts coach us to keep our emotions just below the surface, while simultaneously telling us to be as "cold and analytical as ice" while singing solos. It really is a tough balance.
I definitely see where you are coming from. I still wonder if Charmaine will make it if she allows The Donald to see this part of her personality.
--Singer

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tarmaq 127 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-05-06, 10:22 AM (EST)

45. "RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sense to me..."

That would probably be a "no." The Donald seems to be someone who thinks everyone should be like him. Ergh. Can you imagine a world of Donalds? <shudders>
Not to disrespect the man; he's obviously determined and bright and a host of other things. But the most prevalent character traits that come across from what we are shone are ruthlessness and narcissism. It wouldn't hurt for him to show a bit of a softer side... if it's there.

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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-05-06, 01:00 PM (EST)

47. "RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sense to me..."

Disrespect away, as far as I'm concerned. I have absolutely no respect for his social views, based on some statements that he allegedly made in a book by a former employee. He has never repudiated these statements, even when taken to task about them on the Larry King Show after the debacle of last season's finale.
I am, however, impressed by how well-adjusted The Donald's children appear to be, in spite of his crazy marriage patterns. His daughter is a star with a good head on her shoulders. His boys seem to have succeeded in wading through a morass of high expectations and other social pressures to become decent fellows who know how to think on their feet. For this, The Donald should be proud.
In terms of business, The Donald comes off on the show as being very quirky in his decision-making processes, especially in the latter years of The Apprentice. That's unfortunate, because I have always thought that the show's concept is a good one. He is ruining the show by being inconsistent. Example: it was a good thing for Rebecca from last season to be loyal to Toral the Asshat. It was a bad thing for Bryce to be loyal to Tarek and Charmaine. Other inconsistencies abound, and I will not belabour them.
But what has emerged on the show is a pattern of playing for ratings, rather than providing the viewing public with an intelligent, entertaining program about making quick business decisions under tight time constraints.
The Donald had an opportunity to revolutionise reality television, and he blew it. What we now see is a panorama of drivel that is hatched by The Donald and Mark Burnett, a Brit who apparently thinks that Americans will easily buy into stereotyping and type casting, rather than understanding clearly when they are being manipulated by biased editing.
I agree that The Donald's bright. I also think that he got far in business because he had a head-start from his father. I wonder if he could have built an empire single-handedly without that head-start.
--Singer

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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-06-06, 09:26 PM (EST)

78. "Agree totally"

I just want to add three things:
1) I'm not Jewish, and I'm also an atheist, so I don't have a rooting interest in religious arguments one way or the other.
2) The controversies over Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur were completely manufactured controversies, just as Singer stated elsewhere in this thread. Let's be honest -- is there anything that would have stopped Burnett from scheduling around those days? Absolutely not. This discussion is exactly the one that Burnett wanted to trigger by scheduling tasks on those days, knowing that the Orthodox Jews would be bound by religious law to not participate. This has to be the sole reason that he began filming of this season earlier than normal this year, despite knowing that the show would air later than normal due to the Olympics being on NBC.
3) I completely agree with Singer's other arguments, even with regard to the comments about The Donald's kids. Singer and I have had our differences from time to time, but there's only one thing in here that I disagree with: Mark Burnett isn't a Brit, he's an Aussie (though he served in the British commandos). Other than that, we're in total agreement.

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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-07-06, 07:05 AM (EST)

84. "Thanks for your comments..."

Ayak, but MB was born in London and he's a naturalised citizen of the States now.
"Mark Burnett (born 17 July 1960), a British-born, naturalized citizen of the United States, is an extremely successful and dynamic TV producer, best known for the reality television series Survivor and the Eco-Challenge adventure race, as well as for The Apprentice, The Restaurant, The Casino, Rock Star: INXS and The Contender.
He has won two Emmy Awards, and is living with Northern Ireland-born actress, Roma Downey, which is ironic, as Burnett served a tour of duty in Northern Ireland at a time when British soldiers were most hated and vulnerable to attack..." Source: Wikipedia
I long for betters days on our show. *sigh*
--Singer

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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-18-06, 05:07 PM (EST)

131. "You're right"

I've even met Mark Burnett (once), and I'd assumed he was from Oz since the days of Eco-Challenge. I knew he was born in London, but (in my view of it) I thought his family emigrated to Australia during his youth. In that view, he joined the Parachute Regiment because he was still a UK citizen.
But you're right -- according to his autobiography, he was not only born in London, he grew up there. I'm very embarrassed, because I've repeated the story about Burnett being from Oz dozens of times.
Thanks for correcting my blunder.

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LIVEURBESTLIFE 302 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
04-04-06, 03:13 PM (EST)

37. "RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sense to me..."

As far as editing to make religion an issuse and to gain ratings. I don't believe MB did that. This is only an issuse because Lee was brought in the boardroom by Bryce. MB didn't ask Bryce to bring Lee in the boardroom.
I also disagree that Lenny and Lee are the weakest. Charmaine and Tarek are pretty weak too. Since Bryce didn't want to point fingers then the right man was fired.
Lee was not apart of the task and for good reason.
Look at this way: If you call in sick and your co-workers burn the company down that day. Should you be held responsible because if you had been there you could have saved the day.
In the real world there will be times when our personal lives take precendence over our work lives.
Randall's grandmother passing and Heidi's mom was diagnosed with cancer. Sometimes life happens.

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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-05-06, 10:04 AM (EST)

43. "RE: GWMAC, your argument makes sense to me..."

"Randall's grandmother passing and Heidi's mom was diagnosed with cancer. Sometimes life happens."
...and in an unpredictable manner, as all of your examples correctly highlight.
The high Jewish holidays, on the other hand, ARE predictable. Mark Burnett and his minions had no business making them an issue in this task, unless their purpose was to exploit religion to get ratings.
I believe that this was their purpose. Shame on them for that.
--Singer

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Keyser 28 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-04-06, 03:10 PM (EST)

35. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

As a Jewish physician who keeps the Jewish holidays, I can tell you that Lee was not using this day as an excuse to slack off from a task. I can also tell you that I have many times had to deal with Lenny types who get upset at me because I take Judaism seriously while they don't.
Having said that, I understand the consternation of the other contestants. It isn't fair that Lee is in fact getting a free pass. I have to think that Lee cleared this with the producers before he signed up for the show. Having said that, if it were me, I would make the following offer to the team if I were Lee:
I will be project manager for the next task. If we win, I will effusely praise all of those who performed well to Donald and his henchmen and not accept any praise for myself. If we lose, there will be no boardroom showdown. I will insist on being the one fired without exception. No matter what Donald says or does, I will not return to the suite but will take the elevator to the cab and leave.
I think that would be fair since now just as Lee got a free pass on a task because of a Jewish holiday, the rest of his team members will now get a free pass on a task.

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bessie 13 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
04-04-06, 03:44 PM (EST)

39. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I think that's a perfect solution! I think it also would have made sense for everyone to take the day off and continue after the observance. I too am bothered that Lee has participated in two fewer tasks and is on equal footing with the other players.
Bryce showed a lot of character in not turning on Charmaine or Tarek. If not for them, the team would have had nothing to present. Lenny was the weakest link and DT has his number. I wonder how Lee would have contributed to this task??

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Systic Axil 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-09-06, 03:48 AM (EST)

92. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Was motivated enough to de-lurk here. I agree that it would have made sense to have everyone take the day off.
To separate the issue into components, taking a holiday because one is forbidden to work is one thing. Getting immunity and advancing to the next level of elimination is another. And leaving your teammates shorthanded is also separate.
IMO, another alternative might have been to have Lee select a designated-hitter for just that week, just like how George got someone to take his place. In such a scenario, perhaps Lee could "draw" from one of the already eliminated contestants. Therefore Lee would not have to work, but still would be judged on the wisdom of his choice of substitute.
Yet another alternative would maybe have been to grant Lee's immunity to one member of the opposite team, just to make things equal between Synergy and Gold Rush. The members of the opposite team could draw straws to see which one would get a free pass like Lee.
Trump's comments about life being "unfair" seem to contrast with the notion that Trump could of made the whole situation more "fair" if he really wanted to.

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qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-10-06, 02:41 PM (EST)

104. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Interesting post systic, glad you are no-longer lurking. Welcome to the boards!

Yes It's Vintage Tribephyl!

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:45 PM (EST)

71. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

but don't you think that the team would slack off because they'll know they wouldn't be fired?
And Lee has to REALLY believe in himself and be sure that he would win to actually do that. I think he should have an equal opportunity in this, and despite that I won't believe he'll last for long, with his abilities that we've seen so far (not-so-great).

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NewFan 139 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-04-06, 05:54 PM (EST)

41. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I can see pulling Lennie in because he "did the least." And if that is the reason you brought him in, you HAVE to bring in Lee also because, to be totally honest, he did even less.
Now I'm not saying that Lee should have been fired--I don't think he should have. But to be fair, you have to bring him in too if you bring in Lennie.
Hey, Lennie's Jewish too. If Lennie had been fired, and had the opportunity to take the day off to go to synagogue, that would have been his choice, but it wouldn't have been fair.
With the 2 people that Bryce brought in with him, there was only one way Trump could have gone.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-05-06, 11:11 AM (EST)

46. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Keyser had the perfect solution to this whole Lee debacle. Congrats on that.
Understanding the importance of Yom Kippur to an orthodox Jew is NOT an issue; so I don't know why people are talking like it is. I don't believe anyone has said that Lee SHOULDN'T have taken the task off. Religion is more important than The Apprentice, obviously. BUT, what many of us are saying is that Lee should pay the price for not being there for his team. Saying people who actually worked during the task deserve to be fired more than someone who didn't do any work is ludicrous. It clearly is NOT fair that Lee has had a free pass at two boardrooms while everyone else on his team were vulnerable. Trump said life is not fair. TRUE, but an interviewing process SHOULD be.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is impossible to know whether Gold Rush could have won the task if Lee was there. Since Lee wasn't there, we will never know. If you are so sure that Lee being there would have made no difference, then what does that say about Lee?
And anyone insinuating that if Lee were a Christian missing Christian holidays this wouldn't be an issue is completely wrong. We would be MUCH harder on a Christian since most Christians work during the holidays if their job requires it.
And think of this once, what if Lee missed 2 outta 4 tasks from the final 8 to the final 5? Would you think that was fair? Then how is this more fair?

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LIVEURBESTLIFE 302 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
04-05-06, 03:07 PM (EST)

48. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

People who work on any religious holiday are doing it because they choose too. It is against the law for any employer to require that someone work on a religious holiday or fire someone for choosing not to.
Lee can not and should not be seen as someone who got a free pass because of his religious faith.
Bryce knew Lee would not be fired and that is why he brought him back to the boardroom. He picked Lee to bring back because Lee was safe from being fired.
Bryce was not trying to call Lee out for missing the task. Lee didn't deserve to be fired.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-06-06, 02:53 AM (EST)

50. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I disagree. Lee deserved to be fired. It isn't fair to everyone else that he got to take two tasks off. The LAW is meaningless because of not only the agreement he signed when opting to come on the show, but also because it was his CHOICE to come on the show, despite the dates. We aren't talking about his livelihood here. We are talking about an interview process he voluntarily accepted to participate in, again, despite the dates the interview would encompass.
In his exit interview, Bryce reiterated that he brought Lenny and Lee in because they participated the least in the task. He was hoping Trump would see things his way, but obviously that didn't happen.
"Lee can not and should not be seen as someone who got a free pass because of his religious faith."
I don't see how anyone can say that. The non-Zionists have not had the luxury of being immune from 2 boardrooms. Lee has... because of his religion. It seems simple to me.
Here are some indisputable facts:
There have been 2 Jewish holidays observed during the show.
Lee did not participate in the coinciding tasks for either. Dan did not participate in one.
During both those above tasks, Gold Rush LOST the task.
After both tasks, Lenny was brought back into the boardroom and nearly fired though he is Jewish and did participate in the tasks.
After both tasks, the PM, who did not have a full team, was fired.
During both tasks, Tarek stepped up to play a prominent role in the task, in lieu of someone else doing likewise, and thus received much of the blame for the loss.
So, two PMs have been fired, and both Lenny and Tarek are on "thin ice" with Trump, largely due to the two tasks when either Dan or Lee or both were not there. Is it coincidence that Gold Rush lost both tasks when someone was not there? I don't think so. If either PM who was fired had been Jewish, they would still be on the show. If Lenny had observed the holidays, he would not be on "thin ice." If either Lee or Dan had been around to take some responsibility from Tarek, HE wouldn't be on "thin ice."
So, I think it is obvious that the holidays, and who has observed them and who has not, has had a HUGE impact on Gold Rush and the game itself, and everyone's standing within the game.

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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-06-06, 08:38 AM (EST)

51. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-06-06 AT 09:13 AM (EST)
The problem is Mark Burnett and Donald Trump setting up an untenable choice situation for Lee after filming began.
Lee and his choice is not the problem here. The way that MB and The Donald planned the timing of the tasks is.
It is completely uncanny that they would tape during the high Jewish holidays this year. Why didn't we hear about similar timing "problems" in other seasons?
I agree completely that Lee's absence had an effect on the team. That is precisely why Burnett should have made sure that the playing field was level for all of the players throughout the competition. That has not happened this season, and we have numerous examples of how it did not happen for other reasons in other seasons, as well.
Unpredictable family events like deaths and terminal illnesses are a completely different set of circumstances, and it makes sense that the teams and producers made exceptions for players under those conditions.
That being said, it makes no sense that Burnett would set up a conflict among team members and stack the deck against a losing team when he could have waited one day and filmed the task then.
This entire controversy could have been avoided, and it would have been, if the producers were committed to giving us a fair and equal competition, rather than creating avoidable conflicts to get ratings. And it is particularly yucky that the producers would create a conflict related to a player's religious convictions. And all The Donald has to say about it is "Life sucks." Give me a break.
The entire scenario was a complete set-up. It was culturally insensitive, and it should never have happened. And that insensitivity was highlighted by Boyfriend Bill denigrating Lenny because of his language challenges and inability to write a jingle.
It appears that they were determined to disrespect a different group of people this season. I am just as put off by this as I have been by other examples of disrespecting ethnic/cultural groups in past seasons.
--Singer
Edited for clarity and spelling.

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janda3 87 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-06-06, 09:26 AM (EST)

52. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I just realized something. This is taking place in New York City. The city kind of shuts down somewhat during the Jewish High Holidays, due to the large population of Jewish People in New York. The public schools are closed as well as most offices. The majority of these people viing for the apprentice position are not from the New york area & aren't familiar with this. Even Bill, who's position is really in Chicago. DT is a born & bred NY-er. He's familiar with this. Heck, his father built a housing complex in the heart of a large jewish community in Brooklyn (the original "Trump Towers" in Brighton Beach).
By all rights & regulations, there shouldn't have been any filming or work done during these days. There are other workers behind the camera that also had to take off. What would it have hurt if they did that for the 2 days of Rosh HaShona & the 26 hours of Yom Kippur?

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qwertypie 9721 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-07-06, 01:47 AM (EST)

81. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

So well said!

Yes It's Vintage Tribephyl!

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JoshInSGV 737 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-07-06, 07:06 PM (EST)

88. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Singer,
I have to disagree with you in regards to Lenny. In my opinion, Lenny used cultural differences as a crutch to avoid contributing to a task that was clearly out of his comfort level. Everyone else in his team was also out of their element on this task, yet they tried and put some effort into it. Lenny became dead weight on this entire task. Bill was right to call him out on that. Did it come across as culturally insensitive? Yes! But, I think Bill raised a legitimate point and in my opinion Lenny should have been fired.

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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-10-06, 11:33 AM (EST)

101. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-10-06 AT 11:48 AM (EST)
>Singer,
>I have to disagree with you
>in regards to Lenny. In
>my opinion, Lenny used cultural
>differences as a crutch to
>avoid contributing to a task
>that was clearly out of
>his comfort level. Everyone else
>in his team was also
>out of their element on
>this task, yet they tried
>and put some effort into
>it. Lenny became dead weight
>on this entire task. Bill
>was right to call him
>out on that. Did it
>come across as culturally insensitive?
>Yes! But, I think Bill
>raised a legitimate point and
>in my opinion Lenny should
>have been fired.
Hey, Josh, and long time no hear from!
I see what you mean, but some people believe that the jingle writing process did put Lenny at an unfair advantage, regardless of whether he was using the language barrier as a crutch.
I am not convinced that he did not try to help the team. (The editors provided footage of some of his feckless efforts.) I am convinced that Lenny's efforts were not useful to the team. (They rejected his idea for a jingle using chicken sounds.)
Maybe he was discouraged by his shortcomings in this task. Who knows? But I get the impression that he really tried to help, and that by his own estimation, his efforts were "crap."
I did not like Bill's smarmy comment, and I agree completely with you that the point could have been made in a less unsensitive way. Where does Boyfriend Bill get off making judgements about a person's language abilities?
I am coming to a different view on this entire task, at least as of this morning. Since the playing field was not completely level for both teams, I am prone to agree with another poster who stated that no one should have been fired on this task.
I guess you know by now that I am always thinking about systems of rules and how they apply in game theoretic situations. That is why I have this position. Bill's smarmy attitude (my subjective belief) doesn't really factor into this.
--Singer

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Big Al 293 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-06-06, 09:52 AM (EST)

53. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

"The non-Zionists have not had the luxury of being immune from 2 boardrooms."
Huh?

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mickeyvon 35 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 11:19 AM (EST)

54. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

There is a HUGE part of this discussion that everyone is overlooking!
Did anyone ever consider that Lee taking time off for the Jewish holidays is a DISADVANTAGE for him. This is a JOB INTERVIEW, and Lee missed out on two opportunities to prove himself. Everyone is just focusing on the fact that he got two free passes and therefore didn't get fired those weeks, but the reality is, they are competing for a job, and the best candidates should be proving their attributes on a weekly basis. Lee missed two opportunities to do this, and in this competitive job contest, he may suffer as result.
Don't think of it as free chances of not making mistakes, but instead blown opportunities to show his strengths.

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tarmaq 127 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-06-06, 11:38 AM (EST)

55. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

If they would have done this even one day before, Lee could have been there for the "working" portion of the task. You cannot blame Lee. They work on a task for two days and the primary one of those days "HAS" to be on Yom Kippur? Please. It was all to set up this sort of situation and conflict. And that is heinous.

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LIVEURBESTLIFE 302 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
04-06-06, 05:59 PM (EST)

59. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

The only thing your argument says to me is that Gold Rush doesn't know how to delegate.
The reason the task was lost was because the lyrics missed key wording necessary to promote the product and the music missed the mark. Neither of these elements would have changed had Lee been there.
Gold Rush couldn't do something as basic as show up to a meeting on time. So the executives were already a little po'ed with them anyway. Lee being there would not have changed this fact either.
Lee missing the task was not the reason they lost. So there was no reason he should have been brought into the boardroom.
Donald didn't think that Lenny's inability to contribute was a reason to be fired therefore Lee's inability to contribute couldn't be used as a reason to be fired.
The PM okayed the decisions so the PM got fired.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:46 PM (EST)

72. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-06-06 AT 08:17 PM (EST)
But Lenny would have lied had he taken the day off, since he obviously isn't as religious as Lee.
Firing Lee for not being there on Yom Kippur is the same as fire anyone for any belief.

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Keyser 28 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 02:39 PM (EST)

56. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

"The non-Zionists have not had the luxury of being immune from 2 boardrooms."
Interesting choice of words there. I hope you're not one of those who likes to say "Im not anti-semitic, Im just anti-Zionist" But Ill assume it was just a slip.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:47 PM (EST)

73. ":-0"

he actually said that?

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Keyser 28 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 03:01 PM (EST)

57. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I will give you scenarios of what I think happened (since I have been through this many times before).
Scenario 1 - Pro-Lee:
Lee looks at filming schedule, and asks producer A. "The Jewish high holidays are during filming. I will not work those days. Will this be a problem?"
Producer A: "Oh, that won't be a problem, dont worry"
Lee thinks that this means that the wont do tasks on those days or some equitable solution will be made.
Producr A thinks this means some combination of "It wont be a big deal", "Lee will work something out when the time comes", "Lee will just need an hour off to go to synagogue and will still be able to participate in the tasks", "Well, the other contestants will just have to deal with it" or "Lee is just asking, but if its comes down to a choice of being off the show, he'll cave."
Producer A then sits on the information as if nothing happened or forgets about it. Then the day comes and Lee says "OK, I won't be here today like I said." Producer B says "What are you talking about?" Lee says "I told Producer A a month ago about this." Producer B "First I heard of it, let me huddle with the other producers." (After huddle), um, OK, just go, and we wont count it against you. Lee tells the other contestants, and, well, you see what happened.
Scenario 2 - Anti-Lee
Lee sees the production schedule and says to himself "Uh-oh, they're filming during the high holidays. I dont want to blow this. If I start making a fuss, they'll can me. Ill just keep it to myself and if I manage to survive until then, I'll figure out what to do at that point." Or he just waits until it is too late to replace him. And you see what happened when he does tell the other contestants.
I have to think the earlier scenario is true simply because it involved 2 candidates, and therefore likely one of them spoke up beforehand.

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skbnwinters 11 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
04-06-06, 05:10 PM (EST)

58. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I was one of the first to say that he should have brought back Charmaine but that would have been A HARD THING to do since she worked so hard. Tough call.
Maybe it's true....Lee should have been called back for TWICE not being there for his team. So Lenny was a "sabra"?! That's my name. Now I love Lenny! I didn't know he was in the Israeli army. Cool.
(He IS sort of funny and goofy, my favorite type of guy. I just don't know if I could trust him further than I could throw him.)

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LIVEURBESTLIFE 302 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
04-06-06, 06:16 PM (EST)

60. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

To not bring someone back into the boardroom because they worked haard is a nice thought. But most of the contestants work hard. This isn't about who works the hardest it is about who should get the job.
Yes hard working is a good quality but you also have to win challenges and when your choices cause a loss for your team you should expect to be sent to the boardroom.
The executives stated that the lyrics didn't say certain things that they wanted to hear. Gold Rush showed up late for a meeting. Both of these things were Charmaines mistakes. The flip side of the coin is that the PM had final approval of everything.
The right man was fired.

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adricharlie 1242 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest"
04-07-06, 05:20 AM (EST)

83. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I disagree on two points:
1. Charmaine was not the only one doing the lyrics and Bryce thought the lyrics were good. That was his call.
2. They showed Charmaine telling Bryce when the meeting was and that they needed to leave in 5 or 10 minutes. Bryce was totally at fault for being late not Charmaine. He put her in charge of making the appointment but he is supposed to get them there on time.

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JoshInSGV 737 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-07-06, 07:16 PM (EST)

89. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Yup! I agree completelly with this statement. Leslie and Charmaine worked on the lyrics. Why should Charmaine be brought back into the boardroom, but not Leslie? In fact, I don't think either one of them should be held responsible for the loss. Because at least they tried and no one else in the team had any better ideas.
And thank you for pointing out the fact that Charmaine did notify the team about the time of the appointment. I thought I had seen something to that effect, but I wasn't sure. I liked Bryce's leadership style but arriving late to the appointment falls on the PM. This is the reason why Brian from last season got fired.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 07:50 PM (EST)

74. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

he wasn't in the israeli army.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-06-06, 06:46 PM (EST)

61. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-06-06 AT 08:18 PM (EST)
Wow.
First, Lenny did NOT serve in the Israeli army, and he was completely off with that comment he made back then about the Israeli army. In the Israeli army they do fight during Holidays, but only because people's lives depend on it. If we didn't have soldiers watching the boarder on Holidays, terrorist might sneak in and that can't be good.
Judaism DEMANDS that you act to save lives at any time, even on Yom Kippur. This isn't a life saving act, this is a TV show.
George wasn't there for the Jewish Holidays either, should he have been fired?
In case you don't know, in Yom Kippur Jews aren't only forbidden to work, they also can't drive, can't use electricity and such, but more importantly, they don't eat or drink on that day.
In Israel we all get the holidays off, and on Yom kippur you don't see a single car on the street. Luckily, we don't have to face problams like your comments because of that.
Firing Lee on this task would be very wrong, it's like firing anyone for believing in God, since this is what Lee believes that god demands him to do on that day. And he believes in that whether you agree or not.
I don't know if Lee is what Donald Trump looks for, I actually happen to not-think he's a big catch. But Trump will never find out if he fires him because of his religious beliefs.
I find your comments very ignorant and irrelevant.

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-06-06, 09:55 PM (EST)

79. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-06-06 AT 10:03 PM (EST)
Hi dafnaf and welcome! ...or should I say, Shalom!
I appreciate you adding your comments throughout the thread and your perspective.
As I've said before on these boards, I was raised in a community with a large population of Orthodox Jews. I am also married to a Jewish man (not a very religious one, but Jewish nonetheless), so I can appreciate the tradition and culture of the religion.
I never imagined that people would not understand just how much this holiday means. I suppose it is because they have no experience with it whatsoever. The very definition of ignorance.
I think people also fail to realize that Lenny and Lee (and Dan) are from different sects. They don't all practice their religion the same way because of how and where they were raised. We are seeing a lot of vast generalizations from folks not realizing Judaism is not just one sect.
Can we compare this holiday to Christmas? No, not directly, but we can make the comparison of how many different sects of Christianity celebrate the holiday differently. Do some Christians work on Christmas? Sure they do. Does that mean all Christians should work on Christmas? Of course not! That would be ridiculous.
Yeah, maybe the Jehovah Witnesses are willing to work that day, but do you think the Roman Catholics would. I don't think so. Not the very devout ones anyway. ...and they would never expect to be fired over it.
Anyway, I wanted to say, I'm glad you came along with your perspective and enjoyed reading your comments.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-07-06, 00:52 AM (EST)

80. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Not more bemoaning over people not realizing how important Yom Kippur is... AGAIN, I never said Lee SHOULDNT have taken it off. Of course he should take it off, and do whatever his faith requires him to do.
What I am saying is there should be a consequence for him not being around to help his team, which then LOST both tasks.
You can theorize whatever you want about how Lee being there wouldn't have won the task. That doesn't change the fact that we will never KNOW for sure one way or the other. Maybe Lee catches the missing lyrics? Maybe Bryce puts him in charge of the music instead of Tarek? Who knows?
Any employer would tell you the most important thing about an employee is them SHOWING up to do their job. You would take an employee who makes the occasional mistake over an employee who doesn't show up any day of the week.
Did Bryce deserve to be fired? Sure, he okayed Charmaine's and Tarek's decisions and deserves most the blame for the team being late to the meeting with the execs.
But I just have a hard time with firing people who were actually there and worked when there is someone who twice now hasn't even been around. ONCE, I had no problem with, but TWICE? If Randall had missed two tasks due to his grandma's passing, I would've thought that was unfair as well.
I do agree that there is an argument for Lee being at a disadvantage as well for missing those tasks. It depends ultimately on how strong of a candidate he is. We will see.
But stop with the "you don't realize how important Yom Kippur is." If Lee is devout, then he SHOULD observe the holiday. I'm not blaming him, just pointing out there should be consequences for his action.

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indy42 135 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-07-06, 01:56 AM (EST)

82. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

One name to remember:
Sandy Koufax!!

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Sunder 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-07-06, 10:57 AM (EST)

85. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-07-06 AT 10:58 AM (EST)
I find it disturbing at the number of posts I've seen that for one reason or another claim that these Jewish holidays is any more important than Christmas.
1. Does the presumed "importance" of a religious holiday really have weight with whether or not you can take the day off?
2. How is this "importance" measured? I keep on hearing "they don't use electricty, etc". Does that mean that the more personal sacrifices one makes, the more important the holiday gets?
I'm sure many Jewish people would be offended if Christians claimed some of their holidays are more important to them than what the Jewish ones are to them.
But regardless, correct me if I'm wrong, but does the law actually specify all religious holidays, or just certain ones? I think the Ash Wednesday/Easter comparison is totally valid then. Why not throw in Ukrainian Easter too?
There is no easy answer for Lee and the situation. While you can't actually definitely say that he was the the reason why they lost the task, you can however definitely say that he contributed nothing to help them win.

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Big Al 293 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-07-06, 12:01 PM (EST)

86. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

"Important" was not an accurate or precise word to use here. However the religious restrictions are different and much more strict for Yom Kippur than Christmas, and that is the real point. IF you want to compare it, tThink of the Christian who refused to run on Sunday in the Olympics in Chariots of Fire.

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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-07-06, 12:24 PM (EST)

87. "Interesting point, Al..."

What I like about this discussion is that it allows participants to explore the beauty and complexities of different cultural practices.
I hope that people will abstain from making morally-loaded comments about which practices are more justifiable than others.
I also hope that people will understand that in the American workplace, there are dispensations if people of different faiths do not come to work for cultural reasons.
I have never heard of a job interview situation where a person was disqualified for making a similar decision. From what I've seen, interviewers simply schedule around the religious observation.
I wish that this had happened in this game situation. I say this, because once you factor emotions out of all responses, it is impossible to know if the uneven number of players on the team caused the team loss. (In rational choice decision-making, two heads are usually better than one.)
An argument can be made for the idea that the entire game is forever skewed because of what happened here. Going forward, it will be hard to know if any outcome would be fair this season, because some teams benefitted repeatedly from numbers-based advantages during the brainstorming and decision-making process during this challenge and others.
Any thoughts on this?
--Singer

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-08-06, 01:49 PM (EST)

91. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-08-06 AT 04:57 PM (EST)

No one (not me, at least) claimed that Yom Kippur is more important than Christmas. I personally don't observe any of these holidays. However, I did point out that Yom Kippur is very Different from Christmas. Chrismas is a very happy holiday, you celebrate on that day. On Yom Kippur you're not allowed to be happy, you're supposed to fast and pray to god all day long.
People compared Chrismas to Yom kippur, saying that if there is a deal to make on Christmas, people do it. So they're saying that Lee didn't have to go. What they don't realize, is that on Yom kippur you're not allowed to make a phone, you're not allowed to make any business, you're not allowed to drive a car and all you do is go to the temple and pray to god.
Of course Chrismas is very important, there's no doubt about that, but comparing it to Yom kippur (and I'm talking about the holidays' purpose and rules) is completely irrelevant.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-08-06, 01:40 PM (EST)

90. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Some posts here did show me that people don't understand the significance of Yom Kippur to Jewish people. Maybe your posts didn't, but others said things like 'if he was given money, I'm sure he would've stayed' and 'Lenny could go too but he didn't'.
I think that it will eventually go down to the best man winning, and if along the way people are getting fired, it means that they weren't good enough. Trump obviously didn't want Bryce to be the apprentice because of wrong judgments he made. He wasn't good enough for Trump whether you (and I, for that matter) like it or not.
I also think that Lee isn't a very good contestant, I'm almost sure he wouldn't make it to the final two. But we'll have to find out the right way, because it would be wrong to fire him over something that he had no other choice but to do.
And say he was good- say we thought that he did a really good job so far, and we believed he should win and be the next apprentice. Wouldn't it make you really angry if he got fired because he had to miss a certain task (or two)?
About Randall, I thought he was really good throughout, and there's no doubt he shouldn't have been fired for the task he missed, even if there had been two.
I'm sure it pisses off the other contesters, but like Trump says (and I don't say that very often), this is life. For one person a family member dies, and for the other a task is schedualed on yom kippur.
It doesn't really matter if Lee goes first or last, as long as he goes. And I'm pretty sure he will, but for a better reason than this.

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-09-06, 07:44 AM (EST)

93. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Tagging on:

Lee took a chance by taking the day off.

I just went through this: I am a professional interviewer in the law area.
I scheduled appointments only to have one call saying it was a religious holiday, she is Jewish. I said ok, I can reschedule you for Sat. ONLY to be told that is her Sabbath (Sabbath is probally the wrong word but it is their religious day as Sun is for Chrisians) and can't interview then either.
I didn't bother to try any further to reschedule her.
By the ad she knew that there was a deadline for inerviews. Happens both days were not good for her.
I feel Lee knew this (and as did the Lady to applied and felt she should have special treatment)would come up and knew ahead of time that he would be fine and would not be fired (as did the Lady, she felt Ishould reschedule MY time to accomafate her schedule-REAL world does not work this way whereas UNreality TV does).
The shows interview process is NOT based on just one or even two (as was in my case) day/s but weeks and it will be up to Lee to prove himself worthy of being in the final two.

As for the commnts about which religious holiday is more important....Well, for the Catholics I would think Good Friday is. Where betweent the hours of 12-3 pm they are to be quiet and observe the time Jesus died on the cross. Should they get the day off as a religious holiday or atleast those hours?

My question is:
Just how many different religious holidays must a business put up with?
Each different religion has holidays that are important to the repsective religion?
Where/when do we say enough is enough?

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-09-06, 01:15 PM (EST)

94. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-09-06 AT 01:20 PM (EST)
On Shabbat religious orthodox Jewish people are not allowed to work, use electricity etc.
People in Israel who work in governmental establishments are not allowed to work on Shabbat. Most people don't work on Shabbat (or any Jewish holiday) and only a few workplaces can force someone to work on Shabbat (and obviously religious people don't work there).
So this is not a problem where I live.
I really don't know how religious people get along in their workplaces anywhere out of Israel. I can see how problematic it is for both the employers and the Jewish employees.
My personal opinion is that it is wrong to reject someone for not being able to work on specific days, because he might have been the most suitable man for the job, so it could have been a loss for the both of you. And this an extremely problematic area, where the person has no other choice but to keep the shabbat and observe the holidays, and it certainly isn't fair that he isn't given a chance just because he sticks to his beliefs.
Like I said in a different post, a jewish friend of mine who lives in the US- who is NOT religious- never takes any Jewish holidays off. His employers allow him to take those days off, but he doesn't want the other employees to bear grudges against him. Imagine a situation when you live in country that isn't supposed to have any ethnical basis (like the US), but the only holidays you and the rest of the country take off are the Jewish Holidays. Say you can't go home to be with your family for christmas. Instead you take a day off like everybody else at, say, Rosh Hashana. if in addition to that you would want to be home for christmas, your employers and co-workers Would not let you go. Would it be fair in your opinion?
One of the differences between the Jewish Holidays and the christian ones is that on the Jewish Holidays you believe you're not allowed to work - by god.
About Lee, I really don't know what he thought, I'm not sure that he just knew that everything will be fine and he wouldn't get fired because of yom kippur, and I really believe he shouldn't worry about that. Luckily I never had to worry about such a problem.
I hope you get my point.

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-10-06, 07:25 AM (EST)

97. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

>LAST EDITED ON 04-09-06
>AT 01:20 PM (EST)
>
>
>
>On Shabbat religious orthodox Jewish people
>are not allowed to work,
>use electricity etc.
>People in Israel who work in
>governmental establishments are not allowed
>to work on Shabbat. Most
>people don't work on Shabbat
>(or any Jewish holiday) and
>only a few workplaces can
>force someone to work on
>Shabbat (and obviously religious people
>don't work there).
>So this is not a problem
>where I live.
>
>I really don't know how religious
>people get along in their
>workplaces anywhere out of Israel.
>I can see how problematic
>it is for both the
>employers and the Jewish employees.
>
>My personal opinion is that it
>is wrong to reject someone
>for not being able to
>work on specific days, because
>he might have been the
>most suitable man for the
>job, so it could have
>been a loss for the
>both of you. And this
>an extremely problematic area, where
>the person has no other
>choice but to keep the
>shabbat and observe the holidays,
>and it certainly isn't fair
>that he isn't given a
>chance just because he sticks
>to his beliefs.
>
>Like I said in a different
>post, a jewish friend of
>mine who lives in the
>US- who is NOT religious-
>never takes any Jewish holidays
>off. His employers allow him
>to take those days off,
>but he doesn't want the
>other employees to bear grudges
>against him. Imagine a situation
>when you live in country
>that isn't supposed to have
>any ethnical basis (like the
>US), but the only holidays
>you and the rest of
>the country take off are
>the Jewish Holidays. Say you
>can't go home to be
>with your family for christmas.
>Instead you take a day
>off like everybody else at,
>say, Rosh Hashana. if in
>addition to that you would
>want to be home for
>christmas, your employers and co-workers
>Would not let you go.
>Would it be fair in
>your opinion?
>
>One of the differences between the
>Jewish Holidays and the christian
>ones is that on the
>Jewish Holidays you believe you're
>not allowed to work -
>by god.
>
>About Lee, I really don't know
>what he thought, I'm not
>sure that he just knew
>that everything will be fine
>and he wouldn't get fired
>because of yom kippur, and
>I really believe he shouldn't
>worry about that. Luckily I
>never had to worry about
>such a problem.
>
>I hope you get my point.
>
As for my loss that I might ahve missed out on an employee...oh well....I will NOT ever rechedule MY time because she couldn't make either of the TWO scheduled interviews (One being on a Fri and the other being the next day on a Sat)cause of religious days. Because of one person I should have exended MY scheduled time to accomadate this Lady? NO and I never would. She knew by the ad what the days were for interviews so why call and complain she can't attend either of the interviews due to religious days?
That is what I am tired of. People using any excuse to do things on their schedule not the interviewers etc.

I respect people who are into their religion BUT I also wish they would have respect for others. Seems they feel they can do what they wish all in the name of a religion and a god telling them to do so.

As I stated though, Lee has plenty of time to prove he deserves to be in the final two and be picked as the newest apprentice.

My question is this though: Was BOTH days he took off told to him by God to do so? The days were far enough apart that no way could they be this same holiday?

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-10-06, 08:04 AM (EST)

98. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-10-06 AT 08:13 AM (EST)

>As for my loss that I
>might ahve missed out on
>an employee...oh well....I will NOT
>ever rechedule MY time because
>she couldn't make either of
>the TWO scheduled interviews (One
>being on a Fri and
>the other being the next
>day on a Sat)cause of
>religious days. Because of
>one person I should have
>exended MY scheduled time to
>accomadate this Lady? NO
>and I never would.
>She knew by the ad
>what the days were for
>interviews so why call and
>complain she can't attend either
>of the interviews due to
>religious days?
If she knew what the dates were and she still applied, I guess she shouldn't have had. Again, I'm glad I don't have to face this kind of problam, because where I live no one will ever schedual an appointment on Yom Kippur.
>That is what I am tired
>of. People using any
>excuse to do things on
>their schedule not the interviewers
>etc.
These aren't excuses, this is the ABC of the Jewish religion. Religious people think it's a sin not to keep Shabbat or not to observe Yom Kippur.
>I respect people who are into
>their religion BUT I also
>wish they would have respect
>for others. Seems they
>feel they can do what
>they wish all in the
>name of a religion and
>a god telling them to
>do so.
you say they can do "what they wish", but it isn't really what they wish, they believe god wishes them to do so.
>As I stated though, Lee has
>plenty of time to prove
>he deserves to be in
>the final two and be
>picked as the newest apprentice.
I agree. Lee doesn't seem to fit. But this was not a good reason to throw him out. he should get fired when he does an error.
>My question is this though:
>Was BOTH days he took
>off told to him by
>God to do so?
> The days were
>far enough apart that no
>way could they be this
>same holiday?
Here's some information you might not know:
There is a period of time at the beginning of the Jewish year that we call "the holidays". In a one month period Jews have five different holidays, in four of which the Jews aren't allowed to use electricty or transportation and they're not allowed to work. Those holidays are: Rosh hashana, Gedalia fast, Yom Kippur, Succot and Simchat Torrah.
Rosh Hashana, Yom kippur and the ten days between them are called "the horrible days" or "ten days of Repentance", in which jews pray to god intensively. Those two holidays are the most important two holidays in the Jewish calander. These are the two Holidays the Lee was observing. The belief is that on Rosh Hashana the sky is open to prayers, and it closes in the end of Yom Kippur. That's pretty much it.

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-11-06, 06:27 AM (EST)

107. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Too long to quote but thanks for the info on the two seperate days.
And yes, I have seen people use religion to get out of things.

Yes, you are lucky that people know what holidays not to schedule things on BUT I don't have the time to figure what days are good for each religion...Jewish people aren't the only ones that have religious days off per god's words. And imho not one religious holiday is more important than the other. As for the two days of interview they were back to back-a Fri and Sat so by your explanation this lady could have made one of them.
Lee will now be able though to show what he is made of. IF he was smart he would become the next product manager (And no I ahve not yet watched last nights 2 hour show-have it taped).

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janda3 87 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-10-06, 08:47 AM (EST)

100. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Be glad that the lady didn't hit you with a EEOC suit in violation of her religious rights! She wasn't looking for you to accomodate her because she had a beauty appointment or a wedding. IT WAS DUE TO RELIGIOUS REASONS!! Again, unless it was stated that Saturdays would be needed to work, you really were obligated to accomodate her. My husband was scheduled to work for the Census Bureau & was scheduled to work during the holiday time of Passover, during the time which is like the Sabbath. He was also scheduled to meet at a non kosher restaurant. Both of those actions were violations against his religious beliefs (we are very orthodox & do not even walk into a non kosher establishment). The Census office threatened to release him. My husband filed a compliant with the EEOC (federal office that protects civil rights in the workplace) & they were ready to bring charges against the Census bureau for violating my husband's rights, unless the Bureau reassigned my husband to the same level position after the holidays & didn't obligate him to attend the meetings in the restaurant (he waited outside & was briefed afterwards). So, you see, the real world does work around those whose religious beliefs conflict with productivity, by working around them, not firing them. In all fairness & reality (excuse the meanted pun), Trump should not have filmed during the High Holidays, not only to accomodate Lee, but all the other crew members. And regarding everone's problems "Well, no one takes off for Christmas or Easter": My friend was a nurse in Beth Israel Hospital. On Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve, Palm Sunday & Easter Sunday (unless it conflicted with Passover), my friend worked their shifts, & they in turn worked her shifts for her holidays. No on thought it unfair. In the public schools, they are closed in New York during Rosh HaShona & Yom Kippur; for all the other holidays the teachers & other workers have the option of either taking the day off without penalization or without pay, or to take what is called a "Religious Observance Day," which means that they get half pay & the other half goes to pay for a substitute. This is for Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslaims, Buddaists, Hindu's & anyone else that have religous conflicts during working hours. So this is what happens in the "real world": you learn to play nicely in the sandbox & learn to respect everyone elses beliefs even when it's not your own.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-10-06, 12:46 PM (EST)

103. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I agree with all you said,
and Happy Passover!

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-11-06, 06:41 AM (EST)

108. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

First it was interviews I was conducting (The job does not require one to work Sat)...on a Fri and Sat and she couldn't make either one....she can try and sue but she would ahve to prove both days were religious ones and prove god told her to take them off.
Second, the ad ran for a full two weeks and she calls at the last minute stating she wishes to be interviewed but then proceedes to state what days she can be interviewed.....sorry this is MY shcedule not hers. Don't give a rats butt what her excuses are.
Per anothers explanation, a very detail one, the religious holidays that god tells the Jewish people to take off are not back to back, hence she could ahve made a Fri appt to be interviewed.
Reasoning for a Sat interview time was for those people who work during the week and wouldn't be able to get off.
Haven't watched last nights shows yet....got them taped and hopefully Lee took the intiative to be the PM. He does seem like a nice guy, what little I've seen of him...even when he is present he seems to fade into the backround til the *Judges* appear.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-18-06, 08:44 AM (EST)

123. "What?"

you're saying she has to prove that God told her to take the holidays off?
Well, I sure wouldn't want to work for you.

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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-18-06, 04:57 PM (EST)

130. "Comment"

You might not want to work for the previous poster -- but he/she was within his/her rights, because you do not have to accomodate an individual's religious beliefs during interview scheduling.
Whether you should do so is a different matter that does not relate to The Apprentice, and so further discussion of it should be limited to the Off-Topic Board. Thank you.

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tinkerer 90 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-10-06, 02:55 AM (EST)

96. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Lee took a chance by taking
the day off.
Not by New York City standards, he didn't. And Trump's business is based in New York City.
I am not Jewish. I was born and raised in New York City, and went to New York City public schools. The schools are open on the Jewish holidays, but so many teachers and so many students are taking off that no new material gets covered during these days. The kids that do show up basically have a free study day.
Trump runs a building and real estate empire in New York City, and that is an industry which has a high percentage of Jews. Trump well knows, and has known for years, that you can not seriously expect a person of the Jewish faith to work those days. And since a very high percentage of Trump's business acquaintances and friends are Jewish, you can be certain he wouldn't ask them to do so. In New York, it simply is Not Done. End of story.
When Lee took off the first time, Trump explained to his team that he would not hold it against him because "that's life". And indeed, in New York City, especially in an industry like real estate, that IS life. And anyone who works for Trump had better get the picture, fast.

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-11-06, 06:54 AM (EST)

109. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

>
>Lee took a chance by taking
>
>the day off.
>
>Not by New York City standards,
>he didn't. And Trump's
>business is based in New
>York City.
>
>I am not Jewish. I
>was born and raised in
>New York City, and went
>to New York City public
>schools. The schools are
>open on the Jewish holidays,
>but so many teachers and
>so many students are taking
>off that no new material
>gets covered during these days.
> The kids that do
>show up basically have a
>free study day.
>
>Trump runs a building and real
>estate empire in New York
>City, and that is an
>industry which has a high
>percentage of Jews. Trump well
>knows, and has known for
>years, that you can not
>seriously expect a person of
>the Jewish faith to work
>those days. And since
>a very high percentage of
>Trump's business acquaintances and friends
>are Jewish, you can be
>certain he wouldn't ask them
>to do so. In
>New York, it simply is
>Not Done. End of
>story.
>
>When Lee took off the first
>time, Trump explained to his
>team that he would not
>hold it against him because
>"that's life". And indeed,
>in New York City, especially
>in an industry like real
>estate, that IS life.
>And anyone who works for
>Trump had better get the
>picture, fast.
IF by NY standards he didn't take a chance by attending his religious services and Trump feels the way he does about the situation.........
Then why not wait three weeks to begin taping?

I am sure by NT standards Trump KNEW there were important Jewish religious days upcoming during taping.
I am sure there are crew members of the show who are also Jewish, would love to know if they got those days off also.

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janda3 87 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-10-06, 08:23 AM (EST)

99. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

In regards to your situation, yes, you should have accomdated her due to her religious restraints, unless the job entailed working on the Sabbath (btw, that is the correct english wording for it.). After all, all universities that have exams scheduled for religious holidays give "make up" exams. I used to belong to a MLM business that would constantly have seminars & meetings on Saturday. Wouldn't you know it, they scheduled the same meetings & seminars for those who's religious beliefs conflicted with Saturday; it wasn't just the Jews but also the Jehovah Witnesses & the Muslaims that have that problem. SAT, MCAT, LSAT, PSAT, & the like exams always have special days for those whose religious beliefs conflict with the scheduled day. So in regards to dealing with the real world, it is you & those like you who have to learn to deal in the real world.

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-11-06, 07:04 AM (EST)

110. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

>In regards to your situation, yes,
>you should have accomdated her
>due to her religious restraints,
>unless the job entailed working
>on the Sabbath (btw, that
>is the correct english wording
>for it.). After all,
>all universities that have exams
>scheduled for religious holidays give
>"make up" exams. I
>used to belong to a
>MLM business that would constantly
>have seminars & meetings on
>Saturday. Wouldn't you know
>it, they scheduled the same
>meetings & seminars for those
>who's religious beliefs conflicted with
>Saturday; it wasn't just the
>Jews but also the Jehovah
>Witnesses & the Muslaims that
>have that problem. SAT,
>MCAT, LSAT, PSAT, & the
>like exams always have special
>days for those whose religious
>beliefs conflict with the scheduled
>day. So in regards to
>dealing with the real world,
>it is you & those
>like you who have to
>learn to deal in the
>real world.
People like me? You have NO idea what I am like and don't appreciate your words. Personal attacks are NOT allowed in these fourms-might want to reread the rules of this site.
The lady had two different days to pick from..and she called last minute to say neither day was good for her cause of religious beliefs...Since she had NOT been scheduled for an interview yet I let her pass.
If she wishes to sue, that is fine, but the ad ran for two weeks and she calls last minute? Just the type of person i wish to hire.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-18-06, 08:47 AM (EST)

124. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

The fact that she was too late is another subject.

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Big Al 293 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-10-06, 12:09 PM (EST)

102. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Your question was:
"Just how many different religious holidays must a business put up with?
Each different religion has holidays that are important to the repsective religion?
Where/when do we say enough is enough?"
The answer to the first question is none except Christmas which is the only religious Holiday that I am aware of for which most businesses close. When Jewish people take off Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana, aat my compnay and others, it is charged against their vacation or personal days just the same as Christians get carged a day if they take off Good Friday. Peopl taking a religious day off are not getting a free ride in terms of additional time off.

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tinkerer 90 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-10-06, 07:43 PM (EST)

105. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Or, put another way, everybody gets to take their religious holidays off without fear of being fired. Whether it means one less personal day allowed, or whether it means you get paid for the day, (some companies do not pay for personal days off, some do), people are not put in the position where they have to choose between their conscience and their job.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-11-06, 04:51 AM (EST)

106. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-11-06 AT 05:14 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 04-11-06 AT 04:53 AM (EST)
Why don't you all compare oranges to oranges instead of to apples?? You can't compare something that happened to your husband, or anyone else, while ON THE JOB to someone interviewing or looking to interview. A business that has pressing needs that need to be resolved ASAP may not be able to afford to wait until someone's personal religious calendar has a free date. The whole idea is ridiculous. If you are already on the job and your employer requires you to do something against your religious beliefs, and then fires you or holds back benefits because you refuse, THAT may indeed be reason to sue. THAT is not the same as someone CHOOSING to apply for a job. And, if you think finding someone willing to sue makes your point, you will have plenty of points to make. It isn't something I would be proud of, but that is just me, I guess... sue everybody.
Actually,I think AshLanie poised a great question? When is enough, enough? Should we recognize ALL holidays, or none? When you consider the number of religions in this country, is the first option fiscally possible? I doubt it, but I KNOW the second option is NOT desirable.
And here is a news flash on the REAL WORLD, as so many of you like to comment on, the last two corporations I worked for, Fortune 500 companies both, did NOT recognize a single Christian holiday. They recognize National holidays, not Christian holidays, which means no recognition of Good Friday or Easter. Christmas is the biggest holiday in the country. It is a capitalist holiday and has less and less to do with religion every year. So, calling it a Christian holiday is kind of borderline at this point.
So, when talking about living in a country that only recognizes the holidays of one religion, realize what you are talking about, ONE holiday, basically. And also realize where you live. If I lived in Israel,I would expect to have Yom Kippur off. If I lived in India, I would expect to have whatever off... etc. etc.... We could recognize EVERY religious holiday and have 30 national holidays for all I care. Sounds GREAT!!! I don't own a business though... And I guess my employer not going out of business might be kind of important...

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-11-06, 07:19 AM (EST)

112. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

>LAST EDITED ON 04-11-06
>AT 05:14 AM (EST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON 04-11-06
>AT 04:53 AM (EST)
>
>Why don't you all compare oranges
>to oranges instead of to
>apples?? You can't compare something
>that happened to your husband,
>or anyone else, while ON
>THE JOB to someone interviewing
>or looking to interview. A
>business that has pressing needs
>that need to be resolved
>ASAP may not be able
>to afford to wait until
>someone's personal religious calendar has
>a free date. The whole
>idea is ridiculous. If you
>are already on the job
>and your employer requires you
>to do something against your
>religious beliefs, and then fires
>you or holds back benefits
>because you refuse, THAT may
>indeed be reason to sue.
>THAT is not the same
>as someone CHOOSING to apply
>for a job. And, if
>you think finding someone willing
>to sue makes your point,
>you will have plenty of
>points to make. It isn't
>something I would be proud
>of, but that is just
>me, I guess... sue everybody.
>
>Actually,I think AshLanie poised a great
>question? When is enough, enough?
>Should we recognize ALL holidays,
>or none? When you consider
>the number of religions in
>this country, is the first
>option fiscally possible? I doubt
>it, but I KNOW the
>second option is NOT desirable.
>
>And here is a news flash
>on the REAL WORLD, as
>so many of you like
>to comment on, the last
>two corporations I worked for,
>Fortune 500 companies both, did
>NOT recognize a single Christian
>holiday. They recognize National holidays,
>not Christian holidays, which means
>no recognition of Good Friday
>or Easter. Christmas is the
>biggest holiday in the country.
>It is a capitalist holiday
>and has less and less
>to do with religion every
>year. So, calling it a
>Christian holiday is kind of
>borderline at this point.
>So, when talking about living in
>a country that only recognizes
>the holidays of one religion,
>realize what you are talking
>about, ONE holiday, basically. And
>also realize where you live.
>If I lived in Israel,I
>would expect to have Yom
>Kippur off. If I lived
>in India, I would expect
>to have whatever off... etc.
>etc.... We could recognize EVERY
>religious holiday and have 30
>national holidays for all I
>care. Sounds GREAT!!! I don't
>own a business though... And
>I guess my employer not
>going out of business might
>be kind of important...

Nice post and stated much better than I had but becareful....you might fall into the caegory of: "one of those people".....as I was by a poster in this very thread.

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Big Al 293 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-11-06, 11:32 AM (EST)

114. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

It is a Christian Holiday. The fact that it has also been made a National Holiday does not change that.

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-11-06, 07:13 AM (EST)

111. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

>Your question was:
>
>"Just how many different religious holidays
>must a business put up
>with?
>
>Each different religion has holidays that
>are important to the repsective
>religion?
>
>Where/when do we say enough is
>enough?"
>
>The answer to the first question
>is none except Christmas which
>is the only religious Holiday
>that I am aware of
>for which most businesses close.
>When Jewish people take off
>Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana,
>aat my compnay and others,
>it is charged against their
>vacation or personal days just
>the same as Christians get
>carged a day if they
>take off Good Friday. Peopl
>taking a religious day off
>are not getting a free
>ride in terms of additional
>time off.
I am an office Manager and a professional interviewer (glorified titled which means no one else in the firm wishes to do this job-chuckling) and actually the people who take off for religious holidays, school functions, etc get a half days pay where I work BUT the day is asked off way in advance so things can be rearranged as needed.

It just seems, after thinking and reading these posts that if in NY the jewsih holidays are so important and Trump knows this, then why not hold off three weeks to begin taping?
This way, the drama of it all would be avoided.....
......But wait, is Trump USING ths situzation to cause drama?
....Is he as accomadating as he wishes the viewers to see?
Something to think about.

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lurker315 0 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "New Member"
04-11-06, 09:29 AM (EST)

113. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I haven't seen this mentioned, but couldn't Lee have worked with his team before and after Yom Kippur? I think the tasks take two days, couldn't he have contributed outside of the proscribed Holy Day?

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Keyser 28 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-11-06, 01:25 PM (EST)

115. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

A couple of points.
1) I doubt that Lee is Orthodox (BTW I am Orthodox) for the following reasons (not exhaustive):
a)His team hasnt won too many tasks, but I dont remember him refraining from eating at reward restaraunts or munching on cereal and cold foods in the suite while others had normal meals. In other words, he doesnt seem to keep the kosher dietary laws.
b) Some of the tasks must be filmed on Saturdays, and he would be therefore missing a lot more tasks.
c) He probably will not be trying to take off for the holiday of Sukkot, which comes 5 days after Yom Kippur.
2) Having said that, a large number of otherwise non-Orthodox Jews take the "high holidays" very seriously (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) and will not work on those days and they go to synagogue, etc. (Obvious examples of Hank Greenberg, Sandy Koufax, Shawn Green, although they weren't 100% about this. A large percentage of non-Orthodox Jews feel more strongly about this). I am sure Lee falls into this category.
3) Unfortunately, there are those who use their religion as a sense of entitlement. They make demands without consideration for others. I have seen this too many times and cringe and am embarrassed every time.
4) I think it is certainly unfair and wrong to attack AshLanie in these posts. We only know of the situation b/c that person brought it up, and we dont know the facts. I think it is quite understandable that if someone calls at the last minute for an interview and the only slots available are unsuitable for religious reasons, then thats too bad for the interviewee. Im sure the response would have been the same had the person said "I have medical appointments" or some other reason which normally one might try to be accomodating if it weren't last minute.
5) I am very happy to be born and live in a country where I am allowed to choose to worship how I wish. However, I recognize that my choices have consequences and that it is not my right to impose my religion on others. There are many jobs in this world that are not 9-5 5 days a week, and I cant expect them to change for me.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-12-06, 02:09 AM (EST)

116. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

GREAT post, Keyser, and hopefully that is a fitting note to wrap up a thoroughly exhausted thread.

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tinkerer 90 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-12-06, 08:02 PM (EST)

117. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Sorry, there are still some points to be made.
Ash Lanie, you said that you offered to reschedule the interview to the Saturday following the High Holy Day. I am not Jewish, so i do not know if the Saturday following the High Holy Day-the next day-is as sacred as the High Holy Day itself.
If it is not, then there is the matter that the job has the right to require you to work on any day, and if you can't, you can be let go, (and presumably not hired in the first place).
The reason I know this is because I read of a case where a Christian who observed Saturday as Sabbath was hired on the agreement that he would not have to work Saturdays, but the company was sold and the new owners planned to stay open on Saturdays. He lost his case, but was allowed, (the company never contested this part), to collect unemployment for six months.
So you might have cause to shoot the applicant down on the Saturday issue, if your company requires people to work on Saturdays as a condition of employment. Again, I don't know if the Saturday following a High Holy Day is special, however.

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-17-06, 06:49 AM (EST)

121. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

LAST EDITED ON 04-17-06 AT 06:56 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 04-17-06 AT 06:52 AM (EST)
>Sorry, there are still some points
>to be made.
>
>Ash Lanie, you said that you
>offered to reschedule the interview
>to the Saturday following the
>High Holy Day. I
>am not Jewish, so i
>do not know if the
>Saturday following the High Holy
>Day-the next day-is as sacred
>as the High Holy Day
>itself.
>
>If it is not, then there
>is the matter that the
>job has the right to
>require you to work on
>any day, and if you
>can't, you can be let
>go, (and presumably not hired
>in the first place).
>
>The reason I know this is
>because I read of a
>case where a Christian who
>observed Saturday as Sabbath was
>hired on the agreement that
>he would not have to
>work Saturdays, but the company
>was sold and the new
>owners planned to stay open
>on Saturdays. He lost
>his case, but was allowed,
>(the company never contested this
>part), to collect unemployment for
>six months.
>
>So you might have cause to
>shoot the applicant down on
>the Saturday issue, if your
>company requires people to work
>on Saturdays as a condition
>of employment. Again, I
>don't know if the Saturday
>following a High Holy Day
>is special, however.

Sigh I never offered to reschedule anything.....that was my point...

I will restate fot the last time:
The ad ran for TWO weeks and it included which days and times one could be cheduled..
Fri and Sat were the days scheduled for interviews (Sat being MY usual day off).
The lady called on Thurs and explained that both days were bad because of religious Jewish holdays...
First, she hadn't been scheduled yet for an appt she was calling to ask if her appt could be a different day for religious reasons.

I explained those were the only two days since it wa on Momday I would be calling the two people who would be hired.
Second, I never change MY schedule to accommodate anyone who calls last minute with any excuse/s.

Third: And this is for the ones who sent me nasty pm's regarding this:
I work for a law firm, let her sue.
Also, I am not an anti-smemtic (which is what three people actually called me within their nasty pm to me).....but could become one REAL quick after the nasty pm's I recieved. Contrary to what some of you typed at me Jews do not hve a monopoly at being priviledged to schedule their appts on their time. I gave up MY FREE Sat to schedule interviews and if people couldn't attend either Fri or Sat for whateve reasons oh well.

If someone wants a job bad enough, it is up to them to be available to be interviewed.

NO where, even though some continue to insist: I never said the person being hired would have to work on Sat but the interviews were being conducted on a Sat which btw is my normal day off.

As I stated in another post:

IF the Jewish holiday is that important to the New York people then why couldn't Trump have postponed the taping til after these two hoidays?
He spoke as if he was in support of these days YET taped on these two days.
Why? Drama! He knew, the producers knew, that there would be drama. He knew, as most here, are not from NY and the show knew the non new yorkers would complain.
Which did happen-on the show and on this board.

I also stated that Lee has plenty of time to prove himself.

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-18-06, 10:20 AM (EST)

127. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Also, I am not an anti-smemtic (which is what three people actually called me within their nasty pm to me).....but could become one REAL quick after the nasty pm's I recieved.
Just for the record, bashing other posters is not permitted on these boards whether it be in the threads or in PMs. You may want to contact a moderator about that issue. You can tell who the moderators are by the blue icon next to their screen names.
Here are the complete guidelines for those new folks out there. You all may want to familiarize yourselves with them.

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-18-06, 05:27 PM (EST)

132. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

>Also, I am not an anti-smemtic
>(which is what three people
>actually called me within their
>nasty pm to me).....but could
>become one REAL quick after
>the nasty pm's I recieved.
>
>
>Just for the record, bashing other
>posters is not permitted on
>these boards whether it be
>in the threads or in
>PMs. You may want to
>contact a moderator about that
>issue. You can tell who
>the moderators are by the
>blue icon next to their
>screen names.
>
>Here are the complete guidelines for
>those new folks out there.
>You all may want to
>familiarize yourselves with them.
>
The quote of mine wasn't bashing others BUT showing I was being bashed.
I do hope you are a moderator (Am color blind so someone having a blue icon means nothing to me) otherwise you have broken one of the guildlines: NOT to correct the members here UNLESS one is a moderator.

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ARnutz 13792 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-18-06, 07:40 PM (EST)

134. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Yes, I understood that. I never said you did anything wrong. My point was if other posters are bashing you and calling you names, if you felt it was innappropriate, then you should contact a moderator.
Here is the part about that:
II. DO NOT ATTACK OTHER MEMBERS
Personal attacks on other members will not be tolerated. Challenging the points of view and the opinions of other members is permitted, but only as long as you can do so respectfully and thoughtfully, without personal attack or insult. If you cannot be tolerant of others' beliefs and opinions, then please avoid introducing, reading or participating in topics that lead to such discussions.
The blue icons are next to the moderators name when you look at the list of posts on the thread. Like AyaK up there, for example.
...otherwise you have broken one of the guildlines: NOT to correct the members here UNLESS one is a moderator.
No, I do not believe that is one of the guidelines. People correct people all the time around here. There are many details and facts that can get muddled on these shows and I know myself that I have been corrected about those facts at times.
I only posted my previous response to try and be helpful to you.
...and now I'll be on my way because I'm getting way off topic of the original intent of this thread.
Sorry, mods!

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-18-06, 10:58 AM (EST)

129. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I really don't have anything against you, but saying you could become anti-semetic because of three little people who PMed you...?
Isn't that kinda harsh?

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AshLanie 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
04-18-06, 05:37 PM (EST)

133. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

>I really don't have anything against
>you, but saying you could
>become anti-semetic because of three
>little people who PMed you...?
>
>Isn't that kinda harsh?

Yes it was harsh (Had many pm's ONLY 3 were courageous enought to outright call me this-others insinuated it)...was trying to say maybe this is why some change their attitudes about classes of people, religious people etc.

Anyhow, I am done with this topic.

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tinkerer 90 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-12-06, 08:15 PM (EST)

118. "Reply to Keyser"

LAST EDITED ON 04-12-06 AT 08:29 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 04-12-06 AT 08:23 PM (EST)
Quote Keyser: 3) Unfortunately, there are those who use their religion as a sense of entitlement. They make demands without consideration for others. I have seen this too many times and cringe and am embarrassed every time.
Keyser, I think yoiu might be bending over backwards trying to seem accommodating because you think Janda might have put people off.
Except for this one unique case, I have never seen anybody give themselves any advantages merely by taking off Rosh Hashanah or yom Kippur.
I went to the New York City public high schools and worked in New York for years. If a Jewish person took off those days, it was just generally understood by all concerned and the job carried on. I cannot recall a single instance where anyone acted with a sense of "entitlement". They just took off the day, everyone understood, and that was that.
I'm not a lawyer, I can't speak for every job in donut shops or places where people are expected to work Sundays or holidays, or any other unique situation. I can only offer my experience that in a regular job in a plant or office, people simply take off the High Holy Days and nobody complains or questions it. End of story.
As far as Lee's situation goes, it is unique. He DID receive an advantage in this, I must admit I never saw that before. Then again, how many job interviews require you to move into a hotel suite for three months with the other applicants while the interview process takes place?
I just feel that overall, Lee was right in expecting to be able to take off without penalty. The interview process is three months, this is New York, I would be shocked if it was held against him. I am somewhat disappointed that given it's unique nature, the game actually went on on those two days, though.
Here's a thought-what about any Jewish cameramen whos job it was to film the other contestants' negatively reacting to Lee's observance of the holdidays? Were they allowed to take off? Uh-oh, better not go there.....

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Pez 56 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-13-06, 02:54 AM (EST)

119. "RE: Reply to Keyser"

They should have just shut down production of the show during the holiday...as they would have if they were shoot during Christmas day.

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alyse73 87 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-14-06, 04:49 PM (EST)

120. "lee works Xmas."

I don't think it is right that during a job interview you duck out for two holidays. Most people in this country have a belief but you notice that stores, malls, wal mart, doctor office etc WORK.

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tinkerer 90 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-18-06, 08:36 AM (EST)

122. "RE: lee works Xmas."

LAST EDITED ON 04-18-06 AT 08:38 AM (EST)
Lee work Xmas? He probably would.
True story. About 12 years ago, it just so happened that the local Subway Sandwich shop was open. When I went in to order a sandwich, (Christmas Dinner was going to be late that night), I told the lone guy behind the counter that I was surprised he was open.
"I'm the owner, and I'm Jewish", he said. "So I gave all the employees off and just decided to open up myself to get whatever business is out there". I would guess Lee would be the same way.

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tinkerer 90 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-18-06, 08:57 AM (EST)

125. "Did Lee Purposely Choose To Be Project Manager Early?"

Just one more slant on this issue.
Being a Project Manager early is hazardous-a very high percentage of Project Managers who lose early in a series get fired. That is because when there are many players, none of them has a job that is so critical that it can cause the loss. Attention focuses on the Project Manager when looking for a reason.
When the task is divided only five ways or four ways, then it is much easier to point the finger at one other person as being responsible for the loss, since each member is therefore responsible for a bigger piece of the action.
Since Trump selected the Project Managers for the first task, Lee volunteered to be Project Manager as early as he could. I'm just wondering if the fact that he was intending to takethe High Holdy Days off might have something to do with that decision, since becoming a Project Manager early is such a dangerous position.
I think his reasoning was that if he loses the task, as Project Manager he'll probably be fired and there will be no conflict. If he wins the task, then when the High Holy Days occur in a week, (I think that in real time, they do about two tasks a week), he'll have the prestige of being a winning Project Manager fresh in everyone's memory and they will be more likely to give him a pass.
My guess is that the producers told Lee beforehand that it would be up to his team whether or not to blame him for any losses which occurred in his abscence, and Lee volunteered for Project Manager as quickly as he could to try to build up prestige so his team would accept his decision.
We'll never know for sure, but I do think that is why Lee wanted to become Project Manager so soon.

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janda3 87 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-18-06, 09:01 AM (EST)

126. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

I live in the same area that Lee lives & know which synagogue he's affilated with (Young Israel-which is an orthodox synagogue). He went to Yeshivas his whole life. If you watch his audition video, you will see that Lee is wearing a yarmulka.
There is a religious radio station based in the new york area called "JM IN THE AM", (91.1 ON THE fm DIAL) You can access their website by going to www.jmintheam.org. click on archives. Dan Brody was interview the day after he was fired (Dan is also Orthodox). He explains in the interview how he & Lee avoided alot of problems such as keeping kosher, filming on the Sabbath (wasn't done) & the observance of the High Holidays (DT arranged for them to go to an orthodox synagogue nearby Trump Towers). DT & co. were very understanding & respectful of their religious observances.
In regard to working on the task before & after the holiday, maybe they felt that it wouldn't be fair to just walk away for the middle of a task, that rather it would be better to sit out of the task.

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dafnaf 38 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-18-06, 10:50 AM (EST)

128. "I don't care much for Lee, but..."

LAST EDITED ON 04-18-06 AT 10:53 AM (EST)
1. a. he apparently does keep kosher in the suite. Look here: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395537683&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
b. from the same article (this one's about Dan, I don't know about Lee): "All I know is Daniel would in no way compromise the holidays or Shabbos for the show," said Brody's brother Steven, adding, "how the show's going to portray that or ignore that, I don't know".
c.+2. It depends on how much of an orthodox he is. My parents are religious orthodox and keep sukkot and all of the other Holidays. My boyfriend's parents are secular, but they celebrate all holidays and observe only Yom Kippur strictly.
Some Jewish people observe only Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana, but not keep shabbat and the rest of the Holidays. Maybe Lee is one of those people.
3. I agree. When I was in the army, some soldiers would lie about having to say prayers each morning, so they were given time off to pray. Some were really praying, of course, but a small group of them would slack off while the rest of us were working.
I don't believe that there are many people who are like that.
4. I agree. That person shouldn't have been so late to set an appointment.

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janedoe 2 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
04-19-06, 09:16 PM (EST)

135. "It's because George is Jewish"

That's it in a nutshell. I have nothing against Lee but I think he should've been the one to go.

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tinkerer 90 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-20-06, 09:46 PM (EST)

136. "RE: It's because George is Jewish"

LAST EDITED ON 04-20-06 AT 11:04 PM (EST)
I don't think you know a great deal about New York City, or the real estate industry in New York City.
People don't get penalized in the real estate industry in New York City for working the High Holy days. End of story. Jews are well represented throughout the city,and especially in the real estate/building industry. On any given High Holy day, a significant amount of your workforce is out.
That's the way it is. I was born and grew up there.
In my opinion, the entire "controversy" was manufactured for the show. As Janda pointed out, efforts were made to allow the observant Jews to remain kosher during in the suite during the months of the filming. Lee showed up for the interview wearing a yarmulke. The filming is in the fall, one of your contestants wears a yarmulke and is provided with ability to cook kosher-but a "controversy" erupts when he takes off the High Holy Days.
Who is Trump and Burnett kidding? You know damn well the Lee and Dan are taking off the High Holy Days, you go along with them all the way, but then act like it is a surprise when they take off?
I blame Trump and Burnett for being unfair to the other contestants. This whole thing was set up to happen.

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Keyser 28 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-25-06, 01:18 PM (EST)

137. "Apology for mistake"

Since I last posted here, in which I speculated that Lee (and by implication Dan) were not Orthodox (and I am Orthodox), I have read some articles (including the ones posted here) about Lee and Dan actually being Orthodox and dealing with some of the issues that I raised. I should have done more research and generally apologize to all and to both of them in particular if they read this.

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BeeBe 41 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-26-06, 01:36 AM (EST)

138. "RE: Apology for mistake"

What a moronic decision it would be to fire Lee for absence due to religious observance. In America? With anti-discrimination laws both federally and in every State? And Christians being expected to be out of work on Christmas and Easter - isn;t that exactly the same thing? The decision to bring Lee into the boardroom based on his absence due to religious activity - THAT warranted a firing of the project manager, because it showed that he was ignorant, completely short-sighted, obtuse about laws obviously applicable to the workplace, and a bigot too dumb even to recognize his own bigotry.

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tinkerer 90 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
05-02-06, 11:44 AM (EST)

140. "RE: Apology for mistake"

LAST EDITED ON 05-02-06 AT 02:04 PM (EST)
As I stated before, I think it was idiotic for the producers to both assure Lee that his religious beliefs would be respected then have the elimination tournament continue with him getting a free pass on those days.

As Janda pointed out, the filming was in Septmembr and Lee showed up to interview for the show wearing a yarmulke. As if the name Bienstock alone wasn't enough clue to let people know whe wouldn't be working Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah.
Most of the Jewish people I know don't wear yarmulkes, but they all take those two days off.
In a previous series, Toral from India was fired because she refused to dress up in a costume. In her defense, she cited some Hindu belief. That excuse was treated with contempt by Trump and George. In truth, Toral certainly looked like she threw that belief up as a last resort to try to prevent being fired.
Wanna bet that Trump got some irate letters from Hindu groups because it turns out there is something about Hindu beliefs and costumes after all, so now Trump has to publicly proclaim his tolerance by giving Lee the day off while the others still have to play the elimination game?
The only correct course was to give everyone off for Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah. As I stated before, Trump runs a real estate company in New York City, and I guarantee that NOBODY in that industry holds it against anyone taking off those two days. Not in New York, no sir. This is a manufactured "controversy" by the show's producers.

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pbe11 3 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
06-05-06, 09:54 AM (EST)

141. "RE: Lee should have been fired"

Sing it on! I agree. It's not an issue of religion, Lee has manipulated so that he cannot be touched out of fear of Trump looking anti-semitic. Which he would NOT have looked like if he fired Lee when he should have, way earlier.

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