|
|
|
|
PLEASE NOTE: The Reality TV World Message Boards are filled with desperate
attention-seekers pretending to be one big happy PG/PG13-rated family. Don't
be fooled. Trying to get everyone to agree with you is like herding cats,
but intolerance for other viewpoints is NOT welcome and respect for other
posters IS required at all times. Jump in and play, and you'll soon find out
how easy it is to fit in, but save your drama for your mama. All members are
encouraged to read the
complete guidelines.
As entertainment critic Roger
Ebert once said, "If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue
with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way."
|
|
|
"OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1"
weltek 16936 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 09:30 AM (EST)
 |
|
"OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
The book is nicely divided into four parts, so let's let that guide our discussions. We'll focus this thread on Book One, where Lefty and Desdemona become husband and wife and flee Smyrna. 1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read? 2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book? 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why? 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why? 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the begining of the book?
|
|
|
Top |
| |
syren 5418 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 09:46 AM (EST)
|
|
1. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
LAST EDITED ON 07-24-07 AT 09:46 AM (EST)1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read? Really, you want to know? My first thoughts were, "Wow, a hermaphrodite?" That was really my very first gut reaction. When I picked it up, I did not even look at the back of the book, just saw it and thought, oh I need that for the OTBC. Went into it blind, and as I started reading I became intrigued. 2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book? I really did not have any previous info on those conflicts. I am totally loving the history behind these books though. It brings them more to life for me. 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why? Yes, as the main reason for the mutation is based on the family. I think it adds to the story more by giving full details and profiles of those family members then saying, 'My grandparents were both carries, and they were brother and sister...' It allows us to know them, to see the love and the bonds no matter how 'wrong' we see the union as. 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why? Not really, well not at this time. I am enjoying the lesbian cousin though. 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the beginning of the book? I am surprised by this book, not something I would pick up and read but so glad I am reading it. I love the way the writer is narrating the story and popping from his memories of the stories into his modern life. Like having a trigger sending you back down memory lane, timing everything together. 
What?
|
|
|
Top |
| |
brvnkrz 20491 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 10:13 AM (EST)
|
|
2. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read?
My gut reaction as I started to read was disappointment because it didn't seem to be what I thought the book was about.
2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book?
I didn't know of the conflicts but was happy to learn about it.
3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In
this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why?
At first I didn't understand why we were getting so much family history. But I do feel that we needed that much history in order to understand how genetics played a part in Cal's "condition".
4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the
modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there
particular characters you are being drawn to? Why?
I personally love Desdemona, something about her makes me want to have a Desdemona in my family. I do enjoy the cousin in Detroit. I guess I can relate to her. *grin*
5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the begining of the book?
I do tend to like books that go back and forth in time between past and present. So this book falls right into line with what I tend to like in a book.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
 |
brvnkrz 20491 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 05:21 PM (EST)
|
|
29. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Yeah but I thought the book was mostly about Cal and her transormation into a man. I didn't know it was going to be largely about the history of Cal's family and how their genetics played a part in Cal. I thought this was going to be about a child who was born a female and then discovered that she was a male and how she dealt with that.
Syren did me again
|
|
|
Top |
| |
geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 10:17 AM (EST)
|
|
3. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I'm not doing the OTBC, but I just have to comment quickly that I'm thrilled you guys are reading this one. I adored this book and have read it three times. Wonderful, wonderful book with some of the best characters and character development ever IMHO.As an aside, as a history and poli/sci geek, I am probably one of the few of WASP background who actually knew the history of the Turk/Greek/Armenian conflicts, which (much like those in Iraq) go back centuries. I know, I'm a geek. 
"Let them call me rebel and welcome, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul by swearing allegiance to one whose character is that of a sottish, stupid, stubborn, worthless, brutish man. I conceive likewise a horrid idea in receiving mercy from a being, who at the last day shall be shrieking to the rocks and mountains to cover him, and fleeing with terror from the orphan, the widow, and the slain of America." Thomas Paine
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 10:36 AM (EST)
|
|
7. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I bought it not knowing a thing about it, just looking for something to read. When I picked it up to begin, I couldn't put it down and read it in frenzied marathon session. Hell, I should just read it again now and join the discussion because I adore this book and characters soooooooooo much.Lefty and Desdemona grossed me out at the beginning, too. But they're probably my favorite characters. Especially Des.
"Let them call me rebel and welcome, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul by swearing allegiance to one whose character is that of a sottish, stupid, stubborn, worthless, brutish man. I conceive likewise a horrid idea in receiving mercy from a being, who at the last day shall be shrieking to the rocks and mountains to cover him, and fleeing with terror from the orphan, the widow, and the slain of America." Thomas Paine
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-28-07, 07:38 PM (EST)
|
|
52. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Me too.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
weltek 16936 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 10:43 AM (EST)
|
|
8. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
It must have been a bit easier to follow with the knowledge you had of the conflict. It probably really brought that history to life for you.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
dragonflies 8051 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 10:19 AM (EST)
|
|
4. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
LAST EDITED ON 07-24-07 AT 10:20 AM (EST)I'm about to head out to Houston, but I did read the first section and part of the second, so I will answer what I can. 1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read? It seemed very rambling. I'm a person who likes orderly things, and it was very confusing for me to keep jumping around. But I did adapt, and got used to it. 2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book? Didn't know much about the conflicts. It seemed to me that not much background was given, especially compared to 1000 Suns. 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why? I think it is important to know the background family history, to see how it affects the characters as they go on through the book. If you don't know some of the history of how Des & Lefty grew up, then it is hard to identify with them as they experience their lives as husband and wife. 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why? I don't remember many of the characters from the beginning of the book. Aside from our author. I am looking forward to reading about what happens to her and then him. 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the beginning of the book? Very rambly, as I said before. He also sticks in a lot of bigger words. Words that are not used in everyday language. I am very intrigued by the medical condition mentioned in the book. I too did a bit of research on it, and find it fascinating. I'm looking forward to getting another copy and finishing it. 
etf bolding
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
brvnkrz 20491 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 10:23 AM (EST)
|
|
5. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
It's funny because when I first learned of the relations between Lefty and Des I was a bit disturbed and wasn't sure that I wanted to continue reading if this is what it was going to be. But as i read on, I found them to be endearing and didn't feel as grossed out about them as I thought I would.
Syren did me again
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 12:56 PM (EST)
|
|
17. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
LAST EDITED ON 07-24-07 AT 12:57 PM (EST)Like you, I didn't feel grossed out about Lefty and Des marrying as brother and sister. If anything, it seemed somewhat inevitable given the nature of the isolated village and the historical situation. I mentioned below that the author gave away Cal's intersex condition and Lefty & Des marriage as brother and sister early in the novel. Although it removed suspense by not being revealed later, it gives it some sense of inevitability, as if "this is the way things are now, like it or not - and everyone did what they thought they must do for their own reasons during those historical and cultural times, and this story is how it came about." Of course the main reason for the taboo of brother-sister marriage (and/or sexual relations) is the serious risk of negative consequences that arise genetically for their offspring. If this biological issue were not present, then the only other reason I can come up with is for family harmony. If they didn't get along and had to divorce later, it could divide the family. I also read somewhere that siblings and cousins genetically share the common pheromones (sexual scents) and that people are generally repelled by similar pheromone scents. In the case of pheromones, opposites attract, so we tend to be attracted to someone who genetically from us, with different pheromones scents than we have. It's probably nature's way of prompting us to mix the gene pool around.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
CTgirl 8013 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 12:04 PM (EST)
|
|
10. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read? Depends on what you consider first starting to read. It took me a few starts to get into it, but once I did, I got into in quickly. I have to admit I was initially bothered by the incest. Cal being a hermaphrodite was on the book cover so you knew that was going to be part of the story.2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book? My husband's grandmother (Thea) was a Greek born in Asia Minor, so I knew about the conflict from stories from my FIL and Thea. She was from a different part of Turkey so her expulsion story is different. She ended up in Athens where her parents arranged a marriage with a Greek man living in New Brunswick, NJ. (At age 18, she sailed off alone to America to marry a stranger 15 years older than her!) The rest of her family scattered - a brother moved to Australia, another to Paris and her sister stayed in Athens. They were a prosperous family in their town and lost it all. Great YiaYia (as we called her, none of her grandchildren married Greek Americans, so we invented a Greek American name for her when she became a great grandmother) was a strong woman with a great sense of humor. You'd never know what she suffered through growing up when you met her. Unless there's more to come, I would've liked a little more history. I thought it was glossed over too quickly. 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why?I love character development and I love the family background in this book. I think it's necessary both to understand Cal's medical condition and where it came from and the Greek immigrant experience in Detroit.
4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why?I'm not drawn to anyone yet, but I've only read book one. I stopped to read Harry Potter!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
weltek 16936 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 12:09 PM (EST)
|
|
12. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
It must be really fun to read this with a Greek immigrant heritage. So much of the language and rituals is foreign to me, so I got hung up on trying to understand those too often.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
CTgirl 8013 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 04:37 PM (EST)
|
|
25. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
It is fun and it does help to know some of the heritage (although I don't know a lot since I married into it and my heritage is Anglo-Irish). What is really interesting too is to see what I recognize and understand and what is new to me. Like so many cultures, it depends on where you were from originally. There were some customs that DH's grandmother had and some food she cooked that no other Greek family we've met has ever heard of before (probably because of the Turkish and Armenian influences in Asia Minor). Now, the only custom that is still part of the family is Greek Easter (like cracking the eggs he wrote about).
|
|
|
Top |
| |
weltek 16936 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 12:07 PM (EST)
|
|
11. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read?
I couldn't believe the nonchallance with which the Lefty and Desdemona relationship seemed to be treated. As it unfolded, I became comfortable with it and realized it probably happened with immigrants more than I know. 2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book?
I didn't know anything about it and wish it would've been explained more fully in the book 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why?
I was wavering at first. I almost felt like it was a different book, we were getting so much "background" info. I wanted to hear more about Callie. However, as the book progressed, I changed my mind. 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why?
I immediately wanted to hear more about the doctor, so was glad he was a recurring character in the book. My curiosity was also piqued about Milton. For his generation, he seemed less stereotypical than I imagined. I also loved Aunt Lina immediately. 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the begining of the book?
In the first part of the book, I was having trouble with rotating from present day, to midlife, to family history so much. It took some getting used to.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 12:43 PM (EST)
|
|
15. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I know it's wiki, but here's the link to the wiki primer on the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922). From reading this, it seems like some of the Europeans powers, particularly the British, prompted the Greeks to try to cut the Turks down to size and failed miserably. Furthermore, it look like it was a particularly brutal war for civilians on both sides of the conflict within the disputed areas.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
weltek 16936 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 12:53 PM (EST)
|
|
16. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Thank you! I enjoy abbreviated history. 
|
|
|
Top |
| |
cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 12:19 PM (EST)
|
|
13. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
LAST EDITED ON 07-24-07 AT 06:09 PM (EST)1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read? The first thing this book aroused was scientific curiosity on my part. After the very early revelation of Cal's gender ambiguity resulting from a 5-Alpha Reductase chromosome mutation, I put the book down and jumped into a number of medical websites about this and other biological intersex conditions, along with a look at the Intersex Society of America website and other sites that gave some information which geographical/ethnic groups were prone to have children born with intersex conditions. I found out that many more people are affected by intersex conditions than I had realized.I also found that I actually knew very little about how gender develops during and after conception and the importance of certain hormones to do their work to complete fetal gender development, with far more conditions than I had supposed might exist (e.g., Turner Syndrom, Perrault Syndrome and many others). There's sort of a Murphy's Law here in that if anything can go wrong, it sometimes will, with undesirable results. I also cheated (something I rarely do) and jumped to the second chapter in Book Four, "Looking Myself Up in Webster's", which is the point where Cal realizes what his real gender condition is. So, my first reaction, after only a few pages, was to delve into the medical literature and educate myself before moving on with the story. Only after this I went back to the story, still very early in the first chapter. 2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book? As a military history buff with dozens of books on the subject, I'm fairly familiar with the history of this conflict and the underlying history (which goes back at least to the time of the early Islamic conquests, if not the earlier Greek and Roman imperial conquests). Having said that, I'm not too familiar with Turkish-Greek politics as it relates to the other European powers (and the U.S.) between WW1 and WW2. Again, I was tempted to jump into the Web and educate myself further, but after all time I spent into the Web research into intersex conditions, I figured I'd better keep moving with the story itself. 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why? I didn't read The Last Summer, but as far as this novel goes, family history is an essential element of the story, maybe even the essential element. This history and cultural background leads later events into the direction they went. Without knowledge of this history, we would be confused about why things happened as they did. We would, with personal biases, wonder why a brother and sister married against all social and religious taboos.Having lived abroad for so many years, I found this history and social background quite believable, even though it varies from what many of us modern Americans might consider acceptable norms. 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why? Initially, I was drawn most to Cal through Book One. After all, the story is told from his perspective. As the story progressed historically, I found myself most drawn to Cal's grandmother, Desdemona. The rest of the family are still of interest to me and I'm curious who will play a more prominent role in events as the story unfolds later in the novel. 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the begining of the book? At first I was disappointed that the author gave away the ending right at the start. Most novels of this nature would hold that information back until the later stages of the story. For me, anyway, it removed a lot of suspense that could have been there. It's what prompted me to go ahead and jump into that chapter in Book Four I mentioned earlier.I like the narrative style, with the detail of level it gives. An example is the long description of the Ford factory and what it is like working in it. The narrative repeats itself intentionally to emphasize the demeaning non-thinking repetitive work imposed by the production line process. I also suspend judgment on some of the narrative that is presented as fact. The medical literature supports the underlying intersex condition. I still wonder if historical literature will support some of the novel's assertions about the Turk-Greek war (were the Turks so brutal and the Greeks so militarily inept in this conflict?), as well as about the intrusive home visits by Ford's men acting as social workers. It wouldn't surprise me if this was all true (surmising that the author knows his facts), but I take it with a grain of salt until I can read more literature on these and other subjects that the novel presents as historically factual background. As a whole, I find this book an engaging read. I'm curious how things will unfold, although I don't feel compelled to "zip through the pages to find out what happens in the end", as we pretty much already know the end (or we might think so, perhaps erroneously). For now, I'm reading it at a steady pace during my free time, usually as a bedtime read. 
Foo dogs by tribe
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
weltek 16936 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 12:27 PM (EST)
|
|
14. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I never thought about how I wasn't compelled to zip through to the end. You are right, that actually makes some literary sense now as to why so much was given away at the begining. I might have otherwise felt impatient and blown through really important, but seemingly trivial, parts of the book.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
|
07-24-07, 04:17 PM (EST)
|
|
20. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
At first I was disappointed that the author gave away the ending right at the start. Most novels of this nature would hold that information back until the later stages of the story. For me, anyway, it removed a lot of suspense that could have been there. It's what prompted me to go ahead and jump into that chapter in Book Four I mentioned earlier.I don't know that the author did give away the ending, necessarily. I think that you're right that most novels addressing gender identity and a hermaphrodite might make the big reveal of "the condition" the ending, but in this novel I think it was conscious choice by the author to have it be there from the very beginning. After all, it was present from the moment of Cal's birth - so like the story, it was a fact that was there all along but only really discussed and explored after he (and we) had already formed an opinion of Cal. I'm curious - why do you think we already know the ending or that mentioning it at the beginning is a giveaway? (I know, you did say, perhaps we think we know the end erroneously so you've already considered that what you think of as "the end" might not be.) But why would the revelation of his gender be "the end"? 
Summer fun, Sharnina-style!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 04:19 PM (EST)
|
|
21. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I'm with you Fro, I didn't see it as giving away the ending.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
brvnkrz 20491 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 05:23 PM (EST)
|
|
30. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Me neither. I had never even considered that the ending had been given away. Hmmm.
Syren did me again
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 05:47 PM (EST)
|
|
33. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Let's suppose the story didn't start with the future Cal looking back, but instead maybe with the silver spoon divining of the baby's gender. The spoon apparently makes an erroneous prediction, as Calliope is apparently born a girl, which is what everyone wants. This little puzzle about the inexplicable error in divination could be a disturbing clue to last for much of the rest of the book until the discovery is made that something doesn't quite jive, and Calliope is indeed male.From the birth onwards, we could follow Calliope's life as she would view it, thinking she was a girl, and all of the things that happen in her life until the discovery. (How this happens we don't know yet in Book One.) Throughout we could still be given clues to the historical and family background, leaving out the secret of Desdemona and Lefty's being siblings, viewing them as they present themselves to everyone else, also not knowing there is only one other person (the cousin) in on the secret. Then, boom, the big discovery. Only from that point then we might delve into the more accurate details of historical past and background to see just how it came to pass, although some we've been given some clues (like the spoon) earlier. Actually, I don't know what the ending is or what direction it'll take from Book Two onwards, but we know based on Cal's statements in the opening few pages that his is an inbred family and the discovery will be made about his genetic makeup eventually as he looks back upon it. And we're told of the whole history of how this came about in Book One. So as readers, we are spared the initial shock Calliope and her family face in discovering that she is in fact a he, and then the uncovering the secrets of how it came about. I expect later in the book we will see how this unfolds, but we won't share the same shock as they will, already knowing some of the key facts given to us by the Cal of the future in the story's earliest pages. Maybe "giving away the ending" is a poor phrase to describe what I mean. (And that, not even knowing the ending yet anyway.) What I do mean is that, as readers, we've already been given facts from the very earliest pages of the novel that won't even come to light to everyone else until much later during the telling of the story. And as readers, we won't experience the same kind of emotional shock or psychological impact that the characters in the story are likely to encounter when the time of discovery comes. There is a plus side to this in that we're pretty much prepared for what comes next, although we don't know exactly what comes next. This makes the novel an easier read with less anxiety to rush through it, but it also takes away some of the suspense and sharing of the character's initial emotional impact.
Foo dogs by tribe
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
|
07-24-07, 06:43 PM (EST)
|
|
34. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I see your point, cahaya. Maybe we can go more into this when we're all finished with the book, because I think that my perspective is coming from having finished it already. I think that after having read parts one and two, I probably felt the same way. Actually, it's what Bravie said upthread: Yeah but I thought the book was mostly about Cal and her transormation into a man. I didn't know it was going to be largely about the history of Cal's family and how their genetics played a part in Cal. I thought this was going to be about a child who was born a female and then discovered that she was a male and how she dealt with that. I think if it were a book about a child who was born a female and discovered she was male, then I'd probably write it the way you've outlined. Maybe it's better to revisit it in a later discussion - how does your perspective of what the book's about change while you read it?
Summer fun, Sharnina-style!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 07:44 PM (EST)
|
|
35. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Good points there, particularly with Bravie's comments. I'm curious how the rest of the story, and the transformational style of its telling, will unfold. It's done in a unique way, and that is one of several aspects of the story that's holding my interest.
Foo dogs by tribe
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-25-07, 08:09 AM (EST)
|
|
36. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I still wonder if historical literature will support some of the novel's assertions about the Turk-Greek war (were the Turks so brutal and the Greeks so militarily inept in this conflict?), as well as about the intrusive home visits by Ford's men acting as social workers. It wouldn't surprise me if this was all true (surmising that the author knows his facts), but I take it with a grain of salt until I can read more literature on these and other subjects that the novel presents as historically factual background.Remember that it's Cal doing the narration and the convoluted history of the Greeks, Armenians, and Turks is being told through his point of view. If the main character was a Turk, I think you might hear the story of the history a little differently. Also, the history of the Sociological Department at Ford is absolutely true. He had over 150 staff members in the department, most of them investigators, who made sure that Ford employees maintained the approved lifestyle as set out in the program for what he called "profit sharing." Which was really just an increased wage for conforming to his rules of behavior on and off the job in order for the conforming employees to be able to actually buy a Ford. Henry Ford is a fascinating and very, very scary subject for research all on his own. As much as we laud him for his innovations in manufacturing, pricing, and the rise of the middle class in America, he was also monomaniacal, racist, and dictatorial.
"Let them call me rebel and welcome, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul by swearing allegiance to one whose character is that of a sottish, stupid, stubborn, worthless, brutish man. I conceive likewise a horrid idea in receiving mercy from a being, who at the last day shall be shrieking to the rocks and mountains to cover him, and fleeing with terror from the orphan, the widow, and the slain of America." Thomas Paine
|
|
|
Top |
| |
frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
|
07-24-07, 04:02 PM (EST)
|
|
18. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read?
Honestly, my first reaction was, after the first two OTBC books, the print in this one was smaller and much closer together and I didn't know after the first few pages whether I'd make it all the way through. However, someone (Weltek? Bravie?) said in another thread that it was a slow starter but got better, so I stuck with it. I'm glad I did - I really enjoyed this book.As far as the subject - I was really interested. A few courses I took in college covered social and genetic gender issues, and I find the whole nature vs. nurture development of gender identity really interesting. 2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book?
I don't think the historical development is as deep as it was in "A Thousand Splendid Suns" and I don't know that there's as much of a parallel between the main story and the history. I didn't know much about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts - I find history interesting but I'm not what anyone would call a history buff. I think the personal family history is more important to the story. 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why?
I do think the family history is important to the story - in a lot of ways, it *is* the story. Genetics are developed over centuries and centuries of a person's family line, and who a person becomes is as much a factor of his/her upbringing as it is his/her genetic makeup. 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why?
I like Sourmelina and the fact that she didn't question Lefty and Desdemona, and faithfully kept their secret. I found more to like about the rest of the family later on in the book. 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the begining of the book?
I like the style of writing - I like how it's a story that's intertwined and turns back on its own history to relate to the present.
Summer fun, Sharnina-style!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 04:15 PM (EST)
|
|
19. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
who a person becomes is as much a factor of his/her upbringing as it is his/her genetic makeup.
Which was a huge part of Dr Luce's research.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-25-07, 08:11 AM (EST)
|
|
37. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Exactly! I didn't mean that Dr Luce was correct. Actually later in the book, Cal discusses how most of Dr Luce's research is canned... because yes, genetics trumps how someone is raised. Also just because a person is raised one way, doesn't mean they like it. Right? They just go along with the parents or whomever until they are out on their own and can decide what's really right for them.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
brvnkrz 20491 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-25-07, 08:43 AM (EST)
|
|
38. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
And then they eat GORP. Hrmph. *snort*
Syren did me again
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-25-07, 08:56 AM (EST)
|
|
40. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
LMAO
|
|
|
Top |
| |
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 04:31 PM (EST)
|
|
23. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read?
It had me from the second page. I found the narrative wonderfully written and the characters engaging.2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book?
Knew nothing and enjoyed the brief history lesson. Unlike ATSS it didn't go into great politcal detail, but instead kept the history on a personal level. 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why?
Very necessary. Like others have said, because the whole story of Cal is based on his genetic makeup we had to know what was in those genes. 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why?
I loved Des, just loved her. She was old world, but also very open minded and strong. It was surprising to read of a woman in that day and age going into to get her tubes tied. I would think it was unheard of in that era. 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the begining of the book?
I really enjoyed this style of writing. I will have to check out other books by him.  
Save a horse, ride a cowboy.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
CTgirl 8013 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-24-07, 04:46 PM (EST)
|
|
26. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
It was surprising to read of a woman in that day and age going into to get her tubes tied. I would think it was unheard of in that era.To the best of my knowledge, the Greek Orthodox church doesn't have any restrictions on birth control. My mom had her tubes tied in 1964 (after her third c-section). To have it done,the hospital made her get notarized permission from my dad! The decision wasn't hard for them, the hard part was finding two non-Catholic friends who would serve as witnesses (for the notary)!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
Karchita 4483 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
|
07-24-07, 05:23 PM (EST)
|
|
31. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read? My very first reaction was ‘ugh, I don’t think I can finish this’. I am not all that interested in transgender issues and the writing style put me off.
2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book? Yes. I have traveled in both Greece and Turkey and been to Izmir (Smyrna) and Bursa and had a vague understanding of how Smyrna was destroyed after the Greeks left. I have an Armenian friend and learned a lot about his family history of leaving Turkey and surviving genocide when his mother died. I also recently saw an excellent PBS show on the Armenian genocide (which the Turks still deny).
Compared to ATSS, I thought the historical info was less clear.
3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why? I don’t think this much detail is necessary although I know some was to explain the incest and genetic roots of Callie’s condition. My gripe was that many of the details seemed excessive, repetitive, disorganized, and purposeless. As I mentioned in the other thread, I skipped or skimmed pages of the worst of the digressions (basically all the stuff Cahaya liked!). Normally I would stop reading a book if dislike it so much that I am skipping parts, but I perserved with Middlesex because of this book club.
4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why? No, I wasn’t particularly drawn to anyone. I really had trouble getting through the first part of this book.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
brvnkrz 20491 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-25-07, 09:38 AM (EST)
|
|
42. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I know that I'm being picky about this but I feel like I need to say something. This isn't a transgender issue. Transgender is someone wanting to appear as the opposite sex. That includes but is not limited to crossdressing and gender reasignment surgery. Cal was born as a hermpahrodite. Like I said, I know I'm being picky about the words being used but just wanted to point it out.
Syren did me again
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
weltek 16936 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-25-07, 10:06 AM (EST)
|
|
43. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
That seperation was important to me as I read the book. I have a close coworker that is transgender. I carefully try not to lump the two things together, although I'm sure the feelings of being trapped inside someone else's body resonate with both (for hermaphrodites that are raised as something other than what their boy feels and the transgendered). I might as well share the story of my coworker B here. I think I've done so elsewhere. B was a boy throughout most of his life, helped his father in the construction business and took up bodybuilding after high school. B got married to a woman named L while pursuing his PhD in psychology. About five years after the marriage, B came out that he wanted to live as a woman, that he'd always felt he was a woman trapped in a man's body. B&L are still married, but B is fully living as a woman and has had several surgeries. Sure, the voice is deep and the body is still very man shaped, but B otherwise lives the life of a woman. She's very good with cars and building things, though. I know B still gets lots of looks and feels very uncomfortable among several coworkers, but has been doing talks on transgender issues with student groups and in courses. I think this is helping her become more comfortable with herself. Unfortunately for us, dealing with some of her performance issues at work is quite complex, because she has such a fear of asking questions and coming under strutiny, etc. and we understand where that must come from. B also has a wickedly funny sense of humor. She talks about what it's been like getting used to carrying a purse and such.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-25-07, 11:24 AM (EST)
|
|
44. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
This isn't a transgender issue... I know I'm being picky about the words being used but just wanted to point it out.Yup, exactly. That's why the very first thing I did after reading the first pages of the novel, and being unfamiliar with all of the various chromosomal/hormonal conditions and terminology, was to hop onto the Web and read the medical literature on all this. What I got out of that research is that gender development during conception and in the womb is a very complex and sensitive process, with quite a number of different possible results other than just 'male' or 'female'. I understand a lot better now the causes and issues of intersex development and how it differs from transgender issues.
Foo dogs by tribe
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Karchita 4483 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
|
07-25-07, 06:27 PM (EST)
|
|
45. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
You are absolutely correct to point out that transgender wasn't the right word. I don't know why, but the whole topic just has never aroused much interest for me, thus my carelessness.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-25-07, 07:09 PM (EST)
|
|
46. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Well, don't feel bad. It wasn't until I looked up info on the Web (following from reading the first few pages of this novel) that I understood the distinction between the terms intersex and transgender. I imagine that most people aren't aware of the distinction between the two, nor the underlying causes of either.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
Lasann 3616 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
|
07-25-07, 09:20 AM (EST)
|
|
41. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read?I was amused that the brother was referred to as "Chapter Eleven".2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book? No I didn't. I am rather history dumb outside of the US. I've learned so much history through novels like this one. I haven't research further but will later. 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why? I love the family history background along with the customs and history. I find all the characters as real people. I giggled at Desdemona's attempts to get her brother married off (the makeup lessons etc.) Enjoyed feeling the scene at Smyrna and the story around the doctor. I also giggled at the life boat part. 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why? At this time I don't think I'm drawn to anyone yet. 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the begining of the book? The simplicity of few characters, in the beginning, allows me to follow the jumps from past to present. I find as I read further that I like the jumps and transitions. It reads, to me, like my mind works; first here, then deeper, then back up, away shortly, then back. I have read to Part 3 and I am getting really impatient now. I want to get to the main subject! I want to learn of the awareness of her condition. I think I'm almost there.
Sharnina has outdone herself this time!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
Asrai 6083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-26-07, 02:59 PM (EST)
|
|
47. "Just had to say..." |
That while shopping at Costco the other day, I mentioned to GF that OT's Book Club was reading Middlesex. At the checkout, I noticed the book in the cart. Awww! When I asked her why she bought it, she said "cause your friends are reading it."Of course, since I am reading HPDH, she is reading Middlesex. Last night while we were in bed reading, she stated that she just got grossed out. When I asked her why, she said told me that she was at the part with the whore (not sure if this was the actual book term or hers) and the likeness to his sister. Ewww! As soon as she's done, I'll read it, too.
Summer Siggies by Sharnina
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
syren 5418 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-26-07, 03:14 PM (EST)
|
|
48. "RE: Just had to say..." |
When that scene comes totally to light, with everything surrounding them and their circumstances, you no longer will be grossed out.
What?
|
|
|
Top |
| |
samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-28-07, 07:36 PM (EST)
|
|
51. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
1. What was your first gut reaction to this book, as you started to read?Damn, this is a long book. I had to wonder of course if I would be able to read it just because it was long. But I stayed with it. 2. Did you know anything previously about the Turkish/Greek/Armenian conflicts? One thing we seemed to enjoy about "A Thousand Splendid Suns," was the history lesson within. How would you compare the delivery of the historical background in this book? I did not know anything. I can't spell the other author's name. One thing I liked about him was that he always offered good explanations for strange words. And he made me care. I think there was too much other stuff in Middlesex that I was looking forward to that I didn't care as much about the history. 3. In "The Last Summer of You and Me," some of us complained we didn't get enough of a background story on the characters. In this book, a very large portion of it is spent on family history. Do you think this much family history is necessary to the story? Why? Absolutely. It gives more of a reason behind everything. I went through such a waive of emotions while reading it. I was somewhat appalled by the fact that Lefty and Des were siblings and ended up married. I thought it quite disgusting. But because of all of the history and the way it was told, I found myself rooting for them. 4. In this first section, we are also introduced to the modern Stephanides family and several other characters for a brief moment, in addition to Lefty and Desdemona. Are there particular characters you are being drawn to? Why? I wasn't exactly drawn to anyone in particular. However, after reading the whole book (Yay me!), I have found that I want to go back and re-read the first section. I did find in this section (and throughout) that I was drawn to Chapter Eleven - more so as to why he is called that. 5. Any other comments on the story or style of the writer as it pertains to the begining of the book? No. Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
Asrai 6083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-29-07, 01:39 AM (EST)
|
|
53. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
GF is still reading this book, so I can't really join the actual discussion yet. Of course, every so often, she feels the need to update me on the progression of the story.The bad thing about that is that I feel like I know these people in passing when I really just want to sit and have coffee with them as they ramble on about their life. *screams at GF to hurry up with the book so I can read*
Summer Siggies by Sharnina
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-29-07, 09:32 AM (EST)
|
|
54. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
You could borrow mine. For once, I am AHEAD of the game. *steals Breezy's chair*
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-30-07, 08:41 AM (EST)
|
|
55. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Too late. I finished it ages ago. *grin*I have Poisonwood Bible sitting at home... trying to not read it until it's closer to it's discussion time though.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-30-07, 09:12 AM (EST)
|
|
56. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Figures. Well, I'm gonna be done with Memory Keeper very soon. Have you read that too? And don't forget, I'll be with Weltek next weekend, so I'm sure we'll have "dork time."I need to get Poisonwood. That's the next one, yes? Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-30-07, 09:25 AM (EST)
|
|
57. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Yep I think Poisonwood is next. I have Memory Keeper in my que to be sent to me. I'm sure there'll be lots of dork time. *snort*
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-30-07, 10:13 AM (EST)
|
|
58. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I've got a "head light" on my list of things to bring so that I can do a lot of reading.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-30-07, 10:15 AM (EST)
|
|
59. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
LMAO *snort* Don't forget your mouth guard! *snort* You'll look like the dorks in Sixteen Candles. *snort*
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
|
07-30-07, 11:11 AM (EST)
|
|
60. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Memory Keeper's Daughter is next. I dug up the schedule:BOO June 18 The Last Day of Summer (of you and me) -Ann Brashares
BREEZY July 9 One Thousands Splendid Suns - Khaled Hossieni
WELTEK July 30 Middelsex - Jeffrey Eugenides
SMOKEYSMOM Aug 20 The Memory Keeper's Daughter - Kim Edwards
FRODIS Sept 10 Poisonwood Bible - Barbara Kingslover
SYREN Oct 1 Comeback -Claire & Mia Fontaine
SHARNINA Oct 22 The Road - Cormic McCarthy (Whew - I haven't found my copy of Poisonwood Bible yet in order to re-read. It's amid a pile of clutter that I've been pretending doesn't exist.)
Summer fun, Sharnina-style!
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
weltek 16936 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-30-07, 11:21 AM (EST)
|
|
61. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
I'm ahead of the game for a bit. I started reading TMKD on a plane trip where I forgot to bring a second book, and recalled we'd be reading this soon.And I've read TPB, so will just need to refresh myself on that. Good, this will give me time to read the Obama book Bravie loaned me.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
07-30-07, 11:22 AM (EST)
|
|
62. "RE: OTBC: Middlesex Discussion 1" |
Ack! I had those two mixed up.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
|
|
Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic
Bookmark this topic (Registered users only)
