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"Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
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11-25-05, 12:06 PM (EST)
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"Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
LAST EDITED ON 11-25-05 AT 01:46 PM (EST)Turkey and pecking order challenges is just what VerucaSalt ordered!! I started a new thread though I had thought we would wait until the final four are situated. But, clean sheets......(rosie  ) Prior links:
http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/6129.shtml http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/cgi-bin/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6084&forum=DCForumID2&omm=0 http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/5982.shtml Was there a lot of happenings going on this episode or perhaps the tryptophan in my poultry worked overtime? And so the next phase begins........... The Recap Showcased the challenge
Lydia couldn’t keep up
Danni and Stephenie surged ahead
The bonding shown of the two of them
Judd’s suspicion with Gary
Rafe’s coming away with victory
Judd’s reassurances that Gary was next
Lydia, Stephenie and Rafe conspiring behind Judd’s back At Tribal Council, Judd was surprised to see his alliance turn on one its own Lying, trust, honor, and so forth again wield a mighty image during this episode and it has been gathering steam for quite a few episodes as earlier themes played out and new ones have begun. As Danni had stated: ”That was some crazy shenanigans” I am relaying the show more or less in chronological order because there was a huge amount of editing done which made scenes and dialogue somewhat curious and out of sequence and by chronological order we can see where they seemed a bit “off” Judd “We’re supposed to be an alliance of six; kinda went bezerk today. Here comes the backstabbing and lying and it makes me wonder what the hell is going on” With that, Gary and Lydia decide they feel blessed with one another. Ominous tone delivered by Judd after that Tribal Council and with the following conversation, clearly the storm is coming. Rafe “It feels like all is right in Survivor world”
Stephenie “It is; just for a minute” Alliance talk and number talk was prevalent throughout this episode. As we have seen in the past, generally speaking, when one hears TOO much talk about a group and numbers, it normally does NOT come to fruition. This is probably one of the few editing patterns in Survivor that is more or less reliable. Lydia obviously had a extremely large increase in face time and confessionals. Obviously the story would dictate such as she is now on the “outside looking in” of an alliance that she was sitting comfortably with and she was the person that was approached to shatter this alliance. The seeds of vulnerability have now been firmly planted and we are watching them grown Lydia “I thought about whether I did the right thing (voting Jamie) I don’t know if this alliance is still strong I have to figure this out carefully. If I don’t, I’m going to be the next target” (Interesting how only Lydia was shown as to whether she did the right thing; like last week, Jamie’s elimination is made to appear that it rested entirely on Lydia) Out of sequence footage was apparent in the conversation between Gary and Lydia in the early mornings as follows: Gary “Who are they voting off next? Do you know the order?” (Lydia nods - note though that there was only a nod from Lydia and NO dialogue. Notice her buff is laying on her right shoulder) Gary “Who is making the decisions? Steph?” (Again, no words from Lydia, only a nod and her buff is now on her left shoulder) Obviously a situation occurred since Judd tells us that Gary was working Lydia over but interesting to note that this scene was manipulated. The point was clear though that Lydia was breaking ranks and Gary was behind it Gary “.....whoever are the tightest four are going someplace At this point, Judd lets Stephenie and Rafe know what is going on
Stephenie “She’s not going to go with it”
Judd “He wants to get her in bad”
Rafe “Just as long as Cindy stays with us” Rafe confessional “I think Judd has changed (like Rafe mentioned about Jamie?) and is feeling insecure and wants to find security so I think Stephenie and I can give him that” (Again, Rafe sets tone with his narration; these sequences seem slightly off in their order) Rafe “Me and Stephenie and Judd are pretty confident with each other at this point and I think Gary and Danni have managed to pull over Lydia in a real way” (Again, potentially out of sequence since this came almost immediately after Gary and Lydia woke up with Judd watching and Rafe just got done telling us that Judd was insecure (but now confident?) and states that Gary and Danni have managed to pull over Lydia in a real way (after a brief conversation in the morning that Gary had with Lydia?) Again, editing to reinforce the tone that Lydia is completely gone from their group and Gary managed to do this successfully. This conversation probably happened much later in the day but inserted here early on to immediately help set up the events) Judd “Gary had told me he wanted Cindy and Lydia out of the game and now he wants THEM in the game and make an alliance with THEM; that’s a big lie (When did Cindy become part of this strategy? Yet Judd clearly stated them which makes me question what we weren’t shown here. If Cindy was ALSO approached but Cindy turned Gary (or Danni) down it wasn’t shown since the plan failed. I find it interesting that Cindy is absent in many discussions and/or her name is not brought up in situations) Gary (to Lydia) “We gotta have four. I’d rather go with you then some of them.... (and)... ”Final four”
Lydia “.......wasn’t sure about Cindy” (Cindy NOW gets brought up and this after Judd’s confessional about Gary wanted THEM to be in an alliance. Cindy’s involvement in this potential coup was not what the editors wanted to focus on but rather, Lydia’s) Lydia confessional “We have final five but I have to see how far this can take me; if someone approaches me with a better deal, I’m going with it!” The remainder of Lydia’s story is commencing in earnest. She was the championed underdog in early episodes and now being discarded. Lydia’s second act is surging ahead and I daresay there may have been quite a lot more involved then the snippets we may have seen. For Lydia to immediately target Stephenie in the reward challenge with Stephenie’s immediate response to same does not seem to come from “simply” brief conversations that occurred with Gary and Lydia. With great pleasure I viewed the challenge (as emy knows ) I was fascinated to see that it played out initialy unlike any other pecking order challenge of which my reasoning is above The Challenge (Everyone but Stephenie gets the question correct)
First Round
Judd hits Gary
(Jeff: Nothing subtle about that Gary)
Lydia hits Steph
(Stephenie: “How did I know that?”)
Danni hits Steph
Cindy hits Gary
Rafe hits Danni
(Jeff: Gary has two people to pay back)
Gary hits Cindy (Judd and Cindy clearly marking Gary. Interesting to note that Rafe takes a different approach with hitting Danni as opposed to Gary. Also interesting to note that Danni hits Stephenie since Stephenie is the perceived leader, one would suspect Danni would not have wanted to call that much attention to herself. In addition, Rafe hitting Danni over Gary is also a bit interesting in perhaps a deflection? In light of the events we were shown earlier, Lydia hitting Steph was a foregone conclusion yet the fact that Lydia would call such attention by doing this does make me question what happened other than the small pieces we were shown. Judd and Cindy are clearly consistent with their pecking order. Gary hitting Cindy may be clear “payback” but why not hit Judd? There was something deeper with Gary and Cindy that was not shown as it probably wasn’t relevant but there was clear animosity between these two yet the audience did not get to see this) Stephenie and Gary have one pot left with Cindy and Danni having two pots left and Rafe and Lydia with all pots left (Rafe not even appearing as someone to target and Lydia perhaps not even important enough to target.) Second Round (Only Lydia, Danni and Cindy correct; nice note of Stephenie peeking and STILL wrong )
Lydia hits Stephenie
(Steph: Jealously get you nowhere)
(Lydia: I want to eat)
(Stephenie: We’ll see about that)
(Lydia: She ate three times)
(Stephenie: “So did Gary, so did Danni”) (Steph is now out)
Danni hits Judd
Cindy hits Gary (Jeff: “Boy she’s winding up) Danni clearly has her own pecking order by going with Judd now that Stephenie was eliminated (and which was her first hit target; a pretty “gutsy” (or not?) move for someone who is clearly the target after Gary) Lydia again strikes down Stephenie (which strategy wise, again, is horrific for Lydia and says much more than earlier shown and Cindy finishes the last person, Gary, in the heirarchy) Gary and Stephenie - the strong - are out. Again, Rafe and Lydia’s pots are intact
Third Round (Lydia, Danni, Cindy and Rafe are correct)
Lydia hits Judd
Danni hits Judd
Cindy hits Danni
Rafe hits Danni
(Stephenie to Danni: “Come join the Loser’s Lounge”) Lydia firmly on board with Gary and Danni apparently as she goes right for Judd as does Danni again; Danni making no bones about her eliminating the strong players which, again, is a bit curious. Cindy and Rafe, predictably take out the next target of their game, Danni Judd and Danni join Stephenie and Gary with Rafe and Lydia’s pots intact and Cindy with two left Fourth Round (Rafe is the only one correct)
Rafe hits Lydia (Stephenie approves) Natural selection. What is interesting is that the audience would have sat up and took notice of Rafe’s selection IF the prior events surrounding Lydia were not shown as pecking order challenges are there to REVEAL what goes on in the alliances to lend surprise to those in the alliance as well as the audience. The editing already furnished us with the answer as opposed to prior pecking order challenges. Fifth Question (Everyone is correct)
Cindy hits Lydia
Rafe hits Lydia
Lydia hits Rafe
(Jeff: Lydia’s done; does her damage) Lydia choosing Rafe to hit over Cindy may simply be her thinking that if Cindy won, she would take Lydia which I also found interesting since Rafe and Lydia appeared to be very close; at this point, why would Lydia not think Rafe may take her? Sixth and Seventh Questions (With two people left, they target each other) Cindy hits Rafe both times with Cindy winning Cindy “This is the most difficult decision of the whole game” (will it be?)
Jeff “Pick one......”
Cindy “I’ll go with Rafe (These types of statements do give one pause to question if they may mimic future events? Obviously this happened but as you know, I always get suspicious) Stephenie confessional “I was the first one out. Lydia hits me twice, Danni hits me once, knocked me right out. ........boo hoo for Lydia. I’m sick of hearing your crap. You are lucky you are still in this game” (More animosity naturally for Lydia and it is hard to believe this animosity is simply from this ONE conversation of Gary/Lydia?) Stephenie confessional “There’s a winner and a loser in this game. If you are gonna be jealous you are an idiot” You think a challenge like this isn’t going to show me where your loyalities lie, you’re sadly mistaken (We definitely saw a more negative tone coming from Stephenie this episode where she was just coming off fairly positive prior episodes) Gary confessional”Lydia’s upset because Stephenie’s eaten a stinking ton. I know she’s strong and she needs to be look at all these challenges because she can win” (Good confessional for Stephenie as again, we have been waiting for her to be viewed as a threat and this is the second time (Bobby was first) to inject this into the audience’s mind) The scene back at camp involving Stephenie’s tirade about her being targeted is simply another vehicle to showcase Stephenie’s power and the animosity building Judd (to Lydia) “Everything in this game is personal; I see and I hear people lying through their teeth who I least expect to lie" Lydia confessional “Everybody is putting Stephenie up in a pedestal knowing that Stephenie is the biggest threat but no one is doing anything about it” (Very strong indicator of Stephenie’s long term status which at this point, is already long term. There was an OVERPOWERING aura of Stephenie being "shown" as the main power of her alliance but also right from Stephenie as well. What is interesting at this point is to see how the GENERAL audience feels about her as she went down in tone immensely HOWEVER it was all responsive to Lydia who was supported by other players to appear a bit petulant about not eating. Stephenie's shifting next episode will be give a clearer indicator) The Reward A very nice and telling journey with Rafe and Cindy. What is most interesting is how phrases were worded as they did not specify numerical positions which bodes well. Interesting to note that despite it being Cindy’s reward, it “felt” more of Rafe’s narration. Rafe “To the first of many feasts and exotic locations together”
Cindy”Lydia is probably irritated, Gary’s bad because I took him out and Stephenie and Judd are probably sitting up on the ruins laughing at it all” (No mention of Danni)
Rafe “Lydia is so easily swayed” (Again this seems to be more than just that morning situation that occurred) Rafe confessional “It was kind of like a flood of strategy out of both of us. After that, it was like Cindy and I are kind of in this together for better or for worse” (In actuality this is a positive statement, moreso than all the other statements reflecting “final two” “final four” and so forth. We hear no mention of “numbers” because as we know, solid number talk never works out that way) Rafe “That reward was like, I can make it for the rest of this game; we can do this (Interesting use of pronouns and positive in that “numbers” not used) The Ramifications Lydia confessional “.......I’m an outcast (said after Rafe/Cindy came back) that’s why I feel like........ (Note that the editing cut Lydia off here abruptly and again, I feel like this entire show had many items out of sequence) Cindy confessional “Lydia had some corn soup.......almost like we are supposed to feel sorry for you and let you win something but we are here to compete and were are talking final four and you got to step it up or you are not gonna be around” (I would have much preferred that Cindy did not, again, state final four as I feel like this is her destiny of “just” the fourth in final four) Stephenie “We need to stick together; us four” (to Judd, Rafe, Cindy)
Rafe “I think so too”
Stephenie “How she made it to day 29 is beyond me”
Cindy “Because she’s nice and smiles”
Stephenie “She’s completely out of our alliance” Followed by:
Rafe confessional “This next couple of days are crucial for Lydia because it could mean she goes really far in this game or is one of the next people to go” (Establishing Lydia’s arc ) The Morning After
Cindy confessional “Steph and myself and Judd and Rafe all have our coffee and we’re up on the ruins and we’re like how cool would it be if this is how we spent our last days” (Again, too much talk about this foursome that for it to come to fruition would be doubtful) Gary “Definitely a foursome that seems to feel they have the most power....” Danni “Stephenie is kind of running the show right now...”
Gary “Who do you think should be the next to go...?”
Danni “Judd or Cindy, I don’t know, Cindy’s strong”
Gary “Cindy is going to be tough” “The people I feel totally comfortable with or you and Rafe”
Danni “You just need to make sure you talk to Rafe” “It could be you, med, Rafe and Lydia......” Danni confessional “There’s 3 outsiders and that’s Gary and myself and Lydia but we need to bring in a 4th so we are going to try and talk to Rafe and see what plan of action we can take” Danni confessional “Hopefully, it will work out otherwise I got to look at who’s in control of the game........ camera shot immediately at Stephenie ....and play up to it; you just got to keep trying until you find something that works because I’m not gonna go home” Immediately thereafter, a beautiful camera move showing a downward shot of Danni appearing to be looking up whereupon Stephenie is sitting on the ruins indicating she is looking out at her “Queendom” The Immunity Challenge Rafe had a nice confessional which bodes very well for him “Who would think this little gay Mormon would win most of the immunity challenges; growing up...... do well in competitions like this” More on Alliances Judd “So far we have a great alliance”
Stephenie “We all trust each other; it’s too funny because it is 2 guys, 2 girls.....”
Rafe “Seems too good to be true” (Uh oh) Stephenie confessional “Such a great alliance and have such trust in one another that it almost seems too easy to get to final four together. It feels weird because last time I felt so powerless and this time I feel so powerful; it’s like a dream almost come true but it almost seems too good to be true” (Hardly a good sign and prophetic words in true Survivor fashion. Someone acknowledging their own power is never a good sign and again, that nasty final four mention) Lydia “As far as they are concerned my job is done..... (to Danni) and Rafe and Judd and Stephenie, (editing cut) is all together” (I reviewed this various times and it kept appearing that Cindy’s name got taken out of Lydia’s mouth though her mouth appeared to move to include a name after Judd) and “I’m not useful anymore” (Not quite yet Lydia, as mentioned Lydia has been a tool but she may be a tool a bit longer) Gary “Cindy obviously doesn’t like me so I don’t care what happens to her” (Again, very interesting as to this animosity between Cindy and Gary and interesting statement as to potential ramifications either in Gary’s favor or Cindy’s) The Conversation Gary “You and me and Stephenie were tight; you are tighter with her now, so your thoughts are.......”
Rafe “I want to go with people I trust; I trust Steph a lot but not like 100% but I trust her more than a lot of other people”
Gary “Because Danni is really strong....”
Rafe “I really like Danni.......”
Gary “I mean strong, trustworthy”
Rafe “I don’t really trust Judd; feel like he’s lied a lot” Again, interesting conversation in light of Rafe being a narrator. Setting up the seeds about Judd amidst all this talk about lying Gary confessional “At some point, they are going to turn on each other” (prophetic?) Judd confessional “Don’t trust anybody; never know who’s gonna turn on who........”
Tribal Council
Lydia confessional “Everybody looks up to Stephenie; she’s played the game before so in my eyes it seems like Stephenie is running the show” (Calling out the power player may be a death knell for that person but it is now a firmly planted idea for all) Gary “Some people who are starstruck by her (shot of Cindy) could all probably get her autograph after the show” Judd “I think I am going to start lying now; if I want to stick around, I better start lying and I’m a bad damn liar” Discussion then goes to Gary stating Cindy and Lydia shouldn’t be in the game with Cindy’s notable expression....... Gary “That’s not a lie; a lie is the idol is on the ground” (shot of Cindy) What was most interesting is how the camera showed Rafe appearing to be surprised at this information regarding the hidden idol. Rafe, as we know, already knew about it when Gary told Stephenie and Rafe but the intent was clear that Rafe is meant to look surprised and helps affirm his mistrust in Judd Judd “I told you I’m a bad liar” (again, another shot of Rafe) Gary’s leaving was then met with a satisfied smirking from Cindy and our knowledge that despite the episode both Danni and Lydia voted for Gary (obviously they knew they did not have Rafe going into Tribal Council; that was merely for audience benefit but unlike every other time, Danni wrote down the name of the power group’s intended target despite the fact that everyone knows she would be the next person (presumably?) to go Jeff “Well one thing is clear, no one is going down without a fight. (shot of Danni) Over the next nine days, there should be some big battles”
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miyagimayday 14 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
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11-25-05, 03:26 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
I love your analysis VS!!
Just another interesting fact: (I don't know if it's more of the editing or it's a fact) when Gary is "working" Rafe, Rafe does not answer Gary's questions directly. Especially when Gary told Rafe that Danni is very trustworthy. (I think one of the reason that Gary believes that is because of the Blake and Brain votes (?!), and the circumstances had not required Danni to lie). And Rafe just change the subject (?!). It's just interesting that Rafe does not answer Gary's question (or maybe he does not want to (?!)).===============================================================
Gary “You and me and Stephenie were tight; you are tighter with her now, so your thoughts are.......”
Rafe “I want to go with people I trust; I trust Steph a lot but not like 100% but I trust her more than a lot of other people”
Gary “Because Danni is really strong....”
Rafe “I really like Danni.......”
Gary “I mean strong, trustworthy”
Rafe “I don’t really trust Judd; feel like he’s lied a lot"
=============================================================== I also notice the pecking order is really interesting too. From previous Survivers, we know that it often reveal the real pecking order. However, Steph was the first one out. And yet, she is one of the strongest. Since Judd was not informed about the Jamie vote last week, many people believed that Judd would've taken it pretty hard. However, it's not the case. I thought it was smart for Steph to tell him that they just don't want to put him on the spot.
Steph: I know Steph is not being viewed as nice as last season, but I don't understand all the "hatre" going towards her. I mean, I guess I am bias because I like her from last season. Many people dislike her this season because of her whining and her Queen-like attitude, but I think that is just because of her strong personality. Two points I want to make: no matter how she is being portraited this season, I still remember the good part about her from last season. Even though it was heavily edited too, it does not change the fact that she did not give up and she did lived on that island by herself. I think that takes a lot of courage and determination. I don't really know if I can handle the situation well when I (and my team) kept losing. Especially we know that Steph probably never lost so bad in her life. I really admired her courage. If you put other people in that situation, I am not sure how many of them can keep themselves together. Also, we do know that Steph has a strong personality, so I am not suprised to see when she is in power, her character came out very strongly. The second point is about her whinings. I think most parts are editing; because during BJ's surviver live show, he says that he does not notice Steph whining all the time. (not sure how accurate this is since BJ only spend few days with her) Many peoeple whine too! especially living in that kind of envoriment. And we do say things we don't really mean in the heat of the moment (just lost to a challenge, during an arugment...etc). And i am not just saying this for Steph, Judd, BJ and others say many things they do not mean too. However, I do think that Steph should try to hide her strong personality sometimes because most people would rather pity the minority than give credits to the majority. Dispite the fact that I like Steph, I try to speak objectively when it comes down to strategy. I do think Steph is playing a great game so far, though I think she should start to stay low for a while.
Rafe: Rafe is the second person I like from this season. I think many people know why, so I won't bother to type these reasons all out again. I just want to mention that he and Steph does make great strategic partners, not just mentally, but physically as well! However, one thing I don't understand is how people can easily forgive Rafe for lying or deceiving when they think it is so immoral for Judd / Steph / perhaps Jamie to do so? Maybe it's because that Rafe is the "nice" guy (?!) I will leave this question now, and return when I get to Danni. Cindy: Cindy is awsome. I like her from the beginning when she talks about the monkey and the nature. And she shows a lot of angles. Especially the episodes from the past few weeks. She is competitive, and she also has a strong personality too (it's just that it is not shown as much as Steph). The fact that she loves coffee just make me like her more (HA!). Danni: I think people give too much credit to Danni. Don't get me wrong, I like Danni! She is strong. She is funny. And she is very competitive. But she did lied (the Blake vote). It is not really being edited to see her lie, or many people might think that since Blake is annoying, it is okay to lie to him?
I don't know...morality does not work for me like that. If you think lying is bad, then it should be always bad regardless the contents and who you are lying to. I don't think that lying is always bad (there is something called "white-lie", and I think the content is very important). However, I think that you should not lie because that person is horrible. For example, is it okay to lie to a angry homeless and not okay to lie to a well-manner business man? I don't think it's justified to lie in both case. Therefore, if Danni or Rafe lie too, shouldn't they be considered as bad as Steph, Judd ...etc? I am not saying because they lie, they are bad, I am just saying people should treat everyone the same and judge them more objectively on facts than editing. Dispite all the editing, Danni did made the agreement with Gary behind Blake's back (told by Amy) and Blake was blind-sided just like Jamie was. We did not see her lie (from the editing), and the circumstances limit her need to lie as well. I am just kind sad that Danni is not shown as much as some others. I really hope that she can show more of her character. We know that from the preview that she will fight to stay, and I am really looking forward to see it. Judd: Many people think Judd is a jerk. well, I think he is just a very average man. He will be nice to the people he likes (Steph), and mean to the people he dislikes (Margaret). I think the good thing about Judd is that you don't have to get into a mind game with him, because he shows himself. He does not think much (proved in many of the mind challenges), and if you like friends who are not always "calculating" behind you, then Judd will make a good friend. Lydia: We know from the beginning that she is a hard-working person. However, this has not being shown after the swap of the two teams. There is not much to say about Lydia as she is not shown much. I really like VS's analyze of her from this episode.
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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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11-25-05, 05:14 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
I agree with most of your post and I think Danni is not in a position where she needs to lie. However, Danni did not enjoy deceiving Blake and Rafe did not enjoy deceiving Jamie. I do not think Steph is being portrayed as a liar so much as we are seeing a very selfish side of her. She, after all, did not need to beg for more food when she had a burger and her friend Rafe, for one, had half a sandwich!
What we should take into consideration is how the players perceive the lies and other poor behavior, as some of them will/have become the jury! How hurt was Jamie when he was blindsided? Who does Jamie hold responsible? How selfish does Gary think Steph is? Does Gary think Steph is less deserving? How hurt is Lydia and who would she hold responsible? etc.
I think everything does become personal!
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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11-25-05, 07:19 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
Another fantastic analysis VS, (and great replies). Alas, no time to list all the things I agree with; it's pretty much the entire list! I especially appreciate the attention you pay to lines edited out of sequence. So will add a couple thoughts on questions raised: Re Rafe deceiving Jamie: Rafe's voting comments on Insider explain this as a "permissable" lie. Apparently, Jamie told Rafe that when it came his time he wanted to be blindsided and not to sit around the camp knowing he had lost. Rafe seems to have promised that to Jamie. Rafe's final words say that he's honoring Jamie's request about the blindsiding but not the part where Jamie told him to go ahead and make a mean comment when he votes--because he had nothing mean to say. This Insider clip puts Jamie's "Blindsided!" comment into context, makes it a sort of genuine compliment rather than an accusation. Insider clips and editing:
Voting comments that are shown on Insider have an odd status, and I would be interested to hear what VS and all of you think of them and Insider clips in general. Most voting comments cannot be put into the show or there won't be any suspense about the tally. Yet they can reveal important information. Obviously, CBS has created Insider for the dedicated Survivor fan. The Final words and voting comments are always given. Then there are the extra clips that didn't make it on to the show but are still edited and titled. They're kind of like bonus scenes on DVD's. Do those count as part of the global editing? Pecking order challenge
I thought this one differed from most in the past, although certainly a lot of the plays were along alliance lines. I feel that the conditions in Guatemala are so harsh that the reward experiences are more important than usual. We saw the novel idea expressed by Lydia that rewards should be spread around to everyone and not distributed per pecking order. Lydia works like a dog in camp and yet they dismiss her as reward-worthy because she cannot compete. As a contrast, in Survivor Borneo, when Sean got to go on the yacht he told Jeff he felt he should pick Rich because Rich was providing him with food on a daily basis. There was an acknowledgment of work ethic. We are shown that Steph has no appreciation of all the work being done in camp. BobbyJon (and others) did it for her in Palau and Tom, Ian, and Coby did it after she joined Koror. Steph sits up on the ruins and Lydia works, and I felt this was the crux of the resentment that came boiling out of Lydia. Had there been other conversations? I don't know but I don't think it was necessary. It may be a case of resentment building up that Lydia had been expressing by not buzzing around camp quite so cheerfully. We were shown that Lydia has reached her limit of working for these people. Although there is no overt racism being expressed, I feel like there is unconscious racism with the older Hispanic woman being treated as the natural housemaid and cook for the "beautiful people" who have stopped even saying thank you. Back to the pecking order challenge, what stood out to me was that the first four eliminated were the exact group that went on the prior reward, even though that reward was shared 50-50 along alliance lines. When they went back to camp and had that lovely blowout about who had been eating, the group consisted of the 4 who had just had a wonderful spa-type experience and Lydia, the one who was mad because now six of the group were eating and getting massaged and swimming, and she was deprived. Yet no one had any sympathy for her (Rafe and Cindy did, but they were gone.) The athletic/jock/sports-playing people are really shown as arrogant. They have defined "deserving" as the ability to compete in challenges. Survivor is not a purely sports or Olympic type competition and they seem to forget that this time. Lydia did not get a good edit either, I agree. While I enjoyed seeing her stand up to Stephanie, her little passive-aggressive scene with the "leftovers" soup was a blatant pity party, and that typically gets a poor response from the people it's directed at (unless someone as a well-developed guilt complex to be played on), and of course it looks bad to the viewer because it's shown as passive-aggressive on Lydia's part due to having the snarky "we're not buying into it" commentary edited in. I suppose this poor edit has at least two functions:
1) Nip in the bud any "rooting for Lydia to win" fan factions.
2) Time to set up a new misdirection boot. This was made clear when Judd said "Lydia's outta here." A good irony because most likely it's Judd that's out next. Cindy's story and her animosity to Gary
Although this was somewhat underexplained, I think we have been given enough info to get it. 1) Gary and Cindy have NEVER been on the same tribe, nor have they shared a reward. 2) Cindy's story is that she never liked her original tribe and wholeheartedly embraced New Nakum (as Rafe explains to Jamie on Insider), but 3) She feels underappreciated (see merge IC scene where only Judd is encouraged as sacrificing for the alliance). 4) She has been painted as vulnerable. She is not an original Yaxha, whereas Gary is, and she had to be concerned that he would renew his old ties with Steph/Rafe/Lydia. We have been shown that he absolutely tried to get back in with them, which would have thrust Cindy out onto the margins. 5) Cindy's "team player" mentality was played up in the Danni pool party scene where she did not want the tribes to mix. That's enough reason shown for Cindy to be hostile to Gary. In addition, she may not like him, but I think that loyalty and alliance position are her primary issues. New Cindy story
The Cindy/Rafe bond was hidden from us until we got the Jamie quote in Insider last week "Rafe has Cindy." The bond being hidden allowed us to believe that Lydia was tighter with the Old Yaxha than she is. It allowed us to hope for an underdogs revolt that would include Cindy. In reality, there hasn't been a snowball's chance that Cindy was flipping, because she is not "loose" without a firm alliance; she has Rafe, and Rafe and Steph are the power core. Lydia had Jamie, and Jamie and Judd sort of had equal claim on Judd. The underdog revolt would have been Jamie, Lydia, Judd, Gary, and Danni, had Jamie been warned (his backup plan revealed in Insider), but we were to think Cindy was potentially part of it and perhaps even that Rafe would turn on Steph (except we pretty much also thought Rafe and Steph had a F2 pact from Day 1). In a lot of ways this last sequence has reminded me of the pagonging of Lopevi, even though Gary got a reprieve with a Barramundi type "Jerri" boot. During that season, we were waiting for Eliza, Julie, and Twila to hook up with the men and overthrow Amy's girls--and it just didn't happen until Rory, Sarge, and Chad had hit the road. With this episode, Brandon and Bobby Jon gone and Gary on his way out, Danni is set to become the Chris of Guatemala. That whole underdogs' alliance story is pretty much done, and the time has come for the Rafe/Cindy bond to be revealed. This bond is the new threat to Steph. But Steph and Rafe are not going the route of Amy and Leanne. Steph is not cocky; we are shown that she is suspicious of how well things are going and will remain cautious and responsive to danger signs. Lydia has suddenly become the new Eliza. Although she wasn't the target in the pecking order challenge, it still resulted in her bringing it out in the open that she's tired of being scorned and called undeserving. Steph is becoming the new Twila in the sense that her tough girl side has emerged and it appears that the Steph/Lydia animosity will continue, perhaps to F4 as with Twila and Eliza. Back to Cindy, I think we are starting to root for her and Rafe to overthrow Steph and Judd as a good guys alliance, but good guys alliances rarely come through. This should carry us through until it's time for Danni to emerge. I feel like this whole post-merge game editing is more about giving us hope that Steph, Judd, and Jamie don't win than setting up the person who will actually win. It's one of those anti-Survivor seasons where the votes may be cast primarily AGAINST rather than FOR: not only the minority alliance jurors but Steph's former allies who could have assured her win if she had won them over, will vote to shut Steph down and let her know she didn't pull it off. In the audience, a lot of people will be rooting for Steph NOT to win and anyone who has not been a horrible person and player will be the favorite, even if we don't know her as well as we would like. I just hope they learned their lesson with Vee and will not make the winner that hidden ever again. Sorry about the rambly post, I was picking away at it on a rather busy day ... lots of interruptions ... just going to post it anyway.  
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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11-26-05, 03:25 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
I just love reading what you all have to say. OFG, I think you are right on in your analysis of the Lydia edit and the animosity between Gary and Cindy to which I would add a point #6: Despite what she said to Jamie, Gary’s TC vote irritated her.Veruca, you were right when you wrote “the editing made the scenes and dialogue somewhat curious and out of sequence”. In fact, this episode could’ve been titled “CHANGES” since even the players were out of character. Judd first stood out. After playing this game as if he was “King (Kong) of the jungle”, he didn’t erupt on the return from TC but retreated meekly; “I just wish I had been told”. Judd as the “forgiving man” is strange casting. Even at this TC, when Gary responded to his attack, he again retreated with his “I’m a bad liar” admission. As much as “Judd the Liar” might bring him down, I think his change from “Judd the King” to “Judd the Player” will be part of his demise. He could have made F2 as the perfect foil but showing how hard he is playing will raise flags. Gary, a clinical player, showed his first signs of emotions. His distrust of Cindy meant that he had to go to Rafe for the 4th he needed. His eruption at Judd at TC showed that he had lost control of his destiny in the game. As Jeff said during reward, “Gary has two people to pay back”. Many desperate passes get intercepted when the QB doesn’t see that there is double coverage! Lydia, the “under the radar player” turned into the “trouble maker”. Veruca analysed her strategy as horrific. Enough said. Cindy, another clinical player, hadn’t shown much emotions in her gameplay. This time however, she got upset at Lydia’s attempt to gain pity. She showed her animosity towards Gary and turned a straightforward decision at reward into “the toughest decision ever”. Rafe was her best choice, why not simply say that since he finished second, he deserves it most. Cindy, the invisible player, was suddenly given the pivotal role as expressed by Rafe:
“Just as long as Cindy stays with us”
and Gary and Lydia:
“We need a fourth” , “I’m not sure about Cindy”. After the bag of coffee, for the second week in a row Cindy got the consolation prize. If last time, reward was important to win because it was a team reward and it builds friendship, this week’s individual reward can only build animosity and isn’t one to go for.
Is there such a thing as “THE CAR WINNER EDIT”? If so, Cindy is it!! Rafe by his own admission turned from the gay mormon who isn’t athletic into the “challenge hog”. He also almost acted like he was on a honeymoon with Cindy, acting all “touchy feely” and “for better or worse” as he said. Nothing negative but still, who was that guy? A great strategist might become too worried about his own vulnerability and miss the winning move. Stephenie had played this game has a quiet leader, acting like a big sister to Judd and Rafe. After encouraging everyone at challenges, now she turned into the “Mean Queen”. The image of her sitting on her throne (the stairs of the ruins) and calling out to her servant, Lydia, to bring her water, was very powerful. Stephenie may get to F2 but who will vote for her? And that brings me to Danni. The only one who didn’t change during this episode. She stayed the focus, clinical player that she has been almost throughout the game. (the Blake boot maybe was emotional!). Her quote, regarding Gary’s play at aligning Lydia and Rafe: “Hopefully it will work, otherwise I got to look at who’s in control of the game and play up to it” showed that she does have a clear strategy and can think ahead. She has had a very consistent edit, and like I posted earlier, that is often the key to the winner’s edit.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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11-26-05, 04:24 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
LAST EDITED ON 11-26-05 AT 04:25 PM (EST)A most enjoyable analysis, michel! I really like this "Changes" motif that you pointed out. Very Jekyll and Hyde, with one Hyde becomning Jekyll (Judd). Yes, absolutely, I agree with your reason #6 for Cindy to dislike Gary. He threw a vote at her and a vote is not a good thing to get simply because it makes the UTR player visible. Thus we saw Cindy shushing Jamie and telling him to forget it and it was no big deal--not because she didn't care but because the more it was discussed, the more visible she became (my theory).
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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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11-27-05, 03:32 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
Excellent job by all Almost everybody had a bit of twist to their editing. Everybody, except for one More on that later Lydia had been invisible since very early in the game and now she has a huge spike in face time and it was none to positive. This is not good for her. This upturn in her editing is setting up her eventual boot, if not this episode(pure EPMB misdirection), then the next. She's the hard worker, and a sudden boot would be looked at with a lot of ????.
We need to be given a reason for her boot, afterall she is the camps hardest worker. Cindy, had a bit of spike in face time as well but it was not nearly as stark as Lydia's. We are beginning to see her story fleshed out. I don't know, but it just get a negative vibe from her editing. She seems a bit harsh and uncaring, which was shown by her comments about Lydia. We've seen this from her before during the pool get together. She is rock solid for her alliance. She had not waivered a bit. Her comments about the final 4 bode well for her, but like VS whenever I hear someone mention a specific place they want to finish, I tend to believe that is exactly where that person will finish. Judd, is not a very good liar as he states, yet this show is all about who can lie the best. Judd's edit actually was softened a bit, after being seen as a bit of jerk this shift does not bode well for him. He made specific mention who would be the ideal final four..uh oh. Not good for him, as we know, this will not come to fruition. I also noticed that those he was speaking to made no comments. I'm really starting to get an Ian vibe from Rafe. He's playing the game, like Ian, yet you never hear anyone mention his name as a threat. He is always mentioned as go between to talk to Steph. That fact that he is almost the sole narrator left in the game is not good for him as well. I also go back to Jamie's comment to him during TC when he said for him to make a decision. This is going to be his downfall, because a tough decision will be coming for him soon. Steph's edit continues it's downward turn. EPMB really doesn't want us to cheer for her and he is beating us over the head with her negatives. Her blow up with Lydia about the food was not necessary on her part. It was very odd, as if she wasn't trying to prove her point just to Lydia, but to the rest of the tribe. She is really being set up as an ideal F2. Dani . Same old same old with her. There are lots of shots of her. We are also seeing confessions that show she has a strategy. There was no real change in her edit. She is definately an underdog and in the boot order she should be next, yet we didn't hear her name mentioned as the next one to go. This should be her week, yet I think we can all pretty much agree that she isn't going this week. The next two boots, IMO, are Judd and Lydia in no particular order. That would leave an F4 of Rafe, Steph, Cindy and Dani.
 DRONES
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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
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11-29-05, 09:02 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
miyagimayday very nice to see you in these parts and I hope you will post more often. Steph: I know Steph is not being viewed as nice as last season, but I don't understand all the "hatre" going towards her I had mentioned this as well miyagimayday and this is the beauty of editing. I do not dislike Stephenie from what I have seen but the presentation of Stephenie (as opposed to Stephenie’s presentation) is clearly designed to make her less appealing than last season. Stephenie has not changed; her EDIT has changed and quite simply because of where and how she ends up. Last season she was the lone person standing from her tribe and her tribe (with few exceptions) were shown to essentially be quitters which made her “heart and determination” even more palpable. This has NOT changed about Stephenie; you cannot change someone’s character but you can portray it in a different light. This is manipulating the audience and for the most part, it works rather well especially on a show where the people are “real” We may watch a fictional show and say to ourselves “Wow, that seemed so real.” Now take a show where the premise IS real and what is the audience generally supposed to think; it is real of course Brian was a perfect example of how a character changes and literally overnight. Brian was shown to be a hard worker and a natural but not overbearing leader of his tribe. He counseled people and people gravitated towards him. We saw him care about a sick Tanya and attempt to resolve the Ted and Ghandia conflict and literally overnight we saw a different Brian emerge; one who made seemingly sexist comments and appear quite arrogant. Needless to say, all of this was Brian but the editing showed what it wanted to at the APPROPRIATE moments. Surviette, you bring up a good point about the nature of lying and how it is perceived. Cindy stated, quite logically that by the end of the game “everyone would be a liar” In this game, how can you not? But the perception of the lie is important. Both Danni and Rafe are likeable people and their lies were softened to “omitting the truth” (see how nicely the word lie can be softened ) Judd and Stephenie may lie but because their characters have been also portrayed as “unlikeable” it is greeted with negativity. The point was even driven home by Gary as to what is a lie and what isn’t. Can we say this is hypocritical? Of course! However, it is amazing how viewers are more accepting of “bad behavior” when it is wrapped in a package that is essentially positive. As OFG stated, one may view this as “permissible” and it appears (generally speaking) that it works. OFG, Insider comments are extremely valuable (unfortunately most times I forget to read them) in that as we have discussed, what is left OUT can be as relevant as what is kept IN and I think they are an important part of editing. I certainly welcome anyone to mention those comments and to perhaps why they were left in or out. I know that Gary was supposed to have told both Stephenie and Rafe about Judd’s “idol lie” yet interestingly enough at the Tribal Council, camera segments at Rafe made it appear that he was somewhat surprised at Gary’s revelation (we already knew Stephenie knew about the idol) Why would the editing want to make it appear that Rafe was hearing about this lie for the first time. Well, it certainly blended nicely with Rafe telling Gary he didn’t fully trust Judd and confirmation therefore was given at Tribal Council. Rafe’s “trust” issues have been solidified which may lead to an important aspect. The Cindy and Gary animosity could very well be that Cindy and Gary have no relationship and Gary voted for her. There just appeared to be more of an undercurrent that I could not put my finger on that seemed to go beyond just two people who were never together and a casting of a vote. If that is simply the case, then that does trouble me with regard to Cindy and her dealings with how this game is played. michel, very astute with “changes” motif and with the out of order sequencing and strange reactions something most definitely wanted to be conveyed. Rafe IS quite the challenge hog isn’t he? The irony and interesting aspect of this is where is the discussion about Rafe’s challenge prowess? This is something we may need to keep an eye on. DRONES you are absolutely correct that we need to see a reason for someone’s boot and Lydia’s arc has definitely been turning. Again, Lydia’s reasons for the pecking order challenge and Stephenie’s response seemed to favor Lydia BUT Rafe and Cindy, both essentially positive characters were made (or so it seemed) to validate Stephenie’s more by showing Lydia sitting eating her fish soup almost appearing to want to be viewed as a martyr and Cindy’s confessional about Lydia’s reaction. Lydia was not meant to be viewed entirely negative but there was a negative tone in the aftermath (by no means am I discounting that Stephenie’s “rant” was viewed as positive since there was a point driven home visually with her eating her corn while insisting she doesn’t eat that much
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MDSkinner 716 desperate attention whore postings
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11-29-05, 11:48 AM (EST)
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8. "Danni's edit" |
First off, wonderful post. Loved reading it.Two comments that came to mind after reading this post. First, in the reward challenges like this, why is it that people never think to try to answer the questions incorrectly? It seems like someone like Lydia would do well to never have to hit anyones container, and never look like a bad guy to the power people. Secondly (and probably more important) Danni seems to be getting a very similar edit to Chris from Vanuatu. She has been thought of as the weakest of the minority alliance, an outsider who seems to be fairly well liked by the majority alliance, but for the most part one who "should" get the boot any time now. Based on spoilers that is not going to happen, and she may even make the final two (just like Chris) and maybe even win the whole thing (again like Chris). She has done virtually no scheming, which is clearly very different from Chris, but other than that, she seems to be getting a very similar edit to him.
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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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11-29-05, 03:23 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Danni's edit" |
She has done virtually no scheming, which is clearly very different from Chris, but other than that, she seems to be getting a very similar edit to him.I think she has done a lot of scheming, but why hasn't it been shown, is the question. She is in the same situation as Chris was in...why the difference in editing, if in fact she is the winner as I think the editing has shown? It could be that EPMB wants to keep her hidden for more effect, esp. if Steph is Danni's F2 partner. This goes back to VS' question of a winner's edit, etc. Maybe EPMB has a "set" edit for say F4 Darrah = Jenn, F3 Ian=Rafe F2 foil Clay = Katie but for his winner, he tends to prepare a special edit just for each. Now why Chris was edited a major schemer and Danni has not been (if she indeed is the winner), I'm not sure, VS can better answer that, imo.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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11-29-05, 03:51 PM (EST)
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10. "Comments" |
LAST EDITED ON 11-29-05 AT 03:57 PM (EST)I agree VS that it is strange nobody is commenting on Rafe's immunity run. I think it means that his winning streak is about to end and he won't be winning when he needs it. As far as the editing at TC and Rafe's reaction, could it be that Rafe was surprised not at the revelation by Gary but rather by him confronting Judd with the lie? If Gary had come to me saying Judd lied about the idol, I could have dismissed it as something Gary was trying to provoke. Seeing the confrontation proved that Judd was lying, thus the reaction. Stephenie did answer both her question incorrectly. How come it makes us think she is too dumb to get them right instead of her not wanting to show where HER loyalties lie? As far as Danni's edit is concerned, I agree she is in the same situation Chris was in, but the edit has given us a measure of their different gameplan. Chris was laying low at this point but was having fun outsmarting everybody. He never missed an occasion to tell us. Danni is more about being friendly with everyone. She may be the best social player and is having fun with everyone but her game is calculating and unemotional. Nothing exciting to show... yet!
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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
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11-29-05, 05:09 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Comments" |
<If Gary had come to me saying Judd lied about the idol, I could have dismissed it as something Gary was trying to provoke.>Michel, I agree that is what happened. In the insider clip, Gary tells Steph and Rafe that he saw Judd climbing in the trees, but Gary doesn't tell them that he found the idol up in a tree. Also, Jamie had recently told them Gary was voting FOR him, so imo, Rafe was taking everything with a grain of salt. At TC, when Judd's lie was confirmed, I think Rafe was definately surprised. As VS points out, I think, the editors have been able to make this more dramatic, as it leads to other events. VS, on Survivor Live, Gary explains that he cast a vote against Cindy bc she could have prevented the Brandon boot, but she wouldn't. He said that after that, Cindy wasn't nice to him, but he didn't have anything against her. I'm not sure what that says about her character, but I can imagine it is very shocking to see your own name in print at TC! Re: The Danni Edit. I am beginning to wonder whether the events as they relate to Steph are simply more exciting and dramatic than the events surrounding Danni. I doubt MB expected Steph to make F2 and since she probably does, why not convince the viewers that Steph wins the whole thing and then in true Survivor fashion, surprise them with the fact that she doesn't? I would think, after Palau, MB would want to make this season less predictable (to everyone except VS, that is )!
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-29-05, 05:30 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Comments" |
Just a note on throwing the challenge: I have no doubt Rafe threw it. Wezzie pointed out (at Sucks, I think) that one of the questions he got wrong was something that anyone would know with the most basic knowledge of Mayan history. And then he got the crocodiles wrong. This is a guy who got near perfect SAT's and just finished a semester at Brown on Mayan culture. He just waited to throw it until it was down to F2, same as when Cesternino threw a similar challenge to Matt. Rafe seems to be playing up his ADHD-type scatterbrain personality to convince people that even though he's really smart and knowledgable he gets flustered and chokes right when he almost has it--like when he essentially had the "ancient ruins" puzzle put together and Judd still had to tell him twice what the answer was. Right. I also think he didn't so much want to win the most recent IC. He was putting his puzzles together kind of slowly even though he was getting all the answers right. At that pace he was keeping himself in it but not in the lead. Then he heard from Jeff's callting that Gary was about to win, which would screw up all their plans, and he was the only one who could beat Gary. He immediately stepped it up, threw the last puzzle together with no hesitation, and won the challenge, but I think he left the door open for someone else in his alliance to win as the only thing that mattered there was for Gary not to win.
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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
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11-29-05, 05:39 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Comments" |
I have to agree, even a midwesterner like me who knows from turtles and frogs should have been able to figure out the croc question. Rafe let Cindy win.
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dreamerbeliever 3380 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-05, 01:16 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Danni's edit" |
Well I'm not much of a spoiler, but I do enjoy reading the thoughts in this thread. Look forward to reading your posts every week VS! Usually it’s this thread that brings me out of lurking in the spoiler section. About Danni, I do see her edit being that of a winner. A couple of weeks back in my Love List thread I stated that if Danni won Guatemala, it would be the second best comeback in Survivor history next to Chris. As far as the editing, I really don't see many comparisons between Danni & Chris. Chris to me was more in Richard Hatch mold, and Danni is more in the Tina mold. Chris was an egomaniac and gloated in confessional when things went his way. Tina rarely (only Jerri) took pot shots at contestants in confessional and usually heaped praise upon on a bootee before sending to loser lodge. I would have to re-watch the entire season but I don’t think Danni has ever had a negative word to say about anyone in confessional. Even for Blake, who was on almost everyone’s nerves, Danni had a confessional talking him up before the boot. When a genuinely nice person like Danni or Tina is going to be the winner, then MB has to find ways to incorporate them into every episode. Think of all the times when a meaningless challenge reaction shot or a non-gameplay confessional was shown to us of Danni. Quite a few. This has to be done because they don’t dish the dirt or take the game personally and seek revenge. Neither were drama creators but were drama narrators. One thing Danni & Chris would share in common besides the underdog comeback would be their excellent social skills in camp. “The power” wanted each to be the last Pagonged member of the minority. If a heavy dose of Danni strategizing this week is shown to us, then book it because she is the winner.
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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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11-29-05, 07:14 PM (EST)
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14. "Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
Everyone else's thoughts are great! OFG, would you mind giving us a quick overview of your very famous theory (well, really just for my sake) because I can't find it anywhere...One thing that has really struck a chord with me is that the only CONSISTENT edits out there belong to Stephenie and Danni. One may say that Danni is not getting enough, but she certainly isn't getting a fluxuating pattern... Anyway, to the music... THis ep. we opened with VERY threatening music - it actually sounded alot like the underscore for the modern Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie. It gave the overall feel of the episode - it set up that one person was going to flip out (Steph or Lydia, depending on how you view it). It's interesting to note that when i watched this episode the people around me were completely split - half thought Lydia was bad half thought Steph was the evil one. I think this ep. was completely split down the middle in terms of editing, and helped people to hate either Lydia or Steph. It's interesting that Lydia is still getting the marimba throughout her highlighted points, however they are using it very differently NOW from in the beginning. THe Marimba combined with the percussive, almost snake-like underscoring makes Lydia look like more of a player. In fact, once it got to the morning time and Gary was talking to Lydia (where she stuck her eyes out hugely) the marimba was playing one single repeated note - much like the violing screeching in "Psycho". It helped us to see Lydia as slightly paranoid, but by no means unjustified - as we see Judd spying on her at the same time. The underscores are beginning to blend into the background alot, particularly during the whole reassertion of power where we saw the new fantastic four emerge. I think it's just giving our ears time to hear an important event. Back at camp, after the RC, the music became very cinematic and european all of a sudden. However the music changed completely when steph started justifying herself about the food challenges she has/hasn't been on. This is just another reason to believe that steph makes it very far. I think we'll see her justifying her again (i.e. infront of the jury) and I wouldn't be surprised to hear the same music underscore it. There was also a marimba involved in Lydia's confessional about how she deserved to go, it was playing a very high and dissonant motif, that made Lydia look slightly crazy. THis episode really was the turning point in Lydia's game - rafe's comments were very important for her - from here she either goes VERY far or not very far at all. With Cindy and Rafe's reward music I was disappointed to see that they didn't get the 'inspirational' music that Danni and Gary got everytime they were rewarded. The 'inspirational' theme helps to establish that the person is in awe/harmony/peace with their surroundings. This is a VERY important facet for a winner (I think) and thus far Danni is the clear leader in terms of being shown this. Whilst it was obvious that Cindy and Rafe were in awe, I'm suspicious as to why they didn't use the same musical theme as they had before, because the scene didn't play the same as if they had. The music did change, however, for Cindy and Rafe's strategy discussion - which is very good for them. They ARE making decisions and some of them will probably come to fruition. I might say that when we saw steph order Lydia about we got hardly any colouration from the music. The music almost sounded frank - I think those of us saw what we wanted in that. Although, I have to say it was completely unnecessary to include other than to get people to dislike steph. It was a pretty big clue as to where the editing is going... Interesting that Danni's only confessional of the episode had the marimba used for the underscore...Really, however, Danni's confessional was the least coloured of the entire show - i think. WE are meant to listen whenever this girl speaks, just because she hasn't said alot doesn't mean we can't guage what she's thinking. Now, a couple of episodes ago I decided that there would be someone who was going to power through the last half of the game. Well, with gary gone this week the choices are getting slimmer. We now have:
- Rafe
- Cindy
- Danni - most likely.
I say that Danni is the most likely BECAUSE she is now the underdog, BECAUSE she's shown interacting with her environment in a way the others haven't. Now for the individual players: Judd - he's off my "I hate him radar" but on my boot radar. Especially after all the talk about how solid the supposed f4 is. Steph - she's getting everything a long-term player should get. No worries about her going anywhere. Cindy - I have to say I'm getting more confused by her every week. She has the potential to be the winner, but I'm just not sure. She certainly has developed into an important character, though. Rafe - He'll be there in the f3 now no matter what happens. Anyone would be stupid to face him in f2, though. Lydia - Her story has been very patchy, and I don't think this is very good. However, the obvious player in her that showed in this ep. does bode well for her. At this stage if she won, I wouldn't be hugely surprised. Danni - definately one of the most consistent edits out there. Regardless of whether you think she's underdone she has never wavered in the way we've seen her. Anyway, great discussion guys - I can't wait for ep. 12! 
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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
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11-30-05, 08:31 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
There is a lot of great discussion going on and I can see everyone's excitement as we have only six players now Regarding the discussion about "winnner edit"; unfortunately I started a new thread when I posed that question and only Loquatrix and michel were able to fully respond to that particular question. I feel it is an important question and a question or discussion I try to bring to every season we've done because inevitably this gets thrown into the fray of observations (as well it should) much like the theory/discussion of "winner quote" and so forth. Ultimately, I have never subscribed to a winner edit or winner quote (again, Survivor 1 let's put to the side as that was the first season.) I have felt there are quotes or ideas put forth that assist with how the story of the win plays out. Since I am such a true "sucker" for the editing and the themes, I tend to view this show in the respect that the winner justifies the means of the story FIRST, however, that is simply my own viewpoint and the wonderful aspect about this show is that it is viewed in many different ways and accordingly, elicits different responses based upon different methods. aj you had mentioned very early on that certain instruments (the marimba, glockenspiel, xylophone and congas to be exact) were used whenever the show wanted us to feel "positive" (in some aspect) towards a contestant. This was mentioned by you fairly early on. I see a level of consistency with this since the season began with your posts about this. As we are trimming the fat with the contestants, I would love (in addition to your other observations) for you to make special note of this. Surviette, thank you for the information regarding the vote for Cindy. Early on, I was a bit concerned how Cindy would fare in the social aspect of this game. Whether my concerns come to fruition, we'll find out soon enough but in this game where a vote is par for the course, Cindy's reaction to this is still a bit of a concern. Again, I may be looking deeper than it merits but for Cindy to have such a self awareness that "everyone will be a liar by the end of the game" and "You can't win the game worrying about people's feelings" for Cindy to have a level of animosity about receiving a vote is somewhat perplexing. MD, I hope you continue to chime in here as we still have a lot of season left to observe. Regarding your comments, I do want to mention that I personally try not to compare the seasons as to the players. Some like to do this as yet another tool which can be a valid way of establishing patterns. I tend to generalize more regarding "patterns" such as identifying those who appear to be "characters" or those who are there seemingly more for the "journey" and so forth. This is in no way to be interpreted that these observations are not valid however, I truly cannot comment other than, like michel stated, the situation they both are in is similar. However, that is far as I can go with that. The setting, themes and players are so very different (just the returning players alone!) so I cannot begin to determine what allowed Chris to forge ahead would allow Danni the same path if she even gets there. The themes during Chris's season were so immensely different than this season. Therefore, emydi, you give me too much credit on being able to answer this because I can't . I try very hard to wipe the slate clean with each season. I have an immense fondness for quotes (as if I even needed to tell anyone ) and Jeff provided a very striking one (among others) in the first episode upon the first Tribal Council. He stated that the "dilemma you have is giving it your all without destroying yourselves in the process" He also mentioned the first challenge was a "marathon and not a sprint" which were very pointed comments in how they related to our initial impressions about enduring. I try to pinpoint what the story is trying to tell us through the quotes, the setting, the initial choices that are made and their ramifications along with those players that identify with this. If this situation remains consistent then (in my stubborn way which is probably MY downfall) I TRY to stay on that path. Inevitably, some choices of long term players of ours are going to be incorrect which is why all of our observations are so important. I will repeat something (again) that was discussed upon our initial observations and seem to tie in with some of the discussion regarding Danni and her edit since this has been a prominent discussion for some time and some have asked me if my initial observations have changed in light of her "low edit." I had mentioned in our first thread that sometimes if you can't quite put your finger on someone, that CAN be a good sign. Not always but "can". Obviously the winner of this show is revealed when the final votes are read; I merely try to flesh out the long term players early on so while my hard head can be a detriment at times, I do not like to change unless there is some dramatic shift in the edit somehow and I cannot claim this has been done with her.
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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
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12-02-05, 09:48 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-02-05 AT 10:15 AM (EST)It seems I am replying to myself so my apologies for two posts that may give one a headache I’m sure there has been much discussion considering the turn of events that occurred last night and I am looking forward to hearing everyone’s input The Recap Gary’s attempt to lure Lydia away from the alliance of five but Judd listens
Lydia telling us that she needs to make a better deal
The RC demonstrating the shift in loyalty
Cindy choosing Rafe to join her with Rafe expressing that she and Rafe are together for better or worse
Danni and Gary concoct a plan with Lydia on board with Danni strategically keeping her options open
Rafe winning IC
The issue about trust and Gary mentioning at some point turning on each other
Gary exposing Judd’s lie but Gary still considered too much of a threat Beginnings A volcano brews? Are we still in Guatemala? Danni naturally was exposed to an increase in face time and with good reason as the events dictated it. As I have always said, in fairness to this thread, despite who I see initially, Danni ultimately won immunity after being the next to go so events dictate she should be capitalized. Danni “Now 6 of us left, I’m next on the totem pole, about ready to have my head chopped off” and “It’s funny how everyone tries to play it off like nothing happened... heated TC about how there’s been a lot of lying...... I think it’s because they are all scared after things called out in the open.... .....these people are unbelievable” The Gymnastic Scene As a lot know, I put a lot of stock in the images as well as the dialogue and I found this scene very interesting symbolically. Judd, we see, is doing his cartwheel and thereafter the two women take their turns. Stephenie does her cartwheel and poses with a big smile with Judd’s compliments
Danni “Spunky”
Danni then performs a nicely done cartwheel as well
Danni’s confessional “Definitely was not going down without a fight, I’m going to work something out. I know Lydia feels like she is on the outs now so I know she’s definitely in with me and I think it will take one more person (immediate shot to Stephenie) maybe to throw something. This perfect little alliance is going to have to start breaking up.... (Shot of Stephenie and Judd doing their gymnastics) and ....It’s going to have to start attacking each other; they can’t all go to the final spot; it’s just not going to happen” The last shot we see is a beautifully formed round off performed by Danni Judd “That was beautiful, Danni”
Danni “Thank you, thank you, I’m seeing stars” A long post ago it seemed very visually apparent that Stephenie and Danni were featured in challenges almost in a “head to head” nature. This scene embodied this much like the later immunity challenge. I had felt at that time that these two appeared to seem that they would be going “head to head” at some point. Scenes like this may, in essence, be used simply for filler material, however, in light of how I have felt the story was to progress, I found it oddly symbolic The Challenge We see two people shown “sniffing the money” Stephenie and Judd
While the challenge itself did not reflect anything to the degree that the “pecking order” challenge is designed to do, we did observe some things Rafe and Danni opt to team up (very prophetic in light of the events)
Danni and Rafe nearly taking Cindy’s head off carrying their tray back (Again, insignificant footage but those small shots always catch my eye) Jeff “If you think you are in trouble, this is worth bidding on”
Danni, Judd, Rafe raise their hands
Danni and Stephenie both bid at the same time
Jeff “Danni at $80 first” Following: Stephenie, Danni, Stephenie, Danni, Stephenie, Danni (again, the event occurred but again, may be oddly prophetic) and Danni is victorious.
The Family
Stephenie requests a favor from Lydia (will Lydia now collect on that?)
Cindy gives Judd the rest of her money Cindy “I was already out, I didn’t have enough” Judd naturally wins the pleasure of his wife’s company and in turn:
Judd “I’m going to take my Jersey girl with me” and “Cindy, of course, she lent me the money” Rafe’s mother “Bye, hon, be tough”
Rafe, at that exact moment, shown breaking down (If not for the fact that Rafe is such a wonderful contestant, this tiny exchange may have elicited a laugh as to the irony of his mother saying to be tough and he is seen crying emotionally which I question if Rafe can remain "tough") Judd was the main narrator for the family visit at camp. It was also quite clear that, like in this game, Judd feels the need to showcase his abilities. I actually quite like Judd. His weaknesses in personality appear to come from that tough man stance to cover up a lot of insecurities. It is nice to see that he has a very loving relationship with a woman who understands him. Cindy’s sister “This is what we grew up doing; wilderness was our favorite thing to play; it’s like our greatest adventure yet (As something some of you have heard from me before, those who mention “adventure” and “journeys” have me concerned for their outcome) Stephenie “I owe Judd big time!” (Stephenie truly was fond of Judd; however, as we discussed quite some time ago, the decisions Stephenie has made did not appear to come solely from her and if one appeals to her manipulatively, she can be swayed) The monkey watches quite a lot through these scenes
Judd “This is coming down to wire here (to his wife); we got a tight alliance, me, Steph, Cindy and Rafe are in an alliance right now that’s as tight as can be. Steph, I hope takes me to final two.... if all goes well” (And that is the nail in the coffin, discussion of alliances being tight is never a good editing signal)
The Other Side
Again, there were many scenes and conversations throughout this episode that were clearly edited and chopped. The scene with Danni and Rafe had lapses but the important items were kept; mainly about trust and setting up the scenario of Judd. Rafe was the narrator of their homecoming discussing also that this was “like a fight for survival” (as a crocodile is shown) We do not know for certain how or who the conversation with Danni and Rafe was initiated. Needless to say, both of these contestants are extremely smart in how they handle conversations. They elicit responses and subtly expand on them Rafe “We should be careful with what’s happening (slight cut) I trust you a lot”
Danni “It’s really hard to trust anybody, that’s why Gary told me I could trust you; he said just stick with Rafe”
Rafe “That’s the same thing he told me; Judd is the only one I feel is ready to break”
Danni “Yeah, yeah, he’s definitely a threat” Danni (conf) “The only person that I really feel I can trust now is Rafe; I think he knows I’m important to have around for him because that alliance is going to want to vote somebody out and they have to see Rafe as a threat so he needs another buddy” (Interesting how Rafe as a threat is brought up by Danni; at this point in time, with no immunity challenge sealing Danni’s safety, it is still assumed that Danni then Lydia would be next to go; we obviously were not told the entire scenario but it is now pointed out that Rafe as a potential target is now a consideration) Danni “I’m sure Judd or Cindy are going to approach me because they are going to have to number wise” and “If he talks to me or Lydia and tries to vote against you, we’ll just let you know”
Rafe “Well he’s in control kind of, but also in a tenuous position because you and me are way closer than him and me and we just need to catch Judd in some kind of lie (Again, the last episode set this up perfectly for this week) so we can show Stephenie because right now she really trusts him” Rafe (conf) “I know Judd is threatened by me; I know he might want to get me out before he says he does so I have to make back up plans...... You can’t trust a person like Judd but you can trust you can’t trust him” (Again, unknown exactly how Rafe knows this or just sensed it since Rafe is very astute. Then again, Danni told us last week how she would appeal to those in control) The Doomed Exchange Judd (to the group) “Cindy, we should be alright still with our final four; the reason I’m saying this is because Danni does have that clue.....take that clue, fine you wanna win immunity, go ahead”
Cindy “She’s not usually a threat”
Judd “No, she’s not a threat at all”
Cindy “Mentally or physically she’s not a front runner; one thing she’s good at is shooting basketballs (Never good to underestimate anyone especially shown as a clear foreshadow for Danni’s game play at the later IC)
Judd “We have an edge on her” (So interesting to note is how Stephenie is not shown contributing to this conversation although she is there; in fact, their conversation was a blessing as Stephenie battles against perceived “threats”) Mindy “She must be good at something; she made it this far”
Judd “If she makes it, that’s okay, it’s not the end of our world; if she wins that’s fine...... ......get rid of Lydia.... .....so glad it worked out this way” (His wife then gives him a kiss. Again, never presume something will be okay in this game) The Reunion As howling monkeys watch over the scene, everyone rejoins each other. Rafe again, primary narrator. Judd (conf) “She (his wife) actually made me full” (slightly symbolic?) Again, perhaps nothing but I found it interesting that Stephenie’s boyfriend hugged Danni good bye and wished her “good luck” Cindy (conf about the family reward) “....just going to make it more of a memorable experience” (Again, I always get concerned when someone speaks of this game in terms of experiences, journey’s and so forth, obviously her visit dictated this line of confessional but I attempt to keep mental note of this) The Sting Let me again preface this entire scene by stating that this was set up beautifully and Lydia followed “her script” wonderfully. While many may see Lydia playing the game, I felt otherwise. She sounded very rehearsed with Judd and Danni’s “timing” was too perfect. Again, Lydia is a very useful tool but I highly doubt that she did nothing but follow the script that was given to her. Even her “thank you” to Danni who brought over the water seemed rehearsed Lydia “Almost there Judd; what do you think? Good shot at the million” and “Gotta get a game plan going here, Mr. Judd” and “How far do you want to get to the final two” (Rafe and Cindy occupied as shown)
Judd “As far as you do, got any plans?” (Danni just happens to approach them right at this particular moment in conversation) Lydia “We know who the key players are Judd”
Judd “I know who the threats are here; not stupid” (The above two lines of conversation were done in a voice over and interestingly enough, the camera did not show Stephenie, the camera showed Danni both times each of them are heard speaking as she casually was eating corn) Lydia “Come this close.... 7 freaking days, either get rid of the threats or we’re gonna be stuck to where we are sitting on the jury” (Another bit of foreshadowing perhaps?) Another brief exchange with Judd ending it:
Judd “I know who the mastermind behind that was (about Jamie)” (At that moment, the camera flashed to Stephenie; interestingly enough, however, Rafe was shown passing Stephenie by) (Also interesting is how, while Lydia was shown doing all the “leg work” we heard about the entire situation from Danni) Note for sequence sake, the remainder of Danni’s confessionals had her in the same spot, wearing the same outfit although they were mixed in throughout the episode as the events unfolded, however, the confessionals appear to have all occurred at one time which may have gone like this Danni (conf) “Judd was saying it was important to get rid of the strongest; Rafe talked to me and said if Judd says anything about voting me off, we can get Stephenie’s vote against Judd; Lydia and I are desperate......(More Lydia and Judd conversation) “Funny how the longer you stick around the more problems you can cause; more doors open, seems like I have a little bit of a crack” (Next confessional, same setting occurred after her IC win) “This was the biggest immunity I could win. There are a lot of things going on right now so something may work out even more so in my favor tonight” (Next confessional occurred after the scenes with Stephenie and Danni/Rafe and Stephenie/Rafe, Danni and Stephenie) “I told Stephenie... hopefully my plan will work to rat Judd out” It appears, for story context, that Danni’s confessional narration was inserted at key moments; if you view it in its entirety, Danni’s confessional occurred after ALL the events already occurred and she has already won immunity and summarizing everything done. The Immunity Challenge Many viewers find “mental” challenges mundane as opposed to the physical challenges. However, I enjoy the mental challenges the best. The editing incorporates more powerful images, commentary by Jeff and the music is compelling (of which I expect applejack to comment heavily on this particular episode ) Jeff (to Rafe) “You’ve had this awhile”
Jeff (about challenge) “It requires smarts” (shot of Judd )
Jeff “If you understand how to play this game it is a huge advantage (envelope) and if you don’t it might just extend your life a little longer (Double meaning perhaps?) Jeff’s Challenge Quotes
“Cindy continues to move forward”
“Stephenie is anxious to go”
“Everybody with a slightly different game plan”
“Cindy is gonna spin herself into a new spot”
“Cindy is surrounded by a sea of red; can’t move”
“Steph’s carved out a nice piece of real estate for herself” Danni “Can I switch” (and thus, let the REAL games begin)
Danni “I’m going to switch with Stephenie” (double meaning?)
Jeff “Stephenie doesn’t like it. Only time will tell if it’s the right move” (double meaning?) Jeff “Rafe and Danni closing in on the same tiles” and “Danni makes her move and in doing so ends the game for Rafe” (In light of my early thoughts which I stubbornly cling to and will need to re-evaluate if the ending is different, these statements as well as the next ones are very telling) Jeff “We’re down to two - Danni and Stephenie” and “Danni made Stephenie switch positions (of power?) with her; just play it out now” The music and visual shots helped to showcase the tension building; a chess match of two very strong but different women, I enjoyed this scene immensely. If the outcome of this show is not what the initial and subsequent intended to many of us, then perhaps I am transferring my approval on seeing a showdown of sorts between two women who I happen to enjoy watching Jeff “Stephenie has only move left to make”
Jeff (to Danni) “Well played”
Danni “I love this thing” (the necklace) (Hereafter was Danni’s confessional about winning the immunity) Playing to the Power I’ll preface the following with my admiration to those who are able to read people. Danni tells Stephenie just enough to appeal to Stephenie’s weakness and allows Stephenie to come to the conclusion that Danni is selling Stephenie “What did Judd say to you”
Danni “Mad about Jamie situation and said don’t think I don’t know who is in control.... said we are all squirrels trying to get a nut here; all trying to win the million and the key is to eliminate the strongest people” (Well played Danni)
Stephenie “Just him and Lydia talking?”
Danni “I just got in on it; he knows what he is doing”
Stephenie ”Right, like totally!” Rafe now enters the picture as what appears to be a “tag team” effect ensues. Stephenie (conf) “Judd already made it clear he is playing the game (thunder) and he’ll do anything to win; already caught in some lies and Danni really hasn’t lied at all” (Clouds move over)
Rafe “Ominous” (very symbolic) “What is going on here” (allows Stephenie to lead the conversation. Rafe, like Danni, has a very subtle way of directing the conversation)
Stephenie “....pulling a Jamie.... .....get rid of Judd first?” (Danni planted the seed as shown to us and Rafe is now tilling the soil)
Rafe “We have to think about it; big thing to do” (Notice how conveniently Danni has left allowing Rafe to pick up the second part of the conversation and now, all three are together. Lydia’s role is over; again, my impression of her as a useful tool stands) Stephenie “Said (Judd) a million times I’m here to win a million dollars and I’ll do whatever it takes where we’ve been trying to be honest with each other for the most part” (Interesting to note during this conversation, Stephenie talked over Rafe completely; Rafe attempted to interject once or twice, Danni mainly nodded but it was clear that at this point, Stephenie felt like she was in charge of the entire strategy) Stephenie “WE were saying (Rafe/Stephenie) if he goes tonight, want Lydia to go next (again, never a good sign to list order) and then we would go to the four with Cindy” (Danni just says yes) and “What do you think; what if Cindy... what if we vote for Judd and they all vote for...(hand gesture)
Rafe “I think Lydia will vote for us” (he KNOWS Lydia will)
Danni “She said she’d vote for Judd” (Danni firms this position)
Steph “Should we drop Cindy”
Rafe “What do you think?” (Both Rafe and Stephenie look at Danni) (While Danni was not shown answering, we did see her shake her head and then speak though we don’t know what she said. Ultimately, Cindy was NOT told which may allow us to conclude that Danni’s opinion was followed through) ....and we see the three of them touching fists. Stephenie “If someone is going to slit your throat just because you like their company? Hell know, they gotta go” At this time, Danni’s LAST confessional about “ratting out Judd” was stated. Following is the curious “scene” between Lydia and Judd where Lydia is shown stating that if anyone needs her vote, she is here. ”If not, goodbye” followed by Lydia’s scene with Rafe repeating the same thing Lydia “I’m not going to give up; not about to quit” Judd upon overhearing her, makes waves and tells Rafe and Stephenie Judd “I said to Lydia, could be me, could be you”
Stephenie “It could be more or Rafe” Tribal Council We hear Stephenie talk about the family reward and Danni who “cried twice, over spaghetti and immunity” Cindy “Have to consider the person you are voting out and how their alliance is going to affect your alliance and whoever is left. Also, the person going home is going to have some say if you end up in the final two and whether or not you win...”(the camera goes to Stephenie) Rafe (about trust) “You have to believe you have the right gut feeling because that is the only thing that’ll get you to the end of the game” Stephenie (about the voting) “You know you are making the right choice and be able, if you make it to the final two, to explain yourself” Jeff ”You can longer rely on what used to be because this game took a change in a very big way” Again, events dictate face time and this was indeed a huge turn of events. Stephenie has still remained consistent in her edit and as the “perceived” power yet we know power does not necessarily have to be seen all the time. Cindy had always concerned me regarding the “social aspect” of this game and my concerns still stand Lydia and her “arc” have been increasing and while some may believe she was a major power player in these events, I still see her as a tool which will be discarded when no longer necessary Rafe and Danni have always been consistently subtle with Rafe being a much bigger narrator. Again, I do not like to change my initial thoughts if I feel comfortable with them and while Rafe has consistently demonstrated his effective game play and his angelic symbolism at this voting was notable (if not a bit ironic?), I had mentioned in the first episode how last season we saw “a man among men” claim victory and perhaps “a women’s endurance” will prevail. However, as we know, every season is different and while Stephenie has shown to be the classic final two “foil” it is never written in stone that two candidates at the end have to tip the scales as opposing figures. Colby and Tina were both well regarded contestants in different aspects and were at the final two. It had appeared quite some time ago, however, there was a level of focus on Danni and Stephenie in conjunction with each other that struck me and seemed fitting with the approach of this season. Alas, editing is never as concrete as it appears but at this time, I remain stubborn
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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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12-02-05, 11:46 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-02-05 AT 06:42 PM (EST)Bravo VS, bravo Immediately after this episode I had a feeling that you wouldn't wait very long before breaking it down. These types of episodes are extremely telling to us as spoilers, but to the average viewer(more on that in a minute) they can tend to be very misleading. My wife has watched a majority of the episodes with me. I've made it a point to keep my opinion about the show re: spoiling to myself. This can be very difficult for me as I truely enjoy doing a post-mortem once it's over. Last season when I watched it with my wife, I pointed out to her very early on that Tom was my favorite and after each episode(when ever she would happen to watch one with me) I would tell her my thoughts and she would give me hers. I have friend at work that also watches the show, and we talk about it as well(I called him early this morning to get his take). He doesn't read any of the MB's, and is your classic average fan. Both my wife and friend from work have a different view of each episode and how the show is proceeding than myself. Thy both made some interesting comments about this episode, and the season in general that I'll include in my analysis. Sometimes they will make note of something that I completely missed, but most of the time they are very unaware that EPMB is manipulating the audiance through editing. Sometimes, withing the first 5-10min of the show I can just tell who's going to be booted. My gut instinct told me that it was going to be Judd, even though I wasn't sure how this would happen. There were a lot of shots of Judd just sitting around while others were working very hard to play the game. The shot of Judd sitting on the ruins while Steph and Danni(with Rafe joining them after their conversation had started) were apparantly talking strategy was telling. Judd was shown several times talking about his alliance and he felt confident things would work out the way they had planned. The RC was meant to soften him before his boot. This is what EPMB likes to do. His blow up at TC had to be shown, so EPMB had to give us a lot of visuals that showed Judd as being a very loving husband. This episode was the beginning of the end for two people. Next week it shoud be Cindy. She's been holding on in this game only because she ended up in the dominant alliance after the two tribes merged. She was at, or near the bottom, of the pecking order. The fact that there have been no conf. by her to indicate her precarious position indicates that she is clueless. Everybody left in this game has been shown strategizing. She was completely left out of the Judd boot plot, much like Judd was left out of the Jamie boot plot. That is never a good indicator for continued longevity when your own alliance won't tell you what's going on. After Cindy is booted it should be Lydia. Like VS, I've believe she's been kept around because she is a tool. Judd has even said as much. I'm not as convinced as VS that her "shopping" her vote around was all that calculating. She's just trying to go with the strength of the tide. This episode she was useful in getting rid of Judd. She went with Rafe, Steph and Dani because she couldn't get any response from Judd on who to give her vote to. R/S/D were more than willing to use her vote. I doubt she was given any information about the strategy other than who to vote for. After Cindy is voted out, she will no longer be necessary. Lydia and Cindy's position could be reversed but they are both definately on the outside looking in. I have a very strong feeling on how we get to the final 3 and beyond but I'll save that for a post later this week. Needless to say this episode helped answer a lot of questions. Every since the TC were Jamie was telling Rafe to have an opinion, I've had this feeling that he(Rafe) has never been confortable with Judd and Jamie in his alliance. I wasn't at all surprised when he voted to boot Jamie, and wasn't surprised that he voted to boot Judd. Rafe, to his credit, had played the social aspects of this game extremely well. I have to run some errands, but I'll get back to Dani and Steph later today as I have a lot to say. I'll also give some of the opinions/thoughts that were told to me by my wife and friend from work. During TC as Jeff was talking about how the people on the juror will decide the winner, and being able to defend your actions during the game, the camera kept going between Rafe and Steph, and only those two. They both looked visibly stressed. Being in the dominant alliance means that you have a better chance of going to the finals, but it also means that you are going to piss some people off in order to get to the F2 and those on the juror will make sure that you know it. Steph's edit for the most part was consistent with what we've seen so far. She is very paranoid when it comes to her alliance and just the thought that someone from her allliance would try to back door her makes her take a pre-emptive strike. But was she really responsible for Judd's boot? Dani, was responsible for Judd's boot, both indirectly and directly. She very much understood her positioin in this game and was willing to spend all her money to get that envelope. Those in the dominant alliance obviously felt safe enough with their position to not give her much of a challange. They also didn't realize that by Dani getting the envelope it all but assured her victory, thereby throwing a huge monkey wrench into their carefully laid plan. Dani knew that winning the IC would fracture their alliance and that's exactly what happened. Dani, went one step further and helped feed both Steph's and Rafe's paranoia in regards to Judd. The irionic thing was that she didn't have to lie to do this. Dani played those two, and in the end made it look like it was their idea. She very much understands the social aspects of this game. After the show was over, my wife and friend mentioned how they both thought Rafe and Steph were controlling this game. The both remarked that R/S can carry Dani along to F3 and then boot her out, after all Dani hasn't done well in challanges,as Judd had pointed out. To those comments I say mission accomplished by EPMB. The audiance is seeing what he wants them to see. DRONES
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Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-02-05, 12:33 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
I love reading your analysis, VS.Yes, Steph is being edited as the perceived power. But there has been a subtle shift in her edit of late, with the viewer seeing more and more decisions being made by others and attributed to her. She's moving from the deserving and strong player edit to that of the perfect scapegoat. 
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cayugasong 13 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
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12-02-05, 01:18 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
I was left with seeing Stephenie as having made a fatal error. She eliminated her partner, who always picked her (rewards - his Jersey gir), who planned to take her to F2, and so she has lost control of a second vote and is left only with her own.Last week, in the scene at the reward with Garry, Danni, and Judd, Steph expressed willingness to go with a final 4 of the worthy, the best players. She may include herself in that with Gabe, Danni, and Cindy - people she perceives as being loyal to her (which is important to Steph) and honest (no liars like Judd). But the scene of Lydia shopping her vote means that if Gabe remains true to his "for better or for worse" vow to Cindy, as well as his trust in Danni that they discused at the old camp this week, he can justify using Lydia to eliminate Stephenie next week. The rationale being that she's had her chance, played 2 seasons, gotten far, but now it is time for them to play out their season. I think Cindy's adventure continues, and Stephenie pays for her tactical blunder. One thing that strikes me every time the show starts, is the scene of the woman (from the waist down), running away from the camera just before they show Cindy. It makes me think of Cindy running away with the whole thing...
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mysticwolf 10692 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-03-05, 02:52 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
This could be (probably is) totally off the mark, but I'm wondering if not telling Cindy could be flipped in a good way for Rafe. Hear me out a moment.1) Stephanie, I think, actually believes she controlled the vote-off of Judd. She may even actively take credit when Cindy gets angry about being left out. 2) Casting the vote, Rafe clearly indicated that he was one who voted for Judd by using the name "Juddinator". Many have suggested that was a dumb move. I'm not so sure it wasn't calculated. Could he be planning to suggest to Cindy that it was Steph's idea that she not be told, so that Cindy would follow the original plan, meaning at least 1 Lydia vote other than Judd's? The idea being that Steph was hoping that Judd would assume the loyal one was herself, so she wouldn't necessarily lose his vote at F2. Might even suggest that Steph's intent was to set Cindy up for an F2 fall in Judd's eyes. By pointing out that he "outed" himself with his vote he can demonstrate that he obviously wasn't the one that wanted protection from Judd's knowledge of who voted against him. It's something I think Cindy would believe of Steph. (And, she'd probably buy the idea that she's lying if she says she didn't do it.) He could even say that breaking the Steph/Judd alliance was the only way that any of the rest of them had any chance at getting to F2. So, when Steph "said" that the only way she'd vote against Judd was if she had some protection aainst discovery, he felt it was a risk he had to take, for all their sakes. 'Cause, of course, he never expected the opportunity for a Steph/Judd alliance break, so it had to be acted on while the potential was there. This makes Steph a clear villain in Cindy's eyes and gives him some additional flexibility. He, Danni, Cindy vs. Steph (doesn't need Lydia). Or, he, Danni, Lydia vs. Steph (doesn't need Cindy). Or, he, Lydia, Cindy vs. Steph (doesn't need Danni). All basis who wins immunity, and what his gut tells him after watching whatever plays out over the next time period. BTW, it's been fun reading everyone's thoughts and observations. You have, and make, some very good ones. I haven't come to Spoilers in the past, but it's been fun. Me? I'm probably full of hot air, but I thought I'd dip in a toe and float a possible alternate theory. If that's not how he's planning to play it, I agree with you that he doesn't stand a chance past F3.  
Bad Wolf! by PM
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MDSkinner 716 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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12-02-05, 02:13 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
Wow, tremendous analysis as always.
I think that the thing that you mention here that I had not considered was the fact that Steph and Danni are being shown in head to head matchups.
As I thought of this, they really have been throughout the entire game. Whether it be the team challenges (the basketball one specifically comes to mind where individually Danni really outperformed Steph), or now the individual challenges they continue to show these two going at it, even though they seem to be friendly with one another right now. I think the biggest thing that we continue to see, is that Danni has come out ahead on a significant number of these "showdowns" and we are continually shown Steph being frustrated by that fact. The little cartwheel/roundoff series symbolized that beautifully in showing Danni outdue Steph again. Is this all being done to foreshadow a "showdown" between the two of them at the end, or just coincidence? Nothing seems coincidental with MB editing the show. Great analysis. Most enjoyable to read this today.
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Ravens04 9 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
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12-02-05, 03:29 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Music and ep. 11 - horror movies" |
Yeah, I agree MDSKINNER. I think the way last night's episode went. With Danni's great manipulaion without lying of what Judd was saying to Lydia, I think Steph just lost the game. Danni also wanted to keep Cindy out of the loop of the Judd vote, to make Cindy feel like Judd did when Jaime left, Shocked. Being pissed that her alliance did not tell her. Danni can now work Cindy to maybe get her on her side. I see a major shift that happen tonight, Danni and Rafe are both on the top of the totem pole with Steph looking up.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-02-05, 03:35 PM (EST)
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24. "Episode 12" |
VS, I believe you when you say you really like puzzles! The way you reconstructed Danni's confessional and dissected the conversation between Rafe/Danni and Steph was great!I thought this episode went according to the warning Jeff had given them a few TC's ago. The one about the importance of SHARING INFORMATION and who you share it with. Poor stupid Judd. He didn't heed the warning and opened his big mouth to Lydia and Danni. After his lies, it was an honest comment that sunk him. Too bad! We knew he couldn't win but he sure was entertaining! Danni certainly followed Jeff's advice. She shared information with Rafe and found out who was the missing link... oups! I mean, the weakest link, namely Judd and how to act on it. She then took information from Judd's comments and gave the neccessary information to Stephenie. As you stated she didn't overdo it but let Stephenie think it through. Rafe just supplied the neccessary input. No more than that and he's not the one blamed for betraying Judd. Stephenie probably had too much information and she overloaded! She first said she owed Judd a lot for 2 great rewards. What a way to pay him back!! Rafe's advice to think about it went right over her head. Cindy, the runner, didn't take advice from the others strategy at immunity and forged ahead right into a position she couldn't get out of. And were was she during the vital voting strategy. Taking a census of the howling monkeys? She was nowhere to be seen during that important sharing of opinions. Lydia was simply a catalyst that helped things along but she was no part of the decision to boot Judd just as a catalyst isn't part of the reaction.
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redbeard103152 466 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
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12-02-05, 06:59 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
To the people who have been waiting for Danni to finally show some game this episode shows game playing at its best.For Danni not being a member of the majority alliance to control the desisions made by them shows power it the best way possible.Immunity in this episode was absolutly necessary for her.She recognised right where she stood in the pecking order and knew what she had to do to remain in the game. The ironic thing about the reward challenge was that the biggest reward possible for the person who needed it most at the time she needed it the most was purchased cheaply. The game in my opinion was won by Danni for $20 more than the price of a Phillysteak sandwich.RedBeard
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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
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12-03-05, 01:27 AM (EST)
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26. "Argh! Help!" |
My stupid VCR didn't record episode 12! And I have no way of getting my hands on a tape of it! I'm really annoyed because I won't be able to do my musical analysis (the only episode I've missed so far!)If anybody has any suggestions on how I can download the episode or somehow watch it by another means, can they please PM me? I really don't want to miss this episode!
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-03-05, 04:49 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Argh! Help!" |
Have you tried Torrent, Applejack?
Here's a FAQ page about it, if you haven't:
http://dessent.net/btfaq/
You need a Bit Torrent client like Azureus Windows client; check the FAQ page for how to get that.Source for torrent files:
http://isohunt.com/
Put "Survivor" in Search and look for newest release. Friend of mine who used this said quality of the video was amazing. I have not tried it yet because so far, knock on wood, the DVR hasn't screwed it up.
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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
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12-05-05, 07:56 AM (EST)
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30. "Thanks!" |
Thanks OFG, it took me a little while but I eventually figured out how to use it, the episodes almost finished downloading!I have to apologise again for the lateness of my post!
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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
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12-05-05, 08:05 AM (EST)
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31. "Hey! We're famous!" |
Hey all, i was just reading through some sucks threads (as I do from time to time) and I came across this message from a sucks poster, cantocigalo:I also respect Veruca Salt's editing comments at Blows and applejack's assesment of the music which underscores the episodes and the individual players. Both see Danni as a more significant character than what we have been shown on the surface. It rings true to me. HA! Here's the original link: http://p085.ezboard.com/fsurvivorsucksfrm2.showMessageRange?topicID=18777.topic&start=61&stop=79 How funny! I knew that Pheonix has a permanent link to VS' thread, but I never knew that sucks took much notice of it! I thought they had their own editing guru's! My thanks goes to cantacigalo for noticing what we write - you should pop in some time, we'd all welcome you! as the season is coming to a close soon, I just wanted to tip my hat to everyone in this thread for making it my favourite internet hang-out! We have a really great community here that is making waves at other spoiler sites, and I am proud to be among those who frequently help us make sense of the ultimate reality TV show! This season has been the most fun yet!
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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-05-05, 02:35 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: Hey! We're famous!" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-05-05 AT 02:37 PM (EST)Hey Brownroach, I'll jump on this bandwagon! I literally am amazed every season by the experts here and I can not hardly wait to see the take on things after each episode. VS sure is the master at all of this, but she keeps great company with those that post here, and Applejack, you are just icing on the cake! Thanks for everyone here! And yes, this has been an amazing season! I'm really enjoying the demise of the axis of evil! 
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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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12-05-05, 04:38 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: Hey! We're famous!" |
Well, congratulations.Your analyses are undoubtedly time- consuming. Just know you are both appreciated !I'm looking forward to the music analysis, aj. Glad OFG could help. I'm not much of a cyber geek, but I'm grateful OFG is and I'm going to copy her link. I live in Canada. I have a crappy VCR, frequent power outages and the CBS on-line videos are sometimes unavailable. Thanks OFG for the back-up link. I'd die if I missed an important episode ! VS, I love reading your posts! I found this site last year when Sherpa wrote the SOS with a link to your thread and a warning not to enter unless you bring a 3-day supply of food! And I must admit, I always find plenty to read here ! VS, your analysis of EP12 was so thorough I only want to add a few thoughts. I think in the "curious scene", with Lydia and Judd, Lydia added to the "performance" by attempting to tip-off Judd. When she said, something like; "If you need my vote I'm here, otherwise, adios....good-bye....etc." (note BR, you don't need to quote the players, precisely, in order to get your point across) I thought Lydia was trying to tell Judd if you don't use my vote then YOU'LL be going bye bye (so, a double meaning). Unfortunately, for Lydia, I think the editing made her pathetic situation appear even more pathetic. For her sake, I hope Lydia's vote eventually becomes pivotal. Just a note about Cindy. After watching last episode, I decided Danni is actually a very crafty liar, in that she really exaggerated Judd's words. Cindy, who was blindsided, was not part of the lying at all. Ironically, Cindy may be the ONLY player who is not a liar by the end of it all. I agree, socially, Cindy seems to be at a disadvantage. Cindy seems to be treading carefully, trying to remain diplomatic, so she's not lying or ticking anyone off, but she doesn't really know what's going on either.
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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
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12-05-05, 08:22 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
Well, because VS suggested it and largely because it needs it - this summary will be divided between the players so that we can see what's going on with them. at this stage of the game it's important to look individually at each remaining survivor and see what's going on with them.Lydia
During the recap Lydia was highlighted several times by the music. The music stopped completely when Lydia said "I'm going with it". I think this highlights the fact that whether or not we like Lydia, we should remember that she is a player in this game. If anything can be taken away from episode 11, it's that Lydia IS a player and IS capable of playing Survivor. Once again there is ALOT of marimba underscoring everytime we see Lydia - even when she doesn't have a confessional and is just visually present. I said earlier that Marimba = positive - well this rule HAS changed somewhat, however not enough that the marimba has become a neutral instrument (occasionally it is used in combination with a threatening underscore, I think to soften the circumstance). I don't think this bodes well for Lydia - she is getting TOO much marimba and when a survivor gets a lopsided edit it generally isn't good. Everything in moderation, and Lydia doesn't have it. Can I just say that Lydia is VERY good at playing people. Especially when she started playing "Mr. Judd". She got quite a bit out of him, and told it to the right people. I understand VS, when you say she is a tool - the info she got was used as a tool to oust Judd - but she DOES have talent at getting people to talk, and it can't be denied. rafe
Rafe has been very constant, musically, throughout this game. This episode - not much changed. Due to rafe's position as narrator, his underscores are often devoid of melody and consist only of percussion. THis helps us to hear what he's saying as fact, without a positive or negative spin on it. YOu could hear this once again this episode. Rafe's underscores are consistent - RAFE is consistent. However - the same goes for rafe as goes for Lydia - rafe is TOO consistent. I want rafe to break the mold every now and then - but most episodes stay the same for him. I think that whilst the winner needs to have a fairly consistent edit, one without any high points or low points is rather dangerous. If rafe had one episode where the underscore was playing threatening, supernatural or evil music for him, I think he'd be in better stead to win. Steph
There was one thing that stood out for me with steph. For example - the highly contrived scene during the reward when judd and cindy were talking strategy was completely devoid of steph. The music here was VERY dangerous. It had anvils being hit, dissonant chords and threatening percussion. NOT very nice music at all. It was interesting that steph was left out here, then, when she is apparently the one calling the shots. I think the editors are doing a very good job keeping steph from becoming as negative as she could be. Becuase she wasn't present with this underscore, we are shown that others can be as bad as her. It could be an attempt to make viewers think she can still win it. Other than that, steph had nothing special, musically, this episode. Oh, steph also got some more 'inspiring' theme music when her family left - she's trying to catch up with Danni in the 'inspiring' stakes but I don't think she can. Now, I've left the two hardest players till last... Cindy
As I said when talking about steph, Cindy got some very negative music when she was talking with Judd about strategy. I think this resembles the path Cindy's edit has always been capable of taking. We've known she can be a little sour ("it's stupid") and this solidified that she can be quite nasty at times. Her presence in this underscore gave her a negative light for sure. As for this in terms of her longevity - I can't say. However, one thing that does (sadly) lead me to believe she may be going soon is that her only confessional this episode was smack bang in the middle of an 'inspiring theme', after the family had left. In music it's often said that you remember only the beginning and the end of a piece - well, here, steph and Judd had confessionals over the beginning and the ending of this 'inspiring theme' - so it's effect didn't really rub off on her and we don't remember what she said as well as we remember Judd and Steph. Much the same as I pointed out with Brooke - the music didn't stop or start with her, it washed over her, so what she says is largely inconsequential. And the winner is NEVER inconsequential. Danni
In the recaop the msuic stops for Danni's "I'm not gunna go home". THis is one of the take-home messages from last episode. Danni isn't going anywhere, the music highlights this. Danni got some of Lydia's marimba early in the episode, particularly over the gymnastics scene. This is good, I think, because it means that she's borrowing facets of other characters. We're just getting the right amount of Lydia in Danni for it to be a positive spin for Danni, she gets the marimba in moderation... Later on in the episode, Danni had a confessional about 'finding a crack' in the alliance. Here a wooden relative of the marimba, the xylophone, is heard playing a repititive motif. If anything, the xylophone sounded serious, not positive like the marimba. It's a good sign that Danni's confessionals are reduced to the character-driven fluff that often drives confessionals featuring the marimba. Finally, during the TC - the voting music was slightly more percussive than usual. Interesting, because a similar thing happened in ep. 9 when I mentioned that someone we haven;t seen yet is going to plow through the rest of the game. Judging based on who has a large increase in presence this week I think we can safely assume it is Danni. The fact that Danni's presence increased, and we had a slight rehash of the same music that suggested that someone would plow through the end game, is no coincidence. other stuff
Of the five remaining players - a definate four were singled out by the use of a thunder strike. When rafe sat down with the danni and steph in the final minutes of scheming, there was a thunder clap - I think to seal this newly formed alliance of three. THen when Lydia said "I'm here if anyone needs me" there was a second thunder clap. These four were 'locked in' by these thunder claps. It was like a newly forged power foursome had just appeared out of a storm. Lydia was a last minute addition, I think. Cindy was left out - and I fear she will be next week too  In the recap, the music stopped over "even Danni and Lydia helped vote out Gary" - this sentence was HIGHLIGHTED. WHY? It wasn't even an issue last episode, but in the recap it was! I think it's interesting that Danni and Lydia are getting alot of this sort of attention lately. Anyway, that's all from me... thanks to OFG for helping me find the episode!
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-06-05, 04:25 AM (EST)
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36. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
Just want to say you're welcome to Surviette and applejack and so glad the link is/was useful. I am the farthest thing from a cyber-geek but I know people who know things and have turned me onto stuff ... downloads are pretty cool.more interesting analysis, Surviette, Lydia and Cindy are become more finalized as characters, finally!
aj, your musical analysis puts me in awe. I can't hear any of this. I can barely get my family to shut up enough to let me hear the dialogue, much less the musical score! But even if I were watching alone I doubt I would hear with your precision. Thank you!
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dagny13 1 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
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12-06-05, 07:29 AM (EST)
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37. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
First post here. Sucks member for years, though not always a frequent contributer.Just wanted to tell you all that I have always read this forum, and this thread in particular. I do love the editing discussions, but never really have been able to "get" Edgic at Sucks, so I come over here. Just thought I'd register finally to let you all know that I think there is some darn fine work done at Blows. VS, et al, always amaze me with the depth of analysis and spot on reasoning. Even if it doesn't pan out for reasons unforeseen, the analysis is always rock solid. Thanks for sharing over the years.
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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
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12-06-05, 08:44 AM (EST)
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38. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
dagny, very nice to see you here and the next season is just around the corner. I love seeing commentary from everyone and hope you will be contributing also
I was hoping for a lot of comments everyone (as I was reading only myself reply to myself ) and I see that everyone has been doing a lot of great speculation on various scenarios that could occur. I cannot do "what ifs"; they give me a headache and I find, in this unpredictable game, I am usually wrong so I really enjoy coming here and reading all the possible scenarios.
applejack, I am glad you were able to view this episode. It was a personal favorite of mine mostly because it is refreshing to see two female players that are not pigeon holed as "one dimensional" characters. I had been hoping that the initial observations that Stephenie and Danni would eventually "connect" would come to fruition not just for the sake of the editing panning out but also because we don't tend to see a level of competition directly involving two women that share quite a bit in common but also have distinct differences in their game play. While Stephenie tends to remain a bit unpopular in some viewers eyes, I think Stephenie (quite like a lot of players) is a victim of being an emotional and strong player AND being a woman. This is not to say that all of her choices were correct but it would be interesting to see how Stephenie would be viewed if everything she did and said was coming from a male.
Frankly, I am surprised how quickly this season came and went with only two episodes to go and I hope to see a lot of comments between Thursday and Sunday since all our questions will soon be answered
At this juncture, forehead knows how I "sink or swim" with my initial thoughts. I think we did very well with the long term players regardless of the exact order of final outcome when it is revealed.
It was a pleasant surprise to see such great feedback and from other places as well. I am very comfortable in my little niche so thank you for sharing about the post applejack and that Survivor Phoenix had provided a link to all of our discussion(my friend forehead had mentioned it in the voting thread once but I get very absent minded) Any expression from others that we may provide some thoughtful conclusions is so nice to see. I went back and pulled all of Jeff's TC commentary as this season, his comments seemed extremely relevant to how the events played out. Obviously, some of his closing remarks were directly involving the events that preceded it but I found quite a few that helped to embody the overall aura of the season. Again, I do have to say that his very first comment would seem the most prophetic IF the outcome is what was discussed after the first episode. ”The dilemma you have is giving it your all without destroying yourselves in the process” Without question, Stephenie DID give it her all; she showed us this last season as well but with what price to her alliance and to herself? Second TC:
"Based on vote, little confused, believe you are unified but on other hand, person voted out never saw it coming" This occurred quite often during the season where those who felt comfortable had the wool pulled over their eyes. Much like quitting was a natural phenonemon last season, "blindsiding" occurred enough this season for the audience to notice. Third TC: "Voting based solely on physical strength can be risky" A true theme of this season that we noted upon episode one. Strength vs. endurance and this situation certainly had interesting ramifications. Fourth TC:
"Tribal lines and loyalty will shift but remember every time you shift, you make it harder to trust." TRUST, another huge theme that was prevalent throughout the season and the shifts that occurred did cause a lot of cracks. Fifth TC:
"The game just took a big shift" Something we see throughout the season, the "shifts" portion of every season is a major arc in the development of the end game. Sixth TC: "You got rid of the problem; if that’s true, there should be happy days at Nakum" and "You did a great job of pumping him up and making him feel secure and then cutting his throat. If it can happen to him, it can happen to you.” Relevant to the events that occurred; interesting enough the "happy days" at Nakum was ironic at this point. Jeff's comments about Brian's exit has direct relevance to the "blindsiding" that occurred and those who felt good where they stood should not have been that comfortable. Seventh TC:
“I am convinced that you really have become a close group; hopefully that will help you.......” Again, relevant to this tribe because they were a close knit tribe; if the outcome is what has been discussed then this commentary is also nice foreshadowing Eighth TC: "One thing certain, everything you have done up till now and everything after, matters" As it does every season Ninth TC:
"The next phase is going to center around lying. Only problem is you are lying to the jury......." Again, the theme shouted by Jeff. Lying is something that has been done over and over in Survivor but this season this word reached new heights. This has been emphasized immensely in conjunction with those who deserve to be there and trust in those you are playing the game with. Tenth TC:
"Jamie gave you the best advise (regarding blindsiding). Who you share information with and who shares it with you is critical; consider that a gift" as michel earlier stated, SHARING certainly came back in the last episode. This was nice foreshadowing of the events that occurred after this TC. Eleventh TC:
"Well one thing is clear, no one is going down without a fight. Over the next nine days, there should be some big battles” Again, nice foreshadowing to what would occur the following episode. Last TC:
”You can longer rely on what used to be because this game took a change in a very big way" Our last commentary from Jeff which will be interesting to see how impactful these words are as well
Again, it is amazing how much I learn reading everyone's comments each season and am constantly amazed at the level of insight and from so many different directions we get. I am looking forward again to everyone's observations after Thursday and naturally after the conclusion so we can look back to see the patterns and the changes that occurred so we can adjust for the following season
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architecturegirl 227 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
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12-06-05, 04:34 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
Well, its time I suck it up and give a full-fledged analysis of what I think is going on, and my interpretations with regard to each player. I've spent so much time reading what everyone else has to say that by the time I would get around to writing my own stuff its almost time for the next episode!I have been a fan of Danni, Cindy, and Rafe for a long time. I liked Brandon too, and miss him. Cindy and Danni for a long time I was a fan of for seemingly no reason, we didnt have much background on them. With Danni though, I've always felt, as many people have said here - that she is playing hard, just well under our radar. Just because we dont see something doesnt mean it isnt there. Cindy I think had promise that hasnt really ever come to fruition though. So here's my interpretation of each player: LYDIA - I've tried to feel bad for her, but I just dont. I really dont have a lot to say about her because I am a huge fan of players that actually PLAY (Rob C, Kathy, and Colby, etc), and well, I dont think she really has that killer survivor instinct (it comes in many forms as we've seen from all the different types of winners). She hasnt out-played anyone, she certainly hasnt out-witted many, and I just dont think she'll outlast. She stated herself clearly what her role has been - "Anyone need my vote?" When they dont - she's gone. I think Gary was wrong about her when he said if anyone went up against her she'd win. I cant imagine her winning against much of anyone. CINDY - I have been holding out hope that she'd make a Vecepia like come from obscurity, but she just hasnt. I think on one hand its amazing she got this far, and on the other hand I cant believe she hasnt played her hand better to get her farther. She has been true-blue. In this set, that should mean a lot, yet somehow she hasnt capitalized - unlike Danni. I think she's on her way out. Wish she'd played a little more rounded strategy game. STEPH - Well, as much as we love to hate her, she has played a damn good game. She has somehow been this season's Rob M., and managed to be the obvious leader without having anyone turn on her. You gotta give the girl kudos for that. I really think though that rather than Rafe being her lap dog, that Rafe has her played like a fiddle, and she has no idea. She'll be taken to the final two because - no one could win against Rafe. She'll lose because she played Rob M's game and didnt learn from his mistakes. RAFE - I love this boy, every episode I just love watching him play an almost perfect strategic game. He is the puppeteer, and he is maneuvering the game around and getting rid of people in his alliances - while all the while the spotlight for those moves is on other people. He has managed to be in charge without people realizing it, and without being the bad guy. The problem is, he's TOO liked, and been TOO good at challenges - take him to the final two, and you lose, no matter who you are because no one dislikes him, and no one can deny he's played an excellent game. Unfortunately, that will be his downfall. If he can win that last immunity challenge though, the title is his, hands down. I'd be happy to see him win, just dont think it'll happen. DANNI - Well, I just love this girl. I think that she has played a VERY smart, almost brilliant game. I think we will see happen now, exactly what happened while she was at Yaxha. She played under the radar, tried to be non-threatening, got to know people and formed relationships, then quietly did what she needed to do to further herself, emerging as the person in the best position of all of them. That is exactly what will happen here. She hung back, let other people in her group be the targets, let Gary do all the strategizing, making himself a "threat", while she formed relationships, never doing anything untrustworthy. Now its time to take care of herself, and she's using that trustworthiness, and relationships to manipulate people into doing what she needs - yet in a way that no one will think anything bad of her. While members of the jury might vote for someone else - there wont be one of them that feels that Danni lied to them or was sneaky. She is the perfect example I think of the right way to play under the radar. One final note - I've been meaning for a long time to bump the opening credits spoiler thread which long ago talked about trends in the opening credits and what they mean. I'll just address a few things here that should give a pretty good idea of how some of this pans out - first and foremost, I think we've all come to the conclusion that it will be a Steph/Danni final two - well, according to the opening credits history - no winner has ever been shown swimming in their action shot. Steph is swimming in hers. No winner has ever been shown obviously mid - challenge. Lydia is obviously mid-challenge. There was a lot of speculation of the special shot from behind of Cindy's while running could mean - well, I looked at several opening credits from previous seasons, and was surprised to see two other survivors had a similar type shot that was out of sync with every one else from their season - Ibrehem from Palau, and Lisa from Vanuatu. Thus, I think this shot dooms Cindy rather than being a good omen. Not to mention that she is shown mid - challenge. That leaves us with Rafe and Danni. Regular analysis based on what the last thread had to say doesnt help me differentiate here, other than that Rafe is shown covered in mud as are Judd and Maragaret. This doesnt bode well for him I think, but wouldnt say definitely. One thing I did notice though, is if you go to Survivor Phoenix's site they show the frames of the "Sole Survivor" with survivors holding a torch - the two featured survivors are without a doubt female. I think this signifies a female final two, and since I see Steph as eliminated due to the swimming shot - that leaves Danni. She is also shown with blue sky behind her in her "action" shot. I think this is a good thing. For those of you who are curious about the original Opening Credits spoiler thread - here is a link: http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/6069.shtml There is a link to the survivor phoenix videocaps in that thread. Sorry if the link isnt active, not sure why not. Its the correct address though, so you should be able to copy and paste it into your browser. Well, there. I finally did it, whew, took a while! Oh, and I agree with everyone else - this thread is the best for real discussion, and there are some great insights from everyone here! I've truly enjoyed reading what everyone has to say!
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-08-05, 01:02 AM (EST)
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40. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
architecturegirl, I'm glad you took the time to make that long analysis, loved it, I think you pretty much nailed it!As for Steph, I want to say I have never disliked her for her game this season. I just don't like her personality. She is not a happy influence. Either she is bummed out or she is full of herself or pissed at someone and when she is happy all she does is let her jaw drop as she says OMG. She simply doesn't ADD anything to my TV experience. I don't think she is interesting or charming. I agree that she played a Rob M type game, although she was more moderate if anything and never took Rob's attitude of screw you, I won't kiss your #####. But I enjoyed Rob M as a character and not so with Steph. I felt bad seeing Rob crucified by the jury, but I'll enjoy seeing Steph get it ... why does she make me feel so mean? Rob was an ass to people, but he was also kind of sweet and had a sense of humor. VS, I wouldn't like her any better as a man, but I would like her better if she had a sense of humor and a tad of sensitivity to others. VS, love the use of Probst comments! Very nice.
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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-08-05, 07:33 AM (EST)
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41. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-08-05 AT 07:34 AM (EST)Definately, Robbfadda was a character. He could certainly turn on the charm and he was quite playful and jovial. He loved to sing and he entertained his tribe. I don't think he really hated anyone and he had the ability to really laugh at circumstances and at himself. Steph is just so serious. While I do respect her intensity and understand where it comes from, she just seems so darned egocentric....it's all about her. I got the feeling that Rob truely enjoyed being on Survivor and he capitalized on it. I don't get the impression that Steph is enjoying herself at all, everything is just so dire. I do get the impression that Danni is certainly making the most out of the experience, she definately remains upbeat through it all. Rafe is a little too serious to me as well. Cindy is just there, and Lydia is trying to hang in there as best she can...she's just on the outside looking in, trying to play a Sandra type game. 
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Booted 156 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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12-08-05, 08:34 AM (EST)
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42. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
VS:I really appreciate your posts. They are always interesting to read. I learn so much from them. There is one thing that has REALLY come across to me on the battle between Steph and Danni. Steph: She is intense. When she is competing she really competes. When she (or her tribe) wins she is really up and positive (and I think a little snotty). Examples: She and BJ got to sit with Judd and eat when Judd won the food reward. She is all laughing and having a good time. Steph, Danni, Gary and Judd won the overnight reward with the videos. Even back at camp she was kind of “this was great reward” around the other players. When she loses she is down. You see her crying in confessionals. She her complaining to one of her alliance mates about someone, etc. If someone attacks her – LOOK OUT! Examples: Lydia saying that Steph got to eat more than the others and did not deserve it. Judd (in Steph’s mind) looking to not take Steph to the finals with him. She very quickly goes on the offensive. Danni: She is intense. When she is competing she really competes. When she (or her tribe) wins she is really up and positive. She is not snotty about it and just seems to enjoy the reward. When she came back from the overnight reward with the videos it was not shown that she was talking about how great the reward was. When she loses it comes across to me that she is upset at losing. As with Steph, this is because she is so competitive. She does not let that come across to others though and remains upbeat and ready to move on to the next thing. While I can not think of a time when someone attacked her I get the feeling, from what we have been shown on the show, that she would listen to what they have to say, consider it and use it to better herself. SO… what does this mean for the final 2 tribal council? I get the feeling that most of the judges are going to be open minded about who to vote for. But many of them are passionate. I think they will attack mercilessly. Here is where I believe that the $1,000,000 will be won or lost. I think that Steph will get defensive and attack some of them back. “(With a snotty tone in her voice) Well, you were going to vote me out” “Well, Danni said this” "Well Danni never did that”, etc. She will not take responsibility for anything that happened. “Rafe told me this”. “Lydia told me that”. I think Danni will listen to the comments. I think she will take responsibility for her actions. I think she will explain her game play. I think she will say, “Thank you, that was not what was meant” or “Hmmm, I never thought of it that way”. I think she will be much more open and comfortable with the final jury. I think Danni will come across as comfortable and Steph will come across as defensive and she will attack some. Some of the jury members will attack back by voting for Danni. My final 4 with voting. 4th Lydia
3rd Rafe loses the challenge to Danni. Danni takes Steph. Final 4 votes Danni
Jamie (One of the ones Steph attacks)
Judd (One of the ones Steph attacks)
Gary (He likes Danni more)
Lydia (She does not Steph’s attitude)
Rafe (He looks at the last challenge and how she survived to get there)
Steph
Cindy (She is a very loyal person and does not know Danni)
BJ (Admires Steph enough to vote for her)
Looking forward to tonight’s episode and the finally Sunday. Boot Ed
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PBJ 2 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
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12-08-05, 08:19 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
VS and all:I use to post here years ago, lost my ID, and became a lurker. I have read VS's and everyone else's spoiling/ speculation here and truly enjoy and it is the best. I thought I would give my first post here to VS in appreciation of her great work. Now I just have to find a decent siggie....
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Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-08-05, 11:25 PM (EST)
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44. "Key comments for final 4" |
Since it's after 11pm Eastern, I can put this here. So, how much did the comments set up the final two outcome we've already been predicting, with Danni winning the final IC and taking Steph? Danni finally lies, when Rafe tells us about her promise to take him to the final two with her if he wins the final immunity. We were reminded in the recap about Steph's comment that she didn't think Danni had lied yet, so we understand why Rafe would trust her to keep her word. We were also reminded over and over why Rafe cannot go to the final 2 - as Cindy pointed out, he has brains, he wins physically challenges, and he's nice. Rafe even admitted he's playing the game too nicely. Great way to win jury votes...unless you're playing with people smart enough to make sure you never get in front of the jury. Sure, she loses Rafe's vote by lying, but she only needs 4. She can afford to lose his. Meanwhile, we also see Steph realizing that she is in grave danger of losing a jury vote. When talking about voting out Cindy, she points out the votes she's already lost. She's concerned about the backlash if she yet again votes out someone who just took her on a reward. She knows that she's turning into the ideal final 2 opponent, given the votes racking up against her, and she's trying to stem the tide while there's still time. Big surprise (not) that Lydia is going to go out in 4th place. She was basically in the background this entire episode and was the one player for whom we didn't see any strategy. Why? Because there was no need to show it. She's been written off in every sense of the word - by the editors, by the other contestants, and by the viewers. Right now, she's a vote that they can use to eliminate a target. She'll serve her purpose at the final four, since no one will waste the effort to keep her around to force a 2-2 tie. With all of the talk we saw about the final 3, we were reminded yet again that Lydia is a mere pawn, to be used until her usefulness ends. She's even worse than Jan from Thailand in that regard. Yawn. The progression of the final four has been laid out for us (they even gave us the final 4 IC winner!). Lydia gone 3-1, then Danni wins final IC and takes Steph along, knowing that Steph overplayed her hand early and is an easy jury target.
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tikigirlie 112 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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12-09-05, 02:44 AM (EST)
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46. "RE: Key comments for final 4" |
we saw danni tell rafe that she'd take him to the final if she won. we know rafe didn't win, cause he's not F2. is it possible that rafe is the first out of the final IC, and steph brokers a deal with danni?the way i see it, steph knows that she can't go with rafe to F2 with her because she knows she'll lose hard. she figures, "hey why not danni? i have a better chance against her." (which she does.) anyway, she doesn't want to outright win and take danni, but she wants to make sure that danni takes her. maybe she makes a deal that if she steps off, danni will take her to F2. rafe is torn, because it's likely both women have promised him a spot in the final, and they're agreeing to vote him out. he is upset at steph for initiating it, and danni for agreeing to it (and then eventually sticking to it). the way i see it, steph believes that the pressure would be put on danni's neck, therefore in the F2 grilling, she could tell rafe that danni could've lied in the agreement and taken him instead. blah blah blah, i'm tired so maybe i'm not making sense.
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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
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12-09-05, 12:28 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Key comments for final 4" |
Bebo so glad to see that you started us off, the episode merited it didn't it!Pepe, yes; Rafe's character had a major shift no question which of course lends suspicion when something like this happens. It would be so unlike me to not post an entirely too long commentary so in order to be consistent Again, an extremely interesting episode which was extremely reflective of how this game changes and shifts occur Although I had a somewhat different take of it, I know many of you had issues about Danni’s presence throughout the entire show waiting for her to be shown or do something. Although I felt differently, I understand how one wants to see the person more fully so I think it is safe to assume that she was extremely visible now which was evident even in the recap
The Recap Danni vulnerable but optimistic
“This perfect little alliance is going to have to start breaking up; I’m not going down without a fight”
Danni outbid the other for a clue........
Judd picks Cindy and Stephenie and Danni, Rafe and Lydia are exiled
Danni and Rafe strategized
Danni shown that she trusts Rafe and that SHE is also important to have around
Lydia tries to ally with Judd while Danni listens in
A mental challenge at IC, the clue paid off when Danni beat out Stephenie
Danni’s next move was to target Judd
Stephenie: “Danni hasn’t really lied”
Danni’s maneuvering worked and Judd and Cindy were surprised when Stephenie, Rafe, Danni and Lydia banded together to vote out Judd. (Notice that even during the recap, the events seem to wish to confirm that Danni was a key mover and shaker in the events that occurred. Whether alone or with another very subtle and effective player, Rafe, ) Prefacing the episode, I must say that visually this was an overwhelming episode. If you have the opportunity to watch it again, notice the key moments of close up visuals of certain players during certain times and conversations and what the impact was. Placement of the players, contrived shots and so forth really set the tone of how the episode “felt” The Tribal Council Aftermath
Stephenie “As he spoke........”
(Danni interjects with “scumbags”)
Stephenie “....turned into Jamie a little bit......” Danni (conf) “....Stephenie and Rafe broke that alliance, I was praying for a crack in that alliance” Both Stephenie and Rafe obviously need to explain to Cindy what happened with Rafe stating:
Rafe “Like, you know, (inconsequential but I could have sworn he mistakenly called her Amy) it wasn’t like I was making the decision to vote you out tonight” (Thereafter, Cindy states the next thing she knows she’s going to be gone with Stephenie’s reply that it could be any of them) Interesting “Filler” Material” In my first post after the first episode, I had mentioned about endurance over strength and could that potentially mean the women endure over the men thereby leading to the extinction of them. Although the scenes following were mainly filler material to the average viewers eyes, in light of how we saw the themes evolve, it played out nicely here if at the end, the men were to be found extinct. Stephenie mentions to Rafe about being the only male left
Rafe “Hardest Survivor and it’s the gay guy and four women”
Lydia “All the boys pretty much on the jury” Rafe (conf) “I’m the last man standing; really happy. It’s like Rafe’s angels are sitting around camp” (Never get comfortable in this game) Thereafter, we saw “fun” moments at camp with Rafe, Lydia and Danni making faces and so forth which essentially was assisting the audience in believing Rafe’s narration of how happy the tribe is now and how well everything is going. Lydia “....gentle type male, fits right in; one of the girls” (We then see Rafe singing - from my hazy recollection, singing never seems to work out well for contestants ) Rafe “They could easily vote me out; but on a close, personal level, I have personal friendships with all four of them.....” Visual: A shot of all four players sitting in a row was then shown as: Cindy, Lydia, Danni, Rafe, Stephenie. What is probably most interesting is that Danni, of all, people, is sitting squarely in the middle. She is the “odd man out” but symbolically she has placed herself firmly in the middle of a group of people who have been working together; she “cracked” them) Rafe continues..... “That is the thing that I am hoping will get me to the end” (a cute shot at the end of this where we see Rafe looking upwards as a pair of female legs stand over him) (Obviously this segment is setting the tone for the events later that will play out. Much mention was made throughout the episode about the “women” and also later commencing Rafe as a threat in full force regardless of his close ties with these women) The Car Connundrum One of the more interesting aspects of this show comes to us in decision making. Survivor is very hypocritical because the show revolves around character, values, morals and so forth. A perfect example we saw of this much throughout this season was the debate on “lying” and what constitutes a lie, how a lie is perceived and how one accepts a lie. The problem that these contestants will ALWAYS have to deal with is the hypocrisy. One may think another’s decision is not what they would do as a “person” when, in reality, they probably would. Stephenie (to Rafe) “We’re the only two that don’t have a car” (At the time this brief commentary was held, it appeared to have meant nothing. THIS is yet more proof of the beauty of editing; this exchange was necessary to show in light of how Rafe viewed the car decision plus a little bit more.......) The Challenge Again, perhaps nothing but I noted the visuals throughout the episode and where they were focused upon. As the contestants walked into the challenge area to take their place on the mat, they did not show Cindy or Lydia close up to stand on the mat, we saw only a distant, faraway shot of their arrival. Immediately after, they show Stephenie, close up and take her spot, Danni close up and take her spot and Rafe, close up and take his spot. Ordinarily, this one visual would mean nothing but these shots occurred throughout the ENTIRE episode Jeff (explaining the challenge, at the very end) “...send you racing down to the finish” (camera pans to Danni who is watching and smiling) The challenge commences and as Cindy states later, it was nice to see a group of women at the end competing. We do not see this very often and like last week with Stephenie and Danni facing off, I find this enjoyable in light of almost the novelty of it. Cindy being awarded the car along with the decision she needed to make was really more about the consequences that resulted. Again, visually we were clearly shown the other contestants and what the audience was meant to think they felt Stephenie was shown to be genuinely happy immediately after Cindy’s win. In fact, Stephenie’s “edit” was clearly the most positive and it was meant to directly contrast Rafe’s downward dip in his character. Both of these individuals do not have their own car and it was clear we were meant to see the contrast as well as flesh out both their character editing. One may view that Danni was also showcased in a downward dip but if you look at each occurrence and the events, it was designed solely to focus on Rafe Danni, in actuality, despite her “agreement” with Rafe’s position was shown fairly benign. Cindy “I can win a car and a million dollars if I play my cards right and do my best. I’m here to beat the odds; so far I have” (There are some statements a player should never make in the presence of others who are ALSO playing for a million dollars; that would be one of them ) Rafe is visually honed in to show his disappointment Cindy “Normally, in the game of Survivor, if you come in second, it gets you nothing, but today it’s going to get Stephenie a reward with me” (Prophetic words of coming in second?) Visual: (As Stephenie comes forward, we hear her affirm to Cindy that she too, would have kept the car and thereafter a shot of Danni is shown watching the two of them.) As Stephenie and Cindy get in the car we hear Cindy “No guarantees..... giving people a car doesn’t mean they are gonna say give her a million bucks” Visual: (Again, immediately after, we see the camera pan in on Danni and Rafe watching) Cindy “How cool was it to see 3 chiquitas at the finish line” and “I was like, they are ruling this game!” (Again, interesting commentary regarding the female situation which ties in nicely to how this season started)
Stephenie “To your new car and the final four” (Again, one of the clear editing clues that it does not happen that way)
Cindy “Screw the curse” (Uh, oh ) The Debate With Some Manipulation We see Rafe and Danni discussing the car decision. By now, it is a foregone conclusion that Lydia has “left the game editing wise” We barely saw a blip on her radar and any and all conversations or situations that occurred Lydia was merely a body. The story obviously will not be ending with Lydia; she could have left the island and we would not have know. The entire show was, in actuality, an arc rounding out Stephenie and Rafe’s characters, a commencement for Danni and Rafe and Danni’s continuing insulation in a cracking group (The following confessional by Rafe was broken up with different segments with him talking to Danni, talking to Lydia and later talking with Stephenie but for content purposes, I am putting it together as it reflects the difference in how the editing wanted Rafe to be conveyed even though Danni was also shown questioning Cindy’s decision) Rafe (conf) “Couldn’t believe that was the decision Cindy made, I never would have taken car myself” and “I know if Cindy gave the four of us a car, there is no way I’d vote her out but now you never know and “It is cute how she is excited but it is grating on everyone’s nerves” and “You can only hear so much about it, can’t you read the body language, no one is listening; best to stop at that time” and “The only thing I was thinking about is that you could give four other people a car and it seems like everyone else is thinking what they could have so it kind of makes me think am I playing this game too nicely? Should I play this game a little harder than I am?” Contrast the above with only: Danni (conf) “I thought Cindy would do it because I would have in a heartbeat because you would have four people very happy with you” Notice the difference in how these confessionals are relayed. The audience knows that Rafe and Danni would have decided differently but the focus was clearly more on Rafe. Rafe was also meant to portray that Cindy’s safety relied on what she could give him which in actuality contradicts his premise that others are thinking about what they could have since Rafe is essentially telling the audience that he, also, is thinking this way. In contrast, Danni simply told us she would have chose differently because she knew that the outcome could only have more benefit than not. Along with this, Rafe is shown telling Danni that he couldn’t believe Cindy’s decision and he would never have taken the car himself and felt( when Jeff made his statements for Cindy to decide) he “felt so sad for Cindy that she has to give it up; she has no other choice whereas Danni was only shown nodding her head and saying that was what she was thinking The conversation among the three of them (Lydia, Danni and Rafe) ensues but what I found most interesting and certainly may be indicative of Danni’s skill along with how editing does matter was this brief snippet: Lydia “In my mind I am thinking, Cindy keep the car”
Danni interjects about IF she NEEDED a car (This was the pay off to the words spoken by Stephenie with Rafe about only those two not having their own vehicle. Danni obviously knows this and this comment alone rounded out the necessity of showing Stephenie and Rafe as the ones without a vehicle. Credit may be due Danni with that statement to help affirm Rafe’s issue with Cindy’s decision. IF the comment from Stephenie to Rafe was not in the show, Danni’s comment means relatively nothing but for the comment by Stephenie to be purposely kept in, this was important. What was also a potentially manipulative mention by Danni was upon Cindy and Stephenie’s arrival back at camp. Lydia greeted them warmly but immediately Danni brings up the car to Cindy. Perhaps nothing or perhaps a subtle tool to bring up the subject that is “irking” Rafe?) Much later, we see more of the car decision ramifications that further the character’s edit. Notice again, it was all about the contrast of Stephenie and Rafe. Stephenie “......she felt bad and I was like why?”
Rafe “Well, Danni and I both thought she was.....”(giving up the car)
Stephenie “So did I; she was considering it”
Rafe (stumbles here since he sees that Stephenie is not supporting his decision and makes sure that Stephenie knows that it is he AND Danni which is a nice save by him) “I didn’t...Danni and I both thought there wasn’t any other option”
Stephenie “Really? I didn’t think anyone would have; I don’t think I would have done it” Stephenie (conf) “Sometimes I feel like Rafe tries to play the martyr a little bit.... that was like the first time we disagreed the whole game” (Again, notice how the focus is on Rafe alone) (The conversation that occurred with Rafe and Stephenie appeared to have been heavily edited. If you notice, while the two were talking, we clearly see Danni and Lydia in the background. Suddenly, after Stephenie’s conversation, Lydia is somehow in the conversation BUT we never see Lydia in the same camera shot and interestingly enough Danni is not there although Danni and Lydia were both working and talking together in the background. Lydia’s “placement” (if manipulated into the scene) was solely designed to negate Rafe’s position and support Stephenie’s thereby furthering the somewhat negative tone to Rafe and although Stephenie is asking Lydia, I sense that the sentences were out of sequence and put together for effect) Stephenie “Lydia, would you have given up the car” (Although we know, she is addressing Lydia, Lydia is not in the shot and the camera pans to her working where just before she had been in the background; you ONLY see Lydia shrug with no words) However....... Lydia (in a voiceover) “I think Cindy made the right choice” (Perhaps this voice over happened at that moment, perhaps not, but I found it suspicious in light of the fact that we saw her only shrug at Stephenie’s question and her statement about it being the right choice sounded definite) Visuals: During Cindy’s description of the vehicle (which, of course, was editing overkill to drive home Rafe’s confessionals) camera shots, again, were focused solely on Danni and Rafe in profile, again, to “drive” the point firmly to the viewers Stephenie and Cindy (Important conversation shown to help set up the remainder of the episode reflecting that Stephenie is not as sure of Rafe as she thought and emergence of Danni seen as a threat.) Stephenie “I really like Danni but I don’t want to chance it”
Cindy “And THOSE TWO are......”
Stephenie “Right! If she went further than me that would suck. Or you, or Rafe” (Not only would this appear to be nicely place foreshadowing should this occur, notice how Stephenie asserts it would “suck” if Danni went further than HER and then mentions as an afterthought Cindy and Rafe)
Cindy “Danni?”
Stephenie “Yeah, we came to the merger with the numbers”
Cindy “We have a chance to get rid of her and we didn’t”
Stephenie “A number of times” Visual: (Immediately after this sequence of discussion, the camera goes straight to one of their candles with the flames burning; interesting symbolism perhaps?) Stephenie “All it would take would be you, me and Lydia but I would like to include Rafe”
Cindy “I think he would go for it; it guarantees you another day in the game” “If we beat each other, that’s one thing, but she would BEAT US ALL”
Stephenie “And we would look like total idiots”
Cindy “Danni, just like the rest of us is gonna come on strong by the day because the stakes are highter” (This coming from the same woman who deemed Danni no threat at all just one episode ago)
Stephenie “No one has promised her anything” (really?) “Rafe’s a smart kid, he’ll be fine with it” (No, he won’t ) (And, like most stories, we are left here with the cliffhanger at the commerical) Immunity Challenge Again, aside from Stephenie’s winning, what again struck me was solely the visuals Cindy expressed her delight about the vehicle upon Jeff’s asking about the reward
“Awesome, that it is mine” (Immediate camera shot to......Danni and Rafe) Stephenie “It looks good on you” (Stephenie says this to Danni after Jeff has her give back the immunity necklace; another subtlety) Again, Jeff describes the challenge and during the challenge description, we only see Rafe, Danni and Stephenie shown, all standing next to one another. This happened two times during Jeff’s challenge description The Victory of Stephenie Regardless of opinion of Stephenie, her winning the immunity was an emotional display and meant to relay emotion for the audience. Ironic that during the challenge “she was just short” twice which may be ironic in light of her being on the show twice and “short” both times? Stephenie “OMG, I finally won something” (Again, another comment of irony? In any event, the moment was touching and Stephenie’s edit again was softened)
Visuals: Palpable shots of Cindy, Danni and Rafe looking dejected they lost for obvious reasons. Again, Lydia a non- entity.
Jeff “Stephenie, you’ve come a long way from your first Tribal Council and
Jeff “With this, you are guaranteed a spot in the final four”
Visual: (This above comment was done in voice over and the most telling part about this was not so much what Jeff said but again, visually what occurred during the voice over. We saw the camera focus on Rafe who appear to look over in Danni’s direction with the camera then showing Danni who appears to be looking right back at him) Stephenie “I guaranteed myself final four and I didn’t think I was going to make it past the first tribal council” (A big part of Stephenie’s story, if not all of Stephenie’s story was her continuation of her last season. Stephenie, regardless of what happens in the end really accomplished a huge feat and directly related to her arc) Secrets, Deals and Promises Danni “Nobody breathes easy until Tribal Council’s done”
Rafe “No! I definitely won’t. My promise to you is the final three”
Danni “Me too”
Rafe “I won’t vote for you this time or next time no matter what and I’m not changing that no matter what happens” (We shall see.....)
Danni “Me either, I’m just afraid Stephenie might sway you know”
Rafe “If Stephenie starts to sway, I’ll deal. We’ll be totally fine for tonight”
(I find it very interesting how literally overnight it appeared that Cindy and Rafe were no longer close and Danni and Rafe appeared immensely close. We are missing a large part of this puzzle. Rafe advises us he has a close personal friendship with each of these women and a much longer one with Cindy but there was an obvious “crack” placed there. It was discussed quite some time ago that Rafe has a very keen way of socialization skills for this game and it appears that Danni’s power of social and strategic play is also well honed and I still emphatically believe she has used her skills quite well)
Danni conf: “I really feel like I can trust Rafe; well you can’t trust anyone out here but he seems to be a pretty honest guy” (Again, our themes pop up leading to...)
Danni “If I got to the final three and I know I wouldn’t win against you, I’d still take you with me and I promise you that if I somehow win the immunity, I will” (Well these words were extremely impactful. Only two ways this pans out as this comment was too good to not have prophecy. Danni is now put in the position to break her word or she stands true; however, let’s not forget Cindy’s very telling words that “by the end of this game everyone will be a liar coupled later with yet another visual noted a bit below)
Rafe (conf) “Danni’s promised me she’d take me to the final two; that’s a huge degree of security at the end of a crazy game. I think it’s definitely possible people want to get rid of Danni at this point but nothing can really change my mind about voting for Cindy....... ......comes down to my powers of persuasion but pretty sure I can convince Stephenie” (Now whether or not Rafe was, in fact, the one who ultimately convinced Stephenie, the last showing prior to Tribal Council was the attempt to convince Danni to vote out Rafe. This did not happen which may have tried to suggest that Danni was more pivotal even if Rafe really was. This would be solely designed if Danni is to outlast Rafe) Rafe “We have a better shot beating Danni in the final three and either of us will lose against Cindy in the final two because she didn’t betray anybody”
Stephenie “Yeah but now it’s another vote I won’t get...Jamie’s, Judd’s and Cindy’s IF I get to two”
Rafe “Did you make a deal with Cindy”
Stephenie “No. I told her I’m pretty sure we’d stay together” (Both Rafe and Stephenie’s hands are “dirty” on this one; we saw Rafe and Cindy at the waterfall and it was told to us by Rafe they were together for better or worse (irony again ) and we see Stephenie rationalize her idea of a “deal”) The Chiquitas Stephenie makes Cindy aware of what Rafe told her which was actually one of the smarter choices Stephenie makes. Ultimately, Stephenie does not make decisions, she is easily swayed and this season by people who knew how to make her feel she was the decision maker. Letting Cindy know however was a nice “move” to make sure that Cindy is aware that Stephenie herself was not the one instigating the charge against Cindy. Cindy (conf) “The girls will have a much better shot at winning this” (voting out Rafe) The following conversation with Stephenie, Cindy and Danni (w/ Lydia again joining the group as an afterthought) placed Danni squarely again in the middle both physically and as the key to the outcome. For someone who is hanging by a thread with no firm ties, Danni sits there to be wooed. Her summation that she was important to keep around was indeed correct. What once was vulnerable is now controlling a lot of this game. This was all about convincing Danni. We know that Rafe does not get voted out though Stephenie was certainly in favor of it so really controlled the outcome? Cindy (to Danni) “You are keeping in your strongest competition; he’s going to beat you guys in challenges and vote you out. There’s nothing he can’t do” (The following words are a voiceover by Cindy and yet again, another visually expressive situation:) Cindy “The smartest thing to do is eliminate him” Visual: (As we hear these words from Cindy, we SEE Danni who is listening to Cindy’s pitch but at the end of this sentence, Danni sharply turns her head in the direction of where Cindy is speaking) (Again, more visual manipulation in this episode. This was solely meant to solidify the potential that Danni will eliminate Rafe which combines nicely to her earlier discussion that if she won immunity, she would not get rid of him. Notice the shift is no longer on Stephenie. These events and visuals are now slowly focusing on Danni and Rafe. Danni will again be the crux of future events.) Cindy “Have all girls go the final four” (It has been said, it therefore won’t be done) Tribal Council Again, a visual wonder to behold. We hear subject matter that was present through the entire episode: lone man, “odd man out”, strength/threat (First we see upon the jury entering the notable shot of first Judd then what appears Stephenie to be looking very uncomfortable) Rafe “Four guys on the jury, I’m the last guy here, certainly feeling threatened”
Danni “I’ve been uneasy since the merge, I’m lucky to be here in the final five”
Cindy (who, no doubt, knows her time is limited) “The curse is being a strong competitor and winning things. If you are a strong competitor that is your curse. Rafe is the one we should all be concerned about.......... Visual: Immediately following that statement, the camera goes right to Danni (she continues).....we’ve seen him win challenge after challenge and people like him - there you go; complete package” The Votes
Rafe “Knew you would always vote the way the wind blows; I’m the biggest threat........the wind is blowing towards me......” (This sets up Rafe’s arc)
Lydia “I’m voting with the tribe” (This has been Lydia’s arc) Visual: Prior to the votes being read.....again.... Danni and Rafe shown to appear to be looking at each other Visual: Upon Cindy’s parting words (and quite a zing as well ) another interesting visual occurs. Cindy walks off and Jeff tells the four to go back to camp. At that time, the camera centers on Stephenie, Lydia and Rafe as a group getting up to leave; following is a solo shot of Danni who as she begins to get up to leave we see her looking in the direction of the jury.
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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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12-10-05, 03:08 PM (EST)
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53. "RE: Key comments for final 4" |
WOW, VS!
The Recap: Danni, Danni,Danni. No attempt to justify Judd's remarks. Cindy was only concerned as to how the blindsiding affected her. Danni was seen in a very positive light and noone seemed to miss Judd. In Judd's defense, he was a very loyal player and he was highly edited as a bad guy. Steph even emerged as a better sport upon the removal of Judd.The Reward: It was just nasty. Now the curse has been cursed and noone will have any incentive to ever win the car "reward". Cindy: Although I tried to keep out my emotions, I really felt bad for Cindy when she was allowed to reach a winners' high only to be dropped into a sea of guilt. I completely respect Cindy's choice to try to win on her own terms. Lydia: What can I say? Rafe: I was surprised Rafe was so bitter. I didn't buy his comment about playing too nice, I think he feeds the audience as well as the players. I believe Rafe is a fierce competitor
who has played very well and I agree the editing is no longer in his favor. I also think it sucks that the editors have made Rafe out to be a negative player over the car connundrum when really it is the producers who presented the impossible dilemma. Steph: I think Steph is finally playing with genuine class, making smart decisions and realizing the repercussions of her choices and actions. I think MB is shocked Steph has made it this far and is attempting to have us believe Steph could actually win. Danni: We are probably being primed for a blindside win. I think Danni has been instrumental in the blindsiding and it will be interesting if she brings this to light in the final TC. The Quote: Rafe; "Toughest Survivor" certainly fits in with the theme of endurance and all the subthemes of deserving, lying,etc. The Big Boys: It appeared as if Steph was attempting to smile at Judd when he entered, but Judd snubbed her and she looked very rejected. The jury seemed pleased with Cindy's choice and her exiting remarks. Final tribal should be fun, I am sure Judd will not disappoint!
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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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12-09-05, 12:22 PM (EST)
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47. "The Editing In General" |
I have disliked the editing this season.Too many of the characters have received barely any development at all until their boot episode, in which they have to essentially hog the camera in order to get their story fleshed out AND finished off in time for them to get the boot within the hour. Last night was all Cindy all the time, and she had plenty to say for herself -- I can't believe she has been silent the entire rest of the game, such that there was no material of her to use before last night. Part of me wants to give the editors credit for stylizing the editing to echo the blindsiding that players are doing -- dumping a character's whole story on us in one episode just like the players are dumping their votes on the player apparently out of the blue. I just find that the season doesn't really hang together for me as a result; there doesn't seem to be enough continuity across enough characters to make enough of them interesting. But I think in truth it's not about symbolizing the gameplay in the editing. I just think the editors have been letting the show rest on Stephenie's rumoured popularity with Average Viewers. As someone who finds Stephenie eminently dislikeable, for me this has produced a season in which I sit and stare rather glumly at the episode rather than really get into it. I just don't find it that fun to spend an hour of my Thursday night watching The Stephenie Show in which every Stephenie Moment they can wring out of the footage is crammed into the cut. The total lack of finesse in her game, and her coarseness as a character, and the fact that she is just so over-rated, are tiresome to behold in such detail week in and week out. All the other characters, except possibly Judd, have lost out because of the extreme emphasis on Stephenie. I'm sure if you're a fan of Stephenie, this is great. And if you're a Steph Hater, it makes you look forward to seeing her get beaten, so that's probably fun in its own way too. But if, like me, you're just sick of the sight of her, and fundamentally pissed off with the way "Fire Means Life" is now completely meaningless to the game of Survivor despite being its core tenet until recently, such that someone who has played far into the game a few months ago can come back armed with a totally unfair advantage, it ends up feeling like a mighty effort to sit through the show. I feel like the editors didn't even TRY to eke out a storyline for Cindy. Gary got "football liar" and that was his lot, Jamie got "paranoid weirdo" and that was him in total. Lydia remains to this day a total stranger to us. Rafe's had a bit of a storyline but only because he stumbles into Stephenie's camera shots quite a lot. Danni, if she's the winner, has had the lamest winner's edit EVER in my book. I don't feel like I know a single thing about her, and as a result I just don't care about her. So what if she comes from out of nowhere to win the game? I can't bring myself to be that impressed by it, because we've heard so little from her that she seems to me to be lucking her way into things rather than strategizing her way there. Helpful stuff seems to just happen to her out of the blue. Also, is it me, or are they being ridiculously obvious with the close-up shots? Last night, even if you didn't have a clue Cindy might be on the block, it was totally handed to you in the opening moments of the show by a close-up on her at the same time as Jeff's "Previously on Survivor" voiceover asked who'd be going home tonight. Similarly, at the end of last night's show, Lydia, Rafe and Steph were shown in a group shot getting up to get their torches, while Danni was given a solo close-up. Why are they being so heavy handed this time? Is it only us who notice stuff like that being shoved down our throats? Or is even the Average Viewer going "Jeez, do I need to bother watching the whole episode when the boot is handed to us in the precrap and they make a billboard out of one person in the closing sequence?" Grumble.
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sittem 4186 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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12-09-05, 01:18 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: The Editing In General" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-10-05 AT 05:34 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON 12-09-05 AT 01:22 PM (EST) I've got a few comments on the Steph focus. I'm not a spoiler, though I'll stop by here from time to time to enjoy the incredible insights that people have and see how they work out on Thursdays. I dislike Steph and have from the beginning. I don't want to see her or anything about her - pretty much like you. However, I think CBS looks at the average viewer - much as you stated. And when I check the CBS website and the results of the popularity votes each week, they are giving the viewer what the viewer wants - all Steph, all the time. To summarize (and anyone can check this out), Steph and Bobby Jon were the top two in popularity each and every week from week 1 through week 10. Keep in mind that when you vote, you get only one vote - your most popular Survivor. Steph and BJ received over 50% of the votes between them every week through week 9. I'm sorry about the space before you see the table - this is my first one and I don't know why it's falling so low.
Episode # | Steph | 2nd Place | Third Place | | 1st | 45% | 15% - Bj | 9% - Judd | 2nd | 46% | 10% - Bj | 7% - Gary | 3rd | 45% | 10% - BJ | 9% - Danni | 4th | 43% | 11% - BJ | 10% - Danni | 5th | 39% | 13% - BJ | 8% - Danni | 6th | 37% | 13% -BJ | 10% - Danni | 7th | 37% | 15% - BJ | 13% - Brandon | 8th | 30% | 23% - BJ | 12% - Brandon | 9th | 26% | 35% - BJ | 20% - Gary | 0th | 28% | 30% - BJ | 20% - Gary |
11th | 29% | 21% - Gary | 15% - BJ |
12th | 30% - 2nd | 31% - Danni-1st | 18% - Rafe |
Now, I do realize that editing and who's on the screen influences popularity. But, as you can see, Steph and BJ had the early lead because of recognition AND I'll bet there were some focus groups tested who ended up revelaing she'd bring great ratings. Again, I'd have been happier if she wasn't there. In fact, I think it takes away dramatically form the rest of the people early in the show. Look - through 10 episodes she and BJ get over 50% of the votes and the other 16 split the remainder - that's ridiculous. Look at the results now for the past week and the current week. Danni last week beat out Steph for the first time - 31.02% to 29.81%. So far since the show aired they are running neck and neck - 31.51% to 31.49% when I voted with Rafe running third around 17%. That leaves 21% for the rest of them to split. edited to fix the spacing - thanks for the help guys!  2002 IceCat Originals, Inc. All rights reserved.
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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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12-09-05, 04:08 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: The Editing In General" |
Sittem,I'm sorry about the space before you see the table - this is my first one and I don't know why it's falling so low. According to IceCat (when I asked him for help with my first table), the forum's software gathers all of the "spaces" within your table and reproduces them at its head. So, if you edit your table to eliminate the spaces that you have used to separate its "lines" (close it up to produce one uninterrupted block of text/code), it should "move" right back up the page. G
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-09-05, 07:37 PM (EST)
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52. "Whose gameplan will win?" |
VS , I really liked the way you focused on the visual aspects of last night’s episode which could’ve been titled : « The Scumbags Part II ». We had plenty of insight into the players, (except Lydia, but what else is new) to see who has kept focused on their gameplan and who has let the game get the better of them.First our booted player, Cindy was destined for the consolation prize ever since the editors focused on Stephenie making a point of bringing her back the coffee bag from Reward! She had played a very unemotional game not getting upset when called out by Judd and Jamie earlier on but she couldn’t keep it up until the end. She was more upset about the Judd boot and being left out of it then Judd, himself quite an emotional player, was about the Jamie boot. She was placed in an impossible situation with the car choice but made it worse when she couldn’t stop gushing over her new car. She was completely unaware of the other’s reaction. She lost focus and now is gone. Lydia’s plan was to remain under the radar. Well she has managed to take that to a new level! Even the camera can’t find her except when she is pouting after being forgotten to go with the reward winner. If it is so easy to get her vote, why waste a reward on her? With so much backstabbing this season, I’m sure Rafe and Danni won’t let her near F3 as they probably couldn’t tell what the jury thinks of her. Steph could want her as her F2 opponent but will go along since it could represent a jury vote. A tool until the end! Rafe with his “Leaders always get booted first” had told us early on that his strategy was to stay under the radar as well. At least he understood you still had to play the game. Only trouble is, he played too well physically but not enough mentally! Quite a turnaround for our intellectual! Since there were so many big boys to get rid of, he didn’t pay for putting a target on his back when he won the early immunities. He has missed the winning move however when he chose to keep Danni over Cindy. He hasn’t analyzed the game correctly. That was evident when he asked himself if he is playing too nicely. Yes he is, but not about the fact that he would’ve given the car away but because nobody wants to face him in F2. He probably thinks he can win final immunity. He better, it is his only chance despite Danni’s promise. She doesn’t need his JURY VOTE! I agree VS, we are missing part of the story to know why he “divorced” Cindy so quickly to go with Danni. I suggest that Danni listened and smiled more intently than Cindy and Rafe thought he had straighter answers from Danni. Stephenie has played a very good game. She was leader of her alliance (even if Rafe was telling her what to do!). She played the game as the Big Sister to Rafe, Judd and Jamie and the hero to Cindy and Lydia. Her best moves were when she told Jamie to wait for Judd to join them up on the ruins and then when she told Cindy of Rafe’s plan to boot her. However she also lost focus during the early merge period and she turned into the “Mean Queen” for a while. She has since gone back to encouraging everyone. She was the only one who applauded Cindy’s win even before she knew of the car choice. Can you imagine how it would have been excruciating if someone had beaten her at the wire for that immunity? She may very well loose the game by that slim a margin. How she reacts then will be a true test of character. Danni played a very focused game with no unneccesary emotions. She has managed to get into Rafe’s head (“Cindy’s our fiercest competition”?!) and into Steph’s heart (“I like Danni” and “she’s a cool chick!”). She never wasted time with Lydia and turned away from Cindy as soon as she saw that she wasn’t getting through. She did hope Gary could crack the alliance, but she didn’t waste energy or burn bridges to save him and had an alternate plan for when he failed. She busted the alliance by listening to others and smiling. She became everyone’s friend. If she wins it all, Gary will have had the winning quote when he told Rafe: “Danni can be trusted” That powerful statement was all she needed. So Gary the QB, took the hit but did complete his final pass! A woman will most probably win this season and I dare say that if it is either Danni or Stephenie, she will be the best woman winner ever!
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VolcanicGlass 428 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
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12-12-05, 00:29 AM (EST)
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54. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
Just had to pop by and congratulate you all on another outstanding season in editing analysis.Huge fan of Veruca Salt. Well done.
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vince3 17341 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-12-05, 00:56 AM (EST)
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55. "We're not worthy!!!!!!!!" |
You nailed it from the cheap seats! 
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-12-05, 04:09 AM (EST)
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56. "What the Editing left out" |
Tonight at the Finale Danni talked about allying with Rafe early on after the merge. BEFORE Gary left, because she apologized to Gary for setting up a competing alliance.Huh? Did we ever know she had formed an alliance with Rafe before we saw the clip in the Cindy ep where they made promises to each other? We had seen her talk to Rafe in the Old Camp where it seemed as if they were just putting out tentative feelers of trust and discussing booting Judd. But that was after Gary got booted. I am curious why they left that out. Were we supposed to be more worried about Danni thinking she was friendless when Gary left? Was there something duplicitous we would have disliked? CAN a winner be TOO duplicitous in this game? Would her backstabbing Rafe at the end have felt less like he handed it to her if we had seen them interact more? I feel like we missed an important part of Danni's game. Last comment on editing:
I was having a hard time recognizing Steph at the Reunion with her Married to the Mob meets Winona Judd look, then I realized what it was. Somebody edited out her eyebrows. I know they were intense eyebrows, but without them ... she doesn't look like herself. I remember on the reward with a mirror she said she looked like she had an eyebrow disorder. I think she over-reacted when she got home. Ew.
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forehead 932 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
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12-12-05, 06:10 PM (EST)
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57. "Sink or swim!" |
Wow! You've outdone yourself this season, my dear VS!Despite some editing curveballs (Gary is all about the lie, and then all of a sudden he isn't / Morgan? / Brianna? / returning players / etc.), you nailed it based on ep1. Simply outstanding. Remind me to stick with the program next season... Happy holidays,
forehead
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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-12-05, 08:36 PM (EST)
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58. "RE: Sink or swim!" |
Wow! You've outdone yourself this season, my dear VS!Ditto what forehead said, VS. You all simply AMAZE me here! I can't tell you how much I love to come and read every word! Thanks to all the peeps that love to hang out with Veruca! She's a master and she hangs with some amazing peeps!
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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
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12-13-05, 10:25 AM (EST)
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59. "RE: Sink or swim!" |
Yet another season flies by Accordingly, I'll end it with a lengthy post.forehead, I am pointing at you since we rarely saw you this season and am hoping any outside constraints will not prevent you from your posts next season VG, thank you for your very kind words and I am sure I speak for the collective that the information you provide to those who view Survivor as a minor obsession is extremely valuable. It is very easy to watch the show and make notes. It is much harder to collect all the available information and organize it for these viewers. While I tend to limit myself to everything your site supplies, without sites such as yours, valuable resources to help assist with analyzing this show (pre show interviews are immensely important) would virtually render Survivor boards useless. FP, I am thrilled how well you and your team did! Congratulations and here's to next season for you! As for everyone else who provided their amazing insight this season, I am thrilled that those who have done so regularly over the seasons continued and those who recently joined in, I am also thrilled as speculation based primarily on the editing is ONLY valuable with various thoughts. Only because I try to mull over what we gathered, I usually end with what we may have taken away to help with the FOLLOWING season and though I risk sounded somewhat ridiculous, I tend to equate it to Shakespeare's line "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrance" Survivor is quite like a story with our contestants merely a tool to help tell the STORY. The contestants who no longer have any meaning to the story exit and those who are a bigger part of the story enter. If the themes of the story appear to be readily definiable and the story is progressing as such, the players involved in that long term story should be able to be identified. The final two foil has been proven to us in quite a number of seasons to potentially be an even "larger" character than the winner. Sometimes this is meant to distract us and other times it is because that person is the contestant who is the most valuable to take at the end. We already know quite well how to flesh out the "characters" Those people are thrown at us because of some identifying personality or "shtick". It is really only how their character evolves or dissolves which tells us if they have longevity. The longer term players normally have either a consistent amount of face time or a steadying increase of face time. The long term players are usually also spoken ABOUT at some point and are shown vulnerable at some point. In other words, we don't just hear from them but we can also hear about them from other players. The long term players will tell the audience at some point and in some aspect about the end game and their strategy. Players spouting boot lists and or alliance numbers are something to be suspicious as routinely the boot list is never in that order and the numbers and people mentioned in an alliance normally does not occur.
The BOTTOM LINE is that there is NO BOTTOM LINE. Editing is adjusted every season and NOT necessarily to the audience's liking
If anyone cares to join in, I would love to hear what you feel are editing factors as well. I am, as always, looking forward to the next season and naturally am apologizing in advance for my always lengthy posts My wishes to you for a wonderful holiday season and my thanks to everyone for such great conversation and wonderful atmosphere
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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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12-13-05, 05:15 PM (EST)
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61. "RE: Sink or swim!" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-13-05 AT 05:16 PM (EST)Not much sinking going on here! Thank you, VS, for sharing your insight. The power of editing is fascinating and the bottom line to me is, no matter how we're meant to be swayed, we are swayed in different directions. I think the editing of Guatemala was brilliant, yet not necessarily fair. Many themes came full circle. In retrospect, the theme of endurance was outlined with the 11 mile hike, with Steph enduring back-to-back seasons, with Danni enduring as a lone Yaxcha, going beyond what Steph was able to accomplish, and finally with the winner winning the final endurance challenge. Anyway, well done. I've enjoyed this one-stop shop. Happy Christmas everyone!
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-13-05, 05:56 PM (EST)
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62. "Another season over. My views." |
LAST EDITED ON 12-13-05 AT 05:58 PM (EST)First of all : Congratulation VS for your excellent work in figuring out the story and the players right from the start! Thanks to your early insights, we got to appreciate Danni’s gameplay. I think she has to be considered the best woman winner ever! Many perceived her simply as an under the radar player but she didn’t coast since she made key alliances and many key decisions. Rafe started making wrong decisions when she got into his head. She mastered the social aspect of Survivor. You asked us for our analysis after the end of the show, so here goes:
This season had a tribal switch and that is the biggest variable the rules of the game can have. Team spirit needs time to build and an early switch is bad for the dominant type players. The dominant alliances survived in Borneo, Australia, Thailand, All-Star, and Palau partly because the tribes were not mixed up. (All-star’s switch was reduced to Amber changing team).
Marquesas, Amazon, Vanuatu and now Guatemala had a tribal switch and none of those series had true pagonging. (It’s not a universal rule, Africa had a switch but Lex’s alliance survived, Pearl Island didn’t, but Rupert’s alliance crumbled. Africa being the first time tribal switch occurred and PI having the Outcast tribe may explain their outcome). As soon as we hear there is going to be a switch, we can have a good indication on who we should focus as long term players. If the Switch is the biggest variable in the rules, the personnalities of the cast and how they interact is the biggest variable in the show. Through confessionals and visuals, we should focus on the players from who we get an idea of their gameplan. Then we can focus on how well they adapt it to the varying circumstances. As an example, Rafe lost the game when his athletics prowess made him think he didn’t have to stay under the radar but could very well win F3 immunity. Being overconfident made him boot Lydia and keep Danni. One of the worst decisions ever! The only thing I’ll add about the edit, is that if MB likes to tell a story over the course of the season (This isn’t a sprint but a marathon!), he likes to do so in each episode as well. Early on, it is the bootee’s show but as the season goes by, we get stories that change the focus from player to player. We had the “Vacation” where the editors wanted to make us realize how important winning a reward was for Danni’s bonding with Steph. Followed the “Changes” episode where Rafe got to have a “honeymoon” with Cindy and Judd was strategizing and almost everyone else appeared different. Then we had the “Scumbags” and the “Car decision” episodes (Scumbags part II!).
What does this mean for our analysis? I think that when the editors have a full cast of characters, (the vilains, the heros, the sweetheart, etc…) they let the story unfold and the winner will have a very consistent edit. When the vilains or the heros aren’t so well defined, then we get forced edits like Katie in Palau (where the story was over once Ulong went Solong!) or Twila in Vanuatu. That is also when they may showcase the winner more since there isn’t enough to tell for 13 episodes. I really enjoyed this season and reading this thread! Happy holidays everyone!
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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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12-14-05, 05:43 AM (EST)
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63. "RE: Sink or swim!" |
This will likely be my last post until next season, although I will stop by occasionally to check out this thread when the player profiles are officially identified.I'd like to take this opportunity to than VS for all the hard work you do, and for getting this thread started. I'd also like to thank applejack for the music analysis which came in quit handy. Lastly I'd like to thank everyone else who contributes to this thread. Before I forget, I like to wish everyone here a Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year. VS, your bottom line said it all. EPMB likes to mix it up from season to season. He doesn't want to tell the same story twice, and with a rotating cast that makes it easy. His real dilema is in How to Not tell the this story, with it's varying characters, using the same editing patern. DRONES
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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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12-21-05, 08:17 AM (EST)
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64. "RE: Alliances and Lies - The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala" |
Another “Thank You”.And another “Final Thought”. When is perception not reality? Well, before (Borneo thru Palau) … THE NOT - SO - AMAZING WRAITHS| FINAL NINE | FINAL FOUR | FINAL TWO | SOLE SURVIVOR |
|---|
| | | | | 47 WOMEN
43 MEN | 22 WOMEN
18 MEN | 11 WOMEN
9 MEN | 5 WOMEN
5 MEN | Jeff Probst said: “Danni Boatwright is also from Kansas. She's a sports radio talk show host. She's 30, a former... she's been in some beauty pageants. She's good looking. She's an attractive woman in great shape. She's an athlete. She has 6 brothers. So she comes from a strong competition background. That's one thing I've always looked out for is women who compete. Because in general guys are raised to compete, women aren't. You get toward the end of the show and more times than not the guys play the women. Women end up 5th and are happy with it. If somebody like Danni gets deep in the show she'll be a threat because she definitely gets competition. Danni is someone that I think people are probably going to get behind. She's in great shape. She's tall and she's got a competition background.” And after (Borneo thru Guatemala) … THE NOT - SO - AMAZING WRAITHS| FINAL NINE | FINAL FOUR | FINAL TWO | SOLE SURVIVOR |
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| | | | | 51 WOMEN
48 MEN | 25 WOMEN
19 MEN | 13 WOMEN
9 MEN | 6 WOMEN
5 MEN | Jeff Probst said: “Danni Boatwright is also from Kansas. She's a sports radio talk show host. She's 30, a former... she's been in some beauty pageants. She's good looking. She's an attractive woman in great shape. She's an athlete. She has 6 brothers. So she comes from a strong competition background. That's one thing I've always looked out for is women who compete. Because in general guys are raised to compete, women aren't. You get toward the end of the show and more times than not the guys play the women. Women end up 5th and are happy with it. If somebody like Danni gets deep in the show she'll be a threat because she definitely gets competition. Danni is someone that I think people are probably going to get behind. She's in great shape. She's tall and she's got a competition background.”
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-27-05, 08:25 PM (EST)
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65. "Loose ends: Things gathered here and there" |
The editing had left us with many unanswered questions. The interviews after the show gave a few of them. I thought I'd put them here to tie up loose ends. Could it help next time? I don't even know if anyone comes back here once it's over! I didn't want to start a new thread so this is the best place, I think.
1- Rafe's strategy was to boot anyone Steph could beat in F2. He was working against her so that she'd have no other choice but bring him at F2. That explains Jamie, Judd and Lydia's boots. Cindy was his first choice as F3 opponent but Gary's remark about Danni's thrustworthiness, Danni's promise and the fact he never had a true commitment from Cindy (not only the car choice!), decided her fate. Steph said she was bringing Rafe even against Lydia. 2- Cindy had learned right away that Gary had said she was as undeserving as Lydia. That and the vote he gave her is how she explained her animosity towards him. She still seemed mad during her interview! 3-Danni stopped talking to Cindy as soon as she realized that Cindy was running with the info to Rafe and Steph. I haven't heard anything why they didn't tell Cindy of the Judd boot but I suspect that this tattletale habit of Cindy's could be it. 4- Danni had an early F2 pact with Brandon and kept BJ around because she knew he wouldn't hook up with Steph and wouldn't vote for her if it came to it. 5- Danni and Rafe's main bonding happened when others were off to reward. 6- Danni coached Lydia in talking to Judd to get some dirt on him to bring back to Steph. She told them Judd was targeting Rafe because he was winning immunities. 7- Judd turned into a player because he was sure he had Jamie, BJ, Gary and Lydia's votes at final TC against Rafe, Steph or Cindy. Gary?? He seems to have been under the impression Gary would appreciate the strength he had shown. Not really convincing but what HE thought was the important thing. 8- Finally, Danni would've taken Steph even if Rafe hadn't released her from her promise. She said she had to think of her family. From his interviews, Dalton Ross from "Survivor Live" was certain Danni would still have beaten Rafe 5-2 with only Steph and Cindy voting Rafe.
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Myrla21 30 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
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01-06-06, 00:24 AM (EST)
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66. "RE: Loose ends: Things gathered here and there" |
Thank you Michel, for these comments. I missed the reunion show, and it is good to be able to read some of what happened.
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