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"Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"	10-14-05, 03:03 PM (EST)
"Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"
Especially for BR Link to our prior insights: http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/5982.shtml Oh this was such a great episode in terms of editing playing out and now that we have more tribe dynamics and impending stories, face time and so forth, we can really get to it While it appears that I went on yet another longwinded tear, I really do have more to digest and post but there were so many comments and interesting scenarios. At this point, I am interested in hearing who people are seeing at the final stomping ground. I’ve been pretty obstinate about who I see as the standout for the end and I’m not inclined to change that opinion (yet ) Fun Stuff First Steph (upon coming back from TC) “I don’t ever want to go there again” We saw initial payoff to this quote; perhaps her dark cloud has passed over for the duration? Judd “I’m feeling good about it” (regarding his vote) This is NEVER a good sign and “I hope my alliance stays the way it is... .....can’t wait until she (Margaret) goes too” Margaret (At challenge) “We’re not quitting, we’re done” Brian “Grin and bear it, that’s the strategy out here” Amy “Today, Yaxha, we’re superstars!” Brandon “You could say I won it for Yaxha but I'm not going to take all the credit......110%" Amy "When they talk about farming..... I'm the odd man out" GaryWe've got a new superstar; Kansas is loving him and so do I" (about Brandon) Brian "Amazing day, I'm on cloud nine right now" Jamie "That kid was an animal" (about Brandon) Judd"If you and Margaret ever want to step up; get one of us out of the spotlight and shine like the star you think you are" (to Cindy) Stephenie "Wanted to knock him out" (about Bobby and naturally we heard her state he was "so gay") Stephenie conf. "Jamie is so cocky; he gets his ##### beat by a 22 year old farm boy... ...I'm sick of losing, can't do this again" Lydia"Elvis may be King of Rock and Roll but I am the Queen!" Lydia conf"....will be a motivator today..." Danni "We are having a great time; we are doing great" Jamie "We are out here for a win; not smiling, we are mad right now" (at challenge) Jeff "Steph, Judd and Rafe, talking it thru.." Steph "All the way Lydia!" (at challenge) Jeff "Brandon hits the deck" Jeff"Stephenie plowed into Bobby Jon" (Thereafter, Steph smirks a bit and says "They didn't catch it") Brandon"Jamie, shut up and cut a rope!" Jeff"Brandon's got a strategy, using some leverage" (at challenge) (prophetic?) Jeff"Jamie's not giving up but not anywhere close to finishing" (prophetic?) Danni"I hate being the swing vote but unfortunately that is the way it goes sometimes" Bobby"Don't want to start going back on my word.... I know some time I will switch my vote but not now...." Brian (At TC) "If that is their (B,B,B,D) game plan, I'm sorry it is. We are good people.... if I do go, I may be victim of a minority" Bobby (At TC) "I don't like to end anyone's dream. I like to keep the dream alive" The Relationships The progession of discussions by tribemates was very interesting in terms of who respects who and who counsels who especially at the Yaxha tribe. Brian talking with Gary Brian asking about voting for Blake which Gary agrees Gary approaches BJ Bobby Jon lets us know that Gary is smart and has team unity (Bobby Jon VALUES these qualities enormously) Gary approaches Danni with Amy there Danni respects what Gary has to say; agrees and is willing to see what her "team" says Danni approaches Brandon Brandon listens but we hear that he will stick with voting for Brian (and we know Danni spoke with Bobby Jon as well in light of the voting) Gary and Danni appear to be somewhat of the power brokers in this little tribe even if it does appear that Brian is a strategic conniving force Stories Football story Seems the buildup with the football issue has came and went. It would not even surprise me if Gary divulged to Danni in private his identity. This was nice filler material but considering that Gary was in a vulnerable position last night and the "lie" did not even pop out at us once means it is no longer any issue (if it ever was) Amy's Ankle Injury is injury yet ironically her ankle was not brought up this week. If Amy does go, I'm not sure that her ankle may have to do with it. I note the previews show her being "balled over" but I'm inclined to believe as of NOW, this is nothing of consequence. Strength and Endurance The premise of the boots until now was the mantra of "keeping the strength" Those of us who have been discussing themes believe *endurance* may be the key to the ultimate victory. This week "strength" went out the proverbial window with Blake leaving. We may now see those who can "endure" as opposed to sheer, brute strength lasting. Lydia Lydia has her own story produced by Mark Burnett and company. Lydia, like Rupert, is being highlighted for all her worth. She also made commentary very early about enduring; at this point I still am not inclined as to prevailing mainly due to the fact she is getting such a wonderfully positive edit However, IF some doubt/negativity creeps in soon, I may be inclined to promote her further. Stephenie The other story showcased. "All Stephenie, all the time" *Stephenie is being created as a very solid final two foil at this time* Make no doubt, Stephenie says the things she says but confessionals of her then crying with frustration and her admitting she is jealous is also attempt to give it a bit of a soft touch with the general audience. I would not be surprised if she manages to get to the end game but falling short. MB is investing too much time in her (as a repeat player compared to Bobby it is very blatant) for her not to get incredibly far Face Time Rafe took a backseat this episode which does not signify anything of concern. In fact, many characters with longevity get significant face time and then recede a bit. Rafe did not NEED any manipulated face time This is a big editing issue that we've discussed over the seasons. When watching, if someone gets unnecessary face time is when I question the reason behind hit. Bobby Jon His face time did go up a notch. We know next week there is an issue with Jamie which was starting last night. Bobby Jon's face time was parallel to the events occurring since he was crucial in the situation of Blake leaving and we know something is going to occur next week with Jamie. Bobby Jon did not really get unnecessary face time Gary actually had a drop in face time in terms of how we have been beaten over the head about his "lie" Since this took a major backseat, again, I do not believe it is an issue (if it ever was) Brian Significant time spent regarding his observations on the tribal dynamics and strategy. Brian is a very good "character" (like Judd) and this would naturally then be showcased however, I'm not feeling very positive on him. His discussions are very one dimensional to me. Brandon and Danni Both of these individuals are visually shown quite often. Brandon was highlighted for obvious reasons, the events dictated this due to his challenge excel. He is shown quite often giving confessionals about the tribe, the weather and so forth and visually (like Danni) Mark Burnett likes him a lot. Shots are "cut" to him for really no reason as also done with Danni. Brandon is still quite an enigma to me but at this juncture, he appears to have substantial longevity. Danni has been "bumped" up a notch but obviously the events dictated this though we were left a big gap between the potential of Blake leaving and Blake actually leaving. I would love to know what happened between Bobby not breaking his word and then changing his mind; knowing Bobby as we do, and my thoughts on Danni, I feel behind the scenes, Danni may have played a much bigger role in this Cindy As discussed previously, Cindy had a little "bump" last week and we saw her discussion with Judd and her confessional. It was not anything that we wouldn't expect in the situation but considering Margaret and Cindy are both in dire straits, any increase for Cindy may actually be better. As of now Margaret's ONLY role is to be the catalyst for Judd. One then has to question if that is all she now was merely delgated to do and this does not bode well for her. At this juncture, my main concern would probably be for Brian if only for the fact that Gary and Amy's "extreme" vulnerability was shifted down and Brian's shenanigans are excelling. It stands to reason also that Gary appears to be the receipient of a healthy respect by Danni and Bobby and Danni may want to keep Amy, the only woman besides her around. Brian, therefore, may be a victim of a minority And let's not forget Jeff's statement: "The game just took a big shift"
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Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID

RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Flowerpower 10-14-05 1

   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Whole Lotta Rosie 10-14-05 2

RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... DRONES 10-15-05 3

Music and Ep. 5 applejack93 10-15-05 4

RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... emydi 10-15-05 5

   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 10-15-05 6

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Flowerpower 10-15-05 7

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... emydi 10-15-05 8

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... michel 10-15-05 10

RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Outfrontgirl 10-15-05 9

   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Outfrontgirl 10-15-05 11

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 10-15-05 12

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... michel 10-15-05 13

               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Loquatrix 10-15-05 14

                   Irony littletown 10-16-05 15

                       RE: Irony emydi 10-16-05 16

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... DRONES 10-16-05 17

               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Surviette 10-17-05 19

RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Miscreation 10-17-05 18

   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 10-17-05 20

       RE: Big Shifts-Nash Equilibrium Whole Lotta Rosie 10-17-05 21

           RE: Big Shifts-Nash Equilibrium Flowerpower 10-17-05 22

           RE: Big Shifts-Nash Equilibrium emydi 10-18-05 23

Nash Theory and Guatemala KObrien_fan 10-18-05 24

   RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala Rasta 10-18-05 25

       RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala VerucaSalt 10-18-05 26

           RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala Rasta 10-18-05 29

               RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala Brownroach 10-18-05 31

       RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala Whole Lotta Rosie 10-18-05 27

   RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala Flowerpower 10-18-05 28

   RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala emydi 10-18-05 30

       RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala KObrien_fan 10-18-05 32

   RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala applejack93 10-18-05 33

       RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala michel 10-18-05 34

       RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala KObrien_fan 10-18-05 35

A different take on Steph/ Danni King Will 10-19-05 36

   RE: A different take on Steph/ Dann... VerucaSalt 10-19-05 37

   RE: A different take on Steph/ Dann... Surviette 10-19-05 38

RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Outfrontgirl 10-21-05 39

   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 10-21-05 40

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Outfrontgirl 10-21-05 41

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Whole Lotta Rosie 10-21-05 42

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Flowerpower 10-21-05 43

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 10-24-05 64

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... DRONES 10-21-05 44

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 10-21-05 45

               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Outfrontgirl 10-21-05 48

A question for the Esteemed Editing... Loquatrix 10-21-05 46

   RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... Outfrontgirl 10-21-05 47

       What happens next? michel 10-22-05 49

           RE: What happens next? echogirl 10-22-05 50

               RE: What happens next? michel 10-22-05 52

                   RE: What happens next? echogirl 10-22-05 53

               RE: What happens next? Flowerpower 10-22-05 54

   RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... DRONES 10-22-05 51

       RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... VerucaSalt 10-22-05 55

           RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... Brownroach 10-24-05 57

       RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... mimo 10-22-05 56

           RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... Surviette 10-24-05 58

               RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... michel 10-24-05 59

                   RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... Brownroach 10-24-05 60

                   RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... Surviette 10-24-05 62

                   RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... Flowerpower 10-26-05 68

                       RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... Surviette 10-26-05 69

                           RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... Rasta 10-26-05 72

       RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... architecturegirl 10-24-05 61

           RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... architecturegirl 10-24-05 63

               RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... VerucaSalt 10-24-05 65

                   RE: A question for the Esteemed Edi... architecturegirl 10-25-05 66

Music and episode 6 applejack93 10-25-05 67

   RE: Music and episode 6 Flowerpower 10-26-05 70

       RE: Music and episode 6 Whole Lotta Rosie 10-26-05 73

       RE: Music and episode 6 applejack93 10-26-05 75

   RE: Music and episode 6 Rasta 10-26-05 71

       RE: Music and episode 6 VerucaSalt 10-26-05 74

           RE: Music and episode 6 applejack93 10-26-05 76

           RE: Music and episode 6 Loquatrix 10-26-05 77

Ep 7 I have a dream...to be on the... emydi 10-28-05 78

   RE: Ep 7 I have a dream...to be on... Surviette 10-28-05 79

RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... kingfish 10-28-05 80

   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 10-28-05 81

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... michel 10-28-05 82

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Surviette 10-29-05 83

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 10-30-05 84

               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Georgianna 10-30-05 85

                   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Flowerpower 10-31-05 86

                       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... michel 10-31-05 87

                           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... MDSkinner 10-31-05 91

                               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Quiddity99 10-31-05 92

                                   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... MDSkinner 11-01-05 101

                       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Georgianna 11-01-05 102

                   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Loquatrix 10-31-05 88

                       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Georgianna 10-31-05 90

                           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Loquatrix 10-31-05 95

                               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Georgianna 11-01-05 98

               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... architecturegirl 10-31-05 89

                   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... applejack93 10-31-05 94

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... applejack93 10-31-05 93

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Loquatrix 10-31-05 96

               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... applejack93 10-31-05 97

               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... mimo 11-01-05 100

       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... DRONES 11-01-05 99

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... architecturegirl 11-01-05 103

           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... mockingbird 11-01-05 104

               RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 11-01-05 105

                   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... emydi 11-01-05 106

                   RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... michel 11-01-05 107

                       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... DRONES 11-02-05 108

                       RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... Surviette 11-02-05 109

                           RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Gam... VerucaSalt 11-02-05 110

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-14-05, 04:21 PM (EST)

1. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Let me be one of the first to congratulate you on your choice for bootee last night VS....you stuck to your guns and as always, you were right on! I definately admire your collective genious over here, perhaps that's why I hang around...hoping that some of it rubs off on me!
Your comments on the cast are right on the mark, imo! One thing that I've noticed is the real animosity that the two tribes are developing for each other. Actually I think it is really stemming from Steph, Jamie, and Judd. Judd is turning into a real creep, if you ask me. He and Jamie seem to be feeding off each other. Stephenie can't stand to see BJ win, she's jealous and now she's taken to name calling and pettiness....definately a very negative sign of her. And her incessant whining is making me sick....it's everyone's fault but her own, she's taken a serious negative turn, imo. Definately I see her as the F2 foil. I don't know if she has any real strategy whatsoever other than staying strong to win the challenges. Will she go farther with the bullies on her tribe or will she turn on them?
Judd is not playing the social game at all...it's all about him. He seems to hate it out there and he is only there to win the million dollars and he doesn't have to be nice to anyone to get there....well, if he's not playing the social game, he'll be toast and I think sooner rather than later. If I were Cindy, when he told me to step up and be the star that she thinks she is, I would have slapped him! He's a serious bully, imo.
Then there is his partner in crime, Jamie. He lost the challenge for them, he said he's sorry, then he won the IC and was IN THEIR FACE. He's seems quite provoking. I'm sure in the next RC when he and BJ come together, that somehow Jamie provokes BJ again.....Jamie is out of control if you ask me. And why am I defensive of BJ? I see BJ as being true to the same character that he portrayed last season. Hard worker and hard challenge player. Why can't Steph remember that BJ lost the same amount of challenges that she did....why can't she say something positive?
Gary and Danni indeed have a regard for each other. I see Gary as carrying off the paternal figure at Yaxha well, at this point, and I agree, the football lie seems to be a dead issue. I really find myself liking Brandon more and more as the season progresses. He gets along well with others, and is extremely competitive, and I'm even loving his confessional commentaries. He is certainly a loyal one.
Cindy still seems to be getting little face time, but I see her as a very strong competitor as well. There seems to be alot more to her, and I hope that we see it. It's obvious that Judd does not have any regard for her however.
Well, keep up the great work everyone!

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-14-05, 06:57 PM (EST)

2. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

VS/BR thank you for the new thread. New threads are like clean sheets.
Nice job with Blake last week, it is good to know that editing is still relevant. I know the short term is not your thing, but it never hurts to be right.
Looking long term I continue to like Brandon, Danni, and Rafe. They are all receiving a lot of face time and appear to be more multi-dimensional characters.
There is definitely a triangle developing between Steph, BJ, and Jamie. Because they are in opposite tribes, I expect this will last until the merge. This isn’t too surprising; all three have exhibited some form of longevity. I agree with VS that Steph is emerging as a favorite for the runner up spot and not only because I mentioned it last week. Her editing has been, by far, the most complex of the contestants this year and I think it took a bit of a negative turn last week. Considering her past experience and where she may be going, this would be expected if she were to go far. Steph will most likely be the end for both BJ and Jamie but it should play out mid-game.
I am really beginning to like Lydia. I actually thought her little team-building outburst was quite funny. More importantly I thought her team did. My impression was when she began her, whatever, the tribe appeared a bit agitated by her antics, but they seemed to warm to her as she went along. She gets a ton a face time and it is always positive. I am sure we will get to the Nash stuff later this week but I think she is well positioned in this tribe.
Cindy still intrigues me. She is a borderline narrator, but, as I think, VS noted earlier, she doesn’t really say anything. When Judd issued her and, by proxy, Margaret the challenge, it was Cindy who received the confessional, but Margaret who stepped up in the challenge. These three players are intertwined and I am not sure how this will play out. With the most recent focus on Margaret and Judd, Cindy, playing UTR, may outlast both.
As for GAB, by process of elimination only one, or, at best, two, will make the merge. This isn’t terribly surprising, as none of these players and established long term edits.
I am not as convinced with VS that the Gary’s football lie has been completely swept under the rug. This was a primary story for four-weeks, and I have difficulty believing that it is just gone. Considering the boot pattern this year, I would not be surprised that it rears its ugly head next week. Brian and Amy are the only two original Yaxha members to have commented on the ruse, and they will be targets. However, Gary’s edit did, shift , this week, and in a very positive manner (check out VS & FP for the goods). Should he make it through next week, and his story continue to develop, I could see him lasting quite a while.
I agree with VS on Amy, if and when she gets booted, it will have nothing to do with her injury, she will be a casualty, like Margaret. We do like her, but she does not have a long-term story. However, she getting enough of an edit that it wouldn’t surprise me that if Gary and Brian are targeted, or there is some sort of a switch, she could sneak through a couple of weeks.
I hate to say this, but I am actually beginning to like Brian. I just don’t know if that is MB’s intention. I can’t believe it is. From a Nash perspective, he is an exceptional game player, especially considering the number of leaders this year Lydia saved herself on his suggestion and Gary talked Danni into voting off Blake, again on his suggestion. But, as VS said, this is his only dimension. I am willing to concede that he may not have any long-term potential but he is one of those classic post-merge pre-jury boots like Rob M, Coby, and Jeff V.
I do think either Brian or Judd will make the merge, but not both. They have both had similar character development even though they are playing the game different. As I have stated, of which I admit, I am biased, Brian has slightly more longevity.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-15-05, 01:03 AM (EST)

3. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Yes Jeff, the game did take a big shift, in more ways than one.
Steph's edit continues to be slightly negative. She spends a lot of time complaining and making snarky comments, but what really stands out to me is her blaming circumstances for being on the losing tribe. I was also struck by her comment regarding BJ, considering it was BJ's vote in the last season that saved her from going home instead of Ibe. Which leads me too....
Congrats to VS for sticking to your Blake vote. It should be of know surprise to anybody that BJ would switch his vote. BJ is who he is, a very emotional player who values strength and leadership. Remember his positive comments last season about Tom. Which brings me to....
Gary, who's character took a decided shift this week with not a word mentioned, for the first time this season, of this lie. Instead, we get the very strategic player who really used the soft touch to help turn BJ and Danni. It is always difficult to try and turn someone from their alliance, so kudos to Gary for doing what few others have succeeded in doing. Which brings me to....
Dani, who just keeps popping up on my radar, and tv screen. She is always shown in the mix yet we do not hear a lot from her in regard to strategy. Danni made a comment about maturity? I thought at the time that there was no reason for this comment, other than to let us know that Dani not only understands the importance of the social aspects of the game. This comment may have also been left in there because EPMB wants us to know that Dani is no Jenna.
BJ, Judd and Jamie all seem to be taking up the same space in editing. We know that BJ does not have the same type of ego as Jamie and Judd, yet there he is being portrayed in all his rage. These three are going to be kept around until they are no longer necessary.
Rafe is the lone remaining player that I still don't have a handle on.
Cindy and Margaret are in the same boat. Margaret is being given a harsher edit than Cindy(her reaction to Judd's comments made me feel sorry for her, like she was being picked on) and this should be of particular note for which one goes first.
Brian is an interesting character. His baiting Blake comment was funny, yet it was also shown to be a factor in Blake being booted(although I doubt it played as much of role as we were shown). With Blake gone now, Brian seems to be most vulnerable. Which brings me to....
Amy who after not having a word mentioned of her injury will once again next week be the focus of an injury. How long can this go on before she is booted?
I can see why EPMB keeps showing us Lydia. She is a definate character, yet I don't find her annoying at all. We have heard this many times before in previous Survivors, that if someone can make you laugh they remain off the radar. This is what appears to have happened to Lydia. Her biggest challange is going to be making it the merge, as this season has been dangerous for those that are viewed as weak. Although, I find Jeff's final comment to be positive one in regards to her.

DRONES

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-15-05, 02:42 AM (EST)

4. "Music and Ep. 5"

LAST EDITED ON 10-15-05 AT 02:48 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 10-15-05 AT 02:46 AM (EST)
Might I just say in regards to next week -

=
"As the two male sea lions fight for their territory on the beach, the harem of females looks on..."
God this season is good. I really like it. One more musical rule to add after this episode:
A chorus of strings = sincerity (although, really, when HASN'T that been the case...
THe show opens with a GONG - this reminded me, for some beginning, of the beginning of a Musical - very grand and ostentacious. The episode was GREAT thought, and the Gong heralded it's arrival.
A few chops and changes occured in the music this episode. You'll remember how for a couple of episodes now, I have said that tuned percussion is positive and woodwind is negative? Well, this episode they mixed it up a bit.
When we were shown Nakum returning from TC, we heard a low and slightly chromatic motif in the Marimba which signified that all was not well between Marg and Judd. Low drums accompanied this, however it stopped after a little while and the theme settled back into drums with odd sound effects showing tension yada yada yada. Anyway, I don't know why the composers, after using the Marimba so effectively and so consistently as an instrument of positive connotations, would suddenly make it negative... Hmm... perhaps to show one of the people involved in the argument as ethically justified? I don't know. If so, it would be Margaret shown justified - Judd just doesn't cut it for me or anyone I know...
Then, when we first saw Yaxha they did the reverse to us - the woodwind instruments (which have consistently been used for negative instances) popped up in Blake's little talk at the beginning about how good he feels. I know alot of us believe that this was just foreshadowing of Blake's downfall, and the music reflected this. There was an essentially very positive musical theme behind this section, wherein lied a very noticeable part of a woodwind instrument - something that our ears have learnt to recognise as negative. In terms of music - Blake was doomed from the beginning.
Now, next we go to Amy's flitting around with the Beetle. The music was VERY positive, with the Marimba being used to add a certain quirk to it. I think everyone on her tribe loves Amy - she's very personable and naive enough for it to be cute. I think we may have misjudged her in the beginning - I'm not saying that she is an end-game player, but she certainly isn't the irritant we suspected. I think, and don't quote me, that she may be an early jury boot, simply because nothing in the editing says to me that people don't like her. We'll see how she goes with next week's injury.
Then, when we saw 'the boys' talking about farming we had a neat little musical theme whipped out of one of the composers back pocket. We HEARD hillbilly music - banjo's, guitars - all very country sounding. We probably won't hear this theme again (cos it was a very circumstantial theme) but it is interesting that it made me think Yaxha was a 'Hick' team, especially with Brian's confessional about how he's the only 'blue-state' boy there... I think Yaxha is a little naive...
Musically, the challenges are a little boring for me, but I will say that there was ALOT of time spent on explaining the reward and the challenge, and that at one point there were chimes used to give it an almost mystical sound... I don't think that meant much though, it just distracted me.
Now, interestingly, when Jamie lost there were plenty of Strings, infact, most of post-RC Nakum was taken up with some sort of tragic Volin playing (or Guatamalan equivalent thereof). There were strings when Jamie lost (which made Steph's comment about 'we lost' or something sound very harsh), there were strings when Jamie had his confessional about losing. We spoilers all saw through this as BS, but to the average viewer this section would have seemed sincere and upsetting (my Girlfriend, who has nothing to do with the spoilers said this was a sad episode because of Jamie and Steph). I think this softened Jamie, and I think he as a very 3-D character.
StepheME, too, got the Mayan equivalent of a screeching Violin in her 'boo-hoo' confessional. There was no melody, just soft, mournful percussion. We are MEANT to feel sorry for Steph at this point, it's comments like her one to Jamie at the RC and her one about BJ souding 'gay' that give her a nasty side... Steph is there fore a while, she is very important this season.
Also, the music made me HATE Judd when he bullied Cindy. The drum beats were threatening and syncopated, and there were harmonics being played (I don't know on what though) that gave it a horribly menacing feel. I think that this was invested in so that we could see Jdd have his downfall, and after last night I think Cindy will outlast him ultimately.
One little note - the music when Yaxha returned after the RC was really strange, there was a slightly out of tune woodwind instrument playing very rapidly and very highly. It was a little off-putting, to me, but I think it was meant to sound happy and joyous.
At the beginning of the storm you may have noticed a fantastic vocal solo by a man? The whole storm experience was a little spiritual.
After the storm we come to the realisation that Blake is a tosser. The music almost made fun of Blake - I can't explain it but if you listen to it you'll find it really did. I got the idea in my head - "Pfft, stupid Blake".
Another interesting thing about Lydia - we would have loved Lydia even if we didn't have the music there. The music is ALWAYS supplementary to what we see, and here is a great example. THe Marimba was fast and staccato, the percussion was playing great beats - it made me really love Lydia.
One last thing (as after the IC the music slipped back into it's usual post IC mode) - after TC last week, some very determined-sounding drums came in when we saw Nakum leaving TC. This was largely because Nakum was DETERMINED to turn their fortune (or at least Steph's fortune) around. This week there were no such drums. I think this says something about the state of the two tribes
- Nakum, whilst having tension, is determined to succeed.
- Yaxha, whilst being equally determined, doesn't need this determination to succeed.

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-15-05, 10:16 AM (EST)

5. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Thanks guys for your great insights...AJ you amaze me I can't keep the dialogue straight and you do this with the music absolutely terrific work!!
Ok here we go..onto my insights, or lack thereof:
NuYaxha
Good work VS on Blake, I thought it was one more week they needed to get irritated by Blake's stories. Danni and BJ are very impressionable and were swayed by Gary and his dad like charm-- when all they had to do was keep on track with the 4 OldNakum....BJ may have finally found his mentor that he wanted in Palau...Gary is a man among men in Guatemala.
Also, based on the football issue...I think it's on the back burner (for now). I agree with Rosie, why put all that time into it…I still see him as Sarge and an early post merge boot and not Tom.
Brian--I was surprised he did not do more of the convincing...maybe he felt Gary was more likely to convince Danni and BJ because he was older. Or maybe he wanted someone to do the “dirty” work. But this may not help him in long run bc Danni and Bj will gravitate towards Gary as the person that changed them and will not get rid of him before Brian imo. I think you are right VS, his is a one dimensional edit, not an edit that Rob C got...his was more positive with the funny person-self depracating edit and we were given reason to like him and root for him (that’s how I saw it anyway); whereas Brian is being shown just as the stuck up New Englander who connives behind the scenes...Like Rosie.. though I see him sticking around for a while...depending on what happens with the immunity and double boot ep. I don't think he goes long term but he has some time left, imho, if it is nothing else than I would like to see him stick around to shake things up. Although, Gary could cut him loose now that he has the in with Danni and BJ.
Brandon...I really do like him but I cannot figure out his edit. I would say he has a winner’s edit…but I see a woman winning this. I don’t see him as the F2 foil either…he has not been seen as negative. I want to see how he handles the last TC this week…what will he say to Danni/Bj and/or to us in a confessional? Will he ever step up and strategize, I’ve been waiting for it…let’s hope they don’t boot him for his Brian vote, but I doubt they will as I see BJ and Danni and Gary for that matter sticking with Brandon…I think after the merge is when he has to step up or he will be seen too much of a threat to go on an immunity run, esp. if the challenge involves cutting rope
Amy—I don’t see her edit as long term……I’m not sure what the knee injury will do, will it just be more juxtaposition btw Guat and Palau? or will it finally be her downfall... but Gary may also cut her loose, although I see him keeping Amy before Brian.
Danni—unfortunately, for me she has the winner’s edit. I don't like her...she reminds me (her personality not her challenge) of Katie for some reason...she rubs me the wrong way. I didn’t buy the whole “I hate frat guys” speech…she has been a guest at more than a few frat parties… I agree, she loves the attn. of being the swing vote….she won’t be as indecisive though and this will help her.
BJ—well that boy really needs a father…I wonder what his relationship with his real father is like, if he has one at all. I don’t see him having the game to get much farther than early post merge boot… I agree VS Steph and his edits are very different and EPMB has not invested as much into BJ. I want to see his showdown with Jamie tho, looks like it will be funny, if nothing else…and I don’t think it will mean anything to the boots next week. It will be seen as two strong males marking their territories…nice pic AJ!!
NuNakum
Judd--what a buffoon and baboon!! He tears into both Margaret and Cindy unnecessarily..he says he doesn't care who likes him except his family..he cannot wait until Margaret is gone. I hope this means he goes first but I don't think so based on Margaret's edit since Ep. 1. In Ep. 1 she screamed winner to me...but that has changed, unfortunately. I see his so called “strength” getting him to merge time or so…
Another thing Judd is is a hypocrite...or just not very consistent. After TC it's every man for himself but in a conf. after Jamie's loss at RC, he said they are a team and you can't blame any one person...this was just bc it was his friend Jamie as the fall guy.
Jamie…his edit is bothering me…he’s this sullen person who wants to win and won’t quit but then also is a loud mouth after the IC…I just don’t see him as long term and he goes into my group of guys that get booted round merge time, imho.
Margaret…well, she HAD a good edit and that may be because she was used in Blake’s one dimensional edit of ME ME ME as the doting nurse and mom figure. But now that Old Nakum is gone (Brooke out Blake out Judd to Yaxha) she will go down too. It's funny that she has become the one that wants Nakum to stick together but Cindy got best school spirit for Nakum in Ep. 4.
Cindy…now she is also an edit I don’t understand..I think something will happen soon that will let Cindy step up and win something, maybe even Ind. Imm. in Ep. 6. I see her as long term…as a winner, possibly, but I’m still waiting. She could just be the Jenn/Darrah F4 person. She def. outlasts Judd.
Steph..ok I agree guys she is F2 foil material…esp. after that whine fest and “my heart is breaking speech” I almost hurled. Also the "gay" comment was horrible...see Corvis' statement on this Survivor thoughts from Iowa Blog...
Rafe…Ian-edit, nuff said
Lydia…well, I think she is the Rupert/S10Steph of this season…EPMB will get as much out of her as he can…but I don’t see her winning this…she’ll go mid jury imho. when she is no longer needed for a vote by Steph and Rafe

using my PM lost siggie bc I am still Lost this season w/ a lot of the editing!

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-15-05, 12:27 PM (EST)

6. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

I was anxiously awaiting for people to pipe in because I do think this episode was a defining moment in the show attempting to gain specific feelings about the characters. Everyone seems to have a great focus on most of these people and we seem to narrowing down the longer term players. The seals and Bobby and Jamie are VERY appropriate
We know that there are characters there merely to be showcased, characters that we are meant to dislike and other characters that we question what is going on with them. Those types are the ones that we should focus on as they are more likely to stand the test of Survivor time. I did ask certain viewers thoughts on these people for immediate reactions and it was pretty uniform across.
fp there is no question that there is a level of animosity between these tribes as you stated. This makes perhaps what Judd and Danni/Bobby did perhaps a little more understandable in its context (I'll get to that later)
rosie I too like Brian When I asked people about him they said they didn't like him before but they do now. That is an interesting situation but when pressed for specifics they didn't like what he said about Lydia (after "saving" her) and his arrogance about him. How will he behave after this latest development and how much credit will he give HIMSELF? That to me is integral on how short his stay is.
I understand your thoughts on Gary's story since it was such a major situtation for them to just drop. For me it is only a feeling. Perhaps because Gary is a professional athlete with a following (fans of his old team, sportscasters, etc.) the editors wanted to give it its ALL even if it didn't produce any consequences. That remains to be seen but your suspicion could be correct.
I see that Stephenie has certainly made a continuing negative impression and the "funny" thing about this is that I am willing to empathize with her situation considering this is a very long and probably upsetting process for her. Consider being on TWO stretches of Survivor and constantly losing and giving her the benefit that she isn't a "slacker" Yet the editing is determined to show an abrasive side to her that can only make us presume that Mark Burnett is going to come up short with her.
Judd is engineering negative reaction as well which is directed mostly to Cindy and Margaret. Since Cindy appears to be building up to something (I still see her more as longevity based on journey than winning but only my perception ) and Margaret's edit is really now just a the foe for Judd (with nothing subsantial behind it; again the nursing situation was due to events only) it stands to reason that Cindy should win out over Judd since we are meant to dislike Judd and feel "sorry" for Margaret and Cindy. aj, apparently the music is establishing this as well based on your astute comments
Jamie as everyone is discussing is a strange character indeed. He had some very sympathetic moments; taking responsibility for his actions yet he was seen in opposition to Bobby, who appears to be edited (again) as a sympathetic, nice character. This doesn't then bode well for Jamie's longevity. The fact that one may have felt bad for Jamie after Stephenie was somewhat nasty about losing is probably MORE about twisting Stephenie's character than boosting Jamie's.

Lydia as already stated is bringing out love from a lot of people. She even made Judd and Jamie smile! Unless Mark Burnett has taken a major turn in editing the winner, Lydia is too good to be the winner. I want to see some doubt about Lydia (not in terms of booting but in terms of personality) and then she may be boosted a bit further in the standings
Rafe is a typical long term person. He speaks of tribe dynamics, environment and he is situated with longer term players.
Brandon seems to be a favorite among people which I can understand If I were to believe a man would win this, his edit could suggest it but since this has a woman feel to me, I won't second guess that for now. Brandon is asked A LOT of questions (based on how he answers his confessionals) and most people I asked think he has something interesting about him and I see all of you appear to agree with this
DRONES I feel that way about Amy as well. The ankle situation took up a lot of Amy; symbolically it represented everything that Amy is and Jeff from last season wasn't which may be why it was made into such a "big deal"
emy I'm interested in your negativity towards Danni I haven't quite heard from those I asked that they "disliked" Danni; more that they haven't formed an impression yet. I'm actually a little pleased you feel this way since obviously she elicited some negativity; that is actually a good thing.
There has been quite a reaction that Danni and Bobby acted without any strategic intelligence in their decision and I had mentioned in the vote thread last week there may have been more to this decision and I will reserve judgement on Danni's decision (because I believe she had more to do with this than Bobby) until I see more
Am looking forward to more insight everyone!

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-15-05, 04:01 PM (EST)

7. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 10-15-05 AT 08:54 PM (EST)
Great comments VS, Rosie, Drones, emy, and of course AJ! I wanted to jump in because I wasn't so thrilled with Danni either. She was very quick to abandon her old tribe mate Blake, and while she was nice to him, she spoke badly about him....I do see her under the spell of Gary as well....is she a groupie? She spoke about Blake's contribution to the challenges, yet values harmony at camp more...Is she a religious snob, looking down her nose at others that perhaps don't share her beliefs? She even noted that Blake was young and immature. I just find myself not liking her as much, the more that we are shown from her.
Another thing I wanted to comment about was indeed the Judd vs. Margaret editing. Maybe I think too much about this show, what is shown and what is not, and I try to think about "what I would do" in the setting.....here's what I keep coming up with. I know Steph wants to win and preserve strength at all costs....but, I really think that Rafe has her back and her ear. We know that Jamie was gunning for Steph in the early show, and we know that Steph is aware of it. If I were Steph I would NOT forget this...Now, at new Nakum Jamie has a new best buddy, Judd. I would be quite weary of Jamie, and my red flags would be flying high, now that he has a strong supporter. I know I would consider these two extremely threatening to my personal game. Now, Steph would have numbers by incorporating the two with their two cornered tribemates, Margaret and Cindy. It's logical that these two would go to Steph/Rafe and plead for their survivor lives. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that Margaret is the most threatened over at Nakum...I see Judd/Jamie backing themselves into the corner with their bullying and ostrasizing of their tribemates.....I see a viable option for Steph and Margaret...with one of the two big bullies likely to win an II this coming week, I see the other as a huge target....am I way off here, or does the editing clearly point to a Margaret as mostly likely to be the bootee choice?
If Steph was alone I know she would opt to keep the strength at this point, but she has the knowledgable survivor player Rafe with her, who I'm sure is into discussing possible strategies and choices...Very curious as to your collective thoughts...
fp

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-15-05, 06:22 PM (EST)

8. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

I haven't liked Danni since the beginning VS She just rubbed me the wrong way like Katie did. I still think she has a winner's edit. Figures another winner I don't like, hmmppff..and not F2 foil, but I would like to see Cindy's edit over the next few weeks to see what comes of it...her and Brandon's...I too am stubborn that it is a woman this time.
FP...I have been perplexed with the Jamie/Judd/Margaret choice for the last 2 eps. but after Ep. 5 I think for nos. and strength now at 13 or 12.. I don't see Steph committing to off them yet even if Rafe is talking about it to her. I see her going after the easy target Margaret and then work to get off J/J closer to merge...they will be seen as targets then anyway. I'm not sure about them winning II either??? We don't even know what the competition is, how many people get it or how it is chosen. But the confrontation btw Judd and Cindy in Ep. 5 may have been a set up for some (you know what word I am going to use here)....IRONY in ep.6. Cindy finally steps up and wins II!!! She sure is featured all over the vidcaps and that close up of her nostril is weird...
What I am trying to figure out is when the merge comes who will hook up with whom..
Let's assume the merge is at 10...for old time's sake That means 3 more boots-2 from one tribe and 1 from the other..I think either Brian/Amy go this week from NuYaxha and Margaret is gone from NuNakum..
Ep. 7...not knowing about the challenges, etc. based on editing thus far it will either be one of JJ on Nakum if they go or the other of Brian/Amy.
So let's assume Amy Margaret and Jamie go based on editing...
You have at merge:
Danni
BJ
Brandon
Gary
Brian
Steph
Rafe
Lydia
Judd
Cindy

So you have 2 groups of 3 the Main alliances from the old tribes with 2 "stragglers" Gary will go with DBB and I think so will Cindy but I see her more as a wild card Judd stays with SRL and I think Brian is a floater--Rob C wannabe. You also have Danni as a potential change vote too.
I think at that point the 4 strong guys will go Gary/BJ/Judd/Brandon based on editing and likely II threats.
So at 6 you are left with Steph Lydia Rafe and Danni Cindy Brian....with Steph Rafe Brian and Danni as the "playas" unless Cindy steps up in the next few weeks. Lydia is not a "playa" she just really is too good to win.
So conceivably you could have a F4 of Danni Steph Rafe and Brian... Brian and Steph are potential F2 foils...Rafe has got F3 too nice edit all over him. and Danni...blech....
I need to see Brian's edit too...bc he's either F4 or premerge imo...not in btw....will he be victim of minority like VS noted?? and Cindy...that's who I'm watching these next few weeks!

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-15-05, 06:38 PM (EST)

10. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

First, great comments everyone. This thread is a must read for any survivor fan! ( AJ, I tried to focus more on the music and up to the banjo playing, I could read your comments and agree with them. Then the challenges started and my eyes overtook my ears and everything else you wrote, I missed. I should tape the shows, shouldn't I?)
Since I thought Blake was safe last week (congratulation on your vote VS!), I don't know if I have a good grasp of what's going on, but since you asked for our impressions as to players longevity, here goes: As final 4 candidates, I still see Stephenie, Rafe and Dani receiving the stronger edits but as with everything else, that changed a bit during the last episode.
In STEPHENIE's case, she needs to control the voting and being so emotional could hurt. Contrary to FP, I don't think she has to worry about Judd and Jaime yet as she has numbers with Rafe and Lydia against them and Judd could never get Margaret and Cindy back. They will be dealt with after merge when Steph hooks back with Gary. Margaret is next to go.
RAFE is really staying under radar and can easily make it to the end especially against so many Sea Lions!!
DANI was also my choice for winner as I thought she was playing very strategically and not letting emotions interfere. Blake's boot however was emotional. She trusts Gary but how will that play out? To keep that trust, which can only help him down the road, Gary will probably have to boot Amy or Brian next week. Since Amy is probably misdirection, I think Brian is in grave danger. How the next boot turns out should let us know how long she stays.
Now, I'm missing the 4th ace! My top contender is CINDY. I really liked how she stayed out of Judd and Margaret's fight, how she just let Judd go on with his abuse. Shutting up and not letting emotions surface surely seems her gameplan. Now can she make it to the merge? She is stronger than we thought. Did you notice her running up the steps 3x3 at TC?
Another possibility now is GARY. We finally saw Gary playing the game and he could build a strong alliance with Dani, Brandon, Steph and Rafe but I see him leaving aroung F5 or F6.
Lastly, as I stated before, if she makes the merge in place of Cindy, LYDIA could very well be in F4.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-15-05, 06:37 PM (EST)

9. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

I feel shy about posting anything in this thread because I haven't studied editing patterns like you all. I have some gut feelings, combined with a sense of how the game might go due to the groups that are emerging and the post-swap dynamics.
Brandon My sense of Brandon is he's a very likeable character who produces great confessional material and will be used for that until he's gone. A Varner and a better version of our redneck James from Palau. We will be sorry when he leaves, and so will the editors. His future in the game is dubious because he isn't in a great position and he didn't do the best negotiating last night and he's strong, so a target. I see him as a merge or just past merge boot, due to the fact that Nakum will come into the merge at an advantage and vote together, and will likely have gathered Cindi into their fold--Cindi who was not cultivated by the BB boys.
In short--positive edit so we are sorry when game dynamics take him out.
Danni I see someone we are supposed to admire because she can play sports, someone who will stealth through the alpha-male elimination and then maybe go on an immunity run. I see her as a Kelly Wigglesworth type. It doesn't matter if you like her, she ensures she gets the job done by keeping herself safe. Of course this immunity run idea is pure spec on my part. We have not seen Danni and Steph on a team yet and it may be that they form an alliance.
Margaret I had decided she was toast if Nakum went last week and now I think she's total toast. She was shown failing to take the shift of the game in stride. First, she should have been schmoozing the new guys just in case and instead went off to rally her old tribesmates. She isolated herself. Second when Judd turned she attacked him instead of protecting herself upon finding herself in a minority. Margaret's edit has shown her to be inflexible and to make poor game choices like hovering over Blake. The bossy about the shelter edit put her in the company of older women like Patricia of S4 who played Mom in a way that alienated the young bucks. Personally I sympathize with her but I think she's going down in this company and that Judd will do her in.
Judd The guy we are going to HATE this season. The guy who gets people to watch the show so they can have the pleasure of seeing him booted, every week ... and then hope it's next week. The guy who gets brought along because he's a big lug and then is needed as a number for awhile. When he is not needed any more he will be disposed of and he will be pissed. He will be needed longer than he is wanted.
Brian A highly entertaining game-player who simply got the short end of the swap stick. He ended up with a bunch of jocks in a season where it's been muscles/sports ability that has value rather than puzzle-solving. In a former season where most team challenges had a puzzle component, I think Brian would have had a niche, but in Guatemala his physical slightness and East Coast educated background will be his demise. My gut says he goes this next week and many people will be sorry to see him go and not get to show his stuff in the post-merge game. I would like to be wrong on this.
Cindy A likeable dark horse who I think goes far. Unlike Zoe, Cindy gets confessionals. Right now her position is precarious, but if Nakum keeps winning she's in a great position and I see her as a F4 or better candidate like Jenn of Palau.
Steph Everyone here has already nailed Steph's edit. I see her as F4 based on a Koror-type alliance she saw from the outside looking in last time. I think that experience will make her determined to be part of a tight group this time. She may be taken to F2 as the one who won't win. That depends a bit on who the last people are and whether the F3 IC winner chooses to play by taking an unlikeable companion. Or she may be eliminated at F4 so as to knock her out of contention for the final immunity.
My feeling about a F2 edit is this: a classic less likeable F2 edit is only an option if in fact that's how the game went. Here we have Steph who is the perfect F2 person, but what if she got knocked out before that but still makes the last episode? I think she would still get the same edit because that's what she lends herself towards. She would then make a good misdirection candidate for F2.
BobbyJon He's going to be a target but I think he's edited as the one who came back and gave it his heart for his team. He is playing to let the "most deserving" in his book go far. Bad luck for him I think his team merges with a minority and we are seeing the set-up that Steph views him as a competitor and not a potential ally. BJ and Brandon are immediate post-merge targets. Toast when he loses immunity. Immunity may put him on jury.
Gary Gary is a tough one. His edit last episode was very good, like he is finally stepping up and playing. His edit is tweaked by the "NFL" thing, that he has a certain fan base coming in (or CBS thinks so, which is what matters). Gary is in a bad position by following on Tom's heels. The father figure is not going to be UTR with Steph. The way I would see Gary going pre-merge is if his tribe gets down to 4 people at TC: BJ, Brandon, Danni, and Gary. He will then be another likeable character who didn't make it for no real fault of his own.
Amy is getting edited to be admired, like Twila, for her fun candid mouth, and like Lydia, for surviving against the odds. However, I think the odds catch up with her, after Brian goes. She has a simple story: push through the pain, persevere against bad odds, overcome the liability of her big mouth (unless we see more later) but is screwed nonetheless by ending up on a losing tribe and being the least athletic of the remaining people.
Rafe Yes, he is getting the likeable guy Ian edit, but Ian could have made it to F2. Rafe may be the Ian that could. Rafe is going to be one that no one wants to take to F2 UNLESS he can make a really good friend. IF he could make a suballiance with Lydia or Cindy I think he has a shot. I don't see Steph taking him and it's hard to see him on an immunity run unless they switch to puzzles at the end. Which could happen.
Rafe's edit reminds me of Tina. He is quiet but he is part of every vote decision. Jamie is under the false impression (that he passes along to Judd) that Rafe is the Lamber who will go along with them, but I think that Rafe talks to Steph more than what we have seen recently. Like Tina and Tom of Palau, Rafe is a Capricorn with skills for manipulation that I expect to see more of down the road.
Lydia I feel less sure of her than anyone. She's the classic "if she makes it to the merge she drops off the radar" underestimated player. I feel that after Margaret Lydia might be next in line for the boot. Steph treats her with disdain and I think Steph would lobby to preserve Cindy for the team. However, Rafe quite possibly wants to preserve Lydia as a future ally and we know Jamie has a soft spot for her--and Judd and Jamie aren't big on Cindy.
I think the answer may be that Cindy and Lydia are both getting long-term editing because Nakum wins the rest of the IC's. I think that's the reason for beating us over the head with Steph's confessionals: Steph's team is going to be the new Koror and BobbyJon's team is the new Ulong from here on out.
As for the winner's edit: again, I think I am in the minority, but I have never subscribed to the idea that there's necessarily a "likeable" component to the winner's edit. Every season I have seen the person who wins shown in some kind of bad light. Brian Heidik was shown making really offensive remarks and he won. Rob Mariano made offensive remarks and he was F2.
If I were editing this show, I would always start with "what story did this season give us?" Did a nice person win or a villain? Did an underdog win? A UTR player? A swimsuit model? A challenge powerhouse? Then you work with what material you have.
While I completely agree that the editors have tons of material to select from, I also believe that with any player who lasts to the F4 the essential game of that person will be seen on TV and the winner's "game" will be shown whether or not the viewers are going to like that person and be happy about the winner.
I've hardly liked any of the winners, ever. I'm generally bummed at the way the votes go, so if the editing is trying to get me to like the winner, the editing is sucking at its mission. I did like Tom, but that was an exception.
The stupider the establishment is, the smarter the rebels become.
Establishment stupidity is the greatest spur to creativity in evolutionary history ~ Robert Anton Wilson

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-15-05, 07:39 PM (EST)

11. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

My bad, I got all caught up in going through the player list and forgot to say how much I appreciate the insights of you who are the mainstays of the editing thread and especially Veruca, WOW, it's really something.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-15-05, 09:37 PM (EST)

12. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 10-15-05 AT 09:48 PM (EST)

OFG, so nice to see you in here and the more observations the better. Editing is not always objective; I certainly have asked people around here to clear some haze from my eyes because we get clouded by our likes/dislikes of contestants
michel, as always, glad to see you
You are absolutely correct about the winner OFG and this is something that I try to identify as quickly as possible since it helps rule out others.
If someone is too good to be true, they usually are not being edited as the winner. Every winner has to a good extent shown the audience strategy as well and there is ALWAYS a period (however brief) where that person is shown in trouble and we don't necessarily always like that person and most definitely the editing has to be based on what the winner gives them; hopefully we are astute enough to figure it out
As of now there are some characters who have not yet developed enough in order to make that determination. There are some who are too boxed into a "villian" corner or a "hero/heroine" corner that would not suggest a win.
I normally dislike boxing myself into the "final four" as longevity to me does not have numbers except for the possible/probable winner. I would suggest at this time that Danni, Stephenie, Brandon and Rafe have edits that suggest longevity. Others such as Lydia, Judd and Cindy have either been too good, too bad or not enough exposure (respectively) for me to judge. (Danni has been very different than Cindy in terms of visibility)
I would say from what appears to be happening with the stories we are discussing, Stephenie may find herself in a vulnerable position. While certain camera shots and such sometimes do not mean anything, I question them regardless. One would think that at some point, any point, Stephenie would be looked at as someone who needs to be booted. Jamie seems the person who would do this in light of the past exchanges they had in connection with each other.
In light of this, Jamie would seem destined to go before Stephenie. In the same context then you would suggest Cindy may outlast Judd (if karma is in order)Margaret has been delegated more short term due to the extreme downgrade in her editing. Remember we said, moms do pretty well if they act like Tina. If they act like the "overbearing" mom, it isn't good. Margaret was given that touch and has down spiraled since.
emy, I appreciate your opinion on Danni. I believe there is more than what we have been told thus far and I do not necessarily think her ENTIRE reason was just harmony but I'm sure it was a factor. I watched the scene between Danni and Brandon talking; this also was chopped and I think that conversation Danni was able to organize the necessity in booting Blake yet all we saw was Brandon disagreeing and saying he wouldn't vote Blake. It was chopped up and during this chopped version Danni made her case.
I think Danni has organized herself a nice little group of men who are listening to her intently. Even Brian (when talking with Gary about booting Blake) mentioned DANNI'S name about "going for that" Why Danni? There is more to her than we are being shown and it isn't ready to be told to us yet. michel, interesting you mention Danni's vote being emotional; I'd like to hear more about that from you as I didn't sense emotion playing a part in this. Danni said sometimes you have to do things like this, etc. which is where I found she was taking her emotions out of the game. Team unity may be only a portion of her reason; I think there may have been more to this but I may be giving her more credit than she deserves
As for now, in rewatching, Brian is too one dimensional and there was that nagging show of Amy injured again; this bothers me as nothing but making us look at Amy. Brian was extremely highlighted the other night, Gary took a plunge and Amy was consistent; this does not bode well for Brian. The match up of Judd and Margaret needs to get settled but I do wonder if Stephenie needs to worry a bit (but clearly this will be misdirection) and I'm sure Jamie may appear slightly vulnerable as well. The question now is will Lydia after so many TC's of her being vulnerable; THAT shift will prove interesting
It would be nice to see a final matchup between two women in light of all the messages that are being sent to us about "brute strength" and "getting rid of the weak" (aka Cindy's comment about not having the upper body strength of the men) yet our first images were of men laying down horribly sick and the women enduring through it all.
Last season we had a "man among men" who won, perhaps our show is now about the "woman who endured it all

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-15-05, 10:45 PM (EST)

13. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Responding to your question, VS, I think Dani's vote was emotional because it had to happen immediately. She said she didn't like young and immature men and she trusts Gary. How can that trust be based on anything else but a feeling she has? They haven't been teamates long enough to establish that trust and he hasn't done anything to earn it yet. Giving him her trust wasn't entirely rational. She was sure to make the merge keeping Blake 3 more days but she saw a chance to make a big move. You saw how she spoke of the power she had as a swing vote. I'm willing to suggest that she liked that power much more than she admitted.
By the way, I'm of the opinion the football story is dead. She had never met Gary and probably hadn't seen him on TV for the last 12 years. What is she going to do now that he has denied it as a simple resemblance? Ask him for his driver's licence?

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-15-05, 11:44 PM (EST)

14. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

I also feel Danni's vote was emotional rather than strategic because, in addition to mentioning her distaste for frat boys, she also said stuff about Blake already having a fancy lifestyle and how she wanted someone more deserving to have a chance at the mil. Additionally she commented on his womanizing and alcohol consumption. I can't remember her exact words, but her entire reasoning for voting out Blake was personally judgmental -- i.e., emotional.
People keep talking about Danni having a winner's edit, and I'm just not seeing it. This is probably at least partly because I'm biased and don't want to see it -- I don't like Danni at all, and I don't want her to win. But it's also partly because I'm seeing stuff that I don't consider that positive, no matter how sweetly or apologetically she says it. Her vote this week was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen anyone do on the show. I don't like her public Christianizing over food and before challenges. Her obsession with her appearance is extremely grating. She was prominently shown, by the editors, whining pathetically and concerned only for her own comfort during the blindfold gather-the-tent-parts challenge. This doesn't yell "Winner" to me, but I guess it could if you like whiny vain anorexic bible-thumping chicks who can't do simple mathematics like four minus three. :grin:

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littletown 85 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
10-16-05, 05:27 PM (EST)

15. "Irony"

Is it just me or does Mark Brunette love irony???
Blake is getting quoted as "goldenboy" and Amy says how everything always works out for him, and then he is booted.
I see Judd's comment to Cindy about being the star she is as ironic, and she will be a star and be Judd's demise.

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-16-05, 06:28 PM (EST)

16. "RE: Irony"

Welcome littletown!!!
YES EPMB loves him some irony...and so do I. I am the resident irony watcher here
Anytime you hear something like Blake saying everything worked out for him BAM he's gone...Also, it was "assumed" the NuYaxha would win challenges bc of strength BAM they go to TC in Ep 5...
Steph in Ep 3 (and in all eps.) yaks about being on a losing team and she is switched to the winning Nakum team in Ep. 4 but they LOSE the IC...Nakum is yakking about winning all the challenges in Ep 3...Nakum loses IC in Ep. 4 (albeit with new people but still they lost)

Irony...it's not just for dinner anymore...

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-16-05, 09:59 PM (EST)

17. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

EPMB doesn't want the winner to stand out to much in editing. He wants the winner to be mult-dimensional, some who has the potential to be disliked.
When it comes to decision making EPMD definately doesn't want us to know who is really pulling the strings or what influence they have in the process. Last season many thought it was Ian who was in charge because he was shown talking strategy with Tom and Tom acting as if he was agreeing.
I tend to be more interested in who(m) is present when these strategic decisions are made. These people and their lack of input makes me wonder why we haven't heard any of their thoughts. Two such people that come immediately to mind are Dani and Rafe.
Editing is not about what is seen but often about what isn't seen.
DRONES

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-17-05, 12:35 PM (EST)

19. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Steph's Edit: The editing has me disliking Steph, she was particularly "annoying" last episode. Maybe the animosity between the tribes IS "stemming from Steph" (FP) Maybe Steph actually has a strategy. Clearly, we're meant to know what is being said about BJ. Since BJ has already proved he's a threat
Steph might be feeding others' minds in order to undermine
their stellar opinion of BJ and also to shed a different light on herself. My question: Is Steph the driving force behind Jamie's outbursts towards BJ? It is ironic to have Jamie fighting,seemingly, for Steph when he was the first one to pipe up about getting rid of her! If she can prompt her henchmen to act on their dislike for BJ, then it appears as if THEY are out-of-control, NOT her. Then, the pressure completely "SHIFTS" away from Steph and onto the men, which also supports a "You Go Girl" theme.

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Miscreation 48 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
10-17-05, 12:15 PM (EST)

18. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Something has been bugging me about a little piece of editing. It's minor, but still bugging me. I'm not sure if it has any value or not, but I'll leave that analysis up to those of you who are much better at it than I am.
In an interview before the show started, Jeff Probst gave his assessment of the cast. There's a thread here about it (buried several pages).
His comments on Lydia were, "Lydia, the fishmonger. I'm not going to lie. I don't think Lydia is going to last long. I think it's because she's not built for this game. This is so tough out here. It's sooo hot. The challenges are so physical. She's in jeans. For crying out loud."
The fact that he said "For crying out loud" makes me think he is viewing someone who would be stupid enough to wear jeans in a jungle as being too stupid to possibly win this game.
However, I've noticed that sometimes we see Brandon in jeans, yet Jeff has made no comment about it. Hmmmmm....makes you think, doesn't it?

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-17-05, 08:09 PM (EST)

20. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

So glad to see different responses
surviette - For the very reason that Stephenie is causing this reaction in you considering her stellar edit last season is all the more reason that she does appear to be heading towards that final two foil role.
As of right now, there really does not appear any better choice. While Judd is shown in a somewhat menancing role, he is too "characterized" for my liking. Ironically, Stephenie may want to employ him as HER two final two foil but I doubt he gets far enough for this to happen.
Thank you for those who commented about Danni I find it extremely interesting as to the strong reaction about her. It reminds me of when I took that small poll in here last season regarding Tom and heard the opinion that he was arrogant.
As you know, I had selected Danni as the best choice this year. I went back to read what she had to say about strategy.
"... I'm gonna sit back and see, you know, who would be the strong person to get, in an alliance with.
I understand the view that Danni may have made a crucial mistake in abandoning an assured foursome on the spot but I still believe we were not privy to some crucial elements in what happened and again, I believe she was the driving force behind it.
In light of some viewers opinion of Danni being less than positive, it does then make me question how you would feel about her in relation to Stephenie's edit? If they are proceeding on the same course (I mentioned in our first thread that there was a "sense" of a potential match between these two with the way they were consistently showcased almost in conjunction at the challenges) Danni may then become somewhat more "attractive" to those disliking her
Miscreation - I remember smiling at Jeff's comment over Lydia's jeans and we know Jeff's tidbits are often meant to be misleading. Lydia is certainly having an incredible journey and if her "edit" continues on this path, she may be one of our longer term players.
Irony is always put forth through the season; a sociological "game" such as this produces irony as much as it produces semi celebrities
In light of what we already discussed in terms of the face time increase/drop, dimensions of the characters, issues coming to a head or there merely for distraction, the next episode should "flesh" out (hopefully) those we are still grasping for a clue about. I already stated my impressions for what appears to be coming regarding the Brian, Amy, Gary situation and over at Nakum, it certainly appears that Stephenie (as we discussed early on) is making the key decisions. In the long term, we also have to look at those alliances that appear the strongest and most implemented and that also assists in longevity.

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-17-05, 08:22 PM (EST)

21. "RE: Big Shifts-Nash Equilibrium"

The last two weeks have seen an upswing in game play after the first four non-players were voted off. Using the Nash Equilibrium theory we can analyze not only how each remaining player is playing the game but also how they are being edited as playing the game. While both are important sometimes the difference between editing and reality can be even more significant.
Yaxha Two weeks ago we were shown Blake as emerging as decision maker of the old Nakum at Yaxha. Combined with Gary and Brian, the established leaders at old Yaxha, this made the tribe a M-Tribe. Gary and Brian successfully targeted Blake, a classic example of Nash Equilibrium at work. The problem was that Blake was not the leader of the old Nakum. In reality, Blake was not evicted because he was the leader; it was because he was not part of the BBD alliance, and maybe a little annoying as well. From post show interviews and insider clips it has been shown that Danni is the leader of the old-Nakum.
That Danni did not emerge as a leader makes it even more difficult to analyze Yaxha. The remaining leaders, Brian and Gary, seem to be working well together. Brian is the behind the scenes leader while Gary is the up front leader. Brian sent Lydia to Gary to save herself and it was Brian whispering into Gary’s ear to push for Blake. This is similar to Chris and Sarge in Vanuatu. From an editing perspective this could be considered a N-Tribe with Brian as the leader, Gary as the figurehead, and the rest followers. In this case Brian is probably safe for a while. From a story line perspective Gary and Amy would be the obvious short-term targets.
In reality, the tribe is most likely a M-Tribe with Brian/Gary/Danni all as leaders. In this case Danni would also have to be considered a target. However, because she is not being editing as a leader creates the divergence I mentioned above. See VS above, she portrays herself as a follower. A leader in a M-Tribe or N-Tribe not being portrayed as a leader is a sign of longevity because they are being edited as playing the appropriate game within the context of the edited season.
Under this scenario the remaining two leaders Brian and Gary could target each other. Gary hooks up with Danni and Brian is booted. This appears to be the consensus scenario this week, but I have reservations. Two weeks ago Blake, a one-dimensional character, received a leader’s edit and then was booted. Last week Gary, a one-dimensional character received a leader’s edit. Could he be booted? Gary is much more of a natural and defined leader than Blake was, so this is a pretty weak argument but the scenario still bugs me a bit.
Nakum Things are much more simpler at Nakum. We have established that Margaret, Judd, Jamie, and Steph are all getting leader edits. This is definitely being edited as a M-Tribe. Cindy, Lydia, and Rafe should all do very well. Both Margaret and Judd are obvious short-term targets.
In reality this tribe is also probably a M-Tribe, although not quite to the extent it is being portrayed. I considered making the argument that this is actually an N-Tribe. I don’t think the Steph/Jamie conflict has anything to do with current tribal dynamics because it is a longer-term story. Most likely it will resurface at the merge with BJ set in the middle. Right now the two of them control the tribe and can boot whom they see fit.
It reality Margaret is actually a leader. Unfortunately for Margaret, this does not indicate any form of longevity at this time, but she is getting a true edit. In contrast, despite Judd’s “King of the Jungle” speech, from insider clips and post-show interviews, Judd is pretty alone out there. He wasn’t apart of any alliance with Margaret/Brooke/Cindy. That he flipped so easily is not surprising. Judd as a leader is probably the biggest contradiction to his “real” situation. Unfortunately for Judd, when players are portrayed using poor strategy under Nash Equilibrium, it is not a sign of longevity.
Based on Nash the most likely players to make the jury are:
Danni
Brian
Steph
Jamie
Cindy
Lydia
Rafe
Players who are not likely not likely to make the jury:
Judd
Margaret
Players who may make the Jury
Gary
Amy
Brandon
BJ
Once we reach the jury the editing patterns can change as the players emerge. Greg and Chris went from leaders to followers, Rich and Tina went from followers to leaders, V stayed a follower and Brian stayed a leader. Whatever the winner’s strategy it is always edited appropriately via the competition.
Some of this contradicts many of the current editing scenarios and I tried to avoid thinking about what we know about the editing when constructing this. As KOB has said this is only a tool in determining the longevity of players, and must only be considered in context with the player editing as a whole.
In other terms, feel free to rip this to pieces.

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-17-05, 08:45 PM (EST)

22. "RE: Big Shifts-Nash Equilibrium"

Great job, Rosie! I loved it, and I'd say you did an awesome job with it. I think you are right in that it's kind of hard to label who is a follower vs. leader when the editing is as it is...sometimes it shows us blatantly what's going on, and sometimes it's much more subtle. For example, we think that Danni is a leader in the old nakum's at Yaxha, but is she really being edited as such? Is she really a leader? Was it Gary that convinced her/suggested to her rational support for a Blake boot, and she agreed. Was it the father figure who knows all about team/tribe unity that convinced BJ to vote Blake as well, or was it Danni? I am thinking that Danni is playing the follower role and choosing who to follow. I also agree that once the merge occurs the dynamics will/may change once again and perhaps the survivors true strategy will be revealed...eventually!
The leaders are much more difficult to pick out, imo....whereas it is clear who the followers are...it seems to me that with all these leaders, a follower is bound to win.
Thanks so much for throwing the ole Nash Equilibrium Theory into the mix! I love it!

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-18-05, 10:34 AM (EST)

23. "RE: Big Shifts-Nash Equilibrium"

Nice analysis Rosie...esp. your take on Brian and Gary. I too have reservations that Brian will continue to be the target at Gary's doing in ep. 6. From his edit, Brian could potentially be a F2 foil, but I think Steph has that role pretty much sewed up.
And VS..about a Danni v. Steph F2...I don't think it would make me see Danni in a better light...I just would be very disappointed as I was in Palau when it was a Katie v. Tom F2...I wanted Ian there as this year I would love Rafe to be there...but the editing isn't showing it that way, imo. Close but no cigar for Rafe...

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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10-18-05, 12:47 PM (EST)

24. "Nash Theory and Guatemala"

Thanks again to Rosie for starting the speculation, now I will add from my perspective the things that I have seen.
Basically there are 3 kinds of players in the Nash theory: Leaders, followers, and half-breeds. First things first, let me start by categorizing the remaining survivors with a word or two about their game play.
Yaxha
Brian- He is a leader, though low key and behind the scenes, he is a very manipulative person and knows how to read people very well. Because he is not a dominant alpha-male type, this could help him stay longer in the game as long as he doesn't tip his manipulative hand too early. He also could manipulate the others so well that it catches them off guard and makes them make a mistake.
Gary- He is a leader and an alpha-male, hence he will soon become a target. He has been involved in the decision making process for the boot, but he isn't necessarily the one driving the bus all the time. Gary's biggest problem is that he hasn't embraced his leadership role, yet it fits his character. The one thing about Survivor is that when you get stripped of everything you have, you can't hide who you are. His days are numbered.
Amy- She is a half-breed although she does lean toward being a follower, and usually that spells trouble. I don't think she has the personality or charisma to oust a leader and get people to follow her, yet she isn't a true follower either. She could last for a while because of not being seen as a physical threat compared to some of the other half-breeds.
Brandon- He is a half-breed too and again that is never the best game to play in survivor. Because of his physical skills he will be seen as a threat to the alpha's and he isn't capable of stepping in to the leader role and get people to follow him, so he is pretty much screwed.
Bobby John- Another half-breed alpha-male threat. He is too wishy-washy to get a plan together and make people follow him, yet he isn't a true follower himself. All eyes will turn to him as the merge gets closer, his welcome will be worn out.
Danni- She is deceptive, but I believe that she is a leader. She may be laying back for her time to come into the spotlight, but make no mistake about it, this woman does have the charisma, brains, and strength to get people to follow her when the time comes. The trouble is, in a chaotic season such as this one is going to become, her game play is not favored, all things being equal.
Yaxha as a tribe has got to be considered an M tribe. The interesting part about Yaxha is that they have no true followers on the tribe anymore. Every one of them has an eye on the leadership role at some point in the near future and if one of them jumps the gun too soon, will create their own demise.
Nakum
Stephenie- She is a leader, though an inept one at that. She doesn't inspire her tribe to win, she picks and brings them down instead and then whines over losing. From a game perspective she seems to get people to listen and follow her and she has been shown to drive some of the tribe decisions. The problem is, she will always be a target because of who she is, but can she keep the heat off her long enough to make it to the end?
Margaret- She is also a leader but now is outnumbered and playing with wayyyyyyyy too much emotion. She has some sound plans but is now over matched and should be targeted soon.
Judd- He is a half-breed and alpha-male who will wear a target on his head soon. He is too obnoxious to get much support from others and I don't see him smoothing ruffled feathers like Rob Cesternino could do.
Jamie- I see him as a half-breed too, although I don't know for sure about his ability as a leader. He might have what it takes to get people to follow, either way it doesn't bode well for his game.
Rafe- He is clearly a follower and I believe that is by choice since he has read his tribe so well and realizes that this will be his best chance to win. He is smart enough to go along with the majority and stay UTR.
Lydia- She reminds me so much of Sandra in many ways, and Lydia is a true follower. She will hook her cart from leader in power to leader in power until she has ridden as far as she can go, and then she will cut the strings.
Cindy- One more true follower to add to the mix. But we don't know that much about this woman. I haven't got a good sense from her, will Judd's words be foreshadowing? "Step up and be the star you think you are"? That could very well be.
Nakum is therefore an M tribe too. The biggest difference is that Nakum has more followers and those followers are in the majority alliance, at least as it stands now.
This season is so similar to that of the Marquesas. There is going to be nothing but chaos as no one large alliance will dominate. The tide will keep shifting from leader to leader with the half-breeds trying to step up and cut their own noses off in the process. In the end when the dust settles it will be a follower that stands the best chance to win Survivor Guatemala.
Of interesting note, the only season to have produced a winner that was on a group swapped to a different tribe was Vecepia in Marquesas. Rafe and Lydia are followers who were swapped to Nakum, yet they both stand a good chance of winning this season. In fact, the best way for a follower to win will be by bringing another follower with them to the F2.
The people with the best shot at winning:
Cindy
Amy (If she adapts to the follower role and gives up the notion of being a leader)
Rafe
Lydia
Outside chance of winning:
Brian- If anybody makes a mistake and keeps this guy around too long and if a follower makes a mistake of bringing him to the F2.
Stephenie- Same thing, people would have to make drastic mistakes for her to get to the F2, but if she is there against a follower, she would win.

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Rasta 210 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-18-05, 02:15 PM (EST)

25. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

Wow, thanks for a great analysis.
This Nash theory is new for me. I'm pretty much lost when I hear "M tribe" or "N tribe". Can you provide a link to some resources that will help me get a better understanding of all this?
I find it really interesting that NuYaxha has 3 leaders who are all trying to avoid appearing like a leader, while NuNakum has 3 (or 4) leaders who seem wrapped up in a power struggle. I don't know how this will play out, but I do know that unified tribes usually outperfrom divided tribes.
I'm also curious about Rafe vs Brian. They are similar in many ways (Ivy leagueers; intelligent, non-athletic, experts on the game). I had hoped they would become allies. They are both receiving plenty of face time, but with entirely different edits. I'll be curious which of the "experts" has the better gameplan.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-18-05, 02:33 PM (EST)

26. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

KO, always a wonderful tool to employ in this game and I see many of your "Nash" thoughts and my (and others of course but I would never presume to speak for anyone when they do it so nicely themselves) "editing" thoughts are similar.
emydi - You my dear are definitely not happy with Danni and for your sake I hope my feelers are wrong
rasta, glad to see you in here; Nash is truly interesting to this game. Your question about Rafe and Brian is a good one. What is fascinating about this show is that how two relatively similar people with a similar background will get EDITED completely different based on how they progress.
The fact that Brian is overtly arrogant in his own expertise and is made sure to be shown rolling his eyes, smirking, etc. lends a completely different edit to Rafe who is consistently being shown as supportive, positive and a cheerleading (while also being observant) This is where *we* then decide that their characterizations are done for specific reasons; Brian, most likely, so the audience can see his failure and Rafe his success

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Rasta 210 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-18-05, 03:37 PM (EST)

29. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

VS, thanks for the kind words. I discovered this site last season, and have been an avid reader of this editing thread ever since. You and the other regulars have opened my eyes to a whole new side of Survivor. It's made the show even more enjoyable.
I think you're right about the editing pointing to Rafe's success and Brian's failure. We're supposed to like Rafe, and dislike Brian.
But Brian is probably a really nice guy, too. He was voted most tribe-spirited; he gave that over-the-top pep speech. Likewise, you know Rafe has done plenty of strategizing with Steph. For all we know, he might be quietly controlling Steph. We just haven't been shown that part of his game.

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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-18-05, 04:52 PM (EST)

31. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

I think that Brian is trying to play a role that isn't really him. From all the pre-show publicity, he would seem to have been a very popular guy in high school -- valedictorian, prom prince, in all the school plays, etc. You don't get that popular by trash-talking everyone in sight.
Brian is such a Survivor-geek, I think he really wanted to make an impression when he went on the show. So he decided to play a a "villain" because they are the memorable characters. And, of course, he did plan to scheme anyway.
But, imo, he isn't very good at carrying off the "villain" persona. And sheerly by virtue of the switch, he's in a bad way strategically. I think he still believes he is controlling things from behind the scenes, but that is going to come to an end shortly.

Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-18-05, 02:59 PM (EST)

27. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

Rasta it is good to see more interest in Nash's Uncooperative Game Theory.
KOB used to have a great link to a very good explanation of UGT, but it went dead and until it can be found, KOB and I bantered about the basics here.
http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/5982.shtml#14
I urge you to focus on KOB’s interpretation of the Nash Equilibrium. I focus more on a theory that MB uses the NE as an editing tool. KOB uses a much more integrated approach that has been proven to be successful in the past.
Alas, I have not seen such success, hence why mine is still a theory.

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
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10-18-05, 03:13 PM (EST)

28. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

WOW KOFan! That was an awesome application to the John Nash Uncooperative Game Theory. I thought that you were definately on the mark with these peeps, although right now I'd put Danni in the half-breed column....which if she decides to go more for a leadership role, or infact opts to go UTR and be in a follower role, that could indeed help out her game. As you pointed out, you think that Rafe is "choosing" to be in the follower group.
This is going to be very interesting to watch as the season progresses! Thanks so much!
fp

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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10-18-05, 04:39 PM (EST)

30. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

KT I found these two as very interesting (and also Danni's)
Amy- She is a half-breed although she does lean toward being a follower, and usually that spells trouble. I don't think she has the personality or charisma to oust a leader and get people to follow her, yet she isn't a true follower either. She could last for a while because of not being seen as a physical threat compared to some of the other half-breeds.
Brandon- He is a half-breed too and again that is never the best game to play in survivor. Because of his physical skills he will be seen as a threat to the alpha's and he isn't capable of stepping in to the leader role and get people to follow him, so he is pretty much screwed.
I haven't really seen Amy do much leading lately (if at all) what actions has Amy taken to make you place her in half-breed status? And I could see Brandon as being able to be a leader...I would have liked to see how he handled Danni when she brought up the Blake vote in Ep. 5. All we saw was his decision to stay true to his word.
What I find hard to do is to reconcile the Nash theory with EPMB's editing. I first saw Brandon as one with longevity based on his edit and Amy as more short term. But the Nash theory seems to suggest the opposite. When you do your analysis, do you take into consideration how EPMB is portraying the Survivors?
Like right now, I see Danni and Steph as the F2 with Danni winning based on editing (steph as foil) with Rafe and Lydia coming close but no cigar...and rather than Lydia cutting the strings, the others finally have no use for her anymore and she is ousted around F5/6. But you see a follower winning it, like in Marquesas.
Maybe I just don't know enough of the psychology of the Nash theory to understand your analysis.

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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10-18-05, 06:22 PM (EST)

32. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

Good questions Emy, obviously to a certain degree you have to take the editing into consideration to a certain degree, but I like to look at the whole game and what is the best move for each player. For example, Chris and his early edit showed a vulnerable guy who was able to talk his way out of the boot and then got a leg up because of the alliance he formed.
Amy hasn't showed many signs of leading lately, those signs were in the first two episodes as we saw conversations with her and Gary among other things. Also, by her nature because of what she does for work is another reason I have her pegged as a half-breed, that natural leadership will come out. But like I said, if she can control the urge to take over as a leader, and if she can stay the course with her follower role, then she does stand a good chance of winning, hence why I have her listed.
What is Danni's best move, what will get her to advance? She needs to cut down some of these alpha males that were so needed at the beginning of the game. The problem is that while she is whittling away at the alphas she will become a target by the very people that she has asked to join with her to boot the rest.
With a chaotic season, which I expect this to be just based on the balance of survivors we have, it lends itself to a follower to win, but that is no guarantee. If somebody makes a mistake and opens a door that shouldn't have been opened, then someone like Danni could stick her foot in it and open it long enough to get the win.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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10-18-05, 06:48 PM (EST)

33. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

Fantastic post, KO! And I'm beginning to agree with you as to who the winner will be:
Rafe
Cindy
Lydia
Steph
I WAS firmly in the 'Danni wins' camp but recently I've been feeling maybe this thought is wrong. I dunno, she doesn't quite strike me as a winner like she used to...
Tell me, did Nash peg this theory WAY before Survivor began? Because it seems amazingly fitting for Survivor, almost like it was written FOR the show...

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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10-18-05, 07:23 PM (EST)

34. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 10-18-05 AT 07:26 PM (EST)
First, to answer AJ: John Nash was a mathematician and an economist who won the Nobel prize for economics in the early 90's (1993 or 1994 I think ). his works were in the 50's and 60's. This year's Nobel for economics was awarded to 2 followers of his theories.
Next, KOB_Fan you've made a great analysis. I'd just like to add that eventhough we have many leaders or wannabe leaders, they are either ineffectual (Brandon, BJ, Judd, Margaret) or they don't want to assume it (Gary). We also saw that leadership was anathema to Stephenie last year so I don't think she'll do more than guide until someone steps up.
That leads me to Dani and her many alliances. If she manages to get rid of Brian this week, she'll be set up perfectly for F4.

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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10-18-05, 07:33 PM (EST)

35. "RE: Nash Theory and Guatemala"

Nash theory of uncooperative game play started way before survivor, but you are right AJ it fits. In fact Jeff Probst mentioned at the reunion show of I think Marquesas, that any player thinking about getting on the show should read up on Nash theory. Many since then have and it shows. In fact Katie played the role of follower perfectly last season and her main mistake was not getting rid of Tom and trying to take a fellow follower like Caryn to F2, in which case Katie would have most likely won.

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King Will 49 desperate attention whore postings
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10-19-05, 02:30 PM (EST)

36. "A different take on Steph/ Danni"

LAST EDITED ON 10-19-05 AT 03:21 PM (EST)
Hi all,
Not much time to take part this week (we're in layoffs are coming mode here) But I can't stay away. VS, BR great points as always. I don't really have much to say about Nash Theories, I think they are useful when people play a rational game, but...
>At this point, I am interested
>in hearing who people are
>seeing at the final stomping
>ground. I’ve been pretty
>obstinate about who I see
>as the standout for the
>end and I’m not inclined
>to change that opinion (yet
>)
I agree about Rafe, Lydia and Steph as likely end gamers, but I'm shifting away from Danni- I believe there is some group think Bias going on here - more on that later. As for other possibilities, I'd say Amy and maybe Cindy for now.
Yaxha
Bobby Jon - moved to the forefront this week but didn't seem to be controlling the game. Always a bad sign.
Brandon- favorable light in true to word but couldn't keep Danni or BJ in line not sure what this holds for him.
Brian - schemer needs one more ep to come to his end at the end of his own strings- never shown to be active always manipulative, could be f2 foil but they usually wait and develop that post merge. Goes next or failing that soon.
Amy- moved to back seat, not necessarily bad, still has a target but could keep going again the dominant "I will not quit theme" I think she could get to an individual immunity post merge and be voted out soon after.
Gary - Big change in edit as far as I can see- Gary got depth beyond his previous edit. He is moving to more long term late jury boot.
Danni - I just don't see it. Why do people think she's involved in so much behind the scenes scheming? I think she is playing emotionally and the average viewer said something like "Who's that?" last week when she talked about strategy. I don't think she goes soon, but I think she is shaping to be an early jury boot with the edit I'm seeing now. If she doesn't get some editing depth soon, I'll be 100% convinced she is not final 2.

Nakum
Judd - True villian bully who will not make the merge but likely will survive tonight b/c he's being set up as a straightforward "Yeah he's gone" villian boot.
Margaret - Emotional one dimensional.. gone soon
Cindy - Being set upto triumph over Judd, but needs more to get better than a Darrah edit.
Jamie - Complex, Sulky. I see set up for post Jury Villian coming to fruition.
Rafe - Dear invisible Rafe- goes far but no winner
Larger than Life Lydia -not that its tough
Rupert II
Steph - I know everyone is setting on her a the foil, but I think she's going to get there with a follower and win this thing. I've checked with a few people who aren't as fanatical as us and they still like her and want her to win, even feel that she really has been unlucky with her tribe shuffles and many would like to see her overcome all of that based on last year's hero's edit. Yes she's geeting some bad, but so did Tom and Sandra and Brian and Chris. Really I think MB is shoving the winner down our throats and a few people (myself included) who are sick of Steph have colored our thinking. We keep assuming that the other survivor's would never let her win, but I've seen no one step up who is more worthy.
Anyway rip away,
King Will

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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10-19-05, 03:37 PM (EST)

37. "RE: A different take on Steph/ Danni"

LAST EDITED ON 10-20-05 AT 01:31 PM (EST)
Ah King Will, I am interested in hearing more on your opinion especially the bias My thoughts on Danni occurred after the first episode aired and there has been nothing in her edit thus far that would have me change my mind yet as her edit has slowly increased somewhat and that can be a good thing (as we discussed with Cindy's slow emergence and the *way* it evolves)
In reading your opinion about Danni's longevity, I can certainly understand. Watching this show in "editing terms" is different for everyone so my (or anyone else's) perception will be different. Take anything and there will always be some who view it differently because *we* are all different which is one of the reasons why I asked those who dislike Danni for their reasons; I've been detached watching her as a person but there are nuances going on with her that make me question how well she does.
Only Lydia has my brow raised slightly but at this time, I still feel she is getting that wonderful edit that Mark Burnett and company only give to select few because they just have an indefinable quality that needs to recognized.
I would like to hear what you mean as I really have not even taken the time to view Danni as a person; only a character. Danni's "editing" (so to speak) like the other contestants is what I view though sometimes subjectivity about our "favorites" can cloud our vision (or our dislike for that matter) Last season much emphasis on the growing dislike for Tom was discussed but as we saw, editing the winner does not preclude showing them negatively as well.
Frankly, if I had my druthers, I would issue some amount to Bobby Jon and THAT is entirely based on bias
As far as Stephenie goes, you may very well be correct. Personally, my level of distate for Stephenie has not gone to the level of some others; I think her competitive nature and all the time she has lived through losing has taken a toll and understanbly so. However, it is clear that her "persona" has undergone a change from last season to this season and that raises some questions much like Rupert's stellar edit in PI as opposed to All Stars and, in fact, we could potentially conclude that his edit in All Stars was more genuine whereas in PI, it was heavily manipulated.
Again, I need to be a little more concise as I ended up writing a novel again and this week's show has not even aired
KO and Rosie wonderful exploration on your Nash thoughts.
ETA: aj please let me know what you hear tonight again on Brandon as his edit has "irked" me somewhat and that bothers me in light of the strength vs. endurance themes

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
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10-19-05, 03:44 PM (EST)

38. "RE: A different take on Steph/ Danni"

I think I agree! Perhaps the theme this season is a continuation
of "I will not give up". Steph would not give up last season.
As well, Blake did not give up when he was sick. Amy says she
will not give up. Lydia certainly has not given up. I'd say,
if Steph and Lydia are F2, it would lend, conveniently, to such
a theme. MB loathes quitters and there were loads last season.
I have no feelings about Danni or how she fits in.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 03:13 AM (EST)

39. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Quote that stuck out for me (sorry, already deleted episode so I forget exact words:
Cindy on Judd:
That when he runs his mouth without thinking, in the end that can come around to bite him.
Not bite him tonight, but "in the end."
That would be a useful sound byte if Judd sticks around for awhile but eventually gets his comeuppance.
1

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 02:58 PM (EST)

40. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

OFG, you are one step ahead of me as that quote did indeed stick out
Another eventful episode (compliments of Judd Kong) but one where the editing took a nice plateau. With the exception of only potentially one or two apparent shifts, this episode primarily helped to further establish the players and their relationships right now.
Interesting Quotes
Brandon “Blake’s vote opened my eyes quite a bit; we were four strong. People will flip and you’ll find yourself voted off and won’t even know how it happened.”
Bobby Jon (to Brandon) “It’s part of the stage of the game where I had to do what I had to do. (Very interesting to me since we haven’t seen Bobby Jon like this last season, he went his own way on his decisions and like we have discussed, this season he appears to be thinking a little more strategically and seems to value certain others’ opinions more)
Jamie (about the bugs) “Just bite me and go, you know” (I love these quotes for their potential double meanings)
Rafe “The six of us get along really well........”
Judd (to Jamie) “We lose Margaret tonight, and we are down to what, six? Six right?” (Whenever I hear more than one person refer to a particular number even if that number is sensible to use in their statements, it raises suspicion with me)
Jeff (at challenge) “Judd had it but didn’t have the puzzle”
Judd (at challenge) “ I had it....next time I’m gonna keep my mouth shut” (and for some reason, I don’t think he will)
Stephenie (after challenge) “We’re on a winning streak” (All good things will come to an end?)
Amy (After losing challenge) “One night after the other, horrible”
Bobby Jon “There’s a line crossed with me and he crossed it (Jamie)
Bobby Jon (To Brandon) “You want to buck up, that’s fine but there’s another bear out in the woods”
Gary (to Brian about voting) “....so long as it’s not a tie” (Always mentioning of ties, makes you question if we will be seeing one)
Gary (about the vote) “Why would I get rid of Bobby Jon; one of the strongest players on the team?
Brandon (to Bobby Jon) “Win the next one, I guess”
Bobby Jon (to Brandon) “That’s all we can do”
Right after, solo shot only of Amy’s ankle
Brandon (About the vote) “Amy and Brian are probably the biggest threat in getting voted off; I don’t know what kind of alliances they have”
An interesting voice over scene.............
Brian in voiceover”There is no one who is safe...” (Shot of Brandon during this)
Brian in voiceover”....and we are all looking to get each other out of the game to get further” (during this commentary, Danni is shown)
At this point, there is an editing cut (presumably more said that wasn’t entirely necessary)
Brian in voiceover”I hope Amy and Gary aren’t pulling the wool over my eyes” (shots of Gary and Amy during this)
Judd “They need me, I’m one of the big guns, not going overboard but I feel like I can say what I want” (Judd is slowly being set up to have a very big fall, no question there) as we will add
Margaret “Judd is Judd’s biggest enemy” and.......
Cindy “Judd needs to watch his mouth; his mouth works before his brain does... ...negative mark on his plate and in the end it can come back to get him” (Judd’s downfall will be none other than Judd)
Jamie (at TC) “Rafe! Have an opinion!”
Stephenie (at TC) “Judd’s like me, can’t sit still” and “He embraced it (about the new tribe) to go as far as we can; what is he gonna do, say “I”m not gonna talk to you guys; that’s retarded!”
Jeff (at TC to Nakum) “Tonight, to paraphrase you, you got rid of the problem; if that’s true, there should be happy days at Nakum”
Bobby Jon”He’s a kamikaze that’s gonna bust a wedge” (No reason to mention this other than it was humorous)
Bobby Jon “It’s gonna happen (voting someone off); it’s just the way it is”
Jeff “You did a great job of pumping him up and making him feel secure and then cutting his throat. If it can happen to him, it can happen to you.”
The Relationships/Tribal Dynamics/Editing of Characters
No question at Nakum that Judd and Jamie are extremely bonded. Jamie acts quite like a younger brother. We see Judd kiss his head, we see Jamie rub Judd’s shoulder. With this we see that Stephenie has firmly attached herself to Judd as well; we note she immediately jumped into his arms after the challenge and immediately went to defend him at Tribal Council. The question now is what is the relationship between Jamie and Stephenie? Two people in “bed” with each other due to politics with no real commitment towards one another except for the fact they have Judd in common?
Rafe took an up turn in his air time that had bumped down a bit the episode before. He had quite a few confessionals about the setting and the tribal dynamics which we have grown accustomed to seeing. We already presumed him to be narrator and it appears obvious to not only us but also to his tribe that he attempts to be very neutral (pointed out by Jamie to have an opinion) While Rafe seems to be still close with Stephenie it seemed painfully clear that Judd and Jamie would probably not be Rafe’s first choice to be with Rafe’s visuals were very uncomfortable during all of Judd’s tribe and TC rants. He may very well voice an opinion in letting Judd go.
Lydia took a painfully apparent back seat last night in being shown in contrast to the overwhelming face time she has received thus far. It appears that Lydia may have gotten over a bit of the vulnerability hump but it was unnecessary to showcase that vulnerability this episode because the clear boot was to be Margaret, therefore, there was absolutely no reason to highlight any underdog status
Cindy had her narration again with some very focused quotes on the tribe dynamics regarding Judd; as we have been discussing it does seem more concrete that her edit is growing slowly as she is no longer relegated to just seeing her on the tribe but she is now showing us her thoughts, we now are getting to know Cindy more which is a good thing in editing
Jamie and Stephenie have been marginally consistent with no real changes. It certainly does appear that Stephenie may have some direct story with Bobby Jon as the editors are not letting go of her thoughts about Bobby Jon’s actions It would therefore not be surprising if she has a major hand in eliminating him from this game. At this point, Jamie and Bobby Jon merely seem to be shown in accordance with the events occurring; two men “with testosterone”
It does appear there are many subtle feelers put out that all this “strength” ultimately has a way of getting the best of these people and again, endurance may be the ticket
Brandon still interests me greatly. He seems a genuine part of this group but not quite. He questions Bobby Jon about remorse over Blake thereby insinuating his being on the outside of what occurred but he is also a big part of this tribe. His discussion about finding himself voted off and not even knowing how it happened was interesting and I question if prophetic as well Brandon has shown to be quite a narrator also about the camp and the tribe dynamics. If not for the fact that I do still feel a woman of endurance could win this, Brandon would be someone I would still keep my eye on as his edit has usually been very positive or neutral with no real issues. However, I do have some concerns in some of the things he discusses
Bobby Jon Certainly it is refreshing (for me at least) to see a bit more of a game player from him (which considering last season, I don’t know how much of it is actually his) but ultimately, with all the issues surrounding Stephenie and her own personal battle with him; it stands to reason that he will not outlast Stephenie. Again, I have to say that based on what he tells us as opposed to then what he does, someone has great influence and earlier I had mentioned Danni and I still believe this to be true
Gary and Amy and Danni Amy’s leg took quite a beating again but as we talked about, since it was not a focus the week before, obviously it did not cause her to go this week since Brian left. Gary’s football lie was not a focus the week before therefore it was not an issue for this week Frankly, I still do not believe this lie is of issue for him to be booted but interesting that we see Amy discussing the “lie” next week Frankly, this suggests nothing to me as an issue because of how it was completely dropped. As far as Amy’s ankle, an injury IS an injury, it is an event, it happened and it “on paper” can cause a problem. In repeating myself (as I often do) Amy is getting a wonderful edit and rightfully so; she is going above and beyond what some did last season and she “deserves” this edit but that doesn’t mean she prevails and that is key. Injury is injury and injured and sick people get booted. I am glad I was mistaken about a potential reason for her to leave (possible abrasive personality) She has endured but one can only endure so far Danni as I’ve already stated gets an amazing amount of visuals whether there is a reason for her to get them or not; obviously with what occurred, we would hear from everyone on the tribe, we always do when it comes to upcoming Tribal Council issues. During the recap we were told by Danni she hates to be the swing vote (referencing Blake’s vote) I question whether this becomes again an issue for Danni leading me to potential editing tools with.....

The Recap
Make no mistake, the recap is the recap but sometimes I do look at it in terms if it is paving the way for an upcoming event for that show but also potentially a future situation. In this week’s recap focus showed Judd vs. Margaret which was resolved, Stephenie’s losing tribe frustration which is changing for her Brian was shown in terms of his “bait Blake and Brian was booted and we never believed he was instrumental in Blake leaving as Danni and Gary were shown to be the ones more in control of that, Amy mentioning how she didn’t imagine how great this would be (after the swimming pool reward) Tough times fell on this tribe but Amy received the recap of the wonderful time (Is Amy’s wonderful time coming to an end?) and Danni mentioning how she doesn’t like to be a swing vote (Obviously part of the events but I will watch next week to see whether Danni finds herself in another pivotal position since with Brandon and Bobby Jon from her old tribe there and Gary and Amy from her new tribe there. If so, the recaps may be helpful in ascertaining upcoming issues and if Amy is booted, same
Fun Stuff and observations
Rafe putting his glasses on when Yaxha walked into Tribal Council; ready for his observations Rafe has knowledge now, it will be interesting to see how much he lets his tribe know
Judd at Tribal Council Only Lydia, Jamie and Stephenie said a quick “yes” to him about listening to others.
Judd’s big win when Margaret talked about his turning on the tribe.
Brandon’s exuberant praise of Amy
Monkeys, monkeys always around at the Nakum camp and snake shown over at Yaxha
What Lies Ahead
With Gary mentioning as long as there is no tie and Danni shown in recap about swing vote; I do question if we have this situation ahead and in light of how we see things playing out, it does not bode too well for Amy.
Bobby Jon and Stephenie seemed destined to be seen together again and if the characters are being developed how we think, Stephenie will win out over Bobby
Judd will be his own worst enemy and “should keep his mouth shut” aptly stated by Judd himself. Judd’s edit (I mentioned this in the vote thread) did not quite reach a crescendo yet but we see how it is building and building. Judd is very insecure with a hot head, he is starting reach the climax of his edit
Strength and Endurance The amount of time emphasizing brute strength again and how it appears to be somewhat detrimental is occurring quite often (Judd’s blow up and Jamie and Bobby’s blow up just last night alone) With the level of this occurring, our theme may certainly pan out that endurance is the key factor.
I recall how we mentioned last season that Bobby Jon and Tom always seemed to be matched up and we talked how we often see Danni and Stephenie matched up (which makes sense to a degree) One is being overt in her taking charge and one seems to be appear very discreet in hers. It will be interesting to see what happens when these two come across each other for any length of time.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 05:21 PM (EST)

41. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Wonderful post, Veruca!
Just posting that I agree about the beginning recaps. The recap does the job of putting the preceding episode into a compressed story form. They have a lot to choose from and they present a certain story in just a couple minutes, and that story always has thematic significance and reveals a set up for the episode that will follow. I think the recaps are the main tool they have to whip the footage into a continuing storyline ... until they get to the recap episode which then puts the entire first half of the game into a storyline.

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 05:32 PM (EST)

42. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 10-21-05 AT 05:35 PM (EST)
VS great observations, as always.
Last week was just all Judd all the time. Judd’s edit has certainly been building up to something like this, but even I was surprised by the magnitude. This appears to be his crescendo to his story line. As of now he is only a tool for someone else, most likely Steph, to push themselves further into the game. I think he will be redeemed somewhat, like Jerri, but when a future episode opens with him waxing prophetically on the top of a pyramid, he is gone. I am guessing he makes the merge, because “his tribe needs him”, but as the “strongest player” he could be the first to go.
Speaking of Steph, she really has set herself up in a good position. She has Judd and Jamie in front of her, Rafe and Lydia behind her, a pre-merge alliance with Gary and Amy, and a future target in BJ. I originally felt she could be an F2 foil, but I am beginning to think that maybe Steph can pull this out. It depends on the competition.
As for the other remaining candidates.
Brandon continues to receive the edit of a primary narrator. The tone is never too positive or negative. We often have narrators who last well into the jury stage and I think this fits Brandon well. He conversation with BJ at the beginning of last episode was probably important, but I am not sure why. I think he outlasts BJ, and maybe Gary as well.
Cindy’s edit has definitely taken a step up over the last two weeks. She has held a secondary narrator edit since the beginning of the show and her emergence could either be a sign that she will be an important player or she will just continue as second half narrator. I tend to lead towards the latter, because while I know I saw her more the last weeks, I just don’t remember anything she said. After I re-watch I may change my mind, but that is my gut feel.
I am still waiting for Danni to emerge. How long must I wait? Danni has been far more instrumental in tribal politics then we have been shown. She has received a lot a face time and I still think she has longevity, but we don’t really hear what she has to say. I expect a UTR player can win this year, but even when V was playing UTR we at least heard from her. We only see Danni. Regardless she is in a very good position. Like Steph she has protection in front of her and behind her. I am interesting to see what happens after the testosterone is removed from the game.
Rafe had a step up this week. He did win II so this may have been forced. Like Steph, Rafe is also in a very good position. He has plenty of targets ahead of him, Lydia by his side, and it would not stun me if Cindy and he also hit it off well. I have always felt that Rafe had longevity, but if anyone has emerged positively over the last couple of weeks, it is Rafe. We will see if he can hold onto this.
I was correct in suggesting that Gary’s occupation lie would re-emerge, but I was wrong in suggesting that it matters. Gary is still pretty one-dimensional and I think he is less important to Danni, than Danni is to Gary.
I, as well as everyone else, like Amy and Lydia. Amy will, most likely, be sacrificed. If she can somehow make it to the merge, she could do well, but she has just been so one-dimensional. It is going to be tough for her to make the merge.
As for Lydia, VS has correctly summarized her longevity. Lydia endured. She may be able to last to the 4 or 5 spot but I don’t see her winning and we will be sad to see her go.
If Steph should make it to the F2, Danni, Rafe, and Cindy are all potential partners. It should be interesting to see who emerges and how they are positioned against Steph for the final vote.
I also wanted to add one more fun quote.
During the RC
Brian is losing his leverage
ETA The difference between more or less is important

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-21-05, 05:54 PM (EST)

43. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 10-21-05 AT 06:17 PM (EST)
VS, you are such a wonder with this stuff and I find myself almost hanging on your every word! But, I've got to admit my thoughts on Brandon were quite ominous. It was made clear to us that Brandon was on the outside of the loop, so to speak, regarding the Blake boot. This, imo, is never a good sign. We are also being shown that BJ and Danni definately have bonded clearly with Gary and hold him in high regard, and most definately seek out his opinion. To me, it looks as though they are becoming more bound to Gary than to Brandon, leaving Brandon outside the loop again. To me, this does not bode well for Brandon's longevity....then couple that with statements like,
"People will flip and you’ll find yourself voted off and won’t even know how it happened.” That definately seems like foreshadowing to me. At this point in time I'm pondering Gary outlasting Brandon. And as popular as Amy seems to be possibly Brandon's boot could proceed hers as well?
ETA: I just wanted to touch on the Gary vote that Rafe gave for II. I thought this was very telling! To me it says that Rafe values Gary the most from his old tribe....could Gary reunite with Steph and Rafe and Lydia come merge time? While Gary was'nt in trouble with last night, it just seemed to say that Rafe values Gary the most....might this hurt Gary in his new tribe? I don't see how, as BJ/Danni are now firmly his supporters, perhaps they see that as an in for them all when the tribes merge...???

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-24-05, 06:57 PM (EST)

64. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

fp, Brandon's edit (like some others) is supposed to bring out the reaction it has intended; that he is unsafe; this may be to cause the viewers to not presume that more logical boots are intended but since Brandon's character editing is more rounded out than Amy's and Gary then editing logic dictates he stays a bit longer. This is why I was so obstinate about Blake; he had no depth. Amy is a very likeable character but in reality, other than her injury, has Amy been anything else? Gary has broadened a bit from the "lie" situation (I had already felt that this story was made out more than it should simply because of the nature of it) but this has been a main premise for Gary (and we see Amy broaches it THIS week which simply reinforces that Amy is more vulnerable than Gary but I already hashed over this )
Brandon has gotten a very nice edit in terms of confessionals and face time but one thing to point out is that prior to the season beginning; Brandon certainly was introduced that he may be a "character" Interestingly enough, he really has not turned out that way though I'm sure in all the footage there is, his "redneck" persona that Jeff eluded to in his interview pre season was there for the showing. In light of the fact that Judd reeks "character" Lydia reeks "character" (and so forth) if Brandon was not showcased as a character when he very well could have been is a concern.
Brandon also was shown to us saying that Amy and Gary were the most vulnerable "but he didn't know what alliances they had" Again, this elicited a reaction (as you say) that Brandon is on the outside looking in. But is he or is the editing making the audience believe this?

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 06:40 PM (EST)

44. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Great observations VS
As Judd was getting warmed up on his tirade Jamie reached over and massaged his shoulder, almost as if to say, Take it easy there big fella. I paid close attention to the reaction of his tribe mates during his outburst. At one point Steph and another woman, I can't remember who, were smiling and laughing under their breath. Rafe, contrary to his words, looked very intimidated. How many times did we hear Margaret mention, in one way or another, that Judd was his own worst enenemy? Can there be a more obvious case of foreshadowing? Jamie, smartly, kept his mouth shut. I also noted that Cindy was very diliberate with her words in camp and at TC. This is not the edit of someone who is going home next. She remained visible with no mud being slung her way.
Tribe Dynamics
We see two tribes operating quit differently.
Over at Yaxsa we have Brian being built up just before they cut his throat. Nakum's, was this highly charged tense drama. This disparity was made more obvious by TC's being held back to back.
Watching those two TC's, it was if Nakum had won the challange. There is a definate plan in the works. The big question is who's pulling the strings? Dani and BJ are obviously playing a different game than Brandon and they seem to have teamed up with Gary and Amy to form an alliance. This alliance should be successful for awhile as it hasn't been revealed yet. Looks like Brandon is on the outside, based on the Blake vote last week.
Jeff's quote at the end of Nakum's TC was dripping with sarcasam as well as some foreshadowing. Are there going to be Happy Days at Nakum? I think not. We are being set up for some very unhappy days, and I think Judd will continue to be at the center.
Odds and Ends
BJ and Jamie going toe to toe made for some good TV and really will not impact the game. It was interesting how BJ and Jamie viewed the incident so differently. Me thinks if they were on the same team that they would get along famously, and Jamie said as much.
Amy re-injured her ankle and gets praised by Jeff for going back into the challange. This remains her story line. We are certainly meant to admire her fortitude, yet were is her depth?
DRONES

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 08:45 PM (EST)

45. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Do you hear applause?
I love coming back and reading. Survivor remains, even after all these seasons, such a compelling story and I love reading what everyone takes away from it and the questions that come from the episodes.
fp I do want to broach one point that you bring up about Danni and Bobby's relationship with Gary and the how it may concern Brandon's longevity. Obviously I only know what I watch and I stick to editing speculation as I have found that in a greater amount of times, we have been correct in the final players (the order sometimes not but the editing is very conclusive; I truly believe this)
Brandon has been somewhat of a mystery as he has quite a number of features that suggest a very long term player. HOWEVER, the issue of strength is very "strong" this season which ultimately may not work in Brandon's favor. There is usually one or two edits each season that are perplexing and only hindsight helps
Bobby Jon was shown expressing his admiration for Gary and it makes sense; he also was very admiring about Tom as well. What interests me is why or why not are we not hearing Danni's expression of admiration for Gary. This may imply that Gary may be influential over Bobby but Danni is just influential. I'm not so sure who has the power here or rather what the editors are trying to hide in plain sight We haven't learned enough yet about Danni (as rosie) brought up in frustration and perhaps we are not meant to --yet.
Cindy has slowly been blossoming in large part to her expanding role in light of the vulnerability she faces and probably due to upheaval that will occur in her tribe.
In remembering Survivor Australia, the players that merged (yes, even Jerri to a degree) had a respect for one another that was extremely refreshing. I recall how each one at their final TC were very positive when they left and good natured about it. With the exception of Jerri getting surprised, the order (starting with Jeff's boot) was "somewhat" predictable but there was genuine regard for each other and that is somewhat how I see Yaxha right now which DRONES is discussing with respect to how Nakum is operating. Ultimately, I think their cohesiveness may ultimately win out. The Nakum tribe may fight their way harder but we see how "brute strength" is faring.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 09:50 PM (EST)

48. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Just a thought on Brandon:
There are two main directions he can be going in the near future. Either he will be chosen as a keeper over Gary and Amy and make the merge/jury, or his "insider becoming an outsider" edit will culminate in a relatively surprising boot--given that there has been no talk whatsoever shown us proposing a Brandon boot and that his old team has the majority.
My problem as to whether to take his ominous editing seriously is that it can also be explained as misdirection away from a Pagong series.
If it turns out that Brian/Amy/Gary go three boots in a row, that was predictable to the audience after the swap and is boring. The Blake boot was a nice shift, but what if afterwards the game went 1-2-3 old Yaxha. The editors would want to play up Brandon's "marginal" status in his alliance to distract from the extremely simple series of boots.
At the moment, I lean towards thinking that's all it is with Brandon right now--that he will make it to the merge and then have a relatively simple demise because he and his two remaining allies are outnumbered and seen as immunity threats.
I think BJ and Danni are trying to go forward with this new group and each player is of value -- but it's not in the cards for them to keep it together because they get whittled down. I feel like everyone on Yaxha has a positive edit really even if BJ is a little nuts, because they are playing nice with each other and they are becoming the underdogs. So we are supposed to like them and be sorry when they disappear--unlike last season when it was hard to be sorry for the Ulongs who just could not get their act together. The Yaxha are losing without being LOSERS.

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 08:57 PM (EST)

46. "A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

I've looked through this thread and the prior Players/Game/Editing thread and haven't seen any specific examination of what I suddenly perceive to be a huge tide of emphasis on a Sports And Sportsmanship theme. I'll go through and pick out the things that are really starting to layer this on, and see if any of you guys agree that there might be something to this.
First of all, the obvious in-yer-face stuff. Here we have Gary, the professional sportsman, who, out of all of them, is the most "officially" sporty of the lot, and yet combined with EPMB's love of irony, he's the one who most publicly talks DOWN the importance of his own sporting prowess.
And then we have Danni, probably his most immediate counterpart, the sportscaster whose job it is to observe sports and knowledgeably comment on them -- not to mention her own sporting ability which is clear to see in challenges.
And of course Steph, who is widely considered a strong sports player and who has made quite a number of references to the importance of sports both in this game and in life. Most particularly, I recall her lecturing smugly about basketball terminology and how some of the women were totally on the outs about sports.
Now, let's look at some player quotes, which I'm lifting only from this thread and the last Players/Game/Editing thread. No doubt there are more elsewhere, but this should be enough to illustrate my point. First of all, here are the players in their own words, from transcripts posted by Whole Lotta Rosie:
Brooke: I grew up on a farm, in a small town in Oregon called Hood River and spent a lot of time outdoors...camping, windsurfing, skiing, swimming, all that good stuff. I can be a girly girl at times, and also a tomboy, too. I do like athletics and sports and stuff. I'm not as much into shopping as most girls.
Brandon: I'd rather be out here doing this than, you know, plowing a field back in Kansas. Growing up on the farm was a lot of work. I mean, we never really got to uh partake in any of the school activities. I mean, like sports-wise...never really played much sports. I always wanted to play sports. You know, there's that competition. So I never really got to do a lot of that, which I kind of regret but you know. I mean the farm had to be taken care of and everything. I had to work on the farm.
Danni: I have a lot of guy qualities. I mean, some of my friends say I'm like six inches away from being a guy . They say, "You're more of a man than I ever thought I'd be." So, I just am such a tomboy, I mean, and my whole life alls I've ever wanted to do was play sports or go to a sporting event. And so there's just nothing really girly about me.
Jamie: I wrestled in high school and college. I played sports all my life but if I can make top eight in this, that's what we consider All American. That's my goal: to be top eight in this Survivor game. This is the ultimate challenge...dealing with other people. I made it this far, so I feel like I'm in the national finals right now.
A couple of personal observations from Outfrontgirl:
Danni I see someone we are supposed to admire because she can play sports, someone who will stealth through the alpha-male elimination and then maybe go on an immunity run. I see her as a Kelly Wigglesworth type. It doesn't matter if you like her, she ensures she gets the job done by keeping herself safe...
Brian A highly entertaining game-player who simply got the short end of the swap stick. He ended up with a bunch of jocks in a season where it's been muscles/sports ability that has value rather than puzzle-solving. In a former season where most team challenges had a puzzle component, I think Brian would have had a niche, but in Guatemala his physical slightness and East Coast educated background will be his demise.
So these items set the stage for my list of other occasions in which the Sports and Sportsmanship theme has been introduced and gradually layered on so that it's now building up into some kind of battering ram:
-- Judd being an "unsportsmanship" (god, what a tool)
-- Brian's exit, by immediate and deliberate editing contrast with Judd, the epitome of good sportsmanship
-- Some players who have grown up playing sports all their lives being seen to feel, amongst themselves at least, that they're superior because of it
-- Those who have never played sports being derided for it, not just because it doesn't win the kind of challenges we've had so far, but also because they're seen by the sporty ones as personally deficient in some way because of the absence of sports from their lives
-- Tons of emphasis on sore losership after challenges
-- Tons of emphasis on sore winnership after challenges (and by that I mean gloating, rubbing defeated opponent's face in it)
-- Several different occasions upon which one player has commented on another's lack of sportsmanship, only to be totally unsportsmanlike themselves the very next challenge
-- Emphasis on Stephenie being "an amazing athlete" according to Danni, who has an expert opinion on these things
-- Equal emphasis on Stephenie being a sulky, bad loser because she has such a high opinion of her own sports abilities and therefore must blame others for her losses
-- Remarks about Gary being practised at leading a team as a result of his professional sports background
-- Lots of attention to Gary's lie about his background in sports even though it continually seems not to lead anywhere, which leaves me thinking it's more about underlining the "Sports And Sportsmanship" theme than anything else
-- Stacks of emphasis on Amy not giving up despite bad sports injuries
As always, with an editing theme, this emphasis on Sports and Sportsmanship could either be straight up, meaning that a sporty and sportsmanlike person wins, or it could be ironic, meaning that one of the people who've have been UNsporty could win it. But I think it's the "sportsmanLIKE" aspect that's the more important of the two, because it applies equally whether you win a challenge or lose one. You can be unsportsmanlike in a win just as easily as you can be unsportsmanlike in a loss. I don't think any of our unsportsmanlike competitors is going to win this game but I think an unsporty but sportsmanlike candidate like Lydia could easily go all the way.
I categorize Steph, Bobby Jon, Jamie and Judd as unsportsmanlike and on that basis I am ruling them out as winners. I don't think the average viewer likes what he has seen of these players' behaviours in and around challenges, and back at camp after challenges. The fact that these people place an emphasis on sports but not on sportsmanship I think is the key.
I'll be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on this.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-05, 09:36 PM (EST)

47. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Loquatrix,
I very much enjoyed your post and I agree about the theme. It is very strong this season and I like what you point out about the superiority complex of the athletes. In prior seasons we have seen an emphasis on strong people who work out and are fit, but now "fitness" is less important than "sports." You can spend a ton of time in the gym and know nothing about sports.
The editors can't control whether the winner is sportsmanlike or not but I can definitely see the jury making an issue of it and dinging the "unsportsmanlikes."
As for Judd, he characterizes himself as a "weapon" -- "big gun" thinking of this thing as a war with sides rather than a team. He cannot understand "team" at all. As you point out, this season that is a bad thing.
The stupider the establishment is, the smarter the rebels become.
Establishment stupidity is the greatest spur to creativity in evolutionary history ~ Robert Anton Wilson

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-05, 04:47 PM (EST)

49. "What happens next?"

Last episode was something,wasn't it? Great comments everyone.
In what we saw at Nakum, I think the stongest image was Stephenie jumping in Judd's arms after the challenge. He's her new champion. Where does that leave her alliance with Rafe? We saw how uncomfortable Rafe, the intellectual, was at TC. He had the look of someone asking himself:"If Judd stands up and goes to Margaret, do I jump in to stop him or what?" He can't be happy in an alliance with Judd and Jaime.
At Yaxha, the most important scene was Gary saying in confessional that he wants to keep BJ even at the expense of his old tribemate. We didn't see the conversation Danni and Gary had concerning the choice they had to make between Brian and Amy. Why was the insider clip left out of the show? I'm fairly certain these 2 will try to reach F4 together. Rafe would be a smart choice to bring along but contrary to the first part of the show when Rafe was seen following Stephenie, will Stephenie follow Rafe? If she prefers to stick with Judd she will be colateral damage during the overthrow of the King(...Kong!)right after merge.

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echogirl 2120 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-05, 05:34 PM (EST)

50. "RE: What happens next?"

To me this was perhaps the most important thing to come out of E6. We are being shown the bond between Stephenie and Judd. We saw it after the challenge, we saw it during the picnic, and we saw it at TC. Apart from the vocal bullying, Steph and Judd are very similar. Throw in Steph's "gay" comment about BJ, and it's easy for me to see that she is going to bond more with a Judd type than a Rafe type.
On the other hand we could feel how uncomfortable Rafe was at tribal council. Obviously he was trying to be diplomatic, but you can sense that he really does not like Judd. And I happen to believe that Rafe is a very bright guy and see's Judd positioning himself within that alliance, probably ahead of him. To be honest, I'm unsure of how tight Steph and Rafe ever were. Rafe seems to have more of a connection with Lydia than Stephenie. I think Rafe is a smart guy and is sitting back waiting to make his move post-merge after a couple of physical threats are removed. Lets say BJ, Brandon and Gary are gone and only Danni, Judd, Jamie, Stephenie, Rafe, Lydia and Cindy remain. If Rafe is indeed 4th or 5th on the pecking order I can see him convincing Lydia, Danni, and Cindy to target Jamie/Judd/Stephenie. So far the only people I see getting a possible winner's edit are Rafe, Cindy and Danni.
The good sports take out the bad sports?

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-05, 05:48 PM (EST)

52. "RE: What happens next?"

The only thing I disagree with is if Rafe waits as long as you suggest (remember Gregg?), then either Judd or Jaime could go on an immunity run. He'll have to move right after merge and use the bond he has with Gary.

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echogirl 2120 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-05, 06:25 PM (EST)

53. "RE: What happens next?"

I don't think Rafe needs to act immediatly. Other athletic threats (Brandon & BJ) could be dealt with first so Rafe can wait. Act too soon and it could backfire. As for Judd being a huge IC threat? I don't think he will be. Judd only does well in brute strength challenges (tug-of-war, ball rolling) but hasn't fared so well in agility (obstacle course) or mental challenges. If anyone can possibly string together several IC wins it's Brandon. I don't see Judd or Jamie capable of doing that.
As for Gregg? Well yes he did wait too long because he actually agreed to boot players he needed (Coby & Janu) to win a majority.

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-05, 06:31 PM (EST)

54. "RE: What happens next?"

Excellent insight Loquatrix, OFG, Michel, and echogirl! You are all right on, I think! Yes, Steph does seem more in line with Judd, while Rafe seems very uncomfortable! This is going to be great as it unfolds! Can't wait to see it! I must say I've been thinking Rafe could be key somewhere along the way, and this could be it!
OFG, you may indeed be right about your thoughts regarding Brandon. I can see where CBS would edit him to look like a boot target to throw off the general viewer from the pagonging of old Yaxha!

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-05, 05:46 PM (EST)

51. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

LAST EDITED ON 10-22-05 AT 05:47 PM (EST)
Bravo Loquatrix
You have really hit the nail on the head with your sports theme. The talk of being in shape is only important as to how it relates to competiting in relations to sports. Judd talks about giving it his all as a formerfootball player. Gary is a former pro football player. Dani works in sports radio. Steph being refered to as an athelete. Amy being injured while competing. BJ is an intense competitor who gives it his all(not sure if he played any sports in HS). Jamie wrestled in HS.
This does not bode well for Rafe, Brandon and Cindy for the long run.
When talking about sports, I'm reminded of the quote, It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game. People place a very high emphasis on sportsmanship. Athletic competitors tend to be judged not just on their accomplishments on the field of play, but on their sportsmanship. This show has always placed a great deal of emphasis on how the F2 have played the game.
To me Steph and Judd are being edited as being unsportsman like. I leave out Jamie because he hasn't really shown this attitude as much(save for his face to face with BJ), or else it's been overshadowed by Judd. I leave out BJ as well because he is viewed as being intense. If you listen to how BJ viewed his face to face with Jamie you hear him talking about it as not backing down rather than being unsportsmanlike.
How these players compete, and more importantly how they react to competition, win or lose is going to be very important.
Nice job Loquatrix on picking up on this theme.
DRONES

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-05, 08:08 PM (EST)

55. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Loquatrix, yes absolutely I agree with your observations. I remember in Vanuatu how in discussing the themes, there were several "sub themes" (if you will) that had direct correlation with the broader themes. Sportsmanlike conduct also goes very well with the broader tone they are using about stronger vs. weaker players and strength vs. endurance. Last show there was indeed a heavy emphasis on their behavior in terms of their "physical" characteristics.
Amy shouted and screamed and it was beautifully taken because of her injury and accepted. Bobby Jon's outburst was redeemed in light of his confessionals, etc. of why he did what he did. Unfortunately for Jamie, whatever softness came afterward was marred by Stephenie's commentary and his association with Judd who is the epitome of bad winner and sore loser but I found when Gary mentioned Jamie's behavior (because it came from Gary) hindsight softened it a bit I suppose.
The other speculation I've been reading has been very thought provoking; I only hesitate to comment as I tend not to speculate who may align with who and what they may do in order to get in a certain position. It often makes my mind boggle and it tends to get in my way of following how the characters are being portrayed but that is solely my idiocy Speculating how different scenarios may come down the pike is yet another way of obtaining the means to an end as well
We KNOW Judd is going to hit his climatic moment; it is building
from the editing by him and what others are saying. We KNOW that somehow Stephenie and Bobby will have to interact due to the nature of resentment that Stephenie is showing. I still believe Jamie's early words about Stephenie will come into play and the propnecy would be fullfilled that Jamie can't win with Stephenie there. I still believe that there will be a relationship in some aspect between Danni and Stephenie (Loquatrix, good sport/bad sport perhaps?) I still believe that Amy is getting a beautiful edit in light of last season but that should not be confused with an edit of longevity.
Next week both tribes are to spend some time together based on the preview they showed at the end of the road. It will be interesting to see how Stephenie receives Bobby and how Judd receives his former tribemates. The interactions will also help to perhaps thread together some future alliances that may happen as well.

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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
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10-24-05, 11:38 AM (EST)

57. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

but I found when Gary mentioned Jamie's behavior (because it came from Gary) hindsight softened it a bit I suppose.
I think Gary was also being diplomatic about Jamie because Rafe was sitting there listening.

Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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mimo 563 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-05, 08:25 PM (EST)

56. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Not that I'm an editing expert in any way shape or form (just an average viewer) but I would have to agree with you guys, EPMB seems to be putting a strong emphasis on sportsmanship--particularly in the last two episodes. The contrast between the two tribes at TC was very striking. On one hand you have Yaxha complimenting each other and demonstrating what seemed to be a difficult vote. (Despite Jiffy's comment at the end, the compliments did not strike me as hypocritical.) On the other you have the dysfunctional Nakum with the intoxicated bully picking on an older woman about 1/3 his size who was obviously going to get booted anyway--all this with the obvious support of at least two tribemates (Jamie and Steph.) The scene was really distasteful.
However, if he is trying to send a message on sportsmanship, then I would think that the next boots would come from Nakum. Otherwise we would see that bad sportsmanship is rewarded, and I doubt that is a message he would want to send. Then again maybe that's just wishful thinking....
Even paying attention to what EPMB wants us to feel, it's been really hard for me to not get drawn into the characters and see them as we are meant to. Brandon (for some undefined reason) is a really positive character for me (he's actually my favorite), as are Cindy, Amy, Rafe, Lydia, and even Bobby Jon. Although Bobby Jon is shown as extremely competitive (even agressively so), he comes up with phrases that make him more likeable than say Jamie. The tribal council in which he said that it was hard for him to vote someone and end their dream really stood out as very poignant. Very different from when Judd flipped. I believe we were meant to dislike Judd for flipping, but understand why Danni and Bobby Jon voted the way they did. Brandon, despite keeping his word, didn't come out a fool, but rather is seen as honorable.
Another question I had is why we weren't shown Rafe's reason for giving the immunity to Gary. Apparently (according to subsequent interviews and comments), Brian had communicated to Rafe that he should give it to Gary. However, this was not shown at all. Are we meant to assume then a stronger connection between Rafe and Gary than really exists? Or is it that Brian's comminication to Rafe was somehow against Suvivor protocol and EPMB didn't want to show someone disregarding the rules? This might explain why he showed Brandon praising Amy and Danni & BJ speaking well of Brian--so that the viewer might be led to believe the Rafe got the impression that Gary was the most vulnerable and voted accordingly.... For some reason this has been bugging me....

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
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10-24-05, 01:41 PM (EST)

58. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Maybe when the tribes unite, we'll learn why Rafe gave II to Gary. As a player, I would be concerned that Gary and Rafe could
have a previous strong alliance which is possibly why Brian didn't want his own name on the card. Brian could have worried
about how others might view a connection with Rafe, as well, Brian thought himself safe.
I wonder whether the preview shots, of Amy and Gary,are meant to
have us believe Gary is vulnerable, when it's really Amy who's
vulnerable? Amy is shown challenging Gary, and I'm wondering if
he decides to cut her loose for this. If Gary's thinking long-term, he doesn't need someone on the jury who could never overlook his lie. Whereas, Danni has never forced the issue!
What sticks out in my mind about Brandon, is his EP1 comment about BJ being "dumb" (it's prolly bc I'm just a little defensive about BJ!). Anyway, Brandon is also one of my favorites, but I'm wondering whether BJ "outwits" Brandon in the
end? Last EP, as Brian displayed his TC vote against Bobby Jon
the camera focused on BJ, as Brian announced that "this is the
outwit part", a funny bit of irony!
I love the idea of a sportsmanship theme! Very clever, esp. in
relation to Judd's explanation of " a good sportsmanship"!!!
(What is that.....a vehicle used to transport some good sports?)
Editing has me hoping that the worst sport, Judd, will get off
of my television....NOWWW!! I find Judd is almost as creepy as
Fairplay...ew...with his winks, inappropriate smiling,lying, etc. Whereas, Jeff explained that Judd was someone he "liked
immediately" So, I'm wondering whether editing will show Judd
as a good sport or a poor sport when he finally leaves. At this
point I think we're all expecting Judd's departure to be explosive. That said, he could be a player's choice for the F2 foil.
ETA: What does "bust a wedge" mean?

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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10-24-05, 02:36 PM (EST)

59. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Hello surviette: "Bust a wedge" comes from football. During a kickoff, the team receiving the ball puts 4 or 5 blockers in front of the ball carrier. Those blockers are the wedge. The team trying make the tackle, counts on a player who will run straight into the wedge to bust it up. Since he is sacrificing himself for the team, that player is very appreciated. Another sports reference.
As far as Rafe exposing his alliance with Gary, they know he had to choose someone. I'm thinking the old Nakum were happy he didn't give it to Brian so they won't hold it against him. In fact, I'm thinking that Danni and BJ will continue to cooperate with Gary to use the bond between Rafe and Gary and maybe save themselves if they are outnumbered at merge.

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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-24-05, 03:16 PM (EST)

60. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

FWIW, Brian told Rafe to give immunity to Gary because, if Brian's plan worked, Gary wasn't going to get any votes anyway, and Brian didn't want a random immunity pick messing up his plan.
Brian's 3-2-1 plan was that Bobby Jon and Danni would vote for Amy, and Brandon would cast a single vote for Brian, while thinking that Brian and Gary were going to vote for Amy too. Meanwhile, Brian, Gary and Amy were supposed to vote for Bobby Jon.
I'm surprised they didn't show us more of this ahead of time, if Brian really believed it was going to happen that way. But I'm not entirely convinced that Brian was as blindsided as he says he was, because even during the episode he said "any one of us could leave tonight."
We don't know if Rafe gave Gary immunity solely because of Brian's request or if he would have done it anyway.

Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-24-05, 04:32 PM (EST)

62. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Hello Michel: Thanks! BJ's comment makes so much more sense now!! But, why am I suddenly reminded of Brianna and the "PICK"?
Thanks also to BR(below)I was certain Brian was overthinking and
unfortunately was burned. I wonder if the unity between Danni,BJ
and Gary (and possibly Rafe) could have something to do with
their faith? We saw a little of this, but perhaps much of it
is being left out.
I still think there is much more to the sports theme. Even
some of the challenges this season might have been created with the hopes of showcasing, or exposing, certain cast members area of expertise. I also think Margaret's exit has been the closest we've seen to someone quitting, yet I think she was the best sport she could have been under the circumstances. Quitters are often viewed as poor sports too and I doubt we'll see any this time.

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-26-05, 06:37 AM (EST)

68. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Thanks Michel! I had no idea what that meant either! But he sure has a way with words, doesn't he! Actually, once I knew what he meant, I think that BJ had some very encouraging and sincere comments to make regarding Brian...No bad mouthing others like his female friend, Steph! Batman is not a complainer, nor a gossip!

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-26-05, 01:35 PM (EST)

69. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

HOLY BATSUITS! What an uncanny resemblance to
Michael Keaton! I mean look at him! Well done!!

I thought during BJ's confrontation with Jamie
that I heard BJ yell "THAT'S NOT NICE!!"
It made me laugh, and it seems fitting, but does
anyone know what BJ actually said? (Does BJ even know
what he really said?) As you put it, fp, he does
have a "way with words". But, seriously, either
BJ is extremely camera-conscious, or he's really
a true gentleman. Gotham would do well to have him!
Maybe Brandon could be The Boy Wonder?

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Rasta 210 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-26-05, 03:12 PM (EST)

72. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

I listened to it a couple of times, and still couldn't make out what BJ said exactly.
It was something like:
You shouldn't <unintelligible>
That's not nice!
That's not nice!

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architecturegirl 227 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-24-05, 04:13 PM (EST)

61. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

I agree with the sportsmanship theme, but I'm not so sure that it means anything negative for Rafe, Brandon, and Cindy. While physical strength is important, I disagree that these three are not competitors. This game requires a good blend of playing physically, mentally, and creating relationships. The player that does that best wins. Simply dominating physically without playing the rest of the game in a smart way will be shown to be the downfall of the overconfident (Judd).
Whereas, we are shown Amy as an obvious hero for pushing on for her team, not giving up, yet being humble about it. I think that someone like Danni has the physical qualities, is obviously playing strategically, and is cultivating bonds with others. I think we'll see this sort of player be shown to triumph over the "bad sportsmanship".
That said, I just feel like we are being set up for the under the radar players who dont make waves, but contribute consistently, and play smart, to succeed this time around. The mighty will fall sort of thing.
I think that Rafe is in the best position of anyone personally. With the good relationships he's forming, and I believe trust he's built with many people - if Gary trusts him, a

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architecturegirl 227 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-24-05, 05:40 PM (EST)

63. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Sorry about the incomplete post - my computer froze up while I was posting it, and apparently half of it got posted, and the rest didnt. Here is the full posting:
I agree with the sportsmanship theme, but I'm not so sure that it means anything negative for Rafe, Brandon, and Cindy. While physical strength is important, I disagree that these three are not competitors. This game requires a good blend of playing physically, mentally, and creating relationships. In Survivor, these are the real competitors. Simply dominating physically without playing the rest of the game in a smart way will be shown to be the downfall of the overconfident(Judd).
Whereas, we are shown Amy as an obvious hero for pushing on for her team, not giving up, yet being humble about it. I think that someone like Danni has the physical qualities, is obviously playing strategically, and is cultivating bonds
with others. I think we'll see this sort of player be shown to triumph over the "bad sportsmanship".
That said, I just feel like we are being set up for the under the radar players who dont make waves, but contribute consistently, and play smart, to succeed this time around. The mighty will fall sort of thing.
I think that Rafe is in the best position of anyone personally. With the good relationships he's forming, and I believe trust he's built with many people - if Gary trusts him, and we see how much Danni and BJ trust Gary's opinion, I think he'll be trusted by them as well as his current tribe. An enviable position.

Finally, I think Cindy is playing much smarter than we may all think as of yet. Has anyone else noticed that in a lot of shots she is right by Stephenie's side? I dont think this is a coincidence. I think she knows this is a bond she needs to try to cultivate since for now Stephanie calls the shots. This has just jumped off the screen at me the last two episodes, and I think its very smart of her. If she can get Stephanie to keep her around until the merge, she'll have A LOT more options. Personally, I think both she and Rafe go far. And she's no slouch physically even though she isnt dominant in that respect. Her edit is VERY similar to Vecepia's in my opinion, especially watching both seasons at the same time.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-24-05, 07:12 PM (EST)

65. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

I'm so glad to see people "new" faces posting to add to our collective speculation.
Cindy has been an interesting character though my thoughts on her longevity are still under suspicion. Prior to the show starting, my main concern with Cindy was simply the fact that in light of her living (dealing with animal life) she may have trouble in the cutthroat portion of this game. Those who work with animals often say they prefer animals over human beings (and for good reason ) Animals are basic creatures and their lack of complexity is something that often draws a "certain" kind of person to that field. Cindy may work socially in this game much better than I hope OR she may suffer as a result of it. However, this is all speculatory obviously. With editing as the major tool used here to judge longevity, we don't attempt to take into account individual immunities, twists and so forth (these elements could save ANYONE!)
As of now, I'm still waiting for further clue from Cindy though we have already discussed that Cindy has emerged somewhat over the past few episodes with a couple of notable statements. However, it is hard for me to look past the massive edits that Stephenie, Judd, Rafe and Lydia put forth to ascertain if Cindy is near the end (although your point architecturegirl that someone who is playing their game close to their vest may do better is duly noted ) However, at this point, my doubt stops me from thinking she could be the last person standing and as others know about me through the seasons, I get very obstinate when I have felt a pull about someone's edit.
Rafe is someone we all have felt very positive about in terms of longevity. It will be interesting to see if Jamie's demand to Rafe (have an opinion!) will be something that Jamie wishes he never stated. Rafe is a very long term character from all his confessionals and where he is positioned though we discussed in the first thread that because this season's aura seemed to dictate a woman winning; obviously he would not then be *my* selected winner

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architecturegirl 227 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-25-05, 11:16 AM (EST)

66. "RE: A question for the Esteemed Editing Spoilers"

Thanks for the welcome VS. I've been watching survivor since the first episode, but I hadnt checked out the message boards until this season. I love this season for the simple reason that people are doing the non-conventional thing, making it really interesting!
I go back and forth on Cindy. I definitely think she goes farther than one would think at first, but whether she ends up like a Kim P from Africa, or like a Vecepia is something that I think will become more clear in the next few episodes. I think she'll definitely be around for a while still though. I do think though that the subtle shots of her next to steph so often may be a story that plays out down the line.

I think that the group of Judd, Jamie, and Steph are being set up for a fall. They're just being edited too over-confident to me. While one or two of them may survive, I think that the group itself is doomed.
Right now if I had to put my money on anyone though, I'd put it on Rafe. He seems to be the one person that isnt really alienated from much of anyone, and wont be percieved as a threat to any of them.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-25-05, 09:10 PM (EST)

67. "Music and episode 6"

Firstly I'd like to apologise for how late this is coming. I've been tied down with uni and actually couldn't get a tape of the show till tuesday night (ugh).
Secondly I'd like to apologise for how little insight the music gave this week - but the show was 1/3 TC, 1/2 challenge and post-challenge, which only leaves about 1/5 for anything musically interesting. The challenge never says anything interesting, post IC never does anything interesting because the music is so wound up in the impending TC, and TC never says anything because the situation is so contrived. So basically all I have to go on is the tiny bit at the beginning where judd and marg were bitching, and I missed most of that on the tape that I got! Argh, this week was hell.
Anyway, in that opening bit I heard lots of light (but extremely tribal sounding percussion) underscoring Judd's confessional. The fact that this stood out is interesting because:
a) most of the music is tribal anyway, so why did I notice THIS particular theme.
b) Judd was sounding like a fool at the time.
The extremely tribal sound here made me think of Judd as primitive - and he evidently is the missing link between man and ape. I hate Judd, the music made me hate him more.
One interesting thing that happened in the challenge occured after the screaming match between the two sea lions. Afterwards, the music went very very quiet - but did NOT resolve. There is a term in music called a 'perfect cadence', which (in other words) gives the end of the piece a sense of completeness. This DIDN'T happen here. As soon as the screaming match was over, the strings played a rather dissonant pause that did NOT resolve the fight. The music sounded almost pregnant - this fight will continue, that isn't the last of BJ VS Jamie.
One last thing - VS, I'm beginning to 'like' Cindy more than Danni. Maybe I like her more personally, but she seems a little more 'present' than danni, and just slightly more sneaky. I have no doubt they both make it quite far, but Cindy is edging out Danni in my opinion...
SO, sorry about the late post, sorry about the brief post, and sorry that we have to put up with Judd next week...

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-26-05, 02:24 PM (EST)

70. "RE: Music and episode 6"

applejack, your 2 cents worth is always worth the wait! Your insight into the musical score is just phenomenal and I really think that it adds so much to the overall editing of the show. No doubt about it, VS runs an extremely thorough and complete editing thread, with all of the wonderful input from everyone!
The extremely tribal sound here made me think of Judd as primitive - and he evidently is the missing link between man and ape. I hate Judd, the music made me hate him more.
Thought you might want/need a little graphic that conveys your sentiment to the tee!

Sure hope no one is offended by this, it's only meant to be fun

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-26-05, 05:38 PM (EST)

73. "RE: Music and episode 6"

LAST EDITED ON 10-26-05 AT 07:08 PM (EST)
Very funny FP, and by the way, a great SOTS.
The Jamie/BJ/Steph storyline is very interesting and once we reach the merge I expect this will be thrown into the forefront. The most obvious conclusion is that BJ falls at the hands of Steph and Jamie. However, the early Jamie/Steph riff gives me some cause. I really like Loquatrix’s handle on sportsmanship as a theme this season, but I am completely unsure whether Jamie or BJ fairs better in regards to this theme. Neither player is going to win, but for some reason I find the debate of who goes first intriguing. I think MB does as well.
I am beginning to think that Judd isn’t very nice (insert smiley face here). But we do need some second half drama and Judd should provide it. Once the Jamie/BJ story is finished Judd should come to the forefront.
ETA
Yaxha's last TC reminded by a great deal of Gina's exit in season 4. They didn't want to do it, but numbers got the best of her.
Brandon and Lydia both remain interesting players. I am almost beginning to believe that Brandon is getting the cute girl edit like Colleen and Elizabeth from the first two seasons and making it to the final 5. At the same time he could also be getting a “Sarge” narrator effort, just squeaking into the jury. At worst, I see him lasting a couple more episodes but could potentially make it to the final six.
I mentioned this well above, but I truly find Danni’s edit perplexing. MB tends to develop the strategy of the winning player from pre-merge to post-merge. In past seasons we have seen a follower to leader strategy, Hatch, Tina, Brian, or a leader to follower strategy, Tom, Chris, Ethan, or a follower/follower strategy, Vecipia, Jenna, Sandra.
I originally thought this would be a follower/follower season. In the past F/F seasons the winner is usually UTR, but they remain very visible. In re-watching season 4 I was surprised how much we saw and heard from V. Yes she was definitely UTR, but looking back, in hindsight, it was not terribly surprising that she won. In Sandra and Jenna’s case they both were developed early, and then went UTR once all the drama began.
Cindy and Rafe have both received enough of an edit that they could come through as F/F winners. However, while we have been given a great deal of heavy handed editing that predicts a UTR winner, at the same time, we really have not been given enough leaders to ensure the second half drama that would indicate a F/F scenario.
IMHO Danni has not received enough of an edit to win as a follower. As such, for she to win, like Tina, she must emerge as a leader in the second half. From what we know about current tribal dynamics and just the numbers of old Nakum and old Yaxha, she is going to have to shake things up a little to even survive.
I would like to say that I have officially past the point of no return. Not only am I predicting the fate of future players based on editing but I am predicting the editing as well.
This will, most likely, end badly.
Great job to everyone, especially VS, as always. Drones, I really liked your comments this week, but then again I always like your work. Applejack, great job on the musical themes, this is huge. Keep it up; if you have to post three weeks after the original airing, it is fine by me.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-26-05, 08:01 PM (EST)

75. "RE: Music and episode 6"

I've never loled so hard in my life! The visual was just perfect!

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Rasta 210 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-26-05, 02:28 PM (EST)

71. "RE: Music and episode 6"

<Afterwards, the music went very very quiet - but did NOT resolve.>
I noticed that too. The footage shifted to a shot of Gary and Brian watching the confrontation with shocked expressions on their faces. Whatever the meaning, we're supposed to realize that this was a significant event.
Maybe it's foreshadowing a future showdown between Jamie and BJ. Or maybe (and this could be reaching) it could indicate an epiphany on the part of Gary: that he has just witnessed something that changes his tribal point of view. What did he say at TC about Nakum's sportsmanship?
Then again, maybe it was just the editors' way of saying "WHOA!".

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-26-05, 07:30 PM (EST)

74. "RE: Music and episode 6"

applejack
As everyone else mentioned, your posts are always insightful (along with everyone else in our thread) and extremely interesting regardless of the time they are posted. Your mention of the musical progression during the "face off" is something that obviously we all noticed by the posts and I certainly agree that the muscial succession you describe fits nicely with our theory that this is not quite the end for Bobby and Jamie and a "final" showdown is forthcoming (with a little help from Stephenie perhaps?)
The music perfectly encompassed Judd at TC and the negative feelings it brought forth in you in conjunction with his behavior also solidifies what we think will happen with Judd. As Margaret said, "Judd's biggest enemy is Judd" Judd's constant emphasis of how valuable he is is clearly the markings of a very insecure man and unlike Rupert who did things to make everyone love him, Judd is doing things where it is repelling people. Both are typical behaviors of those who are riddled with insecurity.
The contestants on this show bring out reaction from all of us so for you to begin to like Cindy says something much like we have been saying there has been an emergence from her which last season we summed up was a good thing. If someone goes from fairly invisible to slowly emerging it could be a sign they should be here for a bit. Since a lot of us already ascertained the "feel of a woman" being victorious after the first episode, it only matters now which woman would it be.
As hard as it is to do, I have (for the most part) stopped investing feelings in the players and it turns out that it has helped to a degree to view the editing objectively. This is actually why I asked everyone last season their reactions to the TC that Janu got booted and also how they felt about certain items that happened during the show.
After Thailand is when I noticed the difference in my perception (with Brian winning) Interestingly enough, it was because he sold the audience "a bill of goods" as he did with the contestants. I was almost angry at him and then realized how talented one must be to completely disguise your real self. After that, I vowed to never let my personal likes/dislikes to intrude again in viewing these players. It clouded my judgment immensely for two different seasons.
The fact that Cindy is becoming a person to you on this show is what is intended and I also venture it may be indirectly involved with the dislike towards Judd. Action - reaction perhaps
Since I have yet to see anything drastic occur that has changed my opinions since the first show, I'm not inclined to change my thoughts as of now. Merger certainly sheds new light on alliances and tribe dynamics. As far as the winner goes, I never bog myself down with how the winner ACTUALLY GETS THERE but rather what editing tools seem to be employed to show the journey. Sometimes it is incredibly blatant, other times it is redemptive and other times it is quiet and unassuming and always there will be misdirection woven in
Human behavior, while unpredictable is often not If one is shown emotional then they will probably play that way and often make bad decisions. If one is shown uncertain, then they will probably remain uncertain. If one is seemingly invincible, it means others will try to eliminate that invincibility. If one appears insecure, then their decisions will be based on how they can make themselves feel good. We saw this firsthand during All Stars
One thing all the winners had in common (whether it was during the entire game or at a pivotal time) a crucial decision or enlightenment (if you will) was made clinically and rationally and that is something to keep an eye on regardless of personal feelings involved.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-26-05, 08:10 PM (EST)

76. "RE: Music and episode 6"

Wow - if I were articulate enough to post like that maybe I'd be easier to understand!
You put everything so eloquently, yet so simply as well, VS.
The fact that Cindy is becoming a person to you on this show is what is intended and I also venture it may be indirectly involved with the dislike towards Judd. Action - reaction perhaps
This is what I'm worried about - I don't know how to dilineate between my liking for Cindy (she's my personal favourite) and whether or not I DO actually think she will win...
Argh! Personal opinion clouds everything!

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-26-05, 10:33 PM (EST)

77. "RE: Music and episode 6"

As far as the winner goes, I never bog myself down with how the winner ACTUALLY GETS THERE but rather what editing tools seem to be employed to show the journey. Sometimes it is incredibly blatant, other times it is redemptive and other times it is quiet and unassuming and always there will be misdirection woven in
I think this really gets to the heart of what we do here on this thread of yours, VS. Whenever I'm trying to discern undercurrents in the editing in an effort to look into the future and see where it might all be leading, I try to remind myself constantly that the material we see during the broadcast is there for one of many reasons and may not necessarily be an "editing clue" at all. Footage is going to be included in the episode...
1. Because it happened, and it impacted gameplay in some way.
This is the "Well, duh!" one. :grin: Anything that directly impacts the continuity and therefore eventually the outcome of the game will be shown, whether or not the character concerned is going to have an overall positive or an overall negative edit, or is going to be in the game a short time or a long time. An example here is Judd being "heroic" in challenges even though we all hate him the rest of the time. They can't NOT show Judd winning a challenge for his team, even if his long term characterization is going to be "Satan". But notice how they negatively foreshadowed his wins by including the confessional where he whined like a little crybaby about "I wanna be the hero, waaaa!" Ah, the benefit of hindsight, eh?
2. Because it happened and it was more interesting than endless hours of castaways gathering water and branches.
I find myself forgetting that sometimes an incident is included in the broadcast just because it happened and it was something to entertain the viewers other than the boring daily chores of life around camp.
I have to continually remind myself that the editors must create an hour's worth of telly out of three days' worth of ordinary people being 99.9% ordinary and boring. Thus, if someone picks their nose and a cameraman catches it on tape, chances are it'll be included in the episode. Not because it means that the nosepicker is a disgusting human being who is being set up as the perfect Final 2 Foil or will win triumphantly at the Carry A Pea In Your Nose challenge or anything like that, but just because it happened and it was different from the stuff we've already seen the castaways do a million times and therefore nosepicking becomes good TV.
Example: Bobby Jon and Blake peeing together. That footage was otherwise completely meaningless, unless you want to count "increasing Blake's face time before his boot" (which doesn't in fact address the "meaning" of the footage, only that it was footage of Blake to use).
3. Because it happened, and it made someone look good that needs to look good.
It didn't have to be shown as it didn't impact gameplay in any way, but Lydia's dancing at camp was included because it highlighted Lydia's usefulness around camp (raising morale - the woman's name is Morales after all!) and the fact that people like her. EPMB loves Lydia and wants the viewer to love her too. Then again, this segment also falls under category 2 "It happened and it was interesting footage to include," so it's arguable. There are plenty of other times when otherwise meaningless footage has been included just because it shows a good side of someone who needs to be likeable.
4. Because it happened, and it made someone look bad that needed to look bad.
By contrast, this is the classic Negative Edit. This is stuff that we don't have to be shown, because it doesn't impact gameplay in any way. It's included just to direct our feelings about the character concerned. A good example of the classic Negative Edit would be Blake being shown disrespecting women and being a narcissistic frat boy every time he opened his mouth to speak, but as he explained afterwards this was often in the context of bawdy conversations with Amy, and that part just wasn't shown. Blake was otherwise a very popular character -- good looking, great in challenges, loyal. He had to be depicted as a bad guy for us to accept his boot that night.
5. Because it happened, and regardless of all other factors, the viewer needs to see it in order to understand what's going on.
Here's a good example of this one: As much as we're all supposed to despise Judd, we had to be reminded clearly that HE was the one who provided the beer and hot dog feast. We need to understand why the team keeps him and sends likeable Margaret home even though he's obviously a dangerous psychopath. But notice how this essential information is communicated to us in a NEGATIVE EDIT kind of way: Judd is shown rubbing the others' faces in it in a totally "unsportsmanshiplike" fashion -- "Enjoy your hot dogs and beers that I provided," he snorts, or words to that effect.
If Judd were someone who needed a positive or neutral edit for some reason, we would have had some other character doing what I'm sure someone like Rafe would have done -- give a confessional in which he praised Judd's win of the challenge, but rued his inability to hold his drink or some such. But instead we were shown Judd publicly being beastly while the necessary information about why he is kept was communicated -- a thoroughly negative edit and the average viewer now anticipates Judd's demise with great glee. We cannot maintain this level of hatred for too long without becoming annoyed, so I can't see him staying long. His edit is wholly negative with no redeeming qualities, no balance, no complexity. The thought of him being in the game a long time is exhausting to me!
But the most important thing about editing is all the stuff...
...that happened, but was left out of the episode, because it made the winner look too bad or a loser look too good.
The overall character, positive or negative, of someone's edit is about what is left out just as much as it's about what is put in. This is the hardest type of editing to identify, because obviously it's not there so you can't see it! However, it's also probably the most important type of editing there is. The stuff that's on the cutting room floor.
Many contestants come away from the show saying "So much happened that wasn't shown!" and the material was inevitably not shown because it would have detracted from the overall message EMPB wants us to understand about the Final Four individuals.
An excellent example of the Positive Cutting Room Floor edit is this: Lydia cheerleading at challenges and being shown to have a positive effect on the team. Remember how she yelled encouragement to Steph and someone else in the tomahawk-throwing and they were both instantly seen to break the tiles? But didn't we learn from Insider or Early Show that Steph actually threw 20, 30 times? Uh huh. Mm hmm. We were shown Lydia being directly and immediately and instantly responsible for their successes. She couldn't compete herself, but she won the challenge anyway, hoo-rah!! Editing is just as much about what is left out, as what is put in and what was left out here was any footage whatsoever that would have disconnected Lydia from that win. It certainly seems plain to me at the moment that we're being very firmly invited to love Lydia. Either she goes a loooong way into the game, or she's EPMB's favourite personal friend evar!
Looking back over this post, the editing is strongly giving Lydia an edit of "she ain't sporty, but damn, she's a good sport" and we've already pondered that concept a bit. I am liking Lydia's chances at this point and will be disappointed if she gets the boot -- the editing is working on me. ;)
But yes, as you say VS, there are tons of different reasons why any bit of footage can be in an episode or left out of an episode in the process of crafting the story of the Final Four. Trying to figure out which footage belongs to which category is why we are here, I guess. :grin:

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-28-05, 02:45 PM (EST)

78. "Ep 7 I have a dream...to be on the jury"

Ok, I didn't post last week bc I really didn't have much to say about last week's ep that wasn't already said.
This week, I think we saw the continuation of the softening of BJ that started last week. He had a bad edit during the PP alliance and then voting off Blake but he has been shown more like he was last season over the past two weeks. He will still have a showdown with Jamie...although I now think he will probably lose this. We WERE SHOWN his confessional that said he has a dream to be on the jury...everyone else says they want to win...so I think bc we were shown this conf., he does indeed get his dream realized (just barely) and we goes at F9. Jamie will be the cause of targeting BJ...I thought maybe BJ would win this battle with Jamie (with Steph's help)...but I'm not as sure now after that confessional.
Another thing I noted was Cindy's first negative edit of the season. She was shown as the "female" Jamie grousing on about going to the pool party...although she did enjoy herself once she got there (as opposed to Jamie). Now, VS always says our winners are seen in a negative light at one time or another...I'm not sure if that was what was going on here, but it sure did make me sit up and take notice of Cindy really for the first time and not in a good way...and in a bit of irony..........
Surprisingly, VS, Danni started to grow on me last nite. I still am not crazy about her but I have better feelings about her. I thinks she is shown as playing a good game. She mentioned about BJ having his chance and was very diplomatic with Amy. (But you could see she was very uncomfortable lying to Amy..there was no way she was going to vote BJ yet.) I think her talk about BJ having had his chance is foreshadowing of her argument to the jury with Steph sitting next to her. I think this may be the deciding factor with much of the jury.
Although, she may have trouble voting out people who deserve not to be, like Brandon, she was shown as a better player than Brandon in this regard. Whereas, I think Brandon's demise will be because of his inability to align and scheme, Danni was shown as able to deal with this (albeit not as well as someone like Rob C or JFP) (sometimes difficult) part of the game.
Also, we saw maybe the beginnings of a friendship btw Steph and Danni at the pool party. It sounded like they both have older bros. and were comparing notes. Steph (i think) also was the one who asked Danni how old she was.
But the thing that really came out to me was the impending doom of the men of the new merged tribe. Beginning last week in ep. 6, in ep. 7 and in the previews to ep. 8 we have been bombarded with conflict for the men. BJ v. Jamie. Jamie v. Steph Judd v. Jamie???(it's not clear who Judd was talking to in the previews..), Danni's comment about BJ already having his shot (but nothing since ep. 1 about Steph having that same 2nd chance) BJ's dream of making jury (but not dream of winning)...all tells me that the men (sans Rafe) will self destruct. They will either stumble over each other to vote the others out first and/or the women will help them to do it.
As I said in another thread, this benefits Danni the most. She is the only woman coming to the merge with Yaxha and she was an Old Nakum player. Therefore, she will be shielded by Gary/BJ/Brandon and then will also have time to connect with Cindy/Steph/Lydia and Rafe. I think she has the social skills to do this and if all the men are gone (sans Rafe) after f6, she has a very good chance of pulling a Kelly W. immunity run to final 2.
Jamie is continued to be seen as a sourpuss...he uses the pool party to continue to plot and play the game but he was the only one not having fun and I'm sure others noticed this...Steph states she won't back down from him and I have no doubt she will not. Jamie's hope is to take Judd to the F2 with him--good idea--but how he will get there, I have no idea. he (and/or Judd) would have to win a lot of immunities imho.
And can anyone make heads or tails of the several shots of the birds with worms in their mouths feeding the other bird??? I don't think that was used before. Although the ants with big leaves were back at the beginning before they showed Nakum after TC. As I think the majority of the endurers (cindy, rafe, lydia, steph) were on Nakum,(danni is my other endurer) I think the placement of the ants there was appropriate.

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-28-05, 03:21 PM (EST)

79. "RE: Ep 7 I have a dream...to be on the jury"

The bird(s) with the worm could be meant to represent
Danni (or Yaxha) and the chocolate. Danni seemed
instrumental in using the chocolate to help make
friends with Steph (or Nakum). I haven't rewatched
the episode yet, so I'll stop here (for now).

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-28-05, 04:10 PM (EST)

80. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

I would be flabergasted if this actually turned out to have any significance. But Lydia is followed in the opening credits with the king of the Mayan Jungle, the Jaguar.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-28-05, 04:54 PM (EST)

81. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Editing to add that I always write prior to posting and in doing so, I sometimes end up reiterating something that has been stated because it already composed and other posts are then posted. Including a nod to emy since a lot of what she has stated is discussed in my LONG post ahead
I had a difficult time keeping up with all the dialogue this episode; there was so much to listen to and so much to weed out as important or just necessary for the course of events. In any event, I am looking forward to everyone’s opinions because there was an “aura” if you will, of character development and scenes that were specifically intended to elicit an opinion about the character.
The recap for the episode the week before included the Margaret vs. Judd showdown (expected) and Judd’s comment about “the old tribe not coming back” (I sense there is going to be a major story contribution about the regrouping vs. the dismissal of old tribal lines, the Jamie vs. Bobby Jon showdown (potential upcoming issue), Amy getting hurt (expected in light of her demise) Rafe winning the Idol (expected due to course of events) Brian rallying to boot Bobby Jon (ironic in that the same situation occurred last night and is being established as an upcoming situation) Pronouncement that Gary and Amy were also at risk (set the tone for last night) Brandon mentioning about Amy and Gary’s vulnerability (again sets tone, was Brandon’s confessional used for any particular reason in light of the major elevation of his character last night?), Cindy reiterating Judd having to watch his mouth (considering Judd was extremely neutral for Judd last night, I sense more foreshadowing) Interestingly enough, Brian giving Gary immunity was not highlighted as a significant event.
Although Amy no longer (and unfortunately) does not serve a purpose for our editing pleasure for character longevity; I always tend to give a little salute to those who made such an “editing” impression on us. Clearly, Amy was not only a favorite amongst her fellow contestants but Mark Burnett was equally impressed. Amy probably was the biggest surprise to me based on pre show character “composites” regarding her personality.
Tribe Dynamics
Nakum
Nakum certainly creates an impression very different from the Yaxha tribe. The two tribes have a vaguely remniscient quality of the Ogakor and Kucha tribes. For the most part we saw a lot of relatively decent feelings amongst Kucha and Ogakor was filled with underlying tension and power struggles. Big contrasts amongst these tribes.
Judd
Judd, while relatively “back burnered” last night was meant to stay on our radar in light of the commentary that Jamie made. Aside from the aftermath of the Tribal Council, Judd was actually one of the more positive presence last night. Comments about his ”bark” and ”I’m not a loose cannon” are expected and of course, false Judd is apparently also trying to convince himself that he isn’t as bad as he may come off with his “little outburst”
His most interesting comment perhaps was ”Hopefully, I’ll be laughing my a-- to the bank while she...........” No million dollar quote here everyone especially in light of the fact it came after his assuring the audience and his tribe that he is really just a teddy bear and that the comment was made in conjunction to his residual anger at Margaret
Since Judd was actually toned down this episode (and I question what comments he may have had regarding the impromptu pool party with his ideals of the old tribe not coming back) Judd’s is not in any danger yet or else the crescendo we have been talking about regarding Judd would have continued in this episode. Cindy’s recap of his mouth getting him in trouble is setting the tone for next week’s apparent tirade and at that point, we can presume he will again commence his climb to his demise.
Jamie Certainly, Jamie was at the forefront of this episode and it was certainly the attempts of the show to portray him negatively. While we usually designate those discussing strategy as a positive sign, it is not usually a good sign if it is done while simultaneously being shown in a negative light. The irony is that Jamie had a valid point about consorting with the enemy but it was meant to be shown badly (especially in light of the fact that Yaxha was shown to have benign reasons to have the party) Jamie states:
”Judd’s got a big voice and he’s a big guy, he scares a lot of people. Makes me want to keep him closer to take him to the end because I’ll get all the votes and he won’t get any” ](Considering Stephenie doesn’t scare so easily and Cindy seems more annoyed by Judd, I would hazard a guess that Rafe and Lydia are probably those that Jamie may be referring to since he also does interact with them
”I don’t want to go; they are our enemies (Incidental statement only to know Jamie’s mindset)

”I was being quiet; I was figuring everybody out. Wondering if Amy and Gary were with them or waiting for merge to try and get back with us. and "Worried about Stephenie getting along too well with other people and forming bonds then" and "Here for business and everyone should be also” (A LOT of information we can glean from these confessionals of Jamie.)
Jamie advised us that Yaxha is the enemy; his wanting to know about Gary and Amy may have been more of a question in determining where his position would be IF Gary and Amy should want to come back to the fold. Very important is his concern about STEPHENIE forging bonds with Yaxha. For someone who has an ongoing edit with Stephenie regarding their “issues” with each other, Jamie certainly is concerned about Stephenie. Much like when we hear that someone needs to check with a certain person (thereby indicating that individual has power) this statement by Jamie reflects that Stephenie has the capability of turning his comfortable Nakum situation where he is concerned.
”We stayed too long; getting way too friendly over here. Kinda made me sick, we were all getting along so well We can perhaps ascertain with all the thin layers regarding old tribe/new tribe being placed down that this issue should become very important in this game and a potential pivotal moment
”I’m still stick to the game plan with you guys though” (It is all well and good to state that you plan on sticking with the plan but only if everyone else does
”You guys can all vote my a-- out you know!” (Enough said?)
As we all have agreed, Jamie is a very intriguing character who is obviously being established now in light of the merger and his obvious opposition to any relationship with them. Couple this with his brewing tension with Bobby Jon as well as Stephenie, Jamie is not exactly “smelling like a rose.” Realistically, ALL of Nakum had a reaction to Yaxha’s arrival with Jamie’s being the one designated to highlight and negatively at that. (Stephenie and Cindy’s reactions were not as blatant) therefore editing may be telling us that Jamie may fall victim perhaps by his very own tribe
Cindy Again, Cindy’s edit is interesting and sometimes difficult to ascertain. While she is relatively a quiet character, when she does state something it doesn’t necessarily carry an explanation about her thought process with it. This is something that makes defining a character’s longevity difficult. We have two choices; either there is nothing that comes out of the statement or situation to merit an explanation or it is being withheld for a surprise.
”I’m not interested in their silly little game playing” (while walking with Rafe/Lydia)
”Don’t let them sway you with their peace offerings” (On the way to Yaxha in the boat)
”I didn’t want to go, it’s stupid and unnecessary; it’s hot and a long way to go to hang out with people we want to get rid of but I have to show interest because that is what the tribe wants to do”
Cindy, like Jamie was purposely shown to be negative about this visit with Yaxha even though three members used to be on her tribe. The difference between Jamie and Cindy’s thoughts is that we can surmise that Jamie has no interest because he is concerned how this will affect the “plan” and probably also because of the tension between himself and Bobby Jon. Cindy’s comments were not explained however We just know that it is stupid in light of the heat and length of trip and some potential unknown animosity she feels. The audience is left to their own conclusions. Considering that Bobby Jon, Danni and Brandon were ALL on her former tribe, these emotions she displayed seemed a little perplexing. Perhaps we can deduce she felt completely low on the food chain with her former tribe and somewhat vulnerable in her current tribe and wants to maintain distance. (therefore not wanting old bonds to reform) We can only speculate her state of mind. Cindy’s characterization, although validated by Jamie’s discussion did have a negative tone and while we may “like” Cindy, the impact was generally meant to show her negatively (Jamie only validated her and was extremely negative himself ; the others were fairly neutral or positive and we received nothing from Yaxha that this was a strategic ploy) Cindy, luckily (unlike Jamie) was smart enough to keep these feelings in check during the party.
That being said, Cindy was also extremely integral in the challenges ”Keep it going, you are still in it!” and of course, her showing at the Immunity Challenge (with the notable slow motion taking of the idol and clutching it close to her As we have discussed over the last few episodes, Cindy’s emergence is increasing which bodes well though again, I do wonder, if like Jamie, there is an issue of old tribe/new tribe involving Cindy as well.
Stephenie Once more, Stephenie adopted a more neutral tone to her character instead of the over the top bitterness and arrogance she has displayed. Naturally, circumstances dictate she adopts a better tone, they haven’t been downtrodden by loss Pieces of that attitude were seen here and there though......
”Chocolate was the main reason I was coming. I was like hell, yeah I’ll go swimming in your pool and eat your chocolate” (In light of the fact, Stephenie has been established in a certain light to the audience, this comment, (by someone else) may have sounded relatively harmless yet the reaction I had was somewhat condescending in nature) But then we hear her reaction about Jamie’s negativity and the audience is supposed to agree (obviously if you like Jamie, you may not feel this way ) Couple this with her enjoyment at the party and her interaction and she came off fairly positive this episode. Later again we hear from Stephenie ”You were so shady!” along with the exasperation from her (and others) regarding Jamie’s statement to vote him off ”We’re not going to stick to the game plan because we went to a pool party!” and ”What is wrong with you? You are losing it in Guatemala!” and naturally:
”........there could be a clash between he and I ‘cause I can’t take it!”
Stephenie’s edit is remaining true to form , clearly someone of importance at her tribe and definitely being shown in various lights She is usually the one shown announcing decisions and always commentary from her. What is interesting is the lack of commentary about her with the exception of Jamie this week (being concerned about Stephenie getting too friendly with Yaxha) which is ironic considering his first episode confessional about how he’d be able to win with her here. One would have to believe that the others on her tribe have discussed being with Stephenie, a former player and how it could hurt them or benefit them. This will be very interesting to note when it happens and at what point in time (since we are seeing this issue being visited about Bobby Jon currently)
Rafe and Lydia I am grouping these two together in that nothing substantive presented itself this week. For the second week in a row, Lydia was relegated to no presence again which is only notable in the fact that she was such a presence up until that point (again, some of her presence was specific to the fact that she was boot candidate and it had to be shown in conjunction with showing what team spirit and enthusiasm she has to make the audience realize why she kept being passed over to be booted) My only concern for Lydia with regard to “final longevity” (as I know that many of us questioned a potential win from her) is that usually in editing the characters that end up winning, this is not quite a pattern seen. We usually see a slow climb or a consistent character in terms of visibility and discussion, or a character visually prominent if not necessarily heard from yet (generally speaking) For someone to be overtly thrust in the camera’s spotlight and then virtually shut down completely has downgraded her success in terms of final status An example of this is the pool party. Lydia, of all people the audience would expect, was completely ignored in terms of how she enjoyed it (or not) This is a woman who has been shown to us making the best of the island and being enthusiastic in so many areas yet all we heard is a slight agreement from her when Bobby Jon commented to her. Even Rafe’s final gratitude, Stephenie’s final gratitude and Judd’s initial enthusiasm were more palpable than what we received from Lydia. Typically speaking, Lydia only has a story when she is in contention to be booted and the audience has to be shown that she should be kept. More than likely we will see this again but absent from any issue on her going, she is not heard from

Rafe, on the other hand is still receiving good face time even with situations that are essentially frivolous (the cards) We hear from Rafe about camp life, we hear about tribe dynamics and so forth. The only item left that we haven’t heard about is HIS vulnerability, yet. In fact, like Katie last season, when Rafe fumbled in challenges - particularly the earlier one with grabbing the items off the rope, we never heard any aftermath directed at him when that is something that is usually deemed necessary to discuss. That bodes well for Rafe (and we see that Rafe continues to be close to Stephenie and while Stephenie may be his “brawn” Rafe is more than likely her “brain”
As we already concluded, Rafe is extremely diplomatic and appeasing with those who are having issues ”We have to!” (in response to Jamie stating he is still sticking to the plan with them) and just the right amount of warmth with the other tribe at the pool party. I still go back to Jamie telling Rafe to “have an opinion” and question if this will be part and parcel to a decision about Jamie. That notwithstanding, Rafe continues to be in a very good position for long term playing and if I were to believe a man did win this, Rafe would be a very strong contender but I am very stubborn as we know
Yaxha
We learned so much about Yaxha and yet so little as well. Yaxha still has an aura of mystery surrounding these players though we see more definitive thoughts about the tribe itself. This is interesting because over at Nakum, we have much more insight into those players as their personalities are much stronger but we are not clear yet on the hierarchy.
Bobby Jon Dear Bobby Jon Such a nice, simple guy who, (if I subscribed to the “bringing back players in some fashion” theory of Survivor) I am glad to see get the opportunity to try one more time. Last season we all agreed that he tries and tries and tries.........and just can’t quite succeed Bobby Jon is clearly being edited now to reach a certain point in this game (and it isn’t the final two )
”I got a long way to go........just gotta be tough and know there is a gold rush at the end of the rainbow”
”....majestic, through the jungle...... I’ve never done anything like that before and will probably never do it again (about the zipline)
”Today was about fellowship..... the chiefs of the tribes would go and smoke and they would be at war later on”
(Foreshadowing? Bobby and Stephenie essentially introduced as “chiefs” of their respective tribes..)
”If we don’t win and we do merge, we’re gonna be a mess. Outnumbered by two people and they’re gonna pick up right off. This is it! This is it!” (Again, hints of what is to come or can something or someone stop this from completely happening?)
”This is worse than Palau, just so close man but you just ain’t there” (to Brandon) and ”I’ll feel real bad off if I don’t make it to the jury but you know what, that’s life bro.” and.......
”I want to make it to the jury; it be a dream come true; no one gets a second chance; I just don’t want to blow it” (Again, Bobby’s dreams fall short and when there is discussion about getting to the jury, this is what happens. Bobby is such a straightforward, direct and simple character that it is possible that Mark Burnett and company are simply stating the obvious for Bobby, he will make it to the jury)
So clear in thought is Bobby like last season and making the same mistakes as we assumed he would. ”The only answer is what kind of deal did you make with somebody on day 3 or 4. I don’t know about anyone else but for Bobby Jon that is the only answer”
At this point in time, Bobby received a huge increase to his edit and this was specifically done in order to start the beginning of the end for Bobby Jon. The facts are that Amy was clearly in danger, she as much said so but for suspense purposes doubt needed to be placed elsewhere and conversations like the one Danni and Amy had are no doubt chopped up effectively for those purposes. This is not to say the events did not happen but they are manipulated for the desired, immediate effect. Therefore, one questions what is the point of editing it this way and since it was such a big part of Yaxha last night, we can conclude this is something we are to note and remember as it serves a bigger purpose.
Gary The “lie” that just won’t die Another moment of the issue that is a non-issue but persists in keeping the audience aware of his identity (or lack thereof) Truly, it is clear that as a person he is not a “character” but his edit is still mainly one dimensional. Gary could be perceived as a threat solely based on his entire self (mature male, athletic, leader, friendly, involved in both tribes, etc.) yet again his only characterization is the threat of his “identity” (shame really as I think Gary would have been very interesting fleshed out more)
”No negative comments....” and “I don’t want to jump in between Bobby Jon and Jamie”
”Those three are tight....” and ”Danni and Brandon are running the show. If they decide Bobby Jon, I’m with them.... and "If they are looking for loyalty, I got to show them loyalty...” and ”If you got Danni, you have me”
Other than the above along with his remarks at Tribal Council, Gary was relatively low key. I’m a bit surprised we didn’t hear more from him about his position in the “pecking order” rather the focus was entirely on Amy and Bobby Jon. One would suspect that at some point during that entire length of time, Gary spoke about being picked off (in some fashion) unless, of course, he knows something about his position that we don’t. In any event, Gary’s streamlined editing doesn’t necessitate end results and the many themes surrounding strength and endurance and weak and strong may be crucial in why Gary is not long term.
Brandon I think Brandon has such arresting visual shots because he has such interesting visual shots With that said, Brandon continues to be a key narrator and has let us in with more thoughts of how he plays, thoughts on the tribe and the journey
”Pigged out on chocolate........ will remember today for two things, rip cording through a jungle and the most chocolate I ever ate” and ”God, I hope I can hold that down” and ”You form alliances but then you vote out people who may deserve to be here more than other people”and ”I’m conflicted because I have my alliance with Bobby Jon but Gary and Amy may deserve to be here a little bit more because he already had his shot” and ”It’s taken a toll on my mind. It doesn’t say in Survivor rules you have to deceive, manipulate, cheat and you don’t even have to make alliances. You’re doing this stuff to get one step closer to a million dollars and it’s like you are selling your soul or something” and at TC ”The hardest part is justifying why you vote them out. You made alliances but on the other hand the person may not be deserving in your alliance”
Brandon had extremely intense remarks to make about the game and the issues it can cause some players and particularly himself. Brandon is another “character” who has pleasantly surprised me in terms of what was pre-conceived and what has been fleshed out. Unfortunately at points where Brandon needs to make tough decisions, we see from him they ARE tough decisions and a crucial element of this game is not allowing your decisions to be affected emotionally. Brandon is on a significant journey and tells us stories and that is usually not a good component for an end player. I do enjoy watching Brandon observing though. His face is inserted at key moments and nothing needs to be said. At the pool party we saw Jamie’s surly expression and then his confessional about WHAT he was doing and WHY. During the same period, there was a cut to Brandon observing as well but we didn’t need an explanation; it wasn’t necessary. Brandon appears to be the audiences eyes; we almost know why he is shown at that time With that said, emotional toll is not a good sign and it is no secret that the “Kansas Superstar” is shown quite often excelling in challenges; Stephenie is not thrilled with strong players and Brandon may not have the “stuff” to strategically move ahead.
Danni Danni received some more unusually placed close shots with certain expressions that weren’t completely necessary. While Danni was relatively elevated a bit in her face time, events surrounding her birthday and her involvement with the TC dictate such.
”You got the lead, just don’t mess up!” (at the challenge) and ”You know...I would hate to vote Bobby Jon out of here, last time he didn’t get to the merge but nobody has had that chance” (to Amy) and ”I thought it wasn’t fair they came back; such a big advantage for the two of them” (to Amy) and ”Hardest decision. I want to make sure we are all together on everything” (Note to self: who is “all” when it appeared that she solely went for counsel with Brandon) and ”Bobby Jon and Stephenie had a chance to play the game before and none of us had” (to Brandon) and ”....part of the game; giving your word and keeping is GOING to be hard in this game”
Also, a very nice slowed down shot of Danni after winning the Reward Challenge looking extremely happy with her hands to the side of her face and (applejack will assist with the music at this point) while Danni and Amy were having their talk, notice that Amy states that what she can bring to the game is the outwit part and ”there is no one better on this island” At that moment, the camera goes straight to Danni and we hear, ”You know....(with a pregnant pause) whereupon she starts discussing Bobby Jon. I found this fascinating in terms of who really knows how to outwit the best on the island.
While we didn’t hear much else from Danni, I am suspicious as to why especially considering it was her birthday party and her idea. All the contestants have inconsequential confessionals to fill up space and I did find it interesting that Danni did not get that. Again, it may not mean anything or it may mean something. Notice that Danni acknowledges that deception in some fashion is a necessary part of this game and while she may not like it she is not “selling her soul” and her future tense of keeping/giving her word was subtle but heard.
Danni is also growing out a bit more and it appears her name is the one that is always mentioned when key decisions are being made DESPITE the fact that Danni herself is shown going to others about those decisions. Again, I have not yet changed my mind since the first episode since there is no one else as of yet to change my mind.
Notables
Quick shot of Rafe at seeing Brian was voted out; he did not look entirely happy nor expectant of it.
Jeff (at challenge) “Get together, hug now; you got it together” (Lydia and Stephenie firmly attached?)
Jeff “Rafe, not giving up!” (Second time he has said that about Rafe at a challenge)
Danni and Stephenie shown chatting at the pool party which comes right after Jamie’s watchful eye and immediately is followed by Jamie’s discussion about Stephenie getting too close to others (We have already discussed quite a few episodes back that Stephenie’s and Danni’s meetings at the challenges seem to demonstrate a potential meeting in some fashion and this scene helped reinforce that possibility)
Jeff “A one in ten (shot of Brandon) shot at a million bucks (shot of Stephenie)” (Will be interesting to see what happens to Brandon at the 10 spot ) but then
Jeff “Judd and Brandon on top of each other” (back to back?)
Jamie throwing the puzzle piece on Stephenie’s shin (even at a challenge and by accident, the issue is there )
At Tribal Council upon Jeff stating they are going to be merging we see Brandon and Bobby Jon somewhat shocked and somewhat nervous faces look towards one another, Gary was NOT shown close up at all and Danni (upon Jeff’s words) had a small smile playing across her face
Jeff “I am convinced that you really have become a close group; hopefully that will help you.......” (or not?)
Another sub theme that has been rearing its head now is deserving and not deserving Again, I must mention the complete differences in these tribes. Yaxha talks of deserving and bonds and cohesiveness and the pros/cons of tribal lines and being mature and Nakum doesn’t think much of good sports or how they mesh together or being diplomatic and mainly chalked off old tribal lines (as an overall aura since the stronger personalities are sticking out) One feels that at Yaxha there are calm waters and at Nakum a tidal wave is brewing. How they mix this together will be extremely interesting.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-28-05, 09:43 PM (EST)

82. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Wow Vs, you really outdid yourself this time! I know you warned us your post was long but I got so absorbed, I almost burned my dinner!
Where to start? Maybe with Amy only to add that it was indeed surprising how different she was from our first impression eventhough we weren’t shown her humourous side which many tribemates commented on.
I agree with everything you wrote about Judd, Jaime, Bobby Jon and Brandon and since the big boys are going next, I won’t add anything.
There are however 3 key scenes that were shown that brought a litle more light on the end players: First, we finally saw how Danni operates and just how important she is when Gary told Amy: “If you get Danni, then you have me”. All decisions go through her but are never discussed in group. Always Danni with one other person. She has placed herself at the hub of all decision making. That puts her on the inside track in the race to the finish line.
The second scene that made me pay close attention was Cindy’s confessional. I was expecting her to welcome a chance at talking with her old tribemates so close to merge. Instead she’s doesn’t want to go mingle with the ennemy. You say we were left to draw our own conclusions. Here is mine: She has somehow secured her position on Nakum with the decision makers there, meaning Rafe and Stephenie. That alliance hasn’t been revealed, could it succeed? She has some ground to catch up, but don’t we always see her running? She is in very good athletic shape and could be dangerous in endurance challenges. (Endurance being one of the themes you indentified).
The third scene was Stephenie’s confessional about Jaime. I expressed concern earlier that Stephenie could be colateral damage if she stayed too close to Judd and Jaime. It was important to see she still has her eyes opened to the danger Jaime represents. It was equally good to see her with Rafe playing cards. She needs his input.
Rafe wasn’t really seen in this episode. The only curious thing was his reaction at seeing that Brian was booted. He still has very good potential but we need to see him strategizing.
As for Gary, I’m not sure what to make of him and now he could be considered in a double minority: 3 to one in Yaxha and 6 to 4 in the merged tribe. He either goes next or at F6 or F5, I guess.
That leaves Lydia. Is she still there? After receiving her due, she’s become this season’s pawn and will be booted once her vote isn’t needed.

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
10-29-05, 12:24 PM (EST)

83. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

RE: THE DESERVING AND NOT DESERVING sub theme
Back on Palau, BJ and Steph fought to claim their DESERVED spots as the F2 Ulongers. I recall Steph
stating "because we DESERVE it best". I believe
they felt as if they were most DESERVING bc they
tried so, incredibly, hard. As a viewer, I felt as
if BJ did NOT DESERVE the denial of a merge
and that his opportunity was cut short (after all, he
was not voted out).
In determining which lucky cast members would be given
a second chance (in Guatemala) I would assume the criteria
was based on popularity. Part of BJ & Steph's popularity
grew from them playing hard, against impossible odds and
never giving up, which perhaps makes them best-DESERVING?
Also, viewers felt robbed because we weren't able to see
what could have happened if BJ & Steph had merged "properly".
After the first Guatemala show aired, I heard many negative reactions i.e. "they" shouldn't have done that, those two already had their chance, it isn't fair to the other
players, etc. Anyway, in Survivor World, the huge
controversial issue was whether BJ & Steph DESERVED
a second chance. The fact is, who would, or even should
turn down a second chance such as this?
It's obviously very intriguing to the producers to watch
as this unfolds, just to see whether a previous player
could win against new players. I'm sure it will also be
"like a dream come true" if one of the players makes jury
and the other makes F2! Then, it could come down to a
past-player having control over whether or not another
past-player DESERVES to win.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
10-30-05, 03:37 PM (EST)

84. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Surviette, the deserving/non deserving most definitely is becoming an issue and the fact (as you mention) that Bobby and Stephenie were included in this season for that very reason is a nice issue to contend with for everyone there. While they received a second chance, they were considered very deserving players last season but should that carry over?
We may see this issue grow to be quite a subject for argument as the contestants get ahead. We know Stephenie is going to be there for awhile. After the first episode it was clear that she was established for a long term edit whereas Bobby didn't appear to be and now with his dreams of being on the jury, that solidifies what we already knew.
Rafe wasn’t really seen in this episode. The only curious thing was his reaction at seeing that Brian was booted
michel, as I mentioned in my prior post and obviously you saw it as well was Rafe's reaction to Brian being gone and ONLY Rafe's reaction. Why Rafe? Why not Lydia who was shown to us to be quite close to Brian? Rafe's reaction was probably shown in light of the fact that he gave Gary the immunity on Brian's request (however, we as the audience were not aware of this) so if Rafe's expression with respect to editing was put there on purpose, Rafe may be pivotal in some decision process coming up This is all speculatory in nature based on things picked up (which as we discussed and Loquatrix expanded on so incredibly) or things not shown.
At this moment going into the upcoming episode, Jamie's negativity and fear of a play going array has been established firmly, Bobby's vulnerability as well, Brandon's conflict of voting, Danni's understanding of the need to position herself, Judd's concern over his self esteem as the big man on his campus, Cindy's concern about old tribe alliances, Stephenie perhaps protective of her leadership role being usurped and Rafe may find himself not being quite so diplomatic. Lydia, in all this, just needs to lay low and she'll be fine

I can say this with two tribes merging. there is always a matter of power struggles because most times the one leader from one tribe does not want the leader from the other tribe around any longer. As far as the editing reflects Stephenie has ALL the power at her tribe (Rafe's whispering in her ear nothwithstanding ) I recall in our first thread we considered to think like Stephenie and what would she want? Does she want her position taken away and who from Yaxha is most likely to threaten her in that regard and not from what we are seeing but what SHE believes?

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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-30-05, 10:54 PM (EST)

85. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 10-30-05 AT 10:57 PM (EST)
VS,

I think that any attempt to analyze Stephenie’s priorities has to begin with one overriding fact: she is a Sagittarius. And that means that she is not a “leader” (if one defines “leadership” as the art of acquiring, consolidating, owning and effectively projecting … power).

A great historical example: the Sagittarian, Winston Churchill.

Churchill (at the beginning … and, sadly, again at the end … of his tenure as the savior- of- last- resort of a decayed sovereignty teetering on the brink of annihilation) was himself a politically powerless hack: a failed, alcoholic “leader”.
He was, however, in the crisis of WWII, a genius at cajoling, co-opting, maneuvering and manipulating the powerful: using their resources to first shield, and then to advance, his (and his nation’s) own independent interests.
And no, I don’t mean to equate Miss Stephenie with Sir Winston. For one thing, I doubt that she’s ever been (or ever will be) as routinely eloquent or regularly inebriated as was the Prime Minister …
But the comparison is, I think, valid.

And so, when we see Stephenie miscast as a “leader” (as we do now), we see a Survivor who is her own worst enemy. However, given a protective buffer between herself and the jungle (a surrogate power that permits her the freedom to pursue her goal sans the pitfalls inherent in her ownership of it), the lady is capable of cutting a mean swath through the mess.

And, to her credit: she knows it.

So, I would answer that the former Yaxha who most threatens Stephenie’s preferred position (to the right, rear and ear of a male Leo) is Danni. And the former Nakums who in all probability make her equally antsy are Cindy and Rafe.

Note: I agree with you wholeheartedly. All Lydia (God bless her little deceptive body and soul) has to do for the moment (until Stephenie discovers … hopefully, too late … that she is a she) is lay low. Because Margaret was quite right: Stephenie is pursuing the same course that she did in Palau. But, this time, she (perhaps) has that Leo. And, because of that, whether she is, this time, making a “mistake” is still, I think, an open question.

So, if Stephenie is supremely confident of Gary’s protection/loyalty, I think that we may see a short recess in her campaign to rid her camp of every other contender for it and her cooperation in a (perhaps) Judd boot.

But, if she isn’t, I would expect her to go after the most vulnerable of the aforementioned three with a vengeance: I think that she’ll attack Gary only if he proves to be incredibly “retarded” …
PS: I hope you'll forgive the Astrological references. I'm usually successful at keeping them safely penned elsewhere. And I was headed there when I decided to catch up with your thread, first. And then this was such a fantastic question that I couldn't resist attempting an answer, first.

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-31-05, 07:21 AM (EST)

86. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Great thoughts there, Georgianna. I tend to agree with your foretelling of Steph's actions....and definately with your assessment of her and her Sagittarius ways. Thanks,
fp

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
10-31-05, 12:22 PM (EST)

87. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

VS, when a question is so clearly stated, the answer becomes evident. Who on Yaxha does Steph believe can take away her power?
We know Danni is the leader but Steph isn't worried about competing against any other woman. BJ isn't a leader. Brandon is dangerous but doesn't have leadership qualities. She'll take care of him later. GARY IS THE THREAT.
Since he's been on NuYaxha he has survived 2 votes despite being perceived as the stongest player in the minority. Steph has to figure he made a connection with the other tribe and probably betrayed Brian. Now, he'll try to consolidate his position after merge. It might be stupid to vote him out since it will bring original Yaxha down 4 against 5 but aren't we placing too much importance on original tribe? Afterall, they've been with the new tribes just as long if not longer. Steph likes her new tribe much better.
Gary hasn't done much in challenges up to now but isn't this the time to step up? His stenght and leadership abilities are evident. Steph will want to get rid of him first.

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MDSkinner 716 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-31-05, 04:44 PM (EST)

91. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

>>Who on Yaxha does Steph believe can take away her power?
>>Steph likes her new tribe much better.
>>Steph will want to get rid of him first.

Well, it seems to me that in the editing one thing has been made clear and based on this thread it seems that you all agree. Steph, seems to be the focus at least in terms of narration, etc.. Which, I firmly believe is just a matter of MB/See BS playing off of her current pseudo celebrity status.
However, this thread almost assumes that Steph is the one who will be pulling all of the strings when the merge happens. Why? It seems to me that if Danni/Brandon are brought in to even just mingle with the other tribe that Steph will essentially be the same, if not in a lower category than BJ at least in the deserving/non-deserving role. Steph made the merge in the last round of Survivor. Steph, even though she was outnumbered 9-1 still had a decent chance of making some serious noise in the last round of Survivor. BJ, never had this chance, since he never made the merge. What is the thought process behind believing that now that they have merged that Stephanies stock will not drop drastically because people like Jamie/Danni/Brandon etc.. pointing out that Steph has already had her chance.
The editing has definitely made Steph a narrator of sorts, but I am not sure that the editing is tremendous judge of how things will go when dealing with Steph/BJ. This may be a bold statement, but I would not be in the least bit shocked if Steph is not booted off very soon (I.E. two weeks from now) and that MB is just getting all he can from her being part of the show. I am not suggesting she would get the boot this week, but next week or the week after would not surprise me in the least.
Just some thoughts. It seemed odd to me that all of this talk focused on Steph and how she will get her way now that the merge is happening in terms of bootees. That does not seem quite so likely to me.

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Quiddity99 244 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-31-05, 06:16 PM (EST)

92. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

>Steph made the merge
>in the last round of
>Survivor. Steph, even though
>she was outnumbered 9-1 still
>had a decent chance of
>making some serious noise in
>the last round of Survivor.
No she didn't. She lasted the first week because everyone felt Coby was so annoying and wanted him gone first. She was going to be voted off unanimously the next week if Janu hadn't quit. And with Janu gone the next week, she was voted off unanimously, as expected. With Nakum's 8-1 advantage, Steph never really had a chance last season. That was one of the reasons why she was so popular, because she was such an underdog.
I would agree however that she has a much better chance this season.

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MDSkinner 716 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
11-01-05, 08:35 AM (EST)

101. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

>>With Nakum's 8-1 advantage, Steph never really had a chance last season.
It is fair to say that I overstated the fact that she had a chance in the last season of Survivor, as you are right she was the serious underdog whom everybody loved.
But my point is, that I do not think that the Danni/Brandon/Jamie types on this round of Survivor are going to give a rats *** about that. They have alreay mentioned that she had her chance, and I would not be surprised if very quickly they do not start making those same types of statements now that we have merged.
I guess I just do not see Steph as invincible as everyone else does this round of Survivor. She is a narrator because she is already a star and people like her. I have a difficult time seeing her being in the final four, as I can not imagine that this group would allow her to go that far.
Then again, I could be all washed up. I have been wrong about everything else this season.

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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
11-01-05, 08:38 AM (EST)

102. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 11-01-05 AT 09:01 AM (EST)
Hi!, FP
Probably because I share her Sign and am employed in the same general field, commissioned sales (but there our common ground, unfortunately for me, ends ... ), Stephenie's appearances in Survivor have fascinated me. For instance ...

Her exaggerated propensity to see other women as liabilities/rivals rather than as assets/allies:
Athletically and professionally, other women have always been her principal nemeses and men her chief benefactors: in internal (“team”) and external (“game”) competitions. Because, while I can't speak authoritatively about her coaches or the members of the governing bodies of her sport (but I would bet that they were predominantly male), I do know that, while the direct sales force within the drug industry is overwhelmingly female, its management and its clientele are overwhelmingly male.
Note: I recently ran across an article that noted that Stephenie was forced to quit her job in order to participate in Palau. And that (and the fact that Stephenie also “bartends”) made me wonder just how good she is at it (successful drug reps usually have neither the time nor the need for a second job): because it seems to me that a top/valued producer would have been offered a leave of absence.
But, be all of that as it may, the article went on to say that Stephenie had acquired another sales position within the industry: with what she believes to be ‘a better company’. Sound familiar …

And, moreover, reading between the lines of her biography reveals that, while Stephenie shared several athletic awards with other outstanding NEC female athletes and was once nominated (but did not receive) the Conference’s Female Athlete of the Year Award, her all-female collegiate teams were devoid of the championships that enhance a member’s chances of winning a sport’s most prestigious awards.

So, I would also bet that her now too-familiar lament (“Why can’t I ever be on a winning team!”) didn’t first find voice in Palau.
One more point:
Stephenie persuades for a living. Yet, assuming that it was fully revealed, last season her clumsily-presented case for a female alliance was made, not to the full contingent of Palau’s remaining females, but instead only to Katie and Jennifer: leaving its sale to a dispirited Leo in the hands of a -- now-you-see-her, now-you-don’t -- Gemini!

And that was one of the few times in my life that I’ve screamed at a television screen …

And I’ve said all of that to say this:
The two female Scorpios and the female Scorpio/Sagittarius (Brianna, Amy and Morgan), the female Leo (Brooke), the "mistake"-prone female Gemini (Margaret) and the “too smart” Aquarian (Brian) are gone: the last as a direct result of his success at masterminding the departure of one compliant Taurus and his plan to oust the other.

Gary and Steph do seem to be on a roll, don't they …
G
And now (well, this evening, after work) I'm going to head back to my little corner of the spoiling universe. Where one can use the "A" word with impunity ... Come visit. I'll save a star for you!

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-31-05, 01:09 PM (EST)

88. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Churchill (at the beginning … and, sadly, again at the end … of his tenure as the savior- of- last- resort of a decayed sovereignty teetering on the brink of annihilation) was himself a politically powerless hack: a failed, alcoholic “leader”.
He was, however, in the crisis of WWII, a genius at cajoling, co-opting, maneuvering and manipulating the powerful: using their resources to first shield, and then to advance, his (and his nation’s) own independent interests.
LOL, you're saying one of the greatest statesmen ever to grace the stage of national and international politics, who led a tiny island of people against the most aggressive and ruthless and murderous foe the world had ever seen (which had readily conquered every one of our European neighbours and which was massing its ranks on the shores of France but 20 miles from us), a man who kept Britain on its feet and fighting with speeches like this one:
"Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.
"We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"
which finished with what soothsayers may call "cajoling" but which historians obviously acknowledge as a masterful piece of diplomatic leadership in which Churchill illuminated for an otherwise indifferent America her moral duty to join the fight by flipping on her "pride" switch:
"and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.
and who on the domestic front saw us through the Battle of Britain, and through the Blitz of London that killed more than 40,000 people, and who rightly became revered in history for embodying the indomitable spirit of Britons in our darkest hour, and for masterminding the defeat of extremism against the mountainous odds we faced, alone, in the Second World War?
You're saying he wasn't a "leader" because some game of connect-the-dots-in-the-sky concludes that those born in or around December aren't supposed to be leaders??
Please. Astrology is bunkum, QED.

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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-31-05, 04:05 PM (EST)

90. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Loquatrix,
In view of the fact that this is not a Board (nor a Thread) dedicated to political discussion, I will be brief.
Guided by VS’s reference to “power” and prefaced by the word “if”, in the beginning paragraph of my previous post I offered the definition of “leadership” upon which I predicated my comparison of the Survivor and the British Prime Minister. Please review it.

Had I defined the word as “the extraordinarily rare capacity to achieve and inspire human excellence” (a characteristic that defies proscription or prediction by any behavioral science), your reply would have, indeed, been warranted.
But then, had I so defined the word, I would not have made the comparison.

As it is:
Very probably because I have an ingrained distrust of power and a deep -seated aversion to being governed by those whose purpose is to acquire, accumulate and wield it, my heroes have always been the wonderfully flawed individuals and nations who, against all odds, prevail against their “leadership”. Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965) and his countrymen (1940 - 1945) have, for as long as I am able to recall, been paramount among them.
Greatness is a precious commodity. I am very sorry that my post caused you to conclude that I believe otherwise.
As to Astrology:
We disagree. But I have never been so persuaded of the righteousness of my opinions as to conclude them with a Latin benediction. So I hope that you will forgive its omission.

Georgianna

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-31-05, 08:12 PM (EST)

95. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Georgianna,
As you say, this is a Survivor Spoilers board and (sadly) not a metaphysics magazine where some editor is paying us each a dollar a word to duel, so I too shall be brief and confine myself to my core concept that astrology is not spoilers, it is speculation and conjecture.
I said my "bah humbug" bit when you first started the discussion ages ago, and I've left it alone since then because I'm a reasonable liberal type who understands that I'm no more entitled to hit you over the head repeatedly with my Skeptic Stick (TM) than you're entitled to presume a consensus among users here that Stephenie's date of birth automatically indicates she shares characteristics with Winston Churchill (or anyone else, for that matter, who happens to have been born at roughly the same time of year).
I never come to this forum looking for an argument and I certainly admire your eloquence far too much to want to pick a fight with you. I'd really much rather spend my time here readily agreeing with everyone that Steph definitely has a valley between her oobies as a result of an individual immunity necklace, and other such matters of mutual interest and import. But obviously I do have a position on some things that I am prepared to defend if the topic appears on my screen. So since you already have your own thread in which to speculate about the stars, and since not everyone here is a believer, why not keep it confined to that thread where those of us who are interested can come and join in, and those of us who are not can... not?
Loq

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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
11-01-05, 04:08 AM (EST)

98. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 11-01-05 AT 06:37 AM (EST)
Loquatrix,
This was the question:
“As far as the editing reflects Stephenie has ALL the power at her tribe (Rafe's whispering in her ear nothwithstanding ) I recall in our first thread we considered to think like Stephenie and what would she want? Does she want her position taken away and who from Yaxha is most likely to threaten her in that regard and not from what we are seeing but what SHE believes?” ~ VerucaSalt
Emphasis Added
So, given that its author asked that her readers express their opinions, not as to what object may or may not have months ago rested between Stephenie's breasts , but rather as to what thoughts/beliefs may or may not have then been flitting about between her ears …
And given that she quite pointedly asked that, in composing our replies, we disregard the “hard” evidence now before us and instead attempt to think as Stephenie then thought …
I offered mine. And the rationale that informed it.

And I introduced that opinion, not with the phrase “I believe” (an introduction that I reserve for precisely seven convictions, none of which I will ever have occasion to discuss with this Board), but rather with the phrase that I customarily use to preface my opinions (all of which, given my lack of omnipotence, I consider to be speculative): "I think".

I neither presumed nor expected an emergence of consensus with it. Or with its rationale. In fact, consensus, I’m afraid, either bores me or makes me itch. I much prefer a healthy mix of (repeated and diverse) doses of skepticism and agreement.

However, I must admit that I would also prefer that the skepticism not be bracketed between “LOL” and “QED” or conclude with the (if you review my posts vis á vis their placement and content, quite unnecessary) suggestion that I stay in my place.
But then, I'm certainly 'old enough that my preferences won't hurt me' and I suspect that by now we have (by consensus) either a very itchy or a very bored audience ...
So, take care

Georgianna

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architecturegirl 227 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-31-05, 02:49 PM (EST)

89. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

The Deserving/Not Deserving issue is an interesting one, and one that I'm surprised took this long to really come into question. One of the biggest moments of this week's episode for me was when Brandon was STUPID enough to let Jeff bait him and flat out say that he didnt think Bobby Jon was deserving!!! Now granted, you may feel that way - but did you see Bobby Jon's head whip around? You've gotta play smarter than that. Dont give one of your allies proof positive that you are reconsidering your commitment to them. I cant believe that he swallowed Jeff's bait like that! My estimate of him dropped considerably with that comment. Not to mention I felt horrible for poor Bobby Jon - which we were supposed to. I agree with the consensus. We're meant to root for Bobby Jon to get what his heart desires most - on the jury, that he DOES deserve that. But thats pretty much the end of the story for him. How are you really supposed to root for someone to win that you know is fine with just a jury spot?
Now as for the dynamics of the full tribe coming together Gary and Cindy are in similar positions being in the minority of their new tribes, and will be watched closely as to how they interact with everyone. The choice is fairly easy for Cindy - dont piss off the NuNakum's, they're the majority. Lay low, work your relationships and just dont raise issues of your loyalty and you're fine. Gary doesnt have that luxury. If he appears to be schmoozing the NuNakum's he'll destroy what faith Yaxha has in him, yet Yaxha is in the minority, and the old Yaxha members will be watching to see if he's turned his back on them. His best bet is to scheme with Danni, and have he and Danni together try to work an angle. I dont see this happening though, and I think in his case having ties on both sides of the fence will be his downfall rather than help him. Add that to his posing a possible physical threat? He's toast.
I'm a fan of Cindy (though I'm not 100% sure why, chalk it up to the editors), and I was very surprised to see her not want to go over to visit Yaxha. In retrospect though, I think it may have been a result of what I was just talking about - being sort of in the middle and afraid of being overly scrutinized for how she interacts. She seems to be forming bonds with Rafe and Lydia (smart), and I still hold to my comment from last week that she stays really close to Stephenie, whether its forming a bond with her, or just keeping tabs, I'm not sure, but its smart either way. She sticks around for a while.
Stephenie seemed to begin to distance herself from Judd and Jamie. I'm interested to see how this plays out. I think its setting us up for her disposing of them once their usefulness to her has played out. As much as she drove me nuts at the beginning of this season, if this is what she's doing - then she's playing really smart and gets my respect.
As for Danni - while WE all know she's the biggest threat on Yaxha - I really dont think Nakum is aware of that at all, unless Judd and Cindy were aware of it from the beginning. She isnt going anywhere for a while either. There will be plenty of others with bigger targets on their backs for a while - giving her a chance to form bonds with people, which I think is her biggest strength.
I dont think Judd and Jamie are actually having as much of an argument as we're lead to believe. If you notice at the end of that sequence - Jamie is grinning. They're not mad, probably just brother-like banter. And Jamie is probably purposely getting Judd to run his mouth to annoy people like he talked about in his confessional this week.
I think subtle but smart wins the game this time around. Its either a woman or Rafe. Whoever it is, they'll be shown to be "deserving".
Well, thats my two cents for the week.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-31-05, 06:46 PM (EST)

94. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Whoever it is, they'll be shown to be "deserving"
Lets hope so! I can't handle it when people get on the bandwagon of deserving/non-deserving. If you win you deserve it - your evidently the best player or else you wouldn't be there. If you think you're the best player - you should be able to overcome any challenge to win it. That's what being the best is all about...
Bobby-Jon and Steph are luckier than everyone else in that they got a second chance, but that doesn't make them any less 'deserving'. They still have to go through everything that everyone else does.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-31-05, 06:35 PM (EST)

93. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Well, ep. 7 was fairly straightforward. We all knew what was going to happen and it was done in the usual MB-style.
VS, I couldn't agree with you more when you said -
Nakum certainly creates an impression very different from the Yaxha tribe. The two tribes have a vaguely remniscient quality of the Ogakor and Kucha tribes. For the most part we saw a lot of relatively decent feelings amongst Kucha and Ogakor was filled with underlying tension and power struggles. Big contrasts amongst these tribes.
and the music reflects this. I didn't get one positive musical vibe from Nakum all episode - the drum beats were slow and threatening and any hint of melody/harmony was usually dissonant. Nakum is threatening - they might not be a happy family but they ARE powerful. Yaxha, on the other hand, had very charismatic underscoring. At Yaxha camp, there were segments of brassy melody with accompanying fast and excited drum beats. They are a much more unified tribe - however their longevity isn't as promising. Game logic tells me that Nakum is going to dominate the endgame - whilst one Yaxha may slip past (i.e. Danni) I think the rather fluffy nature of the Yaxha underscore doesn't bode well for them post-merge.
Perhaps the most interesting thing that happened, musically, in ep. 7 came when Yaxha was enjoying the canopy ride. The music was very insiprational - there were strings playing a smooth melody, the percussion was using mystical sounding chimes - all in all it highlighted the awe-inspiring nature of the Guatamalan surroundings. This bodes well for our PERCEPTION of Yaxha - we are meant to like them - they APPRECIATE their surroundings, and we all know that at some point the winner is shown to be appreciative of where he/she is. It's interesting to note that when Danni started on her trip, the percussion picked up a notch and became more prominent. Is this symbolic of Danni's approaching power-house second half game?
Now, to address the highly unusual pool-party scenario. This has NEVER happened before and I think it caught the composers a little off-guard. Instead of reflecting any of the tension between the Nakum's or the relief of getting in the water - the composers chose to insert some salsa-music. REALLY STRANGE. Because this simply did NOT reflect any of the goings on. I would hazzard a guess that we won't ever hear this theme again, and I don't think that many of the conversations had at this party will be of great consequence (e.g. between steph and danni). They may be a catalyst in the formation of more important connections between the tribemates, but the interactions at the pool party ITSELF do not hold much water.
Now to offer my take on something that has been playing on the minds of editing gurus since it happened - Cindy's "I don't wanna" confessional. The music here was odd - the melodic line seemed to stop for Cindy's confessional, or at least the only sounds were those that lingered from the underscore just prior to it. I think this gave the confessional an air of neutrality that may not have been present if the composers chose to underscore it fully. The confessional itself was very negative, and I don't think the composers wanted to make it OVERLY negative, so they pulled back. To be treated with such care bodes well for Cindy, though it isn't anything conclusive. And as I have said earlier - the composers use musical pauses to HIGHLIGHT things, Cindy was getting a HIGHLIGHT. The pause didn't last for the whole of the confessional, just (from memory) for the first little bit.
Anyway, that's what I walked away from the episode with... I hope it is of use...

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
10-31-05, 08:25 PM (EST)

96. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Interesting stuff on Cindy, applejack. Disclaimer: I'm a Cindy fan, and this probably has left me with less of a negative impression of this particular confessional than others have said they took away from it.
My feeling was that Cindy is in a very precarious position and knows it. She knows she's only still here because NuNakum hasn't had to go to TC since Margaret. If they had, Cindy would certainly have been voted off. So she's definitely on the bottom rung of NuNakum.
She also has no guarantees that Brandon, Danni and Bobby Jon, her former tribemates, will re-adopt her after the merge. They didn't have much time together in the first place, and even if they did, I don't recall seeing anything to indicate any of them were close with Cindy. And even if they were, and even if they did re-adopt her post-merge, she's at the bottom of THEIR pecking order too. She's really in a difficult position stuck between both tribes.
So for me, her general demeanour of negativity and worry about meeting up with the other tribe was the sensible vibe to put out among her current tribemates. She wanted to be sure they all knew up front she has no intention of trying to wheedle her way in with NuYaxha prior to the merge they all knew was coming up very soon.
As for the negative confessional, and applejack's interpretation of the musical theme taking the edge off the negativity -- I too would tend to feel this was the editing being kind to Cindy. I think we're supposed to appreciate her natural fear of fraternizing with the enemy when she's barely established among her own tribe. Again, though, I like Cindy and am rooting for her (along with my fave, Brandon) so I might just be looking for evidence that we're supposed to like and support Cindy because she's going to be with us for a while.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
10-31-05, 08:32 PM (EST)

97. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Well, Cindy is my favourite so, like you, I have the same worries - am I looking for reasons for her to do well?

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mimo 563 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
11-01-05, 08:00 AM (EST)

100. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

i find that there's generally one thing in each episode that just sticks out. in the last episode, cindy's confessional on not wanting to go to the party was it. she sounded just like a bratty little kid--very different from how she has been shown thus far. which made me think that either cindy is suffering from stockholm syndrome, or there's something else going on that we are not being shown.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
11-01-05, 05:39 AM (EST)

99. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

LAST EDITED ON 11-01-05 AT 05:42 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 11-01-05 AT 05:41 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 11-01-05 AT 05:40 AM (EST)
Once again you all have out done yourselves. We even had a quasi Winston Churchill debate
I'm going to focus on the three pre-dominant themes that have been noted thus far. Before I do that, a bit of primer.
Yaxha and Nakum are no more. As stated many times before, EPMB likes to mix things up with his editing from season to season. We've seen the quintisential anti-quiter in Amy get booted, lead us into the merge, as a counter to the quiters from last season. Are we possibly going to see the anti-pagonging now that there is a merge? Not only is the possible, but very likely. Gary has shown in his confessionals that he will switch his vote to go with the majority. Judd jumped alliances after the switch. Brandon thinks he doesn't need an alliance. Cindy is at the bottom rung of her alliance. There is also the real possibility of some of original tribe members coming back together.
Now onto the three themes that have been posited thus far...
Good Sports vs Bad Sports
This came up at TC when Judd went off on Margaret. So who are our good and bad sports? Obviously Judd is our prime example of a bad sport. Jamie views Judd's behavior as desirable trait for F2. Rafe was noticably intimidated by Judd at TC, along with Jamie's words to him about having and opinion.
Jamie comes in right behind Judd. His display at the challange with BJ did not go un-noticed as it was put in our face. His comments about BJ being a bad sport, yet not recognizing his own poor display of sportsmanship.
Steph has been shown as a poor sport with her snarky comments about BJ.
BJ has had hints of this shown as well, although not to the extent of the others listed above and his behavior was explained away as being competitive.
Our good sports start with Rafe. He has been very encouraging in challenges giving only positive comments. Even his almost non-commital answer to Jamie at TC was positive.
Dani, like Rafe, has been encouraging in challanges and around camp.
Cindy, Gary and Brandon, are hard to place in a catagory so I'm going to keep them neutral until I see otherwise.
Deserving vs Non-Deserving
This catagory begins and ends with Steph and BJ. Since the beginning we have been hearing how they have had their chance and may not be as deserving as the others. Other comments talk about how can anyone win siting next to those two and that they are in the way of the others winning.
I expect this catagory to be expanded as the show progresses.
Athlete vs Non-Athlete
Usually in Survivor players are targeted or favored for their strength, and or their physical appearance regardless of that persons athletic ability. This season the focus is on being athletic.
There are a number of athletes this season, either defined prior to their arrival on the island or by their performances in the challange competitions. Gary the football player. Steph and BJ by their previous appearance on Survivor and the comments made by their tribe mates. Judd and Jamie by the editing during challanges. Dani, who works in sports radio and her editing of performances in challanges.
Non of the others have not been defined as non-athletic perse. Cindy, Brandon and Rafe have been shown as competitive, but not remarkable athleticly.
Survivor is essentially a two part show, pre-merge and post-merge. Like whenever there is a tribe switch, the merge changes the dynamics. It is now everyone for themselves, sort of. Alliances become key. We also know that relationships at this point can play a big role. Whether someone can get along or is annoying is can change dynamics. Those who can navigate this mine field will do well. The two extremes on the emotional scale can be very dangerous. You don't want to be percieved as a loner or a loudmouth/bossy.
See you all after the show
DRONES

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architecturegirl 227 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
11-01-05, 11:34 AM (EST)

103. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

DRONES - Interesting commentary, but you totally left Lydia out of all of your analysis! I'd say she's right there with Rafe in the Good Sport category. I'd say though that she's the only one that in the end will also have deserving/non-deserving issues stuck to her since she was excluded from SO MANY challenges. And well, she's definitely in the non-athlete category.
She has gone SO FAR under the radar these last two episodes, I'm really interested to see what she does with the challenges now that she has to participate and Stephenie cant exclude her. I hope she shows them all up at least once!

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mockingbird 61 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
11-01-05, 11:51 AM (EST)

104. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

It's amazing how differently we(the audience) see the show. Because I rarely have favorites(and never do I seem to hate a Survivor-I usually like the troublemakers) I try to not cloud any analysis with personal feelings towards the players-but-since the talk of poor sportsmanship is being discussed-I can say that my family(who never come to these boards) thinks BJ has terrible sportsmanship. Much worse than Steph and her snarky comments.(they even like Jenna from Amazon after she referred to Deena as a fat pig-yet they hated Heidi). Exploding after a challenge is, to me, very poor sportsmanship(and great entertainment) and I can imagine that had Steph done the same thing we'd have been raking her over the coals. Because it was BJ we barely touched on it and said that there have been "hints" of poor sportsmanship from him!? Earlier in this thread someone-VS-suggested that we try to think like Steph. I think that also, in regards to editing, we need to think like a regular non-analytical audience. My family(siblings, parents, a cousin-all adults) are that typical audience and for the record-hate Judd and Jamie, are rooting for BJ and Steph(though he dropped a notch with the ranting) really liked Margaret and Amy, and don't have an opinion on most of the others(my sister keeps wondering why "that pretty girl never says anything"--Danni. My brothers-in-law both think that Gary is an idiot.
So here is a sampling of average viewer perception. Does it help with analysis? Probably not-and it's making me really enjoy this unpredictable season.
M

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
11-01-05, 04:31 PM (EST)

105. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

I can see that there has been quite a lot of discussion going on around these parts
During the course of the various seasons that we have discussed the editing, there is one variable that always comes into play which I continously remind myself. Editing is in the eye of the beholder and however the beholder wishes to view it
Simply stated, two people see a rose in full bloom and one mentions the sharp thorns as the prominent aspect and someone else mentions the color of the petals.
With that (and since Stephenie seems to be at the forefront of a lot of discussion) Stephenie from the minute she climbed down from the ruins has been a very dominant presence. Her dominance is not just starting now; it was apparent at Yaxha and it was apparent at Nakum. Whether or not the dominance of her character continues on the newly merged tribe will be solved in the next episodes but over the course of this season she has been a very prominent and dominant figure At this point, with past editing patterns in check, it would be hard for me to believe that her presence as such will not continue.
Is this because she was a past player? Of course! However, as we discussed much earlier, Bobby Jon is ALSO a past player and is not receiving the same edit that Stephenie is receiving. Why? Stephenie was very popular last season but so was Bobby Jon although he did not last as long. In light of the comparison of their face time, confessionals and the commentary that was made ABOUT them (Jamie: How can I win with her on my team and Brian: Stephenie's on our team, we are good to go, etc. as compared to Bobby Jon; Brandon: "Harder worker....little dumb" and Danni discussing about his being eye candy) There has been a decidedly different edit to both.
At this point in the game, there is no reason to believe that Stephenie is leaving soon. We saw in Brian's and Amy's boot episodes that Bobby Jon's status is vulnerable, we have not seen this yet with Stephenie and, in fact, Jamie was "concerned" that Stephenie would get too close to the "enemy" These situations (without analyzing them the way we do) is meant to convey Bobby Jon is in danger and Stephenie is not.
Loquatrix and applejack regarding your liking for Cindy.... I am glad you are viewing her in this manner because prior to the past two episodes, there really has been no opinion given about her. The fact you are reacting in a positive way is a good thing coupled that with her emergence (I won't go back and repeat everything we have already discussed about this) Loquatrix, I agree that Cindy's commentary should not necessarily be negative and because Jamie's was so much more PALPABLE it helped to negate how negative Cindy could have sounded. On the surface, Cindy's observations/statements were not positive but we REMEMBERED Jamie's more which is better for Cindy and not Jamie.
This episode is going to have so much for us to discuss as merger episodes (like twists) normally do. I think after this episode another thread may be in order?

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
11-01-05, 04:40 PM (EST)

106. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

I was going to ask for a POST MERGE THREAD!
do it!
I want the golden goose now, DADDY!!

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
11-01-05, 05:49 PM (EST)

107. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Before we leave this thread, I'd like to address comments by Drones and Mimo on Cindy. I do think something is happening that we aren't shown. In analyzing Cindy, we should remember she was voted as the Nakum player with the best team spirit. Brooke, Danni, BJ and Brandon were all possible choices at that point, but she got the votes. That in itself, should place her in the good sport category I think. The fact that she wasn't too happy to party with her old tribemates made me think she has used that team spirit to make friends with her new tribe.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
11-02-05, 03:25 AM (EST)

108. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

architecturegir, thanks for pointing out my ommision of Lydia from any of my lists. I completely forgot about her. hmmm...I wonder if that means anything She, of course, is a very important character in all of this, flying UTR after being front and center as a boot candidate early on.
I would definately put Cindy as a good sport who is not very athletic and will probably be a victim of the deserving vs not deserving debate.
michel, I actually forgot about Cindy as being voted as the player with the most team spirit. Cindy continues to intrigue me, more and more. She has not been a predominant character, but has been slowly developed the last couple of eps. This is always a good thing in regards to longevity.
See you all in the new post merge thread.
DRONES

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
11-02-05, 10:28 AM (EST)

109. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

Michel,something we haven't seen so far, is that Cindy,Jamie and
Judd all have identical twin siblings. I doubt these players have kept it a secret and it's possible they have bonded from
having this in common. We know Steph and Danni were discussing
their siblings and maybe it marked the beginning of the topic.
Three sets of identical twins on one show is actually a lot.
It would seem the producers are curious to discover how twins
fair, in general, in the game of Survivor. Do twins have any
social advantage? Do twins have a competitive edge? Can twins
only lead or follow? etc. It's an interesting topic. So, why
has the subject been omitted so far? Are we intended to get to
know the characters first before we learn that......WOW.......
there's another Judd-like person in this world?!

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
11-02-05, 02:25 PM (EST)

110. "RE: Big Shifts-The Players, The Game, The Editing-Guatemala"

surviette, all three have identical twins? Amazing. I believe I knew about Jamie but not the other two.
michel, I'm glad you mentioned Cindy and her "team spirit" I recall when that was stated, it had surprised me as we were never really made privvy to this which had me curious. I'm glad you saw fit to remind us of this
emydi (or should I say Ms. Salt #2) the next thread will be started tomorrow. I love merge episodes; they bring about such new stories and dynamics and sometimes even surprises. Unfortunately, those on Yaxha do not have good long term standing (with the one exception many of us have discussed) so many of us have narrowed the field down quite considerably for the end results (or so we hope the editing has told us)

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