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Krautboy 2750 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Howard Stern Show Guest" 05-10-02, 04:24 AM (EST) "The Mysterious Rule Changes" Mark Burnett made a special point of making us aware of two new rules this season, neither of which have come into play yet. 1. Previous votes are not used as a tiebreaker. 2. Immunity can be transferred. I don't believe MB would have made us aware of these changes, if they never came into play. 1. Previous votes are not used as a tiebreaker. EP13 is the last chance for a tie vote and for the tiebreaker rule change to come into play. How do you get a tie vote if Kathy sides with either P/N or S/V in Ep12? You don’t! If she allys herself with either remaining pair we have a 3-2 vote this week and 3-1 next week. The only way a tie vote can occur is if Kathy goes this week and we have a 2-2 standoff of P/N vs S/V next week. 2. Immunity can be transferred Since winning immunity at the Final 3 determines who you take to the Final 2, the immunity transferring must occur this week or next and the only person I can see giving up the IN is Pappy, giving it to Neleh If we look at the misdirection in this weeks CBS Opinion Poll… "Who do you think Kathy should try to ally herself with? Neleh and Paschal Sean and Vecepia Neleh and Vecepia" …we notice that it does not ask what Kathy will do if Paschal and Neleh ally themselves with Sean and Vecepia? The Mysterious rule changes have me wondering... Krautboy   Top

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    Mais non .... TechNoir 05-10-02 1    RE: Mais non .... I_AM_HE 05-10-02 3    RE: Mais non .... Fast Eddie 05-10-02 11    RE: Mais non .... JohnMc 05-10-02 13  RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes I_AM_HE 05-10-02 2    RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes PepeLePew13 05-10-02 5        They're women! mindysue 05-10-02 7            RE: They're women! PepeLePew13 05-10-02 9                RE: They're women! SmokeWilliams 05-10-02 10                    Foreshadowing for Pappy sorgee 05-10-02 14                        Regrets weren't from the game but ... DVK 05-10-02 17    Kathy would vote off Pappy and why... DVK 05-10-02 16  RE: A Tie Vote katethegreat 05-10-02 4  RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes SurvivinDawg 05-10-02 6    Tie votes AyaK 05-10-02 21        RE: Tie votes infinitesurvivor 05-11-02 28  RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes samboohoo 05-10-02 8  RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes zzz 05-10-02 12    Kathy's Toast Tylogulator 05-11-02 26  RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes Iatros 05-10-02 15    Interesting.... ycartdraw 05-10-02 18        RE: Interesting.... SurvivinDawg 05-10-02 19    Very interesting proposition JohnMc 05-10-02 20  RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes corcam 05-10-02 22  RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes Cin 05-10-02 23    RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes MeToo 05-11-02 27  More Questions than Answers Krautboy 05-11-02 24    RE: More Questions than Answers drich61 05-12-02 29    RE: More Questions than Answers third1 05-14-02 30    RE: More Questions than Answers SurvivinDawg 05-14-02 31  Could have both IN swap AND tie thi... Spidey 05-11-02 25    RE: Could have both IN swap AND tie... SurvivinDawg 05-14-02 32

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 06:59 AM (EST) 1. "Mais non ...." I keep hearing this and I have to finally respectfully disagree. I believe you are using a very limited view of "come into play." As you may recall on S3 they spent huge amounts of energy worrying about who would have the most 'votes against' in the event of a tie. That became a major motivator for choosing who to vote against. SO the simple fact that EPM changed the tie breaking procedure removed that oh-so-annoying factor from the vote choices. I believe that was his intent whether or not it was actually used in S4. And the "you can give away immunity" rule is supposed to introduce uncertainty to each tribal council. And no, of course it doesn't work for us but we are semi-professional spoilers. I doubt that many of us were distracted by all of the it's Neleh hype during the last episode. But I suspect that the casual viewer was less certain about the final outcome. So after all that I'm trying to say that the rule changes themselves are sufficient. I don't think they have to be used to be important. 60 Pixel Series, No. 2 "Sweetie, if you're not living on the edge, then you're taking up space..." Flo Kennedy   Top

I_AM_HE 6123 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 07:10 AM (EST) 3. "RE: Mais non ...." excellent points TechNoir!   Top

Fast Eddie 625 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 05-10-02, 09:32 AM (EST) 11. "RE: Mais non ...." >And the "you can give away >immunity" rule is supposed to >introduce uncertainty to each tribal >council. And no, of .... >episode. But I suspect >that the casual viewer was >less certain about the final >outcome. Then they haven't done a very good job. They have lots of opportunity to play it up, spending 5 minutes or so on speculation as to whether the necklace will move. But they completely ignore it until TC, when it gets 5 seconds or less of attention. They're certainly not encouraging the casual viewer to speculate.   Top

JohnMc 2679 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson" 05-10-02, 10:59 AM (EST) 13. "RE: Mais non ...." Techie, I am in complete agreement with you. The rules changes are not made to change how the game is viewed on tv, but rather to change how the game is played. EBM was tired of people playing the game based on previous votes and having that be a targetting element in choosing people to boot. A previous votes should NOT be an issue in the next tribal council because, as we have seen, a LOT can happen in 3 days. Hence rule change #1. The immunity-giveaway does introduce an element of uncertainty. Tammy and John figured out that from now on they had to have a boot pick and an alternate in case their first choice won immunity. You really do have to watch to the end to know what the final outcome will be, and you can NOT just watch the first half hour and know who will be booted. Hence, to reiterate the words of the great Tech Noir, "the rule changes themselves are sufficient."   Top

I_AM_HE 6123 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 07:08 AM (EST) 2. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" >>The only way a tie vote can occur is if Kathy goes this week and >>we have a 2-2 standoff of P/N vs S/V next week. not so. Kathy could align with one group this week and then force a 2-2 tie next week by realigning with the loner. not a likely scenario, imo, but more than possible one scenario i could see this happening in would be if Paschal transfers immunity next episode to Neleh (as has been speculated on the Tale of Two Cities thread) If he did this, Kathy would have a hard time voting Paschal off, I think. Which means she might vote off Sean or Vee. If Sean, she might try and team with Vee against Paschal and Neleh at the next TC, bringing about the KNV "alliance" listed in the poll. Otherwise, I can't understand the "Vecepia and Neleh" choice in the poll at all! Unless Neleh and Vee both decide to turn backstabber and knock off their men, which I just can't see happening...alternately, she couldvote off Pappy after a transferred immunity, and then team with Neleh to vote off Sean, again forming a final 3 of KVN. But I really can't see Neleh making F3 unless Kathy sticks with PN completely At any rate, the way the show has been edited seems to clearly point to a Kathy win. We've been misdirected on the individual bootees, but perhaps the overall winner has been given to us since the merge.   Top

PepeLePew13 26140 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 08:26 AM (EST) 5. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" >Otherwise, I can't understand the "Vecepia and >Neleh" choice in the poll at all! Unless Neleh and >Vee both decide to turn backstabber and knock off their >men, which I just can't see happening...alternately, she >could vote off Pappy after a transferred immunity, and >then team with Neleh to vote off Sean, again >forming a final 3 of KVN. But I really can't >see Neleh making F3 unless Kathy sticks with PN completely Or... the three choices listed are intended to make us think less of the possibility of Kathy teaming up with Sean and Pappy. Why include the choices as N/P, S/V or N/V but not mention S/P considering Sean and Pappy bonded well during their time together in RC? And let's say Vee got further exposed as a lazy sort (as mentioned by Tammy) or as being on the outer fringes of their alliance while Rotu-4 was still around and Neleh continues to annoy some with her way of talking so they end up as the next two bootees. You'd then have a final three of K/P/S. GO HABS! "I'm the General and that's that." Robert DeCanio, April 11/02   Top

mindysue 39 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge" 05-10-02, 08:55 AM (EST) 7. "They're women!" MB is suggesting the all women alliance that he pushed in S3. That is the only reason N/V pairing is mentioned.   Top

PepeLePew13 26140 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 09:03 AM (EST) 9. "RE: They're women!" True... but we've seen more often than not that the poll tends to misdirect us AWAY from what is actually going to happen -- the choices doesn't usually include the right choice that actually happens... which is why I brought up the possibility of a Kathy/Pappy/Sean final 3 where they align with each other in episode 12. GO HABS! "I'm the General and that's that." Robert DeCanio, April 11/02   Top

SmokeWilliams 36 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge" 05-10-02, 09:30 AM (EST) 10. "RE: They're women!" Even though Sean and Pappy bonded when they won their feast together and Sean and Kathy have the underdog thing going on, Pappy would have to turn his back on Neleh. I know Pappy is now finally playing the game, but he also cried this episode and said he was ashamed of some of the things he did after looking back. After that, I don't think he could look himself in the mirror if he went with the others and got rid of Neleh. He wants to be in the final two with her, and probably wants her to win.   Top

sorgee 1455 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Beef Jerky Spokesperson" 05-10-02, 11:14 AM (EST) 14. "Foreshadowing for Pappy" "Pappy is now finally playing the game, but he also cried this episode and said he was ashamed of some of the things he did after looking back." As soon as he said that I felt that he would be on his way out because he did a good deed for someone else. No good dead goes unpunished...   Top

DVK 33 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge" 05-10-02, 03:46 PM (EST) 17. "Regrets weren't from the game but from life." I don't think Pappy was talking about the game he was talking about life lessons he has learned from the game and some of the deeds he regrets wasn't (I believe) in the game but things he has done in his life and the crying was about that. DVK   Top

DVK 33 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge" 05-10-02, 03:41 PM (EST) 16. "Kathy would vote off Pappy and why!!!!" One comment, Kathy understands the game better than anyone else left she would vote Pappy off next if she had a choice because I believe and more importantly I think she believes, he is the biggest threat in a final 2 vote and she is here to win. It's not who she likes better, it's who is the competition. Pappy much, much bigger threat than Neleh, Sean, or Vee in a final 2 vote. She tried to tell that to Robert and he didn't get it so she didn't push it and hence he is gone. DVK __________________________________________ And your whiney butt opinion would be?   Top

katethegreat 207 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star" 05-10-02, 07:54 AM (EST) 4. "RE: A Tie Vote" I disagree with your statement that "The only way a tie vote can occur is if Kathy goes this week and we have a 2-2 standoff of P/N vs S/V next week." I think it would be a good strategy for Kathy to align with P/N next week to take out Vee, then align with Sean to try to take out P or N. This way, she goes into the final three with two unaligned people, either or whom MAY choose her for F2, if she doesn't win immunity then, herself. They may not, but she would have a better chance than if she let one of the current teams remain whole down to the final three. So I do think it is possible for there to be a tie vote while Kathy remains in the game.   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 08:48 AM (EST) 6. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" krautboy, my friend, it is hard to disagree with you, but in this case I must. In advance, I apologize if I repeat what the other posters have said... I only skimmed their messages before hitting the reply button. I know, "bad dawg!" Anyway, here are my points: Mark Burnett made a special point of making us aware of two new rules this season, neither of which have come into play yet. 1. Previous votes are not used as a tiebreaker. 2. Immunity can be transferred. I don't believe MB would have made us aware of these changes, if they never came into play. I do. In fact, No 2. conforms to the "Hollow" theory quite well: MB wants to impress and surprise his first (non-spoiler) audience, and misdirect his second (spoiler) audience. By telling us that the IN transfer is possible, we spoilers have to think of it when making a vote for a bootee. And MB used the potential for a transfer when the General won the IC: a voiceover of him telling Tammy that he wasn't going to let anything happen to her was MB's attempt to keep the suspense going, if for a few more minutes. Therefore, even if it never happens, this rule change has ALREADY introduced a new twist to the game, which is what MB wants. As to No. 1... WE spoilers know about the rule change from exit interviews. And the players knew when the game started, so all's fair. My question is: Have we even seen this discussed on the show itself? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it's been talked about AT ALL. So the non-spoiling audience may not even be AWARE of it, hence my argument with your (krautboy) comment. OF course, MB doesn't mind us spoilers knowing about it, since we have to take it into account when spoiling the show. I do agree with you that Pappy might give Neleh the IN (OR VICE VERSA!!!). And there may yet be a tie vote... in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there was one in the Final 4... "Pappy, you smuggled! I'm so proud of you!" -- Neleh Dennis *** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 05:13 PM (EST) 21. "Tie votes" How many tie votes have we had in Survivor so far? S1: one (E13, vote 1--Kelly W changed vote in second round) S2: two (E4--prior votes, E7--prior votes) S3: two (E3--survival facts trivia tiebreak, E6--prior votes) So tie votes are RARE but do OCCUR. It's rather amazing that there hasn't been one so far. But let's think back --- back to S1. MB DID NOT tell us how a tie would be broken then; he just said they'd keep revoting if it took all night. In S2, they told us DURING E3. We debated then whether that fact would be significant in the next episode (and it was!). Why tell us so early in S4? I'm with Krautboy -- because it comes up, and MB wants us to speculate blindly on the outcome.   Top

infinitesurvivor 62 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square" 05-11-02, 04:51 PM (EST) 28. "RE: Tie votes" The "previous-votes-don't-count" rule doesn't necessarily have to come into play....it could be just to give a player the long-range strategy opportunity, and, so the players and spectators don't even have to bother with it...any player can start off bad and can win easier...it was a dumb rule anyways.   Top

samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 09:00 AM (EST) 8. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" I wonder about a few of these changes too Krautboy. Tammy mentioned last week that Robert offered to give her the IN, but she refused it and told him to keep it. Robert said this morning on the Early Show that he offered it again at Tribal Council, with some conditions. I think he said that he would give it to Tammy if the others would not vote him out, but the looks on their faces told him otherwise, so he kept it. (I'm not sure of the exact terms of his offer because a client walked into my office.) So why would he tell us about this new rule about transferring immunity, but then not show us when it happens. (I know there is still the possiblility that it will happen later.) Also, I notice that they don't list Sean and Paschal as a choice for Kathy to allign with. I doubt that Paschal would abandon Neleh, but it is a possibility.   Top

zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 05-10-02, 09:36 AM (EST) 12. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" Krautboy-- I hate to pile on--especially on someone that in the past has been remarkably perceptive--but alas I must. I agree generally with what TechNoir said, as well as others in this thread. I would like to point out, in addition, my speculation on the "sequence of event" that might lead to this situation. OK--MB decides on these rule changes and puts them in place for S4. Obviously at that point, he has no way of knowing if they would ever come into play. He may hope they will--but he cannot guarantee it (as much as people this he has absolute control of the results--he doesn't). Then the game is played, and other than in minor ways (like Robert "thinking" about giving IN to Tammy and players not obsessing about prior votes) it has NO effect on the game. Now MB is in a spot. He is ready to promote S4, and he put these rules into play hoping they would be prominent, but they are not. What should he do? Should he ignore the rule changes in promoting S4. NO!!!!!!!!! They are something he can still use for TWO purposes: (1) hype the show and (2) keep the spoilers guessing and talking about the show. In addition, at every post-merge TC, Jeff asked if the person wants to give up the IN, so that rule change was going to be heard by viewers repeatedly. Why shouldn't MB try to hype the show by saying there would be new rules for us to watch out for. He has NOTHING to lose. He never promised they would come into play in a big way. He only promised there would be rule changes--and there were. So does this mean I am assuming no tie votes and no IN transfer? NO--it does not mean that. It only means that I believe that MB would have hyped the rule changes NO MATTER WHAT. He is not shy about making a big deal out of nothing. He will use whatever he can to get people to watch and keep people guessing and get people talking about the show. I have often, after the fact, completely disagreed with MB's charaterization of events (e.g., when he claims a TC will be "dramatic" and in my opinion it was quite lame and predictable). This is MB's MO. I am curious whether the replies in this thread have made you rethink your position.   Top

Tylogulator 6 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson" 05-11-02, 01:51 PM (EST) 26. "Kathy's Toast" Even though I'm new on this board and usually have a horrible track record of predicting bootees, I've nailed down the last two and think next week's is predictable too. In the preview for next week, it showed Sean saying how he isn't neccessarily a package with V, but I think this is another red herring, just like the 'mysterious event' from this week (family visits) Although it hasn't been said, there is definitely more than an unspoken alliance between n/p/s/v. You don't vote the same for like 5 straight episodes without something being said.. If this is the hidden allaince that MB has hidden begginning with S2 I wouldn't be surprised... Also, a kind of underlying theme for this show has been no mercy for the outsider...which can be traced back to the begginning episode...Peter was a weird yoga guru who creeped people out and he got booted...Pat was useless and annoying...then the alliance b/w sarah rob and sean and vee formed and hunter was sent packing due to the fact he was on a minority alliance...yada yada yada...K is on the outside now...you'd think p/n or s/v would bring her in to guarantee final 3 but these 4 people have proved themselves to be pretty dumb (and now kathy too for not allying with the 'closet monster' aka robert) and i'm not expecting to see intelligent strategizing from the other 4...they'll deciede to vote out kathy and worry about each other later....of course...the brew will really get stirred if k wins immunity, in which cases all bets are off....   Top

Iatros 1 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson" 05-10-02, 02:27 PM (EST) 15. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" Some possibilities that these changes can come into play next week. If S/V and P/N decide to go head to head and vote off Kathy next week. Since we really don’t know what the new tiebreak rule is maybe both alliances take a risk and go against one another. Another possibility and I like this one. Since we have two pairs they obviously would like Kathy to be on their side to vote off one of the other two. How do you get Kathy to vote the way you want to vote... give her immunity. Say Sean wins the IC. Now at TC instead of keeping it he gives it to Kathy. Now Kathy is in a bind, if she votes S or V off how does that look to the jury? Any of the four S/V/N/P could do this at TC and put Kathy on the spot. If it is done on spur of the moment with out anyone knowing then it would make the voting a lot more interesting.   Top

ycartdraw 46 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge" 05-10-02, 03:58 PM (EST) 18. "Interesting...." Ya know, I never would have thought of that. If would definitely make it interesting. I actually hope that happens, just for the intensity. But, would any of them be smart enough to think of it? (I mean, I didn't come up with it so...lol) But if they do, it could make for an intense TC!!!   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-10-02, 04:07 PM (EST) 19. "RE: Interesting...." The risk, of course, is that whoever gives Kathy the necklace then gets PROMPTLY booted by everyone else... ESPECIALLY if everyone else was going to vote for Kathy. For example. If the P/N/V are going to vote for Kathy and Sean gives her the necklace, you can say goodbye to Sean. Robert was going to give Tammy the IC necklace at TC, but according to himself didn't do it because it was clear he would be immediately waxed. "Pappy, you smuggled! I'm so proud of you!" -- Neleh Dennis *** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

JohnMc 2679 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson" 05-10-02, 04:32 PM (EST) 20. "Very interesting proposition" Iatros, you are a genius. Based on what you describe, the pair that wins immunity is the team that can control their destiny by keeping Kathy. She is in a bad position by not having someone to ally with now that there are 5 left. If Paschal or Neleh wins immunity, they can give it to Kathy to get her to vote for Sean or Vee. Sean and Vee can do the same thing. Either way, Kathy gets put into a bind because now she has to for the opposing pair. She is protected by the pair because they will be voting for someone of the opposite pair. She is also trapped, though, because if she votes off one of the pair that gave her immunity, then she loses jury votes and can do no better than MamaKim. But what happens if Kathy wins immunity? Then she will be courted by both sides to vote with them. Kathy is in a powerful position right now, but also very vulnerable. (Ultimately, though, I think Paschal is in the driver's seat. He has tight bonds w/Neleh, Kathy, and Sean. Vee is the only one left for him to vote for.)   Top

corcam 374 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host" 05-10-02, 05:33 PM (EST) 22. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" I personally think the previous votes don't count rule change is lame, it has been that way since the beginning and should still apply. In exception to the immunity switch if anyone is dumb enough to do that they they are dumb enough to get voted off, if that isn't painting a fresh target to delete the first I don't know what is   Top

Cin 843 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent" 05-10-02, 06:26 PM (EST) 23. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" Ok, one thing that I remember Jiffy saying is that someone can use their immunity to "buy" a favor. This could bring up a situation of: Kathy loses the next IC and the person who wins it (I would think Sean or Vee at this point) Offers her Immunity if she sticks with him/her and promises that they will make the final 2 (not letting the 3rd know about this new deal). I think with all the Immunity hype this could be something very benificial once the game gets down to smaller numbers. Thoughts? Cin   Top

MeToo 158 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-11-02, 04:05 PM (EST) 27. "RE: The Mysterious Rule Changes" You have raised an excellent point, Cin. Right now, Kathy has all the power and several choices as to what to do with it. I didn't think immunity would have anything to do with it - there is not a whole lot of difference between S & V or P and N in terms of competition (IMO). However, if one of the pairs is smart enough to realize Kathy's power (i.e. they can count ), this would be an excellent strategy all around.   Top

Krautboy 2750 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Howard Stern Show Guest" 05-11-02, 03:01 AM (EST) 24. "More Questions than Answers" LAST EDITED ON 05-11-02 AT 03:15 AM (EST) Interesting discussion…and the more I think about it the more questions I have… TechNoir, you make several very good points, but I can't help thinking that if MB made the rule changes just to change how the contestants play the game, why bother telling the audience about it? If MB just wanted to change the contestants behavior with regard to how they play the game, and telling them about the rule changes had the desired affect, wouldn’t MB be satisfied? Why disappoint his audience by telling them about something that never happens? I agree that the rule changes don’t have to be used to be important. We also didn’t need to know about them if that was the case. But we do… Dawg, many good points as well, but no need to be so polite. If you disagree, rip into me, I’m a stubborn German and thick skinned. As far as your question is concerned… ”Have we even seen this discussed on the show itself? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it's been talked about AT ALL.” I’m pretty sure JP announced it at the first TC. And again, I have to suggest that they have lots of footage from TC to work with, we only see a small portion of it. JP definitely announced the rule change to the contestants, and it appears MB got the desired change in voting behavior, but at the end of the filming and during the editing, MB decided to leave the announcement of the rule change in for the viewing audience to see as well. He did that for a reason, which we will find out soon enough… ZZZ, yes you also piled on with a fine argument, but again, I’m hung up on the fact that MB is a storyteller and a master of editing his show. Everything that is shown is carefully selected for a reason. As you explain… ”In addition, at every post-merge TC, Jeff asked if the person wants to give up the IN, so that rule change was going to be heard by viewers repeatedly.” …MB could have just as easily edited out the question from every post merge TC, but he didn’t! I can’t believe that MB would lead his audience up to the climax and then not have one. MB can’t control the outcome of the game, but he does control which path he leads us down, and what he allows us to see along the way. ZZZ, of course these strong opinions and well thought out arguments have caused me to rethink my position, but since I’m a stubborn German, after rethinking (and getting a little reinforcement from Ayak), I still believe we will see a tie vote and an IN Transfer. Which scenario gets us there is what I’d like us to figure out… Iatros, excellent first post! Welcome! Your scenario is a perfect example of how and why someone would actually transfer their Immunity to someone else. The problem I’m having is getting both the IN transfer and the tie vote to fit neatly into the same scenario… The previews, the CBS Opinion Poll, last weeks show, all show Kathy trying to play the game, and paint a picture of her in a "pivotal position", in control of the game. As we saw again last week, “Strategies revealed do not Succeed”. Kathy’s plan to form an alliance with Robert, Sean and Vee to get rid of Neleh was revealed to us and did not succeed. Paschal and Neleh were not aware of it. This week her plan is to choose between S/V and P/N. The previews have been edited to show S/V vs. P/N. The CBS Opinion Poll gives the impression that Kathy is in control and can choose the alliance of her choice…”Strategies revealed do not Succeed”. I guess it’s my lingering doubts about Kathy that led me to make this post in the first place. Will we still see the religious vote that JP talked about? Sean, Vee, Neleh and Paschal are the four most religious. Will they vote against Kathy setting up the tie breaker? Is Paschal “…less than pleased after arriving at an important determination about two tribemates”, when he finds out that Kathy and Robert plotted against him and Neleh? Does this cause him to “ do the right thing” and play with integrity, rather than aligning with Kathy and assuring himself a Final 3, and vote against Kathy instead? Does Kathy try to make Sean and Vee “the scapegoats” for planning the alliance against Paschal and Neleh? Does this backfire when Sean and Vee retaliate and vote out Kathy? Do the tensions, that Kathy creates by playing one side against the other , “erupt at Tribal Council” as Kathy’s plans for yet another alliance fall apart when she is voted out. Does a scenario where Kathy goes this week set up the long anticipated tie breaker of Sean/Vee vs. Paschal/Neleh? Does Paschal know that it will be a 2-2 tie vote and decide to give Neleh the IN so that it is Paschal who faces off in the tiebreaker? More questions than answers... Krautboy   Top

drich61 558 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 05-12-02, 00:35 AM (EST) 29. "RE: More Questions than Answers" >”Have we even seen this discussed >on the show itself? Correct >me if I am wrong, >but I don't think it's >been talked about AT ALL.” > > >I’m pretty sure JP announced it >at the first TC. And >again, I have to suggest >that they have lots of >footage from TC to work >with, we only see a >small portion of it. > >JP definitely announced the rule change >to the contestants, and it >appears MB got the desired >change in voting behavior, but >at the end of the >filming and during the editing, >MB decided to leave the >announcement of the rule change >in for the viewing audience >to see as well. He >did that for a reason, >which we will find out >soon enough… No, the prior votes rule change was told to us in preshow interviews, it has not yet been mentioned at any time on the air. I have spoken to several people that watch every week, and they were surprised when I mentioned this rule change. It was told in a way so that we would know about it, but the general viewing public still doesn't know about it. We also know from contestant exit interviews that they knew about it before the game started, and again we are the only ones which pay attention to that stuff.   Top

third1 12 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson" 05-14-02, 01:10 AM (EST) 30. "RE: More Questions than Answers" On www.realitytvfans.com the Tammy interview, she is asked her opinion of the new rule changes. She is quoted as saying the rule change re the past votes is 'brilliant', and about the new ability to give the immunity away, she says it is good "but we have really not really seen it come into play yet", ....as she would have seen all of the final TC's, I am placing humble spoiler value on it as meaning that it has no value in Survivor 4, but may in future shows.   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-14-02, 06:23 AM (EST) 31. "RE: More Questions than Answers" Dawg, many good points as well, but no need to be so polite. If you disagree, rip into me, I’m a stubborn German and thick skinned. As far as your question is concerned… Oh, I try to be polite to let you know I'm only arguing with the content of your message, and not you personally. Of course YOU know that, Krautboy, but others sometimes don't, so I try to be nice about it. Of course, I save my impoliteness for those bad, bad posters who are under the influences of Evil Bert . ”Have we even seen this discussed on the show itself? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it's been talked about AT ALL.” I’m pretty sure JP announced it at the first TC. Normally, I wouldn't even debate things like this, since I'm prone to miss a line or two here and there... but in the case of the first episode, I did the summary so I was paying particular attention. And I'm pretty sure that we viewers were NOT told about the rule change in Ep. 1, at TC or anywhere else. And once again, you might be right and these rules come into play. My only point was that MB *would* let us know about them even if they didn't because just the knowledge of these rules changes our thinking of what we're seeing and adds new variables to the mix. "Pappy, you smuggled! I'm so proud of you!" -- Neleh Dennis *** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-11-02, 12:22 PM (EST) 25. "Could have both IN swap AND tie this ep." Just a thought. What if Kathy decides to "throw away" her vote so as not to look the bad guy. P/N vote for S/V and vica versa. Kathy votes for someone not targeted. (She will likely know which 2 are targeted) Then we could have an IN transfer from P to N AND a tie, likely P v. S. Now THAT would be an "intense" tribal council!   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-14-02, 09:17 AM (EST) 32. "RE: Could have both IN swap AND tie this ep." I seriously doubt that the IN transfer can occur AFTER a vote is taken. Under the rules, the top two vote-getters (that are tied) will not vote and everyone else votes for one or the other of those two. Therefore, I cannot see them allowing a necklace transfer right in the middle of that. "Pappy, you smuggled! I'm so proud of you!" -- Neleh Dennis *** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

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