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"Thoughts On The Season"
geekboy 1788 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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12-21-09, 09:58 AM (EST)
 
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"Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-21-09 AT 09:59 AM (EST)Hi Everyone! No, i didn't participate in the forums this season. I was busier than usual this season, and watched almost all of the season 'tivo style'. Also, i didn't really pay attention to spoilers which was kind of refreshing. Here are my thoughts for this season. * My favorite season in a LONG TIME! Great cast of characters, great interactions, great changes in "power".
* The rain, the cold, this Survivor was real.
* Two medivacs. Wow.
* Shambo. I simply love her. Perhaps the most "real" character in quite a long time.
* Galu. Perhaps the most egomaniacal tribe in an equally long time.
* Foa Foa. Everyone loves when the underdog succeeds. Best.Comeback.Ever!
* I will contend it was the worst jury ever. They didn't have a clue. I've said before, Survivor players often come down with a case of "The Stupids"...but it was an epidemic in that jury. IT'S A GAME PEOPLE. THIS ISN'T REAL LIFE. RUSSEL PLAYED THE GAME! UNLIKE YOU. Now, on to Russel.
* I'm just going to say it. Perhaps the best PLAYER of this game ever. Right up with Brian Heidik. I've wanted another player like this in a long time, and Russel brought it.
* I don't believe he made a single mistake, other than his ego...but he needed that ego to do what he did. Double-edged sword.
* 3 immunity idols
* With the help of Shambo and Natalie, was able to Pagong the tribe with numbers advantage. Has that EVER been done before?
* Only won a single immunity challenge
* Only won one (or two) reward challenges?
* Lets just say it - the MOST robbed player in Survivor history. If anyone in any season deserved the win - Russel did. In the end, a GREAT season, and a very disappointing ending. geekboy
"I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell
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Round Robin 2914 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 00:22 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
Being so egotistical was in fact not only a mistake, but the FATAL mistake for RussHell. You cannot get away with that in a game in which you need the jury votes of people you helped eliminate. It is a basic mistake and the cardinal sin of Survivor to be that much of an arrogant a--hole and to flaunt it in people's faces for 39 straight days. That is exactly what RussHell did, and it is why he deserved to lose.
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geekboy 1788 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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12-22-09, 08:40 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I guess we'll agree to disagree. Russel played the game like nobody else has, and played it brilliantly. He kept his head in the game for the entire 39 days which is obviously hard to do since practically nobody can do it. He stuck to his plan 100% and it got him to the final.I think the fatal mistake this season was a jury of idiots who all forgot this was a game. They were upset they were all outplayed by a single player, and then decided to take it out on him. I don't believe it was Russel's ego that got him, but the jury's "reverse-ego" that did him in. geekboy
"I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell
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Snidget 44369 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 08:53 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I just think that if you spend enough time rubbing everyone's nose in how stupid and worthless you think they are, eventually someone decides to get back at the bully.He could have at least made a bit of effort to suggest that other people deserved to be on the show with him (after all Russell by himself on an island for 39 days...oh wait that is pretty much how they edited the show anyway...). I don't think Russell's ego could allow that other people should be given any credit at all. Yep, he played hard, and loud, but being able to set aside one's own self-love for a few seconds to say hey good game and be a good winner can go a long way, especially when people can still take the ball away from you. It seems the only way he can convince himself that he is worthy is to make everyone else worthless. At some point people get sick of it. A few "you are great but I am better" would have, IMO, gotten him more than his I am the only worthy being here shtick. Even on a season of all-stars I'm sure he will never admit anyone else was playing the game. His delusion will not allow that. 
If you're a {Reality TV} juror, you don't have to put aside anything! You have the ultimate power of your own reckless, irrational whimsy! That is the absolute essence of the game. --Linda Holmes
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Loree 8616 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 08:58 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
Russell needed to keep up the ego and nastiness just to get to the Final 3. I believe if he had been a bit nicer that Natalie, Mick and Jaison would have voted Russell out when Brett won the IC with 5 people left. But Mick and Natalie both secretly thought that the jury would hate Russell and it would be their chance to win. If Russell had dominated the game and been nicer he probably would not have made it to the Final 3. So the same traits that got Russell to the Final 3 were the reasons he didn't win. He needed to really check his ego at the last TC and give the speech of his life to turn the jury around. Russell couldn't do it.
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Puffy 6702 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 09:44 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I know your number of posts will change eventually, but right now you're at 7777 posts!
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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-22-09, 10:30 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 10:36 AM (EST)Oh come on. I'll let Estee's eloquent words speak for me here: RussHell's jury strategy ultimately broke down to this: grab future voters by the hair, shove their faces into septic tanks, force them to eat the contents while laughing all the while, then say "Now don't you have to respect someone who can do that to you? Be sure to write my name down before the infections finish killing you. Here, have a second helping. I'm generous that way." When your definition of 'respect' is exactly the same as that practiced by major ganglords, you've forgotten the social component of the game -- and you've earned your loss. Russell played one heck of a game, but he did a horrible job handling the social part of the game. His extremely petulant behaviour at the reunion only further supported this viewpoint - he behaved like a spoiled brat who throws a loud hissy fit in a shopping mall at the first "no" from the parent. You did see Russell call Natalie "the bitch", didn't you? With social skills like that, it's no wonder the jury raised their collective middle fingers to him.
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Sunny_Bunny 5597 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 01:53 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 01:54 PM (EST)Dang it, you have all said what I would have said. Right up to the final challenge, RussHell played the game. He had it in the bag - because based on what has happened before, all he had to do was say I'm here, you're there, that says it all. But no, he couldn't help himself. He had to crow to Mick and Natalie the second they got back to camp. He had to keep hammering into Natalie what she could say to the jury, and how it wouldn't do her any good no matter what she said because he was the supreme player. Then he had to become even more obnoxious to the jury, all of which carried a grudge (except for Shambo who still didn't get that he had cut her head off like one of her soulmate chickens.) Since the game was still going on during final TC, Natalie kept quiet and eventually a juror sang her praises and convinced everyone to shoot the ego through the head. Her silence outwitted, outplayed, and outlasted the ego. Her win was a sound one, because he assumed the game ended when he won immunity. What. An. Idiot. 
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Thaibeach 872 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 04:02 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I have to agree with what you all have said. In spite of CBS, EPMB and Probst pushing RussHell down our throats constantly, he's just not a likeable person. And Estee hit the nail on the head - what he did wasn't to play a brilliant social game - he was just the loudest bully on that particular playground, without the social filters to know when to back off, shut up, and let his gameplay speak for itself.And shame on Probst for blogging that the Russell troll was robbed by a bitter jury. He says he isn't taking anything away from Natalie, but of course he is. Shame on him. He has said so many times that surviving is only part of the game - that you have to play a social game as well. I wasn't a huge fan of Natalie's but it isn't fair to her to have her win slighted by bitter little 2-year-old Russell and his pity party enabler and co-host, Probst. 
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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 06:17 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I agree that Russell blew his own chances, dug his own grave. But I thought it was a very poor jury performance, disappointing, particularly Jaison and Shambo.
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Karchita 4483 desperate attention whore postings
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12-30-09, 02:09 PM (EST)
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76. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I thought Shambo was true to form, an idiot from start to finish.
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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 10:05 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 10:07 PM (EST)I really liked Russells game play up until the F3. I realize that he was trying to demoralize Mick and Natalie but it was over the top. His performance at the last TC was simply horrible. You have to show some humility before the jury, acknowledging how each one of them played a role in you getting there. When I saw how the editing went for the F3 I knew that Russell wasn't going to win. One of my problems with this season was the editing. I understand why Russell deserved so much TV time but what they should have shown was maybe a quote or two by Natalie about how she's going to let him take the bullets FOR HER. They could have also shown how she was involved in the strategy to vote people off. All an all I really liked this season. There were a lot of strong characters and personalities. Natalie as the winner reminds me of inVeesible. This season will be remember because of Russell. I'm looking forward to see how he does on A.S.S., and if he tries to use the same strategy. He'll have the advantage of no one else knowing his gameplay, which is very strong, so I see him going far once again.
 DRONES
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 11:21 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
The season was pretty bad up to the merge then it got interesting for a few episodes but it died again after the Laura boot. As for the winner: The jury is ALWAYS right. Natalie deserved to win just for her idea of stroking Russell's ego, the most bloated in Survivor History.
(Considering Lex, Rupert, StepheMe and Coach, that's saying a lot) PS: I thought Shambutch was one of the worst player in History.
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SuperClyde 87 desperate attention whore postings
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12-23-09, 04:28 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
How to play survivor:
Do what is necessary to make sure other people are voted out instead of you.
Russell gets an A+How to win survivor:
Do what is necessary to get the most votes from a bunch of people who may or may not be angry at you.
Russell gets an epic fail. The way to win the game is to get the most votes. You get the most votes by understanding the people that will be voting, knowing what they'll base the votes on, and proving to them that you meet the criteria the best. Take Laura, for instance: We know she perceives herself as a strong woman, but explained often how she felt like mom to the many people there. One might be smart to play to her affections rather than her competitive nature. Russell did not play the best game because he didn't get the most votes. As for Shambo--I would've kept her along for that long, too. A mindless, brainless drone to vote exactly as I say. She's dumber than soap (though her incessant malapropisms had me laughing weekly), but so useful just for that reason. Shambo was never going to win. She was around exactly as long as she was useful to someone smarter. For her, Survivor was an opportunity to fight windmills and pretend they're giants.
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Georjanna 1316 desperate attention whore postings
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12-24-09, 03:17 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-24-09 AT 03:31 AM (EST)It does bother me though that CBS is apparently taking no action against Russell for spoiling 2 entire seasons. I would love to know why CBS is sitting on its hands. The old adage 'Loan a man money and you have a debtor; loan him enough money and you have a partner', perhaps? CBS - with half of SEG's investment in Russell waiting to be aired - and SEG - with the future of the franchise's association with CBS not yet decided - may both be reluctant to drag a 'partner' into court. Or, it could just be that they know something that we don't: that Russell isn't the source. 
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Round Robin 2914 desperate attention whore postings
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12-26-09, 02:03 AM (EST)
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29. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
There have been a lot of contestants who themselves were yappy or who had yappy relatives or friends. You don't get a lot of outright spoilage of the results, but you do see a lot of lesser detail get out. I didn't know the penalty was 5 mil, if it is they must have jacked it up after the Pearl Islands betting scandal.There being more than 1 source spoiler out there would probably make it a lot harder to prove any one person had spilled the beans, so that could pretty much spike any ideas SeeBS or SEG have about suing anybody. I have a feeling, though, that at least 1 of the sources had to be farther inside Survivor than a contestant, because we've known for a while that Natalie was thought to be the winner, and for the name of the winner to get out you almost had to have a production insider leak it out. You could have had jurors and finalists comparing notes, but to have it get out with that degree of confidence and accuracy and get out that early, I think there was somebody VERY deep inside Survivor who leaked the winner out at a very early stage.
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Round Robin 2914 desperate attention whore postings
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12-25-09, 01:08 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
Don't know if I buy that theory. Even before RusSwell's departure, the natives were getting restless in Galu land, and you'd have had Shambo flip at the merge anyway, and you could still have had enough discord among the Galoots to allow the Foa Foas to pick a couple of them off right after the merge, and if that happens it's even-Steven. Had RusSwell not needed to be medevacced, he still would have been in weak shape, and might not have retained enough stroke to hold the Galoots together.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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12-25-09, 08:51 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
geekboy, at my house we agree with you. We were disappointed by the Natalie win. Russell's bragging was tiresome, so I don't love him, but I respected what he did. Natalie didn't have enough strategy for me to be glad she won. So she was nice; being nice shouldn't be enough to win the whole thing, IMHO.I do agree that Russell wasn't very savvy about understanding the mindset of the jury, but I still think he played the best game of the three, as the other two didn't play in my book. I just hate the UTR all the way approach and if I were on a Survivor jury I wouldn't reward it. I think this jury deserves every pejorative said about them. Especially Erik. He was such an idiot. If possible, more self-centered than Russell. He couldn't get over his idea of how the game was working, even after he went out. He thought it was all about tribal. My favorite player on the jury turned out to be John, the one we weren't supposed to like. As for Jaison, why not hold Natalie equally accountable for the blindside? Did SHE tell him? No. She just wrote his name down. She wasn't held to any standard, so people didn't get upset with her. At least Amber was recognized as having strategic involvement with Rob and got her share of anger from the jury. Natalie will go down as one of those players with no key moves. She was "sent" to work the Galu women up against Erik, chosen as the best foot soldier for the job. Where was she when a Galu needed to turn so that the purple rock didn't come into play? Nowhere. Oh well, it won't be the first season ending I didn't like, nor the last I'm sure.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-25-09, 11:55 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
>I do agree that Russell wasn't
>very savvy about understanding the
>mindset of the jury,
I would say that Russell showed as much understanding of the jury as Gengis Khan would have about diplomacy!
The editing made him appear clever but we've seen that he's simply a creep. This megalomaniac is the worst misogynist the series has ever seen. Shame on CBS, Probst and Burnett for pimping him all season long. This article is a good write-up of the season: http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2009/12/survivor_crowns_a_winner_offen.html
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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12-26-09, 04:25 AM (EST)
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30. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I don't take things too seriously that people say on the show. It's TV and people take on a persona. He loves his family, which includes three daughters. Now Brian Heidik was truly creepy with his fake empathy and his lack of soul. Russell grew on me, in spite of being horribly conceited. I liked that he always had his head in it.
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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
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12-26-09, 08:57 AM (EST)
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32. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
It was one thing that he said things and acted the way he did on the show with a purpose to do some crap-stirring (which I have no problem with at all as it's 'outwit-outplay-outlast'), but then we all saw him do his thing on the reunion show which was even worse than the way he acted in the show - arrogant, petulant, misogynistic, condescending with one giant ego run amok. The show is over, he can drop his act - but no, we saw it's not an act but a part of who he is as a human being.
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Slider 29 desperate attention whore postings
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12-26-09, 11:50 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
Great thread! I agree with most what was said. The jury can vote for anyone they want. After all, they were there. While we were entertained by an hour of Russell each week, they had to live with him 24/7. They were the ones he stomped on, so it wasn't entertaining to them, it was personal. I think Estee described what he did perfectly.Personally, I watched this season knowing more spoilers than I wanted to know, and hoped to gain some insight into the dynamics of the tribe and determine how the jurors determined the winner. I didn't have any real favorite this season, but how could I? All we saw was Russell. And really, we didn't see him strategize much other than his self-promoting confessionals. I know he had to discuss strategy with Natalie, Mick, and Jaison, but all that was shown was fluff. In the end, I kind of feel cheated by the editing. We really don't know much of the finalists. I kept hoping Mick would say something. Surely he made a better argument at the final council than he was a deserving dude. We don't know much more about Natalie. An hour a week plus a 2 hour finale of five and a one hour reunion show with 20 people is not enough time to develop these characters when so much of the show is about Russell. One question to Mick at the reunion? And it was about RUSSELL! We didn't even get to hear John speak. I guess I kind of feel empty. I enjoyed the season, but I won't remember much other than Russell, because what else did we see? I think a lot of interesting things must be on the cutting room floor. Thank so much to all of you for your insights and hard work on SOTS, etc. You helped fill in what was missing for me this season. Belated Merry Christmas and I will look foward to hearing from you next season! Slider
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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12-26-09, 05:35 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I'm not arguing to change anybody's mind here. I think we all have our opinions and that's a good thing. I know I'm not going to change my mind. I was disappointed at the ending even though I expected it. The jury disappointed me with their weak performance too. Natalie disappointed me by not making a great speech and not winning the final IC. This post is just to explain why I feel like I do and not to argue with anyone.I agree Russell was a poor sport, not seeing it as a sport at all. As for not seeing more of Mick and Natalie, I think the editors showed us what they had of Natalie strategizing and then some. They even credited her with the Erik boot when Jaison was the one who got that ball rolling. They edited out her failure to even try to get the Gross smoothie down. By leaving us in the dark about Natalie, they allowed us to imagine she was doing more strategizing than she was. As someone else said (can't remember because I read this last night, and maybe it was on Jeff's blog comments) - Natalie didn't even work to save herself when she was on the block at F5. She resorted to prayer. Russell saved her by cleverly talking Mick and Jaison into voting for each other. She would have been gone if he hadn't saved her. Which makes me ask, where was her terrific social game at that juncture? And did anyone ever say, I'm worried about taking Natalie to the end because everyone likes her? No, they said that about Mick. The perception was that Mick had the social game aspect. Then, after Nat's squeaking through F5, Brett would have beaten her easily had he won the last IC. Where was her Jenna Morasca or Danni move of pulling out all the stops when it was all on the line? Russell pulled it out to stop Brett. I respect that. Russell did a poor job at the TC but of all the components of the game he made far more good moves than Natalie. She outlasted, but she didn't outwit or outplay. People say she let Russell take the bullets for her, but that implies she was capable of the plays that created bullets, and I saw no sign that she was. I think Monica did her best to make good on her promise to poison the jury. I think Laura and Kelly were adamant against him. Laura, Brett, and Dave were tight outside the game, and the Christian vote went to Natalie. Something I hate to see in Survivor, votes for people of similar faith to win. Then Shambo did Russell a ton of harm by openly declaring him the only one worth voting for. But basically, Laura, Brett, David, Kelly, Monica were going to vote as a group and that was one sorry bunch of people (other than Brett, who is just young). Like Probst said in his blog, the jury voted against Russell and the majority voted for a person they thought was morally worthy of having the money, not for the person who played the best game of Survivor. I think the editors chose not to show us much of the Galu women because they were petty and small-minded and not very entertaining. Bad casting to fill bikini slots. I think casting sucked for this season, and that's why we got the Russell show.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-26-09, 10:03 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-26-09 AT 10:11 PM (EST)I can understand your POV but I'd like to point out a few things: Natalie did 2 things to save herself at F5: She hustled during that race, staying right up with Mick and then she was further ahead than Jaison with the puzzle. Back at camp, she showed Russell how Jaison had checked out of the game. Besides what we saw, we know from way back when that Mick thought she was good with puzzles which were Brett's strength and Jaison's weakness. That may have come into play. We didn't hear much from Natalie during FTC but we know the jurors were impressed by her answers and that the TC lasted nearly 2 hours. The only conclusion to draw was that many of her answers were cut out to leave a little bit of suspense. You say no one thought Natalie could win jury votes. If that's true then Natalie REALLY outwitted them all because she should have been seen as a jury threat. More likely, some mentioned it but it wasn't shown again for suspense. In the Final IC, upper body strength was a big help so it would have been hard to repeat what Jenna and Danni did. I'm not arguing that Natalie was a great winner or that Russell didn't play well to get to the end but getting to the end is only half the battle. Natalie fooled Russell by stroking his ego. That's playing a smart game and that's what Danni did with Rafe. It seemed as if Jaison and Mick weren't as aware of jury dynamic because they felt Russell was going to be tough to beat!! And, what Probst should be ashamed of what he writes in his blog or says in interviews, particularly about women. He pimped the creep all season long and he's responsible for the mess created after the show. BTW: I watched the Ponderosa clips and found that Kelly was quite interesting.
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performanz 46 desperate attention whore postings
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12-26-09, 11:51 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I vote for Russell as being he most over rated player of all time. He played a terrible social game. I agree he only played to make it to the end. Which is not the same thing as winning.
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Corvis 3130 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 02:30 AM (EST)
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40. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I was going to come on here and just say I agree with OFG - Russell should have won. He was a victim of the worst jury in the history of the show. But really, Dalton Ross said it better than I:"A travesty. That's really the only word for it. Wait, here's another one: A joke. You could also go with absurd, ridiculous, lame. I'm going to make sure that I am absolutely clear about this: Natalie winning over Russell is the worst jury vote in the history of Survivor. That honor previously belonged to the All-Stars season, when a bunch of bitter Bettys couldn't handle being outsmarted by Boston Rob and awarded the million dollars to Amber instead. But this is worse. You may not like Russell. You may consider him cocky, sneaky, and lots of other things. But he OWNED this game, and he owned the final Tribal Council as well. Natalie's opening speech to the jury contained NOT ONE SINGLE REFERENCE to anything she did well in the entire game, just that it was ''the hardest thing I've ever done.'' Hey, hand her the million then! Later, she talked about how her big strategy was to NOT be aggressive. That was her strategy!!! Don't do anything. Again, hand her the million! Look, Natalie seems like an absolute sweetheart. I have nothing against her whatsoever. I hope she enjoys the money and uses it well. The jury members are the people who should be ashamed. And don't give me any of this baloney about the social game. Todd in China blindsided and betrayed and went to the final Tribal Council owning every single move he did. You know how that jury responded? They respected it and handed him a million dollars. Not this time. There is no WAY any of those players can honestly think Natalie played a better game than Russell. They can say they liked her better and would rather give her the million dollars. But no way can they say that she played a better game, no matter what crazy Erik says. And let me make something clear: You may have been rooting for Natalie because you liked her better (And that's fine. I get that.) but if you are voting, and you take that job seriously, you have to put that aside and vote for the best player. Any way you slice it, Natalie was not the best player. Jeff Probst tried his best at the reunion to paint her as a worthy winner, starting off by prompting her to talk about her key move of helping get rid of Erik, and then going out of his way to jumpstart a conversation about how much better her social game was than Russell's, but even he seemed half-hearted in his attempts. Probst knows a dud winner when he sees one. He won't ever say it, but if you read between the lines, you can tell." Of course, Probst did say it later although not using the word "dud". Russell was easily one of the best Survivor players in the history of the show. And he was definitely the best player to never win.
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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 10:19 AM (EST)
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41. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-27-09 AT 10:26 AM (EST)
>Russell was easily one of the
>best Survivor players in the
>history of the show. And
>he was definitely the best
>player to never win.
RussHell was a great player, no question, but I'll give my vote to Rob Mariano for the "best player to never win" title. Russ finished second with a cast of some meh players, while Robfather overcame a cast of experienced Survivor all-stars who knew a thing or two about alliances and deal-making to put himself in a position where it would be either himself or his chosen one (Lamber) as the winner.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 12:18 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-27-09 AT 12:25 PM (EST)
No, the best player to never win is Cirie.
Without Terry's idol, she wins Panama and without the last minute switch to a F2 rather than a F3, she wins Micronesia. And she was so much smarter than both Morono and the creep. Not only did those two didn't understand how a jury works but Cirie made more bold moves than those two put together. AND she rarely got the blame for them. Cirie's great moves include Tina, BobDawg, Courtney, Shane, Yau Man, Joel, Ozzy, Jason and Erik. Morono's great moves in 2 seasons? Hunter and Rob C. When he was in trouble in Marquesas, he couldn't do a single thing even if Sean could have easily been targeted instead. In A$$, Lex gave Chapera the game by voting out Hatch, Colby, Ethan and Jerri. The Creep's great moves? If you remove his delusions of grandeur and Probst's propaganda it comes down to the idol with Kelly and getting Shambutch to trust him. What a player!!!!
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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 01:54 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-27-09 AT 01:55 PM (EST)Although I think Natalie rightfully and deservedly won this season, my vote for "Best ever" goes to Russell, with due respect to Cirie. In Morono's case it was more a case of idiotic (more than in the other seasons) moves by competitors than good moves be him. With Russell, you have a guy that invents moves, the HI initiative being just one of them. My vote for "Most undeservedly crapped upon by the jury" was Mick, and most ignorant jury (mostly due to Shambles and Eric) was this season's jury. Cirie was afraid of leaves, bless her heart, but pure circumstance got her. With Russell, his hubris was his Achilles heel. And rightfully so, that became his downfall. His flaws were greater than his strengths. But his planning and influence on fellow competitors was (IMO) the greatest of anyone. He even planned (or was shown to plan) in some cases how the losing votes would go. I would also vote this season (along with Gabon and Coach's season) as the best ever.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 04:47 PM (EST)
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44. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
In Foa Foa, the creep was designated the strong man so, along with the sabotage of his own team, he has to be held responsible for some of the losses.
As far as moves, there was only the Ben vote that was crucial in FF. That was Jaison's move and Natalie was first to join Jaison's army, going against Russell here.After the merge:
Erik = The Creep had nothing to do with the execution. It was Galu and Natalie.
Kelly = He found the idol. But, was targeting Kelly the right move? Going after a well-liked person caused animosity. Why not go at least for a challenge threat like Brett? Good move but not well tought out.
Laura = It was all Shambutch and John.
John = It was Russell's move and it was dumb. Dave should have gone first to secure the numbers. After that, it was straight pagongning but Russell didn't make the best choices of players to keep. Cirie said she was afraid of what was behind leaves but so what? Did she pull a Mellissa McNulty or a Kathleen? No, so it's a moot point. What is important are the moves she made. Take just the Bobdawg vote. Remember, Cirie "should" have been next after Melinda but the votes were going towards Bruce or Bob. Cirie could have been happy with that but she still got involved. Why? Because Cirie had one secret deal with Danielle and Bruce to go to the F3 on one side and one with Aras and Shane on the other. Bob thought they were together because they were both outsiders. When Bruce was targeted, Cirie used Danielle's dislike of the big guy to make sure the votes would go against Bob because he was her least valuable ally. He never suspected that she was voting against him. Everyone remembers the 3-2-1 vote to get rid of Courtney. How many players pulled that off? I don't think I'll need to go over all the other moves she made to show that, when we talk strategy, no one compares to Cirie. Russell was mostly lucky that Galu destroyed Galu and he was good at finding easy-to-find idols.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 07:15 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
Definitely a case of agreeing to disagree.I do not give Natalie the credit for Erik. All of us noted, including you michel, that the recap starting the following episode awarded credit to Natalie that belonged to Jaison. Jaison started the momentum towards Erik. Before the merge, Foa Foa as a group made a strategy where Natalie would play the Galu women. Mick remarked on it before the fact and so did Russell. That's why they booted Liz. Natalie wasn't the captain on that one; she was executing strategy devised by the group. Russell got all over Liz for not understanding why it was important to put Natalie and Laura together to talk about faith books as that was the plan. Russell struck out with Laura, but he knew enough to send in Natalie where his own play wasn't working. The whole Erik boot, Foa Foa had to pretend to Galu that they were willing to look out for themselves individually and throw Russell to the wolves. There was an appearance that they left him out of the loop, but I think there is very little chance that it really went down that way. Jaison would have consulted with Russell, just as Natalie did tell him she thought she had sold Erik. In addition, even though Russell didn't need to play the idol, he was willing to cover the bases in case Galu was leading Nat on, as they should have been if they weren't such idiots, to knock out the idol holder. He was willing to play what most people seem compelled to hold onto as a future safety net. As for Natalie working Russell at F5, not impressed. Russ wanted to keep her. The statement has been made that Nat had a great friendship with Mick. In that case, why didn't she go to him and get him to vote Jaison? Why didn't she go work Brett? Then come back to Russell and say I've got it? To me that is what a great Survivor player does, is make the game change when it is going against you. Jaison was a big baby and wanted to quit. Russell rallied him. Russell set an example for his tribe during the rain by not huddling in the shelter. He never let the environment get him down. While his "chaos" strategy was pretty bizarre, it was something new. In hindsight, not such a good idea. However, when he saw his tribe was down and losing, he started providing for them and gave his all in the challenges. It was not Russell's fault that the tribe's star provider, Ben, was too toxic to keep around. Galu benefited from having three providers (Russell, Shambo, Dave, and marginally Erik). The worst thing about Russell for me is he likes to brag to the camera, which is boring, and the editors showed way too much of it. Natalie played essentially the same game as Becky in the Cooks and Cassandra in Fiji, and neither one of those women got a single jury vote.
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Slider 29 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 08:52 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
Outfront Girl, I can't really argue with your point of view, as you make your case well, and it is your opinion. It is hard to know who was responsible for certain moves (Eric), as Jeff gave credit to diffent players each week. However, there is one major difference between Figi, Cooks, and Samoa. Yul and Earl were both perceived to be men of honor. Yul went along with Adam to get rid of Jonathan, and Earl had the good sense when asked by Yau why he voted him out to say that he did it because he thought Yau would beat him. Oh, and Ozzy was a challenge king. All these men earned votes, so the jury didn't have to vote for the goat.If Russell had been a little more diplomatic, I'm sure he would have won. He blew it with his arrogance.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 09:27 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I absolutely agree with you slider. Yep, I would never say that Cooks and Fiji were analagous to Samoa. Both seasons had unobjectionable candidates in the strong or strategic male category.I only meant that Natalie played a coattail game that has historically not been rewarded with votes unless the jury had a beef with the more aggressive player. In other words, that sort of player benefits from a vote AGAINST the strong player by a disgruntled jury, but is not recognized as a worthy player unless the strong player does himself or herself in through lack of mollifying the jury. Amanda played a better game than Natalie IMHO, but Todd had a better audience and a better spiel. To me, Natalie is less deserving than Amanda. She was smart enough not to get all defensive at TC; I do give her that. But we don't know if she might not have cracked if the jury had really socked it to her, the way they did to Amanda and also to Stephen last season. Kelly and Shambo weren't too kind to Natalie, and I could see it getting it to her with Kelly. But then she had it handed to her on a plate by Erik without having to say a thing. Erik is weird. He destroyed Mick's chances, and then this afterwards? 
Mick is a good sport, I'd say. Erik just had to keep the rivalry going between Galu and Foa Foa leaders, and I think that's why he made it his mission to take down the alpha males at TC, to say they were not worthy and not honorable enough to take the title that should have been Erik's (a legend in his own mind).
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 09:20 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
No question that the Erik move was more Galu than anyone else. Jaison uttered the words first but that means nothing if he can only get 4 votes together. At least Natalie started the ball rolling. Not much but nothing post merge was much Foa Foa's work. Galu destroyed Galu. That's mainly why Galu didn't respect Russell's game. They saw it as their mistake rather than his accomplishment. (About the following recap, I noted that Jaison received none of the credit, certainly not that he alone deserved it.)
On the F5, I doubt that Natalie didn't talk to Brett or Mick. Brett did know about it, didn't he? Natalie had to get Russell on her side, the rest flowed from there.
Another of Russell's move that rejoiced his fans but was really stupid was keeping the idol as souvenir. Not really because it showed more cockyness to the jury; the plate was already full, but something I haven't seen mentioned: Russell kept the idol because he was sure he wasn't receiving any votes. If I had been in that position, I would have asked myself: "If I think I'm assured of winning the jury votes, why wouldn't I be a target? Could I possibly be missing something? Could I be the goat?" Russell was missing that analytical mind needed for any sound strategy. He was always more terrorist than strategist.
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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-28-09, 11:28 AM (EST)
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57. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
"Russell was missing that analytical mind needed for any sound strategy. He was always more terrorist than strategist."If I understand this correctly, then I have to disagree. The major strength in Russell’s play was his strategic moves. He was brilliant at strategy, amazing with finding hidden idols, and one hell of a manipulator. He just had no social game, and no insight as to how Survivor juries select winners (and OK, if that - the lack of ability to understand jury thinking - is the strategy you refer to, then I will partially un-disagree with you). He thought people would vote based on what he thought was worthy game play, forgetting or unaware that people will vote for someone they like over someone they do not like every time. Even so, he might have won at the end if hubris had not led him to describe how he was principally responsible for each of the key ousters, in effect rubbing several jurors noses in their stupidity, his duplicity, and his ego driven perception of superiority. I can't explain why John voted for him, perhaps he was able to see Russell’s play as out-everythinging, but Shambo's lack of mental capacity explains why she did, in spite of the fact the Russell, more than any other person, led her along the path that basically eliminated any chance she might have had. Which, of course, was zero anyway.
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Snidget 44369 desperate attention whore postings
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12-28-09, 12:01 PM (EST)
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58. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
There was some statements by John that I think he shared Russell's view that everyone else on the show was an idiot. Russell was just better than him at getting the idiots to keep Russell then he was at getting the idiots to keep him.Both seemed to think the purpose of the other people in the game was to see how brilliant they were and do their bidding and hand them the win. That other people have motivations in the game that have nothing to do with handing it to Russell or handing it to John didn't seem to cross either one's mind. So I think there was something that resonated with John. Russell was pretty good at finding the crack to target whoever was not him or who needed him/he could rely on. As good as he was at that (who do other people want to vote out) he didn't seem to be good a reading how people felt about him as a person. I think that is why some think he played a good social game and some didn't. Both are part of the social aspect of the game, but usually to win you need some of both. You gotta know if they hate you and work with that to get the votes. If all you give them is one more reason to hate you, that isn't going to win the votes. I think a small amount of "y'all had game too", even if he truly thinks everyone else was there for a vacation and had no intent in playing the game or winning the money could have, IMO swayed the jury. It is starting from the assumption other people want to win, and will have some emotion about not being in the finals vs no one else played like me so no one else cared if they won or lost. I know some people find other things to take away from the game even if they lose, and some people are more about the journey or the adventure than they are about needing the win to feel validated, but assuming some part of everyone would rather win the million than hand to to me probably not a bad assumption. Russell seemed to assume everyone really wanted to see him there in the end. Just because they didn't vote you out, especially if the main reason was you had an idol to protect you, doesn't mean they want to see you win. Just means they didn't figure out how to get you out usually with a bit your allies needed you, or they figured that you wouldn't be able to mitigate the hate so better to have you at the end so the bitter ones vote against you.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-28-09, 02:16 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
"The major strength in Russell’s play was his strategic moves. He was brilliant at strategy, amazing with finding hidden idols, and one hell of a manipulator."
I'm rather fond of my terrorist comparison so let me explain:
In my view, moves are tactics. Strategy is the overall plan to get from 20 survivors on Day 1 all the way to Sole Survivor on Day 39. That requires a very analytical mind to first understand people, get to know what makes them tick, form an alliance that will appear beneficial to them while serving your own purpose. The moves, the tactics, have to work together towards your long term plan, your strategy. Along the way, you get to know your competitors and that helps you not only manipulate them but see who should go now, who should be on the jury, how to get them there and who should be with you in the end, the one(s) you can beat. That's how a strategist plays Survivor. Somehow, the ones that rode Russell fill this definition more than the creep himself! Russell didn't bother with the other players. His goal was to create chaos, to get everyone on edge, to treat everyone like sub-humans (mindless zombies he called them) and to simply "kill" everyone that opposed him. That's as close to terrorism as we've seen on Survivor. An example of his lack of analytical mind: He saw that Ben would be useful to him. (The mind was sick but the guy was still clever.) Instead of taking Ben under his wing, telling him to cool it and wait for the right moment to get even, he encouraged the Outlaw behavior. Ben would have been a great goat or a good juror for Russell but he wasted that opportunity AND weakened his team even more before the merge when he had to let him go.
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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-28-09, 02:36 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
OK. FTR, I like the terrorist description too. I think we are just defining terms, not really disagreeing on much more than Russell's place in Survivor history. And I am/was a great admirer of Cirie and her evolution as a strategist throughout her season.
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LFJ 363 desperate attention whore postings
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12-28-09, 02:18 PM (EST)
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61. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I don't think Russell had any notion of what a Jury is - a number of people who, for whatever reason, and coming from disparate backgrounds, percieving everything and everyone differently, come together and are empowered for one thing, and one thing only - to decide the fate of another person. If, as you say in one of your posts, you are cynical, then you might refer to a Jury as a group of "little people with limited power" who are hellbent on doing as much damage as possible before their brief shining moment is over.That is not to say that I believe this is true of every jury, but it could be, and in this case, it was. Juries have been known to issue stunningly, profoundly stupid verdicts based on absolutely nothing more than whim or prejudice. Are juries always right? Only in Survivor. (I do think that is what you meant.)
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-28-09, 02:34 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
>Are juries always right? Only
>in Survivor. (I do think
>that is what you meant.) Well? Unless I don't understand the law... I think that a verdict cannot be appealed by simply saying the jury was wrong. An appeal has to be based on a point of law, a mistake by the judge, new evidence, etc... If I'm correct, it means that, according to the evidence presented, the jury is assumed to have been right. But yes, I was mainly refering to the Survivor jury because any new evidence was terribly tampered with by Burnett's editors and, if Probst made any mistakes, it was by being partial to the creep every time the jury was in session.
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LFJ 363 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-09, 02:39 PM (EST)
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74. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
And art imitates life, as in "If the glove don't fit, you must aquit".
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 09:29 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
Love the Dalton interview, Corvis. Thanks for that; I hadn't seen it.
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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
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12-28-09, 09:58 AM (EST)
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56. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-28-09 AT 10:08 AM (EST)Well, I agree that it was a pretty bad jury performance. First Jaison asked all three to explain who they really are and then he filled in the "blank" that no one should vote based on any perceived "need" for the money. This had nothing to do with the game and only evened the playing field on one narrow voting criterion. And was probably unnecessary. At least he gave all three a chance to speak. Then Shambo came out, tore into Mick, then tore into Natalie. Both got a chance to respond and then were dismissed, Shambo called BS on Natalie. (Mick flubbed this one, Nat stuck to her gameplan.) Then she praised Russ, made it clear she'd decided Russ should win, and walked off with Russ not having to respond. Then Brett came out and asked Mick on a "bro date." Okay, he wanted to know how well Mick had gotten to know him, no way for me to determine how well Mick responded. This was all kind of amusing but if Brett had anything for Natalie or Russell it was left on the editing room floor. Three wasted opportunities right off the bat. Kelly came out, got on Nat's case for being a weakling, Nat responded again explaining her gameplan and why, standing her ground according to plan. Then Kelly wanted to know if Russ was in real life the (paraphrased) evil troll he'd been in the game, basically throwing him a lifeline, and for once Russell dropped the act and made an attempt to redeem himself. She had nothing for Mick but at least Kelly got this FTC back on track. Monica wanted to know "why the two people sitting next to you don't deserve" the million dollars. Great jury question. She had Mick go first, he basically said Natalie was a follower and Russ had lied, mislead, pit people against each other, and Russ's ego wow had gotten really out of hand. This led to Russ jumping in right away, not waiting his turn; he threw Nat and Mick under the bus on the grounds that they were as bad as him, and so on. Bad move, he should have waited his turn (but maybe he thought he wouldn't get a turn and who could blame him for thinking that). Nat said nothing throughout any of this, Monica decided she was done. Best two jury performances of the night, it goes back downhill from there. Dave asked all three what they thought their chances were (Mick 20-25%, Nat 30-40%, Russ down to 55%). Laura wanted to know from Russ what he'd learned about her that allowed him to beat her, he said he knew she was the biggest threat on Galu and was in control; good question but she had nothing for Mick or Natalie. John asked "why should I write your name down"; good question, asked Mick and Natalie, ignored Russell. Then Erik came out with, I guess, his version of Sue's "Rats and Snakes" speech from season 1, in favor of Ratalie. Another wasted opportunity.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 09:42 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-27-09 AT 11:26 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON 12-27-09 AT 11:24 PM (EST) Mick's interview with RTVW has some good insight that don't seem to come from a place of wanting to make excuses. Reality TV World: So what do you think happened? Mick: I don't know. I think Erik Cardona had a really good speech that turned a few people off. Later on he said a lot of it was actually directed towards his own tribe in a sense. I think he was so tight with Russell Swan and Galu and started making some comparisons, which I don't think were really fair. I think it swayed at least a couple away from either voting for me or from voting for Russell and pushed some votes Natalie's way. Reality TV World: The jury recognized Natalie's strategy of not playing overly aggressive and kind of laying low until the right moment, however they gave you no credit even though it seemed like you basically employed the same strategy. Why do you think Natalie was rewarded for that strategy but you weren't? Mick: That's a tough question to answer. I think part of it was also she was one girl sitting between a couple of guys. Even a couple of girls got up there and said, "Listen, I want to vote for you just tell me why I should." So I think it was a little bit easier of a point for her to argue for her to swing those votes, and she did have better connections with the women on Galu. She was in there with them every night and they became a pretty tight unit. She definitely got those votes. In terms of some of the guys, they like the stronger gameplay that Russell showed. I would have too I think if I were them, I probably would have voted for Russell as well in terms of gameplay. Reality TV World: I've already talked to Jaison and Brett this morning, and they said a majority of the jurors was undecided between you and Natalie heading into that final Tribal Council. They attributed Natalie's delivery to the jury as what put her over the edge. Did you get any sense of that while Tribal was going on? Do you think your delivery was a problem? Mick: Yeah. In hindsight, I'm sure there was some issue with it. At the time, it's so kind of anxiety provoking -- you're exhausted, you're thirsty, you're hungry, you're tired. You do the best you can in that moment. Obviously I could have done better, it shows by the number of votes that I did or didn't get. Reality TV World: You made several disparaging comments about Russell's strategy during the final Tribal Council. Do you think that had any impact in swaying the jury vote in Natalie's favor or do you think by that point there was no way Russell was winning? Mick: I think that for some people, I was kind of the good guy. For me to come on and finally open up and say something really negative about somebody who I was particularly close to -- that person being Russell -- it probably did sway a few people. They were like, "God, if his own teammates can hardly stand the guy, did he really make any sort of attempts at showing an ounce of humanity or humility on this thing?" So I think it probably did for at least one or two people, if not more, getting votes against him Reality TV World: You told the jury you didn't compromise your morals during the competition. Can you explain what you meant by that, because like Russell noted, you had no problem "following the snake" all the way to the Final 3. Mick: If somebody's going to cut that path, I don't see any reason not to follow it. He basically stood up and was like, "I will take the bullet, that's fine." If I can get through it without treating the people the way he did and kind of stay within the confines of how I normally deal with people, I wanted to stay within those sort of limitations. Maybe it burned me a little bit in the end. Reality TV World: Do you think there's any way you would have made it as far as you did without Russell? Mick: Oh... With those numbers going into , we absolutely needed a guy that was playing that hard. He was almost possessed out there. (laughing) It would have been pretty damn hard. I don't know if the rest of us three would have or could have stepped up and played that hard. I think without that dominating of a player, it is going to push you more to kind of fill in that sort of gap. But I think he was definitely necessary to make it that far.
................Reality TV World: Looking at it as objectively as you can, do you think the jury votes were based more on a belief that Natalie deserved to win or that Russell didn't deserve to win? Mick: Oof... I think initially it was that Russell did not deserve to win. But then I think Natalie's speeches were pretty compelling. I think she played to people who otherwise thought she just kind of trailed along, I think she was able to present herself as a more strategic and more intelligent player than maybe they would have given her credit for without her speech or without her ability to answer some of those questions pretty well." I do give Natalie credit on handling the jurors well. It's just that she would not have gotten in front of them without Russell's decision to get her there. No way. And to me, if I were a juror, I would want to vote for someone who clearly managed to get there on his or her own steam.
________________________ I think this addresses the idea that people were keeping Russell as the goat. They stuck with Russell because he was getting them to the end. Mick himself probably would have voted for Russell (above), so I doubt he saw him as an easy person to beat. "Reality TV World: You seemed aware of how dangerous Russell was throughout at least most of the competition and seemed to at least be considering blindsiding him when you told Monica Padilla and Brett the snake fable in the shelter. What made you decide to continue to remain loyal to him and not go after him? Mick: It made sense to keep him. We were backed into a corner, and so we had to... Although there was a certain amount of distrust there. I trusted him more than I did the Galu people, that's for sure. They had no alliance with me. As things went on, he generally kept his word to me. I was never led astray. Time and time again, thinks worked out the way we had talked about and planned. "
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Slider 29 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
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12-27-09, 10:15 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
Thanks for the interviews! According to this interview, it seems that the jury was deciding between Mick and Natalie (an anti-Russell vote).I think Natalie won by keeping her mouth shut, and by Eric deciding to make some kind of moral judgement on her. Really, you could have substitued Mick for Natalie in his statement, but for some reason, he really wanted to reward Natalie. Amanda could not hold up to the questions, she was a great player up to final tribal councils. Juries obviously don't respect a player who tries to act remorseful. I'm sure it was genuine, but it didn't play that way. Again, Mick was dumped on by the jury and the editors! I still am shocked that Jeff asked him one question - about Russell! Really, none of the three knocked my socks off. Slider
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-27-09, 11:51 PM (EST)
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53. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
>I think Natalie won by keeping
>her mouth shut...Natalie said that she didn't push too much because she saw how the jury was reacting but there's still this part: "Mick: Oof... I think initially it was that Russell did not deserve to win. But then I think Natalie's speeches were pretty compelling. I think she played to people who otherwise thought she just kind of trailed along, I think she was able to present herself as a more strategic and more intelligent player than maybe they would have given her credit for without her speech or without her ability to answer some of those questions pretty well." As for Dalton's interview, I think he's too close to CBS and is following the company line. They're all setting up next season.
It's all about ratings and Dalton's blog profits from Survivor's popularity.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-28-09, 08:39 AM (EST)
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55. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-28-09 AT 08:48 AM (EST)
Possible. I'm usually much more cynical than the average viewers. For example, I can already imagine the promos: "Some have called this evil puppetmaster the greatest player ever but he was robbed the first time. Can he get his revenge this time?" Then we cut to Hantz in his Samoa confessional: "I should be here with Superstars."
(Wasn't that just perfect?!! One could almost think it was scripted!) I can also see Dalton's stupid smile as he's pimping his pre-season interview of the terrorist (See, I'm promoting my own view of the creep!). Did you watch Dalton's weekly post-game interviews? It was much more about Dalton himself and his stupid pranks than about hearing the thoughts of the "Losers". As I wrote above, Hantz made very few good moves and the jury is always right. It's not this particular decision I'm endorsing as much as underlining their absolutely unique position to make that decision. No one, not even Probst, can substitute a personal opinion to their vote.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-28-09, 07:08 PM (EST)
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66. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
>>> the jury is always rightwell, goes to show you how differently we can see this game. From my perspective, the jury is not RIGHT; they are empowered to each cast a vote in an attempt to control the outcome of the game; it is a continuation of the game for most of them, and only some will manage to put their egos aside and meditate on what makes a worthy winner. In our justice system we try to secure a neutral jury to decide a "right" outcome, and that jury is instructed. In Survivor, the jury process is essentially putting the aggrieved victims in charge of the trying and sentencing, without restraints or instructions or guidelines. They can ask whatever stupid question they want or they can run off their mouths. By definition they are all losers in a very stressful game, some more back to normality than others. The finalists have to abide by the quirks and vagaries of the jury minds. They know that's the deal going in. However, the TV audience is just as free to hate the jury decision as to hate the finalists. We don't automatically respect finalists for getting there and we don't automatically respect the jury. They ALL have to earn it from the public, and deal with the flack if they disappoint us. WE are the ultimate deciding force on how long or good their little fifteen minute ride is going to be. I think this jury sucked, other than John, and I am perfectly comfortable with feeling that way! You of course are free to feel they made a good decision. But don't tell me these morons are automatically RIGHT, no matter what choice they make. Power and right are rare bedfellows. 
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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12-28-09, 07:40 PM (EST)
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68. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
"The finalists have to abide by the quirks and vagaries of the jury minds."The finalists have time to get to know those future jurors and see what are their quirks. They choose most of their own jury. Jenna Morasca wasn't the brightest player but she knew Rodger couldn't be allowed in the jury house if a woman was to have a chance.
Morono, by his own actions, lost a vote when he made a useless F2 promise to Alicia and another when he went after Tom at F5 and insulted his son.
Russell wanted to be the person responsible for everyone's eviction. He could have shared the blame but no, his ego forced him to tell them: "I'm your assassin." How is that good gameplay? Which players were most resposible for Galu's downfall? Shambo and John.
Which players still feel justified for their STUPID actions: Shambo and John.
Which jurors voted for the creep: Shambo and John. I see a correlation there. The rest of the jury didn't think Russell was great, they thought those two were morons. Losing a 8-4 lead is moronic. Nothing Russell could have possibly done would have worked if Galu had simply played junior varsity survivor. And maybe another difference is that I don't hate or love anyone. (Ben this season was a true exception) I don't know these people so I look at them as characters and enjoy their stories. I even enjoyed Russell until the reunion and his interviews. Guess what? Had he won I would have been impressed by his performance. Now? He didn't impress me.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-28-09, 08:17 PM (EST)
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70. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
I don't really want to argue about that stuff. I don't think Russell handled the jury the best and I said that. I don't share your loathing of Shambo. She did nothing wrong. She made essentially the same move Erinn made in Tocantins, the same move Susie made in Gabon, the same move Neleh and Paschal made in Marquesas. The dominant alliance gets cocky and fails to woo the person on the bottom of the pecking order, and the folks on the bottom jump. That's the game, and the Galu who ostracized Shambo bear all the responsibility for their own downfall, same as Coach could hardly whine about Erinn. In addition, Galu voted out Shambo's best ally, Erik, without giving her a say. DUH, she flips.Before Sham's vote even came into it, Dave insisted on trying to vote out someone who not only had the idol but was known to be quite willing to play it. DUH By the time John made a difference it was a purple rock scenario. He didn't like Laura. Galu didn't really like him. Again, he was on the outs, so why should he draw a rock? michel, I'm not trying to tell you that you need to appreciate Russell. It's nothing to me how other people feel about it. I'm just sticking my ground on holding my own opinion and I can't possibly be argued into enjoying Natalie's 7-2 victory because it left me feeling the whole thing fell flat - and I thought the jury was lame. They were not entertaining. Editing crammed the whole Q&A into what, 10 minutes? Less than one minute apiece for nine jurors? The editors clearly felt it wasn't very good material and made short shrift of it. We've seen Q&A and statements from a 7 person jury 2 finalist TC take up 30 minutes before and deliver. These people have days to stuff their face and drink and yap to each other, but could they take some time to think up something original and clever to say on national TV? This group failed abysmally. None of their speeches were memorable. IMHO of course.
`If there's no meaning in it,' said the King, `that saves a world of trouble, you know, as we needn't try to find any. ~ Lewis Carroll
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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-28-09, 09:28 PM (EST)
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71. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
It's really weird how we could all see the same stuff and come to such different viewpoints. OK, maybe not so weird after all. In fact, that's part of what makes this fun.FTR, I despised Shambo, I hate self deception, and to me she epitomized that. Not gonna argue if anyone wants to advance the opinion that there are other self deceivers out there, but for me, Shambo was the weakest, she had an unnecessary and ugly mean streak, and she had not the faintest idea or sense of introspection. Competing with that was the fact that she provided most of the comic relief, and I liked that. So I hated her, but I was glad she lasted as long as she did. I hated Russ at first, but began to admire his strategy and ability to manipulate (IMO the best in Survivor history), and found myself actually kinda liking the guy at the end. But I predicted that he would scuttle any chance he had at winning with his final statements, that he would not be able to help bragging, that that was too much a part of his character. And it was, and he did. So I feel vindication there. Still, admiration of his approach to the game and execution of his formulated strategy remains. I liked Nat, liked her spunk, liked her accidentally getting in a position to win, and, like the proverbial Hail Mary in football is a beautiful thing to see, I liked that she won. She charmed me. I wish we could all have been on the same couch during the entire season, except that I would not have enjoyed being out-factualized. Every time someone would have begun to throw past season facts at me, I would have had to spill the popcorn, or something. Even though I have seen almost every episode of every season, I retain generalities, and not so many details.
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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-29-09, 10:10 AM (EST)
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73. "RE: Thoughts On The Season" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-29-09 AT 10:37 AM (EST)...Dave insisted on trying to vote out someone who not only had the idol but was known to be quite willing to play it. DUH This was a major mistake, no doubt. At 8 to 4 everyone knew Russell had the HII (Erik hadn't let on that he had one). Knowing where it is, who has it, is tremendously useful information. How it would have gone had they decided to boot a Foa Foa instead of Erik, Russell was so shaken he probably would have played the HII then anyway, but a Foa Foa would have been first on the jury. After that they would have had the numbers to split their vote 5 on Russell and 3 on a Foa Foa until all the Foa Foa were gone. Even at 8 to 4 they could have split their vote safely, 4 and 4, knowing it would go to a tiebreaker vote. All of which is to say there are ways to safely target someone holding the HII, especially when you know who has it.
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