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"Difference between Tom and Stephanie"
esquire 1095 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest"
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12-12-05, 09:20 AM (EST)
 
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"Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
Tom and Stephanie were both strong personalities that seemed to dominate their tribe. They were both responsible for voting out many of their own tribemates. I think they played similar games. And yet Tom won 6-1 and Stephanie lost 6-1. Why do you guys think that Stephanie failed where Tom succeeded and what does that tell usd about game stategy in the future?
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zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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12-12-05, 11:00 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
I generally agree with the comments above. I think it basically comes down to personalities--the personalities of the people controlling the game (Tom and Steph (although I think Rafe had a lot more control than many people give him credit for) and the personalities of the opponents (Katie and Danni (who in my opinion looks like a completely different person with make-up, not to change the subject)). Tom was more likable than Katie, and Danni was more likable than Steph.Eveyone tries to talk about how they are voting for the person they think "deserves" to win more between the two. That is a load of BS. Like virtually every vote in any social situation, it is a popularity contest. Just look at past seasons. Kelly made more enemies than Rich. Tina was better liked than Colby. Everyone liked Ethan and Kim was not that well liked. I could go on--season by season--but you get the picture. I think there are a few leasons that can be taken from this season (as well as past seasons): 1) Be nice to everyone. There is almost never any benefit to being mean (unless you think it is the only way to get to finals but that is a recipe for second place at best). 2) Don't betray an ally unless you have to. Getting rid of Judd before Lydia and Danni was stupid. Getting rid of Jamie before them also might have been stupid--but not as stupid because the guy was nuts. Allies understand that once only alliance members are left, an alliance member must go. A big exception to this rule, however, is where you know that you are at the bottom of your alliance and can ally with others to take out the people controlling your alliance (think Paschal and Neleh). This exception is not really an exception because in such a case you "have to" betray the ally to have any chance to get to the finals. Jamie and Judd did not have to be eliminated for Steph and/or Rafe to have a good chance at getting to the finals. 3) Make sure you don't let an "underdog" through. An underdog almost always seems nice and did not have to make enemies by stabbing allies (Chris from Vanuatu should have taught them this lesson--although Twila might have lost to about anyone). Go to the finals with someone that has been a long-term ally who can also be seen as having made the same "backstabbing" moves (and try to pick the ally that is less well liked than you are if one exists--if one does not exist, then you probably cannot do better than 2d place). Of course when players have followed this rule, it tends to be a pretty boring series (think Brian from Thailand). However, if you are playing the game you are there to win $1 million, not to entertain the audience. As much as Steph and Rafe seem to have been students of the game--they did not seem to understand these leasons fully (although Rafe generally was nice to everyone) and it cost them the game. If Rafe did not have his head up his butt, he probably would have won the game (getting rid of Danni at F4 was an obviously required move and I cannot believe how stubborn and stupid he was not to make this move and then Steph probably wins last immunity and takes Rafe (although some risk she would have taken Lydia)). Maybe next season the players that control the game will understand how to win the end game. zzz
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-12-05, 11:09 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
If you only look at final votes, the main difference was that Danni was not Katie.
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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-12-05, 01:18 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-12-05 AT 01:19 PM (EST)When it comes down to F2, the win invariably goes to who speaks better for him/herself. In some F2s that may not be a big or noticeable difference. S1: Richard kept a positive attitude and explained himself, Kelly seemed desperate and uncertain of herself. S2: Tina maintained a nice but firm Mommy stance, Colby stood his ground but clammed up a few times when he should have spoken up. S3: Negligable difference, except Ethan maintained his positive attitude while Mama Kim went on the defensive. S4: Vecepia wasn't great but Neleh seemed very immature and uncertain of herself. S5: Brian and Clay both saw the other as the bad guy, the more articulate Brian won the day against the stammering Clay. S6: Jenna was uncertain but Matt determined that the jury was against him and wouldn't play along. S7: Sandra went into it with her head held high, Lillian was a shambles. S8: Lex verbally KOed Rob amd Amber wisely let him take the fall. S9: Two strong players, the more articulate Chris took the win from verbally-challenged Twila. S10: Tom stood up for himself, Katie mailed it in. S11: Danni stood her ground, Stephenie fumbled for answers and contradicted herself in her final comments.
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Fishercat 4168 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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12-12-05, 03:08 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
I think there are some differences in there.The most obvious one is, as has been said, Danni is not Katie. If Steph took on Katie in the F2, I think Steph may have won. Likewise, if Tom took on Danni, it'd be extremely close. Very often, it's not just who you are and what you do, it's who you do it with. Steph took Chris v.2, Tom took Katie (who I personally didn't mind). Whoops. My secondary factors start off with perception. As has been said, and although I do not agree with this point, perhaps the idea that Steph won several thousand dollars and had a previous Survivor experience came into play. I don't agree, but throwing the idea out there. Tom was a leader in all aspects of the game. I seem to remember him being good at camp, being the catalyst in almost every challenge, being a leader in general. He also ran the game, but was able to cover up his missteps (of which there were few, see next) by his actions in camp. Steph ate a lot of food, sat on the ruins, and was a strategical figurehead while being 10-26 (I think) overall in challenges. Perhaps the biggest factor is the core alliance. Going into the jury, the only vote you could say is almost guaranteed against Steph is Bobby Jon. Now, if she wanted to, Steph could have run down the remaining minority (Gary, then Danni), then take out Lydia, Cindy, Jamie, Rafe/Judd (I think either Rafe or Judd take Steph with them). In that order, no one could realistically hold the vote against Steph unless she promises one of them a stay and then boot (once again, see next). However, she dissolved a core alliance along the way. She took out Jamie quickly, got him angry (Vote #2). She waited a week, then took out Judd with a backstab no less (Vote #3). She then let Danni stay in by taking out Cindy and Lydia (no big), and then Rafe went home not by her own doing. However, she could have alleviated Judd's vote by telling him (tell Cindy to boot Judd, and then tell Judd that she's powerless to help). Jamie was tough, but I just think ditching him was idiotic. However, with Tom, you have Tom as Steph, Katie as Judd, and Ian as Rafe (not perfect, but it'll do. If you want to deviate from personalities, go Katie as Danni). If Tom cut Katie off and let Ian lose that IC and take ???, who knows. Some notable differences, controllable and not, made these two people different.
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CattyChat 3379 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
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12-12-05, 03:12 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
Astute observations by all and I agree with most.I think the most emphasis is on despicable worthless nasty Katie, while Danni was nice, deserving, never rude to anyone & ATTRACTIVE. (Looks play a part in everything these days). Secondly, Steph was REALLY whiney, bossy & was a poor sport to anyone who did not cater to her (i.e. treatment of Lydia for Lydia knocking her out of a reward challenge). Tom was the polar opposite. Also, Tom didn't "backstab" each of his alliance members the way Steph did. Also, a lot of truth could be to the fact that this was Steph's second chance & that really wasn't fair to the "first-timers." The more I thought about it, the more I realized that Steph really played a POOR game. She would have probably won, if she didn't "foolishly" cut ties with her tightest alliance members. I think Judd, especially, & also Cindy would have blindly followed anything Steph uttered & if she went final 2 with either of them, she would have won for being the more likable player vs Judd (& the smarter of the dumb & dumber duo they were) and the stronger, better & not-under-the-radar player of the game vs Cindy. So, IMO, Tom leaves Steph in the dust, both in STRATEGY & CHARACTER. 
Kind Creation of ARNutz
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-12-05, 07:05 PM (EST)
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8. "Tom didn't have a tribal switch" |
The biggest variable in this game is the tribal switch. Tom was lucky not to have one since that clearly favors the leader of the strong alliance. Stephenie handled the switch admirably. She's the one that got Judd over, not Rafe. That gave them the numbers. She wasn't the one that busted the alliance, it was Rafe that made those stupid moves. Finally, you can't control jury votes, you can only plan to reach F2. Steph wasn't ready to go up against Danni who probably had the best grasp of the social aspect of the game of all the survivors to ever play.
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Fishercat 4168 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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12-12-05, 10:33 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Tom didn't have a tribal switch" |
I disagree. You had me well into "She wasn't...". I can't really disagree with what you said before. However, she may not have been the one that busted the alliance, but she was very willing to not implicate Rafe, therefore giving the image that she did. And really, that's all that matters. The person behind the curtain may be controlling the puppets, but people only care about the puppet, what the puppet does. Stephenie was not willing to implicate Rafe at any point. She could have easily told Judd that "Lydia, Danni, Rafe, and Cindy (tell her before hand) decided to boot you, and I don't like it but I can't do anything". She could have easily stayed close with Rafe, but made sure that she didn't take the brunt of all these moves. Rafe was smart, he may have been controlling a lot, but does it matter when no one in the game notices? She let Rafe put her as his shield, and that was dumb. She allowed the alliance to be busted and she had numerous opportunities to, at least, alleviate the potential impact. You CAN control jury votes. Other than a completely unimpressive performance at the jury spot, she could have easily had a shot at a few more votes. I am going to assume that BJ, Jamie, Rafe and Gary are all accounted for. Judd was pissed because he was voted out, but also because he was backstabbed and Steph lied to his wife. Would he have been as pissed at Steph if she made everyone else out to get him and not her? For Lydia, Lydia was clearly upset at her eating all the time, but I think moreso at not telling Lydia she was going home when she specifically asked her to. Steph clearly wasn't going to risk a 2-2 split (although, that would have been a decent move for her, whatever), so tell Lydia. Maybe she would have had more of shot there. Cindy would have been the swing then, and who knows. I don't know what she could have done there, Cindy is just such a blur to me. She can't really control who is ON the jury, but she sure could control how they voted, and she didn't, and she lost by a landslide. And really, they should have gotten rid of Danni right when they ditched Brandon, BJ, and Gary, right where Jamie went home. Then go for your own guys.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-12-05, 11:27 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Tom didn't have a tribal switch" |
Point well taken Fishercat. I didn't explain my train of thought right. What I meant with the "she wasn't ready to face Danni in F2" was that she had planned her F4 to be Judd, Cindy and Rafe. She made the alternate plan of Lydia, Cindy and Rafe once Rafe and Danni made her distrust Judd. She didn't know Rafe was actually working against her. He admitted his strategy was getting rid of everyone that Steph could beat in F2. I agree they should've gotten rid of Danni at F7 but that was Rafe's doing.
My point was that you can't compare Stephenie's predicament with Tom's. Tom's biggest opponent after Ulong's demise was Coby who had already resigned himself from being outside the main 5 person alliance after 3 episodes and kept waiting for Gregg to act but did little himself. Ian's attempt at F4 was as pathetic as it was futile. Steph had a mole in her alliance. Her strategy, under the circumstances, was at least as good as Tom's. Character wise and in challenges, I never implied anything, Tom was very impressive in those regards but Stephenie at least was gracious in defeat.
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Fishercat 4168 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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12-12-05, 11:42 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Tom didn't have a tribal switch" |
Fair points all the way.
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Quiddity99 244 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
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12-12-05, 08:57 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-12-05 AT 08:58 PM (EST)I think the differences between Steph and Tom are as clear as night and day. First and foremost, Tom certainly was smart enough to know that as the leader of an alliance, you boot everyone whose not in your alliance before you start taking out your own. When it was 6-1 in Palau with Steph as the one, did Tom keep her around? Of course not! Its arguable that Steph could have beat even him! He knew when to play it smart and booted her long before she could have posed a threat down the stretch. Steph on the other hand kept Danni in the game TC after TC knowing full well that Danni was a huge threat, particularly as the underdog, the last remaining member of NuYaxha. Yet Danni was a 'cool chick' so Steph moronically kept her around the entire time. Second, Tom knew exactly when to cut ties with alliance members. Yes, they both booted a strong member 6th(Greg for Tom, Judd for Steph), but Tom did it smartly, deciding that between 2 strong guys against him, he'd keep his biggest ally in Ian and cut Greg loose. The strong threat that Steph booted was her biggest ally and final 2 goat. And a point I just can't let go, she did it while Danni was still in the game!! -_- (admittingly Danni was immune that week, but it should have never reached that point!) Tom played things perfectly, as the leader of the alliance he kept his 2 biggest allies in Ian and Katie and cut the others loose one by one. Admittingly, Ian's loose lips screwed things up near the end, but Ian probably still would have voted for Tom even if he lost that fire challenge against Jenn. Steph booted her biggest ally when there were still 4 other people left, Tom's plan was to bring his to the end. And finally, challenge wise there's just no contest. Challenge wise, Tom was the greatest survivor ever. Steph almost certainly has the worst record ever for someone that long in the game. 3-10 in tribal immunities and 1-11 in individuals? Pathetic!
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tikigirlie 112 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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12-12-05, 11:25 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
speaking of the vote, when do they make it official that it was 6-1 danni by putting the votes on cbs' TC board? also when do you think the video of the final TC are out?
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Fishercat 4168 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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12-13-05, 12:49 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
Very good point. I don't think it had as much to do with it, but I never even considered that before, and it could be true. 5 men on the jury, 4 of the 5 voted for Danni and the other guy was Steph's ally and, as he said, "one of the girls".Although, is she really one of the strongest woman player ever? Sure, she has the physique, but she was relatively pampered in terms of rewards, she complained/broke down once in a while, some people were clearly jealous of how much she ate, and she had (by her own fault or not) a hideous record in challenges. I think she is perceived as a strong woman player, but Danni and Cindy both won at least one physical challenge (solo) (Danni won the puzzle and the F3, Cindy car). Danni played Steph extremely well in the basketball-esque challenge. But yeah, I think BJ would have gotten more "respect" for making it to the F2 if he did, and that's not fair. Of course, looking in Survivor history, most guys who win used an agressive strategy, most girls used a passive one, with Chris and Danni meeting in the middle with a passive-aggressive strategy. Good job thinking of that point though, I wish I considered that, it's certainly a factor.
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esquire 1095 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest"
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12-13-05, 10:28 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
As I read these posts, I begin to wonder if Karen was really that forgetable.Tom started booting people off his allies after all of his non-allies were booted off. He kept Stephanie around and got rid of Coby first. Second, is the Greg boot, which is very comparable to the Judd boot. Greg and Judd are both big strong guys who thought they were part of the power alliance and positioned to go further in the game. In both cases they were blindsided and finished in 6th place with a 4-2 vote. In both cases, there was a non-alliance member that was kept over the bootee (Karen/Danni). However, Judd goes postal and Greg votes for Tom. Both Coby and Greg had close allies who should have been more upset with the unexpected loss of their partner. Tom kept both Janu and Jenn in the dark about the boot. Katy had little to do with the Greg boot and yet Greg and Jenn both vote against Katy and for Tom in the finals. My point is that Tom did many of the same things that Stephanie did and got away with it with few negative consequences.
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Fishercat 4168 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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12-13-05, 12:38 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
There is a notable difference between what he did to Coby and what Steph (perceivably) did to Jamie. IIRC (and my memory of Palau is fuzzy at best), Coby was scheming to make a difference, and Jamie was just paranoid.As for Gregg, once again, completely different scenario. With a Final 6 of Gregg, Jenn, Katie, Tom, Ian, and Caryn. Tom definitely had Ian, and Ian was friends with Katie. At the time, Caryn was the odd woman out, I feel she had no alliance at the time, if you want to make a comparison to Lydia, feel free. However, Tom was in a tenuous position. There was a connecting thread throughout the group of Tom >< Ian > Katie >< Jenn >< Gregg (I don't think Katie reciprocated the alliance with Ian, JMO, but if you like). Gregg and Tom were the two physical threats. Jenn, Katie, and Caryn had no threat and Ian was a step behind those two. Also, Gregg had connections and aspirations, he could have easily turned the group on Tom. Consider the potential of getting rid of Caryn at 6. That leaves Tom and Ian, Jenn and Gregg, and Katie as the swing vote. Katie will jump to her best scenario, and when Tom and Ian go off on their car trip, that leaves all three together. Not good. He had to betray Gregg for his own survival, or at least the best chance. Even if he wasn't much of a threat, I seem to remember Gregg and Jenn being extremely close, a very difficult pact to break, and I don't trust Katie to stay with me if I'm Tom. As for Steph, Judd wasn't a real threat. He was a vote in Steph's pocket for both the jury and in the game as long as she kept his trust. He had no other real connections. None with Danni, limited with Lydia, perhaps with Cindy but we didn't see anything to prove that, Rafe was much closer to the two girls he went F3 with. Steph was his only lifeline in this game. He had little choice. He was Ian, but without Katie. I cannot believe that if Judd won F3 immunity, he wouldn't have taken Steph. Simply put, the most treasonous activity of Judd towards the Nation of Steph was saying that he knows who is running the game. Steph could have easily kept him around and stayed as safe as she was. It wasn't like, if she booted out Lydia even and left a S/J/R/C/D F5, that she doesn't have a majority to at least the F4. Even at that point, she can't convince Rafe to boot Danni, just get rid of Cindy and either make a stand with Judd in a 2-2 deadlock or flip on him when it would make more sense for her to do so, to guarantee F3. There's a huge difference between Gregg and Judd. Also, there's a huge difference between Tom keeping Janu/Jenn in the dark and Steph keeping Judd/Cindy in the dark. Simply put, Janu and Jenn were not essential to Tom's overall plan (and Janu wasn't even in his alliance), Cindy and Judd were both in Steph's alliance and Judd was her Ian. Telling Janu about Coby is dangerous at that point because there are so many possibilities. In Jamie's case, everyone wanted him out that I doubt Judd could change minds. Katie had a lot to do with the Gregg boot, simply because she decided to yield to the majority rather than force a tie. A fine decision, but she had just as much to do with it as anyone else. Did they do the same things? Yeah. Did they do them in completely different contexts? Yes.
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ADKer 143 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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12-13-05, 11:38 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
It was a bit sadistic of Burnett to cast Steph a second time. Burnett, Probst and everyone involved in the game, including Steph, believed that there would be a large target on the backs of the returning players. Steph played a different game this time because she knew the odds was stacked against her. I am sure that Steph did far better than anyone expected ahead of time; When you are looking for a reason to boot someone, the fact that it is your second chance is as good a reason as any other. Steph very reasonably thought that she had to play a power game and she was probably right. Her mistake was keeping Danni because they bonded. Also, Lydia owed Steph for keeping her in the game and Lydia should have voted for Steph. I don't see anyway for Steph to have won the final vote though, against any opponent except Judd, and maybe not even then. Second place was as good as Steph could have done as a returning player.
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Fishercat 4168 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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12-13-05, 12:44 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
She certainly could not depend on Lydia's vote. Just think back to Jamie. IIRC, Jamie helped Lydia to stay in the game earlier (or so someone said...), and Lydia had no problem putting him out of the game. And really, if Steph cared that much for Lydia, she would have told her that she was going home like she was going home.Of course, keeping Danni was a pretty big error, but I think Danni would have beaten anyone, perhaps except Rafe, and Steph was blindsided a bit by that. Although she could have controlled that to an extent. She did well for herself, but she burned all her bridges on the journey to the F2 and had no way to get back the people's trust during the F2. She was pretty much screwed as soon as she screwed Judd in terms of the F4 vote, simply because the first 4 on the jury either were pro-Danni (Gary) or anti-Steph (BJ, Jamie, Judd). She could have done better. Just not by the way she played it.
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JohnMc 2679 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson"
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12-13-05, 12:55 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Difference between Tom and Stephanie" |
Let's look at the obvious difference - tribal breakdowns.Tom/Katie - 1 Ulong, 6 Koror
Danni/Steph - 5 new Yaxha (with 2 old Nakum), 2 new Nakum. Tom and Katie betrayed the same people; Danni and Steph did not. If Steph had survived Pulau to make F2, she likely would have won there. For Tom, the only person on the jury not from his tribe was Steph. So he and Katie both betrayed identical alliances. For Danni, she had BJ and Gary in her pocket from the get go as former tribe members. In addition, she benefitted from Steph's betrayals, and only had to sacrifice Rafe's vote to still come out winning 6-1. Tom and Steph had similar games, but their situations were quite different. 
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