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PLEASE NOTE: The Reality TV World Message Boards are filled with desperate
attention-seekers pretending to be one big happy PG/PG13-rated family. Don't
be fooled. Trying to get everyone to agree with you is like herding cats,
but intolerance for other viewpoints is NOT welcome and respect for other
posters IS required at all times. Jump in and play, and you'll soon find out
how easy it is to fit in, but save your drama for your mama. All members are
encouraged to read the
complete guidelines.
As entertainment critic Roger
Ebert once said, "If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue
with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way."
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"U.S. shreds auto plans"
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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
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03-30-09, 09:16 AM (EST)
 
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3. "RE: U.S. shreds auto plans" |
So you don't think that the fascist tactics of Barney Frank are strict enough?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuO4To7tnss&feature=player_embedded Change indeed. If he had his way law abiding citizens should have their name besmirched and destroyed because they committed the crime of having their contract honored. As for the cars, we've been down this road before, but I don't agree with your assessment. The companies with the "loan" have little incentive to change their ways and will never get better. That comes through bankruptcy reorganization. 
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. -Ronald Reagan
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Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-09, 09:36 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Bankruptcy" |
Exactly people are already not buying, so don't see how the bankruptcy won't happen. And at this point it should.
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-09, 06:05 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Bankruptcy" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-31-09 AT 06:06 PM (EST)>So what would you have GM and Chrysler do....go to the
>courts and do a Chapter 11? Yes. >Then who would by a car from them? Who has been buying cars from them without the bankruptcy? Anyone? Bueller? Nope, no one has. My parents used to be hard-core GM customers. The only cars we ever had when I was growing up were GM cars. Then I went to work for a first-tier auto supplier and saw what bad cars GM was making. Plus, I had a Chevy Citation, one of GM's worst cars ever. End result: no one in my family has bought a GM car since 1985. Ford, Honda, Toyota, yes. GM, no. The best example of GM's stupidity was DirecTV, which GM owned 100% for years. GM finally had to sell it to Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. in 2000. Why? Because DirecTV was valued by Wall Street HIGHER THAN the entire fair market value of GM's outstanding stock. That's right, ten years ago all of GM except for DirecTV was valued at less than zero. What's changed for the better at GM over the last 10 years? Nothing. So why not let GM go the way of the buggy whip? 
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HobbsofMI 16065 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-09, 06:21 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Bankruptcy" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-31-09 AT 06:28 PM (EST)You know what... then lets let them go and see what happens. Lets see how many suppliers go down with them, how many suppliers and service suppliers to all those companies go under, how many other car companies (domestic and foreign) stop making anything in the US, lets see how it all effects the middle class, lets see how the US economy does with no manufacturing base, lets see if Canada will take Michigan because there will be no one here, lets see Michigan's home values go threw the floor, etc. I've never owned a GM too... I never liked what they had. My first car I owned was a Mercury Tracer, company truck, Ford Contour, and now my 211,000 mile Ford Explore. Mrs. Hobbs had a used Honda Civic and now a Mercury Mariner Hybrd. No company can change models and bring them to market within a year and if you think you can, keep dreaming. Once gas hit $4 last summer the SUV market, their bread and butter, dropped off the map and now with credit frozen plus bankruptcy on the horizon... I guess it all done and we'll see what happens. So I say screw the banks and AIG too.... no more money for anyone and we'll see what happens. Edit: Also lets see 1,000,000 retires pensions go away and then go into the federal pension system. Lets see the largest private medical provider cut off all those people and how it effects the health care industry and medicare, etc. Then throw in all the Cities, Villages, Townships, Counties, and States take the hit and see if they can even pick-up the trash and put cops on the street.   
GO WINGS! 2008 Stanley Cup Champs!
sig JSlice and by IceCat, and bobble head by Tribephyl
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-09, 01:47 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Bankruptcy" |
Daddy Warbucks Obama will pressure Detroit Edison to provide the power for free. If they refuse, he'll nationalize the Fermi Nuclear Reactor and provide the power that way. Kwame Kilpatrick will be appointed as interim administrator of the power plant, and Obama will make sure that he has a tech person to delete his e-mails daily.
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newsomewayne 9353 desperate attention whore postings
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04-03-09, 11:45 AM (EST)
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42. "Sooner than you think..." |
Will the last person to leave Michigan please turn out the lights?Leaving Michigan Behind: Eight-year population exodus staggers state People are leaving Michigan at a staggering rate. About 109,000 more people left Michigan last year than moved in. It is one of the worst rates in the nation, quadruple the loss of just eight years ago. The state loses a family every 12 minutes, and the families who are leaving -- young, well-educated high-income earners -- are the people the state desperately needs to rebuild. Somebody want to do the math for me on how long until its just Hobbs and Ron Gettelfinger left? 
Fear the reaper.
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher
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samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-09, 01:30 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: U.S. shreds auto plans" |
Coco would be so proud.  I believe it is also acceptable to use a space before the first dot and then in between the second and third, like this . . . I prefer the spaced dots, as I think it just looks neater; however, much of my grammar snobbiness comes from legal assisting studies and employment. Ayak or Emydi may or may not agree.
And here people thought I got a little crazy about the proper use of apostropes.
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Quepea 313 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-09, 03:23 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: U.S. shreds auto plans" |
Worst president ever
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-09, 06:08 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Huh?" |
Not since 1804; the 12th Amendment blocked it.
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samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-09, 02:48 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: March's Numbers...." |
What exactly is your position on all of this? Not a smartass question here, I'm just trying to understand.Should the government continue the bailout and continue throwing money there to try to save one group at the expense of everyone else? At some point, something has to give. *smooches Agman*
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HobbsofMI 16065 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-09, 05:35 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: March's Numbers...." |
LAST EDITED ON 04-01-09 AT 06:01 PM (EST)A) It's not a bailout. I've seen the lien put on their property, they are loans. The banks was a bailout. B) It's no all the Union's fault. Wall Street, Management, Unions', the credit crunch, outsourcing, etc. are all at fault C) What manufacturing will the US have, in great quantity, will we have? Plus they can't turn out a new car/truck in a day... it takes year or two. D) Why do we, here in Michigan, see the forest and the rest of the US don't? But I'm to the point to where I just don't care because everyone just want to ignore what will happen because they don't think it will happen anywere else in the country and this only effect us. But those same people will defend to continue to hand the banks more and more money because if we don't then capitalism would end. Then all those people who had no care in the world and used our money like their own at a casino what will they do even though they had theirs but blew it all but that's the way they helped main street. I hate to say it but capitalism dead a long time ago and Greedism took over. Plus it feels like I'm just not appreciated or wanted here because I don't post about pudding or puppies as I've been told to stop posting political or things like this. I don't know... I try to bring a view from what is happening right here in Michigan and right now. I brought up the fact that housing here was sliding and was told it's only the rust belt it won't happen here just few years back. Michigan is a one state recession and the fundamentals of the rest of the US economy is strong. Well, last reports I saw all state now have housing values dropping and we are in a recession throughout the US but people still don't want to work together but only do it their way. I've asked what would you do to get us going in the right direction and all I've gotten was cut taxes and not to do what Obama's doing. Well, I don't have an MBA, only on economics college class a long time ago but I still want to hear from others. Yes, I may seem stubborn on certain things but that's because I see what is happening here and I see that Union's do still have their place in the US and we are not going to Socialist he!! if they stay around. To me it seems like it's all about greed. Wall Street, Management, Union's, and even main street. Everyone wanted the easy way to easy street and never thought about what they were doing was burning down their neighbors homes with the wind blowing in the direction of your own and then use the excuse they did it because everyone else was... got to keep up with the Jones. Money does not buy happiness but I use to think that it could but one day your here and the next day you can not be. After doing thing wrong for so long, I turned it around and did it right and now I'm paying the price. So now I sit on the sidelines like a vulture waiting for prices to hit rock bottom and scoop up someones dream for a steal to make up for it all. Thus continuing the cycle. As for the auto companies... just because they decided to do what Wall Street wanted and make 20% a quarter and say screw the future does not mean we don't need them. We don't make steel, clothes, furniture, toys, food, and a host of other products now. Our economy was base on an inflated stock market and what it was worth on paper. Companies move from country to county as they find cheaper and cheaper labor and taxes, leaving one destroyed country after another (Ireland, Poland, Mexico, etc.), because greed demands it but at what cost (yes, we still invent things but we don't build them anymore here)? The middle class and the American dream of doing better then your parents. Not every person is made for college so we need jobs for them too but people have said who cares and burn it all down so they can make a buck today. Well the rooster has come home to roost and the scandals and the cheats are just coming to the surface leaving the wake of people just trying to keep up. We all can't be nurses and with some many with out insurance who is that area going to grow? So if you want to stop at some point, go ahead, but I hope you have a ton of money saved somewhere because you're going to have the poor and the rich, the haves and the have nots, etc. If we don't save what is left of our manufacturing base there will be no middle class. So look a little further then your own back yard and see the fire coming. Edit: And one more thing... This is not only about the auto industry but what about Oil. Almost a year ago prices went threw the roof for what reason? Speculation and speculation alone. What did anyone do back then? Nothing but Drill Baby, Drill. Now we are back to $2 a gallon but hear we go again creeping up for the summer so if demand is so down why do I feel like the roller coaster is going to happen again (yes, I know summer blends add some cost but not $2 more a gallon)?
GO WINGS! 2008 Stanley Cup Champs!
sig JSlice and by IceCat, and bobble head by Tribephyl
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-09, 07:23 PM (EST)
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31. "Lengthy reply" |
>A) It's not a bailout. I've seen the lien put
>on their property, they are loans. The banks was
>a bailout. Most of the bank payments were loans as well, albeit unsecured loans. Citigroup and AIG were equity investments. That's why the change-of-control provisions in the AIG execs' contracts were activated: the feds now own over 50% of AIG. Warren Buffett can't be pleased that he has to compete with a nationalized competitor in the insurance arena. >B) It's not all the Union's fault. Wall Street, Management,
>Unions', the credit crunch, outsourcing, etc. are all at fault The biggest fault has to go to management, though. As I posted before, ten years ago, GM had a negative overall value apart from DirecTV because Wall Street people thought that GM would never be able to pay its massive retirement costs. Guess what? They were right THEN, and GM did nothing except incur more such costs, so they are still right NOW. That's not the fault of the UAW; it's the fault of GM management. Period. But the UAW workers are the ones who will have to take the hit. Sorry, but there's no way out. >C) What manufacturing will the US have, in great quantity? This has been a subject of massive discussion since the 1970s. Did it go over the heads of those in Michigan? >Plus they can't turn out a new
>car/truck in a day... it takes year or two. So what? Who wants their cars, new models or old? How long has it been since GM produced a bonafide hit? The Astro/Safari was a success -- but it just cannibalized the market for GM's full-sized vans. And a hit car? Even Chrysler has a hit car every now and then. But GM? >D) Why do we, here in Michigan, see the forest and
>the rest of the US don't? From here, I'd ask why those in Michigan can't see the forest for the trees. There hasn't been a real "Big Three" ever since Honda built its first plant in Marysville, Ohio. Then Toyota built in Georgetown, Kentucky. Why are the jobs in Warren, Michigan more important than the ones in Marysville or Georgetown? And the centerpiece of GM's turnaround back in the early 1980s was going to be Saturn, in Spring Hill, Tennessee. What ever happened to that? What happened was that GM couldn't promote Saturn because of the negative values of its Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick and Cadillac lines, and Saturn has all but disappeared from the face of the earth. Nice job, GM. But, of course, GM should be saved from the consequences of its mismangement because its workers dropped BIG BUCKS on getting Obama elected. Right? Well, no. >But I'm to the point to where I just don't care
>because everyone just want to ignore what will happen because
>they don't think it will happen anywere else in the
>country and this only effect us. Who thinks that? Bad companies will continue to die, even in boom times. Doesn't matter where they are. >But those same people will defend to continue
>to hand the banks more and more money because if
>we don't then capitalism would end. Not correct. The problem is that the banks' deposits have an explicit federal guarantee. Ever hear of the FDIC? So if the bank fails, the feds have to make the depositors whole, at least up to certain amounts. We learned from the failure of Lehman Brothers that a dead bank is worth a heck of a lot less than a live bank, because of the trading losses that result from bank death. As a result, the Fed and Treasury determined that it would cost less to pass the bailout and save the banks than to let the banks collapse and pay off depositors through the FDIC guarantees. Were they right? I don't know, but there was a reason for bailing out the banks that doesn't exist for the auto companies. The only way that it would make sense to bail out the auto companies (or, at least, GM and Chrysler) was if they would be able to reduce the huge underfunded pension liabilities that they have. But I have not seen any plan that shows either of them paying as much as one red cent into these underfundings. So, just as bailing out the banks was cheaper for the U.S. than letting them fail, letting GM and Chrysler fail is cheaper for the U.S. than bailing them out. Please ask if you don't understand this. >I hate to say it but capitalism dead a long
>time ago and Greedism took over. Did you ever see the movie Other People's Money from 1991? A lot of it is a pile of crap, but it has the best public meeting scene ever filmed, in which corporate CEO Andrew Jorgenson (Gregory Peck) goes up against corporate raider Larry "the Liquidator" Garfield (Danny DeVito). I'm going to violate the copyright laws and print both of their speeches in detail, because I think they address your arguments: Jorgenson: "I want you to look at him in all of his glory: "Larry the Liquidator." The entrepreneur of post-industrial America, playing God with other people's money. The robber barons of old at least left something tangible in their wake - a coal mine, a railroad, banks. This man leaves nothing. He creates nothing. He builds nothing. He runs nothing. And in his wake lies nothing but a blizzard of paper to cover the pain. Oh, if he said, "I know how to run your business better than you," that would be something worth talking about. But he's not saying that. He's saying, "I'm gonna kill you because at this particular moment in time, you're worth more dead than alive." Well, maybe that's true, but it is also true that one day this industry will turn. One day when the yen is weaker, the dollar is stronger, or when we finally begin to rebuild our roads, our bridges, the infrastructure of our country, demand will skyrocket. And when those things happen, we will still be here, stronger because of our ordeal, stronger because we have survived. And the price of our stock will make his offer pale by comparison. God save us if we vote to take his paltry few dollars and run. God save this country if that is truly the wave of the future. We will then have become a nation that makes nothing but hamburgers, creates nothing but lawyers, and sells nothing but tax shelters. And if we are at that point in this country, where we kill something because at the moment it's worth more dead than alive, well, take a look around. Look at your neighbor. Look at your neighbor. You won't kill him, will you? No. It's called murder, and it's illegal. Well, this, too, is murder, on a mass scale. Only on Wall Street, they call it maximizing shareholder value, and they call it legal. And they substitute dollar bills where a conscience should be. Damn it! A business is worth more than the price of its stock. It's the place where we earn our living, where we meet our friends, dream our dreams. It is, in every sense, the very fabric that binds our society together. So let us now, at this meeting, say to every Garfield in the land, here, we build things, we don't destroy them. Here, we care about more than the price of our stock. Here, we care about people. Thank you." Garfield: "Amen. And amen. And amen. You have to forgive me. I'm not familiar with the local custom. Where I come from, you always say "Amen" after you hear a prayer. Because that's what you just heard - a prayer. Where I come from, that particular prayer is called "The Prayer for the Dead." You just heard The Prayer for the Dead, my fellow stockholders, and you didn't say, "Amen." This company is dead. I didn't kill it. Don't blame me. It was dead when I got here. It's too late for prayers. For even if the prayers were answered, and a miracle occurred, and the yen did this, and the dollar did that, and the infrastructure did the other thing, we would still be dead. You know why? Fiber optics. New technologies. Obsolescence. We're dead alright. We're just not broke. And you know the surest way to go broke? Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes. Slow but sure. You know, at one time there must've been dozens of companies making buggy whips. And I'll bet the last company around was the one that made the best goddamn buggy whip you ever saw. Now how would you have liked to have been a stockholder in that company? You invested in a business and this business is dead. Let's have the intelligence, let's have the decency to sign the death certificate, collect the insurance, and invest in something with a future. "Ah, but we can't," goes the prayer. "We can't because we have responsibility, a responsibility to our employees, to our community. What will happen to them?" I got two words for that: Who cares? Care about them? Why? They didn't care about you. They sucked you dry. You have no responsibility to them. For the last ten years this company bled your money. Did this community ever say, "We know times are tough. We'll lower taxes, reduce water and sewer." Check it out: You're paying twice what you did ten years ago. And our devoted employees, who have taken no increases for the past three years, are still making twice what they made ten years ago; and our stock - one-sixth what it was ten years ago. Who cares? I'll tell you. Me. I'm not your best friend. I'm your only friend. I don't make anything? I'm making you money. And lest we forget, that's the only reason any of you became stockholders in the first place. You want to make money! You don't care if they manufacture wire and cable, fried chicken, or grow tangerines! You want to make money! I'm the only friend you've got. I'm making you money. Take the money. Invest it somewhere else. Maybe, maybe you'll get lucky and it'll be used productively. And if it is, you'll create new jobs and provide a service for the economy and, God forbid, even make a few bucks for yourselves. And if anybody asks, tell 'em ya gave at the plant. And by the way, it pleases me that I am called "Larry the Liquidator." You know why, fellow stockholders? Because at my funeral, you'll leave with a smile on your face and a few bucks in your pocket. Now that's a funeral worth having!" >Plus it feels like I'm just not appreciated
>or wanted here because I don't post about pudding or
>puppies as I've been told to stop posting political or
>things like this. Just in case anyone wonders, I have not asked Hobbs to stop posting political threads. I do not know who may have. On the other hand, I like posts about pudding and puppies. I even like posts about lard-filled fats. >I don't know... I try to bring a view from what
>is happening right here in Michigan and right now.
>I brought up the fact that housing here was sliding
>and was told it's only the rust belt it won't
>happen here just few years back. Michigan is a
>one state recession and the fundamentals of the rest of
>the US economy is strong. Michigan made the huge mistake of being dependent on one industry. It's been tanking ever since I lived there in the 1970s and 1980s. >Well, last reports I saw all state now have
>housing values dropping and we are in a recession throughout
>the US but people still don't want to work together
>but only do it their way. I've asked what would you do to get
>us going in the right direction and all I've gotten
>was cut taxes and not to do what Obama's doing. What does "work together" mean to you? As I posted back in December, I don't believe there is any way to save GM or Chrysler in their current form. So how could I "work together" to do what I don't believe can be done? Also, I don't know that I'd cut taxes any further, but I wouldn't raise them, as Obama wants to do.
>Well, I don't have an MBA, only on economics
>college class a long time ago but I still want
>to hear from others. OK, I won't post on this topic any longer, and we'll see how others respond. >Yes, I may seem stubborn on certain things but that's
>because I see what is happening here and I see
>that Union's do still have their place in the US
>and we are not going to Socialist he!! if they stay around. As a former member of the SEIU and the URW, I have a low opinion of unions. But the UAW didn't blow up GM or Chrysler. Their management did. >To me it seems like it's all about greed. To me, it seems like it's all about incompetence. That's where Michael Moore went off-base in Roger and Me. He focused on trying to make Roger Smith (longtime GM CEO) look greedy -- but he had more than enough facts there to show Roger's incompetence, only he didn't care about them. Ford had an incompetent CEO for several years: Bill Ford, whose family controls 40% of the company. Ford was in great shape when he took over from Alex Trotman. But in a term and a half as CEO, he almost killed it. So what did Ford do? Force Bill Ford to step down, that's what. On the other hand, Roger Smith and all of his successors have been incompetent, and they are like the Energizer Bunny: they keep going, and going, and going, and now it's too late. >Edit: And one more thing... This is not only about the
>auto industry but what about Oil. Almost a year
>ago prices went threw the roof for what reason?
>Speculation and speculation alone. I agree in part. Speculation was a huge factor. But so is political risk. A big part of last year's speculation cycle was that Iraq would mushroom out of control because the surge wouldn't work, and so Iraq would fail to fulfill its contracts. It was a reasonable bet, because Iraq HAD been failing to fulfill its contracts due to internal violence. But it was finally wrong last year, which caused the collapse in the oil price when Iraq didn't default. Now we see Hugo Chavez nationalizing the remaining oil facilities in private hands in Venezuela. There is a very real possibility that Cargill or other victims of Hugo's socialist assaults will sue Citgo for control of Citgo's refineries as compensation for the seizures. That uncertainty by itself adds to the cost of every gallon of gasoline. And judging by the instability in Venezuela right now, things there will continue to deteriorate. The loss of Venezuela's crude supply wouldn't be much of an issue right now. But any refining problems at Citgo would be. >What did anyone do back then? Nothing but Drill Baby, Drill. Naah, the Democrats wouldn't let most people drill, regardless of reserves.  Soylent Green: recycling America, one person at a time.
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samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-09, 07:40 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: Lengthy reply" |
Quick reply here only because your post is so short. I believe I have heard and read that Saturn is being phased out by 2012. We've had a dealership already close here. *smooches Agman*
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Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-09, 07:45 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: Lengthy reply" |
Really? Weird. I've been seeing commercials about all the cool cars they have and are going strong.
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Max Headroom 10069 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-09, 08:31 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: Lengthy reply" |
Saturn has been reviewed by GM as part of their plan to demonstrate viability to the government:"Saturn review complete; sale or spin-off possible; if not, phase out the brand at the end of current product lifecycle" http://tinyurl.com/djbhmq I've also seen rumors that Saturn will be closing in 2011 or 2012 if a spinoff is not done. 
Headbanger by IceCat, siggie by agman
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-09, 09:12 AM (EST)
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36. "RE: Lengthy reply" |
LAST EDITED ON 04-02-09 AT 09:13 AM (EST)Just to update on Saturn: GM closed down the Spring Hill plant for almost a year in 2007 to retool it so that it could produce metal-framed vehicles, and it has not been a Saturn plant since then. I believe it's the primary plant being used for the Chevy Traverse crossover vehicle. Saturn was moved to Doraville, GA and Wilmington, DE -- without any of the work-rules changes that were supposed to make Saturn less flawed than the average GM vehicle. Here is a 2005 post on the decline of Saturn at Spring Hill, prior to the move, from a plant worker: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3526.html As one who watched Roger Smith drive the first Saturn through "Inspiration Point", I'd like to offer up my take on the demise of the "Saturn Philosophy" In a small way, we were a victim of our own success. Those first couple years' cars were built with two crews with a third planned as the plant ramped up to it's 700 cars/shift line speed. Not many folks know that Saturn team members actually did the interview process and made hire/don't hire decisions. Talk about empowerment! All of a sudden it was deemed to fill out the third shift in hopes of increasing the line speed and productivity- we had all made the decision to work six 10-hour days to satisfy demand for the vehicle, and the hope was to reduce overtime and keep building quality vehicles. The A and B crews were of the opinion that all qualified candidates from the hiring pool of laid-off UAW workers from around the country had been selected, and that Saturn should look to hiring local residents to fill the vacancies- great PR, by the way. Shot down by the UAW, of course, and we were directed to REVISIT the applications that were originally rejected... lowering of the bar part one. Well, the first group of hires were from the shut-down (I wonder why) Doraville, GA assembly plant, and the "Tear down the factory before I'll change MY hard-won work rules" folks in Wilmington, DE. No way these "auto-building" experts were going to buy into Saturn's philosophy... It took exactly two weeks before the first TV antenna was put up on the roof above the maintenance team center; some of us jokingly referred to that team center as the "South Lounge"... lower the bar part two. Next, we have the strike at the GM Flint die shop plant in the late 90s. Not many folks know of the maintenance walk-out that occurred at Saturn during the two-week model changeover during this time. UAW maintenance workers had fought against outsourcing work during the twice-yearly shutdowns to the point where EVERY possible outsourcing contract be approved by the maintenance membership before being let out to an outside contractor. When it came time to do the shutdown work that summer, the UAW membership showed where their loyalty was placed by not showing up on the job. Not long afterwards, a work rule was enacted that prevented the 15 hr./day, 7-day workweeks that were the norm for skilled tradesmen- and you didn't even have to punch a clock to verify your presence in the plant. Hours were cut back to a measly 12 hours a day... geesh, how's a person to survive? Put a hit on a UAW member's wallet and they hit back. The line speed was eventually lowered to 630/shift as equipment regularly broke down, and the repair workforce moved further and further from preventive to reactive maintenance. "Fix it on the weekend- on overtime". Lowering the bar part three Lastly, those denizens of closed GM plants started with the leaflet passing, hardball rhetoric (we'll show 'em) and sooned ascended into Local 1853's leadership. The resultant strike vote was probably most damaging to Saturn than all of the above- can't tell ya' how many times I was asked to explain to John Q. Public why workers with a cooperative stake in the company would want to go on strike- after all, when sales got slow the corporation kept its word and did not lay off employee-one. Couldn't give them an honest answer. IMO, that was when the "bar" was melted down into sheet metal to produce another so-so GM vehicle. I just recently found this forum and so I'm not familiar with all the conversations here, but I did read one that lamented the public not buying into the Saturn concept. Nothing could be further from the truth. As long as car buying America felt that the workers were doing all they could to build a world-class car they were willing to overlook build issues. No need to tout Saturn Corporation's commitment to the team concept; this was a bottom driven enterprise from day one and I saw many $MILLIONS spent to give the experiment every chance to succeed. I never understood all the whining from those who had the power to change things for the better- the workforce... but didn't. I understand that now "Saturns" are being built in that same Doraville plant. I'd say it was appropriate. Y'all can post or PM me for the skinny on the good and bad from those bygone years. But, those work-rule battles weren't just the fault of the UAW. Management chose to give in on these issues. Me, I would have taken the strikes. If you get weaker during boom times, you fold during weak times ... as GM is now learning.
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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04-10-09, 12:36 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Look who wants to protect a GM plant" |
LAST EDITED ON 04-10-09 AT 12:37 PM (EST)Just goes to show that politicians (all of them, not just one side or the other) are still only worried about their own. Also shows that the Republicans learned little from their loss of power. In truth, Corker is probably right that Spring Hill would stay open in a fair selction by GM. But if GM goes down the tubes, that also makes Spring Hill desirable to other manufacturers, as it is GM's most versatile plant. So why is he shooting his mouth off? Soylent Green: recycling America, one person at a time.
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HobbsofMI 16065 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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04-02-09, 02:10 PM (EST)
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38. "Lengthy reply reply" |
LAST EDITED ON 04-02-09 AT 04:33 PM (EST)>>A) It's not a bailout. I've seen the lien put
>>on their property, they are loans. The banks was
>>a bailout.
>
>Most of the bank payments were
>loans as well, albeit unsecured
>loans. Citigroup and AIG
>were equity investments. That's
>why the change-of-control provisions in
>the AIG execs' contracts were
>activated: the feds now own
>over 50% of AIG.
>Warren Buffett can't be pleased
>that he has to compete
>with a nationalized competitor in
>the insurance arena. Well, you get it but the rest of the US still say bailout. >
>>B) It's not all the Union's fault. Wall Street, Management,
>>Unions', the credit crunch, outsourcing, etc. are all at fault
>
>The biggest fault has to go
>to management, though. As
>I posted before, ten years
>ago, GM had a negative
>overall value apart from DirecTV
>because Wall Street people thought
>that GM would never be
>able to pay its massive
>retirement costs. Guess what?
> They were right THEN,
>and GM did nothing except
>incur more such costs, so
>they are still right NOW. Yes, GM sold of Hughes, EDS, Delphi, GM defense, etc. but most of that was on pressure from Wall Street to increase there profits and stock price. Those Wall Street people thought if GM just made cars then they would keep growing and thus pay for the retirees. These must be the same people who thought that US housing would never go down and keep rising at 10%. Guess what? They were wrong but the point is that Wall Street pressure have and well push all companies around in the name of more profits and higher stock value. If they don't everyone pulls out and then they break up the company until it's making 20% per quarter. Plus, the last UAW contracts takes all retirement cost off of GM, Ford and Chrysler but with a big one time buy in and in 2010. Then the VEBA is run by the UAW and they became the largest single private insurer in the US. Yes, it's about 10 years late but up until 2007 GM was turning a profit.
>
>
>That's not the fault of the
>UAW; it's the fault of
>GM management. Period.
>But the UAW workers are
>the ones who will have
>to take the hit.
>Sorry, but there's no way
>out. No, the bond holder should also take a hit along with management.
>
>>C) What manufacturing will the US have, in great quantity?
>
>This has been a subject of
>massive discussion since the 1970s.
> Did it go over
>the heads of those in
>Michigan? No, Michigan's been trying to diversify for years and there have been no massive discussion on what is happening to manufacturing here in the US. Where was these discussions when the textiles, furniture, stoves, fridges, electronics, computers, etc. where going overseas? There was none because these companies were cutting cost and thus making more profit and thus their stock prices were going up. Hummm... now who was putting the pressure on them to do that? Wall Street?
>
>>Plus they can't turn out a new
>>car/truck in a day... it takes year or two.
>
>So what? Who wants their
>cars, new models or old?
> How long has it
>been since GM produced a
>bonafide hit? The Astro/Safari
>was a success -- but
>it just cannibalized the market
>for GM's full-sized vans.
>And a hit car?
>Even Chrysler has a hit
>car every now and then.
> But GM? I'm not GM fan of their products but there have been some hits over the years but just none that I personally liked. The new Malibu, G6, and Saturn VEU are considered hits plus the Volt (if the price comes down) could be. But GM is always a year or two late with things: HHR vs. P.T. Cruiser, New Cameo vs. Charger/Mustang, Astro vs. Caravan, so on and so on mostly due to their size and infrastructure.
>
>>D) Why do we, here in Michigan, see the forest and
>>the rest of the US don't?
>
>From here, I'd ask why those
>in Michigan can't see the
>forest for the trees.
>There hasn't been a real
>"Big Three" ever since Honda
>built its first plant in
>Marysville, Ohio. Then Toyota
>built in Georgetown, Kentucky.
>Why are the jobs in
>Warren, Michigan more important than
>the ones in Marysville or
>Georgetown?
>
>And the centerpiece of GM's turnaround
>back in the early 1980s
>was going to be Saturn,
>in Spring Hill, Tennessee.
>What ever happened to that?
> What happened was that
>GM couldn't promote Saturn because
>of the negative values of
>its Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick and
>Cadillac lines, and Saturn has
>all but disappeared from the
>face of the earth.
>Nice job, GM.
>
>But, of course, GM should be
>saved from the consequences of
>its mismangement because its workers
>dropped BIG BUCKS on getting
>Obama elected. Right?
>
>Well, no. I've never said that management does not need to change and GM should keep doing the sameo sameo. They need to change and they needed to start years ago but they were still making a profit in 2006 so there was no pressure to change because everyone (management, UAW, and Wall Street) was thinking short term profits/stock price and not long term health. So should we also apply the same standards to the banks and AIG and save them from their own mismanagement? Not all these jobs can be or should be saved but the industry/manufacturing need to be saved or we will not manufacture anything here inside of the USA and have no middle class. Should jobs like these make $30 an hour... nope but they should make more than $1 an hour or minimum wage. If you disagree then what should they make? That's what THAT ONE was suppose to do...  It does not matter who is leading this country, it needs to be saved.
>
>>But I'm to the point to where I just don't care
>>because everyone just want to ignore what will happen because
>>they don't think it will happen anywere else in the
>>country and this only effect us.
>
>Who thinks that? Bad companies
>will continue to die, even
>in boom times. Doesn't
>matter where they are. Yes, bad companies will continue to die but the rest of the country thinks what happens in the Rust Belt will stay in the Rust Belt and never effect them. My point is if these jobs/manufacturing dies people don't realize the consequences for the rest of the US.
>
>>But those same people will defend to continue
>>to hand the banks more and more money because if
>>we don't then capitalism would end.
>
>Not correct. The problem is
>that the banks' deposits have
>an explicit federal guarantee.
>Ever hear of the FDIC?
> So if the bank
>fails, the feds have to
>make the depositors whole, at
>least up to certain amounts.
> We learned from the
>failure of Lehman Brothers that
>a dead bank is worth
>a heck of a lot
>less than a live bank,
>because of the trading losses
>that result from bank death.
> As a result, the
>Fed and Treasury determined that
>it would cost less to
>pass the bailout and save
>the banks than to let
>the banks collapse and pay
>off depositors through the FDIC
>guarantees. Yes, I've heard of the FDIC and CUDIC. The FDIC and CUDIC only protects $250K, anything beyond that you are SOL. So why should we save those who's deposits are over $250K vs. workers who if these company fail will go into the federal pension system and Medicare/Medicaid, unemployment, and a host of other federal programs? So how much will that cost vs. let them disappear?
>
>Were they right? I don't
>know, but there was a
>reason for bailing out the
>banks that doesn't exist for
>the auto companies. The
>only way that it would
>make sense to bail out
>the auto companies (or, at
>least, GM and Chrysler) was
>if they would be able
>to reduce the huge underfunded
>pension liabilities that they have.
> But I have not
>seen any plan that shows
>either of them paying as
>much as one red cent
>into these underfundings. So,
>just as bailing out the
>banks was cheaper for the
>U.S. than letting them fail,
>letting GM and Chrysler fail
>is cheaper for the U.S.
>than bailing them out. The underfunding was taken care of in the new contract in 2010. Then they are off the books and GM and Chrysler would have a better chance to make it thus why these were called "Bridge Loans" so they can get to that point.
>
>Please ask if you don't understand
>this.
>
>>I hate to say it but capitalism dead a long
>>time ago and Greedism took over.
>
>Did you ever see the movie
>Other People's Money from 1991?
> A lot of it
>is a pile of crap,
>but it has the best
>public meeting scene ever filmed,
>in which corporate CEO Andrew
>Jorgenson (Gregory Peck) goes up
>against corporate raider Larry "the
>Liquidator" Garfield (Danny DeVito).
>I'm going to violate the
>copyright laws and print both
>of their speeches in detail,
>because I think they address
>your arguments:
>
>Jorgenson: "I want you to look
>at him in all of
>his glory: "Larry the Liquidator."
>The entrepreneur of post-industrial America,
>playing God with other people's
>money. The robber barons of
>old at least left something
>tangible in their wake -
>a coal mine, a railroad,
>banks. This man leaves nothing.
>He creates nothing. He builds
>nothing. He runs nothing. And
>in his wake lies nothing
>but a blizzard of paper
>to cover the pain. Oh,
>if he said, "I know
>how to run your business
>better than you," that would
>be something worth talking about.
>But he's not saying that.
>He's saying, "I'm gonna kill
>you because at this particular
>moment in time, you're worth
>more dead than alive." Well,
>maybe that's true, but it
>is also true that one
>day this industry will turn.
>One day when the yen
>is weaker, the dollar is
>stronger, or when we finally
>begin to rebuild our roads,
>our bridges, the infrastructure of
>our country, demand will skyrocket.
>And when those things happen,
>we will still be here,
>stronger because of our ordeal,
>stronger because we have survived.
>And the price of our
>stock will make his offer
>pale by comparison. God save
>us if we vote to
>take his paltry few dollars
>and run. God save this
>country if that is truly
>the wave of the future.
>We will then have become
>a nation that makes nothing
>but hamburgers, creates nothing but
>lawyers, and sells nothing but
>tax shelters. And if we
>are at that point in
>this country, where we kill
>something because at the moment
>it's worth more dead than
>alive, well, take a look
>around. Look at your neighbor.
>Look at your neighbor. You
>won't kill him, will you?
>No. It's called murder, and
>it's illegal. Well, this, too,
>is murder, on a mass
>scale. Only on Wall Street,
>they call it maximizing shareholder
>value, and they call it
>legal. And they substitute dollar
>bills where a conscience should
>be. Damn it! A business
>is worth more than the
>price of its stock. It's
>the place where we earn
>our living, where we meet
>our friends, dream our dreams.
>It is, in every sense,
>the very fabric that binds
>our society together. So let
>us now, at this meeting,
>say to every Garfield in
>the land, here, we build
>things, we don't destroy them.
>Here, we care about more
>than the price of our
>stock. Here, we care about
>people. Thank you."
>
>Garfield: "Amen. And amen. And amen.
>You have to forgive me.
>I'm not familiar with the
>local custom. Where I come
>from, you always say "Amen"
>after you hear a prayer.
>Because that's what you just
>heard - a prayer. Where
>I come from, that particular
>prayer is called "The Prayer
>for the Dead." You just
>heard The Prayer for the
>Dead, my fellow stockholders, and
>you didn't say, "Amen." This
>company is dead. I didn't
>kill it. Don't blame me.
>It was dead when I
>got here. It's too late
>for prayers. For even if
>the prayers were answered, and
>a miracle occurred, and the
>yen did this, and the
>dollar did that, and the
>infrastructure did the other thing,
>we would still be dead.
>You know why? Fiber optics.
>New technologies. Obsolescence. We're dead
>alright. We're just not broke.
>And you know the surest
>way to go broke? Keep
>getting an increasing share of
>a shrinking market. Down the
>tubes. Slow but sure. You
>know, at one time there
>must've been dozens of companies
>making buggy whips. And I'll
>bet the last company around
>was the one that made
>the best goddamn buggy whip
>you ever saw. Now how
>would you have liked to
>have been a stockholder in
>that company? You invested in
>a business and this business
>is dead. Let's have the
>intelligence, let's have the decency
>to sign the death certificate,
>collect the insurance, and invest
>in something with a future.
>"Ah, but we can't," goes
>the prayer. "We can't because
>we have responsibility, a responsibility
>to our employees, to our
>community. What will happen to
>them?" I got two words
>for that: Who cares? Care
>about them? Why? They didn't
>care about you. They sucked
>you dry. You have no
>responsibility to them. For the
>last ten years this company
>bled your money. Did this
>community ever say, "We know
>times are tough. We'll lower
>taxes, reduce water and sewer."
>Check it out: You're paying
>twice what you did ten
>years ago. And our devoted
>employees, who have taken no
>increases for the past three
>years, are still making twice
>what they made ten years
>ago; and our stock -
>one-sixth what it was ten
>years ago. Who cares? I'll
>tell you. Me. I'm not
>your best friend. I'm your
>only friend. I don't make
>anything? I'm making you money.
>And lest we forget, that's
>the only reason any of
>you became stockholders in the
>first place. You want to
>make money! You don't care
>if they manufacture wire and
>cable, fried chicken, or grow
>tangerines! You want to make
>money! I'm the only friend
>you've got. I'm making you
>money. Take the money. Invest
>it somewhere else. Maybe, maybe
>you'll get lucky and it'll
>be used productively. And if
>it is, you'll create new
>jobs and provide a service
>for the economy and, God
>forbid, even make a few
>bucks for yourselves. And if
>anybody asks, tell 'em ya
>gave at the plant. And
>by the way, it pleases
>me that I am called
>"Larry the Liquidator." You know
>why, fellow stockholders? Because at
>my funeral, you'll leave with
>a smile on your face
>and a few bucks in
>your pocket. Now that's a
>funeral worth having!" Michel Douglass "Greed is good", but making money at 8% a year is not acceptable any more. Now if they are not making 20% a quarter, burn it down because they are not making enough money.
>
>
>>I don't know... I try to bring a view from what
>>is happening right here in Michigan and right now.
>>I brought up the fact that housing here was sliding
>>and was told it's only the rust belt it won't
>>happen here just few years back. Michigan is a
>>one state recession and the fundamentals of the rest of
>>the US economy is strong.
>
>Michigan made the huge mistake of
>being dependent on one industry.
> It's been tanking ever
>since I lived there in
>the 1970s and 1980s. Many in Michigan have tried to diversify for a long time. We had appliance manufacturer and Steel Case on the West side of the state, tried to lure Tech firms, Bio firms, Chemical firms, etc. We lost Pizer and most of Dow Chemical, Maytag/Whirlpool, etc. to cheaper places in the world to make these product or do the research. Automation Alley has brought in many small firms here in Oakland County. Yes, the City of Detroit is a mess that we all wish would stop but most people have seen what is needed but it just has not happen for a host of reason under Rep and Dem control all over the state, countries, cities, villages, and townships. Edit: Bond rating firms give Oakland Co. high ratings
>
>>Well, last reports I saw all state now have
>>housing values dropping and we are in a recession throughout
>>the US but people still don't want to work together
>>but only do it their way. I've asked what would you do to get
>>us going in the right direction and all I've gotten
>>was cut taxes and not to do what Obama's doing.
>
>What does "work together" mean to
>you? As I posted
>back in December, I don't
>believe there is any way
>to save GM or Chrysler
>in their current form.
>So how could I "work
>together" to do what I
>don't believe can be done?
>
I'm not saying they need to stay in their current form... far from it. They all need to change: Wall Street, Management, UAW, and Main Street.
>
>Also, I don't know that I'd
>cut taxes any further, but
>I wouldn't raise them, as
>Obama wants to do.
>
>>Well, I don't have an MBA, only on economics
>>college class a long time ago but I still want
>>to hear from others.
>
>OK, I won't post on this
>topic any longer, and we'll
>see how others respond.
>
>>Yes, I may seem stubborn on certain things but that's
>>because I see what is happening here and I see
>>that Union's do still have their place in the US
>>and we are not going to Socialist he!! if they stay around.
>
>As a former member of the
>SEIU and the URW, I
>have a low opinion of
>unions. But the UAW
>didn't blow up GM or
>Chrysler. Their management did.
>
That I can agree with but it seems like all anyone does, especially those nice Southern Senators, do is say it's all the UAW's fault.
>
>>To me it seems like it's all about greed.
>
>To me, it seems like it's
>all about incompetence. That's
>where Michael Moore went off-base
>in Roger and Me.
>He focused on trying to
>make Roger Smith (longtime GM
>CEO) look greedy -- but
>he had more than enough
>facts there to show Roger's
>incompetence, only he didn't care
>about them.
>
>Ford had an incompetent CEO for
>several years: Bill Ford, whose
>family controls 40% of the
>company. Ford was in
>great shape when he took
>over from Alex Trotman.
>But in a term and
>a half as CEO, he
>almost killed it. So
>what did Ford do?
>Force Bill Ford to step
>down, that's what. On
>the other hand, Roger Smith
>and all of his successors
>have been incompetent, and they
>are like the Energizer Bunny:
>they keep going, and going,
>and going, and now it's
>too late.
>
Greed leads to a form of incompetent in my book. Again, they think short term instead of thinking of being a ships captain, expect another ship to ship collusion with in day, and looking out for those aboard and thinking long term.
>>Edit: And one more thing... This is not only about the
>>auto industry but what about Oil. Almost a year
>>ago prices went threw the roof for what reason?
>>Speculation and speculation alone.
>
>I agree in part. Speculation
>was a huge factor.
>But so is political risk.
> A big part of
>last year's speculation cycle was
>that Iraq would mushroom out
>of control because the surge
>wouldn't work, and so Iraq
>would fail to fulfill its
>contracts. It was a
>reasonable bet, because Iraq HAD
>been failing to fulfill its
>contracts due to internal violence.
> But it was finally
>wrong last year, which caused
>the collapse in the oil
>price when Iraq didn't default.
>
>
>Now we see Hugo Chavez nationalizing
>the remaining oil facilities in
>private hands in Venezuela.
>There is a very real
>possibility that Cargill or other
>victims of Hugo's socialist assaults
>will sue Citgo for control
>of Citgo's refineries as compensation
>for the seizures. That
>uncertainty by itself adds to
>the cost of every gallon
>of gasoline. And judging
>by the instability in Venezuela
>right now, things there will
>continue to deteriorate. The
>loss of Venezuela's crude supply
>wouldn't be much of an
>issue right now. But
>any refining problems at Citgo
>would be.
>
>>What did anyone do back then? Nothing but Drill Baby, Drill.
>
>Naah, the Democrats wouldn't let most
>people drill, regardless of reserves.
>
>
> Soylent Green: recycling
>America, one person at a
>time.
GO WINGS! 2008 Stanley Cup Champs!
sig JSlice and by IceCat, and bobble head by Tribephyl
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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04-13-09, 08:34 PM (EST)
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58. "RE: Lengthy reply" |
>C) What manufacturing will the US have, in great quantity?This has been a subject of massive discussion since the 1970s. Did it go over the heads of those in Michigan? This is a deeper question than it might first appear. Just what do we mean by a nation having manufacturing capability in great quantity? One lesson the Japanese learned early is to globalize their manufacturing base, largely in Asia as well as in the U.S. One reason that they can weather the transient global financial meltdown is that they are diversified and spread throughout a large number of countries where economic conditions remain in their business favor. The U.S. automakers are still in the Detroit frame of mind, and as long as they remain so, they'll perform as well as the Lions.
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samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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04-02-09, 09:42 AM (EST)
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37. "RE: March's Numbers...." |
*sigh*I asked a simple question. And I asked you specificially because I was trying to understand your position. I don't think I've ever said you shouldn't post here, and I fairly certain I've never said you shouldn't post political threads here. It is no secret that I am not a fan of the Union. I don't blame all of this on the UAW, but I don't think they are blameless, and I agree with AyaK in that the UAW workers will have to take some of the hit here. Regarding the bailout vs. loan, I'm fine calling it a loan, but it is, IMO, some form of a bailout because the company is failing, and this is so far keeping them from failing completely. I didn't like it when they got the initial "loan," but I was one who believed they did need and should get it - simply because the ripple effect. As I look at it again, I feel more, "No, let them fail this time." They haven't shown me any reason to help them out again. I understand there will still be a ripple effect. But at what point do we stop? I don't know what all of the answers are. But this is one area where I think we need a different approach. Regarding the rich/poor, the haves/the have nots, frankly I worry about me. I've been poor. I've had nothing. I will never be rich, and there will always be things I want. But, I didn't get to where I am now waiting for someone to give up theirs or expecting them to. And I don't think anyone else should. *smooches Agman*
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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04-10-09, 12:43 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Obama's warranty repair plan?" |
Unlike Hobbes, I saw Galaxy Quest.
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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04-10-09, 09:57 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Obama's warranty repair plan?" |
...and I loved it. Sounds like our political differences carry over into SF movies.
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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04-13-09, 06:39 PM (EST)
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57. "RE: Obama's warranty repair plan?" |
Under "Y" for "Yodel".
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p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
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