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"Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me"
bacon 2824 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-08, 09:10 PM (EST)
 
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"Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
I finally got to take time out of a busy work schedule to sit down in a theatre and watch "Religulous", Bill Maher's documentary which dares to ask questions about all religions that are not normally asked.First, some background on my upbringing and why I chose to watch this movie. I was raised in a small town in WV. By small I mean there were roughly 300 people living in it. It was probably about a mile long. It had one place to do grocery shopping, one place to pump your gas at, and one mechanic in town. However, it had roughly seven churches. No joke. In fact, it had two churches that were referred to as The Church of Christ. I went to one of those for approximately 20 years(I'm now 29, for the record). If you don't know much about that church it's basic belief is that the Bible is 100% true. Stories contained within(Noah and the Ark, Moses and the Parting of the Seas, Jonah in the fish) are not meant to be taken as lessons only, they are, in fact, completely true stories that actually happened. I can remember when I was roughly 10 years old I began to question the logic of this church, must to the dismay of my parents. I even had the preacher visit my house to discuss why I hadn't been baptized(although that didn't occur until I was about 17). Obviously, all kids hate going to church for reasons as simple as it's boring, and it forces you to get up early on Sundays. However, my third reason was more alarming to everyone else. I thought it all made little to no sense. When asked what I believed, I answered in the only way I knew how: "I don't know!". Which bring us to Bill Maher's movie "Religulous". Maher, like myself, was brought up in a christian church. But much like myself, the whole idea that a bunch of people were getting all their answers from a human-penned book didn't sit well with him. Rational people in churches all around the world(not just Christian ones) are acting irrational when it comes to their faith. Hell, it's not even considered proper to discuss religion with the majority of people, because you may just offend their weird(in my opinion) ideas. Bill Maher also goes on to say, just like I did, that he "Doesn't know" the answers, either. The problem is that too many people think THEY DO have the answers. Understandably, a lot of people on here probably dislike Maher. He isn't someone who appeals to everyone. Some may even hate him. And I will agree that some of the movie isn't fair. He often interrupts people when they are stating the reasons for their views, something that occasionally annoyed me. But, in his defense, us non-believers were forced to listen to Preachers for years. Talking back to them was considered godless and wrong. Now that we're grown-up it's hard not to sling it all right back at them. That being said, I would highly recommend the movie to anyone who is a fan of Maher's stand-up, or those that had a similar upbringing to what I did. For everyone else, and this probably doesn't have to be said, you should probably stay away. However, I would be interested to hear, and hopefully in logical terms, why someone should believe a specific religion. I really am interested in why someone would have an opposite reaction to religion than I had. Why is Christianity more believable than being a Muslim, or vise versa? Why is Scientology not believable compared to the other two I just mentioned? Standing back from your own biases, why does one religion sound more sane than another?
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Starshine 5033 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-08, 05:11 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
OK I am a God Botherer of the Christian persuasion, I do not believe that all of the Old Testament can be taken literally, and I have some issues with St.Paul.Having put my cards on the table I have to agree that no religion makes sense. Every religion (except Buddhism) believes in God (or Gods) for whom there is no empirical proof. The only proof for any religion is in the souls of believers, I have felt the Love of Christ in my soul, so I know that my way is the right way, however I am sure that anyone from any other belief would be able to say a similar thing. IMNSHO God gave us the ability to question, and anyone who doesn't question and seek to better understand their faith and what God wants from them is missing a point. However when trying to analyse one has to understand that in the case of religion because the "proof" is internal to individuals one cannot apply the same logical standards in the analysis.  J Slice what a cool lady
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cqvenus 9765 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-08, 12:33 PM (EST)
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5. "non-believer" |
i'm a non-believer. it's easier for me. it makes more sense to me. i believe that before i was born, i did not exist. and when i'm dead, i will again not exist. it makes the most sense to me.i was raised lazy catholic. that means my parents brought us to church whenever they got on church kicks, or during CCD season they'd send us ourselves. i think i went alone (w/ my cousin) for a whole year b/c attendance at church was allegedly mandatory to make confirmation. i was confirmed at age 13, IMO far too young to appreciate and understand what you're agreeing to. if i were, say 17, i never would've done it. in fact, my CCD teacher that year accepted "my parents are making me" as my explanation for "why do you seek confirmation?" anyway, it offends me when people say things like "all the love in the world is rooted in jesus christ." i believe that if one studies religious history, s/he will find that religion has existed primarily for the purpose of controlling people, especially when kings and such claim to be named by god as rulers. give me a break. i also have problems with, as you said, a book penned by humans supposedly being from god. i REALLY have problems with people who believe that the bible is friggin literal. there is no scientific evidence, for example, that the earth ever flooded as named in the ark story. it's terribly difficult to reconcile. anyway, i believe religion does have some positive aspects. well, it CAN, i should say. but primarily, religion has caused more suffering than good, IMO. i think if everyone just believed they should be good because we are all human beings and we should do good because putting good into the world can only be good for everyone, the world would be a better place. as for me, i don't need jesus or god or any religion to tell me how to be a good person. i just try not to be a shitty person because i believe people should treat others how they would wish to be treated. i don't intend to raise my children by threatening them with hell or eternal damnation or whatever else. i am just going to teach them that being good feels good, and eventually good comes back to you. cq
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Starshine 5033 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-08, 03:44 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: non-believer" |
I would like to change
religion has existed primarily for the purpose of controlling people
to religion has been used primarily for the purpose of controlling people
Apart from that cannot argue with you (disagree maybe  )
J Slice what a cool lady
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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-08, 07:28 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: non-believer" |
Hope you don’t mind if I suggest your post actually reveals a belief in God (at least, god in my view).anyway, it offends me when people say things like "all the love in the world is rooted in jesus christ." When you say “offends” you’re insinuating that they violated some Moral Law. You’re saying that their words were wrong, and they should have known that. I suppose you could assume they genuinely believed it to be right…but you’re still judging it as wrong, again showing the scale of right and wrong you view the world by. This Moral Law is one of the proofs of god imo. i believe that if one studies religious history, s/he will find that religion has existed primarily for the purpose of controlling people, especially when kings and such claim to be named by god as rulers. give me a break. Interestingly, when I studied this history it did in fact shake my belief system. I was much more interested in God of the Bible before reading A History of God. The conclusion was the 1. Some form of god/religion has always existed and 2. The various forms of religion were adapted to whatever met the needs of the people—what “worked”. I agree with the post above as to the 'use' of religion…the but god-concept has always been. anyway, i believe religion does have some positive aspects. well, it CAN, i should say. but primarily, religion has caused more suffering than good, IMO. Wow do I disagree with that. I think the suffering gets into headlines and history books more often. Every day there are millions of godly actions around the world—and I don’t mean just by Christians either. i think if everyone just believed they should be good because we are all human beings and we should do good because putting good into the world can only be good for everyone, the world would be a better place. And the source of that worldview is a very wonderful human experience, which I would argue is reflective of god imo. i just try not to be a shitty person because i believe people should treat others how they would wish to be treated. You believe that. I’d say that is your spiritual worldview. If you found a couple dozen others who see things that way, you'd have religion. i am just going to teach them that being good feels good, and eventually good comes back to you. Yes, ‘good’ is an attractive force it seems. You’ve looked at both sides of the Moral Law and voted for what is right, and good. Why can’t that be your choosing god? Because people of a different experience tell you it isn’t? And I pre-emptively apologize if you're offended by my suggestion. You certainly aren't obliged to say you believe in anything! Just that in my humble opinion, you kinda already do.
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miamicatt 9247 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-08, 09:42 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: non-believer" |
anyway, i believe religion does have some positive aspects. well, it CAN, i should say. but primarily, religion has caused more suffering than good, IMO.Wow do I disagree with that. I think the suffering gets into headlines and history books more often. Every day there are millions of godly actions around the world—and I don’t mean just by Christians either. O RLY? And why does it have to be "godly"? What does "godly" even mean? I disagree with your disagreement! Yes, ‘good’ is an attractive force it seems. You’ve looked at both sides of the Moral Law and voted for what is right, and good. Why can’t that be your choosing god? Because people of a different experience tell you it isn’t? Why does it HAVE to be her choosing god? Because people of YOUR experience believe that it is? Can one not choose to do good simply because it makes them feel good? (see folks, we have these discussions on OT so we don't have to have them at home. He's playing with the baby right now. In a bit, I'll play with the baby and he'll check the computer. See it's fun, it's like a game...ah, I love the smell of a good religious flamewar in the morning...)
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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-08, 09:50 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: non-believer" |
And perfect timing at that, seeing it`ll be Sunday morning! 
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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 12:08 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: non-believer" |
{cq}anyway, i believe religion does have some positive aspects. well, it CAN, i should say. but primarily, religion has caused more suffering than good, IMO. {jimbo}Wow do I disagree with that. I think the suffering gets into headlines and history books more often. Every day there are millions of godly actions around the world—and I don’t mean just by Christians either. {catt}O RLY? And why does it have to be "godly"? What does "godly" even mean? I disagree with your disagreement! Because in the context of her quote I was replying to we were talking about the harm/benefit done in the name of religion. So while many good deeds get done entirely outside of a religious motive, there's a vast amount inspired by religion as well--most of it outside the spotlight. Why does it HAVE to be her choosing god? Because people of YOUR experience believe that it is? Can one not choose to do good simply because it makes them feel good? It doesn't have to be her choosing god. I doesn't *have* to be anything. I'm just sharing my opinion hon! You know I enjoy talking about God. I love to find out what that word means to people, how they arrived at such an assessment, and see where we agree/don't agree. But the "establishment" of organized religion has offended so many that to associate myself with Christianity often times prevents the very conversations I enjoy most. We've pissed of the gays, we've pissed of the non-believers, and now spiritual discussion is taboo--one could even say scoffed at by some. So my little personal campaign isn't to water down my beliefs, but to protect them from being bastardized by religion. I do believe most human beings have an active god-concept as part of their worldview. I also think if we weren't so obsessed with the "packaging" of it all, we'd find ourselves a lot closer than conventional wisdom might expect. In this particular scenario, instead of talking with cq about how "doing good feels good" is such a profound, yet simple, Truth…I could focus on the anti-religion angle she took. And obviously, if I do try to pick up the Jesus-debate I'm not expecting a mutually-enriching dialogue! So that was me, trying to see if I could bridge the religion divide and make it okay to talk about 'god' without having to define the unfathomable. So *I* mean something different when I say 'god' than bible thumpers might, however, I think it is time to defend Love more aggressively. The entire god-concept has been hijacked and turned into an excuse for anything but Love. Might have to explain myself to non-believers, and defend myself to believers…but it's worth it imo if we can talk about uplifting aspects of life more often!
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cqvenus 9765 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 03:14 PM (EST)
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33. "for jimbo" |
i appreciate what you are saying, but i put you in the same camp as the 'all the good comes from jesus' people for thinking that anything i said proves i believe in god.maybe you believe what i believe and have used that to draw the conclusion that god exists. i? take that same information and decide that god does not exist. i think it's sort of a cop-out on the part of the human species to take this idea that we have to answer to something outside ourselves. i think maybe the idea came from people who wanted to control the noncompliant. personally, i don't NEED god. i think people should just be good without fear of burning in hell, especially b/c to me the idea of hell is just a silly story meant to scare people. cq
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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 06:45 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: for jimbo" |
I simply can't agree with this statement. Sure you could. If you chose to. It reflects nothing of the kind unless you believe in a concept of god. It reflects how *I* see human nature. Just because *I* think someone's worldview is indicative of god doesn't mean they have to believe in god, does it? If you don't, you can attibute it to all kinds of things. It is just as easy to attribute it to an evolutionary trait as it is to a god concept. Why isn't it possible we just evolved a god-concept? Certainly, human beings exhibit a much more robust, unified, longstanding moral law than any other creature alive. How can it be that our entire species is familiar with right and wrong, if not for some semblance of the spiritual side? Whether cq's spiritual side (the place where doing good feels good) is evolved or inspired by an old guy with a long white beard is a worthwhile topic in its own right. But that's not the angle I'm concerned with in this thread.
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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-08, 10:25 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
Corollary to the above, from an ignorant pretender:One should always keep in mind that there can be a difference between a truth that one really wants to believe in, and what exists as actual truth. Wanting to believe in something doesn't mean that that something exists, and no matter how devoutly one wishes for it to be otherwise, a non-fact cannot be a fact. Another corollary (Hey, I'm on a roll): Without proof, the skeptic is usually right. Boo! I am the MOLE!I am here to taunt you! Boo!
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SherpaDave 8326 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 03:32 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
My problem is that the same church would probably not give many others the same kind of feeling. I don't find that problematic at all, but rather a cause for joy. Like a few others in this thread, I believe in God and in Jesus, but also like a few others in this thread, I don't believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to know God. He's the right way for ME to know God, but he isn't for everyone. Good! That means we're as unique as we think we are (and, imho, as unique as God intended us to be). I also love the analogy further on in the thread about proving love, and absolutely disagree with Geg's rebuttal. Love is not probable scientifically at ALL, and for someone who almost always embraces the scientific method to say that she's seen love proven... well... I don't buy it. At some level, she KNOWS it and has FAITH in it, but it's not scientifically provable. And that's much my feeling about God. At some level, I KNOW him and have FAITH in him, but I know I can't prove his existence. And I'm absolutely okay with that. Further, saying that it's a problem that there are different ways to God, that they all have to be wrong because they can't all be right... that strikes me as the very core of what causes fundamentalism in the first place--an unwillingness to consider the idea that there's more than one path.
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SherpaDave 8326 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 03:47 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: well..." |
Are there not people who outright contradict each other?
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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 04:19 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: well..." |
To me, 'god' is as simple as our experience of gravity and as complex as understanding spacetime.I believe the force-type aspect of god is an attractive one, meaning that we are (always have been) drawn to it. Like you say, it feels good to do good. Imagine drops of water running down a hillside. They are drawn to the river, the lake, the ocean, and back to the clouds from where they came. While the drops don't understand gravity, they're still subjected to it. In this way I think there is something within humans that knows good from bad (or right and wrong) and desires good. You may believe *it* is the product of evolution, and I may believe *it* is something entirely unnatural…but *it* exists either way. (And the taboo around discussing *it* is what saddens me.) Some drops will merge and follow a well-worn path, possibly even forming a groove that will channel millions of drops the same way. Many grooves might form, taking completely different paths to the end. Each path shaped entirely independent from the others, and all with the same destination. This is religion. For many, the 'groove' of religion is a proven way to learn and share our innate goodness. Some drops will take a short trip, others a long one. More than a few will wind up in a puddle, stagnating and getting all icky. This is the variety of experience in our human condition. And regardless if you think you came entirely from dirt and will return just the same, I see our experience down the hillside more alike than different. In the end, we would be better off appreciating this diversity (and not be threatened or offended by it). As for contradictory religions, I think that is more a reflection of human diversity than it is a verdict against god. Heck, even police know that three witnesses will give three different accounts of the same crime--which they actually saw with their own eyes! So the fact religion has been around for all of recorded history, and is more aligned in essence than varying in details, gives me comfort that this one aspect of our humanity is rather homogenous.
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 04:26 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: well..." |
I dig analogies.This is a pretty good one. The only thing I would point out is that the drops don't have free will. They're not only subjected to gravity, but bound by it. The human experience has something that the drops lack, which is the free will to choose not to roll down the hill, but also the capacity to understand that they have that choice. And that's where discussions like this come from.
Arkie Autumn Art!
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 08:42 PM (EST)
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56. "RE: well..." |
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-08 AT 08:46 PM (EST)I disagree that we are bound by morality. In the example of the water drops, the water can't in and of itself, decide to go against gravity. While it is true that not all water is moved by gravity, if it doesn't move, it sits still. There's no means by which the water can move entirely against gravity, should it choose to do so. Humans can, and do, move against the moral binding that you suggest. The choices for humans are not 1.) go with the flow or 2.) sit still. There's a third choice, to do entirely the opposite of what the moral binding would lead us to do. You can see it in such simple terms as the fact that humans defy gravity itself every day, just by getting out of bed, not to mention overpowering the force of gravity that it takes to leave the earth's surface completely (which we've also done). Given those terms, humans are practically compelled to defy the constraints that bind them. Humans have evolved learning that living in groups or societies is better for the whole than living individually. Schools of fish also know this, along with elephants, bees, meerkats, other primates. . . the list goes on. Societies, in order to be successful, have rules of conduct which are cast to ensure the overall survival of the group, but not giving preference to any one individual. The difference between humans and other creatures is that we've evolved not only language but also writing (and the internet, woo!) to be able to share these rules. Within that, we've evolved stories and tales and concepts to explain the rules that, by nature, we tend to live by anyway. Regardless, there are always individuals who work against the rules of the society simply because it is within their power to do so. Some people call that good and evil, some call it nature. Whatever you call it, it's still there. Most of the rules of societal survival are found within the basics of most religions. The reason that many religions have similar ideas and concepts is because the basics of human survival are more or less universal.
Arkie Autumn Art!
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 11:48 AM (EST)
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23. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
I don't think it will surprise anyone here to see that I agree with you, bacon, and that I, too, found Religulous a mostly smart and thought-provoking film.I came of age in a very, very Roman Catholic household in which my mother's religious views were dominant as she was the one who most cared about such things (my dad, born a Methodist, converted to RC after the first four kids had been born). My mom's religious beliefs led to progressive politics in civil rights, poverty, and education. But she was quite against divorce, birth control, and choice. My dad was the first and, for most of my childhood, the only dissenting voice I heard regarding my mother's most rigid beliefs, even after his conversion. It all led me to look into Church history, which led me to further research into religion in general. Which led me to where I am today, essentially where you are and where Bill Maher stands. I find very little about any religion to be worthy of my time or respect. I understand that this is a very unpopular view and that most find it insulting. But I really don't mean to be insulting and the fact that no one can assimilate that as simply my conclusion and choice, respect it as that, and understand that I have no desire to "convert" anyone to my point of view has always puzzled and amused me. It puzzles me in that the people who attack my opinion on the subject of religion feel such a need to convince me I am mistaken, as if I cannot be rational or have human feelings like empathy or have a moral code or have any capability for good whatsoever. The reality is that I do have all those things, as much as or perhaps more than most religious people with whom I have come into contact. But my behaviors seem to mean less to them than that I be convinced of their righteousness and my lack of it. It amuses me because I see so much hypocrisy in it all that all one in my position can do is to laugh. It is not a derisive laugh (okay, maybe sometimes...) but the laugh of someone who cannot do anything else about it. I'm not going to try to convince anyone else of my point of view on this and I can't convince anyone of the rampant hypocrisy among most of those who are most adamantly religious, whatever the denomination. I have discovered that there is no way to have a rational discussion about religion with religious people. We aren't starting from the same place and so there is nowhere for the discussion to go. It is this attitude, more than anything else, that turned me away from religion. The flying spaghetti monster, the magical thinking, the craven fixation with money, the institutionalized discrimination, the fear-mongering and pandering to ignorance, and the wars and torture and suffering in the name of religions are all plenty reason for a person like me, of a very rational bent of thinking, to jettison religion as a part of life. But the overall hypocrisy and lack of desire for insight into that hypocrisy of it all is my biggest problem with it. I am often told that I am the one who hold the rigid beliefs and closed-minded attitude when it comes to religion. However, I dispute that completely. I am totally open to changing my attitude in regard to religion and belief in a "god" that not only created the universe but is intensely interested and invested in what we do with it. But "belief" isn't good enough for me. I need proof. I once believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Belief wasn't enough in any of those cases, either. 
"There are souls that, crablike, crawl continually toward darkness, going backward in life rather than advancing, using their experience to increase their deformity, growing continually worse, and becoming steeped more and more thoroughly in the intensifying viciousness." Victor Hugo
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Starshine 5033 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 01:13 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
Geg, I would agree that you have highlighted a number of the problems with organised religion.There is a huge amount of hypocrisy, whilst there are evil ******** like Pope Pius XII, there are also people like Albert Schweitzer or Mother Theresa, not enough of them certainly, but they do exist, and have done what they did in the name of the God that they believed in. I think that it is impossible to provide proof of any religion (prior to ones arrival in the afterlife  ). I think those of us who are religious would say that proof came to us. The problem with discussion of religion in a logical fashion is that the religious and non-religious start with different axioms. Although Godel is supposed to have logically proved the existence of God I cannot understand his proof, and all other proofs seem to start with the assumption that God does exist, which is obviously not helpful. J Slice what a cool lady
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 01:43 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
I guess my point, really, is that the Albert Schweitzers and Mother Theresas of the world don't need religion to do the good things they did. Why does anyone need to do anything for a god? Why is not just doing something for the sake of the positive good it brings enough? And why do the religious so often want to minimize the fact that the non-religious, irreligious, and deniers of religion do good simply for the sake of doing good and don't need a god in order to do it?I, personally, believe religion, taken as a whole, does more harm than good. But I don't deny that some who have religion can do good. I find I and my fellow non-believers do not get the same respect from them. Which tends to harden my opinion. Funny how that works.
"There are souls that, crablike, crawl continually toward darkness, going backward in life rather than advancing, using their experience to increase their deformity, growing continually worse, and becoming steeped more and more thoroughly in the intensifying viciousness." Victor Hugo
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 01:58 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
Expecting proof that God exists is like expecting proof that someone loves you. There is none. Anything that a person can do to "prove" that he or she loves you is purely anecdotal and subject to interpretation, questioning and doubt. At some point you just decide that you've gathered enough anecdotal evidence and that it's good enough for you, and you accept and believe that the person loves you. You can't ever really know, though. Not really. Love (and, in my opinion, God) are concepts that exist in a shared human dimension that can't be accessed in our physical dimensions. You can only get a glimpse of them in the same way that you can glimpse an object you can't see by the shadow it casts. You can consider the shadow "proof" or you can wait until you actually see the object. I actually don't think either approach is wrong, it's just a measure by which a person determines how much they're willing to assume (or, believe.)
Arkie Autumn Art!
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 03:02 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
I see what you are saying, though I don't agree.I've seen plenty of proof that people love me, just as I have proven to them over and over that I love them. It's not at all hard for me to see that the people I love either love me or not. And it doesn't take any great leaps of faith to know it, either. They show it in a myriad of ways and prove it to me over and over and over. Or not, as the case may be. But their behavior is the proof. I haven't lived lo, these many years not to learn how to spot who loves and who doesn't by their behavior toward me. No gods have ever behaved in any way toward me at all. For good or bad. Simply nothing at all. Ever. Even though I tried to find ways that a god may be trying to act on me or through me or with me. But not a whisper or even a shadow. Again, I'm perfectly happy in my lack of god and religion. I have no desire to revisit my conclusion absent proof. And shadows lie and hide reality a lot times, leading people to make assumptions that aren't true. And we all know what assumptions do to you and me. So, no shadows for me, thanks.
"There are souls that, crablike, crawl continually toward darkness, going backward in life rather than advancing, using their experience to increase their deformity, growing continually worse, and becoming steeped more and more thoroughly in the intensifying viciousness." Victor Hugo
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 04:03 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
Well, to be honest, I really don't care if someone, in hir heart, really does love me as long as he/she treats me as if that is so and does it consistently and without prerequisites or outside motivation. That provides me as much proof as I need. It is certainly more proof of love on their part and more reliable than anything you'll find in religion or a god-concept.
"There are souls that, crablike, crawl continually toward darkness, going backward in life rather than advancing, using their experience to increase their deformity, growing continually worse, and becoming steeped more and more thoroughly in the intensifying viciousness." Victor Hugo
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 04:18 PM (EST)
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44. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
But see, this is where my problem lies.What, exactly, in your experience shows you any sort of evidence (like the evidence you have of a person's love for you) religion is a positive good or that god exists and cares at all about you? I spent 20 years trying to find that, sincerely and at least starting in the belief that both statements are true, and never did.
"There are souls that, crablike, crawl continually toward darkness, going backward in life rather than advancing, using their experience to increase their deformity, growing continually worse, and becoming steeped more and more thoroughly in the intensifying viciousness." Victor Hugo
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SherpaDave 8326 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 04:41 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
The glib answer that comes to mind is that I haven't killed myself yet. Came close a couple times. In one case, reading from the Bible (and honestly, I think the calming effect could have come from reading just about any book--it was the act of reading that helped most) helped draw me back from the brink. (There's a lot of history in that specific Bible, too, not all of it good, but on balance, a very positive part of my life, including being used in the wedding ceremony for Jimbo and MCatt.) In another, I was taken to the hospital by a man with whom my relationship previously had only been REALLY negative. He absolutely could have chosen not to be there for me, but dropped everything he was doing to take me in. My ride home from the hospital came from a friend from church. I consider they guy who took me in an important friend now (and he actually now attends that same church, although I no longer do, as the new pastor preaches politically, which I can't abide, and I also don't live as close to that church as I used to).Religion (and I have a LOT of problems with religion) was perhaps the only good force in my life a few years ago. I was surrounded by people in my church who genuinely cared about me, many of whom I still consider very good friends, even though I don't attend that church anymore. The period toward the end of my marriage (and just after it ended) was the darkest of my life. Religion was one of the few bright spots. My friendship with Jimbo was founded on discussions surrounding religion and how it played into our lives. One week, we'd go to his church for their worship music; the next, we'd go to a bar and talk. Bebekid was another who was a hugely positive person when I needed on to talk to, and her outreach to a person in pain was based, if not entirely, then at least in essence, on her Christian faith. Many Christians talk about being saved by Jesus. In my case, I was saved by the very people who believe he saved them. And I don't mean in an afterlife sense. I mean my life would have been much easier to throw away if not for those Christians who went out of their way to care for me. I imagine, if I'd been a Muslim, that it similarly would have been Muslims who saved me. And, in each case, I asked for God's help. I pleaded for it. And that mere action gave me comfort. Maybe the repetition of any words would have soothed me, like a mantra. Maybe not. I do know that talking to God, I was answered, not in words, but in gaining that which I asked for: the calmness to live, at least in and for that moment. Aside from that, though, I see God in my favorite places in nature: in the bodies of water I cross every day, in the evergreens out my window, in the life all around me. When I slow down enough to let my shoulders relax and my lungs to breathe deeply, I am almost always awed by what I see around me. I also see God in love. To me, that is God's most basic definition: God is love. And I am awed by love, whether from my girlfriend (the two of us continue to be stunned by how crazy we are about each other at a time when we're used to relationships having long since faded), or my children, or my friends. I am a deeply flawed person, and that anyone could find it in his or her heart to love me... yes, I do thank God for that.
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 04:52 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
It's interesting to hear what actually makes a person believe. I thank you for sharing that and appreciate your honesty.I could go into a big post about my search for faith, but I'll spare us all. Suffice it to say that I, too, have been tested in many of the same ways you have and have had many of the same types of discussions you had. I, too, begged and pleaded and talked to god for illumination that never came. However, I think we came to the same place through completely different conclusions. I am happier and more satisfied with my life and the world around me now than I ever have been. Part of reaching this place (and only a part) has been settling this whole religion/god question in my mind in the manner in which I have. And the main reason that helped me was that it allowed to just take pleasure in the simplest things in the world, my family, my boyfriend, my job, my friends, and myself. It was as if getting rid of all that baggage from religion and pleasing god set me free to actually become self-actualized. I still work on this all the time (no one is perfect!), but it has changed my life and my outlook in ways I can't begin to describe. Religion and god work for some people. Getting rid of religion and god works for others.
"There are souls that, crablike, crawl continually toward darkness, going backward in life rather than advancing, using their experience to increase their deformity, growing continually worse, and becoming steeped more and more thoroughly in the intensifying viciousness." Victor Hugo
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 03:56 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
Yikes, I might be a bigger cynic, pragmatically speaking, than you are. I don't believe that love can be proven. I believe that it can be expressed, and shared, and shown in many different ways, but it takes a certain leap of faith to take an expression of thoughtfulness, or generosity, or sacrifice, or forgiveness and attribute it to nothing but love. In then end, you're the one who chooses to believe that the myriad of ways that people have shown you are, in fact, expressions of love. People lie about love, convincingly. All the time. On the other hand, if you were to tell me, for example, that your father loved you, I wouldn't ask you to prove it. That you believe it is enough for you (and it doesn't matter what's enough for me.) You have to be willing to believe that someone loves you before you accept that they do. Otherwise, if you don't want to believe it, you'll find a million reasons to question it. (Believe me, I spend an inordinate amount of time questioning whether people like me and coming up with reasons why they shouldn't. If I have that much difficulty with people, you can imagine how I am with the nebulous concept of God.) Similarly, people have profound experiences that to them, offer enough of what they choose to take as proof of God, whether it be a medical miracle, and answer to a prayer, a sudden realization, or an appreciation and awe of the world around them. You or I might not see those experiences as enough "proof" but some people do. I wouldn't question them any more than I'd question your experience of love. I realize that this is sort of off track from the original conversation, and I'm not actually disagreeing with you. Just saying that if you want to be loved, or find proof of God, you will, because you have to be willing to see it in order to really believe it.
Arkie Autumn Art!
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 04:35 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
>I don't believe that love can be proven. I believe that it can be expressed, and shared, and shown in many different ways, but it takes a certain leap of faith to take an expression of thoughtfulness, or generosity, or sacrifice, or forgiveness and attribute it to nothing but love. In then end, you're the one who chooses to believe that the myriad of ways that people have shown you are, in fact, expressions of love. People lie about love, convincingly. All the time. Well, I think I refined a bit what I said above. No, there's no proof they love me, but the evidence is quite overwhelming in favor of them loving me. If they don't and I'm fooled by it, then...they didn't love me, I guess. No big deal, really, other than I have to then refine my definition of adequate proofs. And if they don't really love me, but show no evidence of that, then what's the big deal? I can't really see one. And, yes, people lie about love all the time. But I disagree that they do it convincingly. It is only convincing if you are willing to overlook all the hints that they don't really love you. And some of them love you, but still lie because they don't love themselves. I truly believe that is the story of my relationship with my XDBF. He loved me, he still loves me, but he can't act lovingly because he doesn't love himself. >You have to be willing to believe that someone loves you before you accept that they do. Otherwise, if you don't want to believe it, you'll find a million reasons to question it. I have come to a point in my life now that I simply don't question it. I let it play out and see what they do because I truly believe actions speak a thousand times louder than words. I refuse to worry anymore about trying to divine motives of others. I have my own motivations to worry about. It's all I can do to keep myself thinking straight about myself. >Similarly, people have profound experiences that to them, offer enough of what they choose to take as proof of God, Oh, I agree. And I respect that. I don't expect anyone to come around to my way of thinking on this. As I said above, I just wish those same people would respect my choice in this matter as much as I do theirs. Unfortunately, that is almost never the case. And that is due, IMHO, to the nature of religion. I have much less argument with the idea that people believe in god than the idea that they believe in religion. God might not be such a bad concept if it didn't come with all that religion stuff attached.
"There are souls that, crablike, crawl continually toward darkness, going backward in life rather than advancing, using their experience to increase their deformity, growing continually worse, and becoming steeped more and more thoroughly in the intensifying viciousness." Victor Hugo
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 04:51 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
I have much less argument with the idea that people believe in god than the idea that they believe in religion. God might not be such a bad concept if it didn't come with all that religion stuff attached.I agree with you. That God has become so tied into religion that it's hard for people to separate the concept of God from the concept of religion is, IMHO, what's wrong with religion. I'm going to play with and rewrite your paragraph here, just to make a point: Well, I think I refined a bit what I said above. No, there's no proof there is a God, but the evidence is quite overwhelming (to some people) in favor of there being one. If there isn't and they're fooled by it, then...there isn't a God, I guess. No big deal, really, other than they have to then refine their definition of adequate proofs. And if there isn't a God, but these things that point to some level of goodness and beauty anyway, then what's the big deal? I can't really see one. Now, if I take my evidence and proof and belief in God and beat you up and call you a dummy for having a different experience and opinion, that's a problem. Merely believing in God doesn't cause any inherent harm, unless one decides that their way is the ONLY way.
Arkie Autumn Art!
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 12:38 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Why Bill Maher's Movie Makes Sense To Me" |
However, I would be interested to hear, and hopefully in logical terms, why someone should believe a specific religion. I really am interested in why someone would have an opposite reaction to religion than I had. Why is Christianity more believable than being a Muslim, or vise versa? Why is Scientology not believable compared to the other two I just mentioned? Standing back from your own biases, why does one religion sound more sane than another?Asking this question is like asking what language is "right." Is English more right than Spanish? Why would someone choose to speak Farsi? It's largely a factor of what you learned, how and where you grew up, what people around you do, and what your cultural surroundings are like later in life. There are words for concepts in some languages that don't exist in others; that does mean that the concepts don't exist, just that the words don't. Religion, organized religion, and its variations are different languages saying similar things in different ways. If you're looking for a "who's right and who's wrong" type of answer you just won't get it, because to find the truth, you have to first agree on the definition of what the truth is. It's important to note that organized, institutionalized religion comes with a lot of human baggage that gets in the way of the concepts contained within. Money is a big one.
Arkie Autumn Art!
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 01:26 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Good analogy" |
To me, religion is the words, but the purpose of it is communication. So many people get so hung up on the words (religion) and totally miss out on the larger concept of communication (shared spirituality).I have this thing and I call it a potato. My friend has one and he calls it a kartoffel. I mash mine up and mix it with cream and butter. He slices his and fries it with onions. Who is right? Who is wrong? Maybe we should go to war over it.
Arkie Autumn Art!
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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-08, 01:47 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Good analogy" |
From the 3rd Matrix, where Neo meets a program trying to "smuggle" his daughter out of the machine world to save her existence.Neo: I just have never...
Rama-Kandra: ...heard a program speak of love? Neo: It's a... human emotion. Rama-Kandra: No, it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies. I see that you are in love. Can you tell me what you would give to hold on to that connection?
Neo: Anything. Rama-Kandra: Then perhaps the reason you're here is not so different from the reason I'm here.
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