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"Speaking of markets..."
singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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08-25-08, 09:14 AM (EST)
 
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"Speaking of markets..." |
New York, the District of Columbia, Chicago and Iowa are providing students with cash incentives to perform well in public schools.http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=316&sid=1464390
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080817/NEWS02/808170334/1004 Is "buying performance" and creating incentives in keeping with traditional ideals about American public education? Given our current educational morass, can the argument be made that it is completely practical to take this approach? *Again, proceed with caution if thoughtful discussions cause phobic reactions*
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agman 11166 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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08-25-08, 09:49 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Speaking of markets..." |
LAST EDITED ON 08-25-08 AT 09:52 AM (EST)On first reading, I thought this was a terrible idea because as a teacher, you want your students to do what they are suppose to do because it's what is expected of them. My feeling has changed as I think about what one of the administarors said. "The concept may amount to nothing more than bribery."
As a society we use bibery everyday. Why do we go to work? To earn our pay.(Bribery) Many parents promise rewards to their children to accomplish various goals(bribery). I don't really think this idea is something that we don't already use. What's different to me is the use of money as the reward. I'm not use to seeing that provided by the schools. I do, however, know many parents who reward their children for A's on their report cards. It's just now being taken to a new level. While I still am trying to get use to the idea, I will be watching closely to see how this works. 
Smokey's mom puts my name on the board!
1289
ETA I am not saying that every student should/does require this, but for some students it may be just what is needed to give them the incentive to stay in school. ymmv
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jbug 17146 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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08-25-08, 10:31 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Speaking of markets..." |
Critics, who include a group of Iowa school principals, say the concept amounts to bribery for what students should be expected to do in the first place. Supporters say payments are often a last-ditch effort to keep the least-successful students interested in school and are no different than when a parent rewards a child with a dollar for every "A" on a report card(Bold is by me.)
This is so much like so many people in work places in America now. Rewards or incentives are expected; one's paycheck is not enough. I know, I fell into that trap when I was in management for 16 years. It was a tough market - trying to keep good teachers (child care programs) lots of competition between programs. We were constantly trying to come up with ways of rewarding them and making them feel appreciated. It was tough. Usually money was the only thing that was important anyway. So how do underpaid teachers feel about money being alloted for this and they still have to buy their own classroom supplies? 
A mole is a mole is an Agmole
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Sunny_Bunny 5597 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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08-25-08, 11:11 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Speaking of markets..." |
I know that with my own kids, I didn't pay them for good grades. I was providing them with what was needed for survival -- it was their JOB to do well in school. $1 a day for attendance, $10 for timely completion of a class, $20 to enroll in an advanced course ... and from the other article: Students will have the chance to earn up to $100 every two weeks, based on factors such as attendance, behavior and academic performance. 1. Attending, behaving oneself and completing class is expected. That is why they are there! When they go off to college, grants and loans get pulled if they fail to do these things - why teach them otherwise when they are in the lower grades? 2. If I teach an AP class, I can expect students who want to learn to already be there. Under this program, students who can't handle the pace and the curriculum will attempt the class based on money --AND will grouse and complain when Ms. Bunny doesn't "give" them a good grade. Great. I can expect upset students and angry parent calls because I am being unfair, mean, and keeping them from the money they "deserve," even if they cut class, act up, or simply can't handle the rigors of an AP class. Rhee says middle school is generally an important, but difficult, time for students and the money will give them an incentive to succeed. I agree that Jr. High sucks for most students. They are dealing with different teachers every period, which means figuring out the personalities and different teaching styles/expectations of at least 6 different adults. But having raised two boys, and drawing from my own experiences in Jr. High, I have to say that the biggest obstacle to most JH students is social - NOT academic. So how do underpaid teachers feel about money being alloted for this and they still have to buy their own classroom supplies? I teach in California where Arnold decided to play Terminator with school budgets. If he then turned around and started paying students to do what they should be doing in the first place, after droning on and on about how POOR California is, and how he simply HAD to cut school budgets, I would be ROYALLY put out. My solution to all of this, is to: A) dump NCLB as an experiment that failed miserably, and B) go back to offering vocational classes for those who will need to make a living but have no desire to go to college.
Dang it, Public education is a privilege that most of us treat as a right. You don't pay a person to do what is expected of them - the privilege IS the incentive.
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Snidget 44369 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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08-25-08, 10:44 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Speaking of markets..." |
I would love if all kids were raised in an environment where education was considered its own reward.However a lot of kids are in environments where the pressure is to do poorly in school. I know of cases where the pressure comes both from peers and from their own families. Unfortunately I think a lot of kids in an anti-education environment need some sort of incentive to do well despite their circumstances. Money may work both to motivate themselves as well as something the can use to shut up the people telling them they are stupid for studying so hard. I do think the money needs to come from new sources and not be taken out of teacher salaries or school supply budgets. It doesn't sound like enough money to get one out of a situation where you are told to quit at 16 to get a full time job because the parents insist, but it might help at least some kids get farther than they otherwise would. I'm glad I grew up in a family and in a neighborhood where education was something you were supposed to do and going to college was a given. Unfortunately a lot of kids are not raised in an environment that values education.
Medal winning sigs by Agman!
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mrc 10113 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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08-25-08, 11:47 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Speaking of markets..." |
LAST EDITED ON 08-25-08 AT 12:12 PM (EST)Bad idea, esp. considering the ramifications as they go to university and/or enter the workplace. "Dr. HD, if you don't change my grade, I won't get my $200." "Ms. Geg, you want me to finish that paperwork? Where's my weekly bonus?"  A Nefarious Dice Creation
ETF spelling
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Fishercat 4168 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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08-26-08, 00:55 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Speaking of markets..." |
LAST EDITED ON 08-26-08 AT 01:02 AM (EST)OK, I'm going to preface it by saying this: ideally, we wouldn't need bribes, and I think a great educator can do it based on a purely internal sense of growth. With that said, there aren't many people who can bring that out (not a slam against teachers, I mean that more in a general sense. Even if finding those inspirational teachers was a #1 priority with huge pay, I doubt we'd get enough to fill every classroom. Those are absurdly special people beyond the special people who can handle multiple classrooms). I am going to approach this from the perspective of a student, and I don't want you all to think I feel this way. Personally, I don't, but this is how I could see it. -- The student (let's put it at HS) has a job. They go to school for 30-35 hours a week. In addition, they probably have homework ranging from 0-15 hours a week. So let's put it at a 40-hour a week commitment, ignoring extra-curricular activities and socialization opportunities that are the will of the student in most cases. This is how I think they would see it. They see the job as not to do well in school, but rather to go to school. This is an attitude instilled differently from student to student, but I think most students separate the "going" and "doing well". They go because they have to go. The law requires them to attend school. To "do well", that's a decision left entirely to them, and what would benefit them the most. Most adults see it as a simple case: you should do well because, later on, it will benefit you in various ways. However, the student may not see it that way especially since doing well is entirely his or her personal choice. However, a student may weigh studying for a psychology test with going out to a party, and the party may win because it will provide much more satisfaction than a net shift of -20 points on a test. Essentially, doing well boils down to the choice of the student, since neither parent nor teacher can control it. Some students don't feel it is expected because it is not required (but the parents do, and I'll get to that later). There is no paycheck for students, and that's how many of them (including myself) see it. Every two weeks, a student's mother works her ##### off and a paycheck is deposited for that work. The student works his or her ##### off, and what's the payment? A report card every quarter that shows what you did (that you could figure out on your own), a diploma after four years saying you worked adequately for four years. Sure, for many students there is an internal satisfaction of getting a 3.7 GPA or straight-A's, but for many there aren't. I think this is an error in judgment I'm seeing in this thread. Some people are saying that academic monetary incentives don't prepare students well since they'll expect handouts later on. I would argue the opposite: the current system in it's bare bones (I am going to address parental incentives in a moment) doesn't prepare students well, because there isn't enough of a reasonable incentive. Would you go to work every day if your pay was A. The necessities and amenities an unaffiliated party deemed adequate
B. A quarterly evaluation of your activity, one both affiliated party and unaffiliated party would use for future placement and adjustment of those necessities and amenities
C. A certificate after four years saying "you worked and trained here for four years, now you can move to an advanced company" I think the culture as a whole would due to the necessities being met and I'm assuming a very basic level of "you go to school, you live in a house", but would you be less likely to strive for greatness if you weren't at least significantly more likely to be rewarded for that striving? I don't think it would be nearly as common for people to do great at their jobs or even try that much if it all washes out. -- I believe I know what most people are thinking: what about the parents? Well, I'd say 99% of parents already do this, or a form very much like it. Keithfan makes the point of fear. Well, fear is just like a monetary incentive, it's just a different standard. Basically, the KF Fear starts from a point of nothing, and says that if his daughter doesn't perform to a certain academic standard, she will not get to do club cheer and dance. And IMO, that's perfectly viable and an effective strategy. These academic incentives are coming from a different source, but it's the same idea: you start with nothing extra, and if you perform to a certain academic standard, you will get something extra. As has been mentioned, many parents already offer monetary rewards. It was never a given in my household, but sometimes my grandmother would slip me 20 dollars for a good report card or I'd get a special dinner. It was never really an incentive for me, it wasn't something I thought of as "well, I better study since maybe the 20 will come", but it was there. But some posts here indicate it's a lot bigger in some places. Really, this is nothing different than what has been going on for generations, it's just a new source, which is the issue I'd assume, and I don't have a huge problem with it if the budget can hold such a plan. The only thing that's really variable is the type of reinforcement. Money is a positive reinforcer: you do well, you earn money (well, in Des Moines, you earn money that goes to college with you). Fear can be positive or negative as Keith described it depending on viewpoint. A parent taking the belt off and whipping the child is negative reinforcement (and we had an argument about corporal punishment here, which to be perfectly honest, is eerily similar to this one in the idea of it). Ideally, a student would learn out of the innate desire to make him or herself better and improve future standing. With that said, how many adults would go to their job if that innate desire was all that was there, or more specifically, how many adults would attempt to earn that promotion if all there was was pride? It's a very interesting topic though. Huge, necessary edit note: I can't believe I forgot to post this. Here is my non-DA view. I am personally NOT a fan of school provided monetary incentives for two reasons A. The balance. I don't think most schools would be able to find a good balance. If it's just for attendance or enrolling in a specific class/passing it, the incentive's not there other than to show up. I shadowed at a HS as an education student. I saw a lot of kids who showed up who didn't care at all, this wouldn't change it. If it includes performance incentives that are based on a ranking system (Top 10%, Top 25%, Award Winners), then it gets way too cutthroat for a scholastic environment and I feel that's really harmful. B. It's the parent's job IMO. It shouldn't be a school's responsibility to provide the incentive to the point of tangible bribes. Schools aren't able to ground students or tell them not to go to a friend's house (negative incentives, the school has detention but that's not for bad grades or not showing up to school usually), and I don't think they should be able to provide those positive, tangible incentives either. It should shift back to the parents. The only problem is some parents do it better than others.
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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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08-26-08, 07:00 AM (EST)
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14. "My mother..." |
says that children will rise to the level of expectations that you place on them.I think that she is right. Urging them to action (in a Platonic sense) is the most effective pedagogical approach. She should know what she is talking about, given her decades of teaching experience. The same is true of university students, even if they enter a classroom with the wrong-headed idea that they are owed a grade. There simply are no shortcuts to learning. 
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