"Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act" - Reality TV World Message Board Forums - "Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

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"Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"	03-26-04, 04:13 PM (EST)
"Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"
-also known as Laci and Conner's Law, also know as H.R. 1997. It now goes to President Bush for signature. Both Republicans and Democrats voted for passage. The bill was introduced 5 years ago in the House but gained momentum recently due to the Laci Peterson case. I personally wrote many letters in support of this legislation to my Senators, Mike DeWine (R-OH) and George Voinovich (R-OH). So I am pleased with the outcome. story on Yahoo: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=20&u=/ap/20040326/ap_on_go_co/fetus_rights Senate voting results: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00063
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Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID

Great. Tiggertramp 03-26-04 1

   RE: Great. blacknwhitedog 03-26-04 2

       RE: Great. Tiggertramp 03-26-04 3

           RE: Great. J I M B O 03-26-04 6

               RE: Great. samiam 03-26-04 8

                   RE: Great. diamond 03-26-04 10

                   RE: Great. J I M B O 03-26-04 13

                       RE: Great. diamond 03-26-04 21

                           RE: Great. nailbone 03-26-04 22

                               RE: Great. diamond 03-26-04 25

                                   RE: Great. nailbone 03-26-04 40

                                       RE: Great. diamond 03-26-04 55

                                           RE: Great. nailbone 03-26-04 57

                                               RE: Great. desert_rhino 03-26-04 66

                                                   RE: Great. nailbone 03-26-04 67

                                                   RE: Great. RudyRules 03-27-04 178

                                                       RE: Great. desert_rhino 03-28-04 212

                                                           RE: Great. RudyRules 03-28-04 216

                                           RE: Great. Devious Weasel 03-26-04 58

                           RE: Great. J I M B O 03-26-04 26

                           RE: Great. DoodleBug 03-26-04 36

                               RE: Great. Devious Weasel 03-26-04 38

                                   RE: Great. DoodleBug 03-26-04 65

                               RE: Great. TechNoir 03-26-04 98

                                   *thud* DSpunk 03-26-04 99

                                       RE: *thud* TechNoir 03-26-04 105

                                           and now... DSpunk 03-26-04 106

               RE: Great. diamond 03-26-04 9

                   RE: Great. nailbone 03-26-04 15

                       RE: Great. TechNoir 03-26-04 122

                           RE: Great. RudyRules 03-27-04 186

                               RE: Great. TechNoir 03-27-04 190

                                   RE: Great. RudyRules 03-28-04 217

                                       RE: Great. TechNoir 03-28-04 223

                                           RE: Great. RudyRules 03-28-04 227

                                           RE: Great. nailbone 03-29-04 311

                                               RE: Great. mistofleas 03-29-04 312

                                                   RE: Great. nailbone 03-29-04 313

                                                   RE: Great. RudyRules 03-29-04 363

                                                   Fetal Development DoodleBug 03-29-04 379

                           RE: Great. LadyT 03-28-04 244

                               RE: Great. RudyRules 03-28-04 248

                                   RE: Great. LadyT 03-28-04 254

                                   RE: Great. mistofleas 03-28-04 256

                                       RE: Great. PepeLePew13 03-28-04 264

                                           RE: Great. mistofleas 03-28-04 265

                                               RE: Great. PepeLePew13 03-28-04 275

                                                   RE: Great. mistofleas 03-28-04 280

                   Can I get an DSpunk 03-26-04 42

                       RE: Can I get an J I M B O 03-26-04 46

                           RE: Can I get an nailbone 03-26-04 49

                               It was in reference to DSpunk 03-26-04 59

                                   RE: It was in reference to nailbone 03-26-04 61

                                       RE: It was in reference to DSpunk 03-26-04 74

                                           RE: It was in reference to nailbone 03-26-04 80

                                               Woohoo! DSpunk 03-26-04 82

                               RE: Can I get an J I M B O 03-26-04 62

                                   RE: Can I get an nailbone 03-26-04 64

                       RE: Can I get an Loquatrix 03-26-04 83

                           From what I understand DSpunk 03-26-04 84

                       RE: Can I get an diamond 03-26-04 88

                           Helloooo J I M B O 03-26-04 92

                               RE: Helloooo diamond 03-26-04 93

                                   RE: Helloooo J I M B O 03-26-04 94

                           RE: Can I get an DSpunk 03-26-04 96

                               RE: Can I get an J I M B O 03-26-04 101

       RE: Great. Breezy 03-26-04 4

       RE: Great. diamond 03-26-04 5

           RE: Great. Tiggertramp 03-26-04 7

               RE: Great. mistofleas 03-26-04 14

                   RE: Great. Tiggertramp 03-26-04 19

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... blacknwhitedog 03-26-04 11

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Tiggertramp 03-26-04 16

       Aren't you in MN? Breezy 03-26-04 23

           RE: Aren't you in MN? Tiggertramp 03-26-04 31

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... blacknwhitedog 03-26-04 32

           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Tiggertramp 03-26-04 41

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-26-04 17

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... FesterFan1 03-26-04 20

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... diamond 03-26-04 27

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... samiam 03-26-04 34

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... AZ_Leo 03-26-04 71

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... blacknwhitedog 03-26-04 39

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Tiggertramp 03-26-04 45

           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... blacknwhitedog 03-26-04 60

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-26-04 102

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-27-04 179

           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-27-04 188

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-28-04 218

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-28-04 220

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-28-04 231

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-28-04 233

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-28-04 234

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-28-04 249

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... DoodleBug 03-26-04 12

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... desert_rhino 03-26-04 69

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... DoodleBug 03-26-04 76

           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-26-04 103

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... DoodleBug 03-26-04 129

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-27-04 136

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... DoodleBug 03-29-04 305

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 149

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-27-04 155

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... smiley 03-27-04 164

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... true 03-27-04 169

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Bucky Katt 03-27-04 171

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... LadyT 03-28-04 246

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... I_AM_HE 03-26-04 78

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-27-04 180

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... nailbone 03-26-04 18

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... LadyT 03-28-04 247

Can we please, please, please.... Bucky Katt 03-26-04 24

   RE: Can we please, please, please..... Tiggertramp 03-26-04 28

   I Think Devious Weasel 03-26-04 29

       There you go again... Tiggertramp 03-26-04 33

       RE: I Think diamond 03-26-04 37

           RE: I Think Devious Weasel 03-26-04 43

               RE: I Think diamond 03-26-04 47

                   RE: I Think Devious Weasel 03-26-04 56

               how bout J I M B O 03-26-04 51

               RE: I Think Tiggertramp 03-26-04 53

       RE: I Think nailbone 03-26-04 44

   RE: Can we please, please, please..... RudyRules 03-27-04 181

Here's what I don't get FesterFan1 03-26-04 30

   RE: Here's what I don't get blacknwhitedog 03-26-04 35

       RE: Here's what I don't get samiam 03-26-04 48

       I wish we would stop naming acts af... ginger 03-26-04 50

           RE: I wish we would stop naming act... Devious Weasel 03-26-04 52

               RE: I wish we would stop naming act... ginger 03-26-04 68

   Key vote AyaK 03-26-04 54

       RE: Key vote J I M B O 03-26-04 77

           Sorry AyaK 03-26-04 125

   RE: Hypothetical Part 2 MTW1961 03-26-04 95

       RE: Hypothetical Part 2 RudyRules 03-27-04 183

           RE: Hypothetical Part 2 mistofleas 03-27-04 187

           RE: Hypothetical Part 2 Spidey 03-28-04 192

               RE: Hypothetical Part 2 mistofleas 03-28-04 202

                   RE: Hypothetical Part 2 Spidey 03-28-04 204

                       RE: Hypothetical Part 2 mistofleas 03-28-04 208

comparison to RICO... desert_rhino 03-26-04 63

   RE: comparison to RICO... J I M B O 03-26-04 70

       RE: comparison to RICO... desert_rhino 03-26-04 73

   Disagree AyaK 03-26-04 72

       RE: Disagree desert_rhino 03-26-04 79

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... blacknwhitedog 03-26-04 75

   Yeah, but DSpunk 03-26-04 81

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Loquatrix 03-26-04 85

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... DSpunk 03-26-04 86

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... J I M B O 03-26-04 87

           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... ginger 03-26-04 89

               Sorry for the confusion J I M B O 03-26-04 90

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... bondt007 03-26-04 113

Question for those opposed: MTW1961 03-26-04 91

   Oh no DSpunk 03-26-04 97

       RE: Oh no MTW1961 03-26-04 100

           RE: Oh no TechNoir 03-26-04 107

               RE: Oh no J I M B O 03-26-04 115

                   RE: Oh no bebekid 03-26-04 117

                   RE: Oh no TechNoir 03-26-04 118

                       RE: Oh no DoodleBug 03-26-04 130

                           RE: Oh no PepeLePew13 03-27-04 135

                               RE: Oh no TechNoir 03-27-04 137

   RE: Question for those opposed: AZ_Leo 03-26-04 104

       RE: Question for those opposed: MTW1961 03-26-04 108

       RE: Question for those opposed: TechNoir 03-26-04 109

           RE: Question for those opposed: MTW1961 03-26-04 111

               RE: Question for those opposed: AZ_Leo 03-26-04 119

           THAT DSpunk 03-26-04 112

           RE: Question for those opposed: AZ_Leo 03-26-04 116

           RE: Question for those opposed: aethelstan 03-26-04 124

               RE: Question for those opposed: TechNoir 03-26-04 126

                   RE: Question for those opposed: Bucky Katt 03-26-04 128

                       RE: Question for those opposed: TechNoir 03-27-04 138

                           RE: Question for those opposed: I_Got_Nutn 03-27-04 141

                           RE: Question for those opposed: Bucky Katt 03-27-04 145

                               RE: Question for those opposed: TechNoir 03-27-04 154

               State Requirements for cousins marr... AZ_Leo 03-27-04 150

March for Women's Lives, April 25, ... TechNoir 03-26-04 110

   RE: March for Women's Lives, April ... bondt007 03-26-04 114

       RE: March for Women's Lives, April ... TechNoir 03-26-04 120

           RE: March for Women's Lives, April ... bondt007 03-26-04 121

               RE: March for Women's Lives, April ... TechNoir 03-26-04 123

       RE: March for Women's Lives, April ... I_Got_Nutn 03-26-04 127

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... KeithFan 03-27-04 131

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... diamond 03-27-04 132

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... I_Got_Nutn 03-27-04 133

           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 140

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... I_Got_Nutn 03-27-04 142

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 143

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... I_Got_Nutn 03-27-04 146

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 148

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... I_Got_Nutn 03-27-04 151

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 153

                                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... PepeLePew13 03-27-04 156

                                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 157

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... MTW1961 03-27-04 134

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-27-04 139

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Bucky Katt 03-27-04 144

           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 147

       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... KeithFan 03-27-04 158

           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 159

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... diamond 03-27-04 160

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 161

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... diamond 03-27-04 162

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 163

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... diamond 03-27-04 166

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... KeithFan 03-27-04 165

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 182

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... KeithFan 03-27-04 191

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Spidey 03-28-04 194

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... KeithFan 03-28-04 195

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Spidey 03-28-04 196

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... desert_rhino 03-28-04 211

                                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-28-04 213

                                       JV, Spidey 03-28-04 245

                                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... KeithFan 03-29-04 303

                                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-29-04 364

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Tiggertramp 03-28-04 198

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-28-04 199

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Lisapooh 03-28-04 214

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-28-04 215

                                       And a part of argument is untouched Tiggertramp 03-28-04 222

                                           RE: And a part of argument is untou... RudyRules 03-28-04 251

                                   request blacknwhitedog 03-29-04 342

                                       RE: request Tiggertramp 03-29-04 372

                                           RE: request blacknwhitedog 03-29-04 375

                                               RE: request Tiggertramp 03-29-04 376

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... I_Got_Nutn 03-27-04 167

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... true 03-27-04 168

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-27-04 170

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... desert_rhino 03-27-04 173

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... I_Got_Nutn 03-27-04 177

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-27-04 184

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Bucky Katt 03-27-04 172

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Tiggertramp 03-27-04 174

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Bucky Katt 03-27-04 175

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Tiggertramp 03-27-04 176

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-27-04 185

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-27-04 189

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... desert_rhino 03-28-04 207

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Tiggertramp 03-28-04 209

                                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-28-04 225

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-28-04 224

                                   To follow up on what JV said aethelstan 03-28-04 271

                                       Amen Tiggertramp 03-28-04 276

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... ginger 03-29-04 349

                                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... nailbone 03-29-04 367

                           *Hypothetical rant* Tiggertramp 03-28-04 197

                               RE: *Hypothetical rant* PepeLePew13 03-28-04 200

                                   RE: *Hypothetical rant* Tiggertramp 03-28-04 206

                                       RE: *Hypothetical rant* RudyRules 03-28-04 221

                                           RE: *Hypothetical rant* Tiggertramp 03-28-04 226

                                               RE: *Hypothetical rant* RudyRules 03-28-04 228

                                               RE: *Hypothetical rant* nailbone 03-29-04 314

                                                   RE: *Hypothetical rant* aethelstan 03-29-04 320

                                                       RE: *Hypothetical rant* AZ_Leo 03-29-04 321

                                                           RE: *Hypothetical rant* TechNoir 03-29-04 336

                                                               What can happen without education AZ_Leo 03-29-04 340

                                                                   RE: What can happen without educati... landruajm 03-29-04 341

                                                                       RE: What can happen without educati... mistofleas 03-29-04 353

                                                                           RE: What can happen without educati... landruajm 03-29-04 354

                                                                               RE: What can happen without educati... mistofleas 03-29-04 358

                                                                                   RE: What can happen without educati... landruajm 03-29-04 359

                                                                                   RE: What can happen without educati... nailbone 03-29-04 368

                                           RE: *Hypothetical rant* mistofleas 03-28-04 229

                                               RE: *Hypothetical rant* RudyRules 03-28-04 235

                                                   RE: *Hypothetical rant* mistofleas 03-28-04 237

                                                       RE: *Hypothetical rant* RudyRules 03-28-04 240

                                   RE: *Hypothetical rant* RudyRules 03-28-04 219

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Mizz Eve 03-28-04 205

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-28-04 230

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-28-04 232

                                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-28-04 238

                                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-28-04 241

                                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... LadyT 03-28-04 243

                                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Mizz Eve 03-29-04 297

                                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... RudyRules 03-29-04 366

                                   *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts s... mistofleas 03-28-04 236

                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... RudyRules 03-28-04 239

                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... TechNoir 03-28-04 242

                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... RudyRules 03-28-04 252

                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... TechNoir 03-28-04 259

                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... RudyRules 03-28-04 267

                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... TechNoir 03-28-04 269

                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... RudyRules 03-28-04 270

                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... TechNoir 03-28-04 272

                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... bebekid 03-28-04 273

                                                                       *boggle* I_Got_Nutn 03-28-04 278

                                                                           RE: *boggle* diamond 03-29-04 283

                                                                               RE: *boggle* mistofleas 03-29-04 285

                                                                                   RE: *boggle* diamond 03-29-04 287

                                                                                       RE: *boggle* mistofleas 03-29-04 289

                                                                               RE: *boggle* I_Got_Nutn 03-29-04 291

                                                                                   RE: *boggle* mistofleas 03-29-04 292

                                                                                   RE: *boggle* diamond 03-29-04 294

                                                                                       RE: *boggle* mistofleas 03-29-04 295

                                                                           RE: *boggle* TechNoir 03-29-04 299

                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... RudyRules 03-29-04 284

                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... mistofleas 03-29-04 286

                                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... TechNoir 03-29-04 298

                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... mistofleas 03-29-04 302

                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... AZ_Leo 03-29-04 296

                                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... RudyRules 03-29-04 306

                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... AZ_Leo 03-29-04 308

                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... RudyRules 03-29-04 369

                                                                       Link aethelstan 03-29-04 304

                                                                           RE: Link mistofleas 03-29-04 309

                                                                               RE: Link AZ_Leo 03-29-04 310

                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... DoodleBug 03-29-04 307

                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... diamond 03-29-04 315

                                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... nailbone 03-29-04 316

                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... GlassJax 03-29-04 318

                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... I_Got_Nutn 03-29-04 343

                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... diamond 03-29-04 344

                                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... I_Got_Nutn 03-29-04 345

                                                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... RudyRules 03-29-04 373

                                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... diamond 03-29-04 378

                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... TechNoir 03-29-04 370

                                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... GlassJax 03-29-04 317

                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... Drive My Car 03-29-04 319

                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... nailbone 03-29-04 324

                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... diamond 03-29-04 335

                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... mistofleas 03-29-04 337

                                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... landruajm 03-29-04 338

                                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... diamond 03-29-04 339

                                                                                       .02 J I M B O 03-29-04 352

                                                                                           RE: .03 true 03-29-04 355

                                                                                               RE: .03 J I M B O 03-29-04 357

                                                                                               RE: .03 Lisapooh 03-29-04 380

                                                                                                   RE: .03 J I M B O 03-29-04 382

                                                                                                       RE: .03 Lisapooh 03-29-04 386

                                                                                                           RE: .03 DoodleBug 03-29-04 392

                                                                                                           RE: .03 J I M B O 03-29-04 393

                                                                                                   RE: .03 true 03-29-04 383

                                                                                                       RE: .03 Lisapooh 03-29-04 388

                                                                                           RE: .02 Tiggertramp 03-29-04 356

                                                                                               RE: .02 J I M B O 03-29-04 362

                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... nailbone 03-29-04 371

                                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... Lisapooh 03-29-04 377

                                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... mistofleas 03-29-04 322

                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... landruajm 03-29-04 325

                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... mistofleas 03-29-04 326

                                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... landruajm 03-29-04 327

                                                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... mistofleas 03-29-04 331

                                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... landruajm 03-29-04 333

                                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... mistofleas 03-29-04 334

                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... nailbone 03-29-04 328

                                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... landruajm 03-29-04 329

                                                                                               RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... nailbone 03-29-04 330

                                                                                                   RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... landruajm 03-29-04 332

                                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... Devious Weasel 03-29-04 360

                                                                                                           RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... landruajm 03-29-04 361

                                                                                                       RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKat... nailbone 03-29-04 374

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Spidey 03-28-04 193

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-28-04 201

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Spidey 03-28-04 203

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-28-04 210

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... LadyT 03-28-04 253

               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... LadyT 03-28-04 250

                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Spidey 03-28-04 257

                       RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-28-04 258

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Spidey 03-28-04 261

                               RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... TechNoir 03-28-04 262

                                   Payback swift, fierce for those who... AZ_Leo 03-28-04 263

                                       Clarke AyaK 03-29-04 346

                                   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-29-04 293

                           RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... LadyT 03-28-04 266

                               You ladies are freaking me out! Tiggertramp 03-28-04 274

                                   RE: You ladies are freaking me out! TechNoir 03-28-04 277

                                   RE: You ladies are freaking me out! mistofleas 03-28-04 279

                                   RE: You ladies are freaking me out! Spidey 03-28-04 281

                                       RE: You ladies are freaking me out! mistofleas 03-28-04 282

                                           RE: You ladies are freaking me out! Tiggertramp 03-29-04 288

                                               RE: You ladies are freaking me out! mistofleas 03-29-04 290

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Mizz Eve 03-27-04 152

Here's some more to chew on. RudyRules 03-28-04 255

   RE: Here's some more to chew on. TechNoir 03-28-04 260

       RE: Here's some more to chew on. RudyRules 03-28-04 268

   Wow DSpunk 03-29-04 323

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... desert_rhino 03-29-04 300

   RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... mistofleas 03-29-04 301

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... Emily RugBurn 03-29-04 347

   Welcome Emily! aethelstan 03-29-04 348

       RE: Welcome Emily! Emily RugBurn 03-29-04 351

           RE: Welcome Emily! Tiggertramp 03-29-04 365

Swoop DSpunk 03-29-04 350

lock please dabo 03-29-04 381

   i lvoe these! J I M B O 03-29-04 384

       RE: i lvoe these! Lisapooh 03-29-04 387

           BANG! dabo 03-29-04 389

               Feel free to... true 03-29-04 391

               RE: BANG! Lisapooh 03-29-04 394

RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of... FarmBoy 03-29-04 385

Locking AyaK 03-29-04 390

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Messages in this topic

Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 04:14 PM (EST)

1. "Great."

Now the abortion laws are going straight to hell. I am so not pleased.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:19 PM (EST)

2. "RE: Great."

The measure is limited in scope, applying only to harm to a fetus while a federal crime is being committed against the pregnant mother, such as terrorist attacks, drug-related shootings or attacks on federal lands or military bases. (source Yahoo, underline mine)

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 04:21 PM (EST)

3. "RE: Great."

Sorry dude, it sets a bigger tone. It is just one step closer to saying "That Roe vs. Wade thing? Buh-bye"
Call me scared. Call me paranoid. Call me wantin' to move to Canada more all the freakin' time.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:26 PM (EST)

6. "RE: Great."

While I understand the concern that it may be paving the way to future legislation involving Roe, that alone doesn’t convince me that the ‘right’ thing shouldn’t be done. There was a case in Ohio (I think) where a man and woman were going home from the hospital after a checkup, and a carjacker on the run ran into them. Neither driver nor passenger had serious injuries, but the child/fetus/cellular blob died. Now you mean to tell me there wasn’t a ‘death’ involved?

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samiam 5976 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:27 PM (EST)

8. "RE: Great."

Yes, but would that even qualify? Is a car accident a federal crime?

My jaw dropped reading this story.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 04:30 PM (EST)

10. "RE: Great."

I think carjacking is, actually, though I'm not completely sure.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:36 PM (EST)

13. "RE: Great."

It was just an example of how 'obvious' it should be IMO to make that sort of thing equal to killing their one-year old.
BTW-without knowing the semantics in the alternative, what difference would it make to have the fetus labeled a person or not? What does the 'one victim crime' term mean?

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 04:47 PM (EST)

21. "RE: Great."

BTW-without knowing the semantics in the alternative, what difference would it make to have the fetus labeled a person or not?
It makes a world of difference. As a one-victim crime, it's a crime against the woman only. Causing a woman to lose a pregnancy is an injury to that woman.
By giving the fetus the same status as an actual person, you open the door to allowing the courts to strike down Roe in its entirety, because upholding both this law and Roe would be inconsistent. The fetus is either a person or it's not. This law says it is. Roe says it's not. When it gets challenged and makes its way to the Supreme Court (and I guarantee you it will), the court will have to decide one way or the other.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:50 PM (EST)

22. "RE: Great."

When it gets challenged and makes its way to the Supreme Court (and I guarantee you it will), the court will have to decide one way or the other.
Maybe that's a good thing?

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 04:54 PM (EST)

25. "RE: Great."

No, it's not.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:05 PM (EST)

40. "RE: Great."

Why not?

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 05:14 PM (EST)

55. "RE: Great."

Well, it kind of chafes when other people who are not me want to decide what I can or cannot do with my own body.

Maybe I should just stop thinking for myself and let other people make all my decisions for me. It would be much less stressful, I imagine.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:17 PM (EST)

57. "RE: Great."

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:18 PM (EST)
But what if the Court rules in favor of Roe, rather than this new deal. Wouldn't it be better to have it decided once and for all?

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

It's all about the Kool-Aid

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:22 PM (EST)

66. "RE: Great."

"Decided once and for all" is bull. It's already BEEN decided, in a landmark case named "Roe vs. Wade." This isn't about deciding once and for all, it's about taking yet another frontal assault on the already decided precedent of Roe.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:23 PM (EST)

67. "RE: Great."

Ah, I see.

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 09:20 PM (EST)

178. "RE: Great."

"Decided once and for all" is bull. It's already BEEN decided, in a landmark case named "Roe vs. Wade." This isn't about deciding once and for all, it's about taking yet another frontal assault on the already decided precedent of Roe.
We need more of these frontal assaults on the hideous procedure known as abortion.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:05 AM (EST)

212. "RE: Great."

We never need MORE fascism.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:00 PM (EST)

216. "RE: Great."

I fully agree, we certainly do not need more fascism.
I would hardly call protecting the life of unborn babies to be fascism.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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Devious Weasel 18756 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:17 PM (EST)

58. "RE: Great."

And we all know how painful the chafe can be...
I think you should have pasta tonight, by the way.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:55 PM (EST)

26. "RE: Great."

But would that 'injury to the woman' be treated as severely as killing her newborn infant? And if someone killed my pregnant wife, did they kill her and also add an 'injury'? Or did they take my wife and child? I would want justice for both. As long as the penalties are the same, then I'd have no problem with the one-person injury version.

And this is one more reason I hate the partisan polarization in this country. That people would potentially vote against this because of fear of 'future' legislation is saddening. We can protect a woman's right to choose and still give justice to expecting families. At least we 'should' be able to...

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:01 PM (EST)

36. "RE: Great."

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:03 PM (EST)
But isn't a main difference between this bill and Roe is that the mother can decided to terminate a pregnancy under Roe. This bill says it's a crime for another person - against the mother's wishes - to kill the fetus. IMO, this does not damage a woman's right to choose.

Snazzy new sigpic by Slice
In the Peterson's case, Connor could have lived on his own. Laci was nearly full-term. It most certainly was a double homicide.
ETA: If someone were to kill me now, while I am pregnant, they are killing TWO people.

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Devious Weasel 18756 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:04 PM (EST)

38. "RE: Great."

But once you've legally established the precedent that the fetus is a life of its own, it kind of dooms Roe.

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:20 PM (EST)

65. "RE: Great."

And honestly? I'm not upset by that, but I can see how some people would be.

Snazzy new sigpic by Slice

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:21 PM (EST)

98. "RE: Great."

If someone were to kill me now, while I am pregnant, they are killing TWO people.
You say this as if it were fact. But it isn't. It is what you believe. I do not share your belief. And I am not pleased about the notion that the law protects your beliefs and not mine.

© J Slice, who rocks
"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words" Proverbs 23-9

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 07:24 PM (EST)

99. "*thud*"

where ya been?

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:34 PM (EST)

105. "RE: *thud*"

Getting a massage, making dinner, playing with my doggy.

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 07:39 PM (EST)

106. "and now..."

I'm jealous. I'm out... have a great weekend.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 04:29 PM (EST)

9. "RE: Great."

The right thing to do would have been to approve the amendment that introduced language defining it as a one-victim crime.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:42 PM (EST)

15. "RE: Great."

And on that we must agree to disagree, cuz I think it's a two-victim crime.

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 08:17 PM (EST)

122. "RE: Great."

Sure you think that. But you're never gonna be pregnant.
I, on the other hand, think it is a two victim crime when there are two separate victims. And that occurs when the baby is alive apart from my body. This "potential" person thing is just political clap trap. Any cell in my body is a "potential" person. Why not protect each and every one of them as if it is a distinct child? Because it doesn't make any sense is why.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 10:08 PM (EST)

186. "RE: Great."

Any cell in your body is a potential person?!?
*THUD*
IMO that is a bit absurd. A red blood cell or hair cell is clearly different than a fertilized egg or fetus (many different cells organized into one uniquely new human body). Additionally, the fetus contains the DNA of two people, your other cells do not.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 10:24 PM (EST)

190. "RE: Great."

Cloning ... any cell.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:02 PM (EST)

217. "RE: Great."

That's what I figured you meant, BUT any cell that is NOT yet cloned is NOT the same as a fetus and I think you understand that.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:22 PM (EST)

223. "RE: Great."

I understand that calling two cells an unborn baby and calling one cell a cell is arbitrary.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:40 PM (EST)

227. "RE: Great."

*Thud*

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 10:42 AM (EST)

311. "RE: Great."

*boggle*

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 11:14 AM (EST)

312. "RE: Great."

You keep *boggling* and *thudding* but Techs point is not being acknowledged.
Is it a "baby" at 2 cells? 3 cells? 20 cells? When? If it's 20 cells, then it's not at 19? 2 cells yes, but 1 cell no?
If you're going to get that far into what's a "fetus" and what's a "baby" then let's hear it. How many cells makes a "baby"?

--also wants to know how many licks it takes to get to the middle of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop but that's for another thread

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 11:22 AM (EST)

313. "RE: Great."

And that's what needs to be defined. And hasn't it already, by saying the third tri-mester or something? Of course, this is a country that can't even agree on what the definition "is" is.

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

Three. It takes three licks to get to the middle of a Tootsie Roll Pop.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:15 PM (EST)

363. "RE: Great."

Misto: When the egg is fertilized and contains dna from both partners.
Tootsie roll question: 1,407 depending on the amount of saliva and how hard you lick!

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:56 PM (EST)

379. "Fetal Development"

Here are some developmental milestones (relying on my memory here):
After an egg is fertilized, it is called an embryo until 12 weeks. The heart begins to beat at around 5 weeks. By the beginning of the second trimester (14 weeks), the embryo now has all of its parts and is called a fetus. The organs and muscles begin to funtion. A heartbeat can be detected using a doppler. In the following weeks, the baby continues to gain weight and increase in size.

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LadyT 5567 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:36 PM (EST)

244. "RE: Great."

and to further that argument, why don't we count all the eggs in my ovaries? If I were to get killed, we can count all those eggs and have my eggs be considered victims too.
Roe V Wade took care of abortion. It's legal. You don't like it, wear a condom.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:58 PM (EST)

248. "RE: Great."

Eggs are not fetuses.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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LadyT 5567 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:15 PM (EST)

254. "RE: Great."

I realize that, but hey, we gotta start somewhere

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:29 PM (EST)

256. "RE: Great."

Eggs are not fetuses
But they are potential fetuses aren't they? All it takes is one lucky shot. (and hopefully dinner before)
So it goes to say that if legislation is passed that can dictate a woman cannot abort an unwanted pregnancy there is real concern that legislation could be passed that dictates what happens to eggs as well.
It is a legitimate concern.

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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 05:25 PM (EST)

264. "RE: Great."

>All it takes is one lucky shot. (and hopefully
>dinner before)
And don't forget the bourbon.
Heck, I think everyone in this thread could use a shot (or five) of bourbon and just be merry.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 05:57 PM (EST)

265. "RE: Great."

Heck, I think everyone in this thread could use a shot (or five) of bourbon and just be merry.
You mean if I take a shot I have to be Merry? But I don't wanna be Merry, my name is Stephanie!
*cracks herself up*

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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
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03-28-04, 10:24 PM (EST)

275. "RE: Great."

You're Steph-funny!

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:12 PM (EST)

280. "RE: Great."

You're Steph-funny
That's what my mom calls me. Of course it's usually said sarcastically after I've asked her for money.

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:06 PM (EST)

42. "Can I get an"

IMO?

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:08 PM (EST)

46. "RE: Can I get an"

Come on now, you shouldn't be expectin much of those on either side of this here debate.

IMO

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:10 PM (EST)

49. "RE: Can I get an"

Well, I did say "I think". Same thing, right?

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:17 PM (EST)

59. "It was in reference to "

Post #9.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
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03-26-04, 05:19 PM (EST)

61. "RE: It was in reference to "

Ah.

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:31 PM (EST)

74. "RE: It was in reference to "

Not to say you shouldn't hold yourself to the same standard... I think the biggest problem we get into in these discussions (goodness knows I do it myself A LOT) is stating our opinions as fact. No matter how sure we happen to be about a particular fact, principle, or opinion, stating it bluntly without leaving room for dissenting opinions only alienates people.
Even if I *know* someone is wrong (difficult to really know for sure), far be it from me to judge them for their opinion... and it often comes across that way when opinions are stated forcefully. I haven't walked a mile in your shoes, or diamond's shoes, or TiggerT's shoes, or Jimbo's shoes (Thank goodness... talk about chafing)... It's inappropriate for me to presume to decry their stance or their feelings. Don't mitigate your beliefs, but remember that we all come from different places and deserve the space to figure the world out on our own.
(Boner... this is just me being introspective... don't take it as a critique of any stances you've taken.)

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:36 PM (EST)

80. "RE: It was in reference to "

I don't take it that way. I agree. And I'm trying to be more careful of my phrasing.

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:43 PM (EST)

82. "Woohoo!"

Happy Friday!
Sliced.
2 Corinthians 4: 7-15
*waves*

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:19 PM (EST)

62. "RE: Can I get an"

But did you say "I think...IMO"? Cuz maybe in MY opinion you don't...

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:20 PM (EST)

64. "RE: Can I get an"

Pbbbbtttt!!

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

I do...sometimes...

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
03-26-04, 05:45 PM (EST)

83. "RE: Can I get an"

Can't you just assume the "IMO"? Everything posted here is individuals' opinions rather than statements of absolute truth that must be adhered to by everyone else, regardless of their "O".
The innate nature of posting on a message board is the expression of one's opinion. "IMO" is therefore a platitude and doesn't need to be spelled out.

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:57 PM (EST)

84. "From what I understand"

the Abortion topic has a long and storied tradition here at OT. I'm just trying to help defuse any potential blowups.
I know that I was taken aback by diamond's post. It was extremely brief and blunt. Other members here have challenged me about similarly blunt posts recently, in trying to help me keep people from misunderstanding my intent.
But you'd be right under most circumstances.
*waves*

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 06:33 PM (EST)

88. "RE: Can I get an"

Well, first of all, I hate the vast majority of those stupid internet acronyms, so I would never use anything like "IMO" (even typing in quotes like that wigs me out).
But if you mean you want me to state that it's my opinion? I think it's fairly obvious that just about everything here is an opinion. And you might notice that your friend Jimbo (in the message I was responding to) was the one who mentioned the "right" thing in the first place, so I was just responding to that. How come you didn't ask Jimbo to qualify his post?

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
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03-26-04, 06:56 PM (EST)

92. "Helloooo"

I think by putting the text version of 'air quotes' around the word right did just that.

Just sayin

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 07:02 PM (EST)

93. "RE: Helloooo"

Whatever, dude. The point was that it should have been obvious that it was an opinion, because a discussion of "the right thing to do" is by its very nature a discussion of opinions. It's understood. Qualifying it is redundant.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
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03-26-04, 07:05 PM (EST)

94. "RE: Helloooo"

I don't disagree.

Sheesh, you'd think this is an emotional topic or something...

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 07:13 PM (EST)

96. "RE: Can I get an"

Because yours put me off.
I'm not going to hide the fact that I disagree with your stance. When you talk about what's "right", that is a generic value judgment. I have really made efforts to curb comments that could be (mis)construed as judgmental... because people in this forum have asked me to.I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you. Personal wisdom: from other discussions, I've found that the brief posts containing extremely blunt or barbed statements are most misunderstood.
Just an aside... I can coexist with people who say things that are offensive to me. But I don't, as a rule, continue to interact with people who don't respect me and my right to have my own beliefs. It generally leads to destructive conversational patterns, an observation that seems to be proving out in this case.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:25 PM (EST)

101. "RE: Can I get an"

Dang, she's really bunched your proverbial panties eh?!

Probly get an angry email for that one...but if not, can I point out that nowhere in your post did the letters I, M or O appear together.

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Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
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03-26-04, 04:22 PM (EST)

4. "RE: Great."

This is true, but from the reports I was hearing this morning. It only opens the door for the anti-abortion peeps to try and have the scope taken out.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 04:23 PM (EST)

5. "RE: Great."

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 04:26 PM (EST)
Except that it defines the woman and the fetus as two separate people. An amendment to define it as a crime with only one victim was voted down. It's clearly designed as a vehicle to get Roe overturned.

Please someone tell me this is all just a bad nightmare.

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 04:27 PM (EST)

7. "RE: Great."

Oh no, it's real baby. To F%&king real for me thanks. I feel way horrible about this whole dang thing. I feel physically ill. The nation is going way past the conservative I can hardly breathe. And I thought I WAS conservative on many issues (except gays and abortion and freedom of religion) BUT come on!
Oh, I need some air.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:41 PM (EST)

14. "RE: Great."

Breathe sweetheart, breathe.
The problem is as diamond (and others) say(s) above. This law was clearly designed as a stepping stone to get Roe overturned. The intent in the very beginning may have been something else, but the actual end product is different and extremely scary.

--is saddened that there are too many sad things these days

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 04:45 PM (EST)

19. "RE: Great."

I am not really against the ORIGINAL intent. I'm not. But I do not trust the original intent at all. It is a tool to get abortion to be made illegal. It is a means to an end.
This opens a can of worms I would rather take fishing and let the fishes have a buffet.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:33 PM (EST)

11. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

well, this bill was introduced in the House five years ago
it was passed 61-38 in the Senate
I will admit, I have been following this bill closely only since it passed the House about a month ago. But since I was in favor of it, I immediately contacted my Senators to voice my support. What did you do?

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 04:42 PM (EST)

16. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I contacted my people letting them know I was against it. I am against this kind of legislation because of what I know it will end up leading to. I am politically active. I am not an armchair whiner.
I email, call, write letters, whatever it takes to get my voice heard. I love it when I get personal letters in return not just the generated form letter stuff. Thanks for asking!

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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Breezy 18380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:51 PM (EST)

23. "Aren't you in MN?"

Looks like someone didn't listen to you. Bad Senators!

Just say no to trolls.

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 04:57 PM (EST)

31. "RE: Aren't you in MN?"

I know. They are SO on my list. And it is not the good one either.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:58 PM (EST)

32. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I'm glad you did!

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:06 PM (EST)

41. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:09 PM (EST)
See...I don't know if I should be offended as your original post seemed to have a chip on your shoulder..."This is what "I" did what did YOU do?" as if I b!tch but do nothing and have no right to. If you wanted to know if I wrote to my senators, you can just ask.
Forgive me if I took it the wrong way, but ya know, it came across that way.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:43 PM (EST)

17. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I immediately contacted my Senators to voice my support. What did you do?
Voiced my dissent.
Next question.

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FesterFan1 5947 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:47 PM (EST)

20. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Voted for 2 Senators and 1 Rep who all voted against it. They don't need much coaching from me on these type of issues.
Fester
It has made me admittedly lazy on the activist front, though.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 04:55 PM (EST)

27. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Same here.

Although why any of us should have to justify our actions with respect to this, I'm not sure.

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samiam 5976 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:01 PM (EST)

34. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Wrote letters. Allegedly, made my voice heard.
Which has absolutely no effect, because Virginia has two Republican senators who both voted for it.

I wonder sometimes why I even bother voting in a state where the outcome is essentially predetermined for the national/statewide offices.

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-26-04, 05:29 PM (EST)

71. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:30 PM (EST)
I wonder sometimes why I even bother voting in a state where the outcome is essentially predetermined for the national/statewide offices.
I used to think that about Arizona but then weird things seem to be happening. For one thing, we got a democratic governor in spite of Bush coming multiple times (5 or 6 I think) to campaign for the republican candidate.
And both Bush and Cheney keep showing up here for campaign speeches. Bush came today for his fourth visit in the last year and Cheney was here a few weeks ago. AZ is supposed to be a lock for them in November but the amount of attention they are paying to us makes me wonder if their polling is showing something that others aren't?
All I can say is all the media polls may come up conservative but all of the people I come in contact with are solidly anti-Bush. I'm thinking maybe we may not be such a lost cause and plan to actively work this time (already got 2 new democrats registered with promises to vote, didn't tell them how to vote but did express my opinion).
Edited for messed up formatting.

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:05 PM (EST)

39. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

My "what did you do" came across as a slam and I realize was uncalled for. Poor choice of a phrase on my part.
I'm glad that all of you voiced your opinion by some method, either by voting, writing letters, calling, etc.

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:08 PM (EST)

45. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Sorry, I was writing, as you were I think. So ignore post #41. K?

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:18 PM (EST)

60. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

absolutley
I was wrong

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:27 PM (EST)

102. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I had personal conversations with three senators, half a dozen representatives, wrote letters, and contributed money to the appropriate folks. However all of that assumes a fair system, and that no longer exists. After all, the President that will sign the bill into law was appointed by the Supreme Court.

© J Slice, who rocks
I did a lot more, but you don't need to know. And to challenge folk, as if you are the only one who behaved appropriately is uncool.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 09:30 PM (EST)

179. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Tech, Tech, Tech...
"Appointed by the Supreme Court"? This really is what the anti-Bush hatred is all about isn't it? The liberals cannot believe that Bush actually won the election. Every recount done in Florida by bothe conservative and LIBERAL news media showed that Bush DID win more votes than Gore in that state.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 10:16 PM (EST)

188. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

First, I am tired of being accused of anti-Bush hatred. That is just another of the Karl Rove talking points that are faithfully distributed by the Rush/Sean coalition. I don't hate Bush. In fact I don't think well enough of him to hate him.
Second, even if I did concede the recount nonsense that you espouse, you neglect to mention the tons of black folk who were turned away from the polls and not allowed to vote. It was a bloodless coup, plain and simple.

© J Slice, who rocks
"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words" Proverbs 23-9

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:04 PM (EST)

218. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

My apologies, I'm glad that you do not hate our President.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:17 PM (EST)

220. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

My apologies, I'm glad that you do not hate our President.
I do Rudy! Put up yer dukes!!

--is kidding about fighting Rudy of course, but not about Bush

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:50 PM (EST)

231. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Misto, can't we all just love everybody?

What the world needs now is love sweet love...

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:55 PM (EST)

233. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Misto, can't we all just love everybody?
If it were at all possible I'd be right with ya hon, alas I don't think the human race is ready yet to conceive of a world without animosity in one for or another.
Would I like that? Sure would. But Bush executed one of my friends...he's not on my list of favorite people.
You? You I still like!

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:57 PM (EST)

234. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Apparently not. In my view there are many folks who love the 'unborn baby' and hate the mother.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:00 PM (EST)

249. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I certainly hope you realize that I am not one of them.

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:35 PM (EST)

12. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 04:37 PM (EST)
Good. Glad to see MO senators supported it as well.

Snazzy new sigpic by Slice
The fact that some people aren't happy about this is MY nightmare.

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:25 PM (EST)

69. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

It isn't that they aren't happy aobut THIS, it's that they aren't happy that this will then be used as a vehicle to curtail civil rights and reproductive rights. I could see a case where women are institutionalized until their child is born arising from this, as well.
YMMV

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:31 PM (EST)

76. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

It just boggles my mind that there are those who do not think an unborn fetus is a person. Life (and I mean human life) begins at conception IMO. And I know we all have passionate reasons why we feel a certain way.... I respect those differing opinions. Just sayin' that I have my nightmares too.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:29 PM (EST)

103. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

It boggles your mind that not everyone agrees with you? Wow!!

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 11:17 PM (EST)

129. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Not really. I just have a difficult time understanding the other side. I'm sure you understand that.
I'd like to know if you have ever been pregnant, Tech. Just to know your point of reference.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 08:44 AM (EST)

136. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

No, I don't understand that you have a difficult time understanding the other side. I understand the other side very well. I just don't agree.
And frankly, whether or not I have been pregnant is not only irrelevant, but it is none of anybody's business.

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 09:57 AM (EST)

305. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

My apologies, Tech.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 12:22 PM (EST)

149. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I'd like to know if you have ever been pregnant, Tech. Just to know your point of reference.
Wow.
That is so not anyones business but Techs.

--would never in a million years even think of asking that question

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 01:37 PM (EST)

155. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Nor would I Ms. Fleas. Nor would I.

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smiley 2009 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"
03-27-04, 05:05 PM (EST)

164. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I heart Tech and Misto

*Proud Member of the RR/RW Old Fart Club*

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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 06:02 PM (EST)

169. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I *heart* Smiley, who *hearts* Tech and Misto.

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Bucky Katt 3146 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-27-04, 07:01 PM (EST)

171. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

For the record:
Bucky Katt? Never been pregnant.
"How 'bout a birdy? I got a little birdy right here."

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LadyT 5567 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:47 PM (EST)

246. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

>I'd like to know if you
>have ever been pregnant, Tech.
> Just to know your
>point of reference.
It is never anyone's business to even ask a question like that. Way too personal. It's Tech's private life and she shouldn't be made to feel that she has to answer a question like that.

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I_AM_HE 6123 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:33 PM (EST)

78. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I? *heart* Doodle and bawdy, et al.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 09:32 PM (EST)

180. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I *heart* doodle and bawdy and HE, et al

in Florida

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:45 PM (EST)

18. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Reckon why the guy from New Hampshire didn't vote?

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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LadyT 5567 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:48 PM (EST)

247. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

>Reckon why the guy from New
>Hampshire didn't vote?
cuz he's an idiot

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Bucky Katt 3146 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 04:53 PM (EST)

24. "Can we please, please, please...."

...turn this into a debate about abortion, because I am sure that if we all state our point of views that we will be able to come to a civil and rational consensus very quickly.
"How 'bout a birdy? I got a little birdy right here."

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 04:56 PM (EST)

28. "RE: Can we please, please, please...."

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 04:58 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 04:57 PM (EST)
Well, it is about abortion, because that is where this bill is headed, to overturn Roe vs. Wade.
And you are right dear Bucky, there is NO WAY to discuss this in a calm manner. We will not agree, and it makes people really hot under the collar, gets their undies in a bunch. I feel my way. Other people feel their way. I do not expect people who feel their way to feel my way etc. etc. I just wanted to express my displeasure. I have.
Either way, this will be a 300+ thread.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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Devious Weasel 18756 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:56 PM (EST)

29. "I Think "

Gay fetuses (fetii?) should be allowed to marry, at least until we find the WMD.

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:00 PM (EST)

33. "There you go again..."

Damn it Dweezil! You make me laugh so dang much!!! I lvoe you.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 05:02 PM (EST)

37. "RE: I Think "

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:03 PM (EST)
I'd go with fetuses myself. Fetii just looks too much like 'fetid', and we can't have that. And anyway, that's WMD associated program activities to you, buster. Or whatever they're calling them now. Who can remember these days?

Here's your problem, Weasel, you're just too serious sometimes.

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Devious Weasel 18756 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:06 PM (EST)

43. "RE: I Think "

Fetus Gay Marriage Program Related Activities?
I know. I need to work on that.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-26-04, 05:09 PM (EST)

47. "RE: I Think "

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:09 PM (EST)
Stop it already. I'm at least trying to maintain some semblance of professionalism here, and loud cackling doesn't help.

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Devious Weasel 18756 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:14 PM (EST)

56. "RE: I Think "

Maybe you need to see a doctor...

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:11 PM (EST)

51. "how bout"

Fetus And Gay Wives Entitlement Directive

Won't restate the acronym...

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:13 PM (EST)

53. "RE: I Think "

My abs already hurt, and you are NOT helping.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:08 PM (EST)

44. "RE: I Think "

I want so badly to be Dweezil!!

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

To dream the impossible dream...

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 09:36 PM (EST)

181. "RE: Can we please, please, please...."

Bucky, You crack me up!

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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FesterFan1 5947 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 04:57 PM (EST)

30. "Here's what I don't get"

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:00 PM (EST)
How do we draw the line at what actually causes the death of the fetus? Hypothetical:
Let's say a pregnant woman is at a bank when it is robbed. She sustains no injuries, aside from traumatic stress. 3 months later she has a miscarriage. Can it be determined that the stress of the robbery 'caused' the miscarriage? Is there a statute of limitations on time between incident and injury?
Timing may not be the only consideration here. There are many things that cause pregnancies to end. What happens in situations where there's not an obvious cause and effect relationship?
Fester

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:01 PM (EST)

35. "RE: Here's what I don't get"

that's a really good point- I don't know

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samiam 5976 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:10 PM (EST)

48. "RE: Here's what I don't get"

Well, that's part of the problem with the bill.
Also, it's well-known that the chances of naturally miscarrying is significantly higher in the first trimester, and VERY often, doctors have no idea what causes them. Autopsies aren't generally done. So how does one prove that the miscarriage is directly caused by a crime?
Would it matter if the woman/perpetrator didn't know she was pregnant at the time? How would this affect prosecution?
It also puts the pregnant woman in the position of having to possibly defend every action she takes during her pregnancy, to ensure that she can't be accused of doing something to end the fetus' life. In the above case with the carjacking, the carjacker's defense could be that it wasn't his fault, it was something SHE did that caused the miscarriage.
There are all kinds of slippery slopes to this Act, and I don't like any of them.

One victim, one crime.

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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:10 PM (EST)

50. "I wish we would stop naming acts after people."

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:10 PM (EST)
It is a cheap tug on the heart strings to call this the "Laci and Conner Act." There is no way to pass this without essentially characterizing abortion as murder (recognizing that to some of you, it is). Passage of this, no matter how we may approve of the specific application in the Pederson trial, is a huge setback for pro choice Americans. It leads to much bigger issues than justice for Laci and Conner.
Acts should be seperate from the people who inspired them; heck, Roe wants "Roe v. Wade" repealed now. If we'd named Megan's law after Steven Staynor, we'd probably regret it after his brother dismembered the tourists in Yosemite.

"Any government that would deny a gay man bridal registry is fascist." Margaret Cho

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Devious Weasel 18756 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:13 PM (EST)

52. "RE: I wish we would stop naming acts after people."

And don’t get me started on what Murphy thinks about that whole “If anything can go wrong, it will” thing…

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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:23 PM (EST)

68. "RE: I wish we would stop naming acts after people."

I like the UK version: Sod's Law.

"Any government that would deny a gay man bridal registry is fascist." Margaret Cho

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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:13 PM (EST)

54. "Key vote"

I just want to note that this bill was definitely intended to be linked to the abortion debate. Here's the proof:
Sen. Feinstein's amendment
This amendment defines an assault on a pregnant woman that causes termination of her pregnancy as a separate federal crime. Note, though, that it doesn't create a cause of action for the fetus but rather for the pregnant woman.
Vote on Sen. Feinstein's amendment Defeated 49-50 in a generally party-line vote where four pro-choice Republicans (Stowe, Collins, Chaffee, Spector) voted yes, and three pro-life Democrats (Nelson, Miller, Breaux) voted no.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:32 PM (EST)

77. "RE: Key vote"

Link to the Seinfeld amendment didn't work for me.
So, if the cause for action is the mother's, what happens when mom and fetus are killed? Can the father pursue the same level of justice as with the bill that passed?

Similar question in my post 26...waiting for reply by anyone who knows the answer.

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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 08:50 PM (EST)

125. "Sorry "

Whoops, the Library of Congress Web site wouldn't keep the link active! OK, then, I'll reprint the bill here.
SA 2858. Mrs. FEINSTEIN submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by her to the bill H.R. 1997, to amend title 18, United States Code, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice to protect unborn children from assault and murder, and for other purposes; which was ordered to lie on the table; as follows:
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the ``Motherhood Protection Act''.
SEC. 2. PROTECTION OF PREGNANT WOMEN.
(a) IN GENERAL.--Title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after chapter 90 the following:
"CHAPTER 90A--PROTECTION OF PREGNANT WOMEN
"Sec. 1841. Causing termination of pregnancy or interruption of the normal course of pregnancy.
"(a)(1) Any person who engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the termination of a pregnancy or the interruption of the normal course of pregnancy, including termination of the pregnancy other than by live birth is guilty of a separate offense under this section.
"(2)(A) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided for that conduct under Federal law had that injury or death occurred to the pregnant woman.
"(B) An offense under this section does not require proof that--
"(i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or
"(ii) the defendant intended to cause the termination or interruption of the normal course of pregnancy.
"(C) If the person engaging in the conduct thereby intentionally causes or attempts to cause the termination of or the interruption of the pregnancy, that person shall be punished as provided under section 1111, 1112, or 1113, as applicable, for intentionally terminating or interrupting the pregnancy or attempting to do so, instead of the penalties that would otherwise apply under subparagraph (A).
"(D) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the death penalty shall not be imposed for an offense under this section.
"(b) The provisions referred to in subsection (a) are the following:
"(1) Sections 36, 37, 43, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 229, 242, 245, 247, 248, 351, 831, 844(d), 844(f), 844(h)(1), 844(i), 924(j), 930, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1116, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1153(a), 1201(a), 1203, 1365(a), 1501, 1503, 1505, 1512, 1513, 1751, 1864, 1951, 1952(a)(1)(B), 1952(a)(2)(B), 1952(a)(3)(B), 1958, 1959, 1992, 2113, 2114, 2116, 2118, 2119, 2191, 2231, 2241(a), 2245, 2261, 2261A, 2280, 2281, 2332, 2332a, 2332b, 2340A, and 2441 of this title.
"(2) Section 408(e) of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 848(e)).
"(3) Section 202 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2283).
"(c) Subsection (a) does not permit prosecution--
"(1) for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law in a medical emergency;
"(2) for conduct relating to any medical treatment of the pregnant woman, or matters related to the pregnancy; or
"(3) of any woman with respect to her pregnancy.''.
(b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT.--The table of chapters for part 1 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the item relating to chapter 90 the following:
"90A. Protection of pregnant women
"Sec. 1841."
SEC. 3. MILITARY JUSTICE SYSTEM.
(a) PROTECTION OF PREGNANT WOMEN.--Subchapter X of chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (the Uniform Code of Military Justice), is amended by inserting after section 919 (article 119) the following:"§Sec. 919a. Art. 119a. Causing termination of pregnancy or interruption of normal course of pregnancy
"(a)(1) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the termination of a pregnancy or the interruption of the normal course of pregnancy, including termination of the pregnancy other than by live birth, is guilty of a separate offense under this section.
"(2)(A) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment for that conduct under this chapter had that injury or death occurred to the pregnant woman.
"(B) An offense under this section does not require proof that--
"(i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or
"(ii) the defendant intended to cause the termination or interruption of the normal course of pregnancy.
"(C) If the person engaging in the conduct thereby intentionally causes or attempts to cause the termination of or the interruption of the pregnancy, that persons shall be punished as provided under section 918, 919, or 880 of this title (article 118, 119, or 80), as applicable, for intentionally causing the termination of or interruption of the pregnancy or attempting to do so, instead of the penalties that would otherwise apply under subparagraph (A).
"(D) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the death penalty shall not be imposed for an offense under this section.
"(b) The provisions referred to in subsection (a) are sections 918, 919(a), 919(b)(2), 920(a), 922, 924, 926, and 928 of this title (articles 111, 118, 119(a), 119(b)(2), 120(a), 122, 124, 126, and 128).
"(c) Subsection (a) does not permit prosecution--
"(1) for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law in a medical emergency;
"(2) for conduct relating to any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or matters relating to her pregnancy; or
"(3) of any woman with respect to her pregnancy."
(b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT.--The table of sections at the beginning of subchapter X of chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (the Uniform Code of Military Justice), is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 919 the following:
"919a. Causing termination of pregnancy and termination of normal course of pregnancy."
******************
***********************
OK, and here's the bill that passed. See if you can see the ONLY difference -- the redefinition of the crime as injury to an "unborn child." Now tell me that this isn't simply related to abortion.
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004' or `Laci and Conner's Law'.
SEC. 2. PROTECTION OF UNBORN CHILDREN.
(a) IN GENERAL- Title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after chapter 90 the following:
`CHAPTER 90A--PROTECTION OF UNBORN CHILDREN
`Sec. 1841. Protection of unborn children.
`(a)(1) Whoever engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the death of, or bodily injury (as defined in section 1365) to, a child, who is in utero at the time the conduct takes place, is guilty of a separate offense under this section.
`(2)(A) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided under Federal law for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child's mother.
`(B) An offense under this section does not require proof that--
`(i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or
`(ii) the defendant intended to cause the death of, or bodily injury to, the unborn child.
`(C) If the person engaging in the conduct thereby intentionally kills or attempts to kill the unborn child, that person shall instead of being punished under subparagraph (A), be punished as provided under sections 1111, 1112, and 1113 of this title for intentionally killing or attempting to kill a human being.
`(D) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the death penalty shall not be imposed for an offense under this section.
`(b) The provisions referred to in subsection (a) are the following:
`(1) Sections 36, 37, 43, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 229, 242, 245, 247, 248, 351, 831, 844(d), (f), (h)(1),
and (i), 924(j), 930, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1116, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1153(a), 1201(a), 1203, 1365(a), 1501, 1503, 1505, 1512, 1513, 1751, 1864, 1951, 1952 (a)(1)(B), (a)(2)(B), and (a)(3)(B), 1958, 1959, 1992, 2113, 2114, 2116, 2118, 2119, 2191, 2231, 2241(a), 2245, 2261, 2261A, 2280, 2281, 2332, 2332a, 2332b, 2340A, and 2441 of this title.
`(2) Section 408(e) of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 848(e)).
`(3) Section 202 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2283).
`(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the prosecution--
`(1) of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf, has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law;
`(2) of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child; or
`(3) of any woman with respect to her unborn child.
`(d) As used in this section, the term `unborn child' means a child in utero, and the term `child in utero' or `child, who is in utero' means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.'.
(b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT- The table of chapters for part I of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the item relating to chapter 90 the following new item:
'1841'.
SEC. 3. MILITARY JUSTICE SYSTEM.
(a) PROTECTION OF UNBORN CHILDREN- Subchapter X of chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (the Uniform Code of Military Justice), is amended by inserting after section 919 (article 119) the following new section:
`Sec. 919a. Art. 119a. Death or injury of an unborn child
`(a)(1) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the death of, or bodily injury (as defined in section 1365 of title 18) to, a child, who is in utero at the time the conduct takes place, is guilty of a separate offense under this section and shall, upon conviction, be punished by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct, which shall be consistent with the punishments prescribed by the President for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child's mother.
`(2) An offense under this section does not require proof that--
`(i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or
`(ii) the accused intended to cause the death of, or bodily injury to, the unborn child.
`(3) If the person engaging in the conduct thereby intentionally kills or attempts to kill the unborn child, that person shall, instead of being punished under paragraph (1), be punished as provided under sections 880, 918, and 919(a) of this title (articles 80, 118, and 119(a)) for intentionally killing or attempting to kill a human being.
`(4) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the death penalty shall not be imposed for an offense under this section.
`(b) The provisions referred to in subsection (a) are sections 918, 919(a), 919(b)(2), 920(a), 922, 924, 926, and 928 of this title (articles 118, 119(a), 119(b)(2), 120(a), 122, 124, 126, and 128).
`(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the prosecution--
`(1) of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf, has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law;
`(2) of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child; or
`(3) of any woman with respect to her unborn child.
`(d) In this section, the term `unborn child' means a child in utero, and the term `child in utero' or `child, who is in utero' means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.'.
(b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT- The table of sections at the beginning of such subchapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 919 the following new item:
`919a. 119a. Death or injury of an unborn child.'

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MTW1961 4029 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-26-04, 07:11 PM (EST)

95. "RE: Hypothetical Part 2"

Another hypothetical:
A pregnant woman is waiting her "turn" at the abortion clinic when she is assaulted by a militant Right to Life group. Her unborn fetus dies as a result. Murder or tragic irony?

Handcrafted by RollDdice!
I apologize for the tastelessness of this post. Truly.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 09:45 PM (EST)

183. "RE: Hypothetical Part 2"

Perhaps she would take no action as she was waiting in line to execute her child.
If she takes no action, there is no case, therefore the "militant right to life group" would get off scot free.
Except, since a "militant right to life group" caused this death, she would probably take action to have them prosecuted at the urging of the "fanatical pro-abortionists" who were just about to do the same thing, only legally!

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 10:15 PM (EST)

187. "RE: Hypothetical Part 2"

Hey Rudy...check your PM.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 00:33 AM (EST)

192. "RE: Hypothetical Part 2"

Um, I think she can pursue assault charges against the "militant right to life group" (why no quotes around "execute" though? Hmm.), they did after all, attack her.

Ronald Reagan said ketchup was a vegetable, what's your point?

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 10:35 AM (EST)

202. "RE: Hypothetical Part 2"

You must not have gotten the information from the posts further down spidey. I discovered last night that my body doesn't belong to me, therefore I must assume that this hypothetical woman's body doesn't belong to her either so she wouldn't have any right to pursue any charges against people who attacked her...for her own good.
Here honey, just put on this nice little "red" outfit we've got for you, sit in your room and wait for the others to tell you what to do. Prepare to gestate spidey, it's your civic duty.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 10:45 AM (EST)

204. "RE: Hypothetical Part 2"

Prepare to gestate spidey, it's your civic duty.
Been there, done that. Dr. assures me it can't happen again.
Maybe THAT legal medical procedure will get me shipped off to shovel nuclear waste for the rest of my life.

Lonely here on Sunday, huh?

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 10:54 AM (EST)

208. "RE: Hypothetical Part 2"

Oh yeah, you're so going to the Colonies spidey!

--is never lonely when spidey is around

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:20 PM (EST)

63. "comparison to RICO..."

Sorry, just popping in from my friend's laptop...
The difference between this, which will be used to overturn Roe, and this by prosecuting doctors for performing abortions (remember all those records that are being "acquired?"), and the RICO statutes, which are now used for prosecuting every damn crime involving money, property, or whatever, is that the RICO laws weren't originally intended to screw up the entire justice system. This one, apparently, *is* and always has been intended as a vehicle to wipe out Roe.
I do like the catchy, clever packaging, though. Calling it Lacy and Connor's Law is very clever misdirection. Really.
{vomit}
-- JV

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:29 PM (EST)

70. "RE: comparison to RICO..."

How the crap did you fit into your friend's laptop?

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:30 PM (EST)

73. "RE: comparison to RICO..."

The kung fu is really helping my weight and balance issues.

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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:30 PM (EST)

72. "Disagree"

Well, that's a little too sinister take, JV.
Actually, this law says that it can't be used to prosecute abortions. What it's really intended to do is to build up a body of law recognizing fetal rights, which a subsequent Supreme Court could use to overturn Roe.
And doctors cannot be prosecuted under RICO for having performed abortions, since any action legal at the time it was taken is not actionable under RICO. Also, the person who wrote the RICO law (a Democrat who said that he was thinking of the Nixon White House when drafting the law) said that he DID intend for just about everything to be actionable under RICO.
I agree with your comment about misdirection and spin, though. If the intent was simply to protect the unborn, then the bill as amended by the Feinstein Amendment could have passed 100-0 with none of this controversy.

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:34 PM (EST)

79. "RE: Disagree"

sorry, didn't mean to imply that this would involve the RICO at all... The administration is looking for cases where doctors preformed late-term abortions already, and I feel that these will be the test cases for the "laci and conner" law, once they find some. Since late-term abortions are a federal crime now, no?

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 05:31 PM (EST)

75. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

quoting from H.R.1997:
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the prosecution--
(1) of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf, has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law;
(2) of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child; or
(3) of any woman with respect to her unborn child
Also, the bill specifically prohibits the death penalty in cases of offense.

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 05:41 PM (EST)

81. "Yeah, but"

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 05:41 PM (EST)
What people are saying is that it still establishes fetal rights to a certain degree. Enough to act as a lever against the whole legal basis for abortion... that a fetus is not a person entitled to the same rights under the Constitution that everyone else is... most notably, "life".
*waves to JV* Glad you could stop by. Could you smell this thread even on vacay?

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
03-26-04, 06:07 PM (EST)

85. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I don't even know where to start. I'm appalled.
I just want to address one thing. Why is the death penalty excluded as a possible sentence here? If damaging a foetus is worthy of statutory attention, why disallow the full extent of American justice? Could it be because even the Republicans have noticed how hypocritical it would be to kill foetus-injurers, while at the same time stripping a woman of the right to kill her foetus?
Can someone explain to me why the death penalty is OK under any circumstances, when apparently killing a foetus is so morally reprehensible? Anybody? Bueller...?

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 06:17 PM (EST)

86. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I, personally, agree with you, Loquatrix... I'm not a fan of capital punishment (unless warranted by someone who could not be captured without killing/maiming others in the process).

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 06:21 PM (EST)

87. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Well duh. Of course the pro-lifers who are please with this think it’s hypocritical…that’s why they want Roe overturned. STILL, if someone ended my wife’s pregnancy, regardless of injury to her, I’d want justice done for the death of my child. Is that SO unreasonable?

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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 06:47 PM (EST)

89. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 06:47 PM (EST)
It's human. Which is why we want a jury system and not good old eye-for-an-eye; I was against the 3-strikes law but understood why the Polly Klaas' father lobbied it.
Laws should never be enacted in response to specific tragedies, because they create a much larger web of consequence. However, I think some supporters of the "Laci and Conner" act are very interested in effecting such larger-range consequences.

Of course I would want to kill anyone who harmed, say, my child. Which is why I would not want ME drafting the law.
"Any government that would deny a gay man bridal registry is fascist." Margaret Cho

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 06:53 PM (EST)

90. "Sorry for the confusion"

I wasn't referring to the death penalty issue. Just the perplexing place it must put fair-minded pro-choice advocates who know the intent of the law is sound, but see more troubling consequences stemming from it.
Still don't understand what difference it would've made if the "one-victim" version had passed.

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bondt007 3413 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 07:46 PM (EST)

113. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Killing a "foetus" (cute) vs killing a killer? What did the baby do to you? Besides live? Did he or she hurt anyone? Did the killer?

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MTW1961 4029 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-26-04, 06:55 PM (EST)

91. "Question for those opposed:"

I understand many are opposed to this because they are worried about it leading to the reversal of Roe v. Wade; in other words, you are worried bout the slippery slope this is leading us down.
How does this differ from the slippery slope argument offered by the opponents of gay marriage? During that debate, people were adamant about not redefining marriage, saying "what's next? Will we allow siblings to marry? Can I marry my daughter/son?"
Why in this case is the "slippery slope" a real threat and in the other case it is not?

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 07:17 PM (EST)

97. "Oh no"

you DI'INT?!?!

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MTW1961 4029 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-26-04, 07:25 PM (EST)

100. "RE: Oh no"

LAST EDITED ON 03-26-04 AT 07:29 PM (EST)
No, actually, I'm dead serious, and I'm trying to reconcile in my mind how people's thought processes are working here. I understand it's an emotional subject...
To all my fellow OT peeps: I'm not trying to inflame, I just really want to know. *the tone of my voice is calm and peaceful*
ETA: WCPosse sig

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:39 PM (EST)

107. "RE: Oh no"

Ok. I oppose it on its merits. Not because it is a slippery slope. I mean, why don't we prosecute folks separately for injuring my eye and my arm and my breast and my toe and my fetus and my earlobe? Six offenses, right?

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:51 PM (EST)

115. "RE: Oh no"

But those all have your DNA, embryo doesn't...plus, few people set up nurseries in their homes, buy a crib (with the cute little mobile), have showers, pick names, start savings accounts, and take classes to prepare for their eye, arm, breast, toe or earlobe.

Even though you obviously feel convinced it is your body, I find it difficult to believe that if you wanted a child, were 6 months pregnant and someone ended your pregnancy through a violent action that you would treat that injury the EXACT same way you'd treat a stab in the butt. HOWEVER, if you say that's the case I'll take your word for it.

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bebekid 1621 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
03-26-04, 08:09 PM (EST)

117. "RE: Oh no"

>Even though you obviously feel convinced
>it is your body, I
>find it difficult to believe
>that if you wanted a
>child, were 6 months pregnant
>and someone ended your pregnancy
>through a violent action that
>you would treat that injury
>the EXACT same way you'd
>treat a stab in the
>butt. HOWEVER, if you say
>that's the case I'll take
>your word for it.
Jimbo, this is classic!

So absurd, it made me laugh out loud.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 08:12 PM (EST)

118. "RE: Oh no"

Well of course I wouldn't ... but I wouldn't treat the loss of an eye the same as the loss of a toe either.
And people create nurseries, start savings accounts, and name imaginary fetuses. Emotional attachment to a body part shouldn't give it separate status under the law, you know?

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 11:37 PM (EST)

130. "RE: Oh no"

What exactly do you mean by "imaginary fetuses"?

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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 07:17 AM (EST)

135. "RE: Oh no"

LAST EDITED ON 03-27-04 AT 11:57 AM (EST)
I can't speak for Tech, but I think she's referring to those who are planning an addition to the family and have a bunch of things in place even before the fetus is conceived.
Take Pene and I... we had a name for Pippy picked out even before he was conceived.
Edited because it's Saturday and I'm not in my 'teacher mode' else I'd remember the "i before e rule except after c" stuff.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 08:46 AM (EST)

137. "RE: Oh no"

Exactly. Thank you Pepe. I think lots of people do that ...

© J Slice, who rocks
"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words" Proverbs 23-9

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-26-04, 07:30 PM (EST)

104. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

In my opinion, the difference is in your last line. As far as I have heard there isn't any coordinated, well funded and sometimes frighteningly adamant group out there actively pushing for sibling marriages. However, as AyaK pointed out, there is a coordinated, well funded, sometimes frighteningly adamant group pushing us down this particular slippery slope with all of their strength.

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MTW1961 4029 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-26-04, 07:40 PM (EST)

108. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

That's a good answer, AZ_Leo, thanks. Anyone else have an opinion on this slippery slope thing?

Handcrafted by RollDdice!
I have to go home now, so can't participate in the discussion for a while. Damn. I always miss the good parts!

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:40 PM (EST)

109. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

Why would anybody care if siblings marry, btw?

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MTW1961 4029 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-26-04, 07:43 PM (EST)

111. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

If you don't like siblings, let's make it parent child. And there are MANY who would consider THAT a bad thing!

Handcrafted by RollDdice!
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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-26-04, 08:13 PM (EST)

119. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

From most of the versions I have read, the proposed constitional amendment wouldn't actually prohibit either of those cases. I've never seen any age or relationship restrictions included. I have seen some versions that specify only one man and one woman but that's about it.

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 07:43 PM (EST)

112. "THAT"

is a pretty slippery slope...
"your honor, it wasn't incest... we wanna get married."

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-26-04, 07:54 PM (EST)

116. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

Darned if I know. I don't even want to be in the same state as mine.

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aethelstan 4435 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-26-04, 08:33 PM (EST)

124. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

At the risk of throwing all the touchy subjects into the same thread...
From my understanding (and that is far from complete), there are genetic reasons why one would not want to procreate with their close genetic neighbour (sibling/parent/child). (Actually, in the Middles Ages, for a time, the ban went to third cousins.)
Now, this may beg the question whether procreation is implied by marriage. Clearly, in my opinion, it is not or else my pro-same-sex marriage would be undermined. Nevertheless, the act of marriage sanctions the couples choice to procreate (or adopt) but (marriage) is in and of itself insufficient for procreation as clearly persons may choose to procreate (and adopt) outside of a married state.
*hmmm, how to phrase*
I would have no substantive problem with sibling marriage provided that they don't procreate on the grounds of genetic factors (close genetic neighbours); however, I doubt that a law stating this in these words would be practical or enforceable therefore it is easier to make the law forbidding marriage between close genetic neighbours.
Gosh I hope I made myself clear enough.

© Kittyloaf Creations, 2004

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 09:11 PM (EST)

126. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

Please recall that I believe parenthood should require a license ...

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Bucky Katt 3146 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 09:52 PM (EST)

128. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

What would be required to obtain a license?
"How 'bout a birdy? I got a little birdy right here."

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 08:48 AM (EST)

138. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

Evidence of competence and commitment to socially responsible child rearing ... You can imagine the quiz if you wish

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-27-04, 11:02 AM (EST)

141. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

LAST EDITED ON 03-27-04 AT 11:02 AM (EST)
<sarcasm>Yes, I am sure there would be no controversy over what constitutes socially responsible child rearing.</sarcasm>
Yeah, It's a JSlice
Doesn't see how a test would support reproductive freedom.

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Bucky Katt 3146 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-27-04, 11:53 AM (EST)

145. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

Would that include having some financial means to raise a child? Is it socially responsible to raise a child with no means of income for instance?
I can imagine the quiz, and the headaches it would cause despite its merits.....
"How 'bout a birdy? I got a little birdy right here."

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 01:35 PM (EST)

154. "RE: Question for those opposed:"

But of course dear Katt ... you gotta be able to feed 'em, school 'em, and teach 'em manners. (That last one is the toughest I think.)

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-27-04, 12:29 PM (EST)

150. "State Requirements for cousins marrying"

Interestingly, Arizona is one of the states that allows cousins to marry but has put in a procreation restriction.
"Cousin Marriages: Yes, first cousins may marry if both are sixty-five years of age or older. If one or both first cousins are under sixty-five years of age, they can marry if they show proof to a superior court judge that one of them is unable to reproduce. "
Most states (i.e., Texas, Tennessee, Alabama) that allow first cousin marriages don't restrict.
From this site which has detailed marriage requirements on a state level.
http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriagelicenses/a/usmarlaws.htm
And not to leave our Canadian friends out:
http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriagelicenses/p/canadian.htm

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 07:42 PM (EST)

110. "March for Women's Lives, April 25, 2004"

"The time is right for a public demonstration of historic size in support of reproductive freedom and justice for all women. Threats to these rights have never been so systematic and coordinated, and the lives and health of women have never faced such peril. On April 25th, in our Nation’s Capitol we march to uphold – Choice, Justice, Access, Health, Abortion, Global and Family Planning. Please join us for the March for Women's Lives."
http://www.marchforwomen.org/

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bondt007 3413 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 07:50 PM (EST)

114. "RE: March for Women's Lives, April 25, 2004"

... support reproductive freedom?

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 08:13 PM (EST)

120. "RE: March for Women's Lives, April 25, 2004"

Yes?
(What is this post meant to convey?)

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bondt007 3413 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-26-04, 08:16 PM (EST)

121. "RE: March for Women's Lives, April 25, 2004"

I guess I'm not too sure whats is or is not free now... or is it that things are in the works to remove freedoms...

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-26-04, 08:19 PM (EST)

123. "RE: March for Women's Lives, April 25, 2004"

Follow the link.

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-26-04, 09:14 PM (EST)

127. "RE: March for Women's Lives, April 25, 2004"

You know, close the forced sterilization camps, put an end to super model cloning and cease sperm rationing.

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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 00:26 AM (EST)

131. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Reading this thread; interesting.
I'm trying to be less abrasive, but something sticks out to me that I need answers on.
People here are worried that it will be used to overturn Roe v Wade. In my mind, if Roe is "good law", then it should uphold the constitutional mustard. If it is "bad law" it will be overturned, just like others have. At one time in this country a black person counted as 3/5 of a person, and women were not allowed the right to vote; both were bad and were changed.
I can't see how the challage would be a bad thing for the pro abortion lobby, if it is constitutional. They could put that "baby" to bed once and for all, and pro life activists wouldn't really have a leg to stand on. When the actual woman involved in Roe, however, comes out and says she was young, stupid, and felt like a pawn to the pro choice movement, I really think it should be examined.
We all hate to have our sacred cows challanged, but if they are truely sacred they will be left alone.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-27-04, 00:49 AM (EST)

132. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Constitutional mustard? Is that what they serve in the Supreme Court cafeteria?

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-27-04, 01:22 AM (EST)

133. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I hear the speciality is Veal Scalia-pini.
Yeah, It's a JSlice

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 10:17 AM (EST)

140. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Veal Scalia-pini

Okay now THAT is funny!
Though shouldn't it be Wild Duck Scalia-pini?

--quacks

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-27-04, 11:09 AM (EST)

142. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

*finishes second cup of coffee*
I get it now. HA!
Yeah, It's a JSlice
Have you tried the Ginsburg Lager? Smooth.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 11:47 AM (EST)

143. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Have you tried the Ginsburg Lager? Smooth.
Yeah, but it gave me a tummy ache cuz I drank it while eating Breyer vanilla ice cream.

--thinks ice cream and beer are a bad combo any time of the day

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-27-04, 12:05 PM (EST)

146. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Beer Floats, blech, I had blocked that night from my memory. I don't know which was worse, the floats or the Hershey's syrup and Strohs.
Yeah, It's a JSlice
It all ended up sacrificed on the porcelain alter.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 12:09 PM (EST)

148. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Ewww! Stop it, I'm getting tummy rumblin's just reading about it!

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-27-04, 12:54 PM (EST)

151. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Anytime you put 7 college freshmen in a lakeside cabin in mid November with nothing but lots of cheap beer and the contents of the kitchen cabinets, you have a receipe for gastrointestinal disaster.
The proximity of the lake and all that testosterone combined with near freezing temperatures was also not the wisest move either.
Then there was the bottle rocket war on a 3'X 12' piece of boat dock.
Ah youth, it's a wonder any of us survived.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 01:03 PM (EST)

153. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Anytime you put 7 college freshmen in a lakeside cabin in mid November with nothing but lots of cheap beer and the contents of the kitchen cabinets, you have a receipe for gastrointestinal disaster.
And this is why I'm glad to not be starting college until I'm 40!
Of course, since I'm going to culinary college one would *hope* that my college parties will have much better wine and food.

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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 01:42 PM (EST)

156. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

>Of course, since I'm going to
>culinary college one would *hope*
>that my college parties will
>have much better wine and food.
Well, lots of fine foods do need a splash of liqueur or brandy -- and what are you supposed to do with the leftovers in the bottle after cooking? Drink it, of course!

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 02:52 PM (EST)

157. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

and what are you supposed to do with the leftovers in the bottle after cooking?
You've got leftovers? Mr. Stinky you're not adding enough bourbon to your bourbon sauce!!
*smooch*

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MTW1961 4029 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-27-04, 01:37 AM (EST)

134. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

That's what I tend to think KeithFan. Put it to the test. If it is worthy, it will withstand even the strongest most organized lobby.

Handcrafted by RollDdice!
Have you hugged your TiVo today?

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 08:50 AM (EST)

139. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Ahhh, yes. Our non-political supreme court has never wrongly decided things and subsequently overturned themselves ...
Also, I know of NO permanently decided law. Do you? Maybe AyaK does.

© J Slice, who rocks
"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words" Proverbs 23-9

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Bucky Katt 3146 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-27-04, 11:51 AM (EST)

144. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Also, I know of NO permanently decided law. Do you?
The Law of Whatever Supermarket Line I Am In Moves Slowest.
"How 'bout a birdy? I got a little birdy right here."

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 12:07 PM (EST)

147. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Word on that Bucky!
mistofleas --is at home with dial-up so forgos her sig pic

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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 04:01 PM (EST)

158. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Some would say it is correcting errors, like my examples above.
Just saying.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 04:12 PM (EST)

159. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

KeithFan, in your post #131 above, you said at the end of the post:
We all hate to have our sacred cows challanged, but if they are truely sacred they will be left alone.
That "sacred cow" as you put it, is my body, so there never should have been a law or anything else telling me what I could or couldn't do with it in the first place.

--wonders if Margaret Atwoods creation of "Republic of Giliad" is all that far away

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-27-04, 04:15 PM (EST)

160. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

There, there, misto. Just have some constitutional mustard, and you'll feel better.

Worships at the alter of true mistocism.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 04:22 PM (EST)

161. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I'm thinking constitutional mustard is that grainy kind right?

--will always consider diamond to be a girls best friend

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-27-04, 04:46 PM (EST)

162. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Is that good or bad? Me, I like a smooth dijon, except for on hotdogs, which take a spicy brown. That fluorescent yellow stuff is evil, though.
Anyway, don't mind me. Like Mike Tyson, I'll be fading into Bolivian....

Also enjoys a good malapropism now and then.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 04:51 PM (EST)

163. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I dislike grainy mustard. I'm a smooth kinda girl myself. Guldens Spicy Brown is the way to go in almost any circumstance but Djion for marinades and dressings.
Diamond honey, why would you want to go anywhere with Tysonm Boliva or otherwise?

--thinks if diamond fades to anywhere it should be to her house for a spot of tea and a game of scrabble

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-27-04, 05:42 PM (EST)

166. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Mmmm, tea is good, though probably not with the constitutional mustard. And I like Scrabble, but I'm not very good at it.

And since I am probably starting to sound incoherent (not unusual), I will send you a PM in a moment to explain.

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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 05:32 PM (EST)

165. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Be inflammatory if you wish, but you know that's not what I was writing about, and it is Roe v Wade being the sacred cow. Perhaps the SC would rule in your favor, and thus clear up all the muddle with various state challenges and 50 regulations for 50 states. You have the numbers now.
As an adoptee born pre-Roe, I have my opinions on the matter that won't change without being hypocritical, nor do I expect to change yours.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 09:41 PM (EST)

182. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Be inflammatory if you wish, but you know that's not what I was writing about, and it is Roe v Wade being the sacred cow.
First of all if you think of my saying that the sacred cow you spoke of is my body as inflammatory...wow.
Second, of course Roe is the sacred cow and by extension the sacred cow is my body.
Any law that deals that tries to take away my right to decide what I can or cannot do with my body is, for me, not acceptable.
I know you feel your way about it and I feel mine. That's the way it is.
I'm not sure what you mean by you have the numbers now. but okay...um...thanks.

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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 10:48 PM (EST)

191. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Numbers- we probably don't have the votes to overturn Roe as the court stands right now.
Any law that deals that tries to take away my right to decide what I can or cannot do with my body is, for me, not acceptable.
That's the crux of it, many good, well-minded individuals think that it is your body in utero, and feel you should have the same rights. Not that the other side isn't good or well-minded.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 00:54 AM (EST)

194. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Numbers- we probably don't have the votes to overturn Roe as the court stands right now.

Ah, it is so not about what's constitution for "you" (referring to your use of "we"), is it? Nothing really having to do with standing or falling on its own merits. It's about getting an ideological majority on the Supreme Court to force it's religious doctrine down the throats of the nation. Wow. Thanks for making it so crystal clear, though.
Just one more reason to add to the long,long list of why George W. Bush cannot be elected in November.

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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:08 AM (EST)

195. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

It's about getting an ideological majority on the Supreme Court to force it's religious doctrine down the throats of the nation
Many would argue that this is exactly what the current Roe ruling is right now as it stands. Just sayin.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:36 AM (EST)

196. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Those many would be arguing a losing proposition, seeing that only two justices dissented in Roe and one of them, Rehnquist, was the newest appointee of the Nixon administration.
Just sayin'.

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:02 AM (EST)

211. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Absolutely, demonstrably NOT TRUE. False. Bullpuckey.
Under no circumstances are you REQUIRED to get an abortion under the current laws and in light of Roe vs. Wade. HOWEVER, if Roe is overturned, those who do not believe abortion is a sin WILL be FORCED to NOT have an abortion in order to comply with the primarily RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY-MOTIVATED new status quo.
If you don't like abortion, think it's a sin, DON'T HAVE ONE.
No, that's not good enough, you can't just control your own body, and maybe the bodies of your wife and daughters, you have to control the bodies of women you haven't even met, FOR THEIR OWN GOOD.
Feh.
Authoritarians make me ill.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:10 AM (EST)

213. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

No, that's not good enough, you can't just control your own body, and maybe the bodies of your wife and daughters, you have to control the bodies of women you haven't even met, FOR THEIR OWN GOOD.
I'll be your chattel JV.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:41 PM (EST)

245. "JV,"

Yeah, that too.

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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 09:16 AM (EST)

303. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

HOWEVER, if Roe is overturned, those who do not believe abortion is a sin WILL be FORCED to NOT have an abortion in order to comply with the primarily RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY-MOTIVATED new status quo
Never have I forced religion down someones throat, ever. People would probably consider me a Christian, but I leave my thumping bible at home, since I would never be able to spar on the religious aspect. The fact that you see it that way is your own stereotyping. My objection is the whole "right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" thing. The fact that it goes along with, and not in contrast to, current christian doctrine is ok by me, but not required.
No, that's not good enough, you can't just control your own body, and maybe the bodies of your wife and daughters, you have to control the bodies of women you haven't even met, FOR THEIR OWN GOOD
This would be true, and I would vigorously defend the right to have an abortion if anyone could conclusively show me that a baby in the womb isn't a human. Until then, I believe, that we are required to err on the side of caution, and first, do no harm.
Many of us see it as defending those that are incapable of defending themselves (kind of like France), and the woman's body of which you speak I have no issue with, unless there is a danger to her life, which then I think it is a sad but necessary thing. I would never have been born post Roe (please, no applause), which may not bother some, but I sure enjoy life. Nor would I have been able to produce 2 beautiful girls. It is this right which I defend, and not the whole religious aspect.
Now, if this point of view "makes you ill", that is just sad.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:18 PM (EST)

364. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

BRAVO!
well said KF!

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-28-04, 02:19 AM (EST)

198. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

LAST EDITED ON 03-28-04 AT 02:56 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 03-28-04 AT 02:27 AM (EST)
As I say in post #197:
"I DO NOT WANT TO BE AN INCUBATOR BECAUSE MY GOVERNMENT SAYS SO"
You can read more about how I feel down there, but really, a woman should not be MADE to carry a child if she does not want to. And then, who will take care of it?? Yes I know there are MANY couples awaiting babies, I know some. However, compare that to the number of of abortions performed yearly worldwide.
There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted each year worldwide, there are approximately 126,000 abortions conducted each day.
WHO will take care of them?
WHO will pay for it?
We are talkin' A LOT of babies. There are not 46 MILLION couples available every year to care for them. No how, no way. What do you do with this population explosion?

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 08:16 AM (EST)

199. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

there are MANY couples awaiting babies
Yes there are. They are awaiting perfect white babies. There are plenty of babies, not perfect and/or not white, who are awaiting families today.

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Lisapooh 12664 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:32 AM (EST)

214. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

This is what always seems so weird to me. The very same people who are so adamantly opposed to abortion are usually the ones vehemently critical of welfare mothers and vocal in their condemnation of ADC, food stamps and other government programs that protect economically disadvantaged kids.
I don't get it - protect the fetus, but abandon the child?
Why does their concern about the survival of these kids end once they pass through the birth canal?

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:55 AM (EST)

215. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

It makes my head spin too.

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-28-04, 12:20 PM (EST)

222. "And a part of argument is untouched"

And the largest part of my argument the right to lifers will not touch...
What do we DO with them after they are born??
No one wants to dare answer that question. They just want to save the life, they could care less what happens to it once it is saved.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:02 PM (EST)

251. "RE: And a part of argument is untouched"

See at least a partial response to this further done this thread.

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 01:18 PM (EST)

342. "request"

I respectfully ask that people avoid making generalizations about other people who are opposed to abortion, such as:
The very same people who are so adamantly opposed to abortion are usually the ones vehemently critical of welfare mothers and vocal in their condemnation of ADC, food stamps and other government programs that protect economically disadvantaged kids.
(I realize you did qualify your statement with "usually")
No one wants to dare answer that question. They just want to save the life, they could care less what happens to it once it is saved.
No one seems to want talk about what happens to the precious babies we need to save...once they are here! And they hate paying mothers on Financial assitance now, and they are against birth control.
I am not critical of welfare mothers. Being critical of the welfare system is not the same as being critical of those who need assistance.
I do care about what happens to the life that is saved.
And I am not against birth control, nor do I hate the mothers on financial assitance. I wish we had a BETTER system to help them.

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-29-04, 03:39 PM (EST)

372. "RE: request"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 03:44 PM (EST)
My comments are burning and angry, yes, as I made most of them. However, the reason I burn is due to our right wing conservative poiliticians who do not support a baby once it is born into poverty. Let's cut welfare by making them go to work, which I support by the way being a tax payer, and that is what the welfare system should be for. BUT as a social worker and a person who cares I object to the fact they slash and/or eliminate child care funding that would allow a mother to be able to care for her child in a safe environment as she works and can get a decent job or go to school.
It doesn't make sense.
The welfare system cuts these children off after a certain point, with good reason some would say, but a mother who has found work still needs a bump up, and no, can't get it. What happens to that child we wanted to save?
I am not accusing YOU Black dog personally of not caring for each child. I BLAME our politicians and our system for making bad decisions who effect our poor, namely our children.
I object to bringing over 15,000 Hmong from a life of hell, I am sure, but they are coming here to the Twin Cities in batches. THEY will get MORE economic assitance than offered U.S. citizens already here!! Those poor trying to make it here already! Is there an easy solution to this, no! But to an American family an aide who can't get it, it can make a person wonder what priorities are. I am all for helping refugees by the way, just making an argument.
I am throwing this in not to start another debate, but to show how screwed up the priorities can be. What do you do with the money the tax payers are spending now? We are building clinics in Iraq so they can get better heath care at the tune $100 million at least, I am SURE it will be more when all is said and done. Am I saying these are not worthy causes? No. But There is so much to spend the money on NOW and not a lot of money to go around as it is. 46 million more people per year is a lot.
We can't take care of the ones we have now.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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blacknwhitedog 6532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:45 PM (EST)

375. "RE: request"

I was just asking everyone to be a little careful about blanket generalizations.
But, I agree with a lot of your statements in the post above.
And I don't blame you for feeling angry!
thanks for the work that you do, Bawdy

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-29-04, 03:52 PM (EST)

376. "RE: request"

I concede to your point and I appologize if I offended you dear. I will try to be more careful. It's my first time getting into one of the "Big Debates".
Overall, it has been good. We are a passionate community, and we feel strongly. Which is good. I hope everyone comes out of this still respecting and liking each other. I know do. I have gotten to know others better with their view points, and that isn't a bad thing! Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean we can't be friends!

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-27-04, 05:54 PM (EST)

167. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

That "sacred cow" as you put it, is my body
You say this as if it were fact. But it isn't. It is what you believe. I do not share your belief. And I am not pleased about the notion that the law protects your beliefs and not mine.

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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 06:01 PM (EST)

168. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Misto's body isn't hers? Who's is it?

you learn something new every day

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 06:46 PM (EST)

170. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Well, True, that really is the core of the problem, isn't it?

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 07:22 PM (EST)

173. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I'd have Misto as my chattel, when it's reaffirmed as the law of the land.
Just saying, is all.

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-27-04, 07:39 PM (EST)

177. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Yes, it is.
One camp says a fetus is just like an eye or an arm or a breast or a toe or an earlobe and you should be allowed to do with it as you please.
The other camp says a fetus is an individual with its own heart, brain, blood, DNA and it should be afforded the same rights as any other individual.
Not much room for compromise there.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 09:52 PM (EST)

184. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Pssst true, didn't you get the schedule? I'm all yours schweetheart!
Until next weekend that is, then I'm JV's.
As for the comment leading up to this silly exchange...
Nah, not even worth commenting about.

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Bucky Katt 3146 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-27-04, 07:13 PM (EST)

172. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

That "sacred cow" as you put it, is my body, so there never should have been a law or anything else telling me what I could or couldn't do with it in the first place.
So then I could strangle someone to death under the law. After all, the law (as you put it) says that I can do whatever I want with my body. Well we know that isn't so - you can't legally kill another human being with your body.
The abortion issue is about the same thing it has always been about. When does a human being's life begin. Conception? Birth? Somewhere in between? *shrug* What do I care, cats don't have abortions.
"How 'bout a birdy? I got a little birdy right here."

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-27-04, 07:23 PM (EST)

174. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

LAST EDITED ON 03-27-04 AT 07:50 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 03-27-04 AT 07:31 PM (EST)
Cats and dogs do have abortions to help save their lives or stop unwanted pregnancies. We also euthanize our pets to stop their suffering.
We treat our animals better than humans ALL the time.
Editted again to say that your arguement....<<<So then I could strangle someone to death under the law. After all, the law (as you put it) says that I can do whatever I want with my body. Well we know that isn't so - you can't legally kill another human being with your body.>>>>
Okay this is flawed I think because you are doing UNTO another being with your body which we have laws that say it's wrong. The whole bottome line of course is the whole conception issue. To me it is murder to kill my neighbor or any other living human being, already out of that there uterus. I think to have an abortion is NEVER an easy decision. It is potential life certainly. But a cellular potential as opposed to a living being outside of another being are TWO different things.
I want choice. I want option. I want safe medical procedures available to women for their health.
Let's not even get into cost factors of the billions of aborted childern every year. And do not hand me the "families want childern" Yes, they do, I know couples who seriously desire children. BUT there are not nearly enough couples in the world for all the abortions performed. And who will pay for them? Our welfare system the republicans hate now is stretched to the limit as it is...so this is a multi level complicated issue.
Oh yeah, I just opened yet ANOTHER can of worms. My specialty. Dig in! They're earthy!

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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Bucky Katt 3146 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-27-04, 07:29 PM (EST)

175. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

My cat who got neutered at 6 months may disagree with you.
"How 'bout a birdy? I got a little birdy right here."

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-27-04, 07:33 PM (EST)

176. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I am talking about less responsible owners who do not spay or neuter. Then again, some breeders, who are very responsible have problems if their champion pedigree pups get busy with a 'less seemly' creature who is too big for them, and it is not safe for the dog to carry the babies. It happens.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 10:00 PM (EST)

185. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

TT,
A fetus is FAR more than "celluar potential". What REALLY scares abortionists are laws requiring women to view pictures, etc... of fetuses prior to consenting to an abortion.
Why does it scare them? Because it shows the reality of the unborn child and causes some women, especially in the case of late semester abortions, to change their minds. As a result, the abortionists lose customers.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-27-04, 10:23 PM (EST)

189. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Yes, we are much too stupid to know what a fetus looks like, so we must be forced to view pictures at the reeducation camp. A lot like what happened to Alex in A Clockwork Orange when his eyelids were propped open ...
Yes, yes, the abortionists who are all getting rich off of the procedure fear women being indoctrinated. That's it.

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 10:51 AM (EST)

207. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I have to say, I know several doctors who perform abortions. If their clientele evaporated tomorrow, I think they would all be just fine with that, and still get along quite well in their careers. Their primary concern, without exception, is providing good, safe medical care to their patients.
I personally am opposed to abortion, but I am extremely PRO-CHOICE, as it's not MY body that is incubating the parasitic life to maturity.
I would, however, love to hear how the pro-lifers think we'd all pay for the 46 million new mouths we'd be feeding... Aren't they all about removing welfare, too, for the most part?
Oh well. The best part, in my mind, is that the majority of those lobbying against abortion are also ideologically opposed to birth control. {{{boggle}}}

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-28-04, 10:59 AM (EST)

209. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

JV, I am so with ya.
No one seems to want talk about what happens to the precious babies we need to save...once they are here! And they hate paying mothers on Financial assitance now, and they are against birth control.
Yeah. Like people are going to stop having sex too just because their government says so.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:29 PM (EST)

225. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Like people are going to stop having sex too just because their government says so.
Well of course they are. That's what most of our AIDS help to Africa is about -- abstinence education. See if we just EXPLAIN it to the poor dumb folks, they'll stop having sex. If we're lucky it will also end rape.
(You say rape isn't about sex? You've been misled by the libruls.)

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:27 PM (EST)

224. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I wonder how they feel about castration...

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aethelstan 4435 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-28-04, 08:22 PM (EST)

271. "To follow up on what JV said"

I friend of mine is a Menonite doctor who happens to be required to perform abortions. We had an interesting discussion on this topic not two weeks ago. Like I am, she is opposed to abortion but recognizes that a need for doctors to perform this service. She always goes through all the available alternatives with the pregnant woman but ultimately the choice is the patient's.
One of the statistics that she mentioned (and I'm afraid that I haven't had an opportunity to look up a source) is that the rate of maternal death is greater in those countries where restrictions on abortions are the most strict. In other words, women who want abortions will find a way of getting an abortion, regardless of the laws, and this puts these women in great risk of death from internal hemorrhaging (sp?) or other operation-related complications. So, allowing doctors to perform abortions in a safe environment in a safe way, in fact, saves the mother's life.
Personally, I think education is ultimately the most important weapon against unwanted pregnancies. That, and, of course, contraception. It seems to me that the pro-life and pro-choice movements should emphasize these two things in an effort to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. But, if one should arise, (faulty contraception, rape, etc.), leave the doctors in peace so that they may do it the right way and not have unsafe abortions performed in the back alleys like they once were (and probably still are).

© Kittyloaf Creations, 2004

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-28-04, 10:25 PM (EST)

276. "Amen"

I agree. Everything you said. Well spoke.
I dislike the view that we need to save the 'childs' life over a 'woman's' life. People will get abortions in some way shape or form.
The rich, and funny enough the same ones previously opposed to it until they were in that position, will STILL get abortions once made illegal. Oh, you bet they will! They will have their doctor call it a "D&C" to make it look good and legal and everyone gets what they want.
Believe me. It happened BEFORE Roe vs. Wade. If made illegal, the rich and powerful still get their way.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:09 PM (EST)

349. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

" personally am opposed to abortion, but I am extremely PRO-CHOICE, as it's not MY body that is incubating the parasitic life to maturity."
Thank you. This is why I am comforted by these thresds in the face of political polarization and rhetoric.
You can be opposed to abortion AND pro choice.

"Any government that would deny a gay man bridal registry is fascist." Margaret Cho

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:25 PM (EST)

367. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

My wife falls into this category. Personally opposed to abortion, but equally opposed to the government controlling her choices.
She says I don't understand cuz I'm a guy, which I guess is true. (That I don't understand, I mean. That I'm a guy is indisputable).

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-28-04, 01:48 AM (EST)

197. "*Hypothetical rant*"

LAST EDITED ON 03-28-04 AT 02:12 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 03-28-04 AT 02:11 AM (EST)
If I am getting an abortion, if I have made that decision, it is an INFORMED decision. I KNOW what the gestation of the 'fetus' is at the point I would go in and do this.
To say otherwise is so insulting. To think a woman takes THIS kind of decision lightly is so beyond insulting.
A picture, a film, whatever you show me will NOT make a difference. If I do not want to raise a child I do not want for my own reasons, then THAT should be good enough. Perhaps I can not afford it, I am impoverished, perhaps I would make a terrible mother, or fear motherhood as I was abused and fear the cycle of abuse, I may have never wanted to BE a parent and my bith control I was so careful with failed. OR goddess forbid I was raped and am pregnant. I do not want it for whatever reason.
I DO NOT NEED TO BE AN INCUBATOR BECAUSE MY GOVERNMENT SAYS SO.
That just plain pisses me off.

Excellent siggy by JSlice
Disclaimer: I want children, I was not abused, I will be a kick-a$$ mother. I just want women to have SAFE medical procedures available if they choice to terminate a pregnancy. It is NEVER an easy choice. Again, no one wants to touch the issue of PAYING for the children we would be SAVING.

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PepeLePew13 26135 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 08:51 AM (EST)

200. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

LAST EDITED ON 03-28-04 AT 08:55 AM (EST)
I hear you loud and clear, and I think almost all of the women here on OT agrees with you.
However, there *ARE* women out there who are completely clueless and think having an abortion is just a morning-after pill to them.
I know because there's a girl here in my community who has had four abortions and she just shrugs them off as if they're nothing (and she's got four kids as well - with a total of, I believe, 7 different men with these 8 pregnancies) . THAT is who these pictures are directed at, so even though it's a very small minority of women who are like that, they prolly can't take their chances that every woman automatically assumes to be making an informed decision.
I'd have to ask my wife, who used to know this girl quite well, but I think she said at one time upon finding out she was pregnant yet again, she said along the lines of "Well, I'll just get an abortion to fix this as it's not a good time for me to have a baby."
It can only take one bad apple to spoil all of the good apples...

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-28-04, 10:49 AM (EST)

206. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

Yet again going on with my part of the argument no one wants to touch. Does she need to be raising 11 kids?? Can she pay for 11 kids? Who is paying for the 7 she has? Probably us through economic assistance.
Granted, I am disgusted that she does not have the brain cells to use birth control that she could get affordably, I abhor her lack of personal responsibilty. Yet, if she WERE to have those children, how would they grow up?? She sure would not give them away for adoption.
No answer is easy, and no one looks past the precious life that once it is actually been saved, it needs to be fed and housed and needs medical care, no one seems to give a rip about that.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:18 PM (EST)

221. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

LAST EDITED ON 03-28-04 AT 12:19 PM (EST)
No answer is easy, and no one looks past the precious life that once it is actually been saved, it needs to be fed and housed and needs medical care, no one seems to give a rip about that.
You are right, there are no easy answers.
And as to caring, I give a rip about that. Many charities/right to life organizations provide MUCH financial and emotional assistance to women who choose not to abort their children.
Also, there ARE lots of couples eager to adopt. If the mother does not wish to give up her child for adoption, there needs to be adequate provision for the financial wel-being of children who are the innocents in all of this, BUT with safeguards so that the mother cannot blow it all at the casino, or whatever.

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-28-04, 12:35 PM (EST)

226. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

I am just saying it's a meer numbers game which is not attractive. I am so glad that there are organizations out there to help mother's who want to keep there babies in a healthy manner as opposed to abortion. AND the organizations who help mother's assist in giving their child up for adoption to couples who so desperately want children.
I am a social worker, I have spent a lot of time with young mothers, teenagers at best, who want to keep their babies, or don't. Regardless of age, they are ill equipt to raise a child financially and this becomes the tax payer's burdon. The lives of these children are a vicious cycle that is so difficult to break.
Overall, there is not enough families in the world for the 46 million abortions performed each and every year. And that's a rough estimate. Some people just want white babies. Or Asian, but are unwilling to take a black child, or mixed race, or indian. I have seen this through adoption servicing.
What do we do with the rest??
I thank you Rudy for at least trying to take up this part of the tough issue that everyone is avoiding like the elephant in the OT abortion topic living room.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:44 PM (EST)

228. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

Well TT,
You raised fair questions that deserve an answer or at least some thought.

Trying to catch the elephant

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 11:26 AM (EST)

314. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 11:28 AM (EST)
>I am a social worker, I
>have spent a lot of
>time with young mothers, teenagers
>at best, who want to
>keep their babies, or don't.

You know, we do know what causes those pregnancies. Perhaps better education is on order, rather than carte blanche to have an abortion to fix the problem?

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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aethelstan 4435 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-29-04, 11:50 AM (EST)

320. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

Perhaps better education is on order,
Agreed, NB. As I mentioned somewhere else (I think post 271), it seems to me that the focus of attention should be to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, via education and contraception. If the number of unwanted pregnancies were reduced to zero (I know, wishful thinking), then there wouldn't be any abortion discussion.

© Kittyloaf Creations, 2004
Winter has left me adrift...

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-29-04, 11:54 AM (EST)

321. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

The problem (as has been stated by others) is that many of those who are not pro-choice are also trying to limit what is allowed to be taught in sex education classes, assuming they want to teach any at all.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:51 PM (EST)

336. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

The problem is, also, that education post pregnancy doesn't help much.

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-29-04, 01:04 PM (EST)

340. "What can happen without education"

By coincidence this article appear in azcentral.com today. It's unbelievable to me that there is even any question about providing information, especially under these circumstances. And does anyone else think that $150,000 for the entire state is barely adequate? I would be interested to know how much the state spends on sports in comparison.
N.M. school district struggles with children having children
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0329YoungMoms29-ON.html
Excerpts (it's a long article)
In the less than three years that records have been kept, 427 girls in the Gadsden school district - with a female population of around 6,500 students - either entered school pregnant or became pregnant while enrolled. Many started having sex or became pregnant when they were not yet in their teens. They are children having children.
School officials partly blame the state, which provides no sex-education curriculum. Others say family attitudes toward early sex and poverty contribute to what local authorities say is an alarmingly high incidence of pregnancy.
"There is no state curriculum for sex education," said Ron Haugen, superintendent of the Gadsden School District. "We have a health component in P.E., but that is more about wellness. It doesn't address sexuality."
------
Last year, the Gadsden school district recorded 174 pregnancies, officials say.
As of January, a total of 69 girls throughout the district were expecting - 42 were freshmen, usually 14 years old or younger - and two of them were still in elementary school, presumably under age 13, according to the school's nursing department. Most of the girls will not graduate.
During the fall semester, 40 freshman girls entered Gadsden High School pregnant, the nursing department found. There were 747 freshmen enrolled at the school, most of them 14 years old. The records do not separate the students into female or male.
-------
Fourteen-year-old Alejandra, who began having sex at age 12 with a boy six years her senior, said a class in sexuality and the realities of pregnancy could have changed her life.
"I know things would have been different if I had understood more, or if someone had talk to me about the responsibilities and everything else," said the mother of an 8-month-old. "My future would be different."

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 01:10 PM (EST)

341. "RE: What can happen without education"

All this wouldn't be a problem if we just reverted to the old ways and didn't let girls attend school.
I mean, it's so simple.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:18 PM (EST)

353. "RE: What can happen without education"

All this wouldn't be a problem if we just reverted to the old ways and didn't let girls attend school.
*takes off her shoes and heads back to the kitchen*

--razzberries Landru

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:24 PM (EST)

354. "RE: What can happen without education"

That's jist how ah lahk you, gir-uhl.
Misto? I want you to meet my good friend Hyperbole.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:43 PM (EST)

358. "RE: What can happen without education"

Landru: I don't mean to be mean or anything but your friend hyperbole seems to be prone to exaggeration.

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:46 PM (EST)

359. "RE: What can happen without education"

If we can't be mean to each other, who can we be mean to?
It's the akkohol.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:27 PM (EST)

368. "RE: What can happen without education"

And we've told him a million times NOT to exaggerate!!!

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:46 PM (EST)

229. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

Many charities/right to life organizations provide MUCH financial and emotional assistance to women who choose not to abort their children.
But I think the point of many peoples frustration is: Can those organizations provide for ALL of the children? I highly doubt it.
So what about the rest of them? They're supposed to just fend for themselves and end up in miserable lives because they've either been abandoned after the mother was forced to carry them to term and then give birth to them, or live in a less than hospitable home because the mother resented having to have a child she was clearly not ready to have OR end up in the prison system possibly awaiting a death sentence (which as we know "is" a legitimate way to kill someone according to many of the people who are against abortion)?
It's the children who are born under these hard circumstances that will be punished in the end.
I think Thomas More said it best: "If you suffer your people to be illeducated and their manners corrupted from infancy, what else is to be concluded but that you first make theives and then punish them"

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:58 PM (EST)

235. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

BTW, Just so we understand each other,
I am personally opposed to the death penalty although not as strongly as to abortion as those on death row are not innocent (hopefully) as opposed to those aborted who are innocent of wrongdoing.
With regard to suffering1, yes, some people are born to a life of suffering and despair and we as the human race should do all we can to reduce that. We just have disagreements on how to best do so.
Many children born to very bad circumstances became pioneers in science, music, etc... (e.g. Beethoven). The chance of being born into a bad circumstance does not justify the means of preventing that: abortion.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:02 PM (EST)

237. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

I am personally opposed to the death penalty although not as strongly as to abortion as those on death row are not innocent (hopefully) as opposed to those aborted who are innocent of wrongdoing.
Oh I know that Rudy, I'm sorry I guess I didn't think I needed to put that in my post, but I really should have since some here may not know that you're opposed to the death penalty. Sorry about that.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:17 PM (EST)

240. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

No problem

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:12 PM (EST)

219. "RE: *Hypothetical rant*"

Yes Pepe, There are indeed women who look on abortion as a form of birth control and have little clue as to what is actually happening. I do not mean to insult any women here, as I know you all are bright and informed.
There is that group of women (and men too) that are ignorant. To require an understanding (with pics or video) seems to me to be not too much to ask.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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Mizz Eve 368 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
03-28-04, 10:46 AM (EST)

205. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

What is a "late trimester" abortion? Abortions are only allowed pre-viability, which is within the first trimester. Any termination beyond that time is done for purely medical reasons.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:47 PM (EST)

230. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Mizz Eve,
I wish that were true.
Many abortions are performed after the first trimester, although most are not.
It depends in part on state law. Partial birth abortion takes place as the baby is part way out of the womb and is not done for medical reasons.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:55 PM (EST)

232. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Oh, really? Since there is no medical procedure called 'partial birth abortion' could you please show some evidence that some procedure that is actually performed "takes place as the baby is part way out of the womb and is not done for medical reasons"?

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:11 PM (EST)

238. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

You do not honestly believe that Partial birth abortion does not take place do you??
Taken from the National Right to Life website at:
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/keyfactsPBA.htm
• The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (H.R. 760, S. 3) would ban performance of a partial-birth abortion except if it were necessary to the save a mother's life. The bill defines partial-birth abortion as an abortion in which “the person performing the abortion deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother,” and then kills the baby. The bill would permit use of the procedure if “necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself.”
• In a partial-birth abortion, the abortionist pulls a living baby feet-first out of the womb and into the birth canal (vagina), except for the head, which the abortionist purposely keeps lodged just inside the cervix (the opening to the womb). The abortionist punctures the base of the baby’s skull with a surgical instrument, such as a long surgical scissors or a pointed hollow metal tube called a trochar. He then inserts a catheter (tube) into the wound, and removes the baby's brain with a powerful suction machine. This causes the skull to collapse, after which the abortionist completes the delivery of the now-dead baby. (See www.house.gov/burton/RSC/haskellinstructional.pdf)
• The January 2003 Gallup poll found that 70% favored and 25% opposed “a law that would make it illegal to perform a specific abortion procedure conducted in the last six months of pregnancy known as ‘partial birth abortion,’ except in cases necessary to save the life of the mother.” (margin of error +/- 3%)
• The term “partial-birth” is perfectly accurate. Under both federal law and most state laws, a “live birth” occurs when a baby is entirely expelled from the mother and shows any signs of life, however briefly -- regardless of whether the baby is “viable,” i.e., developed enough to be sustained outside the womb with neo-natal medical assistance. Even at 4½ months (20 weeks), perinatologists say that if a baby is expelled or removed completely from the uterus, she will usually gasp for breath and sometimes survive for hours, even though lung development is usually insufficient to permit successful sustained respiration until 23 weeks.
• Some prominent defenders of partial-birth abortions, such as NARAL's Kate Michelman and syndicated columnist Ellen Goodman, insisted that anesthesia kills the babies before they are removed from the womb. This myth has been refuted by professional societies of anesthesiologists. In reality, the babies are alive and experience great pain when subjected to a partial-birth abortion.
• Partial-birth abortions are performed thousands of times annually on healthy babies of healthy mothers. In 1997, Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers (1997), estimated that the method was used 3,000 to 5,000 times annually. “In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along, Fitzsimmons said.” (The New York Times, Feb. 26, 1997, p. A11.) (See clippings at www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/index.html, in the late 1996 and early 1997 archive.) In January 2003, even the Alan Guttmacher Institute – an affiliate of Planned Parenthood – published a survey of abortion providers that estimated that 2,200 abortions were performed by the method in the year 2000. While that figure is surely low (see www.nrlc.org/press_releases_new/release011503.html), it is more than triple the number that AGI estimated in its most recent previous survey (for 1996).
• In January 1997, the PBS program Media Matters showed that in 1995-96, the news media largely swallowed a pro-abortion “party line” that partial-birth abortions are performed rarely and only in extreme medical circumstances -- claims later discredited. (See www.pbs.org/wnet/mediamatters99/transcript2.html)
• “Phony ban” counterproposals advanced by Reps. Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) and Jim Greenwood (R-Pa.) would place no limits on partial-birth abortions in the fifth and sixth months of pregnancy, when the vast majority of partial-birth abortions occur. Furthermore, these “phony bans” would allow an abortion even in the seventh month and later if an abortionist asserts that a baby is not “viable” or that an abortion is required to preserve “health.” Reps. Hoyer and Greenwood admitted that their proposal would allow third-trimester abortions even for (in their words) “mental health” reasons. (www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/Phony%20ban%20on%20late-term.pdf)
• Another “phony ban” substitute amendment proposed in the past by Senator Tom Daschle (D-SD) and Richard Durbin (D-Il.) would not affect the typical partial-birth abortions performed in the late second trimester. Even in the seventh month and later, the substitute would permit abortions based on any degree of “risk” of “grievous injury to her physical health.” Dr. Warren Hern, a leading practitioner of very late abortions who wrote the textbook Abortion Practice, commented on the Daschle amendment, “I say every pregnancy carries a risk of death,” and therefore, “I will certify that any pregnancy is a threat to a woman’s life and could cause ‘grievous injury’ to her ‘physical health.’” (in USA Today and Washington Times, both May 15, 1997) In other words, under the Daschle-Durbin amendment, any pregnant woman would qualify for an abortion even in the seventh month and later.
• Although usually used in the fifth and sixth months, the partial-birth abortion method is also used to perform abortions in the third trimester -- that is, the seventh month and later. In Kansas, the only state in which the law requires separate reporting of partial-birth abortions, abortionists reported in 1999 they had performed 182 partial-birth abortions on babies who were defined by the abortionists themselves as “viable,” and they also reported that all 182 of these were performed for “mental” (as opposed to “physical”) health reasons. See page 11 of this state report: www.kdhe.state.ks.us/hci/99itop1.pdf
• In a written submission to the House Judiciary Committee in June, 1995, the late Dr. James McMahon – who is considered to be the developer of the method – explicitly acknowledged that he performed such abortions on babies with no “flaw” whatever, even in the third trimester, for such reasons as mere youth of the mother or for “psychiatric” difficulties. Indeed, even at 29 weeks -- well into the seventh month -- one-fourth of the babies that McMahon aborted had no “flaw,” however minor. Moreover, McMahon’s submission showed that in a “series” of about 2,000 such abortions that he performed, only 9% were performed for “maternal indications,” and of that group, the most common reason was “depression.”
• The Physicians’ Ad Hoc Coalition for Truth (PHACT) -- a group of over 600 physician-specialists (mostly in obstetrics, perinatology, and related disciplines) -- has spoken out to dispute claims that some women need partial-birth abortions to avoid serious physical injury. PHACT said: “We, and many other doctors across the United States, regularly treat women whose unborn children suffer these and other serious conditions. Never is the partial-birth procedure medically indicated. Rather, such infants are regularly and safely delivered live, vaginally, with no threat to the mother's health or fertility.” In September, 1996, former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop and other PHACT members said that “partial-birth abortion is never medically necessary to protect a mother's health or her future fertility. On the contrary, this procedure can pose a significant threat to both.”
• In May, 1997, the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (then H.R. 1122) was endorsed by the American Medical Association. In a letter to Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), AMA Executive Vice President P. John Seward, M.D., wrote, “Thank you for the opportunity to work with you towards restricting a procedure we all agree is not good medicine.”

Or Go here:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/partialbirth.html
Or Here:
http://www.tidalweb.com/life/

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:19 PM (EST)

241. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Oh, there are some unbiased sources.
So you have a lot of stuff that deals with THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER but NONE that says this procedure is ever done when not medically necessary.
(By the way, the "mere youth of the mother" typically means a nine or ten year old whose bone structure is not large enough to deliver a full term baby.)

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LadyT 5567 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:28 PM (EST)

243. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

No kidding Tech. I am sooooooo glad that Dubya gets a say in my body and how I use it. If men were the ones to have children, abortion would be in the Bill of Rights

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Mizz Eve 368 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
03-29-04, 01:22 AM (EST)

297. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Thanks Rudy. Not exactly unbiased sources, but I appreciate that you took the time to answer my post.
This all seems like a good argument for RU486.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:23 PM (EST)

366. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

You're welcome

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 12:58 PM (EST)

236. "*borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Many abortions are performed after the first trimester, although most are not.
It depends in part on state law. Partial birth abortion takes place as the baby is part way out of the womb and is not done for medical reasons.
Oh yeah, please...let's go there, we don't have enough heated debate in this thread yet!

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:14 PM (EST)

239. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

I am SO sorry for having to respond to Tech's post above.
I was only answering a statement of Mizz Eve's and I do NOT want to re-hash PB abortion here!
But there is NO way I can let Tech's assertion that there is no such procedure to go un-responded to.

Again, My apologies.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 01:24 PM (EST)

242. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

I didn't say there was no such procedure. I said "partial birth abortion" is not a medical term. There is a procedure that is rarely used late in a pregnancy for medical reasons. The notion that folks are doing this frivolously is repugnant and dishonest.
However this sort of law does give John Ashcroft an excuse to mess in everybody's medical records.
Y'know, I have this odd notion that our country is supposed to represent a free place where folks aren't under constant threat of government reprisals when they don't agree with the government. However under the current regime, and the government you seem to want, we are quickly becoming a totalitarian state. I don't like it, and will continue to struggle to keep the nation free.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:11 PM (EST)

252. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

I am sorry that I apparently misunderstood you. I thought that you were saying that there was no such procedure. I am also not saying that it is done frivoulously, however the fact remains that babies who are VIABLE are pulled part way out of the birth canal and then killed. This never has to be done. It is done as the easiest way for abortionists to perform their craft at that stage in development.
Can we not agree that once any part of a child is exposed, abortion should not be allowed???
And I also want to help keep this nation free. For the record there are portions of the so-called patriot act that bother me. But what bothers me even more is when the most innocent among us can be aborted for virtually any reason. I for one, will continue to support the right to life of all of our citizens. For without life, no other rights are even possible.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 03:21 PM (EST)

259. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Can we not agree that once any part of a child is exposed, abortion should not be allowed???
Sure. A 'child' is an independent being who has drawn breath separate from the birth mother. Until then it is a fetus.

© J Slice, who rocks
"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words" Proverbs 23-9

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 06:10 PM (EST)

267. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

I take it by your response that you are saying that if a "fetus'" skull is outside the birth canal, but it hasn't breathed yet, it is OK to kill it?

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 06:45 PM (EST)

269. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Since it isn't a "child" the word "kill" would be inappropriate.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 08:11 PM (EST)

270. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

The above response I take it means, "Yes".
IMO it is pretty scary that anyone would agree that killing (or aborting, if that's the word you prefer) a child (or viable fetus) that is actually partly outside of the birth canal is OK.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 08:43 PM (EST)

272. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Scary or not, one might view this as a matter of religious freedom, and you seek to limit mine.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm

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bebekid 1621 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
03-28-04, 10:10 PM (EST)

273. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Thanks for the link, Tech. I did not know the Jewish beliefs about abortion before reading this. I don't agree with the views, but it helps me understand where you are coming from. And I respect the fact that you are dedicated to your chosen religion's beliefs, as I am dedicated to mine (Christianity).

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-28-04, 10:53 PM (EST)

278. "*boggle*"

So you do not support a womans right to choose?
"...each case must be decided individually by a rabbi well-versed in Jewish law."

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-29-04, 00:04 AM (EST)

283. "RE: *boggle*"

Since when do rabbis determine U.S. law? The link Tech posted only applies to people who are observant Jews, i.e., people who choose to submit to the authority of the rabbi.
Whether or not any one person (whether it's Tech or anyone else) voluntarily takes direction from a rabbi or the Pope or any other religious figure does NOT change the fact that the decision should NOT be the province of the government.
If you are capable of reading and have a grasp of basic logic, that should have been obvious.

Sorry, Tech, I don't mean to speak for you, but the annoyance was too much.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 00:17 AM (EST)

285. "RE: *boggle*"

I was just gonna post the same thought diamond. Are you in my brain again?

--asks diamond to dust a bit if she is

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-29-04, 00:26 AM (EST)

287. "RE: *boggle*"

Maybe. Okay, fine, you caught me. My brain was tired, so I thought I could use yours for a little while. You don't mind, do you?

Done. And I found some loose change behind your hippocampus. I'll just leave it on the table for you.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 00:39 AM (EST)

289. "RE: *boggle*"

Done. And I found some loose change behind your hippocampus. I'll just leave it on the table for you.
Well heck, no wonder I haven't been able to remember anything lately! Thanks.
Oh but don't put it on the table. I think the little dude that sits in my brain making files has been stealing again.

--really does picture a little dude in overalls rummaging through files and then sending them down the shoot when I need them

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-29-04, 00:48 AM (EST)

291. "RE: *boggle*"

Technoir's post stated that Rudy's objection to D&X procedures was an infringement of her religious rights. Her link was to the Jewish viewpoint concerning abortion. This would imply that Technoir shares these views and is an observant Jew. If she is and she does, then the decision to abort is up to the rabbi.
I never implied that rabbis determine U.S. Law. You were mistaken.
Whether or not the decision to terminate a life, born or unborn, should be the province of the government is a matter of opinion. One that we do not share and I would not expect us to agree on.
As for the rest of your post, I hope it made you feel better. It certainly raised you in my esteem.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 00:57 AM (EST)

292. "RE: *boggle*"

See my post #286

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-29-04, 01:01 AM (EST)

294. "RE: *boggle*"

Technoir's post stated that Rudy's objection to D&X procedures was an infringement of her religious rights. Her link was to the Jewish viewpoint concerning abortion. This would imply that Technoir shares these views and is an observant Jew. If she is and she does, then the decision to abort is up to the rabbi.
And? What exactly is your point?
Any regulation of abortion by the government would interfere with Tech's right to follow the advice of her rabbi, if that is what she wishes to do.
As for the rest of your post, I hope it made you feel better. It certainly raised you in my esteem.
Well, thank goodness. That is certainly important to me.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 01:12 AM (EST)

295. "RE: *boggle*"

I was thinking diamond, you should have another diamond siggy that flashes and sparkles that you use when you post in threads like this.
IceCat honey? Can you make diamond sparkle?

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 05:54 AM (EST)

299. "RE: *boggle*"

I support religious freedom wherein Jewish folk are allowed to follow the tenets of their faith without interference from the government. I am underwhelmed by your clever repartee.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 00:08 AM (EST)

284. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Lots of So-called "Christians" justified slavery because of their twisted interpretaion of the Bible. So by outlawing slavery, we stomped on their religious rights now didn't we?
I can appreciate differences of opinion, including that based on religious points of view.
Actually, my reading of that text shows that Jewish law forbids abortion in many and probably most cases. You should be more in agreement with me than not if that is the basis of your abortion argument.
Even if one does have religious views that the fetus can be aborted at any time, under whatever circumstances, etc... it does not make it right.
The Nazis taught/believed that the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, etc... were less than fully human, but that certainly wasn't right either and did not justify them in carrying out their heinous atrocities.
My point is that anyone can have whatever belief they want, but modern day thinking such as, "whatever is right for you..." does NOT make something right.
There IS A Truth. There are absolutes. Some of us believe we have the truth, some others think they have the truth, some think, whatever your own truth is, go for it. (The last kind is the most dangerous IMO.)
I believe that when we are not sure, we should opt for life, side with the innocent, think about what is the truly honorable and decent thing to do.
So yes, It is pretty darn scary to think that someone would intentionally "abort" a "fetus" in the horrific manner that is partial birth abortion, let alone "normal" aborthion.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 00:22 AM (EST)

286. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Actually, my reading of that text shows that Jewish law forbids abortion in many and probably most cases.
My interpretation of what Tech was showing is that the anti-abortion groups define a "human" with rights as someone still inside the woman, while Jewish law clearly defines a "human" with rights only after the head is outside the woman and in some cases completely outside the woman and until then it is a "partial life" and considered part of the womans body.
Is that right Tech?

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 05:48 AM (EST)

298. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

It is indeed. And in no case should the government decide.

© J Slice, who rocks
"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words" Proverbs 23-9

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 08:45 AM (EST)

302. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Good. And I agree.
I had never known the Jewish view on when "life" begins, thank you very much for that link.

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-29-04, 01:21 AM (EST)

296. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Lots of So-called "Christians" justified slavery because of their twisted interpretaion of the Bible.
Should we really be basing laws that are to apply to all citizens regardless of their religious beliefs on something that can be so easily twisted to provide whatever interpretation is most advantageous to one particular group? That seems very much opposed to the values of this country. Why should I assume that one person's interpretation is any more valid then another's? Especially when you consider that most interpretations are based on translations that incorporate someone else's interpretation and not on the original text (assuming there is agreement on what should be considered the "original" text). I'm no lawyer but that seems an awfully shaky basis.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 10:24 AM (EST)

306. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 10:36 AM (EST)
EXACTLY!
That is what I am saying. While all law is based on morality of one form or another, Jewish law, Christian law, Hindu law, Muslim law should not be the sole basis of whether something is legal or not.
Just becuase Jewish law defines a human one way does not mean that the government cannot define it more broadly. Just as the government had the right to stop slavery despoite the religious opinions of some. And just as the Nazis were wrong doing what they did, despite their beliefs about the humanity of certain races.
Edited for spelling and tpo thank Tech for the link.
Also, in closer review, I see that I was looking a lot at the end where specific cases were, and less at the general principle of most but not all Jewsih authority on this matter. So, yes, I can see where taking the info. in this text one could argue in favor of most abortions.

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-29-04, 10:30 AM (EST)

308. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

And just because christian (or any other) doctrine interprets something more narrowly does not mean the government should restrict rights. Is it better to err by removing freedoms or by forcing them on others (see your slavery example)? Although the Taliban seemed to enjoy making laws that way, most of their citizens probably didn't (if they had been allowed to state an opinion).

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:31 PM (EST)

369. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

AZ Leo, It is hard to tell what angle you are xcoming from with this, but I would refer you in part to KeithFan's post #303 above.
I would also say that the general principle is that government exists to protect life first and foremost. Prohibition against taking another innocent person's life is the first duty of government. The second duty is liberty to the extent it doesn't interfere with the rights of others. Hence slavery should not be allowed. Abortion (except to save the life of the mother) should be outlawed because the "right" to abort interferes with the first right of a human to have life.

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aethelstan 4435 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-29-04, 09:29 AM (EST)

304. "Link"

Thanks for the link, Tech. I was particularly interested to see the section on 'ensoulment'. Over the weekend, I was thinking about this issue and had independently started thinking about just that. Seemed to me that as the words describing the Holy Spirit usually talk of 'breath' or 'wind' or some such, that is would be possible to conclude that the soul enters the body at precisely the moment at which the neonate takes its first breath. And, by that same token, attains full status under the law.
It also seemed to me that adding souls to fetuses when there is a 1 in 6 chance (from what my midwife told me) that the pregnancy doesn't last past the first trimester is, well, inefficient and a waste of good souls.
Personally, I really like the breath symbolism there. I suppose we could try to determine if when a pregnant woman dies whether she loses 42 grams as opposed to 21.

© Kittyloaf Creations, 2004
Naturally, all the above is my opinion and I'm just thinking out loud, as it were. It's part of my personal religion, if you will, a subset of True Mistocism

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 10:32 AM (EST)

309. "RE: Link"

It's part of my personal religion, if you will, a subset of True Mistocism
I'm a cult! I'm a cult!!

--knows she's made it now if there are different factions of her church

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-29-04, 10:40 AM (EST)

310. "RE: Link"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 10:41 AM (EST)
Undoubtedly there are:
There are those who worship your wit and wisdom above all else.
Based on posts here, there are those that worship your physical being above all else.
And of course there are those who take a more holistic approach and worship the whole package as proof of your divinity.
There may be others but there just heretics.
edited because your gloriousness affected my spelling capabilities.

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 10:28 AM (EST)

307. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Tech, thank you for that link. That helps me understand quite a bit more where you are coming from. I appreciate that very much.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-29-04, 11:30 AM (EST)

315. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

It's interesting - I get the impression from several posts here that because Tech can provide a reference to a specific religious teaching that she presumably follows, that it somehow validates her beliefs on abortion.
Are my beliefs less valid because I do not follow any religion?

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 11:38 AM (EST)

316. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Not at all, diamond. But through the link Tech provided, we now can understand why she believes the way she does. We've not been afforded that understanding from you. Doesn't make the fact that you believe what you believe any less valid.

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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GlassJax 1062 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest"
03-29-04, 11:39 AM (EST)

318. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

It's scary how I agree with Nailbone so much.

Tactless, yet unrefined.

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-29-04, 01:18 PM (EST)

343. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 01:37 PM (EST)
Actually, Tech has yet to clarify whether the link provides an explanation of her beliefs or if it was just a definition of when a fetus becomes a full-fledged human being that was useful to her argument.
Other beliefs espoused in the link and footnote links:
"Abortions are not permitted for economic reasons, to avoid career inconveniences, or because the woman is unmarried."
"It follows from this simple approach, that as a general rule, abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term or through the act of childbirth."
"It is crucial to remember that when faced with an actual patient, a competent halachic authority must be consulted in every case."
This is not an attempt to ply my sophomoric wit. It is a sincere question.
TechNoir, does the link you provided genuinely reflect your beliefs?
I don't expect a sincere answer. I expect a deflection about the interference of government in our personal lives or a more personal attack on my intelligence or lack there of.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-29-04, 01:28 PM (EST)

344. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Who are you addressing? Your post is a reply to nailbone.

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I_Got_Nutn 897 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
03-29-04, 01:35 PM (EST)

345. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 02:03 PM (EST)
Is anyone else having a problem determining whom I was asking for clarification? I will edit my post.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:41 PM (EST)

373. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

I had no trouble understanding to whom it was addressed.
And good points BTW. That's where I was getting a lot of the info that lead me initially toward saying that maybe Jewish law was more pro-life than not.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-29-04, 03:55 PM (EST)

378. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

That's quite impressive, given that you read it after it was edited.
The reason I asked initially was because the wording sounded an awful lot like it was addressing something I had posted elsewhere, but it was also referencing the link that TechNoir posted and did not clearly address her directly. Since the post itself was actually a response to a post by nailbone (which you can see if you click "view all" to get the whole thread), it was not evident to me who I_Got_Nutn was addressing his question to.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:31 PM (EST)

370. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

I don't expect a sincere answer. I expect a deflection about the interference of government in our personal lives or a more personal attack on my intelligence or lack there of.
Wouldn't want to disappoint ...

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GlassJax 1062 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest"
03-29-04, 11:38 AM (EST)

317. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Are my beliefs less valid because I do not follow any religion?
Not at all Diamond, but Tech's link answers a lot of questions, when read in its entirity, that arise when people discuss this subject. If you could spell out your beliefs in that great of detail I think as many people would be thanking you just as much as they are thanking Tech.

Tactless, yet unrefined.

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Drive My Car 20045 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 11:44 AM (EST)

319. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

It does seem that some respect her beliefs more now that they have been explained in the context of her religion.
But what of those who believe that also, but have no religious teaching to base it on?
It's ok, because religion says?
I'm not getting it.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 11:58 AM (EST)

324. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

No, Bug, that's not what I said. We understand Tech's views better because they're in context with her religious views.
That doesn't invalidate others who have the same views for different reasons. It just gives us some background into why Tech believes as she does.

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-29-04, 12:41 PM (EST)

335. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 01:06 PM (EST)
Well, there's not a whole lot to explain. I base what I believe on observable reality. I believe in scientific facts over superstition and arbitrary rules. Science tells me that a fetus is not a person, but rather a parasitic organism (and by parasitic, I mean "living on, or deriving nourishment from, some other living animal").
I do not believe that a fetus has the right to live inside another person if that person does not want it there. Even if you could convince me that a fetus is a person, I still would not accept that the fetus's rights override a woman's right to determine what happens to her own body, as long as that fetus is contained within and dependent upon that woman.
I still find the whole "we just want an explanation" thing a little disingenuous. You can say that you're just trying to understand why someone believes something, but the fact is that as soon as a religious explanation was given, everyone suddenly backed off.
There should be no need to have to justify why I or anyone else believes something. From where I stand, providing a religious basis for a belief is no explanation at all, because I still don't understand why a person believes in religion in the first place. But I don't ask that question, because it's none of my business. If you choose to live by a set of rules dictated by your religion, that's your choice.
Everyone here always talks about "respecting other people's beliefs". To me, that means respecting a person's right to believe what they want, and conduct their own life according to those beliefs. It does not extend to requiring others to conduct thier lives according to your beliefs as well. The belief that a fetus is a person is not universal, by any stretch of the imagination, and yet so many people want to enshrine that belief into law. I cannot think of anything more disrespectful to the the beliefs of others than that.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:56 PM (EST)

337. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Pssst...
See this is where you needed that sparkly, flashing diamond!

Personally, I've known all along the basis of your arguments on this topic but then again I pay a fair amount of attention to you and know what you're a science oriented type person. Some call it stalking, I call it paying close attention to someone even if it means following them around the boards and to their homes at night and peeking through their windows.
*grin*
But I still say your opinion doesn't count cuz you're a heathen.

--is considered a heathen by some

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 01:00 PM (EST)

338. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

That was you?
Better than being considered a Heather.

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diamond 2307 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"
03-29-04, 01:03 PM (EST)

339. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Please, if there's anyone I'd like to be stalked by, it's you, misto. But, um, if you're going to look in my windows, just don't tell anyone about the mess, okay? I'm going to clean it up, really I am.

Would be open to more sparkle, but is also fiercely independent, which sometimes is good and sometimes is bad, so has never wanted to ask anyone to make a sigpic for her.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:18 PM (EST)

352. ".02"

Diamond,
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I can see where you’re coming from with the issue of Tech’s post and the reaction. I can’t say your assumption is wrong in terms of what it means.
My experience in discussing this is that some women have knee-jerk reactions with the “it’s my body” defense. Sometimes this is just what they ‘want’ to believe, and not something founded on reflection, beliefs, or science. To those who honestly believe that the unique DNA formed at conception should be viewed more as a life than it is, hearing how much it ‘isn’t’ separate from the mother is really tough. So yes, to hear that someone bases that belief on something of substance might well serve to ‘ease the pain’ of a pro-lifer and make it easier to carry on a conversation. (I’m not making any judgment as to the correctness/incorrectness of the 'pain' being eased, just trying to explain my opinion.)
To me, the fact that yours is based on a thoughtful evaluation of scientific data is absolutely equal to Tech’s ‘religious’ post.

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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:25 PM (EST)

355. "RE: .03"

First of all, I don't see anything "knee-jerk" about it.
My problem with making abortion illegal is that it won't stop it from happening. I'd rather women have a safe, legal option, than an unsafe, illegal one.
Y'all can argue forever about when life begins. It doesn't change the fact that women will still seek to end unwanted pregnancies. Maybe not you or me, but many will, and I don't want to revert to a time of back alley abortions.
My views do not make me pro-abortion, they make me pro-woman. There is a difference.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:41 PM (EST)

357. "RE: .03"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 03:11 PM (EST)
I wasn't saying all women do. And there's plenty of 'jerks' on the other side of the issue as well.
ETA: I agree with the problem of making it illegal, which is why I don't care to see Roe overturned. I'd rather see the two 'sides' agree to reduce the unwanted pregnancies, which won't happen as long as the fight is centered on Roe...

Knee-jerks of course.

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Lisapooh 12664 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:06 PM (EST)

380. "RE: .03"

I can't think of a more inaccurate and inflammatory phrase than pro-abortion anyway. I don't know anyone who is "pro-abortion". No one is holding a pep rally.
I consider abortion a tragedy. But I consider a rise in unloved, unwanted children, ill-equipped, uneducated, destitute mothers and unsanitary, dangerous, possibly lethal illegal abortions to be bigger tragedies and the inevitable consequences of outlawing abortions.
This bill is not about the Laci and Connors of the world - no matter how pretty they package it. I think many people see this bill for what it is - and the battle lines are forming over this and many other issues.
There is a total sea change in this country right now. It's interesting times we are living in. Scary times from where I sit. I hope people vote their conscious. We are moving further apart as a people. IMO this administration has done a lot to polarize the country.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:18 PM (EST)

382. "RE: .03"

But at least Bush has followed through on his promise to make us a more "humble" country on the world stage...
As far as pro-abortion goes, it stems directly from the polarization. There are so many people lobbying for overturning Roe, and so strongly, that any POSSIBLE infringement causes the other side to push back in defense. Then, that defensiveness comes across as being pro-abortion. Until that changes, we're never going to have positive conversations about how to keep choice legal, but make it obsolete...which is the best possible outcome IMO. (ok, so maybe it'll never become 'obsolete', but reduced...you know what I mean.)

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Lisapooh 12664 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:24 PM (EST)

386. "RE: .03"

obsolete is over-reaching. But, I think there are things that can and should be done to reduce the number of abortions. But those are also things that the "pro-life" (another term that pisses me off) contigent as a whole do not approve of.
Do you not think that deeming oneself "pro-life" is a little off-putting to those that are pro-choice? Because if one side is for life - than the other must, by definition, be against it. This does not start the debate off on good footing.

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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:36 PM (EST)

392. "RE: .03"

Totally agree, Pooh, with the pro-life. I called myself "pro-choice" for a long time because "pro-life" seemed so extremist and I didn't want to be lumped into that category. I now consider myself "pro-responsibility". Take responsibility for your own actions. Educate young people on sex and birth control. If you don't believe in birth control, then don't have sex. If that is too extreme for you, there is an effective family planning method to avoid pregnancy (or achieve) without birth control. "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" is an excellent book on explaining the method... and it really works.

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:36 PM (EST)

393. "RE: .03"

Exactly. I think anyone who feels abortions should be reduced (in positive, healthy ways...not with scare tactics, etc.) should be called pro-life.

I knew as soon as I typed it that obsolete was poorly chosen...same with knee-jerk. TOTALLY took the focus off of what I was saying in the post.

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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:18 PM (EST)

383. "RE: .03"

I used the "pro-abortion" term on purpose. While there has been a call elsewhere in this thread to not use blanket terms to describe one side of this issue, I've not seen anybody take offense to that. (Well, except for you. )
I consider abortion a tragedy. But I consider a rise in unloved, unwanted children, ill-equipped, uneducated, destitute mothers and unsanitary, dangerous, possibly lethal illegal abortions to be bigger tragedies and the inevitable consequences of outlawing abortions.
You've summed it up beautifully as usual, Pooh. Those concerns have no bearing on when life begins, or whos religion is right. It's about the fact that the situations exist to make legal abortion necessary in our society. No amount of law making, or moralizing is going to change that fact. Until we can come up with real alternatives to help these children, and the women who give them life, we can not turn back to a time when women had no rights, and were forced to seek tragic remedies, simply because of someone elses definition of life. As much as I would hope that my daughter never has to face that choice, I know that if she does have to, I would want her to have the best medical treatment available.

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Lisapooh 12664 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:30 PM (EST)

388. "RE: .03"

>You've summed it up beautifully as
>usual, Pooh.
well DUH.

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-29-04, 02:34 PM (EST)

356. "RE: .02"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 02:43 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 02:42 PM (EST)
Editted to say, True is a queen and so wise, and she said what I wanted to say better, I was just crabby. So I erased what I said and will now refer to "True" as she is so wise....
I am now going for a long hot bath, a valium a beer and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Okay, maybe not the valium. Or the beer....

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:06 PM (EST)

362. "RE: .02"

TT, people can have knee-jerk reactions on any topic. By knee-jerk, I mean a strong emotional reaction to a ‘debatable’ topic where no reasoning or logic is provided (or listened to for that matter). Something like this:
“It’s my body and I can do what I want with it.”
“But it has someone else’s DNA”
“I don’t care, it’s my body and I can do what I want with it.”
“Well doesn’t the father have a say?”
“No, it’s my body and I can do what I want with it.”
Am I saying that is how most women react? Heck no. Just saying I've seen that reaction more than once and it may explain some of what Diamond was experiencing.
As someone who cannot stand the concept of abortion (but wouldn’t care if Roe was amended into the constitution), I have little respect for someone who doesn’t at least give the topic some thought. I’m consistent with that on both sides. I have much LESS respect for a knee-jerk pro-lifer than I do for a thoughtful pro-choice individual.

And where you get any anti-woman stuff from my post I don't know. Women rock. Plus, in almost all RL experiences I’ve had with abortion, it’s been the guys that I blame for putting the woman in a position to have to make that choice…which can’t be an easy or fun one to make.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:36 PM (EST)

371. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

>
>I do not believe that a
>fetus has the right to
>live inside another person if
>that person does not want
>it there.
Even if it was by concious choice of the person to commit the act that put the fetus is in there to begin with?

>
>I still find the whole "we
>just want an explanation" thing
>a little disingenuous. You
>can say that you're just
>trying to understand why someone
>believes something, but the fact
>is that as soon as
>a religious explanation was given,
>everyone suddenly backed off.
>
I don't think anyone backed off, just acknowledged a better understanding.

>There should be no need to
>have to justify why I
>or anyone else believes something.
And no one asked you to justify. You wanted to know why we seemed to lighten up on Tech, which I don't think is actually true.

>From where I stand, providing
>a religious basis for a
>belief is no explanation at
>all, because I still don't
>understand why a person believes
>in religion in the first
>place. But I don't
>ask that question, because it's
>none of my business.
>If you choose to live
>by a set of rules
>dictated by your religion, that's
>your choice.
>
And if we choose to explain why we believe that way, and it's based on our religion, does that make our belief less valid to you?

>Everyone here always talks about "respecting
>other people's beliefs". To
>me, that means respecting a
>person's right to believe what
>they want, and conduct their
>own life according to those
>beliefs. It does not
>extend to requiring others to
>conduct thier lives according to
>your beliefs as well.
Agreed.

>The belief that a fetus
>is a person is not
>universal, by any stretch of
>the imagination, and yet so
>many people want to enshrine
>that belief into law.
>I cannot think of anything
>more disrespectful to the the
>beliefs of others than that.
>
I just think we need to define some things, like when is a fetus a person, etc. in a legal sense. What you believe is one thing, what I believe is another. Until someone says "it's this one", this will never be setled...probably won't anyway, but at least we will have a viable legal definition.

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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Lisapooh 12664 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:53 PM (EST)

377. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

>I just think we need to
>define some things, like when
>is a fetus a person,
>etc. in a legal sense.
> What you believe is
>one thing, what I believe
>is another. Until someone
>says "it's this one", this
>will never be setled...probably won't
>anyway, but at least we
>will have a viable legal
>definition.
How is defining it going to help? It's not going to bring any sort of consensus. Suppose the law says a fetus is a person at 37.5 weeks. Will you stop thinking life begins at conception? Will diamond change her mind about life not beginning until birth? What kind of resolution will it bring?
I consider it a life when it's viable outside the mother. I don't expect you or diamond to change your beliefs to mirror mine. What if you lose the "it's this one" argument? Will anything in your belief system change? What if your definition is accepted? Do you think diamond or I will suddenly accept your view?
I'm not sure what a legal definition would accomplish.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 11:55 AM (EST)

322. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Are my beliefs less valid because I do not follow any religion?
Yes they are less valid, you heathen.

--likes shiney things

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:01 PM (EST)

325. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Hey. My God-figure wants to kick your Goddess-figure's a$$.
Playground, 3 PM.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:12 PM (EST)

326. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Playground, 3 PM.
Weapons?

--ain't ascarit

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:18 PM (EST)

327. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Dood, they're deities. WTF they need with weapons?
I hope not. I mean, we're just gonna stand there and pass around the jug while they go at it, right?

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:24 PM (EST)

331. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

See I was thinkin' maybe putting alimit on their powers. You know, no unecessary invisibility or lightening bolts, that kind of thing. That's the only way to make it fair really otherwise you guy doesn't stand a chance.
Heh.

--takes the jug landru offers and takes a long hard pull

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:27 PM (EST)

333. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

I was thinkin' distract them and steal their underwear. But I'm just kinda odd that way.
Of course, it's not like you hadn't drunk from the jug already. No net gain here.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:29 PM (EST)

334. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Your guy wears undies? See my gal fight skyclad!
mistofleas --concedes that she has indeed already drunk from the jug and has found it good

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:20 PM (EST)

328. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Fight!! Fight!! Fight!!
I got $10 on Misto's Goddess-figure!

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:21 PM (EST)

329. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Suck-up.
I'm sure you'd bet Satan over Jesus, too.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:23 PM (EST)

330. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Damn straight!!

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

No way, man. I am pulling for Dook to go all the way, though. Same thing, right?

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 12:26 PM (EST)

332. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Post No Weasels.
You need to watch you some South Park, podner.
And yeah. Same thing. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your bizarre stance on this is related to some pool activity. And to there being nothing named Aggie in the dance.

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Devious Weasel 18756 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:46 PM (EST)

360. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

You rang?
It’s really tough to work when you folks are making so much noise in here.

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landruajm 6040 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 02:48 PM (EST)

361. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Posted--No Hunting
Not really, but Esbea just accused me of offing you over on the other thread. Thanks for the alibi.

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nailbone 27263 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 03:41 PM (EST)

374. "RE: *borrows a branch from BuckyKatts sarcasm tree*"

Move along

Cool new sig courtesy of Jslice o-

I do remember seeing the Jesus vs. Satan South Park, now that you mention it.
Yeah, it's pool related. and most Dook haters are waiting for the Nailbone curse to kick in.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 00:41 AM (EST)

193. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

LAST EDITED ON 03-28-04 AT 01:02 AM (EST)
--wonders if Margaret Atwoods creation of "Republic of Giliad" is all that far away
I've said it here before and I'll say it again, wherever I can, until I am not allowed to say it anymore. I wonder and fear this every single day.
*ETA: This was in response to Misto's post waaaay up there (#153?) I didn't realize the size of the curve.

I never quote or even listen to Howard Stern. But this quote in the news caught my eye. And when he's right, he's right. Paraphrase: "It's a culture war, people. And we're losing."

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 10:30 AM (EST)

201. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I re-read "Handmaids Tale" at least twice a year as it's one of my favorite books, but the past couple of times I've read it the similarities to the current "air" in the country frightens me more than it ever did in the past.
While I do look fabulous in red, the thought of wearing those white nun wings on my head constantly give me a *shudder*. I like to let my hair blow in the breeze.
Am I kidding? No, I'm dead serious. There are some factions out there that would be more than happy to see women put into catagories of "wife", "forced surrogate mother", "maid" and "unwoman". All for our own good of course. *shudder* How do I know this? I've spoken with one of them. Just once of course, then I ran away.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 10:42 AM (EST)

203. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I re-read it again last summer (prolly the 6th time overall) and got chills up my spine.
I am not sure if I'd be safe. Mr. Spidey had a kid before we met, wed and bred but was never married before. Are we a valid family?

Look on the bright side. No more bad hair days.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:00 AM (EST)

210. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I am not sure if I'd be safe. Mr. Spidey had a kid before we met, wed and bred but was never married before. Are we a valid family?
Let's see, all second marriages would be dissolved but since he wasn't actually married, Mr.Spidey would be fine, especially because he's fathered children...
You on the other hand, cannot bred anymore and obviously cannot take care of your own children (since you saw fit to get yourself "fixed") so they'll be given to more suitable people to raise properly and then your butt gets shipped to the Colonies.

--doesn't fear bad hair days but would hate to not be able to shave her legs

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LadyT 5567 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:13 PM (EST)

253. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I love that book and re read it often. It is scary, because I fear that someday it will happen and I am gonna be propped up behind some old televangilist with her husband *shudders*
~wonders what ever really happened to her anyway

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LadyT 5567 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:02 PM (EST)

250. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

>--wonders if Margaret Atwoods creation of
>"Republic of Giliad" is all
>that far away
Sweetie, you will look beautiful in your red burqa as you stroll down the street to get the eggs and meat. Remember, it's a beautiful Mayday out, isn't it?

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:30 PM (EST)

257. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Psst. Remember to only whisper "Mayday"

I got your back, Tishy.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:35 PM (EST)

258. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Hey did you all notice that Milk & Honey has oranges today? I've got a coupon for them.

--mayday

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 04:49 PM (EST)

261. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I hadn't noticed. My eyes were fixed on that traitor Richard Clarke hanging on The Wall. Oranges would be nice.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 04:59 PM (EST)

262. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I'm looking for a portrait of him to hang in my (federal government) office.

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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
03-28-04, 05:12 PM (EST)

263. "Payback swift, fierce for those who cross Bush"

azcentral.com had an AP story about what happens to "traitors" like Clarke. This last paragraph in the excerpt sums it up nicely.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0328hardball28.html
Excerpt:
WASHINGTON - President Bush is playing supercharged hardball in going after his own former anti-terrorism chief, Richard A. Clarke. It's a risky strategy that shows the single-mindedness of Bush and his re-election team in trying to deflect politically damaging criticism.
Loyalty is a hallmark of Bush's administration, with the president and his top lieutenants quick to turn on those who stray from the fold.
A week after a broadside that questioned Democratic rival John Kerry's commitment to U.S. troops and fitness to be president, standard operating procedure for the general election campaign, Bush's re-election machine unleashed a shock-and-awe campaign designed to discredit Clarke.
Bush's leadership after the Sept. 11 attacks is the guiding theme of his re-election campaign, intended to suggest the nation is safer with him as president. Clarke's claim that Bush ignored the threat from Osama bin Laden and waged a pointless war against Iraq's Saddam Hussein directly challenges that argument.
In his book Against All Enemies, Clarke predicted retribution from a White House "adept at revenge."
But Bush and his chief political adviser, Karl Rove, are essentially following the same game plan that the late Lee Atwater, an early political mentor of Rove's, used to get the first President Bush elected in 1988: define and undercut an opponent early with a fusillade of negative attacks.
"This team is tough. You cross them and they go after you and raise questions about you and your credibility rather than what you have to say," said Thomas Mann, a scholar with the Brookings Institution.

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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 01:40 PM (EST)

346. "Clarke"

Quick comment.
Clarke seems like a classic bureaucratic self-promoter, who always wants to overstate his importance. It's easy to believe that he's angry with Condi Rice, since she didn't give him the promotion that he thought he deserved --- his comment that she reacted to his first mention of al-Qaeda as if she didn't know what al-Qaeda was is so catty that Omarosa could have said it, and is obviously untrue: everyone who follows foreign policy (even me!) knew what al-Qaeda was after the African embassy bombings in 1998, let along the U.S.S. Cole bombing in Oct. 2000.
That said, two things are definitely true: the Bush administration wasn't sufficiently focused on the threat of domestic terrorism prior to 9/11 (or the arrest of the "20th hijacker" would have been acted upon), and there was definitely a policy to get rid of Saddam Hussein prior to 9/11 (in fact, Congress passed a bill making it official U.S. policy in 1998, and I've mentioned the reasons related to Saddam's defiance of the peace treaty ending the Gulf War that made that policy imperative). These allegations don't seem controversial, at least not to me. The controversial part seems to be Clarke's current comments that the Clinton administration was more focused on terrorism than the Bush administration was, which contradicts his comments in 2002 -- and the Bush strategy has been to focus on his 2002 comments.
I expect that Clarke was lying in his 2002 closed-door testimony and is also lying now. In 2002, Clarke probably thought that if he blasted Clinton enough, he could advance even though he had supported both John McLain (in the primaries) and Al Gore (in the election) against Bush. Now, of course, he wants to get even. (Hey, the guy's best friend is Rand Beers -- who has been John Kerry's foreign policy advisor since last May -- and the two of them are teaching a course together at Harvard right now.) In fact, I doubt that either administration cared much about Muslim terrorism in the Middle East, because they didn't want to damage the balancing act that the U.S. was playing between the oil sheikdoms and Israel.
This entire controversy actually seems pretty straightforward, especially for Washington.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 00:58 AM (EST)

293. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

But set up a camera so that you can get snapshots of the faces of the people who see it for the first time. Please? For me?

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LadyT 5567 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 06:09 PM (EST)

266. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Well, OFLadyT gave me some butter so I can moisturize my hands. It's the little things I miss

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-28-04, 10:19 PM (EST)

274. "You ladies are freaking me out!"

So, I'll have to read this scary scary scary book.
I am very scared.

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 10:27 PM (EST)

277. "RE: You ladies are freaking me out!"

You will be way more scared after you read it ...

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:11 PM (EST)

279. "RE: You ladies are freaking me out!"

I'd send you my copy t-tramp, but it's falling apart from having been read so much.
Listen to Auntie Tech, she's right, you will be more than scared after you read it.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:35 PM (EST)

281. "RE: You ladies are freaking me out!"

TT, PM me your necessary info and I'll send you my copy. Just so long as I get it back someday. I have no idea what I would do in Gilead without my handbook.

You'd better hurry up and read it though. Reading (and working and owning property) is outlawed for women in the Republic of Gilead.

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 11:43 PM (EST)

282. "RE: You ladies are freaking me out!"

You'd better hurry up and read it though. Reading (and working and owning property) is outlawed for women in the Republic of Gilead.
Spidey, please stop tempting all of the women here with words. From now on you may only post in a manner which is befitting a woman. With pretty pictures.

--

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-29-04, 00:27 AM (EST)

288. "RE: You ladies are freaking me out!"

Okay, you are further freaking me out, so I must go and BUY my own copy as I wish to own property of this dang book in the event I am found without it. I shall go post haste to Amazon.com and order one up now.

Excellent siggy by JSlice
-Is still very frightened but knows she will wake up from the dream with big brother watching in 1984 and "I" will be "We" and I will eat pink goo and rock myself to sleep as I take my soma now thank you very much

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 00:41 AM (EST)

290. "RE: You ladies are freaking me out!"

You'll be lucky if you get pink goo. Soma, no way sweetie, no drugs, alcohol, smoking...anything that interfers with your ability to breed.

--starts making t-tramps red habit

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Mizz Eve 368 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
03-27-04, 01:01 PM (EST)

152. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I do agree that this Bill creates a slippery slope that will eventually erode arbortion rights, but really those rights are eroding anyway.
In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833, 860 (1992), Justices O'Connor, Kennedy and Souter reasoned:
"We have seen how time has overtaken some of Roe's factual assumptions: advances in maternal health care allow for abortions safe to the mother later in pregnancy than was true in 1973 (citations ommitted) and advances in neonatal care have advanced viability to a point somewhat earlier. Compare Roe, 410 U.S. at 160, with Webster (citations ommitted) But these facts go only to the scheme of time limits on the realization of competing interests, and the divergences from the factual premises of 1973 have no bearing on the validity of Roe's central holding, that viability marks the earliest point at which the State's interest in fetal life is constitutionally adequate to justify a legislative ban on nontherapeutic abortions. The soundness or unsoundness of that constitutional judgment in no sense turns on whether viability occurs at approximately 28 weeks, as was usual at the time of Roe, at 23 to 24 weeks, as it sometimes does today, or at some moment even slightly earlier in pregnancy, as it may if fetal respiratory capacity can somehow be enhanced in the future. Whenever it may occur, the attainment of viability may continue to serve as the critical fact, just as it has done since Roe was decided; which is to say that no change in Roe's factual underpinning has left its central holding obsolete, and none supports an argument for overruling it."
As the moment of viability becomes closer to conception, the timeframe to legally terminate the pregnancy will also lessen. I agree with this "viability" stance. I do not agree that there is a seperate human life at conception. Until the fetus can survive apart from the mother, it is not viable and does not have the same rights as the mother.
The Bill discussed above, contradicts the "viability" holdings of the Supreme Court because it does not take into account that at the time a crime is committed, the fetus may not have been viable.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 02:18 PM (EST)

255. "Here's some more to chew on."

From here:
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040327%2F2313075583.htm&sc=1110
Courts to Hear 3 Abortion-Ban Challenges
By DAVID KRAVETS
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - A historic legal battle over abortion begins in courtrooms coast to coast Monday as three federal judges take up requests to derail the first substantial congressional limitation on abortion since the Supreme Court's landmark Roe v. Wade decision.
The simultaneous litigation centers on legislation President Bush signed last year banning a type of late-term abortion: what lawmakers defined as ``partial-birth'' abortion and what doctors call ``intact dilation and extraction'' - or D&X.

The three trials will be filled with impassioned arguments on whether the law violates constitutional rights, as well as graphic, highly technical and conflicting testimony from medical experts.
``This case is going to be made or lost on the experts,'' said U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton, who is presiding over the San Francisco litigation.
The National Abortion Federation, Planned Parenthood Federation of America and a handful of doctors sued in San Francisco, New York and Lincoln, Neb., to overturn the law. They say its language could criminalize more common types of abortion and could be a step toward abolishing abortion in the United States.
Courts and doctors have construed the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision to mean abortions can be legally performed until the ``point of viability,'' when a healthy fetus can survive outside the womb. That milestone is usually reached 24 weeks to 28 weeks after conception.
In the outlawed procedure, generally performed before that point in the second trimester and occasionally in the third, a fetus is partially delivered before being killed, usually by puncturing its skull.
The number of the procedures performed annually in the United States is estimated at 2,200 to 5,000, out of 1.3 million total abortions.
The Partial-Birth Abortion Act carries a maximum two-year prison term for doctors convicted of performing the procedure, but it has been put on hold pending the outcome of the litigation, which appears likely to reach the Supreme Court.
The high court struck down a similar Nebraska law almost four years ago because it lacked an exception for procedures done to preserve a woman's health. Anticipating this problem, Congress declared that ``a partial birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman'' and is ``outside the standard of medical care.''
The abortion groups disagree, saying that doctors may find themselves with no good alternative to the banned procedure to protect a woman's life or health if problems develop.
The American Medical Association does not encourage use of D&X, but says it should not be banned. The College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says alternatives to D&X usually exist, but that in some circumstances it may be the best procedure.
Opponents of the ban also argue that the language in the federal legislation is vague and could be interpreted as covering more common, less controversial procedures, including ``dilation and evacuation.'' Known as D&E, it is the most common method of second-trimester abortion. An estimated 140,000 D&Es take place in the United States annually.
``We will do everything to keep this law from taking place,'' said Louise Melling, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Reproductive Freedom Project.
The U.S. Justice Department, arguing Congress' case in all three courtrooms, will also address the tricky physiological question of when a fetus can begin to feel pain.
The law says that the procedure should be outlawed because of ``its disturbing similarity to the killing of a newborn infant'' and its ``disregard for infant human life.''
Justice Department attorney Mark Quinlivan wrote in court briefs that the act ``is a clear reflection of Congress' well-informed judgment that the public interest is best served by prohibiting partial-birth abortions.''
The government's efforts to prove that the banned procedure is never necessary sparked a separate controversy over medical privacy.
To support its argument, the government sought records from abortion providers - and won only a partial victory. U.S. District Judge Richard Casey, hearing the case in Manhattan, ruled that New York-Presbyterian Hospital must comply, and a judge in Michigan issued a similar ruling.
Judge Hamilton of San Francisco ruled that medical records from another hospital must remain private, as did a federal judge in Philadelphia on Friday in a similar case. Also Friday, the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld an lower-court order blocking release of records from a Chicago hospital.
While Planned Parenthood and other doctors and groups involved in the suit called the request an invasion of privacy, the government demanded the records - absent patient's names - in hopes of answering the central claim by the bill's opponents that the procedure is sometimes medically necessary.

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TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 03:23 PM (EST)

260. "RE: Here's some more to chew on."

Thanks. You reminded me that I need to write a check to Planned Parenthood.

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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-28-04, 06:11 PM (EST)

268. "RE: Here's some more to chew on."

Hey, no problem.

Feminists on abortion: Susan B. Anthony: "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869 Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-29-04, 11:57 AM (EST)

323. "Wow"

Surprising that someone could actually write this:
Opponents of the ban also argue that the language in the federal legislation is vague and could be interpreted as covering more common, less controversial procedures, including ``dilation and evacuation.''
Less controversial?!

Sliced.
2 Corinthians 4: 7-15

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 07:28 AM (EST)

300. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Hi! Flying home today! woohooo!!!

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mistofleas 8043 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 08:38 AM (EST)

301. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Nice swoop there JV honey.
Travel safely, come visit as soon as you get home and let us know you arrived safely.
*sends safe travel thoughts to JV*

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Emily RugBurn 663 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
03-29-04, 01:52 PM (EST)

347. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

Wow -- this discussion is lurker’s heaven. Just wanted to chime in to say I’ve read every single post in this thread and I am thoroughly impressed with everyone’s ability to maintain their sanity and their tempers while discussing the most controversial of controversial issues. What a read – I enjoyed it immensely – if only society as a whole could communicate in such a manner… ahh, the dream.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed – I feel that I have taken something positive away from this most intelligent discussion. Kudos!
~ EmRB

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aethelstan 4435 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
03-29-04, 02:05 PM (EST)

348. "Welcome Emily!"

Welcome! Stay a while. (We need more Canucks over here!)
Sit down. Put your feet up. Start your own thread!

© Kittyloaf Creations, 2004
Loquatrix has just started posting here too!

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Emily RugBurn 663 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
03-29-04, 02:15 PM (EST)

351. "RE: Welcome Emily!"

Thanks for the warm (Canadian!) welcome, aethelstan!
Definitely working on starting my own thread -- I've got about 3000 things on my mind that I'd like to share with you all - I just need to pick one!
Keep on keepin' on!
~ EmRB

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Tiggertramp 3141 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-29-04, 03:18 PM (EST)

365. "RE: Welcome Emily!"

Welcome to OT Emily! I saw you over at Top Model...stay awhile..it is fun, and addicting!

Excellent siggy by JSlice

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DSpunk 3270 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
03-29-04, 02:10 PM (EST)

350. "Swoop"

LAST EDITED ON 03-29-04 AT 02:11 PM (EST)
What? I'm Drunk.

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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:08 PM (EST)

381. "lock please"

die stupid thread die!
not that there isn't a lot of interesting reading here, it's just so damned difficult to follow

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J I M B O 6839 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:20 PM (EST)

384. "i lvoe these!"

granted, i'd hate if every one were like this, but the little pockets of conversation that arise, the evolution of the debate, the passionate arguments made. awesome if you ask me! it's like a message board within a message board.
i guess at some point we should stop using sig pics though...keep it a little less taxing.

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Lisapooh 12664 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:27 PM (EST)

387. "RE: i lvoe these!"

....he says with his sig pic in place.
and the tone is overall pretty civil - why lock it dabs?

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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:31 PM (EST)

389. "BANG!"

nothing against the content, having to scroll the screen right then left then right then left so much is just making me seasick

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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:35 PM (EST)

391. "Feel free to..."

start a new thread if it would make you happy.

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Lisapooh 12664 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:36 PM (EST)

394. "RE: BANG!"

we've made lots of progress - I'll sum it up for you so you won't have to read it anymore.
minds changed: 0
barbs tossed: 37
hands wrung: 136 (that's pairs - not individuals)
things accomplished: 0
names called: 2
feelings hurt: 57
misunderstandings started: 60
misunderstandings excellerated: 65
misunderstandings resolved: 0
it's about par for the course on these kinds of threads. 10% of the babies are gonna be gay anyway - and then we'll just have to worry about whether or not they should get married. It's a condundrum.

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FarmBoy 2618 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson"
03-29-04, 04:23 PM (EST)

385. "RE: Senate passes Unborn Victims of Violence Act"

I just wanted to see if my 'puter could handle a thread this big.

Bovinated BR549- An Original Draco Masterpiece
Your WSC3 SR Winner

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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
03-29-04, 04:34 PM (EST)

390. "Locking"

OK, I can't even read this thread any longer because it weaves more than Jeff Garcia after picking up a young woman in a bar. (Really.) And dabo asked for the thread to die, and I always try to do what dabo says.
So ... locking.

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