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"Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 04:23 AM (EST)
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"Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
List 'em. It'll let people skip whole episodes on the DVD sets.

Remember the book of secrets they supposedly showed all new series writers? I think it's missing a few lines paragraphs chapters points.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... HistoryDetective 05-24-10 1
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... blacknwhitedog 05-24-10 2
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... true 05-24-10 3
   I'm wondering... zombiebaby 05-24-10 4
       RE: I'm wondering... Breezy 05-24-10 5
           RE: I'm wondering... HistoryDetective 05-24-10 6
               RE: I'm wondering... zombiebaby 05-24-10 7
                   RE: I'm wondering... Tummy 05-24-10 8
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... michel 05-24-10 12
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... ohmyheck 05-24-10 20
           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... michel 05-25-10 35
               RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... ohmyheck 05-25-10 40
                   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 05-26-10 41
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 05-24-10 22
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 05-24-10 23
           Robert Anton Wilson and #23 Outfrontgirl 05-24-10 24
               RE: Robert Anton Wilson and #23 Flowerpower 05-30-10 57
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 05-25-10 34
           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... michel 05-25-10 36
               RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 05-26-10 42
               RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Flowerpower 05-30-10 58
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Chez 05-25-10 31
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... bacon 05-25-10 32
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 05-25-10 33
           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... michel 05-25-10 37
               RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 05-25-10 38
                   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... michel 05-25-10 39
                       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 05-26-10 44
                           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... michel 05-26-10 45
 RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 05-24-10 9
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... BOYmeetsREALITY 05-24-10 10
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 05-24-10 13
           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... BOYmeetsREALITY 05-24-10 16
 RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 05-24-10 11
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... BOYmeetsREALITY 05-24-10 14
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... weltek 05-24-10 19
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Tahj 05-24-10 21
           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Snidget 05-24-10 25
               RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 05-24-10 26
                   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Snidget 05-24-10 27
                       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 05-24-10 28
                           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Snidget 05-25-10 30
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Tummy 05-24-10 15
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... zombiebaby 05-24-10 17
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... zipperhead 05-24-10 18
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 05-25-10 29
 a few more questions Outfrontgirl 05-26-10 43
 Ben & Hurley zombiebaby 05-27-10 46
   YAY! moonbaby 05-27-10 47
 Alt endings Outfrontgirl 05-27-10 48
   RE: Alt endings Estee 05-31-10 59
 interesting post Outfrontgirl 05-28-10 49
   In the words of Ben Linus... zombiebaby 05-28-10 50
   RE: interesting post michel 05-28-10 51
   RE: interesting post Tummy 05-28-10 52
       Letting Go. michel 05-28-10 53
           RE: Letting Go. Tummy 05-29-10 54
               RE: Letting Go. michel 05-29-10 55
 RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Loree 05-30-10 56
   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... weltek 06-01-10 60
       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... mrc 06-01-10 61
           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 06-01-10 62
           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... weltek 06-01-10 63
               RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... dabo 06-01-10 64
                   RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... mrc 06-01-10 65
                       RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... weltek 06-01-10 66
                           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... michel 06-01-10 67
           RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 06-01-10 68
               RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... Outfrontgirl 06-01-10 69
               RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ... michel 06-02-10 70
 Food for Thought mrc 06-05-10 71
   RE: Food for Thought CTgirl 06-05-10 72
       RE: Food for Thought michel 06-05-10 73
   RE: Food for Thought Outfrontgirl 06-05-10 74
       RE: Food for Thought mrc 06-06-10 75
           RE: Food for Thought Outfrontgirl 06-06-10 76
               RE: Food for Thought Outfrontgirl 06-06-10 77
                   RE: Food for Thought mrc 06-06-10 79
       RE: Food for Thought michel 06-06-10 78
           Can it AyaK 10-02-10 80
               RE: Can it michel 10-12-10 81
 Good News! dabo 10-15-10 82
 They made it all up. mrc 09-27-11 83
   RE: They made it all up. Estee 09-27-11 84
   RE: They made it all up. zombiebaby 10-26-11 85
       RE: They made it all up. agman 10-28-11 86

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HistoryDetective 9516 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 08:37 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Part of me wants to watch the entire series start to finish so I can enjoy the answers that were (eventually) provided, but another part of me would find that so incredibly frustrating because there were so many things that were never addressed. I'm cutting-and-pasting two of my earlier questions:

When we first learned about the Others, we saw glimpses of them walking through the jungle: single file, barefoot, dirty, and (if I remember correctly) one of them dragging a stuffed animal. The Others that have played an active role in the last couple of seasons have not resembled that at all. What's the explanation?

When Kate, Sawyer, and Jack were in the cages in Others Village, the stewardess (Cyndy, I believe) and children from Oceanic 815 showed up. Cyndy told the prisoners, "We're here to watch." What was that all about?

I guess I could live without an explanation for the second one, but I really, really, REALLY want an explanation for the first one. Despite their claims otherwise, I don't think that the writers had a clue where they were going at several stages in this series. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy the ride, but I do feel a bit frustrated.

I won't even mention Walt...

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blacknwhitedog 6528 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 09:02 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I rather agree- I think the writers went into seasons 1 & 2 without a clear end-plan. At season 3 they decided they had to write an ending to the whole saga and the show really changed- re-watching the pilot some of the things really made no sense at all in the context of the finally (ie Walt). Even Smokey changed quite a bit. But what could they do? Seasons 1 & 2 were water under the bridge so to speak.


Syren 2007


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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 09:13 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I don't think it's unreasonable to have written a TV pilot without having a clear story that would play out over 6 seasons.

Stuff happened over time, like the actor playing Walt, the writers, etc. that caused the plot to shift over time. Perfectly understandable to me.

The one thing that I'd have liked a better answer for is the numbers. Such a huge emphasis was placed on those numbers early on, that it is a let down to have them expained away as meaning nothing.

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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 09:32 AM (EST)
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4. "I'm wondering..."
if a lot can be explained that this was just part of the island story. The Others, the "rules", even Walt will be chalked up to this being Jacob's reign on the island and the way he saw and wanted things done.

Ben mentioned at the end to Hurley that he did not have to be like Jacob and he could let people off the island, maybe make his own kind of rules.

I think this is what I like about the ending. It does let you imagine and fill in the "holes" with your own theories.

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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 09:55 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: I'm wondering..."
I agree. All those unanswered things were Jacob's way. Hurley could do his own thing.
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HistoryDetective 9516 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 10:09 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: I'm wondering..."
LAST EDITED ON 05-24-10 AT 10:46 AM (EST)

That seems like a very ad hoc explanation to me --- and not very satisfying as a result. I really enjoyed this series, so I am not trying to slam it at the end ... but I am alternating between satisfaction, sadness, and frustration. I can appreciate that the writers did not know every twist along the way when they penned the pilot, but I have patiently trusted them over the course of six years, trusted that when they did make decisions, that when they did introduce mysteries, that they would present some viable explanation for them somewhere along the journey. They crafted one hell of a ride, so I hate to appear ungrateful for the hours and hours of entertainment and contemplation they have provided, but in the end I did expect a little more than just "inconsistent plots and/or plot holes were the result of Jacob enforcing chaotic rules."

ETA: "not" in "did not know"

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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 10:37 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: I'm wondering..."
I can see where you would feel that way.

Although I loved the episode and was satisfied I feel like the Flash Sideways ending/twist overshadowed the real ending of Jack dying. Which in my opinion is the real ending.

It could be seen as pandering to get a "happy ending" for all. However, I admit I bought it. I've decided to let go about the other loose ends and fill in myself. I am going with my initial feelings during and immediately after which is I loved it.

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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 10:45 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: I'm wondering..."
I'm going to channel Zombie, otherwise my head would explode because really I feel more like HD.

I'm assuming that Sideways/Forward Purgatory was Jack's purgatory.

I've already talked about my two biggest sticking points so I'll leave it at that.

I kind of wish there had been no Sideways. I think I would have been much more satisfied with just the island ending. And I would have cried more.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 12:32 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LAST EDITED ON 05-24-10 AT 12:33 PM (EST)

Here are a few thoughts on those questions.

>When we first learned about the
>Others, we saw glimpses of
>them walking through the jungle:
>single file, barefoot, dirty, and
>(if I remember correctly) one
>of them dragging a stuffed
>animal. The Others that have
>played an active role in
>the last couple of seasons
>have not resembled that at
>all. What's the explanation?

The people that kidnapped Walt dressed up like hillbillies to hide how well they were organized. Part masquerade, part back to basics, hippy style, such as we saw with Lennon at the temple.


>When Kate, Sawyer, and Jack were
>in the cages in Others
>Village, the stewardess (Cyndy, I
>believe) and children from Oceanic
>815 showed up. Cyndy told
>the prisoners, "We're here to
>watch." What was that all
>about?

I think this was answered back when Ben said they were the good guys. The tailies that had been taken by the Others had to wonder which side was good, which was bad. With Ana Lucia and Libby getting killed while with our Losties, Cindy could certainly have her doubts.


>I won't even mention Walt...

Walt's story really ended when Jacob saw that he wasn't what he had expected. Walt wasn't a candidate anymore so he was allowed to leave. All his subsequent "apparitions" had to be smokey preparing the long con on the Losties, Locke in particular.

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ohmyheck 1919 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 03:09 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LAST EDITED ON 05-24-10 AT 03:11 PM (EST)

It couldn't have been the smoke monster, he can only take the form of dead people. Walt never died.

ETA: And I thought Cindy and the kids were there for Juliet's trial and the subsequent planned execution for killing Pickett?

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-25-10, 07:11 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Eventually, everyone dies...
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ohmyheck 1919 desperate attention whore postings
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05-25-10, 10:02 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Of course, but for instance, at the end of season 3, Walt was alive. Smokey couldn't have taken his form.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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05-26-10, 00:47 AM (EST)
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41. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Well, games have rules, you see.

I think the "rules" (ambiguous as they were) didn't all have the same force behind them. There was obviously some supernatural enforcement behind the stab him before he says anything to you malarky, for example. Perhaps there was supernatural enforcement behind Jacob and MIB not being able to kill one another, perhaps they were just psychologically incapable of violating one of Mother's rules (which at best they grasped in terms of their own particular arrested developments).

So, what I'm getting to, as a matter of practical application of shapeshifting MIB probably went through a learning curve, discovered what worked best for him and what didn't work so well, and developed his own rules for that which he followed in general but could "break" from time to time depending on circumstances. These rules would have evolved as matters of practicality and would be something as follows:

It is better to pick a primary form and stick to it as much as possible.
It is better to interact with as few people as possible.
Big groups are very problematic and should be divided into smaller groups whenever possible.
A familiar face is advantageous.
It is better not to copy someone living on the island whom you would have to avoid at all times.

Anyway, as far as Walt goes, in the Times Talk they did reveal they had developed a reason within the internal reality of the show for what happened. Basically, the Others were very interested in Walt because he was special and they wanted to learn about him. But rather than being special in a way they could understand and use, for instance being able to communicate with the dead, Walt was powerful and frightening and they couldn't understand it. He was scary special. So they decided to work out something to get him off the island.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 07:52 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LAST EDITED ON 05-24-10 AT 08:23 PM (EST)

HD, I can't answer much but I've read the answer to this one:

>>>When we first learned about the Others, we saw glimpses of them walking through the jungle: single file, barefoot, dirty, and (if I remember correctly) one of them dragging a stuffed animal. The Others that have played an active role in the last couple of seasons have not resembled that at all. What's the explanation?

David Fury, the Emmy-winning writer responsible for Walkabout, Special, Solitary and Numbers (who created the backstory for and brought into focus the characters of Locke, Walt, Sayid, Hurley), gave an interview after he left the show where he talks about how some things evolved.

He said the Others were originally conceived as people who had gone primitive from their long time on the island. The Whispers were originally supposed to be the Others (and they continued to use them like that at least through the episode where Shannon was killed and Cindy kidnapped). At the time he created the initial whispering, he didn't expect the Others to turn into the very different charactes we saw when they kidnapped Walt. From the way he says it, the Deliverance style Others were not in disguise; that was their end of Season 1 concept.

With that information, my inference would be that they were still unsure about the Others when they developed Season 2, as there are primitive others stalking the Tailies, and bearded Deliverance Others dealing with Jack and Co. By the end of Season 2, they had decided to go with more sophisticated Others, operating out of the hut village where they had the dock and the boat that Mike took.

The fake beards would be a retrofit to explain the Deliverance look, so that it wouldn't be obvious that the writers had changed their notion of the Others.

By Season 3 premiere, the Others live in Otherton and bake muffins and have a Book Club, and I think that Ben's ordering out Goodman and Ethan to find survivors and get lists was again something to tie into previous season events (Season 1 Ethan's scary presence and Season 2 Goodman's infiltration). In Season 2 they had introduced a list and the idea that the Others were collecting the Good people and children -- a storyline that was later dropped.

Ben ordered lists, but that never went anywhere. For awhile it seemed that Jacob was evaluating people who showed up at the island, but later they went with Jacob pre-selecting people and knowing when they came -- no need for lists.

Cindy and the kids popped in and presented the idea that the Others weren't as bad as they appeared what with all the putting people into cages. Cindy appeared brainwashed or under Stockholm syndrome.

Cindy and the kids were with the group that got mortared by Widmore, and that entire group perished except for Smocke and Jack. I live near a guy who did extra work on Season 6, who was one of the Temple people who ended up with Smocke. He confirmed that his group was all dead (on a local forum).

It REALLY bothers me that they kept Cindy and the kids around all that time and then mortared them off screen. I really didn't want to see the kids blown apart, but it wasn't great for them to disappear and nothing ever to be said about them again. They were ultimately pointless characters, who may have had a storyline originally, but then didn't.

As for Walt, Fury developed his character, and left it deliberately open. He had special powers that the Others were interested in. In other interviews, the Creators admitted that they were thrown for a loop when Malcolm grew too fast to continue into a story that was supposed to be confined to 90 days. They had to write him out, and they had said that before Season 2 ended. Unfortunately they sailed him off on a boat without disclosing anything much about the point of his character.

David Fury developed the Numbers after he was told they needed a set of six cool numbers for Hurley. He explains in the interview about how he used numbers like 8 and 15 that were already part of the show, and how 42 came from Hitchhiker's Guide. 42 was mathematician and Looking Glass writer Lewis Carroll's favorite number, and I know that Douglas Adams knew that, but don't think Fury knew it.

I think he must have gotten 23 from Darlton. There was an old interview with one of the two where they talk about Robert Anton Wilson, who wrote an essay on the Number 23, so I know the Lost writers knew about the cult of 23. It's also got a few notable mentions in "The Third Policeman" -- the book they told us to read that Desmond had in the Hatch. (A book in which there is a substance for omnium that is probably a good genesis for the magic light. It's also a book where the main character discovers that he's dead at the end of the book, and in Hell.)

108 is a mystical number too. That was not invented by LOST, just appropriated.

In the Lost Experience, which I didn't play but have read about, they made up some guy named Valenzetti who had an equation. You can look it up in Lostpedia. I never cared about that answer because to me it's less interesting than the real symbolism of the numbers they picked, but it's supposed to explain why those numbers were punched into the computer.

THE MONSTER
Again, Fury puts the kibosh on the idea that the smoke monster was originally conceived as MIB or Jacob's brother. Originally it was thought of as the supernatural element to their Survivor/Lord of the Flies concept, and Fury saw it as a Forbidden Planet type monster of the id. (Which would explain why it used to uproot trees.)

Then there was the idea given (by Rousseau?) that it was a security system. I think it was less important what the monster was in the beginning than that there be something utterly terrifying and inexplicable to the castaways. Also, it discouraged their exploration of the island. Darlton has said in a recent interview that they didn't want to follow a classic desert island structure where the castaways explore the island and build a good shelter and all that. The monster presence probably facilitated their going another direction.

Originally they had a concept put together in five days, and a hurry up Pilot. ABC had asked for a show to compete with Survivor, a Lord of the Flies desert island concept. They didn't think it was a series. ABC ordered 12 episodes, and they set out to make 12 episodes of the most ground-breaking TV they could do, something that might become another Prisoner or Twin Peaks.

Then because of the ratings, ABC told them to make a long series out of it, and they had to scramble and come up with the mythology. I believe they had the idea all along that the island had special properties, and as Jack said, they always planned for it to end with him closing his eye and dying where he landed.

After the shock of last night, I believe that what they originally intended was to write a tale of Purgatory, of bad acts redeemed by works. Thus the clues they threw out by mentioning books where you find out the character is dead or dying.

Problem was, people guessed early on that the island was Purgatory, and they had this ratings monster to keep going. So they denied categorically that it was Purgatory; they promised it was not in Hurley's head in the mental institution either. However, that gave them another problem. The things that happen in Purgatory or a troubled brain ultimately don't need to have rational explanations, so they were stuck with pseudo-science. Then they went to time travel, and eventually went all out magical mystical godlike powers.

The Flash Sideways was not conceived until pre-Season 6, when they needed a new kind of flash device. And I think they did intend for it to be an Alt that they had created with a variable in the timeline, Jughead slash Incident.

They didn't write the Finale script until March or April, when much of the Season had already been filmed. I think at that time they decided to get their Purgatory in. I need to rewatch the Finale, but I lay awake last night spinning over the Flash Sideways events, and in no way do they make sense as any kind of purgatory for people who died years after 2007.

Nor is it a happy place, not with Keamy in it. Nor is it Jack's personal purgatory, as their are several storylines that the Jack character is not part of and not at all aware of. Nor are Ben and Hurley's stories in any way intertwined ... nor did they bring Richard Alpert into it, although Ethan was there.

Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation is usually correct. The writers changed their minds along the way, and right up to the end. I think to enjoy it I have to look at it as improv.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-24-10, 08:07 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Fury interviews:
Early, tells where he was coming from ... Buffy and Angel, Joss Whedon.

http://www.whedon.info/David-Fury-Lost-Series-Davidfury.html

After Fury left the show and went to work on 24.
avid_Fury" target="_blank">http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lostpedia_Interviewavid_Fury

Excerpting portions .... but read it all.

Lostpedia: What are your thoughts about the evolution of Locke's character since you wrote “Walkabout"? Are there things that surprised you? Would you have done anything different?

It’s difficult for me to comment on Locke’s “evolution,” since I wasn’t able to watch the show regularly after the second season. Only saw a few episodes of Season 3, and none of Season 4 (though I hear the latter’s been consistently great). The only thing I will say is that Locke was the most interesting character to write, because of the complexities of his psyche.

Despite what was revealed in: “Walkabout”, he could, and possibly should, have remained more of an enigma. After a while, all the mystery and potential menace was stripped from him, in favor of the Others. One thing I might have done differently -- I probably would not have focused so much on Locke’s “father issues” since that was the focal point of Jack’s flashbacks and motivations.

Lostpedia: How much of the Monster’s mythology were you made aware of when writing “Walkabout”?

There was no mythology to speak of in place during the early episodes of the series. We were building it as we went along, discussing possibilities. Metaphorically, the monster was just the great unknown threat, the imminent danger around the corner that potentially haunts us all… Some thought of it as a monster of the id, much like in Forbidden Planet -- that maybe it appeared differently to everyone who saw it.

The most tangible thought, as explained later by Rousseau, was that it functioned as a security system set up by the island’s creators/early residents… whatever we later decided the answer was. For Locke, clearly, the monster was the “soul” of the island that was responsible for his “miracle.”
.............

Lostpedia: The Whispers featured right at the end of “Solitary”. Do you know what they are?

I can’t tell you what they are now, but I can tell you what they WERE. They were supposed to be the Others, lurking in the jungle. At that time, we hadn’t yet settled on what the Others would be. Since they were undefined, I had imagined they were going to be more feral, gone native… One might say “Reaver-ish.” (I wouldn’t, but one might.) I just didn’t imagine they were going to be spirit-gum, fake beard wearing, boat driving, faux hillbillies... as done in the season finale. My bad.

Lostpedia: Is the black smoke intended to be interpreted that Smokey has a sinister nature?

Ya got me.
..............

Lostpedia: Was time-travel ever mentioned while you worked on “Lost”? Do you know how long the idea has existed?

There was an exchange (pitched by J.J. when he and I broke the story) in an early draft of “Solitary” when Rousseau tells Sayid she had been part of a research team. Sayid asks her what they were researching. She replies: “Time.” The network saw that draft and asked us to remove the line. They were very timid about anything that smacked of Sci-Fi during the first season. I can only assume they’ve come around.
.............

Lostpedia: Speaking of the Numbers, who came up with them? What is their origin, and why those numbers rather than others? Whose decision was it to drop in references to these numbers in subsequent episodes as easter eggs for the fans?

J.J., Damon and I met at some restaurant on our day off to break that episode. Hurley winning the lottery was Damon’s idea. But I believe the “Numbers” and their importance was J.J.’s. When I started writing the episode, I already figured to use numbers that had been heard on the show… 4 (number of years Locke was in wheelchair); 8, 15 (Flight 815), etc.

When I confirmed my number choices with Damon, I was still missing the last number. I had thought to make it “42” (an homage to Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy – Answer to the Ultimate Question). When Damon had the same idea, that clinched it. It was my idea to have the numbers engraved on the hatch at the end of the episode. After that, I can only assume Damon is the easter egg dropper.

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24. "Robert Anton Wilson and #23"
LAST EDITED ON 05-24-10 AT 08:21 PM (EST)

A reprint of his 1977 interview on the 23 enigma.

http://www.forteantimes.com/features/commentary/396/the_23_phenomenon.html

I'll see if I can find where either Abrams or one of Darlton comments on RAW.
ETA from some old notes:

Chat with Kristin and Damon Lindelof on the Numbers from Sept. 2005:
The only number was always sort of a key number was 23, and anybody who knows anything about Robert Anton Wilson or any of his writing can read into that what they will. That's an important number in terms of the scheme of the show.

I was privileged to see Wilson give a talk in San Francisco in the early 90's. He was slipping a little by then, but he must have been amazing in his prime. I have mentioned Joyce and LOST. Actually, you can get everything you need to play with the "trippy" concepts of Joyce by reading RAW's essays on Joyce in his book "Coincidance."

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57. "RE: Robert Anton Wilson and #23"
Thanks for all the research, OFG. Fascinating and enlightening!



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34. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
>Cindy and the kids were with
>the group that got mortared
>by Widmore, and that entire
>group perished except for Smocke
>and Jack. I live
>near a guy who did
>extra work on Season 6,
>who was one of the
>Temple people who ended up
>with Smocke. He confirmed
>that his group was all
>dead (on a local forum).

I don't doubt this extra is telling the truth, that's what he was told. But the last word in the show came from Sayid who told Jack that the ones who weren't killed in the mortar attack scattered into the jungle. I choose to believe, then, that they survived and maybe got off the island eventually.

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36. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I'm pretty sure that we saw only men with rifles on the beach when Locke greeted Jack and the explosion occurred. I want to believe that Cindy and the kids wound up under Hurley's protection. An island protector needs a family.
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42. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
With Bernard and Rose as the doting grandparents.
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58. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Congrats, michel! You always knew that Hurley would end up as the protector!


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31. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LAST EDITED ON 05-25-10 AT 01:15 PM (EST)

I am just gong to start by saying ... I think I got a glimpse of the stuffed animal earlier this season being carried by Zach. I could be wrong......

Questions:
What was the point of showing the island under water in LA X?

What was the deal with David (Jacks's son in the sideways)? Was he completely imaginary?

Why was Penny in the church, but not Daniel or Eloise?

Why didn't Jack (on the island) get overcome by the EM after he recorked the hole? Why didn't he turn into a Smoke Monster?

Was Widmore lying about having the plane booby trapped with more explosives? Who was the source of the original bomb, Widmore or Flocke?

Did we ever see Boone have his revelation?

Why did Kate change her clothes at the church?

Why wasn't Richard at the church?

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32. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Just offering up my own personal theories as a fan of the show. Don't take it as gospel.

What was the point of showing the island under water in LA X?
Perhaps it symbolized that Jack and the other castmates were no longer aware of the island. Or it could just be, since everything in the sideways world was a little bit different than it was in real life, that the island was submerged in purgatory.


What was the deal with David (Jacks's son in the sideways)? Was he completely imaginary?

He was. I really feel strongly that the point of the David character was to benefit Jack and help him draw closure. His relationship to David, at least in the beginning, was exactly like his relationship with his own father. It was fractured and looked beyond repair. But Jack differed from Christian because he ultimately reached out to his own son and repaired their bond. This was part of Jack's redemption. In order to forgive his father, gain island realization, and move on, he had to first understand what it was that his father went through with him. The David character helped repair the side of Jack that he never thought could be repaired.

Why was Penny in the church, but not Daniel or Eloise?

I've talked with other people about who was left out and who was put in to the final scene at the church. I chalk a lot of it up to certain characters being too minor to include. Jack didn't really have a special relationship with Eloise or Daniel. The people in the church were mostly those who were closest to him. True, he didn't have a relationship with Penny, either, but she was there for the whole "couples reunion" bit.

Why didn't Jack (on the island) get overcome by the EM after he recorked the hole? Why didn't he turn into a Smoke Monster?

Jack was the island guardian when he decided to go down the hole, even if he did give the job to Hurly prior to actually going down the hole. Jack gets to write his own rules as a result.


Was Widmore lying about having the plane booby trapped with more explosives? Who was the source of the original bomb, Widmore or Flocke?

Not entirely sure, but it certainly didn't bother Fake Locke that the bombs were there. It helped him with his con.

Did we ever see Boone have his revelation?

No, but then again Boone is busy with the "Vampire Diaries". Weak explanation, but it's probably true.

Why did Kate change her clothes at the church?

I noticed that, too. I'm really not sure what the significance of that was.

Why wasn't Richard at the church?

I still think that the church would have been super crowded had everyone been in there. And secondly, this was about Jack. Jack wasn't very involved with Alpert throughout the show.

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33. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Questions:
What was the point of showing the island under water in LA X?

It made the viewers think that the Jughead/Incident flash had created an alternate world and gave them material for speculation all season. The payoff for it as part of a post-live waiting room -- nada, or they would have shown it sinking.

Personally I don't believe the Flash Sideways was written to be Purgatory. It makes no sense as one. Only the church scene makes sense. I think they went a different direction. They have said in interviews that they hadn't written the Finale until much of Season 6 had aired. (i.e. they gave an interview in April, I think, that they still had to write it. Perhaps they were waiting to see what kind of response the FS got.)

What was the deal with David (Jacks's son in the sideways)? Was he completely imaginary?

According to Christian, everything is real, even imaginary things. All the relationships that we saw in the FS would be real Purgatory experiences, but not ordinary real world history. Jack was never married to Juliet and never even knew her in his non-Purgatory life, so he couldn't have had a son with her.

Why was Penny in the church, but not Daniel or Eloise?

Happily Ever After plotline closure (and see last question).

Why didn't Jack (on the island) get overcome by the EM after he recorked the hole? Why didn't he turn into a Smoke Monster?

When you make up your own show, you get to make up the Rules. These are Darlton rules. There can only be one smoke monster? Jack didn't have a dark side? Oh wait, he did. Jack hadn't been popped over the edge by Jacob? It's 2000 years later and the magic place is out of smoke?
#1 -- Jack needed to die in the bamboo forest to close the show, and the island needed to be saved. The End.

Was Widmore lying about having the plane booby trapped with more explosives? Who was the source of the original bomb, Widmore or Flocke?

He didn't say more explosives. He said since he got on island. He hadn't been checking to see if anyone had tampered with his booby trap. It wasn't a bomb, it was C-4. Flocke made into a bomb, which shows how resourceful smoke monsters can be on the fly, grabbing watches off bodies before they even know they will find the explosive material.

Did we ever see Boone have his revelation?

Boone and his revelation were a sacrifice that ABC demanded.

Why did Kate change her clothes at the church?

Because she had just delivered an imaginary Purgatory-born infant and got yucky stuff on her dress, or because Kate doesn't do dresses by choice.

Why wasn't Richard at the church?

Because the fan base demanded see the regulars from Seasons 1 that they loved. This included Shannon and Boone. Richard was already in the Finale. The freighter people weren't included, even though they were in the Alt.

Anybody who was shown with a restored memory flash was there. Note that Miles, Widmore, Eloise, Charlotte, Nadia, Alex, Danielle, Helen never had those flashes, and Richard was never in the Alt at all. Unfortunately for Richard, he never had a love interest with whom to flash, or he may have been invited.

Alternative explanation: When Jack replugged the island, Richard became ageless again and he never died, and in fact he still walks among us, working for Hurley and Ben, and when they pass on and go to the "has no Now" waiting room, he'll work for the next schmuck who takes the job, because it's what he knows and he gets to travel a lot.

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37. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I'll offer some possibilties:

"What was the point of showing the island under water in LA X?"

I think that shot was a flash forward to the end of this season. We did see many chunks of the island falling in the ocean when Desmond uncorked hell. Maybe the whole side that we saw had indeed sunk.

Anther possibility is that the sunken island was pictured as a possible parallel universe if Jack had failed.

"What was the deal with David (Jacks's son in the sideways)? Was he completely imaginary?"

As I wrote elsewhere, Jack needed closure so he probably dreamt him, to show himself he could be a good dad and to understand his own father. That's what I think the whole FS were: Dreams. As such, they didn't need to make sense.

"Why was Penny in the church, but not Daniel or Eloise?"

The island gave Desmond back to Penny. Eloise asked Desmond not to bring Daniel immediately because she wanted to spend more time with the son that the island took away from her.

"Why didn't Jack (on the island) get overcome by the EM after he recorked the hole? Why didn't he turn into a Smoke Monster?"

First, I'd like to point out we don't know anything about what happened on the island after Jack recorked hell. There could be another smoke monster that would become Hurley's problem.

I don't believe that. As I mentioned somewhere else, I think MIB made a deal with the devil at the moment of his death: He'd do everything to turn off the light if he could get his humanity back. That's why Locke stopped being Smokey once the light was off: The devil respected his pact. Jack simply didn't make that deal but accepted his own death. Death by EM forces doesn't have to be immediate, especially since Jack entered the cave with the field down. Jack did die soon after.

"Why wasn't Richard at the church?"

The people important to Richard would be reunited in another "church".

Are the other questions really important?


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38. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
My answers were purely from the point of view of those writing the show. They needed certain things to happen.

There is no real island; do I need to say that? If it doesn't exist in the text; it doesn't exist. We can decide to make up stuff about any book or movie, but the fact that we choose to believe it doesn't make it authoritative in any way.

>>> I think MIB made a deal with the devil at the moment of his death:

Do you have any textual evidence for this, or is it real to you because you think it?

As far as Cindy and the kids go, it seems their fate is unknown. Their survival is no more or less real than their destruction. If any one saw them or any characters mentioned them specifically, then that is solid information on survival.

The writers let them go; they had other things to wrap up.

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39. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LAST EDITED ON 05-25-10 AT 10:05 PM (EST)

Those answers, really?

"is it real to you because you think it?"

This is fiction so no, it isn't real to me.

We know MIB wanted his humanity back, that he prefered to walk because it reminded him he once had a body. He wasn't going to leave the island any other way but as a human.

Locke needed to turn off the light and, when it went out, he stopped being Smokey. Knowing how Jacob and MIB kept making pacts, I think it's a safe guess that his metamorphosis was all part of a pact. Since that hole looked like the fires of hell, who else would make a pact to open it up?

ETA: MIB wanting to leave as a Human being would also explain a question that many asked: How could Smokey have appeared as Christian Shepard in LA? As one of Smokey's representations, I'd say Smokey could leave the island but that wasn't what MIB wanted. He wanted to leave as a human being. The only way for that to happen was by getting the light go out so Jacob couldn't let him leave.

BTW, I don't care at all what a writer that left the show years ago has to say about it now. He left either because he had a better offer, because he didn't give a damn anymore or for professional differences. I only care about what is on the screen.

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44. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
>>> BTW, I don't care at all what a writer that left the show years ago has to say about it now. He left either because he had a better offer, because he didn't give a damn anymore or for professional differences. I only care about what is on the screen.

Why so dismissive? Here's a corrected link, btw. The first link got changed into an emoticon and I can't get it to link directly. This is to the portal. Click on David Fury, third row.

Lospedia Interview with David Fury May 2008

There's no evidence that Fury was disgruntled, as he has nothing but praise for Damon Lindelof in the interview.

He is not merely "a writer."
He was a co-executive producer for LOST on all the Season One episodes, and he wrote four of the seminal episodes. He shared the Emmy win for best drama and he was nominated as a writer for Walkabout.

He went from LOST to being a co-exec producer of the new show 24, and went on to become executive producer for the duration, picking up another Emmy the year after he left LOST. He came to LOST after producing and writing for Buffy and Angel. Sound like a bitter guy with an axe to grind? Read the interview before you judge. He did not seek out the interview. He was solicited to answer questions from fans through Lostpedia and he graciously obliged.

He wrote episodes that introduced things that were part of that list of questions, so how is his knowledge of how he came up with the Whispers and the Numbers, and how he was writing in preparation for the Others' appearance not relevant?

As a writer who left the show, he has one thing that those who stayed do not: contractual liberty to be honest about his creative process, and that's what makes his interview refreshing. He explains that certain concepts were fluid the first season, which explains why the final version of what we see in the show may not be consistent with what we saw early on. The smoke monster, the whispers, the Others, the Numbers, for example.

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45. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LAST EDITED ON 05-26-10 AT 10:40 PM (EST)

I'm not judging him, I just don't care what he has to say about the finished product. His view is irrelevant because, in the end, it wasn't his story. His views about the episodes he wrote would be incredibly interesting but we are not talking about certain episodes here, we are talking of the whole story.

"He wrote episodes that introduced things that were part of that list of questions, so how is his knowledge of how he came up with the Whispers and the Numbers, and how he was writing in preparation for the Others' appearance not relevant?"

He only set up the questions. The answers weren't his. And, before you say that's a bad thing, I'll say that most authors only have a vague idea of the end product. They usually let their imaginations take hold of the situations as they create them. The words a character says on the page often give new ideas to the author. So imagine when that character is a living person with their own talents. A writer that left 4 years ago is simply out of touch. Did Fury even watch the series? I ask because some of the actors, Naveen Andrews in particular, didn't even watch a single episode.

In the case of the Others and the whispers, I'll take a guess and say that Micheal Emerson's incredible acting gave the writers whole new ideas long after David Fury had left. Had they stayed with a rigid format and eliminated Henry Gale before he became Ben, it would have been a terrible loss.


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9. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Frank, Miles, James, Kate, Claire, Richard, Walt, and Aaron get away.

Ben, Hurley, Rose, Bernard, and Vincent remain on the island.

Desmond is on the island but with instructions to go home to Penny and Charlie.

What happened to Cindy, Emma, Zach and the other remaining Others?

How does Kate explain she violated probation by leaving California?

Does Miles split the diamonds with James? Can he collect his back pay (he was technically employed by Widmore the entire time he was on the island)?

What can't Frank fly?

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10. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Loved the series and was satisfied with the ending.

It was great entertainment and that is all it needed to be.

But..."Where did the polar bear come from?"

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13. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Bear village.
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16. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
>Bear village.


HAHA!

An indirect victim of global warming I suppose!

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11. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Religious symbols in stained glass window:

Star and Crescent (Islam)
Star of David (Judaism)
Omkar (Hinduism)
Cross (Christianity)
Wheel of Dharma (Buddhism)
Yin and Yang (Taoism)

What's it all mean?

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14. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
>Religious symbols in stained glass window:
>
>
>Star and Crescent (Islam)
>Star of David (Judaism)
>Omkar (Hinduism)
>Cross (Christianity)
>Wheel of Dharma (Buddhism)
>Yin and Yang (Taoism)
>
>What's it all mean?


I thought it was a neat way to announce that this place was open to all who were a special part of someone's life - no matter what religion they were. Being good to each other is a universal requirement for a happy afterlife.

How they treated one another and overcame their obstacles were the important things.

I suppose if one wanted to dive deeper, one could blindly assign and make an argument that each of those windows represented the religions of the people in the gathering place at the end. (ie. Sayid - Islam...Jin - Buddhism, etc.)

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19. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Exactly. Not a "mystery" worth any more thought, IMHO.


-A Tribetastic Creation

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21. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I was told that they were in a Unitarian church, which supposedly has most or all religious symbols or icons, since it includes all faiths.


It's a Tribe!

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25. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Unitarian makes sense for that.

I also know the Episcopal cathedral in NYC has some places in it for people of other religious to be able to worship (has a Shinto altar they had an exchange with a Japanese temple) so depending on the type of place you could see more than one religion's symbols there.

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26. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Do you mean that is was supposed to be Unitarian or that it was filmed in a Unitarian church? It was filmed at Sacred Hearts Academy, so the mystical symbol window is Lost set dressing -- but I think we all know that, just not clear.
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27. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LAST EDITED ON 05-24-10 AT 09:25 PM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 05-24-10 AT 09:18 PM (EST)

I could buy the Unitarian angle as they do actually tend to open to religions other than just a certain subset of Christian sects.

However, like I said, there are some churches that are not Unitarian that will do some "all people are welcome to worship God in their own way" thing and so it wouldn't have shocked me to find that particular stain glass somewhere in reality, not just set dressing.

ETA: Even if it t'were just set dressing I could believe it is based off a window that actually exists somewhere rather than they invented something never seen before anywhere in all the world.

ETAA (hope the link works) A passage from a book where some people got peeved off at the fact that Episcopal cathedral has some things in it that ain't precisely Christian.

http://tinyurl.com/266d4gp

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28. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Thanks for the link, Snidget.

Perhaps it is based on a real window.
There are many types of churches in Hawai'i, but a church of this age is not that common. This beautiful building was built 1909 and is Catholic, in Honolulu.

Their website:
http://www.sacredhearts.org/

This location was also used as the church where Eloise took them into the basement to see the pendulum.

btw, a truly all inclusive church in Hawai'i would need to include something of the Native Hawaiian religion ... perhaps an image of Pele, the Volcano goddess.

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30. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
When I saw the building I thought they were all going back to the pendulum.
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05-24-10, 12:52 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
You know, I looked at that and thought to myself - don't even wonder, it won't be answered.
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17. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
That sealed the deal for me that they were in an "afterlife". My idea of heaven is that all faiths and no faith are welcome.
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18. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Maybe Ben didn't go in because he's an atheist?
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29. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LOL!

Actually, I would suppose Ben had some sort of pantheistic religious belief based on the island as the center of creation. It was certainly the center of Jacob's existence.

More to the point: I think it means something when a show where faith was an important theme goes to the trouble to group six symbols of major religions together in the closing act. It had to be intentional. But what are they saying? Maybe just that their story of faith was intended to be as universal as possible, not specific to this or that faith or sect. Maybe. But I can only speculate.

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43. "a few more questions"
A friend sent this to me, pretty funny.

Unanswered Lost QuestionsVideo

Answers welcome

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46. "Ben & Hurley"
Extra footage of Ben and Hurley and some of their "reign" on the island will be part of the DVD release.

http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2010/05/season-6-dvd-will-have-epilogue-of-ben.html

Oh it would be perfect if Ben threw a Hot Pocket at Hurley!


You've been hotpocketed!

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47. "YAY!"
I was hoping for a movie but I'll take what I can get

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48. "Alt endings"
This has been around for awhile, long before the Finale, but still funny

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59. "RE: Alt endings"
1. I'm still giggling.

2. That, more than anything else, just convinced me to cancel my Complete Series order. (The 'We're making it up as we go along' confession below represents another 20% of the decision.)

3. That ending still makes more sense than the one we got...

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49. "interesting post"
this is a paragraph out of a much longer post, which I'll link for context. It's a good post and worth reading. A 'Lage poster called Kurgan posted this tonight. It's just something for consideration, and I'm not posting it as any kind of proof or Aha!, just for those who are interested in the writers' process. And if you don't like it, don't shoot the messenger please (i.e. me).
____________________
Kurgan:
"I can share some info with you that will, sadly, explain why you didn't get all those answers, but if you're still a fan of Darlton to any degree, I'd urge you to just skip my post entirely. I assure you, you're really not gonna like this particular reveal.

You may already know this, since it's not really a secret, but since I haven't seen anyone commenting about it, I'll push on and explain. My own suspicions started back around the end of season 2, beginning of season 3. The whole "lost experience" especially had me scratching my head. We kept seeing clues that were later contradicted, ignored, or superseded by different clues. Things started to make no sense.

The more you paid attention, the more the show seemed just random and off-the-cuff, as if the clues where all planted just for the sake of giving the audience something to chew on. It began to look like things weren't actually planned out in advance, and the writers were just winging it as they went. I kept watching, since I was invested by then, but I grew more and more frustrated, and convinced this was exactly what was going on.

Then the stories began doing things that the writers had specifically said would never happen, and major subplots began to vanish (Claire's mystical baby; Walt's powers; the Others' need to kidnap people because of some unexplained criteria; the disease, etc). Even the original multi-clue hinted explanation for the smoke monster (ie. it being Cerberus, the security system merged with the weather control and PSI experiments that went berserk after the "incident") got dropped and forgotten.

And then, about a year ago, maybe a little longer, we got confirmation. Darlton had dropped a few hints in interviews and podcasts about how they wrote their stories, so I'm sure many of us had already put the pieces together and figured out the worst of it, but they finally came out and said it over dinner with a fellow writer. I forget who it was now, some writer behind a show I really liked that ended up being canceled, but they were out at some restaurant having dinner together, and the writer wanted some advice.

He'd assumed they were planning it all out ahead of time, and knew the answers, and wondered how they went about it (structure, keeping things straight, --something like that). Their reply shocked the hell out of him.

They admitted to him that they didn't have it all mapped out, that they only knew what was happening at any given time up to three episodes ahead. Note that this isn't talking about the fluff stuff, or "filler" story material, they're talking about the mythology (which is what he'd been asking about specifically, because he wanted to replicate the method).

Anyway, he was so appalled at this that he wrote about it on his blog, and went out of his way to promise fans of his own show that he'd never do that, that he felt it was just awful to do and basically unfair to the viewers. I'm thinking it was either Traveler or Journeyman, but I could be wrong. I was heavy into Middleman about the same time, but that show doesn't fit the architecture, so probably not that one.

So yeah, it's not a big surprise then that any given clue wouldn't mean much of anything unless one of them happened to remember it or write it down so they could integrate it into the show later and give it meaning. "
_______________________
post continues ... nice reference to Melrose Place.

http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=122366&goto=newpost

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50. "In the words of Ben Linus..."
So?
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51. "RE: interesting post"
"they finally came out and said it over dinner with a fellow writer. I forget who it was now, some writer behind a show I really liked that ended up being canceled, but they were out at some restaurant having dinner together, and the writer wanted some advice."

You sure Kurgan doesn't also have an uncle camerman?!!

Why do you need to tell us that the baby is the ugliest thing in the world?

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05-28-10, 12:16 PM (EST)
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52. "RE: interesting post"
OFG - I personally found it interesting. Here's the thing, I keep going back and forth on the pendulum. I want to be satisfied because there's nothing I can do about it, I keep trying to talk myself into just letting go of any questions. People keep saying - it's about the characters not the mysteries. And the bigger part of me thinks "screw that - I watch shows like Brothers and Sisters and Parenthood for the character stories. I watched Lost because of all the mysteries and questions. And then to get barely anything that made sense? Whatever.

The numbers were nothing but an Easter Egg. Really? Too me that shows they didn't really know where they were going with anything.

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05-28-10, 06:17 PM (EST)
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53. "Letting Go."
When was the last time that the numbers were mentioned? Were they mentioned after Desmond turned the fail safe key? The numbers were simply the code to release the EM forces. That was explained. Done. How could the numbers be re-introduced in the finale when it was a storyline that ended 4 years ago?

(Was Jack going to ask XLocke to pick a number and let him leave only if he picked the right one? )

Same thing with Walt. His story ended when we heard that the Others couldn't handle him and he sailed off the island with his father. OK, in his case, we saw some apparitions but there were many other apparitions. We wanted Walt to come back but his story was done.

I mentioned in a thread before season 6 started that there was only 1 question left and that was the nature of the conflict between Jacob and MIB. I was hoping for something more grandiose but it was explained and everything else follows from there.

BTW, funny that one of the most often repeated question was about Adam and Eve. I thought it was very secondary but that question was directly answered yet it made people complain more than anything. It makes me wonder if the people demanding answers would have been happy only if their own answers had been used.

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05-29-10, 11:06 AM (EST)
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54. "RE: Letting Go."
Michel - if I weren't under guideline rules I would tell you to bite me, but we are, so I won't.

I'm really quite tired of you. You seem to have deemed yourself judge and jury on what was important and what should or should not be answered for every viewer on this forum.

I suspect you know that you've been obnoxious throughout this season (and clumsily segueing into a different series) I'm pretty sure you would have been voted off the island first.

This is where I now stick my tongue out and stomp off. Fun-killer.

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05-29-10, 08:03 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: Letting Go."
Fun-killer!!!!! Am I the one saying this wasn't a good ending?

As for being tired of me, is it because I said that MiB was evil and you couldn't accept it? When you introduce two all-powerful and practically immortal characters like Jacob and MiB, they simply have to be the answer.

Here, may as well give you one more reason to vote me out: The ubiquity of the numbers was probably arranged by Jacob so that the Losties would realize they weren't there by coincidence, that there was a reason for being on the island.

Now, Jeff can go tally the votes!!!!

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05-30-10, 00:58 AM (EST)
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56. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I have never believed they had the show all planned out from the beginning. They might say it. But various things don't make sense then. They tried things and wanted to know if they worked. Even Ben was only suppose to be on the show for about 3 eps at first. And they would have never had Walt cast at his age if they realized how it would paint them into a corner with his character as he grew.
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06-01-10, 11:36 AM (EST)
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60. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I think there are people that read too much into Darlton comments about having things planned out from the begining. My take?

This was the story of what could happen when you die and don't let go (call it purgatory, which yes, I am a little bothered they denied in Season 1 that's what this show was about). They knew it would be a story of the answer to the question, "If your soul won't let go, what would you do if you could fight to go back and do it all again?" They knew it was a story of why souls won't let go, would you fight to go back, and what would you do different. They knew they'd incorporate mythology, faith and science in the show as things that have always driven our beliefs about life and death from ancient days. I think maybe they always wanted those elements to be in there as "confounders" where viewers could discuss and draw their own conclusions.



-A Tribetastic Creation

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06-01-10, 12:25 PM (EST)
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61. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
But the Island wasn't Purgatory. Only the Flash-Sideways in Season 6. Whether they planned it that way is debatable, but I can't criticize them for denying Purgatory was the point.

Tribefied

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62. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
A more literal view would be that nothing they did fit any established religious concept of purgatory. Parsing words perhaps.
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63. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I don't follow all the online discussion (only here), so I was unaware that people agree the island activities were not part of the purgatory. I know the sideways was, but I saw it as the physical island was real (and maybe even some of the Dharma research/experiments at one time in history), but everything that happened with the LOSTIES on the island was part of the purgatory experience.


-A Tribetastic Creation

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64. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
I am of the view that everything was real except the alternate reality in season 6. The dispute is that in the original conception of the series (when it was supposed to conclude at 12 episodes) the island was "purgatory" -- basically an extended Twilight Zone episode in which the characters didn't realize they were dead.
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65. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Ditto.
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06-01-10, 03:46 PM (EST)
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66. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
Hm. Well, perhaps I need to reconsider.


-A Tribetastic Creation

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67. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
If we go by what his father told Jack, everything that happened on the island was real. For those people to be the most important in Jack's Life I'd say that they had to be part of it! If everyone had simply died during the crash then Jack wouldn't know them except for having talked to Cindy and Rose for a few seconds.

I think the island was always intended to be real because its pretty dumb to start a story with everyone dying. The purgatory ending could have been a nod at our early theories but I'm really not interested in the process, just the product.

If you ask me, I'd say the flash sideways were part parallel universe, part dreams. Desmond, Charlie, Sun, Jin, Locke and Sayid did die when we saw them being shot at or run over or plunging in the sea. It's only after dying that they had those flashes, their other life flashing before their eyes. None of it made sense because dreams don't make sense.

I think only the church was "purgatory". Only the events on the island were important as it should have been.

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06-01-10, 09:32 PM (EST)
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68. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
LAST EDITED ON 06-01-10 AT 09:33 PM (EST)

>But the Island wasn't Purgatory. Only
>the Flash-Sideways in Season 6.
>Whether they planned it that
>way is debatable, but I
>can't criticize them for denying
>Purgatory was the point.

The criticism is that they denied the island was purgatory back in Season One, at which time it most likely was a story about some version of limbo in which LOST souls find themselves.

Because people guessed it, and the writers then had to deny it to keep the thing a mystery, they then morphed into a version where the island was real, which presented certain problems in that they had incorporated a supernatural monster from Day One, which didn't needed to be explained if the castaways were dead, but did need to have a rationale if they were in the South Pacific.

Most people who have followed what was said about the monster early on thought it was Cerberus, guardian of the gates of Hell.

The writers have said that Jacob wasn't even discussed until Season 3, and any viewer knows that the monster was never seen changing from smoke to human or vice versa until Season Six ... Terry O Quinn had no idea he was playing the smoke monster when he played the "resurrected" Locke in Season Five.

The Flash Sideways was revealed to be a limbo state, not an alternate time line. That's why Jin and Sun suddenly started speaking English and telling Sawyer they were perfectly fine. It was a limbo where they were unconscious of being in limbo and thought it was real until they saw flashes and were awakened. After Locke awakened, he knew the truth and told Jack that he had no son.

After they awakened to the truth, they proceeded to the church, where Jack, the last to awaken, saw his flashes after touching the coffin. Note that when Kate arrived with him at the church, she knew and he did not. The church was the departure lounge for the white light express within the limbo world.

Ben stayed outside, because he was remaining in limbo to enjoy some time with Danielle and Alex. Eloise reprimanded Desmond (twice) because she wanted to hang on to an existence where she had not shot her son.

As far as I can tell, the whole sunken island shot was mostly there to make people think that Jughead had done something to create a split reality. It was part of the long con for the season ...

As for what Christian said, he said it was all real, but he also said the church with no time was real, so that really says nothing about the island or the Flash Sideways. However, no one on the show is saying the island events weren't real; they are real as of the end of the show. How it began is another story.

The reason I'm using the word Limbo is that Limbo, which is from Latin for "border" and shares the root of "liminal" was conceptualized as the border to Hell, which would work rather well with the island as cork. Limbo is the place for people whose souls are not bound to either Heaven or Hell, perhaps because they died prior to Christ. Unbaptized infants went to Limbo. (Remember Aaron's baptism?)

Purgatory is the place where souls who did not commit mortal sins can expiate their sins and then move on to heaven. Murder is a mortal sin, so several Lostaways were never eligible for Purgatory under the strict meaning.

Probably it was not exactly Limbo, but it's a better term than Purgatory, so strictly speaking the writers could say the island was not Purgatory. However, after the Third Policeman hint in 2.3, the writers went on record that the Losties were not DEAD ... which is the twist of TP. I personally think that was a turning point where the island story turned more towards some sort of real world place.

Then they took the "dead" idea and tacked it onto the end.

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06-01-10, 10:10 PM (EST)
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69. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
PS. Limbo would not be the strict religious version, but something more akin to an afterlife where you get a clean slate to see if you can be something different.

I remember the first speculation I had along those lines. Season One, third episode, d Tabula Rasa. John Locke the philosopher espoused this concept, which propose that humans beings are born a blank slate, not inherently evil.

Blank slate is somewhat different than clean slate, but if you erase a slate or blackboard well, a clean slate looks like a blank slate.

TR was the first Kate-centric episode and the idea of whether she could start with a clean slate was part of the theme. Anyhow, I remember spec at the time that the Losties were either dead and getting a do-over, or had been brought there to get a do-over while alive ... only the third episode so hard to say which it would be.

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06-02-10, 08:15 AM (EST)
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70. "RE: Mysteries left unexplained and ignored."
"Because people guessed it, and the writers then had to deny it to keep the thing a mystery..."

So, you don't believe the producers but you believe hearsay from a completely unknown source.
*Shakes head*

It's pretty difficult to argue against them playing the limbo because we have no idea where they would have been going with that. I will say however that it would have been pretty dumb to push a story based on Survivor if there weren't any survivors!

Also, if they were doing the limbo, how would Rose wind up in the same place as Kate, Sawyer or Sayid? And why would some passengers have died right away while others got to play the limbo?!

How low could Rousseau go if she was supposed to have been doing the limbo for 16 years? We also know from the pilot that they had an idea for a science project on the island because of the polar bear. Those two storylines came from the pilot, not from any future turning point to save face.

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71. "Food for Thought"
This was posted on DarkUFO, and since then, he updated his site saying that he confirmed with ABC that this guy/girl indeed worked for them 3 years ago. It may not be fully legit, but at the very least I think it is an interesting explanation and people should read it.

http://www.lost-forum.com/showthread.php?t=89351

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72. "RE: Food for Thought"
Wow - that is a great post. Even if it isn't totally legit, it is very, very plausible.

I do believe that this was the intended ending all along. It had a very season 1 feel to it! And Matthew Fox said he knew that the last scene would be him closing his eyes (I don't know if he guessed that or if they told him that). However, I think that the narrative could have explained certain things better along the way. I felt that both Richard's and Jacob's motivations were rather fuzzy. But none-the-less, the way this poster explained the show is similiar to what I was thinking and I liked having some things clarified. Thanks for posting it Mr. C!!


Still searching for Alex and Rousseau

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73. "RE: Food for Thought"
That post goes directly to what I was saying but I will point out that it's curious for a writer of the show to have these spelling mistakes: Roussou and Lupidis. They must have had good correctors as well as writers!

It's an unknown source but it does go directly to the core of the pilot and season 1. Science vs Faith.

The 2 following quotes put a lot of credibility in what this poster writes: "the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving"..."They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny."

To me, that had to be the basic concept behind everything and why "Live together or die alone" was such an important theme. In the end the Losties found a way around it.

I also enjoyed: "That’s a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself."

I've been doing a lot of that, not always successfully, but I always had fun trying!!


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06-05-10, 09:34 PM (EST)
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74. "RE: Food for Thought"
Whoa, you guys, the person who wrote that didn't work as a writer, didn't work for LOST (only for ABC), and posted afterwards that he was sorry if his post got picked up as inside information. It was his own spec, as someone who worked as a gofer or something totally on the outside of the process. Now breathe.

It is the task of any writer to make the ending feel as if it flowed from the beginning. These writers took a rather easy route. They decided to mirror the opening. They preserved Vincent's availability so they could have him in the final scene. They got Season One actors to come back for cameos (even though poor Boone was left all alone at the end with a church full of couples).

This is a writing technique. Fox explained exactly what he knew. He knew he would die and the final image would be his eye closing. He did not know if his character would find redemption, but hoped so.

Do you realize how easy it is, when you've made a pilot with a distinct opening shot, to decide that will it be cool to close whatever you do -- which at the time they thought would be 12 episodes -- with the counterpoint to that image?
Open eye ..... Shut eye.
It was effective. All I'm saying is, there is no overarching concept or mythology that must be in play to make that particular creative decision in advance.

I don't think it is necessary to have it all planned out from the beginning, and I'm not even sure why it matters to so many people. The reason I resist it, is that if people look at early themes introduced into the show that got dropped, it makes more sense, Occam's Razor, to attribute that to writers finding their way. If people insist that it was all planned, it becomes necessary to make big stretches and even concoct unlikely theories, fill in the holes with fan spec, and so forth. Duct tape.

In any case, the easiest parts of a story to write are the very beginning and the very end. The hard part is writing a coherent, consistent and high quality middle to the piece.

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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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06-06-10, 01:16 AM (EST)
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75. "RE: Food for Thought"
Do you have a link to the info in your first paragraph, OFG?
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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06-06-10, 02:14 AM (EST)
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76. "RE: Food for Thought"
This came out on the Fuselage right after the Finale aired. There's a long topic on it in the Season 6 "The End" forum. I decided to go dig up the original post on the Buffalo Bills forum and scroll through umpteen pages until I found the OP's follow-up posts ... I did actually save the link at the time but I deleted my bookmark earlier this week when I realized the whole thing had no actual relevance.

The poster compared his status in the LOST process to something less than a stapler ... nice guy, clearly had no intent of people thinking he was revealing the inside scoop.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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06-06-10, 02:47 AM (EST)
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77. "RE: Food for Thought"
OK, don't say I never do anything helpful for you guys. Took 15 minutes to find it, but these are the follow-up posts.

Posted by DarkUFO at 5/24/2010 1000 PM
Update: 26th May I've spoken to ABC and they have confirmed that this person did use to work for ABC as an Intern but were released 3 years ago.

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=102576&view=findpost&p=1868132

"Apparently it's gone out wider than I ever intended. And it's being misconstrued as being from the writers of the show (on other sites I guess). Which I'm not. I just wrote it up for our little community here of Bills fans and forgot that we're actually a part of a way bigger internet community. I don't want people reading it and assumming it's THE answer or from the mouths of the show. It's just my take on it. Didn't want people to get the wrong idea.

Did not mean to cause a firestorm at all ... my apologies."
--------------

No no, I'm not a writer on LOST, never written a single word for the show. I was about as signifigant as a stapler. The real people who deserve all the credit are Damon, Carlton, Eddie, Adam, Liz, the great staff, cast and crew. I worked in a lot of different capacities for the company and the show but never, ever, as a writer"

Fuselage topic (5 pages)
http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=126899

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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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06-06-10, 01:55 PM (EST)
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79. "RE: Food for Thought"
Thanks.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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06-06-10, 12:14 PM (EST)
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78. "RE: Food for Thought"
"Whoa, you guys...Now breathe."

I don't appreciate being given orders or being treated like an excited child. Our responses to the post were quite measured. I even expressed doubts as to the source but I'll have you note that a simple gofer still has ears.

"I don't think it is necessary to have it all planned out from the beginning, and I'm not even sure why it matters to so many people."

Reading that, I felt like I was in a flash-sideways bizarro world because you were the one that was most vocal about the process, even calling it improv at one point. I've always said that the finished product is what matters.

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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
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10-02-10, 01:02 AM (EST)
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80. "Can it"
michel,

Can it. Now. You know better than to make this personal on this site.

-AyaK

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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10-12-10, 09:33 PM (EST)
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81. "RE: Can it"
Certainly Ayak.
It's that I read the "whoa you guys...now breathe" pretty much like telling me to shut up so I reacted. Sorry for that.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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10-15-10, 12:36 PM (EST)
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82. "Good News!"
According to the Lost Encyclopedia Cindy survived and lived on the island under Hurley's protection!
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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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09-27-11, 04:22 PM (EST)
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83. "They made it all up."
LAST EDITED ON 09-27-11 AT 04:32 PM (EST)

Don't tell zombs.

http://videogum.com/381751/duh-aficionado-magazine-damon-lindelof-explains-how-lost-was-kind-of-bullshit/behind-the-scenes/

Longer and better explanation:

http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/63037631.html

You've been hotpocketed!
The comments section is pretty funny.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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09-27-11, 08:39 PM (EST)
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84. "RE: They made it all up."
I feel so vindicated right now.

So the Big Folder Of Secrets given to every new writer? Mad Libs sheet. Fill in your own.

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10-26-11, 12:21 PM (EST)
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85. "RE: They made it all up."
How did I just see this?

Wah! I still love the show and it will remain my favorite tv series.

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agman 11158 desperate attention whore postings
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10-28-11, 05:27 PM (EST)
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86. "RE: They made it all up."
Ditto *sob
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