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PLEASE NOTE: The Reality TV World Message Boards are filled with desperate
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As entertainment critic Roger
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with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way."
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"The right not to believe."
Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:10 PM (EST)
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"The right not to believe." |
Is a soldier's religion now supposed to fall under 'don't ask, don't tell'? Or hir lack of same?http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html?iref=24hours Personally, I always thought an atheist soldier had extra courage. Had to. Think about the following philosophy for a moment: 'I will lay down my one and only life for others, and in doing so, will receive -- nothing.' Endless non-existence: that's the reward for an atheist who makes that ultimate sacrifice. And yet a number of them sign up for the military anyway in order to do what they see as the right thing: make things better in this world, for there is no other. But as people keep telling us, this is a Christian nation -- and that can mean those of us who aren't can feel free to not be part of it. To me, the dark joke in this case is 'I'd feel better if he wasn't a convert'. Crisis of no-faith in a very public environment. But if what he claims to have gone through is real... 
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:16 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: The right not to believe." |
This?Is what comes of the destructive and utterly unconstitutional mixing of religion with politics that has come about since the debacle of the Reagan adminstration. Disgusting. And I'd just like to add how full of morals and values those Christians he served with and under sound. 
"Not this time." Barack Obama 3-18-08
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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:28 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: The right not to believe." |
LAST EDITED ON 07-09-08 AT 03:31 PM (EST)I think Obama's notion that most of the tax-exempt entities receiving funding are not going to prosthelitize naive. At best. So, can't speak for Geg or any other Democrat, and it doesn't bother me like the FISA thing does, but I am not happy with Obama's relgious commentary either. ET because who the heck can spell "prosthelitize"? 
Yes, reaching across the aisle, blah blah blah. It is ironic that many people view the false Muslim assumption as Obama's problem area, while I view his not very private/not very separate from state Christianity disturbing.
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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:37 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: The right not to believe." |
I actually don't see this as a move to the center. I think Obama always had an "inclusive" attitude towards government and church. His pamphlets in the middle and southern states have always featured crosses and other Jesuit imagery. The problem is, some of his supporters did not understand this was a moderate candidate and bought the "most liberal senator" talking point, whole cloth, so Obama's current activities are, well, kind of a surprise to them. In other words, while I hate it, I don't see this as a change in position for Obama.The FISA thing is different. That was a change in position. 
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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:43 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: The right not to believe." |
you are right on that ginger, I stand corrected. I am a firm believer of sep of church/state. I don't want my tax money being spent on faith based initiatives. But I do think that Obama stressing this now after primaries is over is to win over evangelicals that are so warm to McCain as they were to Bush in 04.
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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:45 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The right not to believe." |
While I agree that he "talks the talk" sometimes of a moderate (for example praising Reagan), it isn't his talk that got him his badge for "most liberal senator". It is his voting record that earned him that distinction, and it is undeniable.As for the FISA thing, I guess he's going to assume that he has the votes already for most people who are against it. 
BHO! Got to go! BHO! Got to go
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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:49 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: The right not to believe." |
yeah I'll vote for him but I know I'm not going to be so "giving" as I was before
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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 04:07 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: The right not to believe." |
By who's standards? The National Journal seems to be the expert at it, and they have him going from 16, to 10, to numero uno.That's where it's different between walking and talking as I stated before. For example he says things like the SC striking down the Washington DC gun ban was the right thing to do, but has voted for every single additional restriction on gun ownership that has come his way. It's his voting record that gives him the honor(?), not what he chooses to say from one day to the next.
BHO! Got to go! BHO! Got to go
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 04:30 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Instead of taking the word of the most right wing and biased magazine in the entire U.S., you might actually look into it yourself. Like looking up things like voting records and what legislation is actually being voted upon.You have got to be kidding me, quoting that fvcking rag, National Journal?
"Not this time." Barack Obama 3-18-08
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 05:41 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: The right not to believe." |
I agree that the NJ rankings have an element of political bias at work, because Obama is not the most liberal senator out there. But Obama is far out on the left, regardless. In this nonpartisan study, Obama ranked as the 9th most liberal member of the Senate. Here are the top 11: 1) Feingold (D-WI)
2) Whitehouse (D-RI)
3) Sanders (I-VT) (yes, the one Socialist is near the top)
4) Boxer (D-CA)
5) Kennedy (D-MA)
6) Brown (D-OH)
7) Lautenberg (D-NJ)
8) Levin (D-MI)
9) Obama (D-IL)
10) Akaka (D-HI)
11) Clinton (D-NY) This doesn't place them outside of the mainstream of their party -- only the top 3 are outside the mainstream: Senators Obama and Clinton are clearly representative of their fellow Senate Democrats. They are to the left of the mean on the first dimension but by no means are they outliers. In constrast, Senator McCain is a clear outlier in the Republican Party. His position down low on the second dimension indicates that he defects on a number of roll calls and votes with the Democrats.
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syren 5418 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:44 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: The right not to believe." |
I do not see it as expanding. He has said he will overhaul, dismantle and re-build properly. But there is a huge difference in the two faith programs. He has also said he doesn't want the money going to proselytize anyone that the charities help, nor can they discriminate if they do receive money under what he is proposing. No more religious backed discrimination is a good thing I think. Furthermore the money has to be used in a secular fashion instead of a one religion fashion, and that to me is completely different from just about anything Bush has ever proposed. ""Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don't believe this partnership will endanger that idea - so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can't use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can't discriminate against them - or against the people you hire - on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we'll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work." Obama plans to expand with update from Obama Campaign
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syren 5418 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:57 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: The right not to believe." |
No, it's not.
If you go into a religious based pregnancy crisis center, who receives federal funding because it is a charity, the majority of the time you have to go through a lot of things that are based on that centers religious belief, instead of simply being provided with information on all aspects. Including how bad abortion is based on that religion, instead of just being able to gather information that has nothing to do with religion. Under Bush, that hasn't only been the case it has been accepted and required on some fronts. Under Obama, it would no longer be acceptable. You help because you help. Period.
Also there are some Christian ran shelters, who also receive funding for being a religious charity, who require that anyone staying there or benefiting from the services participate in religious activities. Obamas would require that those things be removed. That the charity has a secular approach to helping people instead of a religious approach. That they are there to help, they help without requiring something from the person in return.
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KeithFan 7422 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:56 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: The right not to believe." |
I'm really sort of shocked that you find this ok, syren. How can it not be construed as expansion based on any definition of that word?The biggest problem that I have is that Obama would allow for discrimination by these charities based on religion. The quote about it that you gave is all well and good, but it's not what his plan says. You have to split the finest hairs to come up with "it's ok to discriminate based on faith, except where the federal dollars are spent".
BHO! Got to go! BHO! Got to go
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syren 5418 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 04:01 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: The right not to believe." |
His update to the AP article states that he is against any discrimination based on religion. As far as your text in quotation marks, for me that is exactly how I feel the Bush administration has been. At least with Obama, I feel that he is pushing it to be Secular. No basis on religion. I feel you can have faith without pressing religion. That you can have these kinds of programs and them work without pressing people to feel a certain way. I don't think I have ever said on here that I was against Religious charities, as I think they are good things. I think that they can relieve some of the burden on our current system, but there has to be major changes. One of those changes is regarding how the money is spent. That the religious affiliation is not pressed onto the person receiving the charity.
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 04:35 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Honestly.That is what separation of church and state is all about. I have no problem with a church only allowing certain people to do certain things within their churchly doings. But Obama made it quite clear that, if their churchly doings take federal dollars, no more discrimination. Personally, if it were up to me, no church or religiously affiliated ANYTHING would ever get one cent in government money. FOR ANYTHING. EVER. But I understand Obama's background in working with Catholic Charities. I understand that he feels differently. I don't like it, but I get it.
"Not this time." Barack Obama 3-18-08
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 05:45 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Religion has always been mixed with politics, and there is nothing unconstitutional about it. People are free to vote for others with whom they share values.The unconstitutional part is making religion into a job-related trait. And that seems to be what happened here. I'll second geg's comments about the morals and values of the "Christians" who caused this guy to need a bodyguard.
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singer 1910 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 06:02 PM (EST)
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33. "Congress..." |
shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." United States Constitution, Amendment 1.The goons who have stolen our government are indoctrinating the troops to believe that this Middle East debacle is some kind of holy war. That's what some soldiers have said to me. I guess the goons forgot to tell the troops that the war really is about oil. How can the "leaders" claim to be fighting a war for "freedom" when they abnegate daily every basic constitutional principle that most of us hold dear? Go figure. 
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 06:19 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Congress..." |
LAST EDITED ON 07-09-08 AT 06:20 PM (EST)Since you quote from the Constitution, what action did Congress take that would cause an establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof?
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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 11:50 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Congress..." |
LOL! There does seem to be, in our military forces, some bias in regard to advancement given to expressed Christians, and this bias may have been further encouraged and advanced by the current administration in DC.I've read and viewed a few things which support such a conclusion and, though I'm not convinced of the supposition, that would be an area worth further investigation. If the military systemically promotes Christians in the ranks and excludes nonchristians whenever possible, let the military prove there is some military purpose or advantage in doing so or otherwise give up the biased practice. One soldier expressing his personal bias to another soldier, however, strikes me as an entirely interpersonal reaction to a situation and not indicative of a systemic problem.
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Ahtumbreez 10456 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:36 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Bre is a Christian but she's non-denominational. She refused to put down a denomination, so when she was issued her dogtags it had on there Protestant Catholic. Good thing she's not Irish, she would have been fighting with herself constantly.After moving up in rank and learning how things work she gained enough confidence to make them change them to simply Christian. 
Agman took me to the islands
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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:39 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: The right not to believe." |
When I was a little girl, my parents told me it was impolite to ask people about how much they made, who they voted for, and what their religion was. We have got to step away from the theocracy.
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:41 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: The right not to believe." |
I recognized this soldier's name from somewhere, and I found the earlier article which I posted in one of our other threads (the Prayer Breakfast one?) some months back.There's no question that there is evangelical Christian activity within the Pentagon and the armed services. I don't have a problem with service people of like faiths joining together as a matter of common interest, but if lack of 'membership' with one of these social groups causes discrimination or any form of coercion, then we have a problem.
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PagongRatEater 12996 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:46 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: The right not to believe." |
A lot of those sound like personal judgements not military policy. It's an interesting question though - should religious soldiers give up their First Amendment right to Free Speech so he doesn't feel bad about excercising his right to Free Religion? I could see an argument that you would be completely ceasing the first amendments right of multiple soldiers to keep the one soldier from feeling uncomfortable. 
It is impossible to contemplate the fabric of the world without recognizing the admirable order of its arrangement and the certain manifestation of God in the perfection of its correlations. Reason, when once it had considered and admired so much beauty and so much perfection, feels a just indignation at the dauntless folly which dares ascribe all this to chance and happy accident. it must be that the Highest wisdom conceived the plan and Infinite power carried it into execution....The starry sky above me and the moral law within me are two things which fill the soul with ever increasing admiration and reverence. Emmanuel Kant
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Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:52 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Given your previously-stated position on atheists lacking moral conviction, I'm going to take any stance you adopt here under heavy advisement. And I know you're capable of seeing the difference between open discussion and harassment. I just think you're choosing not to.
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Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:58 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Let's see. They have the right to stand around his bunk chanting Bible verses at him throughout the night so he can't sleep. They have the right to put him out front on any dangerous mission so that if anyone dies, it'll be the one who's going to burn anyway. They have the right to openly point him out to enemy combatants in the hopes that he gets shot first -- hey, he doesn't believe in Allah either. They have the right to spread news of his belief system to anyone and everyone they can in order to find more people who agree with them and will treat him the exact same way with every last one of those rights in full force.Let me know if I left anything out.
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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:53 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: The right not to believe." |
LAST EDITED ON 07-09-08 AT 03:55 PM (EST)The constitutional case is not about what the others said to him, it's about the defense dept. bias towards him, lack of advancement, etc. (he has to have the proof tho) bc of his atheism. ALso actions against him by other troops that required him to be given a body guard would not be "speech"
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 03:58 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: The right not to believe." |
See my link above, which goes into some detail about a suit already filed last year by this soldier.On Sept. 17, the soldier (U.S. Army Spec. Jeremy Hall) and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) filed suit against Army Maj. Freddy Welborn and US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, charging violations of Hall's constitutional rights, including being forced to submit to a religious test to qualify as a soldier.
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Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 04:05 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: The right not to believe." |
If universal respect from those underneath your new rank was an absolute requirement for promotion, we would have an army of privates.Beyond that -- guess what? If he was using his atheism as an attack against his fellow soldiers, berating them for their foolishness and giving them endless criticism on putting their faith in fairy tales, asking them if Jesus is going to tuck them in at night after deflecting all those bullets -- then he would be guilty of harassment. Period. And if he was in charge of issuing promotions and refused to give out any to Christians because they were Christian, it's religious discrimination. No question. But you may have noticed none of his fellows have filed any charges against him -- and he's not in a position to determine who does and doesn't advance. Once we start judging the case on what the defendant theoretically might have done as opposed to what actually happened, we're in just a little bit of legal trouble -- right?
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 04:08 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: The right not to believe." |
It's simple, PRE.A soldier, whether a Christian or otherwise, serves our country according to the Constitution. A Christian, whether a soldier or otherwise, serves God according to the Bible. You can't mix the two. Can you serve both? Yes, but as a professional soldier, you serve your country first.
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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 04:19 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Now let's insert the word "President" in lieu of "soldier." 
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HistoryDetective 9516 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 06:26 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: The right not to believe." |
So can the Pentagon consider whether a soldier would be respected by his underlings as a criteria for advancement?What if a soldier has a really small penis? I mean, this is a really, really teeny tiny wiener. He cannot even claim to be a grow-er, not a show-er because it is just a really little dick --- and all the other soldiers laugh at him in the showers and around the barracks and tease him in the mess and just taunt him about his small cock all the time. They obviously don't respect him. Should the Pentagon consider whether this soldier would be respected by his underlings as a criteria for advancement? 
"Frankly, I don't care what you think." --- PagongRatEater, 20 October 2007
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Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 06:31 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Silly HD. Military history is all about the display of substitute penii.
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Snidget 44369 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 10:09 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: The right not to believe." |
You mean straight guys never ever sneak a peek to make sure they measure up, or that other guys don't?
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 07:36 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: The right not to believe." |
>Fair enough. So can the Pentagon consider whether a soldier
>would be respected by his underlings as a criteria for
>advancement? I thought the military taught you to obey commands from your superior officers, whether you respect them or not. In fact, I thought that failing to obey such commands was a court-martial offense. This argument about respect from underlings was the same argument used by the military in WWII to segregate black soldiers from white ones. I thought Truman banned such behavior in 1948.
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 07:47 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: The right not to believe." |
Further, as a soldier, there is no freedom of speech. As I understand it, permission by the superior officer must be granted to speak openly.
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Prof_ Wagstaff 4196 desperate attention whore postings
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07-09-08, 07:57 PM (EST)
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41. "Big fvcking surprise" |
The military hates a grunt that won't bend to religion, but the Christian Riech knows enough to start at the top.A young cousin of mine reciently graduated from the US Air Force Acadamy. He says that if you didn't profess a belief (loudly, in word and deed) in evangalical christianity you were FUBARed. He graduated at the top of his class by working hard and lying through his teeth. Of course we've heard this before:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/12/evangelist-vide.html 
Surfkitten Summer Sigshop 2008
When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.-- Sinclair Lewis (1885-1951)
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