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"Court Supports Gun Rights"
PagongRatEater 12996 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 09:46 AM (EST)
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"Court Supports Gun Rights" |
LAST EDITED ON 06-26-08 AT 10:09 AM (EST)In a close 5-4 ruling the court ruled that the Constitution DOES protect an individual's right to own a gun for personal protection and sport. The DC ban on handguns has been struck down....look for the murder rate to drop in DC significantly in 2009. More to come... ETF link http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080626/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_guns;_ylt=A0WTcXJGqWNIAjAADRys0NUE 
It is impossible to contemplate the fabric of the world without recognizing the admirable order of its arrangement and the certain manifestation of God in the perfection of its correlations. Reason, when once it had considered and admired so much beauty and so much perfection, feels a just indignation at the dauntless folly which dares ascribe all this to chance and happy accident. it must be that the Highest wisdom conceived the plan and Infinite power carried it into execution....The starry sky above me and the moral law within me are two things which fill the soul with ever increasing admiration and reverence. Emmanuel Kant
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Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 09:54 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Darn handgun-owning, people-shooting, duel-fighting liberals.  I expect the murder rate to rise in DC for the first few years. There's one simple reason behind that: those who would commit crimes generally get weapons before those who would defend themselves. More incentive. And if you just happen to have a weapon around, acting on that sudden urge to use it has an outlet. Of course, given the fragility of the human body, anything down to and including an empty toilet paper tube has the potential to be a murder weapon -- but guns are more fashionable. I'm not taking a pro-gun or anti-gun stance above (and in general, I'm pro). I just expect the murder rate to rise, that's all. And if you'd be surprised by a shootout on the Congressional floor, raise your hand.
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Snidget 44369 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 10:17 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
There may be a fair amount of crimes of passion where people wouldn't buy a gun off the street (or the drive to where you can buy one cools off the temper) that are just easier when you can get a gun quickly.Now they may have enough of a cooling off period to prevent some of that. There never are enough guns on the street for every bad guy to already have one, and stealing one from someone's house for free is often a more cost effective way to get one than buying it from you local illegal arms dealer. Do we really have that many people killed by their victims (and I thought this was just handguns and you can kill the intruder with a rifle or shotgun, so I'm not sure how many more households will have a weapon in the house for the very first time). There is always the problem of making sure you get them before they take your weapon away from you, and I'm not sure how many of the potential "heroes" running out to buy a handgun are really up for the job. The gun doesn't do all the work by itself, you know.
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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 10:06 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Sorry, PRE, but I don't think I'll be holding my breath for that decreased murder rate in DC.And you're really dreaming if you think it's going to make it easy to get a handgun in DC. There are tons of ways to make it difficult, if not impossible, to get one. And, let me say right off, I'm not against guns (though I would never own one nor would I want anyone around me who does). I am, however, against anyone other than law enforcement owning any sort of assault weapon, automatic or semi-automatic weapon, and concealed weapons of any kind. I think people who own guns are just stupid. And this from someone who grew up in a household that had them and who knows how to shoot. YMMV. 
"Not this time." Barack Obama 3-18-08
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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 10:27 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
For the record, I'm for gun control to a certain level, with strict and enforced registration, and eliminating (not just outlawing) some types, and controlling gun resales. But I think, that regulated gun possession should be allowed. Illegal gun possession as well as crimes committed with guns should carry a heavy-duty penalty (as they currently do in most areas). I think there outght to be some federal regulation, and that municipalities shold be able to increase restrictions. And I think, in certain areas where crime is deemed out of control, and for limited time periods, that municipalities should be able ban gun sales. I'm thinking of gang infested areas & border areas. But this decision might be providing the seeds to a solution for the problems introduced by the court's other decision allowing child rapers to not be executed.
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mattben 1265 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 11:43 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Yea!Now I can go hunting wabbits free from gov't interference.
 
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:16 PM (EST)
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13. "Duck Season!" |
Shoot!
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IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:27 PM (EST)
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17. "Rabbit theason!" |
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Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:34 PM (EST)
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19. "Elmer season!" |
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Snidget 44369 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 04:36 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: Duck Season!...EEEK!!!" |
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Sunny_Bunny 5597 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 10:08 PM (EST)
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71. "RE: Duck Season!...EEEK!!!" |
Yes, well Wabbit season isn't all that great either ya know...
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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 07:08 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Do you need a good beagle to hunt down those wascawy wabbits for you?
A TP production!
"Them people had to be pretty dumb to make their camp in a riverbed." - Rudy Boesch
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Colonel Zoidberg 3662 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 11:49 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
The murder rate may go down...but somehow I picture the manslaughter rate, the assault with a dealy weapon rate, and the accidental injury rate, as well as many related insurance premiums, to go up, at least for a while. People are careless, you know.
Congrats Red Wings! 2008 Stanley Cup Champions!
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:20 PM (EST)
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16. "Happiness Is a Warm Gun" |
Bang Bang Shoot Shoot
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 10:35 PM (EST)
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56. "RE: Happiness Is a Warm Gun" |
Dwat that wabbit
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 12:51 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
LAST EDITED ON 06-26-08 AT 12:53 PM (EST)The life the SC saved in one ruling (capital punishment), they lost here. Don't tell me that not a single person will be killed because someone has access to a weapon because of this ruling that they would not have otherwise had. Just one is all it takes. 
Foo dogs by tribe
ed. rephrase
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:16 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
So you'd rather trash the Constitution in the name of expediency?
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:45 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Of course not. But the sentence:"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." is open to interpretation as to intent and effect (as we've discussed before in this forum). It makes you wonder what those who wrote and supported this Amendment at the time of its adoption would think of the current ruling in modern society. I haven't yet read the opinion (157 pages, .pdf), so I reserve comment on it until later. Any initial thoughts on your part, AyaK?
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 04:49 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
I haven't read the opinion either, but I've never had any doubt that it encompassed an individual's private gun ownership. There was no such thing as an organized militia at the time that the Constitution was drafted: the "militia" consisted of every able-bodied man that was old enough to be trusted and young enough to still exert himself (say, 16-64?). People took their own guns to war. There was no effort to form a national arsenal of weaponry until the Jefferson administration.By itself, this completely forecloses the first sentence of Stevens' third paragraph in dissent: "The Second Amendment was adopted to protect the rights of the people of each of the several States to maintain a well-regulated militia." That sentence is absolutely and utterly wrong, because if this was actually the intent of the drafters, the clause would have been written differently. However, from the little bit that I've read, Scalia's opinion is no better, going on about some made-up "inherent right of self-defense." So what does the prefactory language about a "well-regulated Militia" mean? I'm fairly certain it was added because there were a lot of people that, even in 1787, were nervous about giving the citizens the unfettered right to own their own guns -- since, in a country without a standing army, a citizens' rebellion could take the country out. In other words, there was horse-trading on laws back in Founding Father days, just like there is today. The only impact of the "well-regulated militia" clause is to provide a reason why gun ownership should be allowed, even though it poses a strong challenge to the power of the state. To read it any other way is to give it a weight that it won't bear. Remember, when the Constitution was passed, it only applied to the federal government. The states were free to make whatever laws they wanted. The mayhem caused by this issue results from the 14th Amendment, which makes the Constitution a limit on state powers as well. Someday we'll have to face up to the mess caused by that amendment. But it won't be today.
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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
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06-30-08, 00:16 AM (EST)
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79. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
LAST EDITED ON 06-30-08 AT 08:33 AM (EST)From a few of the things I've read boys as young as 14 were allowed to serve as soldiers in the Revolution, if they were deemed capable. Don't know if that's actually true but it wouldn't surprise me, boys that young and younger were allowed to serve as drummers and runners and so on. Basically, when it comes to militia, you're correct, when the Constitution was adopted the country didn't have much of an Army, just a small Navy and Marine Corps. The regular Army was a small force of well trained experts (soldiers, engineers, commanders) to be augmented with volunteers and if necessary recruits in time of national emergency. The local and/or state militias were for local or state needs (fighting Indians, Mexicans, marauders or Canadians as the case may be). But, of course, when the British invaded in 1812, and the regular Army was sent as a first response force, the very next thing that was done was to call up the Maryland militias. The idea of just maintaining a small regular Army for national emergencies didn't go out the window until after WWII. Since then the whole "well regulated militia" bit has been pretty much obsolete.
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mattben 1265 desperate attention whore postings
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06-29-08, 00:50 AM (EST)
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77. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Cahaya, Anything and everything can be a weapon of murder. Only wimps are singling out guns. More socialist control.
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AZ_Leo 3526 desperate attention whore postings
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06-29-08, 02:25 PM (EST)
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78. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Only wimps are singling out guns.I always thought it was the opposite: only wimps need to hide behind guns (excluding those who need them for their jobs). You know the saying--big guns, little......feet? 
A smokeysmom original
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-30-08, 01:13 AM (EST)
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80. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Cahaya,Anything and everything can be a weapon of murder. Only wimps are singling out guns. Sure, you can even kill with just the fingers you're typing your post with. For added measure, maybe you'd like to have a knife in those fingers. But it takes considerably more skill (in martial arts) and it puts you within physical proximity of the person you're attacking, which gives them the opportunity to defend themselves. On the other hand, a firearm allows you to stand off at a distance at which the other person is totally unable to defend themselves unless they too have a firearm. Guns revolutionized warfare on the battlefied - and in the streets. Any lamebrain idiot can shoot a gun to kill. Most lamebrain idiots who engage in physical combat would get the shit kicked out of them by someone who is both smarter than them and fighting for their lives. Keeping guns out of their hands makes them far less dangerous. BTDT. In case you hadn't read my previous posts regarding that incident, I can assure you neither I nor my DW are wimps, nor are we socialists.
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IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 01:00 PM (EST)
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10. "Would Jesus own a gun?" |
And since you wouldn't answer in the other thread:Would Jesus vote for the death penalty. Just looking for a simple yes or no.
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:18 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
I don't know whether Jesus would own a gun, but I know he wouldn't support the death penalty.
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PagongRatEater 12996 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:43 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
What would you base that on? At what point did Christ speak out against the DP? Any reading of Revelations would support that Christ has some pretty severe punishment in mind for those who break His law. Further, the Old Testament is very clear in its support of the DP. The God of the OT is the SAME GOD - He says Himself that He is unchanging.
Is there any doubt in your mind that Jesus Christ knew of these Old Testament incidents? If you believe Jesus did not approve of the death penalty, how do you explain his silence on these well-known stories from the Old Testament? It is absolutely unthinkable that he did not know, since he was God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16). Since he did know, why did he not say, “I am aware that Samuel hewed king Agag to pieces and that Elijah killed the prophets of Baal. Although these were God’s prophets, they sinned grievously by their violence”? If he thought such violence was always sinful and approved of it any way, how can we say Christ was honest and sinless? It ought to be obvious that Jesus Christ endorsed the death penalty under some circumstances.
Has it ever dawned on you that Jesus never--not even one time--criticized the teaching of the Old Testament? He disapproved of the way some of the Jewish leaders abused and misused the scriptures, but he did not question the inspiration and authority of one word of the revelation of God in the Old Testament. If the Son of God endorsed all of the Old Testament, how can we call ourselves Christians and doubt any of its teachings? I am reminded of a question raised by a radical Jewish scholar. He asked, “How can you call yourself a Christian and entertain a different view of God than Jesus Christ had?” We must have the same attitude toward the Old Testament that the Son of God so openly expressed.
http://www.gospelhour.net/1934.html
It is impossible to contemplate the fabric of the world without recognizing the admirable order of its arrangement and the certain manifestation of God in the perfection of its correlations. Reason, when once it had considered and admired so much beauty and so much perfection, feels a just indignation at the dauntless folly which dares ascribe all this to chance and happy accident. it must be that the Highest wisdom conceived the plan and Infinite power carried it into execution....The starry sky above me and the moral law within me are two things which fill the soul with ever increasing admiration and reverence. Emmanuel Kant
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IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:04 PM (EST)
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23. "Let me get this straight" |
What Jesus didn't say tells you what Jesus would do...*shakes his head in wonder* I respectfully suggest that there is more to learned from studying what he did say than what he did not.
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moonbaby 17120 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:15 PM (EST)
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27. "So..." |
that whole "Thou Shalt Not Kill" thing had a footnote?
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Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:16 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: So..." |
Not only that, the Jews are still the chosen people.To which 90% of the world's Jews say 'Damn it.'
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moonbaby 17120 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:17 PM (EST)
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29. "so that's why" |
I was always picked last for basketball!
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IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:26 PM (EST)
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31. "Please explain" |
... why God requires human beings to do the killing for him. If wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah in a single strike was not a problem then, what's stopping him from making a criminal die in his sleep if he feels it is time for that life to end.Jesus' policy on violence was pretty much summed up with the 'offer the other cheek' thing but you would ignore that and follow your interpretation of his lack of comment on the Old Testament. As a fellow Christian, I would humbly and compassionately suggest that you should meditate and pray on this.
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bondt007 3413 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:43 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: Please explain" |
God requires / desires a partnership with humans to do all kinds of things, doesn't he? I don't know what he would think about guns today, but they had swords then, and didn't talk about the use of them - maybe it wasn't up for vote or debate. That to say, your mention of "offer the other cheek", as well as his summing up the OT law in - love God, love each other - would make me think that guns, swords, and such - he would hate.
>Issued by "Q" and RollDdice
Charter Member, April 2001; Club Anti-DAW
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IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:51 PM (EST)
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34. "This partership" |
... should be motivated by what is directly commanded as opposed to being indirectly limited by what is not specifically forbidden.Killing a person cuts that person off from participating in this partnership that you speak of. Killing a person ends any possibility of that broken soul from being healed and redeemed. When that happens should be left in the hands of God.
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bondt007 3413 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:59 PM (EST)
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35. "mostly agree" |
But God did seem to direct people in the OT to go "take land" and "take cities"... I guess that would fall under your "left in the hands of God...", but it was a partnership, to kill.
>Issued by "Q" and RollDdice
Charter Member, April 2001; Club Anti-DAW
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IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 04:10 PM (EST)
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36. "I'm more of a Gospels" |
... kind of Christian and I try to stay to stick to the teachings that are based on direct quotes from Jesus.The Bible has always been subject to reinterpretations and revisions. The OT passages covering certain peoples being ordered to conquer other peoples sound like the words of the winners who got to write the history books. Jesus' core messages were about peace and caring for others. Focusing on those messages leads people to take actions that make the world a better place. Focusing on older OT ideas of people making war on other people in God's name makes the world a worse place.
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bondt007 3413 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 04:30 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: I'm more of a Gospels" |
Oh - don't mis-read my "debate", I am as well. But we can't just ignore the OT... it got us to the NT and Gospel. You asked a question and I just poked at an answer - it's really an unanswerable question because we don't know. But we do know what was said and done in old times as well as Jesus' times - so we take a stab. But yes, his core message was as you (and I) have stated. And we need to focus on that core message - and live that core message.
>Issued by "Q" and RollDdice
Charter Member, April 2001; Club Anti-DAW
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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 07:15 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: Please explain" |
Agree completely PRE... I err on the side against the death penalty.
A TP production!
"Them people had to be pretty dumb to make their camp in a riverbed." - Rudy Boesch
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IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 10:00 PM (EST)
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52. "Your point is well taken" |
Just as much as I'm against the death penalty, I am equally against parole for dangerous offenders. Psychology is one of those sciences that is so full of holes that it shouldn't be used to let a convicted dangerous offender back into the community.Dangerous offenders should complete their entire sentences and be subject to extension of their sentence if a panel of experts decides it's in the interest of the public. Yes... I'm being hypocritical... I don't want this panel of experts to use psychology to let dangerous offenders out early but I'm perfectly happy to let them use psychology to keep them in longer. In this way, you get real deterrent and you get public safety but you leave the question of the timing of another human beings death in the hands of God - where it belongs.
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Estee 57126 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:09 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Let me get this straight" |
No, no -- the point is that Jesus didn't say a lot of things. In fact, the things he didn't say are just about infinite in number. Which means that if you take his unspoken words as gospel, you'll eventually find something he never uttered which justifies exactly what you want to do. And since he didn't tell you to do it, he's giving you open license to follow his non-orders. Which means you can do whatever you want to, in the name of Jesus.Let me know when y'all stop shaking.
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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 03:14 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Let me get this straight" |
amen
*snort* that's a grunt snort not a ha ha snort
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Maroonclown 5829 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:32 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
Aren't we all given the death penalty as soon as we're born? In that sense, depending on how you view the afterlife, I would say yes, Jesus is for the death penalty. It's the gateway to an everlasting afterlife.*slinks out of thread*  copyright smokeysmom
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Tahj 4136 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 04:49 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
Well slink back in.It's the gateway to an everlasting afterlife. Uh, does it occur to you that in that case it's not a penalty? And no, we aren't all given the death penalty since dying is not a punishment, it's a transition. 
It's a Tribe!
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Maroonclown 5829 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 09:28 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
Sure it occured to me. Perhaps the word "inevitable" should be used instead of "penalty"But while we're on this earth do we not all dread the end? Are we all not afraid of death until we start to experience it? While we're young and healthy, death seems like a penalty, something that we are doomed to experience. It's not only until those last few moments that we accept our fate and succumb. Much like I imagine those during their final moments before that penalty of death-inducing injection or that last freeing moment of letting go after a long battle with a terminal disease. copyright smokeysmom
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Tahj 4136 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 11:02 AM (EST)
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66. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
While we're young and healthy, death seems like a penalty, something that we are doomed to experience. It's not only until those last few moments that we accept our fate and succumb.This topic could probably be it's own thread.
It's interesting to me that you use "we" and "we're" because it makes it sound like you're speaking for everyone. I wonder how many others agree with you.
I personally don't feel doomed about dying. I've also accepted my fate and succumbed to the idea that I'm gonna die. But to me death is fascinating and intriguing because it's such a mystery. As I've said above, I see it as a transition from the physical plane to the nonphysical.
It's a Tribe!
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Colonel Zoidberg 3662 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 10:05 AM (EST)
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64. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
Depends on your definition of "penalty." The word usually has a negative connotation...i.e. the penalty for stealing is jail time, but it can also simply mean the consequences for one's action. If you feed, care for, and play with your cat, the penalty is that he trusts you and is good company.Therefore, if you're born, the penalty is that you will one day die. So yes, essentially, by being born, we are all given the death penalty. By God/Jesus/Mother Nature/Vishnu/Flying Spaghetti Monster/Rocco. The question is if humans should enact the death penalty, as if to expedite the process. My vote for that is no.
Congrats Red Wings! 2008 Stanley Cup Champions!
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Tahj 4136 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 11:15 AM (EST)
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67. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
That's quite a spin you've put on the definition. To me it means some form of punishment or suffering. If you feed, care for, and play with your cat, the penalty is that he trusts you and is good company. In this example I would replace "penalty" with "reward", which is the opposite. Therefore, if you're born, the penalty is that you will one day die. So yes, essentially, by being born, we are all given the death penalty. Birth and death are events in one's life. The consequence of being born is that you're alive and get to live your life. I see death as a part of life. I don't separate the two.
It's a Tribe!
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bondt007 3413 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:56 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
I think the question is moot. (a) people wouldn't want him to vote
(b) people wouldn't care if he did vote
(c) He wouldn't vote anyway
>Issued by "Q" and RollDdice
Charter Member, April 2001; Club Anti-DAW
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 11:44 PM (EST)
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59. "RE: Would Jesus own a gun?" |
Well, hello! It's been a while.
Surfkitten Summer sigshop 2008
Succinct as ever, too.
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Smooth23 1244 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 01:55 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
First, let me point out that there is a LONG way to go from the supreme court ruling the ban unconstitutional to there being any concealed weapon legality in DC. As for gun crimes increasing before it goes down, that just isn't how it works. I don't think it will be a fast reduction in crime either, but a slow decline over the next several years. Also, accidental injuries from guns are outweighed vastly by the number of murders, etc. prevented. Really though, I'm more interested in seeing the impact of this decision on certain states, namely Illinois. 
Two to the chest, one to the occular.
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 02:11 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
I'm more interested in seeing the impact of this decision on certain states, namely Illinois.Why Illinois in particular?
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 05:34 PM (EST)
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44. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Just make sure it's also not loaded and it is enclosed within a gun case. Having it locked in the trunk out of arm's reach is not enough.Illinois gun laws: "Nonresidents are subject to Illinois law, restrictions, and penalties, and should be familiar with them if the nonresident plans to bring a firearm into the state."
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 10:25 PM (EST)
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54. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Just stay out of the south side and you'll be fine.
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ginger 22512 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 05:15 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
According to My Elevator, in 1959 polls showed about 60% of people in the US favored a ban on handguns owned by citizens, compared to 2007 polls reflecting about 30% favoring such a ban.Of course, El cites no sources, and could be pulling stats out of its elevator arse, but I found the item interesting. 
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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 06:48 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
My general sense is that, since random crime is down, this is about right. Support for gun controls in the mass population (leaving out the extremes) tends to track with the crime rate.Of course, the right to bear arms isn't the only right that gets infringed when people feel insecure. We've seen an unfortunate first-hand example over the last few years.
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IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 10:11 PM (EST)
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53. "*zoolander voice*" |
Your... elevator?... has an arse?
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RudyRules 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 07:21 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
It's a great day in America...
A;though sad that we are only one SCJ away from losing an important right. All the more reason to keep Obama and his ilk out of power.
A TP production!
"Them people had to be pretty dumb to make their camp in a riverbed." - Rudy Boesch
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bullzeye 5030 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 10:31 PM (EST)
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55. "Just Curious" |
Are there any other countries that entrench the right to bear arms in their constitutions or equivalent?
Chiseled by Abman Agman!
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Snidget 44369 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 07:07 AM (EST)
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61. "RE: Just Curious" |
You may be thinking of Switzerland where every male is required to have military service and with part of that they have a high rate of gun ownership, but I thought mostly they had military rifles, not handgunsOff to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland "The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations." "Each such individual keeps his army-issued personal weapon (the Sig 550 5.56x45 mm assault rifle for enlisted personnel, the SIG 510 battle rifle and/or the SIG-Sauer P220 9 mm semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel)" "When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment. In this case of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then returned to the discharged owner. The rifle is then a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle." In addition to cultural differences in many other areas, I think that is part of a military obligation may be part of what also makes the statistics of who gets shot up with guns different. They do have gun crime and there are people who are not allowed to buy arms, and they limit the number of guns anyone one person can own. They also have a lot of regulations about carrying guns around in public. Like in the US it does seem that domestic violence often happens with legally owned guns, and other crimes with illegal guns.
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-26-08, 11:53 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: Just Curious" |
LAST EDITED ON 06-26-08 AT 11:59 PM (EST)Conversely, I can name numerous countries where the opposite is true, including my 'second home' Malaysia and most other countries in SE Asia and East Asia. And frankly, I think it's a good idea in these countries (maybe any country, for that matter) that guns are not in the hands of the average citizen. (eta) ... and average criminal.
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Dakota 5819 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 07:53 AM (EST)
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62. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Chicago also has a handgun ban on the books, yet the county hospital still treats gunshot wounds on a regular basis. They're supposedly quite good at it, according to gang bangers who spoke to a reporter but wouldn't give their names. I don't know what effect this ruling will have on crime, but it will upset the now famous Father Pfleger. 
Surfkitten Summer Sigshop 2008
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smokeysmom 184 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 10:25 AM (EST)
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65. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
I've had a chance to read and think about this, though I have no idea or opinion on what Jesus would do.The SC's decision seemed to weigh heavily on the side of a handgun being more "convenient" -- as in easier to hide, shoot, heft, etc. -- which is an odd measure to me. While I would never own or use a gun, it would seem that consistent regulation -- countrywide -- would make the most sense. Obviously, those in DC with intent can go to Maryland or Virginia, etc. It seems that if guns were contained, taxed and regulated more along the lines of cigarettes and alcohol it would be a help. I frankly don't understand why the NRA and its ilk are completely against ANY regulation -- surely as they are all legal, trained and responsible gun owners regulations wouldn't affect them? I know there are statistics to support both sides of the "deterrent" question, but here's a comparison that seems pretty clear to me: In 2005/06 there were 766 offences initially recorded as homicide by the police in England and Wales (including the 52 victims of the 7 July 2005 London bombings), a rate of 1.4 per 100,000 of population. Only 50 (6.6%) were committed with firearms, one being with an air weapon. The homicide rate for London was 2.4 per 100,000 in the same year (1.7 when excluding the 7 July bombings). By comparison, 5.5 murders per 100,000 of population were reported by police in the United States in 2000, of which 70% involved the use of firearms. New York City, with a population size similar to London (over 8 million residents), reported 6.9 murders per 100,000 people in 2004. 6.6 percent of England/Wales homicides (where gun control, though weakening has been very strong) were committed with firearms. 70% of US homicides were committed with firearms. 6.6% vs. 70%. I think any killing of a person whether by the State (death penalty) or another person is completely and 100% wrong, that's my opinion, and Jesus can have his.
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Smooth23 1244 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 01:54 PM (EST)
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68. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
So the stance that you've just taken is that there is no correlation between gun ownership and murder. If someones gonna kill someone, they'll do it regardless.Also, as far as homicides go, the reporting standards and definition of what is listed as a homicide are rather intricate, confusing and inconsistant the world around.
Bang
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smokeysmom 184 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 02:12 PM (EST)
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69. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
I tried to make it pretty clear that my personal stance was that I would neither kill someone, or support the state doing so -- ever.I was loathe to try to post any statistics as I know "numbers" can be made to support a wide range of positions. Rather than taking a stance (great gun terminology by the way!), I was trying to report that in a country with strict gun controls roughly 7% of homicides were gun related. As opposed to 70% in our country. Maybe it's really 10% vs. 60%... or 20% vs. 50?%? It didn't seem like a pretty glaring difference to you? Actually, I'm curious as to what "stance" you're taking? That since reporting standards vary, guns without regulation are the way to go? Not really answering my question about why gun supporters (is that the right name?) are against any kind of regulation...? I know we won't change our opinions / agree here, just wanted to get mine out there. YMMV.
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Smooth23 1244 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 09:46 PM (EST)
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70. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
No, I understand you not supporting killing people or the state doing so.What I was pointing out, was that even by your statistics, just because guns were used for a higher percentage of murders here, doesn't mean the murders wouldn't happen anyhow. 5.5 people per 100,000 in the US are murdered, 70% of those by gun. Your London stats say 6.6 people are killed per 100,000, but only 6.6 percent of those are murdered with guns. 440 murders/8 million pop in US
528 murders/8 million pop in UK. Clearly their gun control is NOT working as a crime prevention. Murderers are going to murder. I hope that clears it up? And my stance on gun regulations? I think they are majorly pointless, but I do support the instant criminal background checks to help prevent felons from owning guns. As a general rule, crimes are not usually committed with legal guns.
I also support the requirement that you notify law enforcement as soon as a gun is found missing/stolen.
Bang
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 10:29 PM (EST)
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72. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
I'm not a math genius, but it looks like you've made up some figures. To wit:From smokeymom's post: "In 2005/06 there were 766 offences initially recorded as homicide by the police in England and Wales (including the 52 victims of the 7 July 2005 London bombings), a rate of 1.4 per 100,000 of population." This translates to (1.4 x 80) per (100,000 x 80) population, or 112 per 8 million population in UK/Wales - not "528 murders/8 million pop in UK" as you had posted. At least your 440 figure is correct. I have no idea where that 528 figure came from. I'm also confused as to why you wish to translate this to 8 million population specifically, when already given the original 100,000 population figure as provided. Given the original figures as posted, smokeymom's point is valid. You hope that clears it up? Hit the 'Clear' on the calculator when doing a new calculation.
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-27-08, 10:59 PM (EST)
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74. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
But that's okay, if I wanted to I could pull up some numbers that support my case. I'm just to tired to do math, let alone look up a source.Another formula: No source + no figures = no case.
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cahaya 19891 desperate attention whore postings
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06-28-08, 00:29 AM (EST)
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76. "RE: Court Supports Gun Rights" |
Source. (easily found)I'm not berating you, but I hope to make it clear to you that your claim (or counter-argument) has no credence without any evidence to support it.
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