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"2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-28-12, 03:52 PM (EST)
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"2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
Well, we all knew it was coming for a while now, and here it is at last: The Year Of The Cheater. The only thing uglier than this vote will be the excuses made afterwards. And, given a couple of the parties involved, the inevitable discrimination lawsuits.

Here's the list. Debuting candidates are marked with '1st': everyone else gets their last voting percentage.

Sandy Alomar Jr. 1st
Jeff Bagwell 58.0
Craig Biggio 1st
Barry Bonds 1st
Jeff Cirillo 1st
Royce Clayton 1st
Roger Clemens 1st
Jeff Conine 1st
Steve Finley 1st
Julio Franco 1st
Shawn Green 1st
Roberto Hernandez 1st
Ryan Klesko 1st
Kenny Lofton 1st
Edgar Martinez 36.5
Don Mattingly 17.8
Fred McGriff 23.9
Mark McGwire 19.5
Jose Mesa 1st
Jack Morris 66.7
Dale Murphy 14.5 (final year)
Rafael Palmeiro 12.6
Mike Piazza 1st
Tim Raines 48.7
Reggie Sanders 1st
Curt Schilling 1st
Aaron Sele 1st
Lee Smith 50.6
Sammy Sosa 1st
Mike Stanton 1st
Alan Trammell 36.8
Larry Walker 22.9
Todd Walker 1st
David Wells 1st
Rondell White 1st
Bernie Williams 9.6
Woody Williams 1st

And for me, this is easy. For induction:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Edgar Martinez
Jack Morris
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell

And as a courtesy thanks-for-the-memories vote:

David Wells

Everyone else can buy a ticket.

Where they would promptly deface every plaque in sight.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... PepeLePew13 11-28-12 1
 Wow AyaK 11-29-12 2
 RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... Molaholic 11-29-12 3
 RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... kingfish 12-01-12 4
 RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... aethelstan 12-07-12 5
   RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... PepeLePew13 12-07-12 6
       RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... aethelstan 12-29-12 9
           RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... Max Headroom 12-29-12 10
               RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... aethelstan 01-02-13 12
                   RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... PepeLePew13 01-02-13 13
                   RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... aethelstan 01-09-13 20
           RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... PepeLePew13 12-30-12 11
   RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ball... aethelstan 12-29-12 8
 ESPN's Hall Of 100. Estee 12-11-12 7
 An empty summer day? Estee 01-09-13 14
   RE: An empty summer day? kingfish 01-09-13 15
       RE: An empty summer day? Estee 01-09-13 16
           RE: An empty summer day? kingfish 01-09-13 17
   And the votes are in Molaholic 01-09-13 18
       RE: And the votes are in kingfish 01-09-13 19
 No HOF for A-Rod kingfish 01-29-13 21
   RE: No HOF for A-Rod Estee 01-30-13 22
   Curt is a No Go for HOF too. kingfish 02-08-13 23
       RE: Curt is a No Go for HOF too. PepeLePew13 02-08-13 24
           RE: Curt is a No Go for HOF too. kingfish 02-08-13 25
               RE: Curt is a No Go for HOF too. PepeLePew13 02-08-13 26
                   RE: Curt is a No Go for HOF too. kingfish 02-08-13 27

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-28-12, 05:47 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
LAST EDITED ON 11-28-12 AT 05:51 PM (EST)

This is going to be fun to see what happens when the votes are announced. The writers are going to be all a-twitter over the next few weeks beating each other over the heads over who's right and who's wrong.

My ballot:

J. Bagwell
M. Piazza
L. Walker
E. Martinez
T. Raines
F. McGriff


Hemming and hawing over - maybe next year:
C. Biggio
C. Schilling
K. Lofton
B. Williams
L. Smith

M. Stanton is a bit young for the HOF... ah you mean the reliever, not the newly-renamed Giancarlo.

Bonds and Clemens can rot in hell. I don't have much animosity towards Sosa for some reason, but while he's a Hall of Fame talent (several 30-30 seasons before he likely juiced up), he shouldn't get in before Bonds/Clemens. Ditto for McGwire who was far more one-dimensional than Bonds, Clemens and Sosa.

I've made this argument before and will do so again... if Jim Rice and Andre Dawson are in the Hall of Fame, then Larry Walker has to be in as well. Rice had a rather pronounced difference in his Fenway vs. away splits, and Walker had better road numbers than Rice. The year Walker won the MVP, he had a better OPS on the road (1.176) than he did at home (1.169) with 29 HRs away compared to 20 at Coors. Overall, it's hard to ignore his career .313/.400/.565 numbers regardless of where he played (if Coors was so friendly, how come nobody else matched these numbers other than Helton who has a better BA but is lower in slugging?).

1 MVP, 7 gold gloves, 3 batting titles, 4 seasons at .350+, multiple Silver Sluggers and All-Star appearances, and has an adjusted OPS+ that is 72nd all time which is ahead of guys like Cobb, Mays, Mize, Thome and ARod.

Overall, his numbers are better than Rice, another famously home field-leaning player. Put Walker into the Hall.

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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
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11-29-12, 00:54 AM (EST)
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2. "Wow"
This is hard. So let's start with the easy stuff. These guys were on my ballot last year, and nothing has changed that would make me stop supporting them:

Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Larry Walker
Jeff Bagwell
Alan Trammell

I almost voted for Jack Morris last year. Now Curt Schilling is on the ballot. They're both very similar: dominating big-game pitchers who don't have outstanding numbers. But so what? They were dominating.

Craig Biggio and Mike Piazza are also locks to me. Goodness, that makes nine. And then there are Melonhead and Buttshot. I just can't vote for them on the first ballot, even if they were proven HOF talents BEFORE using 'roids.

So that makes this year's ballot equal to:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Edgar Martinez
Jack Morris
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Sooner or later, I'm going to vote for Melonhead and Buttshot. But not this year. I'm not sure whether I'll ever vote for Mark McSteroid or Sammy Steroid, but Melonhead won three MVPs with the Pirates and Giants before meeting Victor Conte, and Buttshot won three Cy Youngs with the Red Sox before he joined the 'roid militia, so I really don't know why they don't belong simply due to their pre-cheating performance. But -- I'm going to ding them for poor character this year and revisit this next year.

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Molaholic 8451 desperate attention whore postings
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11-29-12, 11:35 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
As others have already posted, this will be an interesting voting season. I'd hate to think that some voters will take an attitude of "well, it wasn't actually against the rules when they did it, so it doesn't matter." >bullfeces<

My predictions:

From the Freshman class:
Biggio & Schilling (Alomar & Piazza may come close)

Others:
Bagwell & Morris

I can't see more than four getting the required 75% though.

Add my support for Larry Walker. (As a side note: I was at the game at Dodger Stadium when, with one out and a runner on second, Walker caught an easy fly ball to right. He then started to trot in to the dugout and tossed the ball to a kid in the front row. He realized his goofus majorous right as the kid caught the ball, and Walker reached in and grabbed it back, tossing it in as the run scored. We loved it.)

If I were voting:

The aforementioned inductees, near inductees & Walker, plus Lee Smith.

Maybe the Killer B's can have a joint plaque.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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12-01-12, 12:17 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
LAST EDITED ON 12-01-12 AT 12:28 PM (EST)

Bagwell
Biggio
Mcgriff
Morris
Walker
Piazza

And Clemens

Rose was convicted of gambling. Sosa and McGwire admitted steroid use (although McGuire only admitted using a topical spray that was legal at the time). Bonds tested positive.

Clemens never tested positive, never appeared to be suddenly bulked up (his physique was stout throughout his career, and can't be reliably ascribed to steroids), and he was never proven to have used steroids. The only person to offer testimony that contradicted his claim in court was an admitted and proven liar, and he (Clemens) was proven innocent of perjury in connection with steroid use.

I think, at the end of they day, since none of the sports writers were there, that they shouldn't assume guilt without direct proof. Therefore to deny him HOF entry on the basis of unproven allegations would not be right.

I don't think that they should ignore the fact the Clemens was cleared legally of Steroid use. It's a consensus of selected sports writer's opinions, but hopefully they are taking into account the fact the he is legally innocent of anything improper associate with baseball.

So far, just being an arrogant a'hole hasn't been a disqualifying factor to HOF entry. If it was, Clemens would be out, but there would also be a few others that wouldn't have made it.

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aethelstan 4348 desperate attention whore postings
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12-07-12, 03:27 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."

This is going to be an interesting year for a number of reasons. Obviously, you've got the admitted to and alleged steroid/HGH use by a number of players who, on raw numbers, would be shoe-ins.

It will also be interesting in that there are more candidates than usual who have a legitimate case to make the Hall. For some voters, that will mean having a full 10 names on the ballot. For others, the numbers of the non-suspected players will pale in comparison to the others that they will be excluded and for still others, the non-suspected players will be more favourably seen and/or more deserving since they put up decent numbers despite playing against steroid users.

Finally, I'm sad that one of my favourite players, Vladimir Guerrero, didn't play this year. If he had 3 more years like his last 3 years (2 of which were remarkably pedestrian), he would have been sitting on 3000 hits and 500 HRs and a host of other catchy numbers. Now, I'm not sure if he gets in or not. I think he was better than Bagwell or Walker but will it be enough? It will likely depend on who else is on the ballot when his time comes.

My ballot:
Bagwell
Piazza
Walker
Raines
McGriff
Biggio (didn't he go from C to middle infielder to CF and played all reasonably well?)

Thinking about it and could be persuaded to vote for:
Martinez
Schilling

Still not inclined to vote for but can recognize why others would:
Trammell
Morris

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12-07-12, 04:36 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
LAST EDITED ON 12-07-12 AT 04:38 PM (EST)

That brings up an interesting point of discussion about Vladdy. I believe he's a HOFer even with his career apparently coming to an end now. There's just not too many guys with a whole package such as a .318 average and just shy of 450 HRs, 1500 RBIs, over 2500 hits, 180 SBs, and a MVP. His HOF standards and monitor scores are 40th and 41st all time, respectively, ahead of plenty of other guys already in the HOF.

Here's my thoughts on future candidacy of current players and unretired players:
(Notes: this naturally assumes there are no drug suspensions/allegations to come. Also I'm reducing my scope to 10+ year players and looking at their current career arcs)


First ballot, no doubt:
Derek Jeter
Albert Pujols
Mariano Riviera
Miguel Cabrera (assuming career arc stays the same)


Possible first ballot, more likely during first few years on ballot:
Jim Thome
Chipper Jones
Ichiro Suzuki


Will get in at some point (the latter guys after Vladdy based on career arc):
Vladimir Guerrero
Roy Halladay
Andy Pettite
CC Sabathia


Will stick around on the ballot for a period of time, may or may not get in:
Todd Helton
Jorge Posada
Mark Teixeira
Andruw Jones
Johnny Damon


The 'debate' guys, I don't see them getting in (as yet - some of these guys will need a few more good years to move up):
Omar Vizquel
Michael Young
Jimmy Rollins
Carlos Beltran
David Ortiz
Bobby Abreu
Chase Utley
Aramis Ramirez (for as long as he's been around, I was surprised to see he's still only 34 and is still hitting at a premium position)
Jason Giambi
Lance Berkman
Mark Buerhle
Jose Reyes
Tim Hudson


Nice careers, but probably won't last long on the ballot:
Scott Rolen
Roy Oswalt
Johan Santana (will need to get and stay healthy for the next 5+ years to move up)
Cliff Lee


Let's see how the voters respond to Bonds/Clemens first, but pure stats say they're no-doubt HOFers:
Manny Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez


Less than 10+ years but have compelling criteria built up so far:
Justin Verlander (only one season out of 7 with fewer than 17 wins, top two in Cy voting past two years)
Joe Mauer (3 batting titles, MVP, .323 career average)
Felix Hernandez (Cy Young and 98 wins at the age of 26)
Clayton Kershaw (61 wins, top 2 in Cy past two seasons at age 24)
Tim Lincecum (2 Cys, 2 WS in five years, will need to rescue his career)
Ryan Braun (massive numbers in each of his 6 seasons so far, plus a MVP)
Prince Fielder (too early? 260 HR in 8 years at the age of 28)

I've probably forgotten some names, but let's go with this for now.

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aethelstan 4348 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-12, 00:38 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
As you don't have Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Kent, Mussina, etc.; or Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, etc. I'm trying to figure out how 'recently retired' you're talking about. Ken Griffey leads the 2016 class while I-Rod and Man-Ram come on in 2017 so I guess you were just looking at people eligible in 2018 or beyond. Hang on, baseball-reference.com has Vladdy in for 2017 but your other names are 2018 and beyond.

In any case, I agree with your top 7 being more 'shoe-in' than Guerrero. I also agree with the 3 others you have with Guerrero though they still have time to enhance their candidacy. I can't see the others getting in except the issue of Ramirez and A-Rod.

Funny thing about Ramirez is that he is probably the best player whose rookie card I own. I have Upper Deck cards from 1989-1993 (90-92 being very close to complete - and most of my '93s are still in the packs). A friend of mine got the Michael Jordan '91 card in a purchased pack, not at a specialty store.

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Max Headroom 10028 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-12, 06:57 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
Glavine isn't eligible until 2014. As someone who has his autograph on a baseball, I hope he gets in on the first ballot.
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01-02-13, 12:38 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
wow. I've been having all sorts of trouble in the past few days staying logged into rtvw. weird.

Glavine isn't eligible until 2014.

I know. That's why I grouped Glavine, Maddux et al first, followed by Johnson and co. (eligible in 2015) and so on.

They said that this year was a record year for names on the ballot with 37. I think next year will be even bigger as there will probably be a record number of holdovers from this year.

Having read this article (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/21440492/ranking-the-2013-hall-of-fame-candidates-no-7-alan-trammell), I will start supporting Alan Trammell's bid for the Hall. The whole series by Cbs sports was quite good and really made the case for Raines and Walker (who are of personal interest to me).

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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01-02-13, 09:47 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
Thought you'd like this... plenty of good arguments that Larry Walker fits in as a Hall of Famer.

http://www.canadianbaseballnetwork.com/articles/larry-walker-the-case-for-cooperstown/

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01-09-13, 10:23 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
Ahh rats. I was going to point up to this email and say I guessed this might happen but the proof went with my first post and I didn't bother retyping it all out when I couldn't figure out hw to log in. Oh well. I had said something like 'I wouldn't be surprised if no one got in because there are enough voters that won't for suspected PED users and those who will (vote for them) will say the others' stats just don't compare to Bonds, Clemens, et al.'
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-30-12, 09:29 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
LAST EDITED ON 12-30-12 AT 10:02 AM (EST)

I'm referring to guys that haven't announced their retirements, such as Vladdy and Manny, in the category of unretireds. Players who have already formally retired aren't included.

ETA: Add Adrian Beltre to the "may or may not get in but will stick around on the ballot" category - he's still only 33 and has 2200+ hits, 350 HR, 1200+ RBI and a fabulous defender so he may move up to the Vlad/Doc level of "in at some point" especially considering he's had his second and third best HR seasons in 2011/12. I somehow overlooked him while compiling my list above, perhaps an apt description considering how he's been mostly overlooked throughout his career despite his high quality of play.

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12-29-12, 00:22 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: 2013 Baseball Hall Of Fame ballot."
Just read this article in cbssports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/21440492/ranking-the-2013-hall-of-fame-candidates-no-7-alan-trammell) and I've changed my mind on Trammell.

The article had great pieces on all the main candidates and really make the case for people like Walker and Raines, too.

I wonder if this will become a strange year where no one gets in but 10 people get between 50 and 70% of ballots. Some left off due to suspected PEDs and others left off because they don't compare favourably, statistically, to those suspected PED users.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-11-12, 04:28 PM (EST)
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7. "ESPN's Hall Of 100."
Oh boy...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video/_/id/8652210/espn-hall-100-ranking-all-time-greatest-mlb-players

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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01-09-13, 02:27 PM (EST)
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14. "An empty summer day?"
Current rumors have the favorite for induction as 'None Of The Above'. Said rumors claim that so many writers sent in blank ballots (tarring everyone with one brush), it's impossible to get anyone to 75% of the vote because 75% of the vote wasn't cast. This sounds like an exaggeration, but I have seen a couple of opt-out columns and know a few people chose to vote with their feet. It also sounds like Mike Piazza is not getting in regardless. First year, second year, and probably ever.

We'll know in less than an hour, but the local celebration has already been cancelled.

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01-09-13, 03:13 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: An empty summer day?"
LAST EDITED ON 01-09-13 AT 03:28 PM (EST)

Probably the most unjust result would be to deny Piazza entry. Might just as well and declare the doors to Coopertown sealed forever, and forgetaboutit the whole voting in thing.

We'll see, but the sportswriters might just be making themselves and the process irrelevant.

ETA: It's official, Estee was right, no one was voted in this year.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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01-09-13, 04:31 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: An empty summer day?"
The Veteran's Committee did let three people in, but they're all long-deceased and reincarnations generally aren't allowed to speak or know they're supposed to.

I'll be darkly amused to see if this protest policy of 'one cheater means no ballot' continues for the nomination life of each potentially suspected player. If so, the Hall will be sealed for a decade-plus, especially since the museum already said it has no plans to change the way inductions are run. I'm particularly looking forward to next year. Imagine the justice which will be delivered when Greg Maddux doesn't get in.

By the way, one voter who declared blank ballot for all suspected cheaters basically also said the only thing more wrong than letting someone who had access to steroids (used or not) in would be to take someone who openly admitted to using drugs out. Don't worry, Mantle fans -- he and all other greenie swallowers are totally safe!

Because back then, it was tradition.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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01-09-13, 05:20 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: An empty summer day?"
I hereby accuse Maddux of having used PEDs. And Glavine. And Rivera (Is he still awaiting his time?). Jeter? Rodriguez (Oh, yeah, he probably was a doper).

If an accusation is all takes to disqualify a potential HOF entree, we might as well push this thing to the limit.

I accuse the BBHOF writers/voters of having used drugs!!!

Bud Selig too. I accuse him too.

Babe Ruth used drugs. And (gasp) Lou Gehrig certainly did (of course, he had his disease. But hey, no free passes in baseball). Joe DiMaggio!

(Hold me backÖIím just getting started here).

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01-09-13, 05:32 PM (EST)
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18. "And the votes are in"
With no one getting the required 75%.

Biggio - 68.2%
Morris - 67.7%
Bagwell - 59.6%
Piazza - 57.8%
Raines - 52.2%

First time in many years that no living inductees will be available.

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01-09-13, 09:50 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: And the votes are in"
And Biggio!

All he did was give his all at catcher till his knees began to give, then at second till he lost a step, then in center, All-Star hustle all the way, and all the time a 300 (more or less) hitter and perennial base stealer. A clean reincarnation of Pete Rose. Well, almost.

I think I'll call off any plans I might have had to visit Cooperstown.

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01-29-13, 02:04 PM (EST)
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21. "No HOF for A-Rod"
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/01/29/yankees-alex-rodriguez-reportedly-linked-to-recent-purchasing-peds/?test=latestnews
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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01-30-13, 09:58 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: No HOF for A-Rod"
The three seasons he already admitted to being on some amount of drugs (cousin! cousin!) didn't help his chances with the hardliners. This? Is going to make his PR team cry. All those scripted apologies that no one bought into, and now they have to write more of them -- all guaranteed to be ignored. Poor, poor PR team. Drop him.

The Yankees are supposedly going over his contract with an electron microscope, hoping there's some way his being found guilty would get them out of paying the remainder. It's apparently not working out as they'd hoped.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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02-08-13, 12:04 PM (EST)
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23. "Curt is a No Go for HOF too."
And maybe the Red Sox as well.

http://tiny.cc/CurtNoGo

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02-08-13, 12:59 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Curt is a No Go for HOF too."
Schilling may get some props from the writers for willing to be open on the steroids issue - and he said that this issue came up during his final season when he was considering whether to extend his career or not (he didn't), so he doesn't have the same stigma that others do.

I think Schilling will still get into the HOF after the big names of the next 3-4 years get in.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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02-08-13, 02:26 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Curt is a No Go for HOF too."
LAST EDITED ON 02-08-13 AT 03:01 PM (EST)

That doesn't seem to be in agreement with the prevailing winds.

- no one who has admitted to steroid has been voted in.
- no one who tested positive was voted in.
- no one who has been accused of steroid use is in, despite no positive results or convictions. An accusation is apparently all it takes to kill one's chances.
- no one is in who used legal steroids.

The only BB HOFers who may have used steroids are those who did it before it became an issue, about 1990 I guess. The days of hear-see-speak no evil.

Not much chance that Curt will get in until there is a change of attitude among some BB writers, either in opinion or by mortality.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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02-08-13, 03:16 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Curt is a No Go for HOF too."
Schilling has never admitted to using or been accused of using steroids (as far as I'm aware of) and he said that this "suggestion" from the Red Sox came after he had thrown his final pitch as a big leaguer.
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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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02-08-13, 04:52 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Curt is a No Go for HOF too."
You are right.

But when the atmosphere among the voters is such that players who should normally be easily voted into the HOF who did not use illegal PEDs are kept out, or when another who never admitted to PED use, never tested positive, who was aquitted in court, and whose sole case for PED use was an accusation is kept out, it's fair to guess that with voters like that, that just being mentioned in a conversation in which someone like Curt is urged to use them would be sufficient to paint him as a PED user.

Apparently, it's not necessary for him to admit it, or be caught red handed, it only sufficient to somehow be associated with PEDs.

I hope you're right. I hope some fairness gets introduced into the selection process and he is admitted. Because I'm afraid that every MLB player who performed to the levels needed for HOF these days can be associated with PED use, rightly or wrongly.

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