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"Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-08-11, 01:39 PM (EST)
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"Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I agree pretty much with everything this writer says here.

They failed. They failed all those little boys. It makes my stomach turn what they did. How can you KNOW about these incidents and not report it to the law? How can you not do something? Disgusting.



We remain free to dislike anyone we please, but the Constitution continues to demand that we respect their civil rights.- MO

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Breezy 11-08-11 1
 RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-08-11 2
   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Breezy 11-08-11 3
       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? PepeLePew13 11-08-11 4
           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-08-11 5
               RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? kingfish 11-08-11 6
 Rally at Paterno's house. Estee 11-09-11 7
 RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? KeithFan 11-09-11 8
   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-09-11 9
 The slow-out. Estee 11-09-11 10
   RE: The slow-out. Breezy 11-09-11 12
   RE: The slow-out. byoffer 11-09-11 14
       RE: The slow-out. Estee 11-09-11 16
 RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? samboohoo 11-09-11 11
 RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? HobbsofMI 11-09-11 13
   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-09-11 15
       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? AyaK 11-09-11 17
           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-09-11 18
           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? HobbsofMI 11-09-11 19
               RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? AyaK 11-09-11 21
                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-09-11 22
                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-09-11 23
                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? HobbsofMI 11-10-11 27
                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? PepeLePew13 11-10-11 33
                           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-10-11 35
                           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? newsomewayne 11-10-11 37
                               And to top it off: Estee 11-10-11 39
                           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? HobbsofMI 11-10-11 41
                               RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? moonbaby 11-10-11 45
                               RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? PepeLePew13 11-10-11 49
                                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-10-11 51
                                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? HobbsofMI 11-10-11 53
                                       Exactly moonbaby 11-10-11 61
                                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? newsomewayne 11-10-11 54
                                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-10-11 55
                                           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? PepeLePew13 11-10-11 62
                                               RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? HobbsofMI 11-10-11 67
                                                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? PepeLePew13 11-11-11 72
                                                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? zipperhead 11-11-11 73
                                                           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? mrc 11-11-11 74
                                                               RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-11-11 75
                                                                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-11-11 77
                                                                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-11-11 80
                                                                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-11-11 83
                                                                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? zipperhead 11-11-11 78
                                                                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-11-11 79
                                                                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-11-11 81
                                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-10-11 57
                                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? cahaya 11-11-11 69
                   Was his paid job a bribe? HobbsofMI 11-10-11 66
           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Breezy 11-09-11 20
               RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? mrc 11-10-11 29
 Forced out ... NOW PepeLePew13 11-09-11 24
   RE: Forced out ... NOW bondt007 11-10-11 25
   RE: Forced out ... NOW Estee 11-10-11 26
       RE: Forced out ... NOW cahaya 11-10-11 30
 It was only a small riot. Estee 11-10-11 28
   RE: It was only a small riot. moonbaby 11-10-11 31
   RE: It was only a small riot. cahaya 11-10-11 32
   RE: It was only a small riot. bondt007 11-10-11 34
       RE: It was only a small riot. Estee 11-10-11 36
 McQueary currently still employed. Estee 11-10-11 38
 So he's the half-man! Estee 11-10-11 40
 Newest rumor: HobbsofMI 11-10-11 42
   RE: Newest rumor: cahaya 11-10-11 48
       RE: Newest rumor: Estee 11-10-11 50
 Contrast McQueary with these kids mrc 11-10-11 43
   RE: Contrast McQueary with these ki... newsomewayne 11-10-11 47
 Ashton Kutcher weighs in mrc 11-10-11 44
   RE: Ashton Kutcher weighs in Estee 11-10-11 46
 Baord says McQueary will not be coa... HobbsofMI 11-10-11 52
   RE: Baord says McQueary will not be... emydi 11-11-11 70
 Child Abuse Laws moonbaby 11-10-11 56
   RE: Child Abuse Laws Snidget 11-10-11 64
       RE: Child Abuse Laws emydi 11-11-11 71
           The Freeh Report moonbaby 07-15-12 204
   RE: Child Abuse Laws jbug 11-11-11 76
       RE: Child Abuse Laws Snidget 11-11-11 85
 Missing D.A. mrc 11-10-11 58
   RE: Missing D.A. Snidget 11-10-11 59
       RE: Missing D.A. PepeLePew13 11-10-11 63
           RE: Missing D.A. Snidget 11-10-11 65
               RE: Missing D.A. cahaya 11-11-11 68
   RE: Missing D.A. Estee 11-10-11 60
 McQueary now on adminstrative leave... Estee 11-11-11 82
   RE: McQueary now on adminstrative l... Snidget 11-11-11 84
       RE: McQueary now on adminstrative l... Estee 11-11-11 86
 On game day... Estee 11-12-11 87
 An administrative pattern forms. Estee 11-12-11 88
 McQueary may be fireproof. Estee 11-13-11 89
   RE: McQueary may be fireproof. Snidget 11-13-11 91
       RE: McQueary may be fireproof. Estee 11-13-11 92
           RE: McQueary may be fireproof. Snidget 11-13-11 93
               Conspiracy on Bail Snidget 11-14-11 97
 Paterno's Medal Of Freedom revoked. Estee 11-13-11 90
   RE: Paterno's Medal Of Freedom revo... newsomewayne 11-14-11 94
 disturbing? yes jbug 11-14-11 95
 Still more fallout. Estee 11-14-11 96
 Sandusky's defense. Estee 11-14-11 98
   RE: Sandusky's defense. Snidget 11-14-11 99
       RE: Sandusky's defense. Estee 11-14-11 100
   RE: Sandusky's defense. Breezy 11-15-11 101
   RE: Sandusky's defense. dabo 11-15-11 106
       RE: Sandusky's defense. Estee 11-15-11 107
           RE: Sandusky's defense. dabo 11-15-11 110
 RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? newsomewayne 11-15-11 102
   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-15-11 103
   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? byoffer 11-15-11 104
   Speak of the Devil newsomewayne 11-15-11 108
       Ahem. Estee 11-15-11 109
 Sandusky's lawyer Snidget 11-15-11 105
 McQueary's email sittem 11-16-11 111
   In one word: Estee 11-16-11 112
   RE: McQueary's email Breezy 11-16-11 113
       RE: McQueary's email newsomewayne 11-16-11 114
           RE: McQueary's email dabo 11-16-11 115
               RE: McQueary's email Estee 11-16-11 116
                   RE: McQueary's email HobbsofMI 11-16-11 117
                       RE: McQueary's email Estee 11-16-11 118
                       RE: McQueary's email dabo 11-16-11 124
                           RE: McQueary's email Estee 11-16-11 125
                               RE: McQueary's email dabo 11-16-11 126
 RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? bondt007 11-16-11 119
   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-16-11 120
   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-16-11 123
 New Conspiracy Snidget 11-16-11 121
   RE: New Conspiracy Estee 11-16-11 122
   RE: New Conspiracy emydi 11-17-11 129
 Should PEnn State get the death pen... mrc 11-17-11 127
   RE: Should PEnn State get the death... Estee 11-17-11 128
       RE: Should PEnn State get the death... Snidget 11-17-11 130
 RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-17-11 131
   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-17-11 132
       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Estee 11-17-11 133
       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? dabo 11-17-11 134
           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? emydi 11-18-11 136
               RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? dabo 11-18-11 137
                   RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? kingfish 11-19-11 140
                       RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? dabo 11-19-11 141
                           RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations? Snidget 11-19-11 142
 Story #2 breaks. Estee 11-18-11 135
   RE: Story #2 breaks. thndrkttn 12-02-11 146
       No criminal charges. Estee 12-07-11 152
 Paterno diagnosed with lung cancer HobbsofMI 11-18-11 138
   RE: Paterno diagnosed with lung can... dabo 11-18-11 139
 Things lawyers never say. Estee 12-01-11 143
   RE: Things lawyers never say. newsomewayne 12-01-11 144
 Costas on Daily Show dabo 12-02-11 145
 Set to testify. Estee 12-06-11 147
   RE: Set to testify. Snidget 12-06-11 148
 Story #3 breaks. Estee 12-06-11 149
   RE: Story #3 breaks. Snidget 12-06-11 150
 Sandusky, more charges, real bail Snidget 12-07-11 151
   RE: Sandusky, more charges, real ba... Estee 12-07-11 153
 Sandusky posts bail: under house a... Estee 12-08-11 154
 Next up. Estee 12-09-11 155
   RE: Next up. Snidget 12-09-11 156
 Sandusky's plea: not guilty. Estee 12-13-11 157
   RE: Sandusky's plea: not guilty. dabo 12-14-11 158
   Defensive strategy cahaya 12-14-11 159
 Can we get a gag order on the lawye... Snidget 12-15-11 160
   RE: Can we get a gag order on the l... Estee 12-15-11 161
 Bill O'Brien (Patriots) new head co... Estee 01-08-12 162
   RE: Bill O'Brien (Patriots) new hea... AyaK 01-08-12 163
 Paterno dies PepeLePew13 01-22-12 164
   RE: Paterno dies dabo 01-22-12 165
   Partial suicide. Estee 01-22-12 166
       RE: Partial suicide. PepeLePew13 01-22-12 167
           RE: Partial suicide. Snidget 01-22-12 168
               RE: Partial suicide. AyaK 01-23-12 169
                   RE: Partial suicide. Snidget 01-23-12 170
   RE: Paterno dies bondt007 01-24-12 171
 Trial date set for 5/14 Estee 02-10-12 172
   RE: Trial date set for 5/14 cahaya 02-10-12 173
       Victim home delivery. Estee 02-14-12 174
           I'm confused Breezy 02-14-12 175
               RE: I'm confused Estee 02-14-12 176
                   RE: I'm confused Round Robin 02-18-12 177
                       RE: I'm confused agman 02-22-12 178
 Jury selection begins. Estee 06-05-12 179
   RE: Jury selection begins. byoffer 06-06-12 180
 Father kills man sexually abusing h... HobbsofMI 06-12-12 181
   RE: Father kills man sexually abusi... Estee 06-12-12 184
   Update. Estee 06-19-12 190
       RE: Update. Round Robin 06-20-12 191
 Testimony begins. Estee 06-12-12 182
   RE: Testimony begins. Round Robin 06-12-12 183
       RE: Testimony begins. Estee 06-12-12 185
           RE: Testimony begins. Round Robin 06-13-12 186
 Prosecution rests: defense begins. Estee 06-18-12 187
   RE: Prosecution rests: defense beg... Breezy 06-19-12 188
       RE: Prosecution rests: defense beg... HobbsofMI 06-19-12 189
           The defense rest HobbsofMI 06-20-12 192
               RE: The defense rest Round Robin 06-21-12 193
                   RE: The defense rest HobbsofMI 06-21-12 194
 NBC claim for Sandusky not testifyi... Estee 06-21-12 195
   RE: NBC claim for Sandusky not test... Breezy 06-22-12 196
   RE: NBC claim for Sandusky not test... bondt007 06-23-12 202
       RE: NBC claim for Sandusky not test... Estee 06-23-12 203
 Guilty.... PepeLePew13 06-22-12 197
   RE: Guilty.... dabo 06-22-12 198
   RE: Guilty.... HobbsofMI 06-22-12 199
   RE: Guilty.... Estee 06-22-12 200
       RE: Guilty.... Round Robin 06-23-12 201
 Seductive kids? AyaK 08-30-12 205
   RE: Seductive kids? Round Robin 08-31-12 206
       RE: Seductive kids? Snidget 08-31-12 207
       RE: Seductive kids? PepeLePew13 08-31-12 208
 Does The Guardian support Jerry San... AyaK 01-11-13 209
   RE: Does The Guardian support Jerry... Starshine 01-12-13 210
       RE: Does The Guardian support Jerry... AyaK 01-12-13 211

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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-11, 01:40 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
And I agree with you Estee, this story is going to get worse.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-11, 04:24 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Before I read your initial article, I was going through the one linked below. And it made me think about the Catholic Church (or nearly any church, potentially) and its similarities with Penn State. Two monolithic institutions seemingly invulnerable to the mere idea of change, both promising that if you live your life by the rules they set and example they claim to provide, everything will work out. Both of which will do anything to keep that image intact because the appearance is what keeps the money flowing and as soon as a single crack appears in the armor, goodbye to the loyal devotees dropping their funds into your collection basket.

The main difference here may ultimately turn out to be 'The Pope never resigned.' Never considered it either. And couldn't be forced out. But as for covering things up, ignoring it as long as possible, doing anything it took to make sure the money kept coming and the image stayed intact -- identical to the last scream.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7205085/growing-penn-state

Maybe 'image' is the wrong word here. 'Idol' might be better.

Idols fall...

...and then I read the article you linked to. Saw everything I'd been thinking reflected back at me in the words of another.

Is it that transparent? Are we all tapping the same well? Or does the urge to worship virtually always wind up leading to things which don't deserve it?

I don't believe anything can make Paterno resign. I do think he can be forced out. And for knowing what he did, and acting as he did...

What he personally deserves is 'worse'. I just don't know if it's coming.

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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-11, 04:46 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
It seems to be that transparent.

Looks like Paterno will be forced to resign according to new reports.

Also I read a report from some of the mothers, according to them they called the authorities! If the authorities were brought in in 1998, why wasn't this monster stopped?

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-11, 04:55 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-08-11 AT 10:19 PM (EST)

Because JoePa is too powerful and controls everything that moves within the boundaries of PSU. If he didn't authorize so-and-so to speak, they're not going to tell the authorities anything and they'll fudge things or move papers around enough to create doubt.

If somebody farts in the janitor`s closet outside of the dressing room, within fifteen minutes somebody will have filled in JoePa on the details with the decibel level, olfactory ratio, octave, and depth perception, yada yada yada.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-11, 05:15 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Enter Vatican City as s heretic, be victimized, call the police, see how far you get...

How many other things are waiting to come out? Is this where players break ranks and talk about other incidents seen (if there were incidents to see)? What's still under the surface here?

In the college football culture, winners are forgiven all. Penn State is no longer winning.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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11-08-11, 06:41 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I've always admired Joe Paterno and Penn State, but he, his staff and whoever had anything to do with this in the Atheletic department and the administration, as well as those who should have known, should go. And should be prosecuted.

Now, if we can only get the Pope, bishops, and all underlings in the Catholic church to resign and be prosecuted, we might just be making some progress, and can make a charge into the Protestants.

Oh, and the Mormans, can't forget the Mormans.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 07:01 AM (EST)
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7. "Rally at Paterno's house."
To continue our metaphor, you always get a hardcore group of fanatics who don't care who gets hurt as long as they personally get to lord it over everyone else.
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KeithFan 7414 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 10:12 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Wonder what Spidey would have to say.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 11:42 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
She wouldn't have been one of the three hundred on the lawn proving how badly a group can interpret Bon Jovi.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 11:48 AM (EST)
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10. "The slow-out."
Paterno will leave -- after the current season ends. Which means he gets another home game, to hear his supporters chant their idiot sympathy, and to generally be treated like an abused hero with a chance of having any and all detractors removed from the stands, the press room and, based on what people are now starting to wonder about the vanishing of the original prosecutor, possibly existence.

It's been noted that last night, he asked those on his lawn to pray for the victims. Not the alleged victims. Not the possible victims. The victims. Period. Plural.

I wonder if he did the same thing after he let the molester stay on.

I wonder how many times he repeated the act.

Legal is reporting it. Moral is stopping it.

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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 12:19 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: The slow-out."
Announces retirement.

And wishes he had done more? Gee, ya think.

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byoffer 15808 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 01:40 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: The slow-out."
Penn St sits at 8-1 (5-0 in the Big 10) so will be bowl-eligibile. Unless they automatically qualify for a specific bowl, I wonder if the "elective" bowls would want them. Will put the bowls in an interesting position.


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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 01:45 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: The slow-out."
The phrase you might want here generally starts with 'any publicity'... But the flip side of this is that as much as I want Paterno to suffer immediately, long-term, and permanently for this, the current crop of players is innocent until proven guilty. Ban them from the bowls just to hurt JoePope and the collateral damage is nearly all that would be done.

For now, unless/until more evidence comes out, I'd be okay with the team going to a bowl, their coach staying home, and the college's take being donated to an abuse recovery center. Or directly to the victims. As a down payment.

Anyone want to gather on the lawn and chant for that?

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samboohoo 17076 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 12:11 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-09-11 AT 12:11 PM (EST)

"Forget about telling Paterno when to retire. Nobody can tell Paterno anything, because he is Joe Paterno."

There are a lot of things I'd like to tell Joe Paterno.


Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie


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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 01:28 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
What I don't understand if the grad assistant does not beat the livinG *$%*%&$* out of him when he walked into the shower but leaves, calls his dad, then tells Joe Pa the next day, and then stay on staff with him for another 5 years.


GO WINGS! 2008 Stanley Cup Champs!
sig Snidget and by IceCat, and bobble head by Tribephyl

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 01:41 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
{dark}Well, that's how you keep your football scholarship: you can only question a coach's actions to the head coach, and you can only question the head coach to your deity.{/dark}

I'd call him a coward for not acting, but I've been calling him a lot worse over the past few hours. And if you want to make it even worse, imagine you're that kid, helpless, violated, praying against all hope that help will arrive, seeing it walk in -- and turning away from you.

What's worse: just following orders to cause tragedy, or going off in search of a few before considering whether to stop it?

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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
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11-09-11, 02:09 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I guess I'm sympathetic to everyone here except Jerry Sandusky, Joe Paterno, the local authorities and the Penn State board of trustees.

I understand the grad assistant's actions perfectly. He saw a crime being committed and told Paterno. He also told the grand jury about it, when everyone else pled ignorance. But you have to keep in mind what his role was with the team: he was basically a volunteer, a former player one year out of undergrad, hoping to get a paid job as an assistant coach. If he went to the police, his entire future went out the window. He had to depend on Paterno to do the right thing. But that's not in Paterno's playbook.

Everybody who ever played at Penn State respected Jerry Sandusky. There really was only one thing for the kid to do: tell Paterno.

And that's where things go off the track, because all the stories indicate that Paterno told "higher-ups" at Penn State, and the local authorities claim to have bought into that concept. The problem with those stories is that there wasn't anyone higher up at Penn State than JoePa (note that the popular abbreviation of his last name is also the popular abbreviation of the entire state). The idea that the AD is above Paterno and could have reported Sandusky to the police if Paterno didn't want him to and still kept his job? Ridiculous!

Paterno totally dominated the board of trustees as well. Ultimately he made the decision not to report Sandusky. Pretending that anything else was the case is silly.

It's really like Ohio State president Gordon Gee's comment about Jim Tressel -- that he wasn't looking to fire Tressel; he was just hoping that Tressel didn't fire him. But ultimately OSU had to fire Tressel . . . and what Tressel was covering up wasn't even a crime.

I expect that PSU will ultimately be sued for damages in this case AND pay them.

Despite this horrific crime, I expect that the Board of Trustees will allow Paterno to coach this week's home game against Nebraska, and Paterno's retirement/dismissal will then become effective after the game, despite Paterno's stated wish to go out at the end of the year. Thus, be prepared for a JoePa love-in at Happy Valley on Saturday . . . followed about a month later by an indictment.

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11-09-11, 02:26 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
There really was only one thing for the kid to do: tell Paterno.

As opposed to a two-step course of action where #1 was 'Make Sandusky stop by force' and 'force' is anything required? And then you call an authority? Like, say, the police?

I have no sympathy for anyone who, when finding that kind of pain, has a first reaction of 'So how does this affect my career?'

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11-09-11, 04:05 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-09-11 AT 04:11 PM (EST)

The guy was 28 years old and not just one year out of undergrad school. He didn't tell Joe Pa until the next day after he went and called his dad that night for advice.

I'm sorry, you see a kid being abused and you think of your job....no you beat the *(&)(*&()*& out of Jerry as you are pulling him out of the kids (*&(* and call the cops.

How can you go to work with Jerry for the next five years? Sorry but we maybe there is no hope again for humanity.


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11-09-11, 06:41 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-09-11 AT 06:42 PM (EST)

Hobbs, you know more about this than I do, so I looked up the data on the graduate assistant after reading your post.

The graduate assistant (now assistant coach) in question is Mike McQueary (you can imagine what kind of hazing he got with that name!), who was a backup QB at Penn State, graduating in 1998. He grew up in State College, Pennsylvania. He was also, supposedly, friends with Jerry Sandusky's son Jon, who was his teammate in both high school and college.

After graduation, he went to training camp with the Oakland Raiders but was cut, then played in NFL Europe with the Scottish Claymores for the 1999 season. He came back to Penn State and spent three years (2000-2002) as an unpaid graduate assistant with the Nittany Lions. In 2003, Paterno hired him as an administrative assistant, and in 2004, he became receivers coach, eventually adding the recruiting coordinator position as well.

It's nice that so many of you are confident that you would have reacted like a comic-book hero in the circumstances. But I know that I wouldn't have.

I would have been shocked and horrified, but I also would have wondered if I really saw what I thought I saw. I certainly wouldn't have confronted Coach Sandusky under the circumstances. Today, I would have filmed it using a digital camera, so that I could turn the evidence over to the police -- but I would have never tried to break it up. Then, it just becomes my word against his, and I probably lose that battle against this widely-respected coach. Who knows what the boy would have said? Heck, I could be the one headed for jail.

Under the circumstances, McQueary told his dad and had his dad go in with him to see Coach Paterno. You know Jerry Sandusky probably told Paterno that none of this happened and that McQueary was confused about what he saw and reckless to accuse him of something like this. Yet Paterno and the university knew that Sandusky had already been investigated once before for possible child molestation, back in 1997.

The real question was this: did anyone from Penn State take McQueary's claims seriously enough to even investigate this second possible offense by Sandusky? The answer is no, because the university doesn't even know the name of the child that McQueary saw being assaulted, even after McQueary reported it. So how could McQueary have done anything that would have achieved a different result?

Maybe Spider-Man or Batman could have, but that's not living in the real world.

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11-09-11, 07:10 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-11 AT 02:28 PM (EST)

No matter how much I look this over, it keeps coming across as 'We'll never be able to convict him on attempted murder, so the only way to get justice is by letting him kill you.' Maybe some people don't think in terms of heroics, but in this example, going with the legal I Must Gather Evidence To Prove The Case is hard to see as an improvement. Besides, this could be DNA vs. 'but the footage was clearly altered to frame my client'. Which one would you rather leave in the hands of the typical idiot jury? Doesn't matter: they'll acquit on both.

On the other hand, I now have a nice graveyard SNL sketch. 'I'm sorry, but I forget my camera. Can you keep the molestation going until I get back?'

It's an emotional case and therefore an emotional reaction. But I wouldn't be able to stand back and let it keep happening.

The battle cry for the prosecution in this case would have to be 'Change in venue!', wouldn't it? Imagine trying to get a neutral jury in that town.

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11-09-11, 07:17 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I suspect there was that shock, and it is hard to know if one could, in the moment, spring into action.

I also don't know what the workplace environment was like and how that could effect an initial reaction.

I doubt the initial thought was "I could lose my job and career", but more of a "what the heck what should I do".

Sounds like he did try to handle it responsibly and again I don't know how far out of chain of command he was willing or able to go. There could have been "it was reported so drop it, or else" type of pressure afterward.

I do agree that it really looks bad that he stayed there rather than getting a job elsewhere, but I don't know which set of pressures the guy was under and I'd like to think I'd immediately sacrifice everything, sometimes it isn't as easy and shocked inaction is a perfectly normal initial response to something shocking, and we don't know the man's background or how that could have effected reactions both in the moment and later.

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11-10-11, 10:17 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-11 AT 11:36 AM (EST)

Please spare me the comic-book hero stuff. Use your judgment as a human beaning instead of thinking like a lawyer.

He walked in made eye contract with both of them and said he knew when he looked into the kids eyes he was in trouble. Jerry didn't stop and was continuing to rape the kid as he turned and left. McQueary is 6-3 and 220 lbs and there is not threats for his personal safety if he acted.

Yes, I've step in when I've seen things before, yes I do assess the situation for my own personal safety before stepping in or calling the police, and would do it in this case. Why would your own dad say go talk to Joe instead of calling the police? Why would you not follow up when all they did was take his keys to the locker room? Why would you let the next kid and the next kid be raped and scared for life while you let for life go on it's merry way. How could you live with yourself knowing that he was doing this over and over?

If he wanted his "claim" to be taken seriously he should have stopped the rape and thus you have the kid, DNA, etc.

We are not talking about adults but rape and kids.

I've been a part of a gang rape case at college but a kid takes it to a whole new level.

My last question is why didn't he get fired yesterday too?


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11-10-11, 01:21 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I have no problem with what McQueary did - he did the right thing in my mind to discuss it with his father, then they made the decision to go and tell JoePast. He showed concern and made a move to do something about it - this is where JoePast failed because he was the "top dog" while McQueary was just a grad assistant at the time so he didn't have the gravitas that Sandusky had.

Let's say McQueary intervenes and the boy runs off safely. What do you think is going to happen? Sandusky is going to have McQueary railroaded right out of town because he was "well-respected" in the community and on the team at the time. Suppose he also physically intervened between the boy and Sandusky? If Sandusky was careful enough to not leave physical evidence, then McQueary is going to jail for assault on a "well-respected" member of society.

By discussing it with his father and then taking the step to follow the protocol in place, that was the best way McQueary could not only protect himself but also have a trail of paperwork somewhere along the process to show documentation of the assault. The police did their part to undergo an investigation that led to a grand jury and eventually leading to charges placed against Sandusky. What McQueary could have done, I agree, is to follow up on the case and see whether anything more was done with the case, but really, he was low man on the totem pole so he had far more to lose than to gain if he pushed the issue. By contrast, nobody's more powerful than JoePast and if he wanted to find out more about the case or see a certain outcome, he had ways of making things happen. He chose to sweep it under the rug and keep Sandusky around on campus with the full knowledge the latter was being investigated for child molestation.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-11, 01:27 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
If Sandusky was careful enough to not leave physical evidence

From the information that's been released, this was an anal rape in progress where the rapist's response to being found was to keep right on going. Some form of evidence would have been available.

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11-10-11, 02:09 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Note to self.

Upon my next visit to the Great White North, should I happen upon any young skunks being forcibly sodommized by the Canadian Prime Minister or Wayne Gretzky, I will make no attempt to end such criminal behaviour.

Because of Prime Minister Gretzky's unending respect from the community, rather than risk my ability to seek employment or even visit Canada in the future, I will instead give a disapproving nod to the offender, lift my shoulders in a "whatta-ya-gonna-do" shrug to the victim, turn around and go home for the day. The next day I'll call my dad and tell him how bad my vacation is going.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-11, 02:54 PM (EST)
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39. "And to top it off:"
Hockey already had this nightmare in their collective midst. Some of the victims of that one have already come forward to offer advice and assistance to those of the current tragedy.

By the way, that particular piece of human-shaped refuse received a pardon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_James_%28ice_hockey%29

As long as we're at it, let's throw in some extra fun: Sandusky operates a multi-million dollar charity designed to assist at-risk youths. And what does that potentially do? Puts him in contact with potentially thousands of vulnerable kids every year while allowing him to hold an extra element of blackmail over their heads: say anything and the help stops. A never-ending victim supply bringing itself to his doorstep every year.

How much worse would you like this to get?

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11-10-11, 03:52 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-11 AT 04:38 PM (EST)

Pepe....this incident took place in 2002 the police have been doing their investigation for the last two years. 2002 to 2009...how many kids did he do this to in that time span.

McQueary and the rest of them at Penn State knew and said nothing. Jerry was on campus in the weight room last week and still on campus with young kids within the past month. How could you not puke when you saw him with a kid? How could you live with yourself seeing that and knowing what he was doing?

Sorry, but the police should have been called not JoePa a day later (who also knew about the investigation in 1998) and they were not. Again being railroaded right out of town should have been the last thought over the thought of helping that kid and preventing that from happening to any kid after that day. You can make up a lot of if this, then that but it's was right there in front of him. Yes, it would shock the heck out of you but then you run and call daddy....you're 28.

Where is the judgment and thoughts of the kids from any of them?

I hope all those that happen after 2002 sue the pants off of all of them and McQueary's dad.


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11-10-11, 04:33 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
The police should have been called immediately, period. Instead this predator had easy access to who knows how many children. Those poor kids. There are no excuses for allowing that to continue. None.

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11-10-11, 04:42 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I know but if you're McQueary and you're railroaded out of town by the folks there trying to keep you quiet, who's going to believe you if it's your word against the most powerful men at PSU? Where does he go from there? People will say he's bitter and trying to get back at these guys and will ignore McQueary.

McQueary was disgusted enough to talk to his dad about it and then go in person to tell JoePast about it. Beyond that, he was powerless to do anything about it. It's not like he "shrugged his shoulders" as newsomewayne so kindly characterized it.

In your scenario, the police is called. Then what? JoePa will just say to the cops, "whut? nothing to see here, he doesn't know what he's talking about?" You think the police is going to press the case when the kid is no longer there an hour later and it's The Holy Almighty JoePa Who Does Nothing Wrong EVER telling them that McQueary is imagining things? If Sandusky felt comfortable enough to keep going with the kid even with a passerby, it tells you that he's a "made man" in gangster-speak within the football buildings.

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11-10-11, 04:46 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
The local police have never heard of a rape kit?

And what Sandusky's actions tell me about him translates to one word: monster.

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11-10-11, 04:56 PM (EST)
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53. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
JoePa is not there. The cops get there first but even if I'm run out of town I know I did all I could to get that kid and all future kids away from Jerry.

Again, we could play the what if game all you want but the only choice should have been to save the kid and call the cops.


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11-10-11, 08:21 PM (EST)
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61. "Exactly"
If the cops were alerted immediately Sandisgusky would have been arrested, the boy located, evidence collected and possibly that would have ended it.

I cannot get over the gross injustice of this, that this guy was allowed to prey on kids for who knows how long. People knew about it and were around him all the time and didn't stop him. It's beyond horrifying.

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11-10-11, 05:01 PM (EST)
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54. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
And McQueary was forced to keep working there how? If he had felt even a bit of remorse, could he not have at least gotten a job elsewhere and left the whole mess behind? What was he thinking, if he's sticks around maybe he can keep an eye on Sandusky and ask him nicely not to do it again?

Sorry, Pepe, but your argument holds less water than a sieve. I could still work around people who I know have done lots of things I disagree with - drive drunk, fudge on taxes, vote Democrat - but I think I'd have to draw the line at boy-rape.

Even if you thought the best thing you could do was let your boss know, don't you think you might get suspicious when, after a couple days, the police don't show up to hall Sandusky away? That maybe, just maybe, the matter wasn't being handled by your bosses the way it should have been and you should speak to someone else about it?

You say the kid might never be seen again. I'd be willing to bet Estee's car that this child was part of the Second Mile program and that it would not be hard for McQ and the police to go through records and pics until they found him.

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11-10-11, 05:16 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I'm assuming, which can be a bad thing, but that the abuse and control issues in the whole department probably went far beyond just what one guy was doing to get vulnerable kids under his "wing".

It wouldn't surprise me if the lower employees were subject to workplace conditions that made it difficult to "fight the power".

That being said, I would think that calling in the cops when things aren't being handled in house seems very reasonable. However, having heard from enough abuse victims or people out of controlling relationships I can believe that the low level people that tried to get it to stop may not have been seeing what seems clear from the outside.

Put enough threats into place and keep enough control of the situation and you can get people to make decisions they wouldn't in any other situation. I dunno if they "stockholm syndromed" the people, but it is hard to believe that sort of manipulation and control was only used on the targets and not used on everyone that may in anyway find out.

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11-10-11, 08:47 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-11 AT 09:46 PM (EST)


Yeah I see it all the time - I work with a lot of people who are in abusive situations, deal with court situations, do a lot of crisis counseling, run personal development workshops myself, helped two former students write letters for their victim impact statements in the class-action lawsuits involving sex abuse at Jericho Hill School for the Deaf and the Amherst School for the Deaf, and other situations, so don't think that I'm unsympathetic in any way at all and I share everyone's outrage over the PSU situation.

But.

I also have seen all kinds of politics going on and I also know that if it was a situation where it was some strange person or some lower level person doing this, I'd have no hesitation whatsoever in stepping in and dealing with the situation. If it was the coordinator of my program doing this, I'd knock him right onto his ass and drag him away by the nuts. But if it was, let's say, my boss (one of the most senior deans and a very powerful guy) in this situation, I would have to take a moment to figure out how to handle this and my first immediate reaction would be to talk to my coordinator about what to do - the boss has that kind of gravitas within the college that when he speaks, everyone stops what they're doing. I'd have handled it differently from McQueary, no doubt, but considering who it is, my first step likely would be to take a video with my phone's camera and to ensure there is a trail of evidence of my actions recorded with various people and yes, with the police, so I don't get thrown into jail and/or fired for daring to go up against the big guy (Shoving him away from the kid? I'd be charged with assault when the cops show up and they'd believe him over me any time). When you've seen the situations that I've seen and the result of court cases involving some of my learners/clients, you'd learn to dot all the i's and cross the t's before jumping into anything like that.

I would be willing to bet that if McQueary saw some strange guy he didn't know doing this, he'd step in immediately and take the guy on directly. But it's Sandisgusky (thanks Moonie for that name), who is JoePast's right hand man and was the heir apparent to the head job until his retirement. Not just any chump. If PSU is anything at all like the typical campus (I work on a college campus), it'd take 15 minutes for the campus security to arrive and longer for the real cops to show up. Sandisgusky would have been out of there by then and the kid gone as well.

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11-10-11, 11:47 PM (EST)
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67. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Pepe but you have the time line messed up so it don't work.

Jerry was forced to retire in 1999 so he was just an "old" coach who had an office there that McQueary had, he was no longer the heir apparent in 2002. IMHO they paid Jerry off with an retirement and now I think they paid of McQeary with a paid job on the staff thus why he would stick around and put up with Jerry being there.

Plus the tesimony was that Jerry didn't stop raping the kid when he knew he was spotted by McQueary. He's 28 vs. a 57 year old, 5' 6" and 220 still in playing shape. It would not take much to hold Jerry there until the cops came IMHO.


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11-11-11, 11:46 AM (EST)
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72. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I understand the timeline perfectly. Jerry is a 'protected' guy within the football buildings - there's a network of some degree where certain higher ups are protecting him despite the investigation in progress since 1998. He's got an office and full access to the facilities even though he was 'retired' as of 1999. I added in the heir-apparent part to show how he was viewed as respected within the community - did most people within the football program even know that Jerry had already been under investigation at the time in 2002?

And you're missing my point about McQueary being 28 and bigger than a 57 year old Jerry. It has all about who has the so-called power and leverage within the program. In my example in the post above, I'm bigger than both my coordinator and my boss, but the boss is someone I won't immediately jump on because of the potential ramifications out there in the college.

Let's say McQueary *does* jump on Jerry there in the shower to break up the assault. Then what? It's 2002, so I'd say the odds are decent that an unpaid grad student like him didn't have a cellphone then. How does he call police if he's sitting on top of Jerry? Locker rooms don't have phones. The locker room was likely empty with no other people around besides McQueary, or he'd probably have been more emboldened to bring someone in to deal with the situation on the spot.

You're responding to this case in an emotional manner and I'm looking at this from the voice of experience in being practical. I need to think of what steps would need to be taken to better guarantee that someone like Jerry is stopped instead of being put into a bad situation myself and consequently I'm screwed while Jerry continues to run amok. How do I make sure that Jerry is the one that gets screwed by the legal system instead of me? There's a tacit approval of what Jerry is doing (by JoePast's and Curley's failure to follow up on the allegations), so Jerry has the leverage of power here. If I am found holding a naked Jerry in the shower with the kid long gone when the police comes, what do you think is going to happen? Think about it. We live in a litigious society where frequently the defender has the tables turned around on him - and for chrissakes, we found out that two cops let a naked, crying teenage boy go back to Jeffrey Dahmer! Just to name one example...

It's nice to see that you have complete confidence in the police to take care of the situation assuming that McQueary promptly calls them. Frankly, I don't.

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11-11-11, 03:12 PM (EST)
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73. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Look, I really do understand what you're saying. McQueary may have thought that he had no recourse. It is all rational the way you put it. But that's exactly how sexual harassment at the workplace is allowed, too. Should no one ever do anything about that?

If you walk in on someone getting raped, you interrupt the rape. Period. You don't justify it. You don't debate yourself over it. You don't wonder what anyone else is going to do or say. You do what you need to do get that penis out of the victim's body. Period.

If it is three or four guys on one victim, or one armed perpetrator, you wait for the victim to be free (if they are allowed to live) and you take them to the police. Between you and the victim, it is a substantiated report. Call the FBI if you don't trust the local police. Do something to stop that rape and prevent future rapes.

Letting someone get raped is immoral, unprofessional, wicked and should be punishable by jail time. I'm tired of the excuses. McQueary saw a young boy being raped, he had the pyhsical capabiloity of stopping it, the boy would not have just run off naked, so there would have been two people telling the police why Sandusky is lying naked and unconscious in a shower. There is no acceptable excuse - none - for seeing someone getting raped and not doing the right thing.

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11-11-11, 04:05 PM (EST)
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74. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
+1,000%
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11-11-11, 04:50 PM (EST)
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75. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I get the sentiment...

I just wonder if the guy might be an adult survivor of molestation (or other type of trama). Just because that could cause that freeze reaction and "just get out of here" response once he could move again.

It isn't that unlikely and just the initial response sounds more like that then a guy cold and calculating enough in the moment to go "what will this do to my career" while watching a molestation.

I could be wrong and he could be that soulless, but I do wonder if he's got a history that effects responses even well into adulthood. Especially with being able to tolerate continuing to work there.

Was listing to Dr. Drew on HLN and that type of freeze response is really common in kids with some trauma or neglect and is one of the the things effective pedophiles would test for when screening which of the boys at, let say a charity like the one in this story, to abuse.

Now not everyone will freeze, even with survivors, but I'm just aware enough of that to give the guy that benefit of the doubt until I get real evidence he's just another psychopath that didn't care and only tried to cover his own legal responsibilities.

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11-11-11, 05:10 PM (EST)
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77. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I dearly hope you and/or the doctor didn't just give his inevitable PR agent an excuse.
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11-11-11, 05:50 PM (EST)
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80. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I'm just loathe to go to must be completely evil to react that way or stay in a situation.

Especially since I haven't had any opportunity to actually see the guy. While I'm pretty cynical, I also know "inappropriate responses" can come from history.

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11-11-11, 06:12 PM (EST)
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83. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Well the Dr. was talking mostly about what they knew from the reports about how Sandusky would have selected kids from that charity and why they would be "good prey".

I don't think that tells predators much they don't already know, nor does the knowledge that certain types of trauma causes problems. Dr. Drew has seen that same freeze response that abused kids have continue long into adulthood depending on the trauma, how it hit, and what, if any, treatment a person has gotten.

What I don't know is what kinds of people predators gather around as the other adults to look the other way. Sounds like he did have "fellow predators" but you don't want too many of those, I'd think you'd need a fair number of clueless or likely to go into denial and stay quiet types.

Sure some people can stay quiet because the goodies they get are more important than the damage to someone else that may be going around. I just think statistically there are a lot more damaged to the point they won't talk (or won't keep pushing if they get any blow back) types than so narcissistic or lacking empathy they can't care about anyone types.

Now if the dude gets interviewed I think it will be a lot clearer if we are talking someone who is easy to cow/naive vs has some history that made him freeze, or just plain evil.

I just don't know enough at this point to make the determination of his motive in the shower room. I'm pretty clear that after the fact that he was a "keep it in house" type for whatever reason probably did make him much more likely to get a job long term in the organization than someone else who might have been more likely to go to the cops, but how much was his diabolical plan and how much was the way the system works is up for debate, IMO.

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11-11-11, 05:17 PM (EST)
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78. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
If I had to guess, I would guess that McQueary was not a victim himself of some prior abuse from somewhere. Why would he continue to work in the vicinity of a child molestor if he had been molested himself as a child? Many victims try as best they can to avoid traumatizing locations and/or people.

Instead, I think that he and everyone else was aware that Sandusky had this problem and that everyone at State College and perhaps even within the local police department would turn a blind eye towards allegations. Which they apparently already did once circa 1998.

Suicide watch should be put on Sandusky, btw.

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11-11-11, 05:20 PM (EST)
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79. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
*nods* I currently have no problems with watching Sandusky kill himself.

I don't feel it's likely, though -- arguably too much ego not to think he can get out of this.

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11-11-11, 05:56 PM (EST)
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81. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-11-11 AT 06:16 PM (EST)

I think it really depends on which reaction they have and what healing they have done.

A lot of people disassociate when stuff happens and the denial from that can be pretty strong.

If people avoided further trauma at all costs you wouldn't see victims become predators or abused people going from one abusive relationship to the next.

Now he could just be yet another sociopath/psychopath, but I'm not willing to go there, yet.

There is a reason predators go to charities where you have kids with traumatic histories, and that isn't because they are predominately scream loudly and run like heck the first time anyone does something a little untoward. Now they do sort through them to find the ones with the reactions that make them easier to abuse again, but I don't think it is true everyone becomes immediately and loudly adverse to bad things, and normal people with good histories just shrug and let it happen.

ETA: At least at this point I'm more likely to put my rage on Sandusky and the people that got the reports and covered it up more than the one guy that at least did the legal minimum and spoke up, even if it wasn't as effective as other actions may have been.

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11-10-11, 05:19 PM (EST)
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57. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I'd be willing to bet Estee's car

*puts off all repairs*

*locates nearest sledgehammer*

*not necessarily for the car*

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11-11-11, 02:04 AM (EST)
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69. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I'd be willing to bet Estee's car that this child was part of the Second Mile program and that it would not be hard for McQ and the police to go through records and pics until they found him.

If you read the grand jury report, although they did not identify the victims, there are enough contextual clues to identify some of them with a little investigative and research work. Some of these kids appear in publications with photos where public identification (probably already known to the grand jury) shouldn't be too difficult.

Some of these kids are now adults, so it is probably only a matter of time before one or more of them go public. At the least, one or more of them will appear in court, and thus in the public eye.

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11-10-11, 11:38 PM (EST)
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66. "Was his paid job a bribe?"
Looking back at things and thanks for the time line on McQueary AyaK....

The indecent took place in 2002 and he was hired in to a paid position in 2003.

Something looks very fishy to me right now.


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11-09-11, 04:16 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
No way!!! That graduate looked the boy in the eye and walked away! He was an adult, he should have acted like one.

Spainer will be gone at end of day.

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11-10-11, 10:53 AM (EST)
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29. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Isn't he still on staff at PSU? If so, I'm not sure why he isn't gone as well.

I'm with everyone else--he wasn't a scared kid. He was an adult who should have acted when he viewed the assault.

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11-09-11, 11:33 PM (EST)
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24. "Forced out ... NOW"
LAST EDITED ON 11-09-11 AT 11:34 PM (EST)

The board of trustees met tonight and have decided that JoePast is out as coach, effective immediately. Tom Bradley (defensive coordinator) takes over for JoePast as coach.

Spanier also has officially resigned as PSU Prez.

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11-10-11, 01:29 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: Forced out ... NOW"
Sounds right to me...


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11-10-11, 06:31 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Forced out ... NOW"
This is turning into the scandal version of Contagion: anyone who comes into contact with it dies. With any luck, the NCAA itself was in on the coverup and we'll lose the whole organization in one spectacular bodyfall,

I'm now waiting for someone to put a cross on JoePope's lawn. With an effigy of him on it. Because clearly the infidels have destroyed the Last Holy Coach In America, and that's what this was about the whole time.

The university had better find a new president who can beat the bushes for alumni donations. They'll need something to pay the lawsuits with.

Which brings up the question of how many hits it would take to wipe out the whole institution...

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11-10-11, 11:15 AM (EST)
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30. "RE: Forced out ... NOW"
The university had better find a new president who can beat the bushes for alumni donations. They'll need something to pay the lawsuits with.

About the money. Lots and lots of it. Plenty there to satisfy any tort lawsuits.

And when comparing revenue to total expenses, Penn State football's profit of $53.2 million was second only to the University of Texas' total of $71.2 million.

Penn State reported an additional $24.1 million in athletic revenue not specifically assigned to one team or sport. Much of that is in general merchandise sales and sponsorships, and much of that revenue was driven by the popularity of football, said Ganis.

That money is more at risk in the near term than the school's long-term contracts for television coverage, its membership in the Big 10 Conference and the like.

Ganis said perhaps the most significant near-term dollar risk for Penn State is the damage the scandal -- which cost Hall of Fame coach Joe Paterno his job -- could do to fundraising, which is not included in the reported athletic department revenue.

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11-10-11, 10:32 AM (EST)
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28. "It was only a small riot."
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7214792/students-react-firing-penn-state-nittany-lions-coach-joe-paterno

And now to further show their support, they'll go out and molest some children themselves just to show everyone how trivial the act really is.

Were they acting by the example he claimed to set last night? Or the one he actually did?

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11-10-11, 12:48 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: It was only a small riot."
This whole thing disgusts me.

We are doomed.

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11-10-11, 12:51 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: It was only a small riot."
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-11 AT 01:01 PM (EST)

Maybe they should make this grand jury report (23 pages .pdf, warning: graphic sexual descriptions) required reading in Penn State's COMM 497G Joe Paterno: Communications and the Media course.

Eight victims known and who knows how many unknown.

(eta) It could be worse.

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11-10-11, 01:27 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: It was only a small riot."
These are students... in the University? If so, the bar is set pretty low these days, yes?


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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-11, 01:31 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: It was only a small riot."
Looks like mostly students with perhaps a few non-college locals and alumni mixed in. Nothing about faculty, arguably because any of them bold/insane enough to be part of this anti-sense rally could be fired. It would be hard (but not impossible) to expel students involved in the violent parts of this. University employees would be automatic.

The bar has always been this low. We just seldom get the chance to see where it rests.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-11, 02:43 PM (EST)
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38. "McQueary currently still employed."
As per the word of the new head coach.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7215664/penn-state-nittany-lions-mike-mcqueary-coach-weekend

Meet the new boss...

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-11, 03:12 PM (EST)
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40. "So he's the half-man!"
Warning: non-PG13 language ahead.

http://tinyurl.com/readthenewsfirst

But to his credit, at least he did something most aren't capable of: admitted he'd been stupid.

Even so -- listen carefully and you'll hear the echoes of Charlie Sheen laughing...

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11-10-11, 04:18 PM (EST)
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42. "Newest rumor:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-11 AT 04:32 PM (EST)

Sandusky was pimping out boys from Second Mile to rich Penn St donors. This was the real reason why he was forced out and offered a retirement as a cover up back in 1999.

Edit: I didn't see cahaya's edit on that.


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11-10-11, 04:40 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Newest rumor:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-11 AT 04:40 PM (EST)

Currently, that's considered a rumor with some substance behind it, even by the admission of the guy who first publicly suggested it. But he's also the same guy that blew the cover off of this story some months back before it became big news, so it's a potentially credible rumor.

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11-10-11, 04:44 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: Newest rumor:"
I passed the rumor on to a circlemate in hopes of lessening the pain by sharing it out (which never works) and got a grim response of "One sales receipt and the entire thing will collapse into a black hole."

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11-10-11, 04:27 PM (EST)
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43. "Contrast McQueary with these kids"
On Friday, November 4th, an unknown assailant aggressively grabbed a 12-year-old female student outside of a bathroom at George Washington Carver Middle School, while she was waiting for a classmate -- in broad daylight.

The man "forcefully pull her while making a sexual remark," states the LAPD. The young girl fell to the ground and began screaming as the attacker dragged her approximately 15 feet from where he had initially approached her.

The classmate she was waiting for, along with two additional 7th grade male students, ran towards the attacker and joined the struggle. According to the LAPD, the girl's peers demanded that the man release her.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/george-washington-carver-_n_1084338.html

A Slice of Manga

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11-10-11, 04:37 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: Contrast McQueary with these kids"
It's a good thing the assailant wasn't a principal. Those boys might be in danger of never getting into another school after getting kicked out of this one.


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11-10-11, 04:29 PM (EST)
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44. "Ashton Kutcher weighs in"
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/9334/how-the-penn-state-scandal-helped-ashton-kutcher-learn-basic-internet-skills

A Slice of Manga

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-11, 04:33 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: Ashton Kutcher weighs in"
See post #40 -- but I shortened the URL, so no fault.

Classic case of 'Read beyond the headline, genius.'

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11-10-11, 04:54 PM (EST)
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52. "Baord says McQueary will not be coaching on Sat."
That just broke over the radio.


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11-11-11, 11:00 AM (EST)
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70. "RE: Baord says McQueary will not be coaching on Sat."
bc of threats against him....he's still working there? He must have something on all them like...they told me NOT to go to the police
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11-10-11, 05:17 PM (EST)
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56. "Child Abuse Laws"
According to what I've found at a couple of websites regarding state statutes, in most states a witness to child abuse is obligated by law to report it. I have been looking specifically for PA statutes whenever I get a chance because I find it hard to believe anyone could walk away from seeing something like that and not report it to the authorities. Especially at a school. Gah.
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11-10-11, 08:58 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: Child Abuse Laws"
Don't remember where I saw it, but in some states, PA is one of them, you only are required to report it up the chain of command, but at some level of the chain that person is required to report it to the cops. (so certain job classifications have to report, people below that have to report it to those people)

Some states have anyone that works at a _______ in any job title has to report. Not sure how many have gone to all people, from a how many neighbors on the block would you have to prosecute and will people report so many things you don't catch the really bad ones.

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11-11-11, 11:10 AM (EST)
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71. "RE: Child Abuse Laws"
PA people employed in schools, etc. with kids have to report it to supervisor. There's soonal to be a bill in the Pa House to make it law that they have to report to Dept. of Welfare/Police.

Also, PSU may be in violation of Jeanne Clery Disclosure of Campus Security Policy and Campus Crime Statistics Act (1990 federal statute named for female student raped and killed at a Lehigh University in 1986) Dept. of Education is investigating.

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07-15-12, 09:23 PM (EST)
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204. "The Freeh Report"
left no stone unturned. You called it. Fines fines and more fines. Good. Who's rallying at JoePa's house now?

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11-11-11, 05:02 PM (EST)
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76. "RE: Child Abuse Laws"
When I was in FL & taught Child Care Classes to staff, the law was clear. You could tell your boss but that never relieved you of the responsibility of reporting it to the police. If the boss didn't call the police, the law required that you call.
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11-11-11, 06:26 PM (EST)
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85. "RE: Child Abuse Laws"
Each state has different laws on reporting.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jQ15tKp3ow5hLmMUXuctwqnUj6_A?docId=e9771af8da914c748ac0646f12245432

Looks like PA is looking to make the law stricter, close the loopholes and make it more like what the law was in FL.

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11-10-11, 05:24 PM (EST)
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58. "Missing D.A."
I'm hearing that the D.A. who investigated this story disappeared several years ago. ::boggle::
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11-10-11, 05:30 PM (EST)
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59. "RE: Missing D.A."
LAST EDITED ON 11-10-11 AT 05:30 PM (EST)

Here is a link

DA declared dead this year, missing since 2005

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11-10-11, 08:50 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: Missing D.A."
Like I was saying above... JoePast knows everything that goes on within campus. Not saying he or anyone close to him would do or did anything like this, but it wouldn't surprise me one tiny bit if news come out at some point that "someone" arranged for Gricar to disappear.
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11-10-11, 09:00 PM (EST)
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65. "RE: Missing D.A."
Especially with the rumors that there may be a bigger criminal conspiracy to traffic in boys. Anytime you start getting something like that networked the more likely, IMO, there is for someone to decide they need to disappear someone to protect themselves/their network.
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11-11-11, 01:54 AM (EST)
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68. "RE: Missing D.A."
It makes you wonder who could be in that network, if it exists. The rumors mentioned rich alumni members, which could mean some well-known people at least in business circles, possibly political circles, heck even legal circles. People with a lot of money and power to lose. Bumping off a busybody who knows too much might be seen as an unpleasant, but necessary, course of action to maintain their silence. Dead men tell no tales.
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11-10-11, 05:30 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: Missing D.A."
2005.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/sandusky-investigator-center-mystery/story?id=14905668

Ann Rule is drooling.

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11-11-11, 06:06 PM (EST)
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82. "McQueary now on adminstrative leave."
But if you want to make yourself ill, read down to "horsing around".

http://tinyurl.com/6vfu2ln

Pity about the cinderblock pieces through his window.

Pity they didn't land on his testicles.

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11-11-11, 06:21 PM (EST)
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84. "RE: McQueary now on adminstrative leave."
I dunno if I take Paterno's word for what was reported to him vs what info he was really given.

That being said, I wouldn't be shocked if he wasn't as blunt as he was in the grand jury testimony where the people asking questions are demanding the truth rather than someone that may be coming from a how do we make sure this never sees the light of day mode.

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11-11-11, 06:52 PM (EST)
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86. "RE: McQueary now on adminstrative leave."
I dunno if I take Paterno's word for what was reported to him vs what info he was really given.

I sure don't. It's just the possible use of "horsing around" to describe the events that makes me want to install him as the official tackle dummy of Linebacker U.

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11-12-11, 01:06 PM (EST)
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87. "On game day..."
...I hope everyone remembers the team was nowhere near college eligible when the horror was buried, They were not there. They did not know. They couldn't have done anything because they did not exist as student-athletes on anything over the Pop Warner level.

It's a home game. I doubt there's going to be much booing. But for the players, there shouldn't be any.

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11-12-11, 05:32 PM (EST)
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88. "An administrative pattern forms."
1. Set official policy.
2. Ignore anyone who's ignoring the policy.
3. Figure that if you just keep winning, no one will care...

http://tinyurl.com/6ppcpjg

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11-13-11, 11:20 AM (EST)
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89. "McQueary may be fireproof."
Pennsylvania whistleblower laws.

Feel free to laugh.

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11-13-11, 01:14 PM (EST)
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91. "RE: McQueary may be fireproof."
I'm still trying to figure out why in all this the guy blowing the whistle seems to get more hate than Sandusky or the people with the power to cover it up.

Could he have done more, quite probably, would his voice alone with all the cover machinery in place gotten a prosecution years earlier, I'm doubtful.

Some of his latest behavior makes me not very supportive of him (the double fisting alcohol comment to the players--that is inappropriate, http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/11/mike-mcqueary-protective-custody-double-fisting/#.Tr_6m-DZJ0I), but I still feel that more of my rage should be directed elsewhere.

Heard some interviews with Sandusky's co-authors and friends and seems all anyone can say is what a wonderful human being he was, so kind and giving and just amazing. *blarf* Somehow I fear he's still going to come off smelling like a rose while anyone that spoke up against him is going to be tarred forever.


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11-13-11, 01:28 PM (EST)
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92. "RE: McQueary may be fireproof."
None of my feelings regarding McPassBuck have changed -- but I don't think you have to worry about Sandusky finding total acquital in the court of public opinion. He might be safer at home than anywhere else -- but 'anywhere else' is extremely pissed off.

The mystery of the morning is his bail amount: $100,000. It's agreed that it should have been a lot higher. By nearly everyone who isn't in that part of PA. But since it's that judge's opinion which counts... He is being watched by the police, for whatever that's worth. How many years too late?

Oh, and just for the fun of it: now that the President has expressed outrage over what happened, which GOP candidate and/or pundit will adopt the opposite position? Place your bets!

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11-13-11, 01:38 PM (EST)
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93. "RE: McQueary may be fireproof."
My only conspiracy theory on that was they looked the cost of keeping him away from the general population given how long it will take to get this thing to trial and that didn't fit with required budget cuts.

Wouldn't shock me if he dies of old age before this thing goes to trial.

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11-14-11, 08:33 PM (EST)
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97. "Conspiracy on Bail"
I didn't even think it would be this.
Judge is a volunteer at Second Mile?!?

If true, that doesn't seem kosher.

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11-13-11, 12:40 PM (EST)
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90. "Paterno's Medal Of Freedom revoked."
Oh, and as long as I'm posting... (Just to collect the nightmare into a single scream for a few seconds.)

The FBI will get involved because Sandusky reportedly took one of the kids across state lines (to the Alamodome). This includes investigation the accusations that children were being sold.

The allegations now date back 10 1994, with that victim having tried to commit suicide.

And I had the anti-joy of listening to Penn State defenders on radio call-in shows today. They did not seem to be trolling. They sounded very serious. And anyone accusing JoePope, the school, anything at all, is acting on no evidence whatsoever and should be censored immediately and permanently.

We have yet to sight the bottom of 'worse'. I'm beginning to wonder if there is one.


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11-14-11, 09:42 AM (EST)
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94. "RE: Paterno's Medal Of Freedom revoked."
In a sense, I can almost understand some of the fans' reactions. I'm sure there has to be a deep, deep sense of denial that any of this could be true about their beloved JoePa. And that whatever the truth is about Joe, his treatment (firing, et.al.) is grossly unjustified. And I'm certain that they (at least, most) are just as horrified of the child rapes as the rest of us. It's the connection to Paterno that kills them. To give it another school's perspective, it would be how must of us would feel if it were discovered that Holly Warlick and Mickie DeMoss were running a dog fighting ring in Coch Pat Summitt's backyard while she watched from her kitchen window. It would crush our views and expectations of Pat. Reactions would be off the charts and unpredictable.

Now, to say I understand is not to say I agree or excuse their reaction. Cooler heads would dictate that these feelings are best left unsaid or in private with other until they can come to grips with the reality of the situation. I would hope that in time many of these fans and students would come to a better understanding of the events and regret their initial actions.

On the flip side to the fans reaction, I am glad to say that I've not heard one talking head on TV or radio, local or national, offer up the same excuses and defenses of JoePa as his fans have.


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11-14-11, 05:24 PM (EST)
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95. "disturbing? yes"
LAST EDITED ON 11-14-11 AT 05:24 PM (EST)

Jerry Sandusky Interview: Ex-Penn State Coach Talks About Children To NBC In 1987

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/14/jerry-sandusky-interview-nbc-penn-state-kids-1987_n_1092148.html?ref=sports&icid=maing-grid7

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11-14-11, 06:56 PM (EST)
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96. "Still more fallout."
The CEO of Sandusky's charity has quit.

Paterno's name has been removed from the Big 10 trophy.

And we'll have the mother of a victim on GMA this Friday -- which means this nightmare is about to get a second face.

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11-14-11, 08:42 PM (EST)
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98. "Sandusky's defense."
Interviewed by Bob Costas.

Says he was just horsing around in the shower.

No sexual contact whatsoever.

Horsing around in the shower.

Which he now sees was wrong.

The interview will play tonight on NBC: 10 p.m. EST.

I will not be watching.

http://tinyurl.com/8x5rjw5

NBC just proved itself worse than FOX.


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11-14-11, 08:47 PM (EST)
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99. "RE: Sandusky's defense."
Why does that sound like it is coming from the Michael Jackson defense playbook?
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11-14-11, 08:55 PM (EST)
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100. "RE: Sandusky's defense."
Maybe he needs a doctor.

I can recommend one.

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11-15-11, 09:26 AM (EST)
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101. "RE: Sandusky's defense."
<i>“I am innocent of those charges,” Sandusky said. “… I could say that I have done some of those things. I have horsed around with kids. I have showered after workouts. I have hugged them, and I have touched their legs without intent of sexual contact.”</i>

Uh yeah, that wasn't their leg you were touching. Disgusting.

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11-15-11, 04:12 PM (EST)
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106. "RE: Sandusky's defense."
Listening to the interview, it is without a doubt the creepiest thing I've ever heard.
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11-15-11, 04:39 PM (EST)
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107. "RE: Sandusky's defense."
There's a lot of reasons I didn't watch last night, but high on the list was not wanting to lie awake for hours considering why a real-life Dexter Morgan might be the greatest thing to hit humanity in the last hundred years.

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11-15-11, 05:34 PM (EST)
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110. "RE: Sandusky's defense."
I don't think Sandusky did himself any good talking to Costas, just digging himself in deeper. Feel kind of sorry for Costas, but he did a good job under difficult circumstances.
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11-15-11, 09:51 AM (EST)
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102. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Somewhere, Geg is smiling.

Probably while standing over a BBQ on JoePa's front lawn.

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11-15-11, 12:03 PM (EST)
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103. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Now you're just being silly. She couldn't possibly be done marinating him yet.
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11-15-11, 12:34 PM (EST)
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104. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Funny, but I thought about Geg on this one also.


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11-15-11, 04:51 PM (EST)
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108. "Speak of the Devil"
Here's an oldie but goodie.

http://tinyurl.com/6-year-old-thread



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11-15-11, 05:08 PM (EST)
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109. "Ahem."
"Speak of the Devil"

Bachmann campaign commentary goes in the appropriate thread.

So he has a history of not caring. Not surprised.

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11-15-11, 02:36 PM (EST)
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105. "Sandusky's lawyer"
http://gawker.com/5859512/jerry-sandusky-is-not-a-pedophile-according-to-jerry-sandusky

I know this is gawker, but apparently the lawyer likes his girls/wives a bit on the young side as well.

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11-16-11, 08:41 AM (EST)
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111. "McQueary's email"
Saw this on Yahoo sports this morning:

The Nov. 8 email from McQueary to a friend, made available to The Associated Press, said: “I did stop it, not physically … but made sure it was stopped when I left that locker room … I did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police …. no one can imagine my thoughts or wants to be in my shoes for those 30-45 seconds … trust me.

McQuery told a friend via email that he felt he was “getting hammered for handling this the right way … or what I thought at the time was right … I had to make tough impacting quick decisions.”

The grand jury report issued Nov. 5, the day Sandusky was charged with 40 criminal counts for alleged sexual abuse against eight boys over 15 years, goes into considerable detail about the March 2002 incident. McQueary was putting sneakers into his locker late on a Friday night when, the jury said, he saw Sandusky having sex with a young boy.

He left, “distraught,” and contacted his father and then head coach Joe Paterno, jurors said. McQueary later met with athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz to describe what he had seen, the grand jury said.

If this is true then how badly did the police mishandle the situation?

2002 IceCat Originals, Inc. All rights reserved.

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11-16-11, 08:54 AM (EST)
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112. "In one word:"
Spin.

And in a pair: too late.

I believe nothing from him without the paperwork to back it up.

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11-16-11, 10:05 AM (EST)
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113. "RE: McQueary's email"
When he said police did he mean the college police/security?
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11-16-11, 11:12 AM (EST)
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114. "RE: McQueary's email"
I think he meant he wrote about it in a fan letter to Sting.


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11-16-11, 02:56 PM (EST)
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115. "RE: McQueary's email"
Basically it means the institution covered the institution's ass and McQueary gets trashed for trying to do the right thing no matter how he tried to do it. How dare a youngster tattle on an older more influential better connected authority figure. Yeah, that sends the right message.

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11-16-11, 03:57 PM (EST)
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116. "RE: McQueary's email"
I have no trouble believing the institution part, but McQueary will have a hard time convincing me he didn't write that email with the intent of having his friend leak it.

Everything about it feels like a publicity save. Too general, far too lacking in specifics, nothing he has to testify to immediate, and way too little too late.

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11-16-11, 04:00 PM (EST)
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117. "RE: McQueary's email"
My question is which is the real story? His grand jury testimony or the email.

If it's the email then didn't he commit perjury?


GO WINGS! 2008 Stanley Cup Champs!
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11-16-11, 04:10 PM (EST)
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118. "RE: McQueary's email"
It's not as if he came across as being outstandingly intelligent before this.
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11-16-11, 04:56 PM (EST)
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124. "RE: McQueary's email"
No perjury. Campus police issued a statement that there is no record of McQueary reporting to them. People can say whatever they want in e-mails even when no record has been kept about it.
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11-16-11, 05:01 PM (EST)
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125. "RE: McQueary's email"
And then the problem becomes the campus police having cause to cover their own rears so they can look better in this mess: how can we be expected to do something about a situation we were never told existed?

This nightmare is going to give a few JFK conspirists a new hobby.

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11-16-11, 05:07 PM (EST)
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126. "RE: McQueary's email"
I don't think they will have any trouble proving that the institution covered the institution's ass, there obviously was a conspiracy so no real need to go overboard. How far it went and who all were involved, there's a little room for theorizing about that.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45321304/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

"Absolutely not," State College Police Chief Tom King told NBC News when asked if McQueary had ever come to them with allegations concerning Sandusky, a former defensive coordinator for the Penn State football team.

"We don't have any records of him coming to us," King said.

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11-16-11, 04:14 PM (EST)
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119. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Morbid Thought of the Day: I wonder who (besides the DA) will end up dead, by others or by self, when all is said and done…

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11-16-11, 04:19 PM (EST)
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120. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Uh Oh, I agree with your morbid thought. That can't be good news.
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11-16-11, 04:46 PM (EST)
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123. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I freely admit having made a brief attempt at rewriting Mrs. Robinson to have a nation turn its lonely eyes to Jack Ruby.

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11-16-11, 04:21 PM (EST)
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121. "New Conspiracy"
So, just part of his routine estate planning, or

Did he sell the house to his wife for $1 because he knew this was coming down for quite some time and he's protecting himself from likely civil suits.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Paterno-Handed-House-Over-to-Wife-for-1-Months-Ago-133955308.html

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11-16-11, 04:39 PM (EST)
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122. "RE: New Conspiracy"
Any bets on whether his very substantial pension is about to left to charity?
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11-17-11, 04:12 PM (EST)
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129. "RE: New Conspiracy"
heh, Frolik was my Tax Professor

also, in PA, assets held jtly btw h/w are not subject to judgment unless Mrs. JoePa was in on the conspiracy too?!?

I guess JoePa owned the house by himself before?

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11-17-11, 02:51 PM (EST)
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127. "Should PEnn State get the death penalty?"
It isn't the most important question, but since this is a sports forum . . .

Clay Travis at Outkick the Coverage thinks it should, and I agree with him.

http://outkickthecoverage.com/ncaa-has-authority-to-give-penn-state-death-penalty.php

A Slice of Manga

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11-17-11, 03:33 PM (EST)
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128. "RE: Should PEnn State get the death penalty?"
My major problem with the death penalty is what it does to the students who played no part in this. (Some of them were still in diapers when the first allegations were made.) As such, I would want the punishment to include get-out-of-hell-free cards for the athletes: transfer to the college of your choice without losing a year of eligibility and Penn State has to keep paying your tuition.

After that, go for it.

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11-17-11, 04:26 PM (EST)
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130. "RE: Should PEnn State get the death penalty?"
That would be my issue, how to protect the athletes who had nothing to do with it and shouldn't have their college education and training for potential athletic career derailed from something that is no fault of their own.

I agree that those protections should be in place if they make Penn stop the whole program.

I could see some sort of lesser "death" of a NCAA take full oversight of the program until Penn can get the whole thing overhauled.

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11-17-11, 05:27 PM (EST)
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131. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Two points gathered from a brief listen to a talk radio discussion of this:

A retired police offer wanted to point out a simple fact: the lack of a report doesn't mean no one want to the police. It just means no report can be found.

And the media has had psychiatrists listening to the Sandusky interview. The opinion I heard is that at least some of them feel he was actively enjoying it.

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11-17-11, 05:35 PM (EST)
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132. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I heard one analysis of it and a lot of the interview seemed to consist of every tell that someone is lying/covering something up in the book.

I wouldn't be surprised if he believed he pulled the wool over everyone's eyes and that interview will make everything all go away.

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11-17-11, 05:48 PM (EST)
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133. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Historical precedent is on his side.

*sigh* There was also a call from a corrections officer who's had child predators in his section. Lightly paraphrasing his words: 'He's the kind who makes a model prisoner. They do their time quietly, never cause any trouble -- and a week after they're released, they're on the hunt again.'

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11-17-11, 08:44 PM (EST)
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134. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I heard one analysis of it and a lot of the interview seemed to consist of every tell that someone is lying/covering something up in the book.

Yeah, I can agree with that. If it goes to trial, though, none of that will matter, the defense will object to it being entered into evidence, object to any testimony on its merits or lack thereof, and the judge will probably uphold those objections since, in point of fact, an interview is evidence of nothing, it isn't even sworn testimony.

Creepy as hell, though.

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11-18-11, 11:41 AM (EST)
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136. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I havem't listened to the interview, but depending on what was said, his statements could be admitted as statements against interest

that's why he was told "he has the right to remain silent, anything you say...."
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11-18-11, 02:07 PM (EST)
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137. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
Well, it isn't a confession. The only thing he admits to is taking the showers, so the defense may as well just stipulate to that.

The creepiness are the things he says, the way he says things, particularly about children, how he loves being around children and so on, trying to come off appearing normal like this is what a normal person would say. And he did the interview over the phone, not on camera, so it would be getting into some very esoteric realms of "expert" anaysis.

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11-19-11, 02:45 AM (EST)
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140. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I believe that some of the candid statements that Dr. Murray made were admitted in to evidence in the Jackson murder case.

Speaking of which, if Jackson could serenely (and creepily, in my opinion) admit to sleeping with unrelated young children that he invited into his home on multiple occasions, and still be acquitted of molestation charges, this guy could get off too.

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11-19-11, 02:59 AM (EST)
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141. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
I'm not saying the interview wouldn't be valuable to the prosecution, it certainly would be. Psychologically. What I am saying is the interview proves nothing and is evidence of nothing in legal terms, per the charges made, which the court would have to take into consideration and probably not allow to be admitted into evidence.

It is creepy as hell, though. Very very creepy.

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11-19-11, 08:01 AM (EST)
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142. "RE: Penn State- Moral Obligations?"
What adds the creep factor is when you have a deception analyst or psychologist discuss how he answers the questions.

When asked things like, "are you sexually attracted to boys?" he would repeat the question which is often a way of redefining the words in the moment so you can convince yourself you are answering truthfully even as you deny the accusation.

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11-18-11, 09:34 AM (EST)
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135. "Story #2 breaks."
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7248184/syracuse-police-investigating-bernie-fine-molesting-boy-1980s

Victims finding the courage to finally speak after seeing what's happening in Pennsylvania or DAWs/scam artists looking for their share? Getting both was arguably inevitable: sorting them out will be the real trick.

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12-02-11, 01:49 PM (EST)
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146. "RE: Story #2 breaks."
After listening to the phone calls between the victim and Laurie Fine, there is not one bit of doubt that they, yes THEY, Bernie AND Laurie Fine, fvcked this kid up royally. Not only does Laurie Fine admit that she knew what was going, she admitted that she SAW it with her own two eyes through the basement window of their home. If that wasn't bad enough, she slept with the victim as well!!!

I guess I now know a little bit about the Penn State students are feeling. You love your school and your favorite sport but this makes you sick and it's hard to support a program that would allow this to go on. You can tell from the victim's interviews that he is going to need massive amounts of counselling to ever lead a normal life.

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12-07-11, 05:43 PM (EST)
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152. "No criminal charges."
Not because he's definitively innocent. Not due to lack of evidence.

The statute of limitations ran out.

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11-18-11, 06:39 PM (EST)
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138. "Paterno diagnosed with lung cancer"
This could explain the house being signed over to his wife 4 months ago and other things.

Paterno diagnosed with lung cancer


GO WINGS! 2008 Stanley Cup Champs!
sig Snidget and by IceCat, and bobble head by Tribephyl

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11-18-11, 11:56 PM (EST)
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139. "RE: Paterno diagnosed with lung cancer"
Well, that's awful for him, but it is a plausible explanation for trying to protect his personal assets.
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12-01-11, 02:13 PM (EST)
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143. "Things lawyers never say."
'I may advise my client to plead guilty.'

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7301912/penn-state-nittany-lions-lawyer-jerry-sandusky-talk-guilty-plea

The mountain of evidence just officially became a range.

Meanwhile, the university president has pledged $1,500,000 to fight sexual abuse (or about what the football program makes in a week) with perhaps the most unfortunate quote of the season: "This presents an excellent opportunity for Penn State to raise the national visibility of this issue."

News flash, genius: you already did.

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12-01-11, 02:41 PM (EST)
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144. "RE: Things lawyers never say."
What a great game! I'm going with...

"Don't be silly. This is just a phone call. Why would I be charging you for this?"


Black Friday expectations delivered by Agman, 2011

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12-02-11, 11:37 AM (EST)
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145. "Costas on Daily Show"
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-1-2011/bob-costas?xrs=rss_tdsvids

Jon: I want to talk to you about this Sandusky interview you did. That was the craziest thing I've ever seen on television. My question to you is -- and his lawyer was sitting right next to you -- how did his lawyer allow his client to be on the phone with you?

Bob: He actually offered his client. I was set to interview the lawyer and less than half an hour before we were to sit down he said, "What if we can get Sandusky on the phone?" And I'm thinking "perhaps that isn't the best idea from your standpoint" (Laughter). But yes, we'll do that.

Jon: Did he ever, like as he was leaving, like lean in and go, "By the way, I am a terrible lawyer."? (Laughter.)

Bob: No, no, no he didn't.

Jon: I thought that in this day and age of well-practiced public relations, everybody knows how to mount their defense, dress up and present it, that was the most revealing interview in one of those situations I've ever seen.

Bob: And it was so stripped of all the artifice of television. It was just a disembodied voice, which made it all the stranger, and no B-role, no footage of him. Mostly it was just me looking into the camera instead of looking at him, and him answering these questions in his own way.

Jon: Yeah. I thought one of the most revealing questions, you said to him "Are you sexually attracted to boys --"

Bob: Under-age boys.

Jon: Under-age boys. And he does that thing that people do when they're guilty, he goes, "Am I sexually attracted?" He repeats the question. What? He repeats it, and then he gives some weird well I like their energy.

Bob: Yeah. He said he enjoys being around young people, et cetera, and then eventually he got to "but am I sexually attracted to them, no."

Jon: Right.

Bob: Seventeen seconds before the word no came out.

Jon: But when you said: Are you a pedophile?

Bob: He immediately said no.

Jon: I wonder if in his deluded poisoned head he's like, he thinks there is a difference between being a pedophile and being attracted.

Bob: Or perhaps he thinks.. I'm reluctant to get into this area of speculation--

Jon: That's why I'm doing it. (Laughter.) You're a responsible journalist.

Bob: Continue, Jon, because I'm fascinated. (Laughter.)

Jon rambles and brings up Syracuse.

Bob: So far there is no evidence that there was some kind of institutional cover-up at Syracuse the way there obviously has been, we don't know the full extent yet, at Penn State. But obviously there was some sort of institutional cover-up at Penn State.

Interview continues, worth giving a full listen.

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12-06-11, 01:47 PM (EST)
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147. "Set to testify."
Everybody. All eight of the current accusers will speak at the initial hearing. Sandusky's lawyer says he's looking forward to it. Sandusky is giving interviews to the Times in which he talks about lacking normal boundaries between child and adult, plus horsing around is just a natural part of the relationship. And no one, no one has been able to tell him that the best thing he can do is shut up, because it's reaching the point where all those eight can do is verify everything he's on the verge of saying himself.

At this point, just about the only way to find him not guilty is to put JoePope on the bench. Or in charge of jury selection. Or -- wait. He's already doing all those things, isn't he?

Has the prosecution asked for a change of venue yet?

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12-06-11, 03:03 PM (EST)
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148. "RE: Set to testify."
One of the victim's lawyers was saying that just his client's testimony alone would be specific enough to get a guilty.

I do not understand why Sandusky's lawyer is letting him talk other than they both think they can charm their way out of any situation.

What I can't figure out from the interviews and interview analysis so far is if he is playing this way because he is all too aware of exactly how this manipulation gets him out of all previous situations, or he really has the emotional/mental age of an 8 year old and just isn't capable of doing anything else. One analyst compared it to an eight year old you caught with their hand in the cookie jar and crumbs all over their face. All the same evasion behaviors and manipulations and hoping that they are just too cute to kill. Only thing he hasn't done is fallen asleep in front of everyone which is usually the last refuge of kids and puppies.

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12-06-11, 04:53 PM (EST)
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149. "Story #3 breaks."
http://tinyurl.com/letthisbethelast

How much worse can this get? How many school sports programs are there?

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12-06-11, 05:34 PM (EST)
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150. "RE: Story #3 breaks."
*sigh*

I have a bad feeling we will see a bunch more of these. After all, it is like why there have been previous scandals in organizations where there is access to children.

Like robbers rob banks because that is where the money is, organizations where there is access to kids is going to attract this sort of offender.

Unfortunately the protocols to protect the kids (no kid ever alone with an adult out of eyesight of another adult in the organization, etc.) usually don't get established until after a scandal erupts. I don't think that organizations are any more or less likely than families or individuals to try to avoid getting in trouble.

I just hope that as light gets shined we can protect enough kids that this becomes less common each generation. While most people get through this without keeping the cycle going, there will always be a few people that get broken in a way that keeps the cycle going from generation to generation.


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12-07-11, 05:30 PM (EST)
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151. "Sandusky, more charges, real bail"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57338657/sandusky-jailed-after-new-sex-abuse-charges/

Sounds like this time a judge actually will make him put up bail to be released.

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12-07-11, 05:52 PM (EST)
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153. "RE: Sandusky, more charges, real bail"
Note the jacket he's wearing.

The gift that keeps on giving.

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12-08-11, 04:38 PM (EST)
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154. "Sandusky posts bail: under house arrest."
The quarter-million was created from securing real estate for eighty percent of it and a certified check from his spouse for the rest. He has to wear a monitor anklet and stay within the confines of his property, which should at least cut down on the number of additional charges he can create before the trial starts.

Fifty counts now. And probably climbing.

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12-09-11, 09:01 PM (EST)
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155. "Next up."
*sigh*

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7332846/ex-players-say-aau-bobby-dodd-sexually-abused-youths

It's like watching cracks spread in a dam.

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12-09-11, 09:15 PM (EST)
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156. "RE: Next up."
I guess since the wall of silence broke a lot of people are now able to come forward when they wouldn't or couldn't before.

Sadly I think we are likely to hear a bunch more stories. Hopefully it will clear enough out that things will get much better in the future.

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12-13-11, 06:12 PM (EST)
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157. "Sandusky's plea: not guilty."
He waived the preliminary hearing (at the absolute last second, forcing everyone to waste their time and travel expenses) and requested a jury trial. His lawyer, who has completely ignored what he said earlier, directly said they would fight to the end, accept and make no plea bargains, and then implied the motivation behind all alleged victims was financial. So if you're expecting a tearful breakdown and confession, go watch the twenty-part Law & Order revival that's going to film around this for the next year.

Meanwhile, the Syracuse victims, denied the chance for criminal charges, have gone civil suit. And we wait for the parade to continue.

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12-14-11, 02:10 AM (EST)
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158. "RE: Sandusky's plea: not guilty."
The rare LOL here:
http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/12/13/oops-sandusky-lawyer-makes-joke-about-1-800-reality-which-turns-out-to-be-gay-sex-hotline/

Amendola said, “I suggest you dial 1-800-REALITY.”

It turns out that’s a number for gay-sex phone service. A recorded introduction says the phone chat forum is “the hottest place for triple-X action.”
Coincidentally, Amendola also charges 99 cents a minute.

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12-14-11, 12:35 PM (EST)
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159. "Defensive strategy"
Attack the credibility of every single witness in an all-out linebacker and safety blitz. And go ahead and take the penalty for roughing the passer.

It might be time for the prosecutors to call a screen pass.

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12-15-11, 06:34 PM (EST)
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160. "Can we get a gag order on the lawyer"
please...

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/12/attorney-sandusky-might-have-been-teaching-kids-hygiene/1

because the stuff he's saying is making me gag.

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12-15-11, 06:51 PM (EST)
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161. "RE: Can we get a gag order on the lawyer"
Which is kind of like saying an abusive spouse is helping the beaten one memorize 911.

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01-08-12, 10:21 AM (EST)
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162. "Bill O'Brien (Patriots) new head coach. "
So at least when the fresh regime decides to prevent future incidents by bugging the showers, they'll know where to put the wires.
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01-08-12, 11:29 PM (EST)
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163. "RE: Bill O'Brien (Patriots) new head coach. "
I think there are a couple of former NFL videographers that the Nittany Lions can get cheaply, too.
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01-22-12, 12:07 PM (EST)
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164. "Paterno dies"
RIP, Joe Paterno (1926-2012).

Regardless of his role in this scandal and what some people might think of him (I thought a lot less of him, for one), he had a hell of a life and a great career as a coach.

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01-22-12, 02:06 PM (EST)
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165. "RE: Paterno dies"
Rest in peace, Joe.
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01-22-12, 02:07 PM (EST)
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166. "Partial suicide."
I know he was ill. I also know that when someone gives up the mental end of the fight, the physical collapses faster. As it's possible to will oneself to stay alive a bit longer, you can also try depressing yourself to death and speed that process. I think he partially gave up on battling his disease and on life in general as a way of getting out of ever testifying, being questioned on what happened, and being around to see more of his legacy destroyed. And now that he doesn't have to say anything any more, it goes to the hands of his defenders and second-guessers -- forever.

Coward.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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01-22-12, 05:24 PM (EST)
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167. "RE: Partial suicide."
There's a part of me that agrees with that, but I think it's more likely he died sooner because he had little to look forward to without being on the sidelines -- football was his entire life, despite what has been said about his off-the-field actions within the PSU community, so to have his first love abruptly taken away from him left little for him to enjoy in life other than his family.
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01-22-12, 07:04 PM (EST)
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168. "RE: Partial suicide."
Yep, that lack of something to live for kills off a lot of people.

I know quite a few people don't survive the first year of retirement, and I suspect a forced retirement probably effects the statistics.

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01-23-12, 03:27 AM (EST)
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169. "RE: Partial suicide."
I tend toward Estee's position on this one: knowing that he'd always be questioned about what he did and didn't do after learning that his longtime co-worker and best friend was a child molester probably played as much of a role in his losing the will to live as anything.

His death means that his preposterous claims of naivety about man-boy molestation will never be challenged in court.

But he was a great football coach once upon a time, even if he was a lousy moral example.

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01-23-12, 08:37 AM (EST)
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170. "RE: Partial suicide."
I am sure the "and life can get much worse in a hurry" added to "life as I know it and expected it to continue just ended" also played a part.

Stress never makes any health condition better, and add that to what I was living for is gone and it isn't surprising he died pretty quickly after this all exploded.

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bondt007 3358 desperate attention whore postings
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01-24-12, 11:31 AM (EST)
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171. "RE: Paterno dies"
Pa get's the honor of the states flags flown at half staff?

Ridiculous.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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02-10-12, 06:19 PM (EST)
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172. "Trial date set for 5/14"
And he's miserable because he's not allowed to see his grandchildren. And the defense wants a jury made of Penn State rooters and the prosecution won't cooperate. And he can't step on his deck any more. And why is everybody always picking on him?

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7561921/penn-state-nittany-lions-judge-hears-jerry-sandusky-plea-allow-grandchild-visits

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02-10-12, 07:34 PM (EST)
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173. "RE: Trial date set for 5/14"
There's a school just behind his back yard.

Coincidence?

Thence the deck restrictions.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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02-14-12, 07:03 AM (EST)
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174. "Victim home delivery."
The judge gave him everything he wanted -- grandchildren, visits, and a jury of his extremely local peers.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7570215/penn-state-nittany-lions-judge-sides-jerry-sandusky-grandkid-visits-local-jury

The next generation of abuse begins at home.

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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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02-14-12, 05:12 PM (EST)
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175. "I'm confused"
Yeah, I know. What's new. But I thought he had supervised visitation for his grandkids, so what was the big deal? Why does he HAVE to see them by himself? I did see one DIL(soon to be XDIL) said no. She's the only smart one.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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02-14-12, 05:24 PM (EST)
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176. "RE: I'm confused"
Why does he HAVE to see them by himself

You just asked a question you already knew the answer to.

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Round Robin 2243 desperate attention whore postings
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02-18-12, 05:39 AM (EST)
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177. "RE: I'm confused"
Regarding the local jury, the locals might be more pi$$ed at him than he realizes. Those people worshipped Paterno like he was God Almighty, and like most of his ex-players, most of them are pi$$ed at anybody they think had anything to do with JoePa getting fired, and now that he's dead they probably blame the board of trustees and Spanier and Curley and Schultz and McQueary and the cops and the prosecutors and every Tom, D1ck and Harry under the sun for his death, so they're probably pi$$ed at Sandusky too. And you know that lady prosecutor isn't gonna cut him any slack because busting his nuts will probably put the biggest scalp on her belt she'll ever take. She doesn't know it yet, but she can't win either way on this one because if she puts Sandusky in prison most of his family and friends and a lot of fans will be pi$$ed at her, and if he beats the rap, a lot of other people will be pi$$ed at her. Bottom line is that the local jury is just as likely to have it in for him as an out of county jury would, and I don't think he improved his chances much by requesting a local jury.
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agman 11158 desperate attention whore postings
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02-22-12, 04:14 PM (EST)
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178. "RE: I'm confused"
I think you are exactly right on this.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-05-12, 06:25 PM (EST)
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179. "Jury selection begins."
I know they say 'a jury of your peers', but I'm pretty sure this isn't what they meant.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8011172/eight-jurors-selected-jerry-sandusky-child-sex-abuse-trial

We haven't even hit the official Day One and the playing field already feels titled at ninety degrees: any evidence placed on it is just gonna slide straight down...

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06-06-12, 08:52 AM (EST)
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180. "RE: Jury selection begins."
The question might become if a long time season ticket holder will be sympathetic to Sanducky, or want his blood for what he did, what it did to Penn State's reputation, and eventually what it did to Joe Pa.
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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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06-12-12, 07:18 AM (EST)
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181. "Father kills man sexually abusing his daughter"
Now this is normal reaction of a human when you walk in on a kid being abused


sig Syren, bouncy by IceCat, bobble head by Tribephyl, and snoglobe by agman

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-12-12, 06:47 PM (EST)
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184. "RE: Father kills man sexually abusing his daughter"
Let's hope for a grand jury in agreement. The daughter needs as much family as she can get.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-19-12, 03:42 PM (EST)
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190. "Update."
The grand jury will have to rule on whether to indict on a homicide charge. No guarantees...
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Round Robin 2243 desperate attention whore postings
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06-20-12, 09:32 AM (EST)
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191. "RE: Update."
If that grand jury indicts a father who caught a guy abusing HIS DAUGHTER, every one of them should be publicly hanged. Indicting this father would be as offensive and immoral as what the dead guy did. The dead guy got what he deserved, and this is one instance in which taking the law into one's own hands was exactly the right thing to do.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-12-12, 01:26 PM (EST)
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182. "Testimony begins."
And the fourth shall be first.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/11/justice/pennsylvania-sandusky-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

In addition to the Histrionic Defense making its premiere, today brings news that the investigation into Penn State's possible 'what did we know and how fast do we deny knowing it?' coverup found what the headline stream is calling a Secret Sandusky File -- one which apparently contradicts the facts which the university tried to feed the press.

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Round Robin 2243 desperate attention whore postings
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06-12-12, 03:21 PM (EST)
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183. "RE: Testimony begins."
We already knew they knew years ago that Sandusky is guilty as hell, and when this secret file news becomes more widely known, some pretty high people at Penn State, some who we already know about and some who have gotten less publicity, are gonna be in a world of hurt reputation-wise even if they don't go to jail or even to court.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-12-12, 06:56 PM (EST)
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185. "RE: Testimony begins."
McQueary took the stand today.

Speaking of people whose reputation should die...

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Round Robin 2243 desperate attention whore postings
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06-13-12, 04:23 AM (EST)
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186. "RE: Testimony begins."
McQueary should have punched Sandusky's lights out right there on the spot when he caught him BFing that kid. But McQueary was too big of a wimp and too busy thinking about protecting his own a$$ to do right by the kid. If I had been in McQueary's place I might have spent a long time in the slammer for what I would have done to Sandusky, but by God he never would have abused another kid.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-18-12, 05:14 PM (EST)
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187. "Prosecution rests: defense begins."
They're starting with character witnesses, including coaches who say that showering with the kids is normal -- for a given value of 'with' which got taken apart on cross. Oh, and there was a former charity kid whom he didn't rape. Missed one!

The paid psych will be later. Not too much later -- the case may get to the jury by Thursday, since the defense didn't manage to get it dismissed today. No word on whether Sandusky will testify. Having him try to sell his happy perjury may seem to be his only hope -- but remember how he came across in the televised interviews.

This feels like it's moving very fast.

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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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06-19-12, 02:33 PM (EST)
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188. "RE: Prosecution rests: defense begins."
I agree, seems to be moving way too fast.
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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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06-19-12, 03:21 PM (EST)
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189. "RE: Prosecution rests: defense begins."
Second, second....too fast means things may not go the way we are thinking.


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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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06-20-12, 08:47 PM (EST)
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192. "The defense rest"
He didn't take the stand in his own defense but I'm worried. We shall see.


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Round Robin 2243 desperate attention whore postings
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06-21-12, 00:30 AM (EST)
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193. "RE: The defense rest"
He didn't take the stand because the prosecution would have ripped his lungs out on cross. He's guilty as hell, but his only chance to create reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors would have been gone with the wind if he had undergone cross. I still think he's gonna lose, but jail would have been a certainty had he testified.
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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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06-21-12, 07:45 AM (EST)
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194. "RE: The defense rest"
Or as we have seen in other cases they don't think the prosecution has a strong case thus they don't need him. I just have a bad feeling about this case.


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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-21-12, 03:20 PM (EST)
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195. "NBC claim for Sandusky not testifying."
LAST EDITED ON 06-21-12 AT 06:21 PM (EST)

According to them, Sandusky was prepared to take the stand in his own defense -- but the prosecution informed the defense that if Sandusky went up, they were going to call one of his sons (Matt) as a surprise rebuttal witness to bring in some new information. After much lawyer freaking out, Sandusky backed down.

ETA: I got this over the radio, so didn't have a link at the initial posting. Here's one copy of the story.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Sandsuky-Son-Testify-NBC-Source-159859365.html

Re-edit: my first guess -- the one I initially wrote and then deleted for lack of confirmation -- was correct: abuse begins at home. Matt's testimony would have raised the witness count by one.

He approached the prosecution and offered his story during the trial: that may be why he could only be used as a rebuttal witness (and naturally the defense had to be informed that the state could add one). He does not want to talk to the media about this right now and possibly ever. But his willingness to step forward could have been the final nail -- except that the jury, if rules are being followed, has no idea this happened.

Deliberations are under way. The sheer number of charges mean this could take a few days even with no argument on any issue.

And we wait.

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06-22-12, 07:42 AM (EST)
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