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"The Roger Clemens perjury trial."
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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07-06-11, 06:48 AM (EST)
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"The Roger Clemens perjury trial."
I really don't have much hope of seeing anyone found guilty for committed crimes right now.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial... kingfish 07-10-11 1
   RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial... Estee 07-10-11 2
       RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial... kingfish 07-10-11 3
 mistrial declared dabo 07-14-11 4
   RE: mistrial declared HobbsofMI 07-15-11 5
       RE: mistrial declared michel 07-15-11 6
       RE: mistrial declared AyaK 07-21-11 7
 How many rules can we break before ... Estee 09-07-11 8
 Take #2. Estee 04-16-12 9
 RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial... kingfish 05-18-12 10
   RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial... Estee 05-19-12 11
 The jury has questions. Estee 05-22-12 12
 Brace yourselves. Estee 06-08-12 13
   RE: Brace yourselves. kingfish 06-08-12 14
       RE: Brace yourselves. Estee 06-08-12 15
           HOF byoffer 06-08-12 16
 Not guilty PepeLePew13 06-18-12 17
   RE: Not guilty Estee 06-18-12 18
       RE: Not guilty kingfish 06-18-12 19
           RE: Not guilty HobbsofMI 06-18-12 20
               RE: Not guilty kingfish 06-19-12 21
                   RE: Not guilty HobbsofMI 06-19-12 22
                       RE: Not guilty kingfish 06-19-12 23
                           RE: Not guilty HobbsofMI 06-19-12 24
                               RE: Not guilty kingfish 06-19-12 25
                                   RE: Not guilty HobbsofMI 06-20-12 26
                                       RE: Not guilty Round Robin 06-20-12 27
                                       RE: Not guilty kingfish 06-20-12 28

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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07-10-11, 12:35 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial."
LAST EDITED ON 07-10-11 AT 12:37 PM (EST)

There's a much weaker case against Clemens than there was against Anthony, IMO. Also, comparing a particularly ugly murder case to a perjury case involving lying about using steroids? Maybe they are both guilty as hello, but come on.

The steroids may have helped Clemens scare a few batters with a little exceptional chin music, but it's difficult to see any real damage coming from his crime. And since the crime he's accused of is lying to Congress, the anarchist in me says "More Power" anyway. One of my biggest questions is, why the heck are they even pursuing this? Is/was Clemens that big of an AH that he warrants a federal trial on perjury about his personal steroid use?

The evidence (as I understand it):
1. A former friend and trainer, McNamee insists that he injected Clemens with steroids and HGF during two periods of his career. And saved needles and bloody wipes from then.

McNamee made this claim after he had been accused of buying illegal steroids and is presumably getting a break for the Fed.s for his help in convicting this particularly dangerous character, Clemens. A real threat to society, he is. He (McNamee) has also been accused of date rape drugging a woman and raping her in a swimming pool.

Not only is this a case of "he said-he said", the accuser in this case is pretty easy to discredit by any capable defense attorney. And if one has doubt as to McNamee's honesty, then one would have to have doubt as to the needle evidence (if it really exists), it could have been be faked by someone that had the kind of access to Clemens that McNamee had.

2. A former friend (Pettite) says he heard Clemens say at a party once that he had been injected with steroids. Since the charges Clemens faces are for knowingly lying to Congress when he testified before a congressional committee, an argument that either his or Pettite's memory is faulty should be sufficient to negate this testimony.

3. There might be something yet to be sprung in court that hasn't been published yet. But with the court room rules of discovery, it's hard to see this happening.

You're right though, Clemens is probably guilty of using the drugs and lying about it. Everything about his actions indicates that he is an extremely egotistical guy, and one we all love to hate. But really, does a case with this kind of evidence warrant a federal trial? Really? It's difficult for me to agree that it does.

The Defense Rests.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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07-10-11, 12:56 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial."
Is/was Clemens that big of an AH that he warrants a federal trial on perjury about his personal steroid use?

Yes. (And furthermore, duh.)

I'm not comparing the level of the respective crimes: it was just that having this one start as the other one ended didn't find me at a good point for raw amount of faith in the justice system.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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07-10-11, 03:10 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial."
I can dig.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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07-14-11, 12:51 PM (EST)
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4. "mistrial declared"
inadmissable evidence, show on hold until they figure what to do next.
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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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07-15-11, 01:31 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: mistrial declared"
You think maybe the prosecutor messed up on purpose to save his reputation? The gov could say it's an honest mistake and we had him and he can say he was never convicted so let me in the Hall.


GO WINGS! 2008 Stanley Cup Champs!
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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07-15-11, 06:08 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: mistrial declared"
But unless he's declared innocent, he will not be admitted to the HOF. That's something for his detractors.
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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
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07-21-11, 07:36 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: mistrial declared"
>You think maybe the prosecutor messed up on purpose to save
>his reputation? The gov could say it's an honest
>mistake and we had him and he can say he
>was never convicted so let me in the Hall.

No, I think this was a flat-out screw-up. The judge has reason to be furious with both sets of lawyers: the prosecution for failing to re-edit the film after the judge ruled certain testimony inadmissible, and the defense for failing to object at once in its effort to force a mistrial. Had the defense objected at once, the trial could have continued after a delay to re-edit the tape. Thus, I don't think the judge will permit the defense to benefit from its failure to object and will instead schedule a retrial.

I'm certain the prosceution wants to try to remove the stain of incompetence that has attacxhed to it.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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09-07-11, 04:23 PM (EST)
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8. "How many rules can we break before the next trial?"
At least one.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6940500/judge-says-roger-clemens-defense-team-contacted-jurors-violation-court-order

It's nice to see him finding so many people in agreement with his personal philosophy.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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04-16-12, 06:47 AM (EST)
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9. "Take #2."
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7817965/roger-clemens-returns-court-retrial-perjury-charges

Or as I like to think of it, the first stage in either the Smirk Seen 'Round The World or an inevitable trail of appeals ending in a demand for a court above the Supreme. Because no one is ever guilty as long as they have the money to stall with.

Clemens found an attorney who's a perfect match for him, didn't he?

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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05-18-12, 02:10 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial."
LAST EDITED ON 05-18-12 AT 02:11 PM (EST)

Time to bump this.

They got past the first day this time. From the media reports it seems that the judge would just a soon put both attorneys in jail for dawdling, and that the jury is getting lots of nap time.

McNamee admits he's not told the truth at times in connection with this case (but denies lying) but that now he's telling the whole truth, and Pettitt admits his memory may be have been faulty.

DNA forensic evidence has yet to be admitted, used needles that McNamee says were used to inject Clemens and that had been preserved by him in a used Miller (or Bud?) lite beer can he fished out of Clemen's trash. The Judges on Law and Order would have thrown that kind of thing out based on chain of possession and the obvious possibility of having been tampered with by McNamee, I believe. But that's just TV.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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05-19-12, 09:04 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: The Roger Clemens perjury trial."
The juror who was dismissed for falling asleep amused me -- until I realized it's two down and two to go before they empty the alternates pool, and anything after that means Goodbye Trial. I don't think the judge will be happy if this has to wind up at Round Three, but the defense will be thrilled.

The near-total lack of baseball fans and casual followers within the jury worries me. I realize the defense was probably auto-challenging anyone who could identify the local team along with every biochemist in the pack, but I could wish for a few more people who understand what a stats bump looks like.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-12, 09:24 PM (EST)
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12. "The jury has questions."
And lots of them.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7959916/roger-clemens-juror-asks-why-believe-you

I'm hardly a legal expert and the number of juries I've been on is 'one', but I've never heard of a judge doing this. I didn't even know it was allowed.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-08-12, 11:41 AM (EST)
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13. "Brace yourselves."
Given the way the defense has been running rings around the prosecution, victory can now be looked at as any verdict which does not award Clemens one hundred million dollars in personal damages.
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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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06-08-12, 01:22 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Brace yourselves."
I think the charge of lying about not attending a party might still hold up. And if he had instead stated that he didn't remember attending that party instead of emphatically stating that he didn't attend, even that would be doubtful.

(Yawn)

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-08-12, 02:19 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Brace yourselves."
At this point, I have no doubt on two things:

1. He's guilty on all charges.

2. They can't prove it.

The smirking S.O.B. is going to get off, and there's nothing that can be done to stop it. My only consolation prize is that the Hall will remain locked to him -- until he sues for discrimination.

He should probably avoid autograph sessions for a few years. There will be people willing to pay $300 for the honor of spitting on him.

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byoffer 15808 desperate attention whore postings
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06-08-12, 02:37 PM (EST)
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16. "HOF"
How long before Clemens, McGwire, and Bonds open their own Hall of Fame?
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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06-18-12, 04:54 PM (EST)
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17. "Not guilty"
Quelle surprise.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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06-18-12, 05:08 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Not guilty"
On a scale of 1-10 Matt, how big was his smirk?

*sigh* Y'know, federal prosecutors used to have a really good conviction rate.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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06-18-12, 05:51 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Not guilty"
LAST EDITED ON 06-18-12 AT 05:54 PM (EST)

He repeatedly and steadfastly denied use of steroids, once in front of a senate committee. The Gov then charged him with lying to the committee with a very limited body of evidence, (essentially one person (an admitted liar) said he helped inject him with steroids, and another thought he heard him talk of it, but wasn't sure), and a jury acquitted him.

That seems like pretty high handed treatment by the Government. He should be able to charge the Gov. for legal expenses, and sue them for harassment, if not for frivolous litigation.

If he hadn't spent his career showing what an a'hole he was, or if he had at least sucked up to the media so that they would be inclined to help hide his arrogance, he might not have been pursued so intently.

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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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06-18-12, 10:51 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Not guilty"
You forgot about Andy Pettitte's testimony. Nothing grey about that.

Sorry but he's a user and will pay the price with HOF votes.

I thought it was a weak cases after they blew the first trail and should have folded then.


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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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06-19-12, 09:25 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Not guilty"
No, Andy Pettitte' testimony was very gray. During the trial he admitted that although he thought he heard Roger admit to once using HGH, he wasn't really sure if he heard him right or what Roger was referring to, and that he might have been mistaken. That not only grayed his testimony, it made it practically worthless in terms of "reasonable doubt".

Not sure about HOF. Although the voting is supposed to be based upon the record of the player, the opinion of the voters as to a players worthiness is a factor. However there is nothing solid on which to base a rejection, so he might scrape up enough votes. HOF inductee Ty Cobb got voted in with the highest number of votes in HOF history, and he was the biggest a'hole you can imagine, along with being a bigoted racist and known for trying to injure opposing players with his sharpened spikes. They didn't know about steroids then (I think?), but if they had, he would have been one of the bad boys there too.

That was 1936, and admittedly voters tendencies may have evolved since then, but given his record as one of the most dominant pitchers in BB history, ranking up there with almost anyone you can name and with no admitted or proven negatives other than being surly to the media (who are HOF voters), he may get in. He has admirers in the press.

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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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06-19-12, 12:53 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Not guilty"
Key words there: during the trial.


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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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06-19-12, 02:26 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Not guilty"
LAST EDITED ON 06-19-12 AT 02:26 PM (EST)

That was key. Very key. And I would imagine that that not only made Andy's testimony very gray, it more than anything else pretty much put the prosecution's case in the ditch.

10's of millions of prosecution money down the drain to prove Roger lied about one shot of HGH. Not that his memory was faulty, not that he just forgot, but that he actually had the arrogance to volunteer a lie about that and about being at a one of Canseco's parties. And it all depended on how Pettite testified, Clemons old friend. I think it's a pile of crap myself.

Yeah, he's a bad man, alright.

Is money really that unimportant to the government? Would have it really have been worth it even if the jury had returned a guilty verdict? Who would have benefited? Maybe the prosecutor would have been able to run for president on the basis of this would be stellar conviction.

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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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06-19-12, 03:18 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Not guilty"
LAST EDITED ON 06-19-12 AT 03:19 PM (EST)

If you think he only took one shot....I have a bridge to sell you.

If the government don't go after those who are under oath then why should we go after speeders? one joint? one punch? one gun shot?

Where is the line? Should we put a $ sign on justice? So those who have money have another thing they can just buy away?

Again, I thought it was weak and they should have gave up after the first mistrial, espeically after how Bond's trail ended up.

But he used and will pay with HOF votes.


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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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06-19-12, 03:55 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Not guilty"
If you think he only took one shot....I have a bridge to sell you.

Prove he even took one shot. Or hand over my bridge.

In addition to your other questions of justice, what about innocent until proven guilty?

So why should he pay in terms of HOF? Obviously, like you(?) some writers/voters think he's only innocent by technicality (the technicality being that he was declared innocent by the unanimous vote of a jury), so he might. Foretelling the jury vote was easier than foretelling how the sportswriters will vote.

With the exception of those directly involved, every thing we think we know about Roger Clemons use of steroids was given to us thru the media, and nothing we know is more indicative of his guilt than what was presented in court. Yet so many of us are dead convinced of his guilt in spite of his acquittal. This isn't an OJ verdict, or a Casey Anthony verdict, the evidence in this trial is no where nearly as damning as that in those trials.

Again, 10s of millions for what? To prove Clemons lied in his voluntary testimony in front of the senate, lies which were essentially about one shot of HGH, and his attendance at a party. 10s of millions of your government's money for that. If you think they pursue every one that is arrogant in front of a committee, or that they think is lying, I have a few acres of swampland to sell you.

I do agree that it sould have been dropped after the mistrial. I would even argue that it was frivilous litigation from the start by fame seeking prosecutors who were desparate to get a conviction of someone after their failures in other steroid cases.

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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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06-20-12, 07:57 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Not guilty"
Just because you are found not guilty in court doesn't mean you didn't do it. See OJ and yes the evidence is there but you are choosing not to see it.

See the Mitchell report, see Andy's first statements and why would Brian McNamee lie? He was under oath too.

Where there has been smoke with baseball players there is 100% of the time there is a fire. Look at all those named who denied it over and over then over time more and more come out and they are dirty. Roger didn't retain all his stuff at such a late age due to diet or work out routine. He grew and got stronger when he should have been decreasing. Look at and watch pitchers today or in the pass.

You are a true believer in him just like some Barry fans are but you can't see the forest through the trees. The proof is there you just don't think it is.

Last all those who lied in front of the committee, what happen later. They all came clean: Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc. Why? I would bet the feds said we have this and if you come clean no prosecution and/or more came out and they knew if they didn't fess up they would be next. Plus if you fess up things are forgotten faster. Andy is proof of that.

I'm saying he'll pay with votes for the HOF because those who vote have some of the most craziest unspoken rules and are so egocentric in their voting and anyone has a hint of steroid use will not get in by them.


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Round Robin 2243 desperate attention whore postings
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06-20-12, 09:23 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: Not guilty"
According to ESPN at least one juror said McNamee was a liar, and once the jury believed he was a liar that pretty much blew the whole case to bits.
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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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06-20-12, 02:40 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Not guilty"
LAST EDITED ON 06-20-12 AT 02:45 PM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 06-20-12 AT 02:44PM (EST)

I am an unapologetic admirer of Roger Clemons as a pitcher, there have been very few who rank up with him on the field.

But I see that in spite of a court acquittal, you still find him guilty, in spite of you (I assume) having no involvement, no independent proof of you own. You, sitting and judging from afar, obviously feel superior toe the jury who were first hand observers to the trial evidence.

I invite you to read the Mitchell report. Really read it, and try and get proof of his guilt from that. It is not an incontrovertible demonstration of his guilt. It is barely above the hogwash level in that regard.

Why would McNanee lie? You have to be kidding. He is a proven and admitted liar. On issues in this case and in others. And he made a deal with the prosecutors, he had a self interest in lying. That's why his testimony was flawed.

The question of whether he (RC) took steroids is moot, I don't know whether he did or not, and I don't advocate a position on that. Read my posts over again, you seem to have wandered astray there.

I just say that the prosecution was frivolous based on the witnesses and proof they offered, and a waste of tax money.

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