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"Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For""
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-18-10, 11:19 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Ok" |
They were needed to stop Smokey from destroying the world. He is evil incarnate.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 07:29 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
So is immortal Richard dead or what? I frame by framed it and his body never hits ground, just sails out of the shot. (The smoke only butted him, it didn't grab him.)I think Ben was motivated by seeing Alex's grave and then Widmore. They didn't make it clear, but I think he was redeemed Ben until he got there, and then Alex reminder, and then if Widmore was working for Jacob, Ben had to be the opposite. Like that episode of Seinfeld. Wasn't there a rule that Ben couldn't kill Widmore? Season 4? Why Jacob couldn't have talked to his candidates before he got killed is a mystery to me. OK, I understand he couldn't have because then there wouldn't have been six seasons, but other than for purposes of stretching it out, I'm not clear why he couldn't have strolled into the beach camp long ago. Why did the Tailies and all those red shirts have to die? Human beings don't really matter? Hurley just says oh, Ana-Lucia, I didn't know you were in this episode? Now that he's remembered Libby, Ana-Lucia is matter of fact? I did enjoy watching this. Just suspended any idea that they are going to explain any more than the magic light per what we saw last week. I wanted it to go faster in that I was bummed that we didn't even get to the concert this week. I guess it's part of the big climax. Jack's ex will be there, Juliet? I wonder if David will play "The End" (not a piano piece, but it would be apt.)
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 08:57 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
well, yeah, the moment when Jack volunteered as candidate was pure FOTR. Council of Elrond, who will take on the burden of carrying the Ring and taking it to Mount Doom?I'll do it, says Frodo. Of course the punch of that scene was that there were Elven masters, wizards, and great warriors in the room, but the little guy from the quiet Shire took it on. Whereas Jack "Mr Compulsively Fix Whatever is Wrong) was expected to volunteer (by the viewers). Whatever happened to "the island is a cork holding the evil in?" The "island is a place of magic light that needs to be protected from people that want to harness its power" is a whole 'nother idea. With Jacob leaving went all hope they would come up with any kind of explanation of why MIB became the smoke monster. It just happened. If I had been on the island, and Jacob had said he made the smoke monster what it is, I would for sure have said, "who was he originally? what is a smoke monster? How did it happen? Jacob tells them that when the fire burns out he'll be gone forever. That means no more answers ever. And seriously, no one asks him anything. It's like they all had a screening of Across the Sea last week and they don't need to ask. Jacob says that Jack needs to kill the smoke monster and he doesn't even give him any tips like "doesn't like garlic" or "use a silver bullet" or "throw a bucket of water on him." Seriously, supposedly the end of life and love as we know it are at stake, and Jacob doesn't give Jack ANY knowledge of the smoke monster's possible vulnerabilities? What about the stupid Rules? Any tips on those? What would have happened if Hurley threw another log on the fire? Would Jacob have stuck around longer? Why does burning ashes, which are already burned up matter, keep Jacob in the world? Why didn't Jacob just ask Hurley for them? He can talk to Hurley. Why could people see Jacob who couldn't see him before? How did Jacob go all around the world to find people when his mother said he could never leave the island, and why was he never worried that the smoke monster would mess with the light while he was gone? Arghh.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 09:18 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
"With Jacob leaving went all hope they would come up with any kind of explanation of why MIB became the smoke monster..."No, Jack has become Jacob: "You and I are the same." "Why could people see Jacob who couldn't see him before?" They weren't ready. Ben was never ready. Why? Why? Why? That's a lot of questions that should be asked when the finished product is there to defend itself.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 11:28 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
There are questions that the characters should have asked. So you think that Jacob magically transmitted his centuries of knowledge and experience to Jack with the magic stream water? Hmmm.Jacob didn't get his mother's knowledge when he drank the enchanted wine and she told him that now he is like her. Obviously he did not or he wouldn't have pushed his brother into the light. Jacob was dim even after he became the caretaker. A couple thousand years later and he seems to know quite a lot. Jacob made a world-screwing-up mistake shortly after becoming the caretaker. How many people have died because he didn't know how it all worked? But he has no concern that Jack needs to know anything. I think you put way more thought into this than they do, michel. I think there are two reasons that information doesn't get shared in a natural way on the show. One is that they haven't thought it all out (the writers), but the fans take care of that as you do by thinking out for them. Two is that they're holding on to mystery. I don't expect to ever know how a smoke monster exists and functions at this point. They made it clear they were leaving pseudo-science behind when they went for magic light in the cave as the reason for everything. So now they slay the dragon for the Finale. It's all been very simplistic for a show that pretended to be extremely complex. It's all coming down to let's kill the bad guy before he kills us. I don't agree that questions can't be asked as it goes along. This episode was part of the Finale (according to Darlton, they consider it like all one episode, same as with other finales.) They have two and a half hours left, including commercials, and there is no reason to thing they'll come back and answer any of the questions I just asked. My questions are simply about why characters do what they do. I stop believing in (suspending my disbelief) characters that aren't written to behave sensibly. I've never seen a movie or TV show where the characters got handed a mission this big and inexplicable. Jeez, the person with all the answers is disappearing forever. At least ask Jacob how to kill he who cannot be killed with bullets or mortar rounds.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-20-10, 06:59 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
"I don't think you can know why he threw brother in the light."I remember him saying: "You want to leave this island, then go!" Should I watch again? "If he had all of mother's knowledge, then Smokey shouldn't have been a surprise" His mother never looked inside the cave so she wouldn't know about Smokey either. She only stood guard. Jacob had more curiosity. That's what I took from his facial expressions: He always observed and tried to understand. The BIB was quick but thought he knew it all. "You might look at the Sneak Peek #1, post #2 in the Spoiler topic" Nope! I don't want any sneak peeks, I want the whole thing as fresh as possible. I had more than enough spoilers with Survivor. I'd rather be wrong with my guesses and theories than right because someone else spoon fed me the intel (remember where that comes from?!). I know clips and promos aren't source spoilers but this isn't a reality show either.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-20-10, 11:14 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
>I remember him saying: "You want >to leave this island, then >go!" Should I watch again? That's a basis for spec, not good enough to establish that his mother transferred her memory and knowledge to him. We need to separate spec from what can be proved by what was shown. He could have said that based on his own spec off the little Momster told him. Dying is a way of leaving, which is how I interpreted his line and act -- as an attempt to kill his brother. >His mother never looked inside the cave so she wouldn't know about Smokey either. She only stood guard. We have no idea whether this is true. We don't know her history, and will never know it. We also don't know if anything she said to the boys/men was true. What she did say is that something very bad would happen (or words to that effect), which leaves us to speculate what she knew and what she meant, and whether it had happened to her (as she is able to kill a village and fill a well). Post-communion Jacob was not radiant with knowledge. Momster easily got him to go gather firewood so he would be out of the way when MIB showed up. If Jacob had accessed all of her knowledge, he would have been aware of her weariness of the job, which we deduce when she thanks MIB for killing her. He may even have understood. But he responded with youthful and unfiltered rage to what his brother did. There is nothing to indicate that Jacob is now equal and privy to all of Momster's memories, which is what you are arguing. If the writers wanted us to KNOW that J had access to Mom's knowledge, a few words would have sufficed. "There, now we are the same and you know what I know." Simple. But they didn't. Same when Jacob gave Jack the water. He said "Now you are like me." Jack will not die, we know that. What other powers come with the transfer are not clear. However, we can reasonably infer that Jacob does not expect Jack to gain his knowledge of facts, his memories, with the drink. Because if the drink transfers memories, Jacob doesn't need to give Jack directions of any kind to the Light, because Jack will have it all in his head once he drinks. Totally superfluous to tell him to head out past the bamboo forest. Jacob does tell Jack, now you'll be able to find it, and that would seem to be part of taking on the job -- whatever veil is camouflaging the Light gets lifted. We know that Brother searched the island for the place he was taken, and could not find it, even though he had been there before. That implies that the Caretaker of the Light can see it and maybe others cannot without help. (Which raises another question, why Smokey can attack the Light now, but hasn't been able to for two millenia just because Jacob was there. Why is Jacob's presence sufficient but Jack's is not? We don't know and we're not going to be told.) This leads me back to my complaint that there's no discussion on the nature of Smokey and how he may or may not be killed, what he might do to the Light, whether Jacob's death empowers Smokey, all of that. I understand that in the communion scene that Jack was in a spiritual state of submitting to his destiny, and didn't grill Jacob on the job. But the discussion of whether the monster could be killed came earlier, before Jack accepted. He asked if it was possible to kill Smokey and all Jacob said was "I hope so ..." because he sure is coming after you. Could have maybe seen a little stress from the group at that point? Smokey is after you, no more rules ... he can kill you now ... oh wait, why can he kill them now? We have to guess, the rules have changed again. Even if you see this story as a fantasy genre instead of realism (which is the direction it's taken), typically, in any story of the quest genre, the person who inherits a certain task or responsibility ASKS what to do and how to do it -- especially knowing that the wise mentor figure is about to vanish. The response might be cryptic, might be a riddle to be solved, but this is just dodge the question that Jacob engages in. Wouldn't this be a good time to ask about the Rules, what Jacob knows about what the monster is, but no, not even Sawyer asks. And the fire is burning, tick tock tick tock ... Jacob will be gone forever, and they're all just sitting there talking and pausing and it's all very sloooow ... Notice that Jacob didn't divulge any information that the audience didn't see in Across the Sea. If ever there was to be anything more answered about the mythology, this was the time. My frustration is that the writers choose to shackle the characters' natural curiosity, because the writers only intend to reveal so much. It's almost over; reveal something. >Nope! I don't want any sneak >peeks, I want the whole >thing as fresh as possible. >I had more than enough >spoilers with Survivor. I'd rather >be wrong with my guesses >and theories than right because >someone else spoon fed me >the intel (remember where that >comes from?!).
That's fine, it can wait ... just know I wouldn't have suggested for you to look at a real spoiler. The one minute scene dances around what we're discussing, but doesn't give any answers. It is LOST after all.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-21-10, 07:19 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
>That's a basis for spec, not >good enough to establish that >his mother transferred her memory >and knowledge to him. >We need to separate spec >from what can be proved >by what was shown. Sure, the transmission of knowledge is spec but what isn't speculation however is the special power that Mommy Dearest and Jacob have. If someone can give immortality to Richard and can not only share an island with Smokey but impose his rules on it then, when he sits down with you, recites a magical spell in a foreign language and says you are the same as him then he means more than you two are good drinking buddies. What isn't speculation either is that Jacob wants to see Jack succeed. He gave him all that he could give him. According to the authors, that's all we really needed to know. If Jack received Jacob's knowledge, he will certainly need time to digest it all. A little push in the right direction doesn't contradict that. When Jack needs the knowledge, it will be there, just like the light that isn't there but that he knows he will find. So for the rest, I'll wait and see what the finished product looks like before judging. >just know I wouldn't have suggested >for you to look at >a real spoiler.
Well, you did it with Survivor...
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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05-19-10, 12:47 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
So. Kate got crossed off the wall because she became a mother, but Sun and Jin, also parents, got to stay on the wall and die on a sub? Thanks, Jacob. You're a swell guy. I still find something fishy about Jacob. He's sure burned through a lot of people on the island. So was the fact that some of his ashes were in Hurley's pocket keeping him around? If that's all it took then why did he need a candidate at all? He really just doesn't want the job his mommy made him do, does he. I hope she never asked him to take out the trash. I love the character of Ben Linus. I can't say that I'm surprised that he shot Widmore but it was still a "wow" moment for me. Bye Zoe. Your throat slashing wasn't as funny a Ilana-go-boom, but I'll take it. Desmond giving Kate the dress reminded me of Ben giving Kate the dress in the polar bear cage. I'm still holding out hope for a great story twist coming in the finale. The "we all have to band together to beat the bad guy" is a pretty classic ending so maybe that's where we're headed.
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weltek 16933 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 12:58 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
I think we need a "dress up Kate" doll to commemorate LOST.I'm assuming Jin was still a candidate because he wasn't yet part of his daughters life? *shrug* I'm with you in the Jacob skepticism. Did you notice our sideways jailbirds were dressed in Black? Coincidence? -A Tribetastic Creation
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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05-19-10, 01:32 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
I had that thought about Jin, too, which would also excuse Sawyer (also a parent.) But I think Jacob was blowing smoke up Kate's dress, honestly. About Jacob, if his job is to protect the light from the bad people from across the sea, then his bringing so many people to the island and exposing it to so many potential baddies is kind of irresponsible. He's telling people that they've been chosen to do something very important which will save mankind, which sounds all noble and good and white and light but has very little detail. Who doesn't want to hear that they've been chosen to do something special? Ben desperately wanted to hear it. Jacob even said in last night's ep that he chose those Losties because they had nothing, otherwise. Rather perfect pickings to choose a bunch of sad, otherwise not-so-special-to-anyone-else folks and give them something to feel special about. I still think there's something to the idea that MiB is really protecting the light by killing off the baddies who would come to steal it. His methods are just a little gruesome, but I have to wonder who has the higher body count, Jacob or MiB?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 08:47 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-19-10 AT 09:20 PM (EST)"So. Kate got crossed off the wall because she became a mother, but Sun and Jin, also parents, got to stay on the wall and die on a sub? Thanks, Jacob. You're a swell guy" I really think you are reading this wrong: Smokey killed the Kwons. They had a chance to leave the island but only Sun managed to go. That freighter was Widemore's and we heard from Widemore himself that he was on the wrong path before and only realized it after talking to Jacob. With Jin still on the island, it was better not to cross him out. Leaving him as a candidate saved him from Smokey's direct actions. Only by using Sawyer did Smokey get to Jin.
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warp_core breach 469 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
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05-19-10, 12:50 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
I liked this episode and I'm getting depressed that the end is very near.As a comment to last week's episode, MIB was the victim of Mommy Dearest (as one poster had put it) and his own brother. All he wanted to do was to really leave the island. Mommy Dearest and Brother Jake put a stop to that. So not only is he a bitter MIB who has been trapped on the island for so long but he is also the embodiment of all the negative energy he absorbed when he became Smokey. I don't think that the original MIB would have killed people so ruthlessly when he was just a normal man. I didn't like Richard's apparent death. It seemed as though the producers needed a way to kill him and took the easy way out and let Smokey do it. A character like Richard who was very instrumental in anything island related should have gone out in a better way. I don't think Richard is immortal just ageless and so he can die by anyone else's hand, just not his. Poor Ben. Seemingly redeemed but yes I agree with the poster who stated that that ended once he got back to the cabins and was reminded of Alex's death and then Widmore showing up. Although, it is unclear at this time whether or not he is with or against Flocke. He only sided with Flocke because of his chance to get rid of Widmore. Will he betray Flocke and protect Jack and the others when the time comes? I liked the scene between Danielle (enjoyed seeing her again) and Ben in the kitchen when he got teary after Danielle told him that he was like a father to Alex. And what the heck is flash sideways Desmond up to? How does he know what to do? Enjoyed seeing Ana Lucia and her comment "Do I know you, tubby?" Four more days and it will be all over for good... not looking forward to it. A Gift from Agman
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 03:39 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-19-10 AT 09:04 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON 05-19-10 AT 04:13 PM (EST) I think Flash Sideways = Fail Safe timeline. (island is sunk) I am hoping that all in the sideways "have to go back" except those such as Ana Lucia who are not ready to yet. Ben gave Miles the walkie talkie so he can listen in on MIB and him. Was it Miles or Claire who got Desmond out of the well? I do think that MIB could "get off" the island somehow through sideways Locke and that Jack might possibly have to "kill" Locke during surgery. They both have to "let go". So is the "rule"(and I think all these rules are bogus and there are none, possibly "long con") don't let him talk to you invalid? It just makes you useless? Rules are red herrings? Because MIB told Richard to not let Jacob talk to you so you can kill him but Ben talked to Jacob and was able to kill him. Ben was able to kill Widmore also. I think Richard is alive. He just got pushed out of bounds for a time. Red flowers around Jacob! Red life jackets washing up on shore!
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 10:43 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.16: "What They Died For"" |
No need to be sarcastic. It's just a very very common flower, red ginger. I'm looking at one outside my window right now. >>> WTF? Turtle? The one on the beach in Across the Sea. Fans were coming up with all sorts of reasons why it was mythological, why it was in one shot and then disappeared, and so forth. Obsessing about the tortoise. Enough so that the Final Podcast dealt with "what is the significance of the tortoise on the beach? Cuse explained that it had crawled out of the water and they aren't allowed to touch or move them, and that is the only reason it was in the scene. I think it's the same with the red flowers. They are shooting at Kualoa Ranch and there happens to be red ginger growing. If it meant anything they would doubtless stick the flowers in a big painting and show it in the background, to be sure that we get the symbolism. I said turtle because it is a sea turtle, not a tortoise, which I know not because I know everything but because I live around them. They are an endangered species. There are no tortoises in Hawai'i. Not that it matters to you or to the writers.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-19-10, 08:31 PM (EST)
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19. "Thoughts" |
The first 4 seasons or so were dedicated to the slow transformation of Jack from Man of Science to Man of Faith. It was accompanied by Locke’s sudden and tragic loss of faith which was followed by his fateful attempts to repair what he had done. Then we had Locke’s sudden transformation into the smoke monster. The theme of Season 6 has been Jack’s slow transformation into Jacob’s heir. Jacob knew he was ready.With Jacob’s confirmation that the ultimate goal of the game is to protect the light from Smokey, I’m almost satisfied that we have sufficient guidelines to understand the island. I still think that the Smoke monster is a representation of Chaos and I thought of something that reinforces that: Remember how we had a strange scene of a butterfly floating around the Black Rock before Smokey appeared to Richard? The butterfly effect is part of Chaos theory so it could have been a hint. The writers will probably give us a bit more about the island but the real mystery now is how will Jack win the game? How will he kill Smokey and get everyone off the island? Strangely, I had always only been concerned about the mysteries of the island, now a burning question is what is Desmond up to? - He lied to Jack about retrieving his father’s coffin. - He beats up Ben to make him remember. - He says that he wants John to let go which makes John accept the surgery. - He arranges for Kate and Sayid to escape so they can attend the concert where almost everyone else will be. Another strange thing is that Jacob’s best candidates over the years, Ben, John and Jack would all have been crossed off the cave’s walls because they are happy in Sideways world. John is getting married while Ben looked happy with Danielle and Alex. More importantly, Jack is a dad which was enough to cross out Kate. Even Sawyer isn’t troubled as much about his past. Jin and Sun have freed themselves from Sun’s father. Is that part of Smokey’s loophole? It seems Jacob would have to choose between Kate and Sayid only, two names that were crossed off on the island. I think Desmond has to make them want to go to the island. Questions and ramblings… Have all the dead people Miles “sensed” been dead only in one world? When he felt Alex’s presence, could he have been sensing her presence in Sideways world? As for Richard, I guess we now have proof that Smokey's offer doesn’t stand anymore! So, Widemore wasn’t working with Smokey. I guess it means Smokey knew Widemore well enough to anticipate he would put explosives in the plane. Locke told Ben he could have the island to himself after he leaves. Ben had no problem selling out Widemore or killing him despite the previous rules. Then Locke said he wanted to use Desmond to destroy the island. What will Ben think about inheriting a destroyed island? Could Jack find a loophole and use Ben to kill Smokey? It would have symmetry.
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