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"Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
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XXL Survivor 131 desperate attention whore postings
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05-14-08, 11:23 AM (EST)
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"Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
Todd Herzog

1. He gives away a hidden immunity idol to James, even though he gave James all the info he needed to get the other one (which James did). Major blunder, but he was lucky and got away with it.

2. Even when James was not expecting it, he wants to vote off the non-threat Jean-Robert first. A big mistake he got away with as James inexplicably did not start using his TWO immunity idols in subsequent TCs.

3. He didn't even want to vote James out later, but Amanda had to convince him to do it.

But he was good at making speeches at IC, basically his only strong point since he was a weak challenge performer too. However, both this board and Todd himself view Todd as some kind of strategic genius on the level with a Rich Hatch, Yul, or Rob Mariano. I don't even think the guy is as smart as Ozzy, Colby, Sandra, or Vecepia. He won by sheer luck.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... michel 05-14-08 1
   RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... Max Headroom 05-14-08 2
       RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... cambo 05-27-08 14
           RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... Wacko Jacko 05-27-08 15
   RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... XXL Survivor 05-14-08 3
       Todd was a good Strategist michel 05-14-08 4
           RE: Todd was a good Strategist dreamerbeliever 05-19-08 9
 RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... dabo 05-15-08 5
   RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... iltarion 05-15-08 6
       RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... michel 05-15-08 7
 RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... miracle1969mets 05-18-08 8
   RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... michel 05-19-08 10
       RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... garcor 05-22-08 11
           RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... michel 05-23-08 12
               RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... Wacko Jacko 05-27-08 13
                   RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... XXL Survivor 05-27-08 16
               RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... garcor 05-30-08 17
                   RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... michel 05-30-08 18
                       RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... garcor 06-02-08 19
 RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... miracle1969mets 06-09-08 20
 RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... wiseguy182 10-20-08 21
   RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... michel 10-20-08 22
       RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) C... wiseguy182 10-21-08 23

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-14-08, 12:01 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
I have to disagree in the most emphatic way. Todd had much more control than what you saw. Your three interpretations of events don't correspond to what happened:

1- They had no way of being sure the Zhan Hu idol was in the same place and, more importantly, they didn't know if Jaime had already found it. Once James got back with the 2 idols, they agreed to share them. Since James kept them, the show was edited as if he was hoarding them but it wasn't exactly the case. In fact, on the night of James' elimination, Todd asked for one idol because he had a feeling things were turning against him. James went to get the idol but ran into Erik and started screaming at the guy. Todd told James that he was convinced that everything would be alright, that he didn't need the idol after all.

2- If they had voted out James then they would have lost Courtney and Frosti who would have gone to PG and Erik to vote out JR, leaving Todd and Amanda in the minority. They had to get rid of JR first to appease Courtney.

3- Sorry, but he never hesitated once everyone agreed on voting out James. His only concern was that it would be his neck on the line, not Amanda's.

Todd controlled the game and needed a lot less luck than Brian, who needed Sook Jai to first agree to throw a challenge and then needed their complete meltdown and the fake merge to secure his numbers. Yul had the good luck of having the most powerful idol ever. He never faced a jury vote where he could have been eliminated. The bottle twist, the late merge and the F3 twist also were great help. Hatch had the luck of playing against 15 players who didn't know the game.

Still Vee and Sandra are the luckiest survivors ever. Vee controlled only the F4 vote and that was her biggest mistake. If Neleh had been voted out, Vee couldn't have won. Sandra would have lost if you had let her decide every vote between F10 and F4.


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Max Headroom 10028 desperate attention whore postings
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05-14-08, 12:54 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
I agree, Vee and Sandra also jumped out at me as the luckiest winners. And I think Jenna Morasca is by far the most overrated winner.

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cambo 286 desperate attention whore postings
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05-27-08, 11:56 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
I don't remember too much of the past seasons, but wasn't Jenna the one who was begging and crying to be voted off after her 'boytoy' got voted off?
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Wacko Jacko 2434 desperate attention whore postings
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05-27-08, 02:28 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
LAST EDITED ON 05-27-08 AT 03:19 PM (EST)


Not sure she had a boytoy, all she did was lay around camp and do no work. She thought showing off her body was all she needed in order to win the game. She was famous for taking off all her clothes for some chocolate.......yep this person actually won the game. LOL.

Actually now that I think about it she wanted to quit when her partner chocalate-stripper buddy (Heidi) was voted out. She was upset because the guys were finally onto her. But (probably because Jeff/producers talked her out of quiting) she got lucky and won the last two immunity awards.

She won against Matt who was what really defined Survivor...... Great worker around the camp and winner of immunity challenges. But he was viewed as being pyscho machette guy and not smart strategically.

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XXL Survivor 131 desperate attention whore postings
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05-14-08, 03:18 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
Michel: While I cannot prove that Todd was luckier than the other winners like Sandra as it is subjective, I don't quite buy into your defenses of Todd.

1. If this was editing, how do you know? Do you have access to CBS footage not shown? As far as Todd wanting James to give him back one of the idols, I remember that but (at least as far as TV coverage went) James never even considered it. As far as he was concerned, it was not part of their original deal which it technically wasn't. So Todd really left himself exposed there.

2. I realize Courtney didn't like JR, but she wasn't that tight with James either. From what I recall, the reason Todd wanted JR gone was his jealousy that JR would take credit for the James blindside. More a case of Todd's arrogance getting in the way than Courtney or Frosti who would have happily voted off James then.

3. Sorry, but he was indeed very hesistent. Amanda had to convince him. To his credit, he eventually agreed with Amanda and yes there was a risk to him involved so I'm not saying it was a no-brainer, but to say "he never hesitated once" is simply not accurate.


Jenna Morasco though was the least "deserving" winner as she wanted to quit, gave away an immunity idol, etc. It still amazes me that she beat Matt (who didn't seem like that bad of a guy) by such a lobsided margin.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-14-08, 09:20 PM (EST)
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4. "Todd was a good Strategist"
LAST EDITED ON 05-14-08 AT 09:34 PM (EST)


It's not my defense of him, it's what Todd said happened and no one has ever contradicted him:

http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/exclusive-survivor-china-champion-todd-herzog-talks-strategy-6280.php

Reality TV World: What was your reasoning behind giving the Hidden Immunity Idol to James and then telling him where the other Hidden Immunity Idol was at the Zhan Hu camp?

Todd: I was so worried that Zhan Hu was going to throw the next challenge again; that we were going to go into a merge five/five; and that we would literally get screwed. So in my thinking, I said, "If I give this to James as insurance..." Because we didn't know the idol would be the same at Zhan Hu . I said, "You go see if the idols -- if it is -- we're going to show these idols."

He agreed to it. We agreed to show the idols... He even told me when we got back, "These are OUR idols if we need them." So I was never worried. Then it got to the point where we were in the Top 7, and he wasn't handing me one! He just kept saying, "Yeah we're sharing. We're sharing." But he wasn't giving it to me so he just had to go.

Reality TV World: Both Jean-Robert and Amanda had the idea to blind-side James. Why was it that when Jean-Robert proposed it you blind-sided him but when Amanda suggested it the plan was put into motion and James was booted?

Todd: One reason I decided to take care of Jean-Robert when I did is because Courtney was having a problem trusting us all -- and we needed her so badly to stay tight with us -- we had to do a move that she wanted . So I said, "Let's get rid of Jean-Robert so she can see I was on her side."

Reality TV World: What do you think happened there? (Note: James not playing an idol) What do you think was going through his (James) head?

Todd: Right before Tribal Council, I approached (James) and said, "Look, they're going to vote for me. I need the idol tonight!" he said, "Okay, I'm going to go get it for you." Instead, he yelled at Erik and said, "Erik! I don't know what you're thinking -- what you're putting in this boy's mind -- but I'm voting with him tonight!" So I went back to James and I said, "You keep the idol because I want you to trust me." That's when I put the final nail in his coffin. I wanted him to feel super-confident that he wasn't going home that night./


As far as Sandra is concerned, I don't think it is that subjective because, according to her voting pattern, if somehow all votes had gone as she wanted, she would have been in the Final 4 with Rupert, Christa and Darrah. Even if she can decide that F4 vote, she'd still wind up facing someone that she couldn't beat in the end. It wasn't only "anyone but me" getting voted out that was her lucky break but "Anyone but me" deciding who to go!!!

Lill was the only player Sandra could beat with any certainty but Sandra voted twice to eliminate Lil. It was even reported that, when Fairplay was alone with his friend on reward, Sandra spent most of the time yelling at Lil for voting out Rupert, even kicking sand at her. She was incredibly lucky that Lil let that go and chose her in the end!

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dreamerbeliever 3377 desperate attention whore postings
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05-19-08, 00:35 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Todd was a good Strategist"
Sandra spent most of the time yelling at Lil for voting out Rupert, even kicking sand at her.

lol I think I like Sandra even more now.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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05-15-08, 01:59 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
For whatever reason, the other players gravitated to Todd and listened to whatever he had to say. He ran with it, they let him, it worked out for him.

So, I don't agree that he's overrated, he took advantage of the situation and worked it. What else do you expect them to do?

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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05-15-08, 02:39 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
I completely agree that Todd is no where close to the most lucky or overrated champs. He was the best player his season, except for Amanda, who lost it in FTC.
I agree on Michel on nearly every point.
Except he must be joking to suggest Brian was luckier than Todd. I would say Brian needed the least luck. Tom needed the 2nd least luck and Yul the 3rd.
Brian got lucky because Sook Jai self-destructed? Sure. Except Sook Jai still has the majority if Brian doesn't practically single-handedly beat them at F10. Sook Jai may have made it easier for him, sure, but since Brian had a lot to do with his tribe getting the majority, you can hardly say it was luck. See, that is the difference between someone who can win challenges versus someone who can't. If you can't, then you have to be luckier. Was it because of Todd that Fei Long had the majority? Or was it because of Aaron and James? I think you can say that Todd was dang lucky to have Aaron and James on his tribe or he would have ended up in the minority and went no where, just like Parvati in Cook Islands. You can tout social play all you want, but it all goes to hell if your tribe loses too many challenges and you end up getting pagonged. Chris and Danni just about learned this during their seasons, except a late move by someone else saved them both.
I used to consider Danni and Chris to be among the luckiest winners ever, considering without Twila and Scout and Rafe and Steph making their move, they are toast. But they both won the final IC. Anyone who won the final IC relied less on luck than someone who didn't win it and thus had to rely on the other person picking them to even make the Finals.
I agree that the luckiest winners ever were Sandra and Vecepia. The most overrated is probably Hatch because the most overrated has to be someone who is highly rated; therefore, it can't be someone like Sandra or Vecepia or Jenna, etc. I think the fact that Borneo and Hatch were first makes them both overrated, naturally.

>

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-15-08, 08:07 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
LAST EDITED ON 05-15-08 AT 08:09 AM (EST)

>"Except Sook Jai still has the majority if Brian doesn't practically single-handedly beat them at F10."

F10 was jail break and I remember CG winning as a team. Brian did well but I'm not sure he won single-handedly.

Admitting he did, to get that majority CG benefitted from 2 of the worse team performances in Survivor history by a tribe who wanted to win:

F11: Thai 21 is a game that should have been won with the first flag picked. No one figured it out before they were down to 6 flags! That is astonishingly pathethic.

F9 - Ken and Penny lasted exactly 9 SECONDS under water, while Erin lasted 15 seconds leaving Jake alone to battle it out with Brian who had a 20 seconds cushion.

Brian was lucky also not to get a tribal switch.

Todd may not have been the biggest contributor in challenges but the most physical team often falls apart in Survivor: Ulong looked very impressive physically compared to Koror. So did Sook Jai, Mogo Mogo and Rarotonga. They didn't win because they never gelled as a team. James at one point said it was strange how Fei Long came together. We saw how they came together: Aaron was their leader and that was due to Todd's suggestion that they needed a general.

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miracle1969mets 183 desperate attention whore postings
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05-18-08, 10:45 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
LAST EDITED ON 05-19-08 AT 12:21 PM (EST)

I'll make my list at Top 5 and only Luckiest and not overrated. Some are the one key move to swing momentum of the game that he or she had little control of.

1) Sandra - she basically won cause of the outcast twist, faced an outcast in F2, and had an emotional Lil boot Jon in F3. She also would have been booted F5 had Burton lied to Lil.

2) Chris - Chris played well, but the reason the women saved him was pure luck. The loved one's visit happened to come when he was last man left, the loved ones happened to be involved in the IC, and the women didn't want Chris's fiance to be responsible for Chris losing.

3) Tina - Not to take anything away from Tina's game, but simply put, Mike doesn't get injured, she's never final 2. Ogakor finding out Jeff had a vote and Colby taking her to final 2.

4) Vecepia - She made mostly right moves when needed to late in the game. But, the purple rock of death, the rotu 4 giving the game away, and Sean and not her being the F5 target helped her greatly.

5) Aras - Aras's luck is largely due to the hidden immunity idol. Basically he got lucky that Terry never lost immunity till F4 when he won it, Bruce getting medivaced helped him too. Also basically trading Melinda for Bruce in Ep 2 was a lucky advantage for Casaya.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-19-08, 12:53 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
LAST EDITED ON 05-19-08 AT 01:10 PM (EST)


First, all winners needed luck to win. Such is the nature of the game. By definition, I attribute more luck to winners who benefitted from twists by the producers. Those are random by nature and can rarely be planned for.


>1) Sandra - Agreed, she was very lucky but it illustrates one difficulty in talking about luck factors. Her unluckiest break happened when Rupert was voted off, putting her in the minority. At the same time, it was her luckiest break because she was going to F4 with Rupert and had no real plan of voting him out. Wanting to vote out Outcast goat "par excellence" Lil but still getting to face Lil in the F2 shows Sandra's luck.


>2) Chris -

Chris doesn't belong on this list. The family visit played a very minor role. What saved Chris was the deals he had made with Julie and Twila. Julie felt guilty so she told him Eliza was going. Twila trusted him enough to go with him rather than the certain F4 with Ami. Chris was lucky but he made a lot of his own luck.

>3) Tina -

I strongly disagree here. First, Ogakor won Episode #5 immunity so no one knows if they lose the 6th one, especially since Kucha had sat Rodger during the reward and had to play him in the IC. Also, even if they looked united, Kucha was a tribe divided. Tina may have infiltrated the Mike - Lis - Rodger faction.

It wasn't Ogakor finding out about Jeff's vote it was Tina getting Kimmi to talk. I call that foresight and knowing the game and your opponents, not luck.

Tina and Colby were a pair from the start. The only reason Colby kept Keith over Mitchell in episode #4 was because Tina promised him that Keith wouldn't be given a chance to win. Colby would have felt like a bastard to take Keith after insisting he couldn't be taken. Tina knew Colby didn't want to be seen as a bastard.

>4) Vecepia - Agreed but her luckiest factor was in voting Neleh at F4 and Paschal's loyalty to Neleh. If he agrees to break the dead-lock Vee winds up in the F3 with 2 unbeatable opponents.


>5) Aras -

Got to disagree here also. Having your most fierce opponent have such a huge advantage as the idol is hardly a luck factor. Take the idol away and Aras is the leader of the majority alliance, not a bad place to be. Also, in most challenges, Aras was second to Terry anyway so if Terry lost, Aras could have flushed it while being safe.

Bruce being medevaced helped Aras but such is the nature of the game. The question though is: Could Danielle have made another powerplay to save Bruce at F7? Not sure about that. Bruce may have simply been voted off.

As far as Bruce for Melinda, do you think it was fairer for LaMina to start off with 4 guys to Casaya's 3? Especially when your first round draft pick was Terry and Casaya matched him with Danielle? Getting Bruce evened up the teams at 7 with 4 men on each side. That was a fair fight and Casaya won, in great part because of Aras' leadership.

As I said, luck factors are impossible to quantify. Maybe Parvati won because Fairplay woke up with a toothache.

I only see 3 winners to put in the lucky category because they benefitted from game twists. All the others could be said to have balanced out good luck and bad luck.

Besides Sandra and Vee, the other winner I'd put on this list is Yul. Yul had the strongest original tribe, guaranteeing him 6 days of security to start the game. Worse, Puka had been given an easy first boot in Cao Boi in case of disaster and putting Becky on Yul's team wasn't simply casting, it was almost matchmaking! And so was having Brad!!

In episode #2, Yul was given a chance to find the most powerful idol ever.

The mutiny could be seen as a bad luck factor but most have said that Candice's move would have been more effective at the merge. Maybe Yul was lucky she could mutiny. For one thing, it simplified his strategy. No more worries of booting Ozzy or when to vote out Jonathan. It was win challenges or go home.

Then, we had the bottle twist. When a team is down 4-7 at the end of the tribal part of the game, it doesn't matter if a challenge loss costs them 1 or 2 players. If they had lost that challenge, they were dead anyway. For Raro, the bottle twist changed everything. What was worse is that they weren't even allowed to plan for it. Had they known that the rules were changed, they may have kept their best players for immunity. As is, they had no reason to play for immunity... until they opened that bottle.

At the merge, Yul was smart but also very lucky that Jonathan was willing to throw his game away and that Raro thought Adam had the idol. At least, this was game luck, not producer created. Or was it? Who knows if a confessional question made Jonathan realize he'd be seen as racist if he continued with an all-white F4?

Then the F3 twist killed everyone's strategy except for Yul. Ozzy had a good reason to decline Adam's offer to flush the idol. It was easier for Ozzy to wait the F3 challenge and do to Yul what Danielle had done to Terry. But geez, there was no F3 challenge. Yul had reserved seating to face the jury.

The final luck factor was incredible when you think about it: Yul offered Becky his idol at F4. Why didn't Becky take the idol, turn around and go to Ozzy and Sundra to eliminate Yul? Why? Because Cook Islands wasn't a season to play Survivor but a season to "Represent".

If you want 5 lucky winners, Ethan and Amber would be my choices. Ethan, because Samburu was more interested in settling old scores at F8 rather than winning the game and the producer mistake at F4 immunity. Amber because she was saved by the pre-game alliance of Tom - Lex - Kathy and Rob.


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garcor 432 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-08, 10:43 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
Disagree that Amber was lucky. Wasn't she only in danger due to another producer created twist. Think she played a strong game; competed well in challenges against the other women; gave Rob the best extra incentive any player has ever had to bust his a** as well as the most sure ally; leaving him feeling both secure and motivated.

And don't see Yul as at all lucky. Don't think Becky not turning on Yul had anything to do with it being a season to "represent." For one season everyone was a minority. And Aitu managed to win because they managed to continually win IC's, primarily because of Ozzy, and Yul. Figure Yul had a lot to do with the fact his tribe was the strongest original tribe from the start. As for Jonathan, he was not going to get near final two or three regardless of which tribe he was on, so he wasn't throwing his game away. If anyone did, it was Candace when she mutinied. She might have had a strong shot at final three with Yul/Becky if she hadn't switched to be with Adam.

Think Chris was lucky because given his bad challenge performance and strategizing, he had no business still being around at final seven. And given the fact he was a more active player, Ami's alliance would have been better keeping Chad or Sarge around rather than Chris.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-23-08, 01:01 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
"Figure Yul had a lot to do with the fact his tribe was the strongest original tribe from the start."

And it had nothing to do with the fact that 2 tribes had 3 men while the others only had 2? Hiki was built to lose.
Puka's main advantage was their overall agility over "Heavy Mental" Billy and the Aitu women since both ICs were races. It didn't really matter since 3 teams had immunity. Casting made sure Yul wouldn't go to TC early.

"...throwing his game away. If anyone did, it was Candace when she mutinied. She might have had a strong shot at final three with Yul/Becky if she hadn't switched to be with Adam."

So you agree with me that the mutiny option was lucky for Yul! Candice was one of the only player who knew Survivor and would have had plenty of votes on the jury. Twists took her out of the game, not Yul.

After Micronesia, we'll be able to say a player "Pulled an Erik" if anyone is stupid enough to give away immunity again. The only thing preventing us from saying Erik "Pulled a Yul" instead was because Becky didn't want to take the idol away and have a shot at the win. That's why I'm saying it was a season to "represent your community" rather than Outwit, Outplay, Outlast, ie. play Survivor.

(Actually, it should be "Pulling a Jenna" but Rob saved her from that disgrace!)

And you haven't addressed the 3 biggest luck factors for Yul: The bottle twist, the all powerful idol and the F3 twist, otherwise known as Yul's reserved seating in front of the jury. Two unprecedented twists and the idol, that's a lot of luck that all went Yul's way!

I'm not saying Yul was a bad player, I'm saying I wish we would have seen him play Survivor. Answer these: Which player never had to fear for his personal safety at a single Tribal Council? Why were the idol rules changed before Fiji?


If you insist on discussing Chris over Amber: Chris played hard, Amber won A$$ because her a$$ was to Rob's liking. Who is the lucky one?

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05-27-08, 09:50 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
WOW!

How the heck do you people remember all these details from seasons going back years. Some of the names mentioned I don't even recall. Adam???????

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XXL Survivor 131 desperate attention whore postings
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05-27-08, 11:58 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
I believe Adam was the guy in the white people's alliance of him, Parvati, and Candace, the ones who didn't like Jonathan in the Yul vs. Ozzy season.
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05-30-08, 07:13 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
Could also say Rob was lucky to have Amber. Could he have found as trustworthy an ally in Alicia or Jenna or have spent half the game wondering when his closest ally was going to make a move to get rid of him.

Both Amber and Chris played hard, but for much of the game Amber played better (though more quietly - might want a separate thread on the differences between the way successful women have played vs. the way successful men have played). Chris hurt his own tribe by pushing a strategy (vote out the young guys) that made it hard for his tribe to win challenges, leaving him dependent upon disaffected members of the dominant tribe to save him.

As for Candace, I thought her a likely final three choice because she would have been seen as less of a threat than Ozzy, not because she was likely to out argue Yul at a final TC. Her decision to mutiny to spend time with Adam sure makes it sound like she wasn't much of a threat; unless part of the reason she switched tribes was because she knew she'd never beat Yul and thought she could do better against Adam or Nate in final TC.

Don't know what you mean about Cook Islands being a season to "represent your community" rather than to play to win. Sounds like you're saying Becky was more interested in promoting a fellow South Korean's chances of winning than of winning herself? Do you know that? Seems more likely she knew her best chance of going far was to stick with Yul.

Interesting that the two seasons when the producers produced casts with equal numbers of minority players the winners were a Korean and an African American. Might argue that the type of trust (and comfort level) needed to make close alliances with people is most likely to develop between people of similar backgrounds. Would seem then that minority players have been at a disadvantage in most seasons (for whatever reason - lack of applicants?) which brings us back to original question of this thread.

Perhaps Todd is underrated, not overrated as a player? As a skinny, gay male not much better than competent at challenges, a less shrewd player could well have been one of the first players voted off.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-30-08, 01:05 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
>"Chris hurt his own
>tribe by pushing a strategy
>(vote out the young guys)
>that made it hard for
>his tribe to win challenges"

This is repeated by every Chris basher but they forget 4 key facts:
1- Those 4 young, strong guys made an alliance from the start and targeted Chris. He fought back.

2- With the tribes divided by gender, the challenges didn't NEED physical strength. They lost challenges even with John P and Brady. They weren't difference makers.

3- Chris knew a switch was likely coming soon so he figured it would be better to have a level playing field. Imagine a switch where he would have been in a tribe with mostly women and the only man with him was Brady. Who would the women choose to keep? Have you seen Brady?!!

4- Chris knew Julie was an outsider in Yasur and Twila was honest when she said she felt better with the guys. Chris had very good reasons to think he had reached the merge with a majority and that Ami, Leann and Eliza would be the first 3 boots. At the merge, Ami did a masterful job to get Julie back and Twila got cold feet, screwing Chris. But his deals with them is what gave him the opportunity to get back in charge.

>"As for Candace...
>Her decision to
>mutiny to spend time with
>Adam sure makes it sound
>like she wasn't much of
>a threat; unless part of
>the reason she switched tribes
>was because she knew she'd
>never beat Yul and thought
>she could do better against
>Adam or Nate in final
>TC."

The beauty of editing! With Candice losing, the editors didn't want to distract from their beautiful Aitu4 underdog story so they painted Candice as a "Dumb, lovesick Player" when, in reality, she was one of the few players in the Cooks who knew Survivor. Remember that Nathan had been kidnapped by Aitu. Candice and Sundra had spent time talking to him, learning that Raro didn't have a true leader but that Adam, Parvati and Nathan were in charge. Candice knew "Adumb" wasn't a strategist so she'd get more input in Raro than in Aitu where Yul was unbeatable. With the history of the Cooks, mutiny on the Bounty, the players had been talking of a possible Mutiny twist. Candice expected Sundra to mutiny with her, not Jonathan! The post game interviews confirmed this.


>"Don't know what you mean about
>Cook Islands being a season
>to "represent your community" rather
>than to play to win."

Cecilia didn't want to throw a challenge, not because it was bad strategy but because it would reflect poorly on the Hispanic community. Stephannie, Rebecca and Sundra kept saying they wanted to represent. Becky and Yul were embarrassed by Cao Boi's ethnic jokes. Almost every player said that, when they heard of the opening theme, they were worried about the stereotypes. Certainly, Becky would have liked to win but not to the point of back-stabbing Yul. At F7, a key moment if you are going to flip the game, Yul even counted his jury votes in front of her and she did nothing!! It got to a point that the players figured having such a diplomatic man as Yul win was a good outcome for the season. Sundra even said that Yul was almost like Jesus!!


>"Interesting that the two seasons when
>the producers produced casts with
>equal numbers of minority players
>the winners were a Korean
>and an African American."

Fiji was completely different from the Cooks in how it played out. In Fiji's opening, the 19 players spent time together on the same beach. Earl assembled the other 4 African-Americans on that first night and made an alliance with them. The Hispanics did the same except the weak Lisi didn't trust the strong, leader-type Lilliana. The editing took great care in hiding those racial alliances. At the reunion, when Dreamz mentioned his original 5 person alliance, Jeff quickly changed the subject.

Earl won because he was able to create many alliances, losing quite a few allies along the way, but it was that original alliance that was key to his win.


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06-02-08, 11:52 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
LAST EDITED ON 06-03-08 AT 06:04 AM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 06-03-08 AT 06:03AM (EST)

Sounds like if you are a nice guy with some leadership ability, can strategize and compete in challenges you are going to be difficult to beat in any season. Like Tom (who dominated play in his season) or even Brian (who seemed to be perceived as a nice guy by tribesmates). To me that's not luck; it's a sign that Yul applied for the right reality TV show and the casting people got that pick right. And it doesn't sound like he didn't have to play Survivor; instead he played it so well that it was difficult for other players to get anything going against him; a smart player chose to switch teams rather than try to dislodge him. (Personally I prefer to see players try to take out the person in charge; as with fans vs. faves. But I credit someone who plays so well they manage to stay in control throughout.)


Not sure where your point about Earl's initial alliance on Fiji leaves us. Could Earl (accepted as a given that he was a good player) have ended up leading a winning alliance in a season with few minorities? Should every season be ethnically balanced or should it not be a factor in choosing players; just choose the best players?

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06-09-08, 12:59 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
Simple fact: No matter how good a player was, every player that made it to final 5,4,3,2, or won had luck play a factor, including Rich and the Tagi alliance in Borneo. (In my earlier post, I chose 3 non-producer luck factors that greatly changed the game, not taking anything away from the beneficiaries.

Overrated is a topic for discussion

Example: Was Brian Heidek playing one of the best games ever, like I feel, or was his game overrated and it was a factor of no one else in Thailand really playing the game.
Some argue Todd played a sloppy game, but was benefited by barely anyone else really playing, making him overrated.
I feel with almost every winner, you can argue either case.

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10-20-08, 06:37 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
I can only comment on the seasons I've seen, which were 1,2,3, 8 and part of 7

Richard Hatch: overrated. he only looks like a master of the game because he invented the alliance. Alliances would have eventually been invented had he not been a contestant, it may have taken a little longer, but someone would have thought of it. He only looks like such a master because he was playing with 15 people that had no idea what was going on. possible exception Joel,

Tina Wesson: overrated. Episode 2 had Tina looking like an absolute moron. Should have been disqualified from the game for rifling through Kel's bag, finding no jerky, and still having the gall to vote him out anyways. It was also during this episode that she said she should be the one to be voted out. (great strategy, rolls eyes). Votes Kel off all the while keeping weaker members like Maralyn and Mitchell. Pre-merge, you should always vote off the weakest members, no exceptions. This was a rule of mine that was abused to death in all-stars, which is why Lex's team was quickly Pagong'ed. Tina eventually wised up though, and reversed course.

Ethan Zohn: way, way overrated. Can anyone name any great strategy he had? Any classic Ethan lines? Any memorable moments? Anything remotely interesting about the man? I can't. Basically a lucky recipient of the 'right alliance at the right time', and Kim J pulling a Colby at the last minute. The Boran alliance wasn't anything particularly great, it was just 3 random people striking up an alliance on a whim. It was also struck me as an "old boys club alliance", and it should be noted that Frank essentially joined in at the final vote, congratulating Ethan for making it to the end and not Kim. Um, excuse me? They both made it to the end, why didn't he congratulate Kim? And it's much harder for a 57 year old woman to make it there than a 20 something male athlete. Ethan won because his of the "old boys club alliance" and Theresa having some weird obsession with him. And Kelly voting at random. His all stars appearance was pathetic. No strategy there either, except to whine and cry when he realized he was a goner.

Sandra/Amber: overrated. have a lot in common. Their 'strategy' wasn't really a strategy in the sense that it didn't stem from creative or intelligent thought. yet it worked.

In Sandra's case, from what I've seen, she exhibited no knowledge of the game. Her 'strategy' consisted solely of 'I'll vote for whoever just as long as it isn't me.' But there's a hidden brilliance to this: it made her appear as such a non-threat, that it carried her all the way to the finals. Plus, parading around your extra vote status is actually smart because it lets everyone know you have an extra vote when you need it. And it's always good to have an insurance marker (high rollers reference).

Amber: overrated. her strategy in all-stars was the same as Australia, be someone else's lapdog. Only in this case it worked, because she was tied to the dominant force in the game, and people decided to take their frustrations out on Rob in the final vote even though he was the one that was doing all the work.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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10-20-08, 08:09 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
They can't be all overrated now, can they?!

Hatch: Remember that his genius wasn't coming up with the alliance but rather making it with people he could beat in the end AND making it stick to the end. It wasn't that no one thought of alliances; Joel, Gretchen and Greg all talked about alliances and voting together. It was that alliances were considered wrong. As Colleen said, it didn't lead to the most deserving player winning. But that isn't Survivor. Hatch had to make sure his Tagi mates understood this. Rudy was very hesitant to join in and later Kelly wanted out. Hatch had to be convincing to make it to the end.

Tina: Sorry, but Kel's vote was an alliance decision and a more important rule than voting out the weak is that you don't make waves when the first vote isn't you. (See Nicole in Pearl Island) Do you know how episode #4 of Outback played out? You can't judge Tina's game if you didn't read the interviews players gave back then. The edit was all about making Tina look like the Good Southern Mom. They wanted to change the public's opinion that good guys can't win Survivor. To those who read the interviews, she was known as "Benedict Tina"!!! Even after 17 season, I rate Tina in my top 5 all time as winner.

Ethan was lucky, granted but he played the assistant coach strategy very well.

Sandra played in one of the most volatile seasons ever so just surviving was a challenge in itself. Lucky, she certainly was because she probably doesn't win if her single vote was the one to decide every vote between F10 and F4! Still, she understood and manipulated Lill and Fairplay like no one else.

Amber isn't over rated, most rate her at the bottom of their list of winners.

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wiseguy182 6 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-08, 01:01 AM (EST)
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23. "RE: Luckiest (and most overrated) Champ ever"
well yeah, they can all be overrated.

Rich: The Tagi alliance wasn't Rich's first attempt at one. He tried one before, earlier in the game, and they all just kind of pointed and laughed. Rudy joined in because he didn't have much of a choice (3 votes and then 2), he realized he would probably be a goner if he didn't join in (was respected but not well liked in camp, ate more than his share of food, immunity challenge liability, etc.)

Tina: overall, I think Tina was a good player, but as I said, her performance in episode 2 is downright pitiful (rifling through Kel's bag, finding no jerky, voting him out anyways, saying she should be the one voted off, voting off a stronger member) I think Tina reversed course after this episode

Amber: I don't how she's rated, but whatever it is, it's overrated.

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