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"Remember when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues?"
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dangerkitty 1913 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-01, 07:43 PM (EST)
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"Remember when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues?"
This thought occurred to me a couple of days ago, and I found an article that sheds an even more troubling light on it. Recall that back in March, there was outrage when the Taliban destroyed many many Buddhist statues etc. in Afghanistan. The following articles gives the basic story, and I was struck in particular by the lines I have bolded.
http://www.indiaabroadonline.com/theworld/march2001/outrage.shtml

Outrage as Taliban destroys its own heritage
(India Abroad News Service)
(File photo: AP)

NEW DELHI -- In a move that has shocked and outraged the global community, the ruling Taliban militia in Afghanistan last week began destroying a large number of Buddhist statues associated with the country's pre-Islamic past.

The statues targeted by the Taliban included two magnificent 2,000-year-old "standing Buddhas," carved out of a solid cliff in the Bamiyan province in Central Afghanistan, apart from hundreds of other statues and artifacts in museums in Kabul, Ghazni and Herat.

The Buddha statues, measuring 175 feet and 120 feet, respectively, were the tallest of their kind in the world. News reports, quoting senior members in the Taliban government, including Qudratullah Jamal, the information and culture minister, stated that large portions of these two statues had been destroyed by the evening of March 3, using gunpowder, as well as a wide range of weapons like mortars and cannons.

The demolition spree followed a Feb. 26 order by the supreme leader of the Taliban, Mullah Mohammad Omar, calling for the destruction of the statues on the ground that they encouraged idol worship, which is disallowed by Islam.

The development triggered a sense of outrage across the world, not only in Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka and Thailand, but in most nations in Europe, North Americam, Southeast Asia and Africa. Even the Taliban's closest ally, Pakistan, expressed shock, even as the militia rejected a last-minute appeal by Unesco, the cultural arm of the United Nations, and went ahead with the wanton destruction.

In New Delhi, Parliament condemned the "barbarism and anticivilizational" intent of the Taliban in destroying the Buddha statues and Buddhist shrines in the country. Moving a resolution on March 2, Lok Sabha Speaker G.M.C. Balayogi said that at a time "when all civilizations are coming together through dialogue and shared values, we are shocked by the Taliban's announcement of intended acts of religious fundamentalism and terrorism against human culture and civilization."

The Indian government also offered to take in the artifacts for preservation and safekeeping. "If the Taliban do not wish to retain this inheritance, India would be happy to arrange for the transfer of all these artifacts to India, where they would be kept safely and preserved for all mankind in the full knowledge and clear understanding that they are, in the first place and above all, treasures of the Afghan people themselves," External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh said in the house.

"They are attacking the heart of Buddhism, the world's most peace-loving religion," Lama Chosphel Zotpa, president of the Himalayan Buddhist Cultural Association, said here. "The statues of the Buddha are some of the oldest and most sacred, the dirty hands that are touching them will be punished by divine authority."

Pakistan, which is among a few countries which support the Taliban militia, also joined the international community in urging the Afghanistan government to stop its campaign to destroy its own rich cultural heritage.

In the Sri Lankan capital, Colombo, the country's main Buddhist organization announced that it will try and persuade their government to report Afghanistan's Taliban regime to the International Court of Justice at the Hague in the Netherlands. "This is a criminal act which should be stopped," said Anil Amarasekera, spokesman for the National Joint Committee of Buddhist organizations. Sri Lanka's main Muslim party, the Sri Lanka Muslim Congress, announced it would launch a global campaign to urge the Taliban regime not to destroy the centuries-old statues.

An Iranian organization also strongly condemned the destruction and called on the U.N. to take serious action against the Taliban, according to a news report. IRNA, the official Iranian news agency, quoted a statement by Iran's Cultural Heritage Organization (CHO) as saying "strangely, certain Taliban-led individuals, calling themselves 'clerics,' have ordered the destruction of ancient sites of mankind, society, citing blasphemy and idolizing as reasons."

The United States also expressed "distress" at the Taliban order. The U.S. State Department's deputy spokesman, Philip Reeker, said his country was "distressed and baffled by this announcement by the Taliban. Deliberate destruction of statues and sculpture held as sacred by peoples of different faiths is incomprehensible, as is the Taliban's utter rejection of the treasures of Afghanistan's past."


The parallels to the destruction of what can be considered icons or symbols of the U.S. way of life is chilling to me. Interesting also that both Pakistan and Iran condemned the actions.

If you have read any articles or recieved emails pointing out this connection, I would appreciate you letting me know. I haven't seen it mentioned and I'd like to hear your thoughts.

dangerkitty

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Remember when the Taliban destr... SkyRaider 09-15-01 1
 RE: Remember when the Taliban destr... George Tirebiter 09-15-01 2
 RE: Remember when the Taliban destr... Outfrontgirl 09-15-01 3
 RE: Remember when the Taliban destr... IceCat 09-15-01 4
   Speaking of intolerance... dangerkitty 09-15-01 5
       RE: Speaking of intolerance... George Tirebiter 09-15-01 6
 RE: Remember when the Taliban destr... PeterTorque 09-16-01 7
   RE: Remember when the Taliban destr... Outfrontgirl 09-16-01 8
       Strapping Falwell and Robertson on ... IceCat 09-16-01 9
           Humour is as humour does Outfrontgirl 09-16-01 10
               Chalk One Up for OFG... IceCat 09-16-01 11
                   RE: Leif has one little question...... Leif Eriksen 09-17-01 12
                       That Would be Mr. Napoleon... IceCat 09-17-01 13
                           RE: Sorry, that is wrong. Leif Eriksen 09-18-01 14
                               A Point of Order... IceCat 09-18-01 15
                                   RE: A point not gotten..... Leif Eriksen 09-18-01 16
                                       A Point Well Made... IceCat 09-18-01 17
                                       RE: A point not gotten..... samiam 09-18-01 18
                                       Viking in the house! VampKira 09-18-01 19
 Taliban-bin Laden info... can anyon... PepeLePew13 09-19-01 20
   RE: Taliban-bin Laden info... can a... desert_rhino 09-19-01 21
   RE: Taliban-bin Laden info... can a... Outfrontgirl 09-19-01 22
   Confirmation.... samiam 09-19-01 23
       RE: Confirmation.... desert_rhino 09-19-01 24
   RE: Taliban-bin Laden info... can a... George Tirebiter 09-19-01 25
       RE: About Afghanistan... Dalton 09-19-01 26
           About Afghanistan... Thanks all PepeLePew13 09-19-01 27

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SkyRaider 1301 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-01, 08:26 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Remember when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues?"
LAST EDITED ON 09-15-01 AT 08:34 PM (EST)

On May 31, 2001, the Taliban also began requiring all Hindus to wear a four inch square of yellow cloth to identify themselves. Remember another government that required a people of a certain religion to wear similar pieces of cloth, only in the form of the Star of David?

The Taliban are echoing the footsteps of another despotic government not so long ago, but apparently long enough that the world has forgotten the lesson learned then:

The Nazis came for the sick and crippled and I did nothing, because it did not apply to me.

The Nazis came for the communists and I did nothing, because it did not apply to me.

The Nazis came for the the gypsies and I did nothing, because it did not apply to me.

The Nazis came for the homosexuals and I did nothing, because it did not apply to me.

The Nazis came for the Jews and I did nothing, because it did not apply to me.

The Nazis came for me and there was nothing to do, for there was no one left to stand up for me.

.......Something like that.......Words are cheap. The governments of the world gave lip service when the statues precious to the Buddhists were destroyed but did nothing. What will they do now? What else may we expect in the form of help now that it has happened to us?


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George Tirebiter 2982 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-01, 09:01 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Remember when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues?"
Hey, DK--I was remembering this a couple days ago. . . I remember sucking wind at the pix in the paper and wondering how far these feebs would be allowed to go. . .

But in this day and age of ever-decreasing attention spans, the whole matter seemed to be dropped quickly as other (and not necessarily important) news items cropped up. Crap--most of us can't stand the wait for a simple web page to load (c'mon, DSL!), a commercial break to be over (thank god for my remote!), and even books take too long for most people to bother with anymore.

I have been surprised (though I've been dumb enough to have the teevee on for days at a stretch, this week) that this is a subject no one seems to have bothered tying in to the week's events. . . pretty sad when even hindsight isn't 20/20!

GT

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09-15-01, 09:12 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Remember when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues?"
Thanks, DK and Sky for both your excellent posts. Sky, I remember this piece well, and its message is really apt for the day.

I had completely missed this story about the Buddhist statues. It's sickening and shocking. I admit to not really wanting to hear about the Taliban in the past as it's one of those world situations that makes me feel impotent. Now that something almost certainly will shake up there, I'm trying to catch up.

The connection between idols/icons and the towers makes a lot of sense. No question but they were icons of civilization and capitalism and could be seen as the epitome of Western hubris.
This underscores that we have reason to feel special concern for national monuments, museums, cathedrals, as well as strikes aimed at disrupting the working of our society. It goes along with the idea that the Pentagon plane may have considered the Capitol Building or White House as initial targets.
Thanks for the sharing your research everyone.

On a personal note, I had the privilege of viewing one of the largest Buddhas in Japan, the 8th century 53 foot high Buddha at Nara. The awe and reverence such historic creations inspire at first hand is so strong--no need to be Buddhist or Hindu to be struck by the spiritual aura emanating from the statue I saw. The idea of firing a cannon at such a sacred object/work of art is incomprehensible to me. But then, so are all these terrorist acts.

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09-15-01, 09:17 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Remember when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues?"
I was discussing this very subject with my students in class on Thursday. We were struck by the parallel of the giant icons being destroyed. One set of icons for the religion of buddhism the other set for the 'religion' of capitalism.

The parallel also extended to the area of lost lives as the Taliban is also know for putting to death anyone who advocates any religion other than Islam.

This group is the very imbodiment of intolerance...



September 11, 2001

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dangerkitty 1913 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-01, 09:37 PM (EST)
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5. "Speaking of intolerance..."
AyaK posted this link but it's buried in a large thread, and I think it needs to be included here. Actually, I'll post the text, too. And thanks, Sky, GT, OFG, and Ice for your insightful comments above.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html

God Gave U.S. 'What We Deserve,' Falwell Says


By John F. Harris
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 14, 2001; Page C03


Television evangelists Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, two of the most prominent voices of the religious right, said liberal civil liberties groups, feminists, homosexuals and abortion rights supporters bear partial responsibility for Tuesday's terrorist attacks because their actions have turned God's anger against America.

"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve," said Falwell, appearing yesterday on the Christian Broadcasting Network's "700 Club," hosted by Robertson.

"Jerry, that's my feeling," Robertson responded. "I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population."

Falwell said the American Civil Liberties Union has "got to take a lot of blame for this," again winning Robertson's agreement: "Well, yes."

Then Falwell broadened his blast to include the federal courts and others who he said were "throwing God out of the public square." He added: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.' "

People for the American Way transcribed the broadcast and denounced the comments as running directly counter to President Bush's call for national unity. Ralph G. Neas, the liberal group's president, called the remarks "absolutely inappropriate and irresponsible."

Robertson and others on the religious right gave critical backing to Bush last year when he was battling for the GOP presidential nomination. A White House official called the remarks "inappropriate" and added, "The president does not share those views."

Falwell was unrepentant, saying in an interview that he was "making a theological statement, not a legal statement."

"I put all the blame legally and morally on the actions of the terrorist," he said. But he said America's "secular and anti-Christian environment left us open to our Lord's not to protect. When a nation deserts God and expels God from the culture . . . the result is not good."

Robertson was not available for comment, a spokeswoman said. But she released a statement echoing the remarks he made on his show. An ACLU spokeswoman said the group "will not dignify the Falwell-Robertson remarks with a comment."

dangerkitty


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George Tirebiter 2982 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-01, 09:57 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Speaking of intolerance..."
I was going to add the idea that I thought fundamentalists of ANY kind are equally dangerous, and this just proves the point. . .

It's not so personally "threatening" when these cultists only succeed in offing themselves--but weren't these two yay-hoos running (or campaigning for others) for President of this country?! And they REALLY thought people would trust them to keep their "theological" and "legal" activities separate? Someone's a beer short of a six-pack there. . . (LOL--yes, I used that one because I liked the irony, juxtaposed against probable teetotalers. . .)

Heaven's Gate, Scientology, etc.--easily laughable, with their alien interventions and such. Somehow seems more dangerous when people twist something widely-accepted (Bible, etc.) to lure the gullible into their ranks. Of course, having a daily infomercial probably doesn't hurt them, either. . . Suppose the Mideast zealots have tapped that market, too?

GT

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PeterTorque 213 desperate attention whore postings
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09-16-01, 02:23 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Remember when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues?"
LAST EDITED ON 09-16-01 AT 02:26 AM (EST)

I think an important part of the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson quote was left out, the part at the end where they want you to send them money. When the Taliban were launching anti-aircraft missles at those giant rock statues, I was thinking that although it seemed a huge waste, what they were really wasting were their rockets; at least those particular missles wouldn't be used on people. A guy at work who is from Kabul, Afganistan, has a brother who was in the Taliban when they were the Freedom Fighters against the USSR (and incidentally were backed and trained by the US). Although the brother was Moslem he ended up quitting the Taliban because they were becoming more and more extreme. It's interesting to note that his brother reported the Russians used to spike local water wells with gasoline and ignite them, burning up whole villages while people slept. The Russians would also poison water sources to make them unusable, and they would add infectious biological agents to water supplies. If the Taliban is responsible for toppling the World Trade Towers, it appears they may have learned a few things from the Russians, and what scares me is if they did a biological attack next, the potential damage could be much worse than what just happened. If a lot of people were infected and didn't know it, they'd travel all over the world infecting other people and the casualties could increase exponentially until people figured out what was going on.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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09-16-01, 03:08 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Remember when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues?"
This is all truly terrifying. I hope God protects us from biological warfare with all my heart.

I'm still not sending Falwell/Robertson a penny of my money.
Unless it's to fund strapping them on a guided missile and shooting them at the Taliban so all that holiness in them can provide more bang for our buck...

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09-16-01, 05:31 AM (EST)
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9. "Strapping Falwell and Robertson on a Rocket?"
That would be bile-ological warfare!


September 11, 2001

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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09-16-01, 05:41 AM (EST)
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10. "Humour is as humour does"
ROFLMAO Ice, you are making me crack up all over the board!

Ummm, since "bile" is one of the four humours, that would make their exploding biliousness literally humorous, would it not?

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IceCat 17313 desperate attention whore postings
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09-16-01, 05:53 AM (EST)
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11. "Chalk One Up for OFG..."
I won't try and upstage you as references to blood and phlegm are worse than hairballs...


September 11, 2001

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Leif Eriksen 1179 desperate attention whore postings
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09-17-01, 06:39 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Leif has one little question...."
Who's armed forces used the Sphinx as a target for their artillery practice?

Just asking, that's all.

Leif Eriksen

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IceCat 17313 desperate attention whore postings
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09-17-01, 09:10 PM (EST)
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13. "That Would be Mr. Napoleon..."
Just answering, that's all...

Have a new hat, Leif!


September 11, 2001

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Leif Eriksen 1179 desperate attention whore postings
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09-18-01, 11:33 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Sorry, that is wrong."
The Turks used the face of the Sphinx as target practice when they were in Egypt before Napoleon's armies were ever there.

The point I am trying to make here is that misconceptions arise over the course of time and history. We have to be very careful about propaganda from anyone and anywhere, especially in these emotional times. The truth is out there somewhere and we probably will never know what it really is.

Leif Eriksen

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09-18-01, 06:03 PM (EST)
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15. "A Point of Order..."
Your question did not specify 'first'...

Although I admit my total ignorance of the Turkish damage, there are reputable sources that indicate that Napoleon's army's caused additional damage.

That would make both 'The Turks' and 'Napoleon' correct answers.

Just pointing out, that's all.



September 11, 2001

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Leif Eriksen 1179 desperate attention whore postings
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09-18-01, 06:21 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: A point not gotten....."
You completely missed the point I was actually trying to make, I think.

I just read an article about this matter and it has been proven through some sketches that were done of the Sphinx before the French Army had been in Egypt that all the damage was done before the Armed Forces of Napoleon were ever there. The sketches that were discussed in the article were from three different artists. Two of these artists were dead at the time of Napoleon being in Egypt. The state of the Sphinx depicted in the said sketches is the same as it is now.

When the British Armed forces were blamed for the damage on the Sphinx at a later date they blamed it on the most convenient villain of that time, Napoleon. Of course they were not shooting artillery rounds at the Sphinx, they were shooting at the pyramids.

So they say. (whoever they are)

Leif Eriksen

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09-18-01, 06:32 PM (EST)
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17. "A Point Well Made..."
You are correct, sir...

'History' is often propagandized...



September 11, 2001

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09-18-01, 08:21 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: A point not gotten....."
In addition, Napoleon had an almost reverential respect for Egyptian artifacts. He probably would have had anyone who DID use the Sphinx as target practice guillotined.

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09-18-01, 08:29 PM (EST)
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19. "Viking in the house!"
Where the (bleep) have you been, Leifsy?? *hugs the Viking*


"We'll know for the first time,
If we're evil or divine...
We're the last in line." - Ronnie James Dio

Du ar min hjälte, Supermänniska


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09-19-01, 12:37 PM (EST)
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20. "Taliban-bin Laden info... can anyone confirm/refute this?"
This came in an email yesterday... it sounds legit, but I don't know enough of the inner workings of the people or government of Afghanistan, so I can't form an educated opinion on this article as yet. Is there anyone (AyaK?) out there who can confirm or refute this information? Scary info if this is true.

If it IS bin Laden or the Taliban that is behind the atrocities in New York, then do what we have to do to bring justice -- but let's make sure we are going to go after the right people.

****************************************************************

This came in email, I checked the author out, he does exist.

(friend)


Mir Tamim Ansary is a writer and columnist in San Francisco, who comes from Afghanistan:

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time. So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

Bin Laden does.

Anyone else?

****************************************************************

"Permit me to introduce myself. I am Pepe Le Pew, your lover."

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desert_rhino 10087 desperate attention whore postings
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09-19-01, 12:57 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Taliban-bin Laden info... can anyone confirm/refute this?"
Heh. There's a good premise here, except that Pakistan just said, "sure, whatever you want. land, sea, air, it's yours. Oh, and here, we'll shut our Afghan border, too." Pretty much everyone but the Taliban has the sense to see what's coming, and NOBODY wants to be wiped from the face of the planet.

Make no mistake, if there is any country in the world with the "belly" to wipe out an entire people, it's the US. I'm not convinced this is a bad thing. Sometimes you have to just make the problem go away, or it eats away at you forever. If you have gangrene in your foot, do you try to stop it with cleaning and disinfecting, and debriding? If that doesn't help? Do you keep it up? nah. Pretty soon, you cut off the foot to save the leg.

-- JV

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Better be damned than mentioned not at all." --John Wolcot (1738–1819)

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09-19-01, 02:23 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Taliban-bin Laden info... can anyone confirm/refute this?"
Thanks Pepe,
As JV says, the Pakistanis, for now at least, have said they'll provide access... so invasion becomes feasible.

This expresses our clear choice: ground troops going after a specific target or air strikes obliterating innocents and probably missing the culprits.

The moral ethical choice is clear, have the courage to send in soldiers... except last time we really tried fighting someone on their own ground was Vietnam. We didn't win and our losses were appalling. But if we really want to act courageously then that's what we should do--if we can act on proper intelligence.

And if we can liberate Afghanistan in the process--well, unlike with Vietnam, the Afghani people, especially the poor women and orphans there, actually want and need our help. Plus we trained and enabled these Nazis in the first place. I think we owe the people to make up for that terrible mistake.

I'd like to see the U.S. do something where there's a remote possibility of helping in the region... We can't obliterate Islam. We need to do something to make the moderates grudgingly respect our motives (I know, easier said than done) and the fanatics to respect and and fear us, if possible.

Killing innocent people with indiscretion--well, all aboard for WWIII. Maybe it's coming anyway, but why ensure it with bombs?

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09-19-01, 02:34 PM (EST)
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23. "Confirmation...."
LAST EDITED ON 09-19-01 AT 05:01 PM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 09-19-01 AT 02:34 PM (EST)

Several things here, from a brief history of the Taliban and the rules they've imposed, to statements from bin Laden concerning his feelings about America. I know I found out some information *I* didn't know.

From CBC Online:
The Taliban rulers of Afghanistan have drawn the ire of human rights groups and governments around the world with a series of edicts imposed on the Afghan people. Recently, they have decreed that all non-Muslims in Afghanistan must wear identification tags, destroyed two 2,000-year-old statues of Buddha and forbidden women from working, even for United Nations relief agencies.
The Taliban is a fundamentalist Islamic militia that controls 90 per cent of Afghanistan. Its rise to power effectively ended a 25-year period of civil war, but now Afghanis find themselves under the rule of an austere and puritanical regime.
The Taliban – whose name in Arabic means "seekers of truth" – have banned television, dance, film, photography, kite-flying, non-religious music and, most famously, statues such as the giant Buddhas in Bamiyan, which the Taliban destroyed in March 2001.
Under the Taliban's strict interpretation of Islamic law – a controversial interpretation some Islamic scholars call a gross distortion – women cannot work or attend school and must be covered from head to toe when outside of their homes. Since female doctors generally cannot practise and male doctors can not see or touch their female patients' bodies, access to medical care for women is severely restricted.
Only three nations – Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates – recognize the Taliban and their leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. The United Nations has imposed trade barriers and travel restrictions on Afghanistan. The sanctions are, in part, designed to pressure the Taliban into handing over Osama bin Laden, the accused Saudi terrorist.
The Taliban first drew the world's attention in 1994, when Pakistan recruited them to protect their trade convoys. They grew in popularity because they fought corruption and lawlessness and because they, like most of the Afghan people, are ethnic Pashtoons, while the leaders at the time were Tajiks and Uzbeks. The Taliban captured the Afghan capital of Kabul in 1996 and, by 1998, had virtually eliminated the opposing northern alliance.
Afghanistan has had a history of civil war and instability since a coup ousted King Zahir Shah in 1973, ending the Durrani Dynasty and the Afghan monarchy. The country was the front line of the Cold War for the latter half of the '70s and the '80s, with Soviet-backed Communists battling the U.S.-backed Mujahedeen, or Muslim holy warriors.

From WashingtonPost.com:
Afghanistan
Afghanistan, 250,000 square miles of often forbidding terrain pinched between Iran and Pakistan, has been controlled by the radical Islamic Taliban movement since 1996.
Negotiating – even reasoning – with the Taliban has vexed governments and international organizations ever since the group assumed power after a long civil war.
Only three countries – Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates – recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government in Kabul.
The group, whose name means "seekers of religious knowledge," sprang up from ultra-conservative religious schools in refugee camps in Pakistan.
The camps were recruiting grounds for guerrilla groups during the Soviet Union's 1979-89 occupation of Afghanistan and during years of battle between rival ethnic warlords that followed the collapse of the Soviet-backed government in 1992.
The emergence of the Taliban in the mid 1990s was initially hailed by many Afghans, who welcomed the group's promise to unite the country and end more than 15 years of warfare. But powerful warlords in the north – particularly the Tajik commander Ahmed Shah Massoud – continued their guerrilla campaigns. Many Afghans have turned against the Taliban because of its repressive brand of Islam and the brutality of its leaders.
Foreign governments, alarmed by the proliferation of Islamic terrorist groups operating in Afghanistan, a rise in opium cultivation and trafficking and disdain for human rights, shunned and isolated the country. Today, Afghanistan is one of the poorest and most backward countries in the world.
Particularly galling for foreign governments is the Taliban's harboring of Osama bin Laden, a fugitive Saudi millionaire who is the world's most wanted terrorist suspect.
Last December, the U.N. Security Council passed a resolution demanding that the Taliban hand over bin Laden to any country "where he will be arrested and effectively brought to justice."
The resolution also said the Taliban "should act swiftly to close all camps where terrorists are trained within the territory under its control."

Pakistan
Pakistan serves as the Afghan regime's principal channel to the world. Nevertheless, Pakistan appears to have relatively little influence on the Taliban, whose leaders are extremely resistant to advice and pressure from abroad.
Pakistan, which is governed by an army general who seized power in October 1999, is trying to win international support to shore up its economy and project a moderate image despite its support for the Taliban and for armed guerrillas fighting Indian forces in the disputed border region of Kashmir. However, if the United States were to launch an air attack or commando raid on Afghanistan to kill or seize bin Laden, Pakistan would likely criticize such an attack publicly and not overtly allow its territory to be used as a launching pad.
In August 1998, the United States bombed several desert camps in Afghanistan in retaliation for bin Laden's alleged links to the bombings of two American embassies in East Africa. A number of Pakistanis were killed and wounded in the attacks; most were reportedly being trained there for armed religious combat, possibly with funding from bin Laden.
The two countries share a long and porous border, which has served for years as a relief valve for hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees fleeing war and drought. Pakistan is also a Muslim state; a vocal and influential minority of Muslims in Pakistan support the Taliban, including armed extremist groups.
Strategic ties between the two countries intensified during the 1980s, when Soviet troops occupied Afghanistan while Pakistan served as a base for U.S.-backed resistance fighters, who included bin Laden."

Another little point of interest I found in my research: Mullah Mohammad Omar, the Amir of the Taliban, is bin Laden's son-in-law. He's going to turn in bin Laden? Come ON.

A few statements from bin Laden himself, from interviews:

"Nowadays, jihad needs to be waged by the nation. The obligation to engage in jihad may be dropped if people suffer from disability. But, we believe that those who participated in the jihad in Afghanistan bear the greatest responsibility in this regard, because they realized that with insignificant capabilities, with a small number of RPG's, with a small number of antitank mines, with a small number of Kalashnikov rifles, they managed to crush the greatest empire known to mankind. They crushed the greatest military machine. The so-called superpowers vanished into thin air. We think that the United States is very much weaker than Russia. Based on the reports we received from our brothers who participated in jihad in Somalia, we learned that they saw the weakness, frailty, and cowardice of US troops. Only 80 US troops were killed. Nonetheless, they fled in the heart of darkness, frustrated, after they had caused great commotion about the new world order." (emphasis mine)

"There was an attack on the countries of Islam, especially on the holy shrines and on al-Aqsa Mosque, the prophet's first Kiblah. And then the aggression continued with the Crusader-Jewish alliance being led by the United States and Israel. Now they have taken the country of the two holy mosques. The only source of strength is Allah.
We seek to instigate the nation to get up and liberate its land, to fight for the sake of God, and to make the Islamic law the highest law, and the word of God the highest word of all. "

"This is a US attempt to distort things. Praise be to God who made their plots backfire on them. Every Muslim who sees discrimination begins to hate the Americans, the Jews, and Christians. This is part of our religion and faith. Since I become aware of things around me, I have been in a war, enmity, hatred against the Americans. What they claim has never happened. Saying that they supported jihad or fighting, it became clear to us that this support was from the Arab states, particularly the Gulf states, for Pakistan to encourage it to support jihad. This support was not for the sake of Almighty God, but out of fear for their thrones from the Soviet advance. At the time time, Carter was the US President. He could not say anything significant until after some 20 days in 1399 , corresponding to 20 January . He said any Russian interference in the Gulf region will be termed an aggression against the United States. This is because he occupies this region and its oil. This is why he said we will use military force if this interference takes place. The Americans are lying when they say that they cooperated with us in the past, and we challenge them to show any evidence of this. The truth of the matter is that they were a burden on us and on the mujahidin in Afghanistan. There was no agreement on this. We were doing our duty in support of Islam in Afghanistan, although this duty used to serve, against our desire, the US interests."

"Let us say that there are two parties to the conflict: The first party is world Christianity, which is allied with Zionist Jewry and led by the United States, Britain, and Israel; while the second party is the Muslim world. In such a conflict, it is unacceptable to see the first party mount attacks, desecrate my lands and holy shrines, and plunder the Muslims' oil. When it is met by any resistance on the part of the Muslims, this party brands the Muslims as terrorists. This is stupidity. People's intelligence is being belittled. We believe that it is our religious duty to resist this occupation with all the power that we have and to punish it using the same means it is pursuing against us."
"The United States has an advantage media-wise and has great media power that varies its standards according to its needs. Our enemy, the target -- if God gives Muslims the opportunity to do so -- is every American male, whether he is directly fighting us or paying taxes." (again, emphasis mine)

Edited because I never CAN remember to not use the shift key when doing HTML tags for SB.

"I say to our enemies, 'We are coming. God may show you mercy. We will not.'" -- John McCain

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09-19-01, 02:55 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Confirmation...."
The Americans are lying when they say that they cooperated with us in the past, and we challenge them to show any evidence of this. The truth of the matter is that they were a burden on us and on the mujahidin in Afghanistan. There was no agreement on this. We were doing our duty in support of Islam in Afghanistan, although this duty used to serve, against our desire, the US interests.

We gave bin Laden HOW much money, directly? And strangely, I recall that one of the big boons that the mujahidin received from the US was Stinger ground-to-air missiles.

I suppose when you're dealing with a completely State-controlled media, in an illiterate society, you can rewrite history at will.

-- JV


"What rage for fame attends both great and small!
Better be damned than mentioned not at all." --John Wolcot (1738–1819)

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09-19-01, 03:01 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Taliban-bin Laden info... can anyone confirm/refute this?"
Pépé--I heard a shocking little tidbit on the morning news (yesterday? day before? sorry--I am seriously time-impaired. . .) that made me think about this from another angle. Yes, it sounds noble to talk of liberating Afghanistan and all those poor widows and starving, one-legged kids. . . but when they interviewed Afghans who are camping at the Pakistani border about all this, the overwhelming response was, "Yes, we hate the Taliban--but if the US comes to bomb my country, kill my brothers, what choice do I have but to go back and defend them? An attack by the US will force us to become the Taliban, to become bin Laden. . ."

So. . . how to weed out the assholes without inciting the rest of the country--or the rest of the Muslim world--to join them?

Man, I hate politics. . .

GT

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09-19-01, 05:49 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: About Afghanistan..."
For all of you who would like to learn more about Afghanistan and it's history, pre-Russian invasion. I will recommend a book entitled "CARAVANS", written by James A. Michener. Trust me it's an old Michener novel and I tried to find copyright date on the internet but no luck --- surely you can get a copy from the library or used-book store. (Maybe on EBAY...hint, hint!)

For those who read Michener -- you know that while he writes "fiction" he also manages to educate his readers about the country/area and the people and history involved as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

As to the Taliban it is the "religious" not governmental authority ruling Afghanistan. This may be a bad example, and I apologize in advance, but imagine if you can stand it....that "Farwell/Robinson" and their "followers" were demanding citizens follow THEM instead of the elected members of our Executive/Legislative/Judicial form of government. NOW imagine if these "religious" leaders had missles, machinery and armed troops to FORCE people to join their "holy beliefs"! I know, it's too scarry to even think about!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~

As to Bin Laden......well, good old Charlie Manson in California told his "cult members" that he was "Jesus Christ"!!! His ultimate goal was to start a "race war" in the United States that would destroy everybody except those who followed him!!!
Pause a moment to reflect on Charles Manson with 34 million dollars and guns enough to be effective on a giant scale.

Dalton

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09-19-01, 11:48 PM (EST)
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27. "About Afghanistan... Thanks all"
Thanks to all (JV, sami, OFG, GT, Dalton) for the great information you've provided about Afghanistan -- so much to learn about these people. Each of you make valid points and this one in particular, from sami's post, really sums up my confusion about which way Pakistan is likely to go when it comes to cooperation with the US...

Pakistan, which is governed by an army general who seized power in October 1999, is trying to win international support to shore up its economy and project a moderate image despite its support for the Taliban and for armed guerrillas fighting Indian forces in the disputed border region of Kashmir. However, if the United States were to launch an air attack or commando raid on Afghanistan to kill or seize bin Laden, Pakistan would likely criticize such an attack publicly and not overtly allow its territory to be used as a launching pad.

They've publicly announced their support for the United States in this incident, but can we truly count on them when it comes to the nitty-gritty? Likewise, other nations surrounding Afghanistan (Iran and some of the federations that were under the former Soviet Union) have announced support to some degree for the US but they were also strong enemies at one time or another.

Dalton... yes I've read a couple of Michener's books, but not the one you're referring to here. I really should go check it out -- thanks for the tip.


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