Again Statistically speaking (Sociology degree at work here specifically Marriage and the Family Seminars), Most parents that are in the MIDDLE UPPER CLASS does not spank. These include those who USUALLY have a college education, career focused, doctors, CPA's, were educated etc. This category of class definitely coincides with those in the show Desperate Housewives. Likewise, the lower upper class (or the working class) are more authoritarian and do not spank as much. They have a patriarchal family system where children do obey. Those in this class include: skilled workers, plumbers, electricians, and some semi skilled jobs. But the class that is well documented to not spank and are raised in democratic homes is the Middle Upper class. Lower lower class people STATISTICALLY do use spanking as their primary discipline technique.Interestingly, the upper upper class (or 1% of those in our society) also believe in strict discipline and are authoritarian parents much like the lower lower class.

And why the focus on class---this whole show focused on class--and one in particular--the Middle Upper class. If the writers on this show are going to paint us a picture of life as a middle Upper class family, let's be true to reality. In reality, spanking is not a common practice with this particular class of parents. Definitely not common with the mother who was a career minded, educated woman turn mom to be a spanker--again statistically speaking.

But I agree with the above poster that states that spanking another person's child is indeed unacceptable. And wouldn't you think Bree of all people would know that being that she is VERY MUCH focused in on appearances--mainly hers being perfect???

LAST EDITED ON 04-08-05 AT 08:33 AM (EST)

It's a television show, written by writers, who are writing characters. It's fiction.
Not many middle class neighborhoods have bodies buried under swimming pools, outhouses in backyards, and a Prostitute living down the street either.

Perhaps the spanking references are shown because this behavior would be out of character for the career woman Lynette, and it would be a way to show that she is at the end of her rope on how to discipline these boys. The storyline has her struggling with how to deal with out of control children.

Saying that statistically, most middle class educated women don't spank their children, doesn't mean that none do.

This entire show is based on outrageous behavior.

(edit for a comma)

Hooray! My family is outrageous!

A2K...where are the stats? You claim that everything you say is backed up by stats yet you have proven nothing. Please give us links to stats that prove rich to upper class families do not spank their children.

Volsfan,
As I previously stated earlier, this was all learned and I took notes on it on my Marriage and the Family class and later graduate seminar through Sociology. I don't have any links for you but this is information I have learned through graduate classes in Sociology. I guess if you want to "verify" the information I have given I would suggest to take a class on Marriage at the Family through the Sociology department at the college of your choice or perhaps do some personal research via the internet.

You are the one making claims...all I ask is that you prove it.

1) Just because something is being taught in an education class doesn't make it so.
2) Data can be collected to prove anything the collector wants us to believe.
3) I have a master's degree in business and have no desire to go back to school.
4) If this type of data were discussed in your class there has to be some info found online.
5) When you make claims like this please do your research and be able to back-up what you claim with data and links.
6) I could come to these forums and make claims that 4 out of every 5 American men are gay but that doesn't make it true!

LAST EDITED ON 04-09-05 AT 02:55 PM (EST)

>You are the one making claims...all
>I ask is that you
>prove it.

>1) Just because something is being
>taught in an education class
>doesn't make it so.

Sure I guess not. Than I guess I would say, prove me wrong (or prove the education system wrong). Do your own research or research this topic further and see if it is incorrect info.
>2) Data can be collected to
>prove anything the collector wants
>us to believe.
I don't think that is necessarily true but that's your opinion. Let's leave it at that.

>3) I have a master's degree
>in business and have no
>desire to go back to
>school.
Congratulations on your MBA!

>4) If this type of data
>were discussed in your class
>there has to be some
>info found online.
This topic was not discussed from sources online nor did the professors use online info but rather texts written within the last 3 years of the class (2003). I am certain there are online resources to back this up but I do not have them readily available.
>5) When you make claims like
>this please do your research
>and be able to back-up
>what you claim with data
>and links.
I did my research in the classroom with texts. I did not use any online info and cannot pass it to you. This is not an educated message board and it is NOT pertinent for me to give data and links. You are free to go about proving my information inaccurate by doing your own online research.
>6) I could come to these
>forums and make claims that
>4 out of every 5
>American men are gay but
>that doesn't make it true!
>
That's true you could do that. That's your right. If a person did not believe that stated statement, I would expect them to set out to prove them wrong. So if you think I am wrong, you are free to research online and prove me (or sociological research truly) wrong.

By the way, is there a reason you want statements based on sociological data to be wrong? They are based on the majority of those in a specific social class. Is this bothersome?

When I first saw this thread and then read the first line:

I am pretty sure, statistically speaking, that MOST upper middle class women DO NOT spank their kids.

I thought this would be someone linking to information on such a topic because this is a very BROAD topic. I personally don't think any statment such as this can be proven. That is why I wanted to see links to such data. I will not be spending any time trying to prove you wrong when you haven't convinced me that you have made a point. If you had started the thread with a statement that you think most upper middle class women do not spank their kids and left the "statistically speaking" out of the statement, I probably would have never responded to this thread. It would just be your opinion and we all have one!

This is not an educated message board and it is NOT pertinent for me to give data and links.

While this is a message board about television shows there are some very well educated people that posts on these forums all the time. While you don't think it is pertinent and it may not be when someone makes a statement as such as you...I would hope there would be evidence to back up said statement.

For instance, If I came to this forum and said statistically speaking in almost every middle to upper class neighborhood there's at least one prostitute carrying out her business from her house. Would this be something that you would just agree with and call it true? If so, then you are more naive than I. I don't take statements like that and just run with them and I would expect someone to at least have a way of backing up what they are saying.

2) Data can be collected to
prove anything the collector wants
us to believe.
I don't think that is necessarily true but that's your opinion. Let's leave it at that.

Do you think Peta would ever release any type of information that would say it was ok to be cruel to animals? The group would always bias their information to fit their cause.

By the way, is there a reason you want statements based on sociological data to be wrong? They are based on the majority of those in a specific social class. Is this bothersome?

I don't have children and this will never affect me in any way, shape or form and I could care less. I just think that making a statement about upper middle class and paddling is very similar to saying that most upper middle class people are Republicans. I am not stating that I believe they are Republicans, I am only making a comparison.

For what it's worth: I think parents overall are more likely to NOT spank/paddle their children today. I personally don't think their sociological status has anything to do with it.

LAST EDITED ON 04-08-05 AT 11:33 PM (EST)

>Please
>give us links to stats
>that prove rich to upper
>class families do not spank
>their children.

The rich upper class is NOT included in parents that do not spank. They are usually more authorative parents who may or may not spank. It covers ONLY the MIDDLE UPPER class--see above for a description because this covers the type of people specifically on this show.

LAST EDITED ON 04-09-05 AT 09:59 AM (EST)

see above for a description because this covers the type of people specifically on this show.

Um...I have. Actually, what you are saying is very confusing! You say:

The rich upper class is NOT included in parents that do not spank.

The two "not"s are very confusing. So, are you saying that you have concluded that the upper middle class do not spank their children?

Then you say:

They are usually more authorative parents who may or may not spank.

So, there are no conclusions whether the upper middle class parents spank their children?

It covers ONLY the MIDDLE UPPER class

Again, what does this mean? You only want to discuss the upper middle class?

Lastly, why pick this one thing to discuss about the show? I don't understand why you are so determined to pick this apart like this. Is this very important to the show?

>LAST EDITED ON 04-09-05
>AT 09:59 AM (EST)
>
>see above for a description because
>this covers the type of
>people specifically on this show.
>
>
>Um...I have. Actually, what you are
>saying is very confusing! You
>say:
>
>The rich upper class is NOT
>included in parents that do
>not spank.

Upper class (top 1% of those who are wealthy in American society): Authoratative parents who may or may not spank.

MIDDLE upper class: Democratic parents who mostly do not spank but mainly use positive discipline. This is the focus of our discussion because this is the family we are observing in Desperate Housewives.

MIDDLE lower class (Working class): Authorative parents who may or may not spank.

Lower Upper class (blue collar): Authorative parents.

Lower lower class (poverty): Authorative parents.

>The two "not"s are very confusing.
>So, are you saying that
>you have concluded that the
>upper middle class do not
>spank their children?
>
>Then you say:
>
>They are usually more authorative parents
>who may or may not
>spank.
>
>So, there are no conclusions whether
>the upper middle class parents
>spank their children?

Most do not spank but are democratic in their approach to parenting

>It covers ONLY the MIDDLE UPPER
>class
>
>Again, what does this mean? You
>only want to discuss the
>upper middle class?
This is the family type of the show Desperate Housewives which is why I brought it up.
>Lastly, why pick this one thing
>to discuss about the show?
>I don't understand why you
>are so determined to pick
>this apart like this. Is
>this very important to the
>show?

I am simply pointing out that spanking is not the norm in the middle upper class which is where this show takes place---the homes of the middle upper class. If you don't think it is important to the show, that's fine. I thought it was an interesting topic. My opinion.

Upper class (top 1% of those who are wealthy in American society): Authoratative parents who may or may not spank.

MIDDLE upper class: Democratic parents who mostly do not spank but mainly use positive discipline. This is the focus of our discussion because this is the family we are observing in Desperate Housewives.

MIDDLE lower class (Working class): Authorative parents who may or may not spank.

Lower Upper class (blue collar): Authorative parents.

Lower lower class (poverty): Authorative parents.

Maybe this is our disconnect because I don't agree with generalizations at all. There are always exceptions to these rules and there always will be. I guess because I fall into a minority and don't fit the general description it is hard for me to agree with things like this.

After Maisey changed the rules of the "naughty room," spanking became the only option.

Crowned by Pooh. Decorated by Syren

Spanking was not an option for me, but that didn't rule out spanking threats. I broke a couple wooden spoons standing at the bottom of the stairs and threatening "Don't make me come up there" whack on the entryway. And the spoon snapped. Some times the idea is sufficient. During those times when the girls start playing "Remember when" they always bring up the fact that they thought I MIGHT spank them, and laugh that they thought it possible. Did it change their behaviour? Not overly. But they weren't so noisy on the nights the spoons broke.

Lynette seems a character that loves her kids but is at the outer limits with trying to find dicipline that works. Remember when she kicked the boys out of the car because someone suggested it had worked with her and her mother? Then she drove around the block and they were inside with a lady who saw her drive off.

I have a perfect body, however, it's in my trunk and beginning to smell.

Oh I agree that Lynette's character loves her children and is definitely trying to come up with a working plan of which discipline methods will work for her. Maybe they could tie in the SuperNanny as it is on ABC as well and get her to visit and help this family! That would be funny!

This post was simply to point out that spanking is not usually a discipline method that upper middle class women would use in their households. Again this is the major majority of the upper middle class households.

From my research for delivering presentations for child abuse prevention agencies, I can say that yes, upper middle class women REALLY spank their kids.

A significant percentage of these women come from two-parent households, and during their childhoods, spanking was considered an appropriate form of discipline. The mentality that "since it wasn't overly harmful to me, so it won't be overly harmful to my kids" still holds in a number of these households. Since they do not considered themselves abused children, even though they were spanked by their parents, they do not believe that they would be abusing their children if they were to spank.

Do they admit to spanking their kids? Probably not, since in this era, such an admission could result in having child services invade your home on suspicion of child abuse. But when no one's looking, would they swat their child? Sure. After all, it didn't cause them irreparable harm, so they reason that it wouldn't harm their kids.

And in my role as a new parent, I can tell you from discussions with other new parents that there are situations for which they would spank their children. Most situations wouldn't warrant a spanking, but there are some so grievous that the parents believe they want to make a point. And a number of these parents would be classed as upper middle class families.

The stereotype that spanking is a tool of the ignorant is not an accurate one. In many cases, I've heard educated people who were spanked as children who believe that it does not cause irreperable harm based on their own upbringing, and are thus open to using the same discipline technique on their own kids.

I spank...although i RARELY have to now that they are of the age of reason and, more importantly, they know that I will.

Did you just call me ignorant?

Are you talking about TV families or real families?

i won't go into my many degrees and my areas of expertise because most of the long timers around here know my background.

i will, however, just say that i completely disagree with your position on this. perhaps my immediate discomfort in your position lies in the fact that you neglected to define spanking. are you talking a tap on the hand when a child is bad? a pop on the butt? sending a child out to get a twig and then hitting them with it? a full on brutal beating? further, chances are the studies that you are referencing probably don't define either. as a trained sociologist, i prefer to look at carefully defined and objectively based studies that provide measurable results.

cite your sources and give me some meat to chew on. until then, i will disagree with you because the majority of the published data that i have seen and studied do not agree with your position.

I asked for sources earlier and the poster doesn't have any.

Just think of all the money wasted on the PR campaigns againts child abuse that claim 'abuse has no social/class boundries'.

just a thought.

"Categorizing parents according to whether they are high or low on parental demandingness and responsiveness creates a typology of four parenting styles: indulgent, authoritarian, authoritative, and uninvolved (Maccoby & Martin, 1983). Each of these parenting styles reflects different naturally occurring patterns of parental values, practices, and behaviors (Baumrind, 1991) and a distinct balance of responsiveness and demandingness.

* Indulgent parents (also referred to as "permissive" or "nondirective") "are more responsive than they are demanding. They are nontraditional and lenient, do not require mature behavior, allow considerable self-regulation, and avoid confrontation" (Baumrind, 1991, p. 62). Indulgent parents may be further divided into two types: democratic parents, who, though lenient, are more conscientious, engaged, and committed to the child, and nondirective parents.

* Authoritarian parents are highly demanding and directive, but not responsive. "They are obedience- and status-oriented, and expect their orders to be obeyed without explanation" (Baumrind, 1991, p. 62). These parents provide well-ordered and structured environments with clearly stated rules. Authoritarian parents can be divided into two types: nonauthoritarian-directive, who are directive, but not intrusive or autocratic in their use of power, and authoritarian-directive, who are highly intrusive.

* Authoritative parents are both demanding and responsive. "They monitor and impart clear standards for their children's conduct. They are assertive, but not intrusive and restrictive. Their disciplinary methods are supportive, rather than punitive. They want their children to be assertive as well as socially responsible, and self-regulated as well as cooperative" (Baumrind, 1991, p. 62).

* Uninvolved parents are low in both responsiveness and demandingness. In extreme cases, this parenting style might encompass both rejecting-neglecting and neglectful parents, although most parents of this type fall within the normal range. Because parenting style is a typology, rather than a linear combination of responsiveness and demandingness, each parenting style is more than and different from the sum of its parts (Baumrind, 1991)."

The above is taken from an article to which the reference is at the bottom. So I apologize as I was calling the authoritarian parents authoritative (there is a difference and I was incorrect on that wording in my previous posts--sorry) and that was incorrect.

The article goes on to say that in "the United States authoritative parenting is most common among intact, middle- class families of European descent"

If you look above at the definition of authoritative parenting (see above according to the article), this includes discipline that is "supportive" rather than "PUNITIVE"<<inflicting punishment>>. Hence why I was stating that most middle upper class parents do not spank.

I am not defining spanking as abusive physical punishment but simply what we have seen on this show "taking over the knee and spanking with a hand/belt/wooden spoon." I am not talking about abuse as in slapping across the face, or punching or something like that. Of course, inflicting punishment IN ITSELF may be abuse to some and to others there are certain lines you do not cross. Needless to say, the focus was on the punitive measures of spanking AS IT PERTAINS to the show DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES. So a further explanation on what is abuse in spanking and non abuse in spanking is not where I was trying to go with this topic.

As I said before my understanding of this topic was extracted from a book for my Family Seminar entitled UNDERSTANDING FAMILIES INTO THE NEW MILLENNIUM written by Arendell, T. and another book I don't recall out of an undergraduate Sociology Marriage and the Family class. I no longer have access to look up full text articles as I am no longer a student so this article out of ERIC (educational database) is the best I could do. So, if you would like to post studies that say something contradictory to what I have said, go for it!

Title: Parenting Style and Its Correlates. ERIC Digest.
Document Type: Information Analyses---ERIC Information Analysis Products (IAPs)
(071); Information Analyses---ERIC Digests (Selected) in Full Text (073);

I'm not arguing with you. However, I think that the point is (or should be) that with education comes the understanding that 'smacking' a kid for no good reason is wrong. Then it is no longer the only way you can communicate displeasure or discipline. Although my husband is from an upper class family and he and his sister got the ##### beat out of them as kids. As a matter of fact there is a moratorium of his parents spending any alone time with our 7 year old since Grandpa smacked the crap out of him a few weeks after my husbands stroke. I think that the 'upper class' hide their secrets well and the 'lower class' has a more open dialogue with the police. It's called 'cover up' or cya or whatever. People do what they do no matter how much money or breeding they do or do not have. We are the human animal and learning to control base urges is the answer to abuse but if they are learned by example, which is most often the case then education (not necessarily higher education) is how you change the patterns.

Thanks for taking the time to look and post up your backup. We all need to keep in mind though that every research project has one specific thing to prove. Take the Yale research that took PPA products off the market and said pseudoephedrine was safe (HA!) well there is another research project going on now that is proving that pseudoephedrine is NOT safe and does indeed cause strokes (my husband is an example). So quoting research is risky -the variants are never really known especially if they are answers to questions that are taboo to our social values.

peace

look at more research and go further into what you read. i appreciate your attempt at citation, but what i find remarkable is that you have focused on the economic indicators rather than the cultural/ethnic factors.

you quote the article as saying "the United States authoritative parenting is most common among intact, middle- class families of European descent" and all that really tells us (and i am making some assumptions here) is that if you are of European ethnicity, you are middle-class by US standards and your family is the "traditional" family, you are likely to be an authoritative parent. (an intact family, by generally acceptable terms is a family unit of father-mother-child(ren).)

well, we know that about 50% (give or take a few percentage points depending on the year)of marriages end in divorce. we also know that there are many single parent homes. we also have many same sex partner homes (and these don't fit the definition of intact).

so, lets be free with the numbers and really dig here. do you really think that the writer of this statement is validly stating that most middle class families don't spank? no. the author is only saying that a maority of families that fall within a certain socioeconomic platform spank.

and FWIW, the only family on the show that is an intact family is Lynette's and from what we have heard in teh spoilers that is about to change.

In the show, Desperate Housewives, those pictured WITH CHILDREN CURRENTLY on the show ARE of European decent. So there wasn't a true need to focus on ethnic differences because the show does not. (side note, Bree's family is also all under one roof with father and mother--minus son in behavior camp). I focused on class specifically because this show does have characters that are all middle upper class---they are in a middle upper class neighborhood.
Okay so I am guessing no one else thinks it odd to portray spanking as the norm for parenting in Wisteria Lane. So now that this subject has been addressed lets move on to this: Does anyone think it odd that Lynette, as an educated career driven woman turned mom, DOES NOT have any tricks up her sleeve (like by reading parenting, discipline books, whatever) to discipline her kids other than idle threats or now the threat that the neighbor "Bree" will spank? I personally don't buy that. The educated women I know have read TONS of books and try to employ different discipline techniques other than idle threats which don't work or at least don't work forever. Any opinions on that score?

the answer to your new question is simple. not all educated women (and men) are educated in child rearing and child behavior. we don't all pursue knowledge in the same areas.

when the first question hasn't been resolved? We have no answer here.

A2K, you have some interest in all this...why do you find the spanking thing interesting?

Since this forum is for the discussion of the television show. The original question was pertinent to the episode, but this discussion has moved into an off-topic discussion of parenting. Those sorts of discussion belong on the off-topic forum, not here.

I was spanked growing up. Now, my parents aren't upper middle class, but they did spank my brother and me. And I think it's a good thing, regardless of your class.

I think it's a good thing they spanked you too.

*WooHoo, I got me a Syren!*

I am going to spank somebody if Boston Legal doesnt come back on soon. By the way..........where is their message board????

Hi Always Watching, and welcome to the boards. Boston Legal would be discussed in the "other shows" forum in the non-reality section. It hasn't been discussed (from what I could see) since November. Here is the link..

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID45/322.shtml

*WooHoo, I got me a Syren!*

I'm waiting for Boston Legal to come back too. You are not alone.