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"Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
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Aruba 2294 desperate attention whore postings
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09-14-15, 06:44 PM (EST)
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"Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
The boy Steve is quite a superfan; you’ve got to give him that much. Pretty astute of him remembering Bowl-a-rina was the comp that ended the BB15 showmance and resulted in the ‘ole heave-HO for the skanky Ho...Homanda that is. If Vanessa got her way, history would have repeated itself and it would have split this season’s showmance as well. But no way Jmac and Steve were going to allow the quintessential goat (Julia) to stay in the game. Shades of Courtney S12 Exile Island.

VANESSA – Big time HOH win! If she comes up short in BOTH the HoH and POV this week, she could very well end up on the block for tomorrow’s eviction. But that can’t happen now because she proactively took control of her immediate fate. Well done! Taking advantage of the mindless imbecile Julia in the POV is nothing to brag about. Although Jmac would be a popular winner for most, I’m in agreement with Michel that no other HG deserves the win more than her this season even though she’s not fooling Jmac, Austin & Liz with her paranoia, justicication-seeking, “masterful CRYING game.”

MAKEOVER GUY – Because no one comes close to Vanessa this week, I’ll give second place honors to the Makeover Man for doing an outstanding job on Liz. Had Ariana Grande knew of his talents before she went on her donut-licking spree, she would have had no scandal to answer to.

JOHNNY – He keeps on swinging but how many times will he be able to get up off the canvas? If he’s unable to survive proactively, i.e. win POV, he’s got a sporting chance convincing Austin/Liz that ignorant Steve is wrapped around Vanessa’s finger. If Steve wins POV, the ref will have to stop the fight for Jmac. Either way, an entertaining and good run for him which should result in the 25K fan award.

AUSTIN – As big as Vanessa’s HOH win was, Austin’s prior POV win may have been larger. So it’s rather ironic we hear him say BB is not about winning comps—a statement I’m sure gave Michel an orgasmic experience and maybe even inspired him to grow a ponytail beard of his own. Yet personally I do not see Austin advancing to the F2 UNLESS he wins at least one more comp. Kudos for pointing Vanessa’s way when Liz had to decide who to take on her luxury outing, although it would have been hysterical seeing Frankie hand Austin a box of Ariana’s new fragrance.

LIZ – She certainly deserved to last longer than her twin. Now part of the “obvious pair” a whisker away from advancing to the F4 and defying the logic of some viewers. Vanessa has indicated she may be leaning toward an all-female Finals, so being born with a vagina could earn Liz 50K.

STEVE – On Day 85 in the Diary of a Whimpy Boy, we saw a pathetic 22-year old crying for his Mommie in front of millions of viewers on prime time TV. Ahhh…Yeah…Dumba$$; Vanessa would be a “hypocrite” to not support your admissions during her inquisition. But we’re talking about the biggest two-faced, hypocritical liar of the season. To announce he’ll be seeing one of the twins in the Jury, pretty much confirms his primary objective was NOT to win the season. Vanessa is blessed to have him in her back pocket.

PRODUCTION – When one would think they can’t get any lower, involving Jesse and Frankie in back-to-back competitions pretty much was the last two shovelfuls into the manure pile. I would have really been ticked if we saw Frankie this season without any cameo of Derrick and/or Cody; but we did get to see them when Derrick complimented James gameplay earlier in the season.

EVICTED) JULIA – Her (and her sister’s) maturity level (or lack of it) came to the forefront when they were tripping over their tongues gawking at egotistic, mental-midget Jesse. As embarrassing as James would be at a strip club, Julia/Liz would be equally embarrassing at a Chippendale performance. She goes from mocking Austin and ransacking his personal belongings…to going along setting a place for him at their Christmas dinner…to having him as a potential brother-in-law. Talk about schizophrenia!!! But I do give her props for acknowledging Liz deserved to be there more than her.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 Not there yet, kingfish 09-15-15 1
   RE: Not there yet, Aruba 09-15-15 3
       RE: Not there yet, kingfish 09-15-15 6
           RE: Not there yet, michel2 09-15-15 7
               RE: Not there yet, kingfish 09-16-15 13
           RE: Not there yet, Aruba 09-15-15 9
               RE: Not there yet, kingfish 09-16-15 12
 RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-15-15 2
   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-15-15 4
       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-15-15 5
           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 kingfish 09-15-15 8
               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-15-15 11
               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-16-15 14
           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-15-15 10
               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-16-15 15
                   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-16-15 16
                       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-16-15 17
                           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 kingfish 09-17-15 18
                               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-17-15 19
                               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-17-15 21
                                   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-17-15 23
                                       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-18-15 24
                                           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-18-15 27
                                               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 kingfish 09-18-15 28
                                                   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-18-15 29
                                                       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 kingfish 09-19-15 30
                                                           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-19-15 31
                                                               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 kingfish 09-20-15 34
                                               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-20-15 33
                                                   Moral, Moral, Morals... michel2 09-20-15 36
                           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-17-15 20
                               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-17-15 22
                                   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-18-15 25
                                       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-18-15 26
                                           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 Aruba 09-20-15 32
                                               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12 michel2 09-20-15 35

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kingfish 18563 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 11:49 AM (EST)
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1. "Not there yet,"
LAST EDITED ON 09-15-15 AT 12:48 PM (EST)

But the finish is just around the corner.

And it's anybody's game. Even Liz or Austin could win if Vanessa keeps Austin tonite and either of them win the crucial next VETO.

Nightmare scenario. But it could happen.

It's still difficult for me to rank them. Likability? Game Play? Odds of winning?

I'll flip a three sided coin and lean toward Game Play, except for the ones I don't like.

I also want to compliment Aruba for including the makeup people. Liz was a knockout, and they actually made Duck Lips look good too. Great in fact.

Vanessa - Well established as the gamest game player this season. Can think several moves ahead, can interrogate the others, usually with success, can reason out what they mean when they say whatever they are saying, can spin whatever they say to her advantage, with her card trained memory she can remember every detail of her reads, she's an instinctive liar, and can blithely forget inconvenient facts and promises. And she can fill the air with so much verbiage that her target (Austin, Steve, Liz, Julia, whoever, except maybe John) gets confused and gives away his/her game.

Vanessa is likely to give an excellent F2 "why you should vote for me" speech. She could hypnotize a fence sitter, if there are any.

She's the ultimate player.

She's the most deserving based on her game play. Her social game is not as strong, but that to me underlines the fact that a great social game isn't that critical.

Johnny Mac - Counting up jury votes, he should win if he ends up sitting in front of the jury against anyone except Vanessa. With her next to him, he'd have to rely on votes from dedicated anti-Vanessa jurors. And who knows how many of those there are.

But he's played a resilient game and managed to take being nominated multiple times and surviving, often by winning BoBs and Vetos. He, more than anyone else, was resistant to persuasion by Vanessa. There were times when he mis-stepped, but he's survived with a reasonably good chance of winning. So I have to give him Game play kudos too.

Johnny could also give an entertaining end speech and make a persuasive case for himself.

Liz - She has played a moronic game. But what she has working for her is the ability to win challenges (yeah, that mystifies me too), she would be a good goat for Vanessa, Johnny (and maybe Steve? That would be kind of a goat tie), and she has Austin.

Some combination of those things could get her to F2, and against Steve and maybe Austin she could win.

Steve- This placement is based on my guess that Vanessa takes him to F4. Like Liz, Steve is goat material. He made two great moves, but the BB superfan also botched some possible critical moves this season, so I put his game play kinda low.

Counting Jury votes again, if his cards all fell right and he sat at F2 against John he would lose. Against Vanessa he would also lose. Against Liz or Austin, he might stand a chance, but he'd also probably lose. I just don't see many jury vote for him against anyone.

I cringe when I try to anticipate Steve's pathetic final speech.

Austin - I think Vanessa will break the next voting tie and boot him. He has some game play, and occasionally shows signs that he can see thru Vanessa's cloud of words, but ultimately he is just another fly in her web, maybe more vigorous, but against her he's just the next meal.

I have to give him credit for not being a goofball like Clay by saying he'd be willing to break from Liz (and Julia) if he had to in order to keep from being booted.

I don't think that Judas thing helped him at all. I think he's been playing to the TV audience all season (not rare among BB houseguests), which would actually be smart if he weren't so ham handed and clumsy. However, his time in the BB house was probably put to better use by trying to promote his Pro Wresting career, I think the money is better over there.

There are some (not me) who would be put off by his biblical reference, but they probably aren't watching anyway.

Lower than low on the list, Production -Again, I agree with Aruba. Why are they so fascinated with Jesse? Are they actually trying to alienate the TV audience? What a freaking dork.

Also Frankie, his sister's coattail is the only asset he has, I guess. He should have also taken advantage of the makeover artist, what a self-indulgent trainwreck.

I guess we should be thankful that Caleb didn't show up.

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Aruba 2294 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 07:34 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Not there yet,"
Unfortunately my take on the finish is much more anticlimactic than yours, especially if Jmac gets voted out tonight. I predicted early in the season when the Sixth Sense was dominating challenges someone from that alliance wins. That dominance allowed four of them to make the F6 and only Jmac will be able to prove me wrong at this point.

Also prior to the second DE I predicted if James does NOT win that HOH it’s clear sailing for Vanessa. The only feasible way I see Vanessa losing is if Jmac wins POV tonight and the next POV in the F4.

Actually I thought her social game was solid this season...although as a 30-some HG among one of (if not THE) youngest cast in BB history that serves as little surprise. She had favorable position all season. Sure some of it was her doing...but some of it was good fortune as well.

The main reason I rank Dan and Derrick high among previous winners is because both had the House fooled. HGs didn’t know what hit them until they went to Jury and collaborated with the others or on Finale Night when gameplay was revealed. In Vanessa’s case she’s not fooling most of the House but they went along with her because she was perceived as an appetizing meat shield or some other idiot managed to put a bigger target on themselves. Whatever the case, she played the best this season and deserves the win.

Jmac would give an over-the-top entertaining end speech to say the least, but I’m not sure his goofy demeanor would allow him to make a “why should you vote for me” persuasive case for himself. Voters would have to use the same criteria the Jurors in S21 used to give the win to Jud “Fabio.”

Steve and Austin have no chance to win in the Finals unless they both make the F2 where one would have to win out of default. If that scenario happens I’ll eat my hat...no, make that Judas’ hat.

The next voting boot (F4) not Vanessa nor anyone will break a tie. With HOH and two nominees, the one HG not nominated casts the sole vote for eviction—unless I’m missing something.

As for Production’s fascination with Jesse...I’m guessing since we got to drool over Britney when she came back a few weeks ago, they needed to give equal time and provide something for the Liz/Julia’s of the fan base.

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kingfish 18563 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 09:40 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Not there yet,"
John wins Veto, Vanessa puts Austin up. And I let that spoiler sneak into this thread. I apologize. That's the main sin on these boards, and I can't excuse it, I can only apologize.

Then my spec. was that Liz would vote to evict Steve, John would vote to evict Austin, and Vanessa would break the tie.

Now Vanessa is pretty vulnerable. Surely Steve will nominate her and Liz, and with Liz being the goat (she'll get two or three jury votes, I'm guessing) that she is, Vanessa will probably go home.

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michel2 1108 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 09:48 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Not there yet,"
I wanted to warn you about that spoiler but it would have simply attracted more attention to it.


The F4 nominations mean absolutely nothing. The veto will decide who goes home.

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kingfish 18563 desperate attention whore postings
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09-16-15, 09:40 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Not there yet,"
You're right.

On both points.

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Aruba 2294 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 10:53 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Not there yet,"
LAST EDITED ON 09-15-15 AT 11:16 PM (EST)

I honestly thought you were taking about the upcoming F4 eviction vote...It never dawned on me you accidentally spoiled, so no apology needed.

Michel's right...in F4 it all boils down to POV.

I don't see Liz as much as a goat as you do. The Jury is comprised mostly of females and if Liz is sitting next to any male, i.e. Jmac or Steve, she may get enough female votes to pull it off.

If Jmac is the F4 vote then Vanessa is quite vulnerable. Any other scenario and Vanessa is still sitting pretty the way I see it.

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kingfish 18563 desperate attention whore postings
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09-16-15, 09:36 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Not there yet,"
Thanks. I hope you aren't a west-coaster, and if so, I'm glad you missed it.

I agree, Liz isn't an automatic goat. But I think she leans goat. Goatish. Because she might get Jackie's vote, she might win against Steve.

I think, in the eyes of the jury, there are two stronger players (Vanessa and John) and two weaker players (Steve and Liz) remaining.

Premise 1: If the jury votes based on who played the better game, Vanessa, John, or Steve wins. I can't see Liz winning on that basis against anyone.

Premise 2: Voting based on who they like and who had a hand in their ouster. Even with Austin working the jury house, I see them broken into two groups;

Group 1 - Ousted by Austwin alliance:
Becky
James
Meg
Jackie (she might actually hold Steve responsible, but she's not an Austwin ally, so my guess is that she would vote with these guys.)

Group 2 - Aligned with Austwins:
Austin
Julia
Shelly

My Guess:

Either Vanessa, Steve or John would take Liz and get Group 1 votes. Liz would get Group 2 votes.

If Liz took Vanessa or John, she would be the goat. With Steve, it could be a tossup. Although she has expressed antipathy toward all three, she seems to be more against Sneaky Steve and John than Vanessa.

.

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michel2 1108 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 05:55 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
LAST EDITED ON 09-15-15 AT 06:22 PM (EST)

1 - Vanessa: I'll still put her up here even if she disappointed me a lot this week. First, she had positioned herself ideally where she was in the middle of two rival pairs so she could have thrown the HoH competition. Granted, Jmac was right behind her and she trusts him the least so it would have been risky. Still, I would have thought she'd have risked it for bigger rewards down the road. If only Austin had kept up.

Secondly, why would she tell Steve that she beats Johnny in front of the jury? Not only is that uncertain but, at this point, she should want to paint HERSELF as the one that the jury hates.

Next, and this one was hard to watch: Why didn't she nominate one from each pair? She could have persuaded each that they were pawns and she could have waited for veto to decide which way to go. If things had worked, she could have waited for Julie to ask her to break the tie to show her hand. A good poker player should know that sometimes it is best to wait for the river card at the very end to make the big move.


2 - Austin: It was his great connection with Vanessa that secured the Austwins' safety all the way to Final 6. He was the only one that could partially follow her train of thoughts and could actually bounce ideas back to her. Yes, he is boorish and I don't know how Liz succumbed to his "charms" but he definietely played the second best game this season. Far, far behind Vanessa but still noteworthy.

3 - Johnny: I laughed when I read that you think he is able to read Vanessa. He DR'ed that he was glad that Vanessa won HoH because she'd keep him safe. Little did he know that he was her main target! He is still a fun character but I can't root for someone that needed to go to BB's version of Redemption Island to have a chance.

4 - Steve: The super fan thinks he is now turning into a big player but his game still needs a lot of vitamins before it can match with the top two players of this season. I don't think he could make a winning argument. His only chance would be for someone to completely fall apart in answering the jury.

5 - Liz: She truly rode on Vanessa's coattails because it was the poker's player game plan that kept her and her twin safe this long. She played a passable game mostly because she wasn't complicating things needlessly. Everyone knew where she stood so she wasn't the threat she should have been to really smart players. Her amicability could earn her enough votes to win, especially if Austin joins Julia on the jury.

Evicted - Julia: She added a few funny moments to the season but she never played her own game. It would have been so much more fun if she had worked to get Austin booted at some point...

As for production, it's nothing new to see them bringing back past losers. It usually makes me cringe but Jessie made Austin jealous and that was kind of amusing.

PS. James was a moron and it's funny that you use Derrick's remark as a crutch to support an argument that you lost weeks ago!

PPS. The social game is everything, Kingfish. Don't confuse being sociable with having a social game. I mean, we've seen many sociable people make it far and even win against those that have atrocious social skills but that doesn't mean they have a "social-game". A social game allows a player to get close enough to others that he can earn their trust. Then, he can use that trust to his own benefit. In that sense, Vanessa had a tremendous social game.

Maybe she showed paranoia more than she should but paranoia is an essential quality in games like these. At the end of my first on-line game, I read the confessionals of the season's winner and I remember commenting: "I don't know if I could be paranoid enough to win a game like this..." It's hard to play with people you get to know and still not trust them but that's really what you have to do.

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Aruba 2294 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 07:51 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
It’s tough to second guess Vanessa going for the HOH win. If Austin was way behind Jmac, then you make a good case. But if she throws it and Jmac drops an egg allowing Austin to win the comp, she’s very much as risk. There’s a good chance Austin puts her up. Even if he initially puts up Jmac/Steve, should one of them win POV, he ABSOLUTELY puts up Vanessa over Liz and the Poker Player takes her game to the jury house. Too much left to chance.

Also it's always been my personal opinion when you get to the F6 I put more of a premium on POVs over HOHs.

In the F5 I'm not a fan of putting up one from each pair. As F5 HOH I think she needs to take a stand and choose a side, so putting up Jmac and Steve was the right choice. Now if either wins POV, she’s in a pickle, but she could prevent that by winning POV herself.

Great catch on telling Steve she beats Jmac in the Finals. Ill advised to say the least. Her salvation is it’s Steve we’re talking about so it could end up as no-harm, no-foul.

Let’s not confuse being able to read Vanessa with not having access to that infamous “crystal ball.” Kingfish and I have definitely been watching the same season when he accurately assessed Jmac as “being most resistant to Vanessa’s persuasion.” THAT’S where I’m coming from when I say he’s able to read Vanessa. Both pairs Jmac/Steve and Austin/Liz had optimistic reason to feel Vanessa would target the other pair based on pure circumstance.

My argument was not lost on James weeks ago. It was around that same time when you counterpointed my argument by saying something to the effect...”If it was said then it must be true.” Well we heard Derrick say it. Now if he said it about someone YOU liked then you would have taken it as truth. But because it was someone you didn’t like you (not surprisingly) spin it as some tainted force-fed statement.

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michel2 1108 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 09:37 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
LAST EDITED ON 09-15-15 AT 09:41 PM (EST)

>It’s tough to second guess Vanessa
>going for the HOH win.
>If Austin was way behind
>Jmac, then you make a
>good case. But if she
>throws it and Jmac drops
>an egg allowing Austin to
>win the comp, she’s very
>much as risk. There’s a
>good chance Austin puts her
>up. Even if he initially
>puts up Jmac/Steve, should one
>of them win POV, he
>ABSOLUTELY puts up Vanessa over
>Liz and the Poker Player
>takes her game to the
>jury house. Too much left
>to chance.

If you were paying attention, Austin clearly said he was taking Vanessa to the end numerous times. Johnny was the dangerous one. That's why SHE said he was her main target.


>Also it's always been my personal
>opinion when you get to
>the F6 I put more
>of a premium on POVs
>over HOHs.

When you get to the end, it usually is a good idea to win everything you can but I thought Vanessa had a chance to work around that rule and improve her chances.

>In the F5 I'm not a
>fan of putting up one
>from each pair. As F5
>HOH I think she needs
>to take a stand and
>choose a side, so putting
>up Jmac and Steve was
>the right choice. Now if
>either wins POV, she’s in
>a pickle, but she could
>prevent that by winning POV
>herself.

You should think about that again. There would have been no pickle no matter who wins Veto and she had the chance to keep her plan secret longer.

>Great catch on telling Steve she
>beats Jmac in the Finals.
>Ill advised to say the
>least. Her salvation is it’s
>Steve we’re talking about so
>it could end up as

Thank you!

>Let’s not confuse being able to
>read Vanessa with not having
>access to that infamous “crystal
>ball.” Kingfish and I have
>definitely been watching the same
>season when he accurately assessed
>Jmac as “being most
>resistant to Vanessa’s persuasion.”
>THAT’S where I’m coming from
>when I say he’s able
>to read Vanessa. Both pairs
>Jmac/Steve and Austin/Liz had optimistic
>reason to feel Vanessa would
>target the other pair based
>on pure circumstance.

Johnny was Vanessa's main target and he had been talking to her for days but didn't sniff anything. That's bad. A player needs to be aware of the dangers.

>My argument was not lost on
>James weeks ago. It was
>around that same time when
>you counterpointed my argument by
>saying something to the effect...”If
>it was said then it
>must be true.” Well we
>heard Derrick say it. Now
>if he said it about
>someone YOU liked then you
>would have taken it as
>truth. But because it was
>someone you didn’t like you
>(not surprisingly) spin it as
>some tainted force-fed statement.

I can't understand why I even have to explain this...I believe what the PLAYERS say. Before his first eviction, Vanessa told Johnny that she wanted to work with him and then told us THE SAME THING in the DR. I believe she was being honest. You chose to go with your own opinion, dismissing her words. That's like writing a fan fiction.

In case you don't know, Derrick ISN'T A PLAYER IN THIS SEASON. What he says is just an opinion, just like yours and mine. He happened to be wrong just like you! James played like a moron and the events showed clearly it.

PS. Without revealing anything in case we have West Coasters reading this before the show airs in their time zone, I believe the outcome of the F4 HOH proved that BB has Mickey Mouse challenges. The winner admitted winning by mistake!

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kingfish 18563 desperate attention whore postings
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09-15-15, 09:51 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
LAST EDITED ON 09-16-15 AT 09:37 AM (EST)

You're better man than I am as far as keeping spoilers out of the thread.

Saving grace? It's just me, you and Aruba.

BTW, Players lie. It depends on where and when and to whom players say what they say as to whether I might believe it. And no matter who she's talking to, even in the DR, I could never rely on what Vanessa says to have any connection with any truth.


Another definition of fan (fanatic?) fiction is what ever comes out of Vanessa's mouth,

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09-15-15, 11:15 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
Hey Kingfish...are you a carpenter by trade?

Because you pretty much NAILED it with your post!

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14. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
Of course, Vanessa lies. I don't think she lied in the DR though and the reason why I believe her is extremely simple: She DID play with Johnny as soon as he returned. She even said that she had been waiting to play with him for a long time. Why then even doubt that her first offer was a lie?
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09-15-15, 11:13 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
Of course a HG will saying anything the HOH wants to hear. Kingfish said it as accurately and explicated as can be--PLAYERS LIE. And some lie exceedingly more than other players--enter Vanessa. Nuff Said.

Let's keep it simple and factual...Winning the F5 HOH automatically gets her to the F4. There's not a whole lot to "think about" with that scenario.

So if Johnny is not a mind reader or riddled with paranoia, that's bad. LOL TOOOO Funny!

Vanessa's masterful CRYING game is getting so nauseating to watch. And Jmac has been sniffing it ALL season--long before Zingbot confirmed that fact.

If you truly believe what players say...especially lying sacks of "you know what" like Vanessa, you'll continue to need to explain to me and pretty much anyone else who sees an overwhelming majority of players as the lying scoundrels they really are.

I thought it was a good F4 competition testing to see which HG paid attention best throughout the season. It's too bad it came down to that tiebreaker; but just because Steve advances to the F3 thanks to "ignorance being bliss" I wouldn't classify that entire comp as "Mickey Mouse."

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09-16-15, 04:20 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
LAST EDITED ON 09-16-15 AT 04:24 PM (EST)

I have a question for you, Aruba: Since you loathe Vanessa so much, why is she on top of your love list?

I know, I know, you will say that you can separate your feelings from analyzing game play but then why even call it a "LOVE" list?

I have a solution to your problem. Rename the thread next time. Here are two suggestions:

- "The Contenders and the Failures."

or

- "The Good, the Bad and the Boring."

Either would work for me.

As for players lying, of course they do but Vanessa wasn't lying when she said she wanted to play with Johnny mac because she actually played with him when the dumba$$ came to his senses and accepted her offer! You can't deny that...

As for your post, you wrote:

"Let's keep it simple and factual...Winning the F5 HOH automatically gets her to the F4. There's not a whole lot to "think about" with that scenario."

Actually there is a LOT to think about in this scenario:

Remember a week or so ago, you wrote that it would be clear sailing for Vanessa if she got rid of James? If anything, her road to the end has gotten MUCH more complicated since then. Why? Because she won the F5 HOH!

Had Jmac or Austin won and targeted their rival pair, Vanessa would still be sitting pretty AND she could have played for the F4 HoH. Yes, there was a risk that she could have been evicted last night but the odds of that were Much Lower than the odds she faces tonight. For a poker player who could be sunk at any time by the wrong river card, I thought she should have played the odds and run the risk of throwing the F5 HoH.

John is unable to formulate a coherent plan (Thinking of throwing the F5 Veto is even dumber than Coughlin telling Jennings NOT to score a TD in the game against Dallas) and he got completely fooled by Vanessa. So yes, that is extremely bad. Had John been more paranoid, he wouldn't have been so foolish. In Survivor, Tony was paranoid and that's what got him to the end.

I truly believe what the players say when it matches with their actions. You should learn that rule.

It was a dumb F4 competition like any True or False questionaire where players have a 50/50 chance of winning by simply guessing. Most of their answers were pure guesses anyway. And then Steven won because his answer was off by a factor of 10 to the number he wanted to write. Too funny! If he wins, maybe will omit a zero in his check!!

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09-16-15, 07:38 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
You answered your own question. Unlike many, I am able to separate a player who is despicable by simply being who they truly are from their ability to play the game well because, or in spite of, their despicable nature.

I loathe the fact that Vanessa is a lying sack of sh!t and a two-faced hypocrite, but we have no choice but to call a spade a spade and acknowledge she’s played the best overall game this season thus her ranking.

I’ve resided myself to the fact that a Tom Westman-like player who can win the game by dominating the season while displaying high integrity is the rarest of rarities thanks to the type of individuals Production casts, thus I have little choice but to endorse that separation in my assessments.

With all that said, your point is well stated and has merit. So for future seasons I will title the list:

The Good, the Bad, and the Boring

There are two issues with Vanessa: She’s a habitual liar and she’s a hypocrite. Yes, at any immediate point in time Vanessa may not be lying when she was talking to Jmac, but no way she truly meant it for the game. Even as I type this post I’m not believing either has any intention of taking the other to the end. Jmac went along with Vanessa when he felt she needed him as much as he needed her at a specific point in time...not because he just so happened to come to his senses. Unless there’s a mutual benefit for both, anyone who is on to the type of lying hypocrite she is shouldn’t go all in with a Vanessa deal.

Hey, if they end up taking each other to the end next week then I've been proven wrong and I’ll stand corrected...but if they don’t, my case has been stated.

The only reason her game became complicated was because Jmac won POV, but you can’t count on that one way or the other when competing in HOH...unless you have Kingfish’s crystal ball. But to play your hypothetical game, had Austin targeted his rivals Jmac/Steve, Jmac still wins POV and Austin replaces him with Vanessa because no way he puts Liz on the block. Now THAT would have been MUCH more complicated for her. Anyway you wish to spin it, winning F5 HOH automatically puts her in the F4 and right now anything other than Jmac winning another POV, Vanessa has it in the bag.

There’s no question in my mind Jmac pitched the idea to Austin/Liz about throwing the POV BEFORE the comp in the event it was a comp he had no chance to win or performed poorly he could have that to fall back on. It was fortunate for him Steve was close to solving the puzzle giving him an out. It would have been very interesting if Steve was out of the race and Liz was Johnny’s only competition. That’s the only way we would have known for sure what Jmac’s intentions truly were.

Tony in Survivor made it to the end because while the other social butterflies were pow-wowing in the ocean and engaging in the “social game” same fans covet, Tony was searching harder than anyone else finding HHIs he was able to use to his advantage thus taking him to the end.

If you want to believe players when it matches their actions, then knock yourself out, Kiddo!

Here’s MY rule: I truly believe what a player says when it matches their nature. Perhaps that’s a rule YOU should consider learning.

I disagree most of Steve and John’s answers in the F4 HOH were “pure guesses.” Yes there were a couple they deliberated on; but I recall most of the answers being turned quite quickly indicating they were astute enough to remember them from during the season. But that’s just my observation.

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17. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
LAST EDITED ON 09-16-15 AT 09:25 PM (EST)


Since the West Coasters won't be seeing this episode's conclusion before midnight, I won't comment on it but I do want to answer some of your points.

First, thank you for taking my suggestion! I think the thread will feel more adequate.

Next, I want to state that BB and Survivor are amoral games. That's why I don't judge the nature of the players. You are really caught up with morals that simply don't belong in a game like this.

Also, you have to admit that Palau didn't test Tom's morality very much. He went to only 1 Tribal Council before Steph joined Koror and Willard was really an easy boot. After, he had immunity most of the times so he didn't have to scramble much. I know you will refuse to consider anything that taints Tom's image so let's not linger on the times I feel he didn't show high integrity. Just consider that, in my opinion, these games are amoral. I don't mean immoral: Amoral.

I'll state it again: Vanessa's game got complicated when she won HoH. If Austin had won HoH and Jmac had won veto, then she would have gone up but Austin would have cast the tie-breaking vote, evicting Steve for his betrayal. If Jmac had won both HoH and Veto, the result would have been the same as what we saw: Austin would have been evicted.

As for John's idiotic idea of throwing the Veto, you are forgetting that he told us AFTER winning it that he truly wanted to throw it if Steve hadn't been so close. It wasn't just an out, it was his plan and it showed his lack of logic.

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09-17-15, 11:56 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
I also like that suggestion. Gives us more ways to argue why I'm right.

Just taking a moment to say how much I enjoyed John and Vanessa's Bamboozlement of Austin. A definite highlight. A nod to Steve and editing also for their parts.

I think John was just screwing with Liz and Austin, and later with us. He just couldn't have been stupid enough to seriously consider throwing that Veto, no matter what he said, or when, or to whom. He can't have missed the fact that having that veto was miles better than depending on someone else to keep him. There has to be some limit to Vanessa's powers of hypnosis.

I might take a claim by him to that effect seriously if, after all the chips have fallen in this game, he still claims that that was a possibility. Then, I will add The Stupid category, and include that aborted move of John's there.

.

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09-17-15, 04:16 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
Like I stated above, the best thing to do in order to verify if a player is lying even in the DR is to look at his actions. Jmac had the best tactic for that competition since he didn't have to worry about the magnetic board. Still, we saw him look over at Steve's board every time he came back to push his button. He only started to assemble his puzzle when he saw that Steve was making good progress. I believe he was that stupid.
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09-17-15, 07:40 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
Yes Kingfish, Austin’s departure was epic and hopping out of the BB Limo and into the Jury House barefooted was the icing on the cake. My one comment on his eviction...when Julie announced a tie his body language, demeanor, and facial expression KNEW right then and there that Vanessa would evict him as the tie-breaker even before Vanessa officially casted her fatal vote. I honestly believe the tie was more of a blindside than two-faced, hypocritical Vanessa delivering the verdict. With that said it seems that Jmac got off pretty easy with Austin.

Jmac stated in the DR before the comp about the subject of throwing the POV if it was a competition he would not be good at, he’d probably lose it “legitimately.” If that was the case then Jmac would have covered himself nicely with Austin/Liz by telling them beforehand he’d throw it.

During the comp he was looking at EVERYONE’S board, not only Steve’s. Steve and Liz were BOTH making good progress with their puzzles so Johnny had a perfect out. The only way his “actions” would have verified if he was serious about throwing it was if Steve was out of contention and Jmac had a sizable lead on Liz/Austin, then proceeded to tank the comp. But that didn’t happen so we’ll never know for sure, so I’m sticking to my guns by saying he had no intention of throwing it.

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09-17-15, 08:16 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
I get it, Aruba. You don't listen to players when they don't say what you want to hear!
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09-18-15, 04:51 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
I listened to Jmac when he explained the POV could be a competition not in his strike zone, and should he proceed to lose it "legitimately" he could always have his pitch to Austin/Liz about "throwing" the comp to fall back on.

I also listened to him after the comp when he appropriately used Steve coming close to taking the POV as an out to Austin for not "throwing" the comp.

In both cases it has nothing to do with what I "wanted to hear" and everything to do with what was said. You should know by now most everything any player says has some kind of ulterior motive to it...in Jmac's case his ulterior motive to telling Austin he'd throw the comp was to hopefully get in his good graces should he lose it legitimately.

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09-18-15, 04:22 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
John told Julie that he is illogical at times. That is his NATURE. You should stop trying to see logic when there wasn't any.

John was a moron in this game. It's funny to note all the dentists, doctors and engineers who have failed miserably at these games. The best players are housewives, used car salesmen, undercover cops and, quite surprisingly, bridal shop owners.

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09-18-15, 05:01 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
And...Poker Players!

(But not dealers).

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09-18-15, 10:03 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
Well...there was Jean Robert! So 50/50!
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09-19-15, 08:11 AM (EST)
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30. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
LAST EDITED ON 09-19-15 AT 05:35 PM (EST)

(Correction;)

Good Poker players.

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31. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
I don't follow poker so I wouldn't know if either are good but I'm curous. Is JR still playing? Is she really good?
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09-20-15, 11:28 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
I watched JR on play poker on TV after he came on Survivor, and he seemed average. And pretty much as self inflated as he was on Survivor.

Career winnings $1,370,000, was ranked as high as 65th. Which actually isn't too bad. Made one final table. Is a night club owner. I imagine he's still playing.

She is in the upper echelons of female players. Career winnings $3,475,000, been playing since mid-2000's. Has endorsement deals, most notably with Go-Daddy.

Both have won several hundred thousand dollars at times in poker tournaments.

A telling quote from her taken from an ESPN article when taking about her then-(male) husband's cancer "Just like in poker, (battling cancer) is a game of incomplete information,..".

.

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09-20-15, 07:28 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
>John told Julie that he is
>illogical at times. That is
>his NATURE. You should
>stop trying to see logic
>when there wasn't any.

Once again, using your spin you create something twisted. Yes, Julie used words like “irrational” and “illogical” when questioned Jmac. His DIRECT answer to the Chenbot’s loaded question was he did what he needed to do “to cover his bases should he lose a POV.” BINGO…exactly what I stated as to why he proposed throwing the POV to Austin BEFORE the comp even started. And I didn’t need any stinking spoilers to nail that! HaHa.

It was later in the interview when she asked if he really lives his life the way he lived in the House. It was YOU who spinfully incorporated “illogical” in his answer. Nice try…no cigar. So because he not a pathetically vile hypocritical lying garbage mouth like Vanessa, that makes him a “moron.” Now THAT’S too funny.


>John was a moron in this
>game. It's funny to
>note all the dentists, doctors
>and engineers who have failed
>miserably at these games.
>The best players are housewives,
>used car salesmen, undercover cops
>and, quite surprisingly, bridal shop
>owners.

Really? What about your boy DR Will? Many similar like professionals have fared exceptionally well in Reality Shows. Sophie winner of S23 is a Med School graduate. Rachel is a chemist. Yul is a lawyer. Denise winner of S23 is a Doctor (Psychiatrist), Cochran (S26 winner) graduated Hardvard Law, and so on, and so, on.

The thing is if you are a professional back at home you need to be more conscious of your actions in the game. Jmac has a Dental Practice he has to return to so no way he could be the vile individual Vanessa is by nature. As long as Vanessa can continue to make a comfortable living sitting at Poker Tables and as long as Mel wants to continue riding her gravy train, it’s no skin off her nose being the lying two-faced, dirty, vulgar person she is.

And why would it be surprising a Bridal Shop owner excels well in deceiving others??? They have to convince young people it would be better off pissing away tens of thousands of dollars on a one-day elaborate party instead of taking a more practical approach and using that same money on a down payment for a home they could enjoy for LIFE. So deceiving the mental-midgeted idiotic morons Production usually casts for these shows is a walk in the park by comparison.

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09-20-15, 12:28 PM (EST)
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36. "Moral, Moral, Morals..."
I find it hilarious that you have to use Rachel and Cochran to try to make a point! Rachel and Cochran were HUGE MORONS in their first season. The funny part is that YOU don't count seasons with returning players. Apparently they suddenly count when you are desperate.

Yes, Dr Will is an exception, it doesn't salvage the humiliating record left by Kenniff, Bilancione and many others like Mick.

While Yul was a lawyer, he never even had to play the game. What about other lawyers like Willard, Caryn to name just those two from your favorite season? You know, the one that was full of quiters, mactors and dumbasses like those two LAWYERS.

You write: "The thing is if you are a professional back at home you need to be more conscious of your actions in the game."

But that's not true at all. They do have to be careful about making racists or homophobic comments but not about their game play. Why? Because the game is amoral. One person that ran into big trouble for her actions in the house was a MODEL. Not a doctor, or a lawyer or an engineer. A young, uneducated MODEL and it wasn't because of her game at all.

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09-17-15, 07:36 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
Now that the episode is over I will repeat my prior statement:

If they end up taking each other to the end next week then I've been proven wrong and I’ll stand corrected...but if they don’t, my case has been stated.

The episode verified each had absolutely NO intentions of taking the other to the end, so all this deal schmeal nonsense was just a bunch of donkey’s dust as I’ve (and Kingfish)stated before.

I get what you’re saying about being “amoral” games and I don’t ever expect a cast of alter boys and choir girls casted for any Reality Show. That being said, my point is you have some players who are so over-the-top hypocritical and lying they bring despicable to another level.

The reason Westman only went to one TC was because (mostly due to him) his tribe dominated challenges. Same thing after the merge, but given his status as a husband and father as well as his service to community as a firefighter, there’s no way Tom would be immoral on any Reality Show. I can only image how you might go through great lengths to apply your PhD in Spinology in a futile attempt to try to paint Tom as immoral, but you’re right in saying your attempt would be futile in my eyes.

Once again, Vanessa’s game got complicated when John won POV. Your hypothetical situation may have come to be…but then again it may not have. Winning F5 HOH puts her in the F4 which was the primary objective for that week.

In the final analysis it wasn’t logic, lack of logic, or any similar bogus hocus-pocus that was the determining factor for the final outcome this season—it was the F4 POV plain and simple. Had Jmac won, Vanessa’s out the door and Jmac is sitting pretty. A Vanessa win sent Jmac to Jury and it’s now clear sailing for her. All your spin and twist cannot dispute that simple fact.

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22. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
I never said that Vanessa wanted to take Jmac to the end BUT she did work with him to get rid of 2/3 of the Austwins. That's much more than what any returnee usually get. John wasn't boomeranged right back to jury BECAUSE Vanessa truly wanted to work with him...up to a point!

CQFD

The primary objective is to win the $500K and you just wrote it: Vanessa was out the door if she hadn't won POV. Yet, not too long ago, you wrote she'd have clear sailing after James left. See how it got complicated very quickly! Winning HOH forced her to show her hand one round too early. Did you hear Steve say that he also wanted her gone? That would NEVER have happened if Vanessa hadn't nominated him. In other words, Vanessa would never have lost her puppy dog if she hadn't won F5 HoH.

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09-18-15, 05:20 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
LAST EDITED ON 09-18-15 AT 05:38 AM (EST)

When Jmac won his way back into the House there were bigger fishes to fry...namely the James/Meg duo and the Austwins. THAT'S the reason he was not initially targeted upon his return.

When Johnny was the last Jury member remaining and he knew he was back in, he dropped allowing Vanessa to win HOH so technically it was Johnny showing he truly wanted to work with Vanessa because it become a situation where it was mutually beneficial for BOTH having the same objective to target the two non-secret alliances.

Yes when James was unable to win the DE HOH, at that point it became Vanessa's game to lose. I STILL stand by that prediction. Here's why: The ONLY scenario that could have prevented that would be Jmac winning BOTH the F5 AND F4 POVs. Could that have happened? Sure, ANYTHING'S possible, but I do not regard that ONE ripple in the water as a "complicated" situation.

Situations can become "complicated" when things are out of your control. At the stage of the game when everyone participates in the POV it was VERY much in Vanessa's control to prevent that one longshot ripple from occurring. It's called--WINNING POV. To her credit that's exactly what she did and kudos to her. Had she allowed Jmac to pull off that one longshot and end her game it would NOT have been because of any "complication"...it would be because she failed and lost control of the situation.

Vanessa never lost her "puppy dog." Steve would want Jmac eliminated before Vanesssa because there's no way he beats Jmac in the Finals. Steve would have nominated Jmac and Vanessa either way which doesn't matter a whole lot because in the F4 it all comes down to the POV anyway.

Actually Steve may have done her a great service by nominating her because should she win the 3-part final competition, she could apply HER PhD in Spinology and "justify" not taking him to the Finals because he nominated her in the F4. A justification that would work on her "puppy dog" and probably still secure his jury vote.

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26. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
LAST EDITED ON 09-18-15 AT 04:34 PM (EST)

>When Jmac won his way back
>into the House there were
>bigger fishes to fry...namely the
>James/Meg duo and the Austwins.
>THAT'S the reason he was
>not initially targeted upon his
>return.

Exactly!! Now all you have to do is ask yourself: WHO wanted to fry those big fishes? The answer is simple: Vanessa!! James and Austin had just made an agreement, planning to go to the F5 with Meg and the twins. That's right, that moron James wanted to go to the F5 with the threesome, putting him in a near no-win position. Anyway, back to John and Vanessa. If you remember, John had just been the "fried fish", evicted minutes before because Austin wanted him gone. If he wasn't boomeranged in the next couple of rounds, it was ONLY because Vanessa managed to turn Austin against James. I hope you get it now.


>When Johnny was the last Jury
>member remaining and he knew
>he was back in, he
>dropped allowing Vanessa to win
>HOH so technically it was
>Johnny showing he truly wanted
>to work with Vanessa because
>it become a situation where
>it was mutually beneficial for
>BOTH having the same objective
>to target the two non-secret
>alliances.

Of course, John HAD to show some trust to Vanessa. He had been the one repeatedly refusing her offers to work together. The guy's a moron but he was still able to see that winning HOH was only a one week reprieve while working with Vanessa (who reiterated that offer once more JUST BEFORE John was first evicted) could earn him much more time.


>Yes when James was unable to
>win the DE HOH, at
>that point it became Vanessa's
>game to lose. I STILL
>stand by that prediction. Here's
>why: The ONLY scenario
>that could have prevented that
>would be Jmac winning BOTH
>the F5 AND F4 POVs.
>Could that have happened? Sure,
>ANYTHING'S possible, but I do
>not regard that ONE ripple
>in the water as a
>"complicated" situation.

One ripple? Too funny! Vanessa was in an ideal situation before the F5 HoH. She didn't need to win it because John or Austin would most likely have been evicted. Sure there were risks but MUCH LESS than the ones she faced during Steve's F4 HoH.

>Vanessa never lost her "puppy dog."
>Steve would want Jmac eliminated
>before Vanesssa because there's no
>way he beats Jmac in
>the Finals.

Do you listen when the players give DR confessionals? STEVE was adamant: He wanted John to win so that they could evict Vanessa. That pretty much told us that he wasn't her "puppy dog" anymore

ETA: I took this from Jims' observation of the Live feeds. It should prove to you that Vanessa was indeed working with John:


"The F4 POV... the days are something Vanessa has been Jedi drilling for weeks and weeks and weeks and would probably be her strongest possible Veto comp... Ironically, and almost fatally, when Vanessa started working with John, she started teaching him the days, and remarked how much better he was getting at them..."


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Aruba 2294 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"

09-20-15, 07:00 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
32. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
Responding to your spins has gone from entertaining to downright hysterical!

Vanessa didn’t create any targets on James/Meg and the Austwins...they are did it to themselves and became “bigger fish to fry” without any intervention from Vanessa.

The reason I tagged it a “ripple” is because no “complication” occurred that was out of her control. By being able to proactively take charge of her own fate ,i.e. winning competitions, it was only a ripple.

I’m REALLY hoping Steve wins the three-part final competition because if he ends up taking Vanessa to the Finals it will confirm that Vanessa NEVER lost her puppy dog…just like my case being proven last week when Vanessa and Jmac had NOOO intention of taking each other to the Finals. Further proof deals and working together mean absolutely nothing when it involved the most hypocritical potty-mouthed liar in the House.

Teaching Jmac the days??? Really? Oh , please don’t tell me...the infamous spoilers are whatever you want to call them. As I stated weeks ago, throwing that nonsense my way in a meager attempt to support your analysis holds no water with me.

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michel2 1108 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest"

09-20-15, 12:11 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #12"
It's not spin, it's what happened in the house. Too bad you missed it all!
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