The Amazing Race   American Idol   The Apprentice   The Bachelor   The Bachelorette   Big Brother   The Biggest Loser
Dancing with the Stars   So You Think You Can Dance   Survivor   Top Model   The Voice   The X Factor       Reality TV World
   
Stop WAR in Ukraine ! http://twitter.com/@euromaidan
PLEASE NOTE: The Reality TV World Message Boards are filled with desperate attention-seekers pretending to be one big happy PG/PG13-rated family. Don't be fooled. Trying to get everyone to agree with you is like herding cats, but intolerance for other viewpoints is NOT welcome and respect for other posters IS required at all times. Jump in and play, and you'll soon find out how easy it is to fit in, but save your drama for your mama. All members are encouraged to read the complete guidelines. As entertainment critic Roger Ebert once said, "If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way."
"Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic
Bookmark this topic (Registered users only)
 
Previous Topic | Next Topic 
Conferences Big Brother Bashers Forum (Protected)
Original message

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-20-15, 07:31 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
"Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
LAST EDITED ON 07-20-15 AT 07:36 PM (EST)

So you win a party with Gronk by being fortunate enough to walk up to a cup with the winning token??? WTF!!! At least award the prize to the one who chugs the fastest...it’s a party with Gronk for crying out loud!

JOHN – I guess I’ll have to invest in a set of earplugs because, as annoying as he sounds, he deserves to be at the top of the ranking. No one is even a close second to his DR confessions. Solid back-to-back POV wins...could we be treated to a threepeat? I don’t blame him for going into a crowded shower wearing gym shorts and a hoodie. If the shower party lasted more than 30 seconds and I was pressed up against the likes of Shelli, Liz, Jackie, and Becky’s boobies, I’d be fully clothed as well...for obvious reason.

SHELLI – Second HOH win this season...technically back-to-back because of the dumbass rule preventing the current HOH from being able to defend their title. Her two wins are a big reason for the Sixth Sense dominance. Although the first week someone from her alliance does not have the power, Shelli and Clay are slam dunk nominees. BTW...Broadway won’t be calling anytime soon.

AUSTIN – Second week in a row he controlled who went home from behind the scenes. Handled Vanessa’s hypocritical blowup about as well as can be expected. With Shelli as HOH he can breathe easy for another week. Like Derrick did last season with free agent Victoria, Austin’s idea with Jackie was a good one; but his execution wasn’t.

LIZ – Guaranteed another week and only one last hurdle to clear before her twin sister can officially join the game and solidify the Sixth Sense. Her “fourth vote” for Jeff caused a buzz in the House and props for her performance in the HOH competition.

JASON – Major kudos for reading into Austin’s lies. Has a good head for the game of BB. Unfortunately he’s on the wrong side of the House.

VANESSA – Had to drop her because of her hypocritical rant on Austin for throwing the POV when SHE threw it as well. Fortunately she can lay back this week and hopefully cool down a bit. Still a very smart player in the game as long as her emotions don’t get the better half of her.

MEG – Much to James chagrin, she’s light years away from “smoke bomb” status, but I have to admit she’s growing on me some. I still contend her advancement will mirror a Spenser or Victoria scenario, but the major difference is she possesses more effervescent personality in her pinky nail than Spenser/Victoria combined.

JAMES– Dropping him for being too overconfident while on the block and doing little campaigning. Maybe the 7-4 vote could be his wake-up call. Yes, Jeff’s boneheadedness saved his hide, but he needs to pucker up and give Johnny Mac a big sloppy kiss. Had Johnny not won the POV and the nominations stayed the same, James walks out the door.

STEVE – I don’t blame him for not wanting to get caught up in all the immature nonsensical antics. But it’s what he signed up for and if he really wants to make a serious run at it he’ll need to get with the program.

CLAY – Fortunately for him there’s a cougar in the House. Thus far he’s been the worse challenge performer in his alliance. Who would have thunk it?

AUDREY – The game she’s playing has allowed her to advance, but I don’t see her winning. Still unpopular and unaligned. I figured her time might run out around Jury sequester, but beginning to think maybe sooner.

JACKIE – Only reason she’s not last is she did (with James) buy herself another week with the BOB win. As bad as Austin’s execution was to pick up the free agent, Jackie’s was just as bad ratting out Austin.

BECKY – Even though she’s last I do not loathe her at all, but she was a non-factor all week. Maybe she was using Kathy Griffin’s “gift” and getting some Beauty Sleep? Although that’s not totally correct...during one of Gronk’s parties her oversized plastic boobies did get three seconds of air time.

EVICTED) JEFF – Hey, the guy went down fighting and actually made a vote of it. It would have been a kick if he pulled it off just to witness a Vanessa meltdown on a major scale. On second thought...maybe not.

  Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 kingfish 07-21-15 1
   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-21-15 2
       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 kingfish 07-21-15 5
           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-22-15 7
   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-21-15 4
       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 kingfish 07-21-15 6
 RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-21-15 3
   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-22-15 8
       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-22-15 10
           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-22-15 13
               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-22-15 14
                   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-23-15 17
   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 kingfish 07-22-15 9
       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-22-15 11
       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-22-15 12
           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-22-15 15
               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-23-15 18
                   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-23-15 20
                       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 kingfish 07-24-15 22
                           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-24-15 23
                               RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-26-15 25
                                   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-26-15 26
                       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-26-15 24
                           RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 michel2 07-26-15 27
 RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 kingfish 07-23-15 16
   RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 Aruba 07-23-15 19
       RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4 kingfish 07-24-15 21

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Messages in this topic

kingfish 18425 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

07-21-15, 11:51 AM (EST)
Click to EMail kingfish Click to send private message to kingfish Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
1. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
We seem to be out of lockstep this week, but based on my past record of reality show guessing, that should be of some comfort for you. Sigh.

Top of the list: no one stands out to me as truly deserving of the top spot this week, but we have to go with what we have.

Shelli – Player. Has positioned herself well, won two HoHs, and has had good strategic success. But she has also become part of a two vote couple, and she’s created some potential enemies – James, Jason, John, Audrey, Meg, Jackie, - and if any of them get HoH, she’s very well could be nominated and be a target. The saving grace there if she recognizes it and is willing to act on it, is that Clay is available for her to throw under a passing bus when time comes.

If the house were to plot her demise, it would be a very vicious and delicious eviction, one that would thrill and amaze. She’d never see it coming if they put her onto the block via a veto produced blindside. Why then did I put her here? Why indeed.

BTW, she would profit by investing in an autotune device. That last note peeled paint.

Vanessa – Player. She’s not on top of the list because I still can’t determine for sure whether or not her blow-up in the HoH with Austin was real or just a poker player's instinctive way of getting a tell (to see if he was lying, which he was). I am inclined to think the latter because she is a pro poker player and a move to get the other player flustered like she did with Austin is almost a knee jerk way of getting an opponent to reveal whether he’s lying or not, and she is a top shelf multimillion dollar poker winner, and I think it worked, I think she saw something. Austin certainly was flustered and talking without thinking. That tactic is well within her wheelhouse.

She only seems to be confrontational when there is a goal, as when she confronted Audrey, or Austin, or Jeff. And in each case her confrontational tactics were fruitful, she caught Austin in a lie (not a big achievement, he’s got a lot to learn about deception), she caught out Audrey without getting the house against her, and she (and Austin) caught Jeff in her web. She’s still got a cooperative agreement with Austin, so no fouls so far.
If her confrontation with Austin was real, then she is a very much a hypocrite, but even then, being a hypocrite in a game like this isn’t a negative if it’s subtle enough (Derrick, anyone?). In fact, being willing to be a hypocrite can be an asset here. So on balance, I’d have to put her up here on the list.

John – Has some potential to be a player, he seems capable of independent thought while following a subservient role in the name of practicality.

I agree, he’s getting easier to take, with that delivery he could be a standup comedian (Gilbert Gottfried anyone? OK, I can't stand GG, but some like him, he is successful). I also have him high on the list because of his even tempered personality, and his ability to make the most out of being a perennial nomination without giving out whiney pain-in-the-butt vibes outside of the diary room. If he can continue to keep his cool and make the best of whatever each week brings, Mr. Nails On The Blackboard will last.

Jason – Could become a player, but a poor alliance choice with DaVonne hurt his game (What was he thinking?). Is doing as well as could be expected, though, even though he’s dancing on the edge of eviction every week. Has the talent to go far, but has to keep his cool and his cunning. I think he has the mentality to do just that. We’ll see.

Liz/Julia (Ok, I like Jizz. But for PG sake, and since saying that makes me feel very uncomfortable, I’ll go with Lilua (I think Michel deserves credit for that?) , – Liz is a minor player, Julia is an unknown quantity (to me) - and if Liz’s confessionals are to be believed and she really is just leading Austin on by the nose ring, she’s a whore and should be stoned to death and then defecated on for leading a poor guy on like that (sensing some personal history here? You bet). But if she is leading him on, it’s the thing to do, and I grudgingly will admit that that would be better for her and Julia than being Austin’s adoring squeeze. We can wait till after the game to exact justice on the harlot. Lilua are almost to their goal. We’ll see if they can think about how they will handle the situation if they both make it into the game. Danger will increase for them as then they will become a target attracting two vote duo, and (IMO) low women on the alliance totem pole. Liz does have Austin’s heart, so Julia might be slightly more vulnerable.

Meg – Continues a pretty successful strategy of being Sweet Meg, the background dancer. She’s a floater, so she does get nominated, but no one seems inclined to evict her. So far there’s always been a bigger target.

Steve - Same as with Meg, with a whinier more paranoid aura. Must be a smart guy, but smart in ways that’s won’t help him here. His clock is ticking down to when the others need a sacrificial lamb, an anyone but me eviction.

Becky – Dissolved for the moment into the background. So she is nominate-able, but probably not a likely target. Same positioning as Steve.

Austin – Player wanna be – But he’s a transparent liar, Vanessa has his number (I believe), and he is being manipulated every week by one of the players (Liz, Vanessa, Shelli). Does come up with good ideas and has some sense about how to pursue them, and has some strength at influencing anyone that can’t detect an obvious liar (brain dead Jeff, for instance). He has some gameplay. He’ll probably stick around as long as he is a useful tool for the game players. Could be considered a player, I guess, but seems to be someone who is more likely to be played in any final showdown.

Audrey – Player. Our pokerless player (thanks for that brilliant bon mot, Tribe, still chuckling about that). House villain, and could be targeted any week depending on who gets HoH (Jason? Shelli again?) but as the house villain she will probably be carried for a few weeks. She could overplay her hand as she seems to be inclined to do.

James – Human garbage disposal. James sure eats a lot. For a little guy, you’d never guess how much he can pack away. In every scene except during the competitions, he’s stuffing something else in his mouth, with some of it coming back out because he chews with his mouth open. At least half of that hot dog sandwich went on the floor. And when Julie asked who was the messiest, I was sure it was going to be James. And it was, they all immediately pointed to him, no hesitation, and all in in unison.

So I’m lowering him from mid pack to here for bad housekeeping and atrocious table manners. I kinda like that he’s a Texan of Asian descent with a very typical Texas accent and manner of speaking. That kind of contrast is interesting.

Jackie – Sweet meat for whenever they need a convenient sacrifice. She should bend over more often if she wants my vote.

Clay – no game, best asset is being allied with Shelli. Which is also a negative in a paranoid duo-fearing house. Or should be. And his entreaties every week for John to go up as a pawn and then to throw the BoB are getting repetitious (how many times can he use the “Trust me. I swear to you with every fiber of my being that you are safe”, line? It’s obviously grating on John, and will get Clay nominated if/when John gets HoH. Because of this, I fully expect challenges or celebrity takeovers from the producers suited to John’s talents/abilities in the near future.

Disclaimer: I am a big Aggie fan, and am especially biased toward someone who was on a Heisman award winning Johnny Manzeil TAMU team (2012- 2013). So this rating was hard for me. I want him to win, but he’s just being a big dumb jock with a cheerleader on his arm so far.

Jeff - Gone Guy. Jeff was just not suited for this game. His attempts to become a player were painful to watch.

.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-21-15, 07:13 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
2. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
Nice analysis and GREAT read!

Actually if we flip-flopped Austin/Vanessa our lists would be pretty much dead on for the most part.

Our only real difference is whether Vanessa's blowup was for real. I dunno, I'd still bet a pair of pocket aces that Vanessa was legitimately PO'd at Austin. But hey, many a professional poker player's tournament ended betting on pocket aces.

As for Jeff's demise...not only did Austin spin the web, he proceed to grab Jeff by the wings and throw him into the sticky trap himself. It was only after Austin went to retrieve Vanessa and she observed the helpless prey did she pounce on it and suck the blood out of him.

As a big Auggie fan did you catch Coach Sumlin's comments? He said based on what he's watched, "Clay is a much better actor than a safety." I never followed Clay when he played but based on what I've seen on BB if there's any truth to what Coach Sumlin said, he must have really sucked on the gridiron.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kingfish 18425 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

07-21-15, 09:20 PM (EST)
Click to EMail kingfish Click to send private message to kingfish Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
5. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
Thanks, I probably had too much fun with that one. I did have fun.

Point taken in.re. Austin, it was just as you describe it and he does deserve the credit for that.

Where did you read Sumlin's comments on Clay? What a dig! But he was rarely if ever a starter, and not drafted by the pros.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-22-15, 06:26 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
7. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
I came across Sumlin's comments purely by accident when I was doing a search to see what Clay's college career stats were.

According to his stats he only saw playing time in one season and in that season he was credited with 20 solo tackles and 1 INT. During the Manzel era I recall all the games being high scoring shootouts so I expected a defensive back to be a lot more busier. But that would support your statement he was rarely a starter.

In that same article it stated that Clay was going back to A&M to pursue a Masters in Sports Management. Coach Sumlin ended the article by saying he doubted Clay would be retuning back to College Station but opt to hang out in LA for a long time.

LOL, not a whole lot of compliments for the season's boy toy.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-21-15, 08:28 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
4. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
Nice list, Kingish although I can't understand putting Shelli at #1. Winning early comps isn't very smart.

As for Lilua? I call them Lilia.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kingfish 18425 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

07-21-15, 09:23 PM (EST)
Click to EMail kingfish Click to send private message to kingfish Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
6. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
I didn't put her at #1. She just led the list. A distinction that exists only in my mind, maybe, but that's the story I'm going with.

I like Lilia better. Didn't know how to pronounce the other, even in my thoughts.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-21-15, 08:25 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
3. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
1- John: He is collecting a lot of IOU's and that could become very useful down the road. This season comedian will have a big decision to make when he becomes HOH. (That's the comps he should throw for now) Some have suggested he should turn on Shelli and Clay but why? That 6th sense alliance is fracturing more every week and it will get worse when Lilia become two.

2- Vanessa: She had a very successful week as HOH meaning she isn't anyone's target. She also reads Austin like a book (or maybe I should say like Hole Cards!)


3- Lilia: I liked it when Julia's first reaction at seeing the HOH key was to say: "'What did you do?" HoH should be avoided this early but by being dethroned, Lilia minimized her problems. They earned enough trust to win the Twin Twist and should soon play together so I'm curious to see how they manage that hurdle. I enjoy seeing Liz wrapping Austin around her little finger. By the way, I would love for production to play a trick on the hamsters such as having both in separate parts of the house so that players could run into one dressed one way and later the other dressed differently. It would be fun to see how long it actually takes them to realized what happened.

4- Austin: Despite being a bad liar and playing a bit too hard, Austin is in a very good spot. He will need all his manipulations skills to navigate his way to the end.

5- Jackie: Now that Jeff is gone she should be able to play her own game. She hasn't made any enemies, Austin wants to use her and she wisely informed Vanessa of the situation, earning some trust.

6- Shelli: Another HOH? She does need to keep her alliance in charge to protect her showmance but she should get her boy to try a bit harder. Now that she focused on Jason as her target, she should stick to that plan unless he wins veto. I think she will go "big move" hungry and backdoor the inoffensive Audrey instead.

7- Meg: I like her perkiness. It's funny to see that someone can play a great game by simply not playing. I kind of proves my point about avoiding winning competitions this early. Win them ONLY when you need them. Her social game is good but would need improvement. She could be the pawn that goes home because no one cares about her.

8- Steve: He's another one that proves you don't need to make waves to surf in this game.

9- Becky: Like Meg, she is avoiding trouble but she did win some early competitions and she is much too quiet. She needs to socialize more and acting it up a bit in the DR would be refreshing.

10- Audrey: She avoided the early boots but she isn't out of the woods yet. Continuing her lies isn't the best idea. Instead of telling Shelli that Jason was targeting her she should have come clean and say that she wanted him out for her personal safety. She will need to handle the pressure of being hated for a little longer and then it could turn around and help her long term plans.

11- James: Whenver I see him, I am reminded of the song "China Grove" by the Doobie Brothers: "People of the town are strange" and so is this messy guy.

12- Clay: The mimbo is just tagging along but, unlike Meg and Steve, he has a big target on his back. His alliance can't win all the HoH especially if he can't win anything.

13- Jason: While Aruba regrets that he is on the wrong side of the house and Kingfish questions why he aligned with Da'Vonne, I think the answer is simple: He wants to be the victim. It's a way to be memorable. I do not believe he is playing to win. He most likely entered the house knowing he'd be a longshot and soon realized that he had no chance so he's making the most of it.


Jeff: He was a lucky guy to get paired up with Jackie to run TAR but BB isn't a game for duos. I'm glad he left and she stayed.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-22-15, 06:45 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
8. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
When I stated Jason is "unfortunately" on the wrong side of the House, I meant unfortunately for HIM more so than for my own personal assessment. Personally I don't really care for him much as an individual; I just think he has a decent head for the game.

As much as you can credit Vanessa for reading Austin like "hole cards," you can also credit Jason for reading Austin like a "grocery store receipt." Of course you can take another approach and say reading Austin isn't really that much of a task, in which case neither would deserve any kudos.

The main reason he's on the "wrong side" is because the Sixth Sense is running the House right now. And as much as you criticize winning early, the major reason they are running the House now is because the players in that alliance are winning HOH competitions.

In my first Love/Loathe list of the season I stated statistically several former HGs won early and ended up very, very well in the game. If you use your early win(s) to secure a solid alliance that can stay loyal and on track for the rest of the game, I believe winning early can be key.

My early prediction is someone from the Sixth Sense will end up this season's champ. If that prediction is true then winning early to solidify this alliance would end up being a major key to their success.

As for Jason...if he gets evicted tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear. Now if Johnny ends up walking out the door, that would be a travesty.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-22-15, 04:35 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
10. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
Yes, the 6th Sense is in charge because some of its members are winning challenges but not everyone in the alliance is winning. See, the best way to play BB is to be aligned with the players who are winning comps but avoid winning them yourself. Anyway, it's dumb to limit yourself to one alliance. I'd be aligned or at least have a working relation with everyone in the house so I would be aligned with those in charge but I would throw the comps to avoid making enemies. It worked fairly well for me in on-line games.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-22-15, 06:52 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
13. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
>Yes, the 6th Sense is in charge because some of its members are winning challenges but not everyone in the alliance is winning.

I'd say more than "some." Vanessa, Austin, and Lilia all have a win under their belts, and Shelli has won twice. As a matter of fact EVERYONE in the Sixth Sense has won with the sole exception of Clay.

>See, the best way to play BB is to be aligned with the players who are winning comps but avoid winning them yourself.

So I guess that means Clay, the "mimbo" who's "just tagging along" is playing the best game of them all.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-22-15, 07:18 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
14. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"

>I'd say more than "some." Vanessa,
>Austin, and Lilia all have
>a win under their belts,
>and Shelli has won twice.
>As a matter of fact
>EVERYONE in the Sixth Sense
>has won with the sole
>exception of Clay.
>So I guess that means Clay,
>the "mimbo" who's "just tagging
>along" is playing the best
>game of them all.

No, the ones playing best are, in order, Vanessa and Austin. Despite winning HOH, Vanessa had a strong enough social game to avoid becoming a target. Anyway, I didn't say that winning a comp is a death move but it puts you in the spotlight and therefore at risk. Dig into your statistics and look up how many players over the years went from HOH one week to shaking hands with Julie the next or at least a place on the nomination couch.

What did Austin win? A very short-live HOH. Being dethroned removes a lot of the stigma associated with winning HOH.

As for Clay, my ranking should tell you what I think of the mimbo. Being a strong looking guy puts him at risk whether he does win or not. His mistakes are being such an obvious pair and playing the role of messenger boy for Shelli.


  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-23-15, 07:19 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
17. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
I know you have Clay ranked low; so do I. I was yanking your chain.

But I don't look upon being an obvious pair as much as a death knell as you.

Jeff & Jordan were an "obvious pair" and Jordan won the season. And I think we all can agree, it didn't turn out all that bad for Jeff either.

You can't get more obvious than Father/Daughter. How did they do? BOTH got to the Finals with Father winning it all.

Howabout two for the price of one! TWO obvious couples Boogie/Erika & Will/Janelle in All-Stars. ALL FOUR advance to the F4 with the pair of Boogie & Erika seated in the Finals.

Brandon & Rachel entered the House as an engaged couple. Rachel emerged the champion. Oh, BTW...Rachel won the first HOH of the season. I guess winning early on didn't hurt her either.

As for what did Austin win? Technically he was THE winner of the HOH comp winning it outright. Because of the BOB format, Vanessa needed to edge out James in a tiebreaker to determine who would join Austin.

The "dethroning" (if you want to call it that) was wholeheartedly agreed upon by Austin himself after Vanessa expressed her desire to keep it all week. To ensure that outcome, Vanessa was able to nominate Johnny to throw the comp allowing her to keep the reign. I would have done exactly as Austin did.

Yet for all intensive purposes, Austin may have just as well been HOH because it was he who orchestrated Jeff's eviction that week.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kingfish 18425 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

07-22-15, 10:39 AM (EST)
Click to EMail kingfish Click to send private message to kingfish Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
9. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
I can buy your Jason theory, tentatively. His reaction to the knowledge that he is all alone and a low hanging fruit (please, I didn't mean that like that) likely to be nominated repeatedly showed that he wanted to stay, presumably for the money.

But let's face it, they are all out for whatever post BB future recognition they can get in Hollywood.

I should have been clearer, though, because I know that initially these guys are scrambling and tend to ally with any one that offers an alliance, or who ever happens to be standing next to them, or whoever shares a box of Cheerios, with them, or whatever. That being said, one has to wonder why James isn't part of a active alliance, but I guess he would have to have time to use his mouth for something besides eating.

So Jason's initial alliance with DaVonne isn't really dumb, but what is dumb is his keeping aligned with her after she shows herself to be unstable, unwilling to recognize that she needed a better social strategy, and basically just a ticking time bomb waiting for the next perceived slight to set her off. It was dumb to blindly adhere to that alliance, and doubly dumb to not seek better partners.

.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-22-15, 04:45 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
11. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
To be truly memorable, he certainly would have to stay a little longer so I have no doubt he'd like to stay. His actions are limited to complaining about his situation instead of trying to improve it though. He seems to revel in the victim's role. It's not an uncommon trait.

You are right: Aligning with Da'Vonne wasn't dumb in itself because you'd want to be aligned with everyone. Early on, Da seemed like a power player so ignoring her could have been a fatal mistake. Aligning with her at the expense of almost everyone else though is dumb, whether she was going to remain in the game or implode.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-22-15, 06:45 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
12. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
I’m buying Michel’s “victim card” theory. Jason’s “whoa is me” DR confessions certainly suggest that. Although I think Jason believes he’s in it to win it. His victim approach may be more to garnish sympathy and support from the viewers, and should the tide turn in the House and the side Jason is on can make a run, he would definitely play up a Cinderella Story theme.

I honestly feel James and Jason did want to make an alignment as co-HOHs. Yes, their plan to backdoor Jace in week #1 may not have been the most advisable approach, but they were very much on the same page. The problem for both was the Sixth Sense alliance won the next three HOHs and put them in a scramble mode.

Michel makes a point about advancing without winning and cites appropriate HGs to validate that point. It especially works when A) you’re a cure adorable China Doll who everyone wants to hug and cherish, i.e. Meg, or B) you’re a pathetically inept non-threat joke of a player, i.e. Victoria last season who can successfully skate to the endgame for either of those reasons.

Well Flash Update...James and Jason are NOT cute adorable China Dolls everyone wants to hug and cherish, nor do they suck in competitions. So because the Sixth Sense players have successfully won HOH comps they are mired on the wrong side of the House for now.

As much as I didn’t care for Da’Vonne and I’m glad she’s gone, I will say (like Jason) Da’Vonne did have a decent head for BB. She was the first to sniff out the twin twist. So I don’t criticize Jason too harshly for initially aligning with her.

The only out I can give him (granted not a strong one) is Da'Vonne did get the “last laugh” to negate three votes. With that twist perhaps in his optimism he/they may have thought there’d be a remote chance of Da’Vonne surviving so Jason voted accordingly.

Obviously it didn’t work out and now Jason is running down the side of a hill away from a giant snowball that keeps getting bigger and bigger with every Sixth Sense victory. The winner(s) of the next HOH comp will determine if we have a power shift in the House or if the dominant alliance continues to control the game.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-22-15, 07:30 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
15. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
"Michel makes a point about advancing without winning and cites appropriate HGs to validate that point..."

To make my point clearer, I'd say Derrick played the best game since Dr Will and he didn't win many early comps either. If I remember, he never won veto and won only 1 HOH in the first 9 or 10 weeks of the season. Because of that and his social game, he was never even nominated. That's the way to play.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-23-15, 07:29 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
18. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
So is winning early or not winning early the "way to play???"

BB3 was the first season we had HOH and POV, so when comparing seasons from a competition win standpoint, I don’t go any earlier than BB3. In the last 14 seasons, seven eventual champions won comps before the jury sequester and seven did not. It doesn’t get more even than that if you want to discuss whether winning early or not is the way to play.

Former champions Hayden, Rachel, and Lisa (BB3) all were HOHs the first week of the season. In the last two seasons the first HOH (McCrae and Caleb) both made the F4.

To your point, Derrick deservingly won the season without winning comps early as did Dan in his first season.

So what does that say?

There’s no textbook “way to play” to succeed in this game and you & I could post until doomsday and cite actual outcomes to support each of our approaches. What it comes down to is choosing whether you want to take a more proactive approach to best control your own fate, or put your fate in the hands of Production in hopes they cast a bunch of nomadic puppets who can be easily manipulated allowing players like Derrick and Dan to be kids in a candy shop.

Keeping the focus on this season...the reason the Sixth Sense is dominating the game thus far is because they are WINNING comps, and the reason the other side of the House is scrambling is because they are not.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-23-15, 09:50 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
20. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
LAST EDITED ON 07-23-15 AT 10:02 PM (EST)

I copied both your responses here to simplify the discussion. You wrote:


>I don't look upon being an
>obvious pair as much as a
>death knell as you.

>Jeff & Jordan were an "obvious pair"
>and Jordan won the season.
>And I think we all can agree,
>it didn't turn out all that
>bad for Jeff either.

>You can't get more obvious than
>Father/Daughter. How did they do?
>BOTH got to the Finals with Father
>winning it all.

>Howabout two for the price of one!
>TWO obvious couples Boogie/Erika
>& Will/Janelle in All-Stars.
>ALL FOUR advance to the F4
>with the pair of Boogie &
>Erika seated in the Finals.

>Brandon & Rachel entered the
>House as an engaged couple.
>Rachel emerged the champion.
>Oh, BTW...Rachel won the first
> HOH of the season. I guess winning
>early on didn't hurt her either.

Let's tackle Evil D*ck and Rachel first: We both know that they won because production wanted them to win. 'Nough said. Jordan did win but we also can agree that it was by sheer luck. Jeff was the target from that pair because Jordan was much too dumb for the others to worry about her. They forgot about her until it was too late.

The tricky part is the All-Stars pairs. I think you will also agree with me that the Janelle/Will and Boogie/Ericka pairs never existed outside of the two dumb girls' mind. Because of Will's superior game skills, the true pair of Chilltown used the "couples alliance" to remain intact. Boogie and Will are probably the only pair that legitimately remained intact for the whole game.

>As for what did Austin win?
>Technically he was THE winner
>of the HOH comp winning it outright.
>Because of the BOB format,
>Vanessa needed to edge out
>James in a tiebreaker to
>determine who would join Austin.

>The "dethroning" was wholeheartedly
>agreed upon by Austin himself
>after Vanessa expressed her
>desire to keep it all week.
>To ensure that outcome, Vanessa
>was able to nominate Johnny
>to throw the comp allowing
>her to keep the reign.
>I would have done exactly as Austin did.

>Yet for all intensive purposes,
>Austin may have just as well
>been HOH because it was he who
>orchestrated Jeff's eviction that week.

First of all, the correct phrase is "for all intents and purposes" not "Intensive purposes". Up to now, Austin has won only 1 competition and we have no idea how the game will turn out for him so we will have to revisit his case when we have facts.


>So is winning early or not
>winning early the "way to
>play???"

I thought I was clear with the Deerrick example. It's better not to win comps early but winning one or two isn't the end of the world if you have a great social game.

>BB3 was the first season we
>had HOH and POV, so
>when comparing seasons from a
>competition win standpoint, I don’t
>go any earlier than BB3.
>In the last 14 seasons,
>seven eventual champions won comps
>before the jury sequester and
>seven did not. It doesn’t
>get more even than that
>if you want to discuss
>whether winning early or not
>is the way to play.
>
>
>Former champions Hayden, Rachel, and Lisa
>(BB3) all were HOHs the
>first week of the season.
>In the last two seasons
>the first HOH (McCrae and
>Caleb) both made the F4.


>To your point, Derrick deservingly won
>the season without winning comps
>early as did Dan in
>his first season.
>
>So what does that say?
>
>There’s no textbook “way to play”
>to succeed in this game
>and you & I could
>post until doomsday and cite
>actual outcomes to support each
>of our approaches. What it
>comes down to is choosing
>whether you want to take
>a more proactive approach to
>best control your own fate,
>or put your fate in
>the hands of Production in
>hopes they cast a bunch
>of nomadic puppets who can
>be easily manipulated allowing players
>like Derrick and Dan to
>be kids in a candy
>shop.

You may say that thare are no text books to win this game but in my opinion Will, Dan and Derrick are the three best players ever. I think that opinion is shared by a majority of posters including yourself. Therefore, avoiding winning comps is the way to go if you want to win the game on your own terms like those three did instead of winning it lottery style.

>Keeping the focus on this season...the
>reason the Sixth Sense is
>dominating the game thus far
>is because they are WINNING
>comps, and the reason the
>other side of the House
>is scrambling is because they
>are not.

This season is too early to call. For one thing, I think you are completely wrong to say that Meg, Becky, John and Jackie are scrambling even if they are not in the 6th sense alliance. Even James doesn't seem to have lost his appetite despite some close calls.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kingfish 18425 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

07-24-15, 09:22 AM (EST)
Click to EMail kingfish Click to send private message to kingfish Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
22. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
LAST EDITED ON 07-24-15 AT 09:31 AM (EST)

Glad to see you weighing I here, Michel. You are right to point out that is still too early to be definitive. I initially thought that Clay and Jeff could go far, and after Audrey became the villain, I thought she would too. Jeff and Audrey are gone, and now I am thinking that Clay won't last much longer. So, so much for my predictions.

But, dauntlessly continuing the discussion:

Sometimes bad decisions are made golden by worse decisions being made by others. Humans, you can't live with them, but you have to listen to their whining.

That's the only way I can explain Evil #####. Or Rachel. Neither were very good players (Rachael Reilly? Really?). There really isn't any rational explanation for those two except to say that they are aberrations.

But I base my opinion that early HoH wins are ill advised (esp. first week) on what the reaction in the house should be based on my own reasoning which is that with everyone essentially strangers to each other, the previous HoH can easily be the only and the most prominent one in the house, and can thus attract targeting. My reasoning is based on my estimation of the odds, and not stats, and there is an increased likelihood that situation of the first HoH in the next cycle will be dangerous.

Not discounting stats though, and if there is sufficient frequency they are a reasonable basis that can't be ignored.

The hamsters don't always do what reason says they should do, and not only do they not have to pay, sometimes it works out spectacularly. Still doesn't mean that it was the smart thing to do unless they happen to have had a crystal ball.

Same with obvious pairs. They should be the focus of targeting, because they represent more power (two votes), and any two votes that you aren't one of is a twice the potential danger to you, and the argument amongst the others to target one of them is easier to make. If they aren't targeted, it's because there is turmoil in the house that is causing a more vital target to be the focus.

BTW, my vote and fervent hope for a Chenbot replacement (and I know that there's an infinitely negative chance of this) is Britney. She doesn't even need cooter cards. She and Janelle were the most entertaining female hamsters so far, and I'd have to give the edge to Brit. IMO. She was born to be a mother, perhaps, those are extremely cute kids as one would expect coming from her, but she is also a born TV personality. A good one.

.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-24-15, 05:49 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
23. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
LAST EDITED ON 07-24-15 AT 06:09 PM (EST)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Kingfish. You are right: The players don't always play rationally, not only because they aren't very smart but sometimes the rats sway them during those DR sessions. Evil D*ck and Rachel had so many fans that production found ways to keep them on the show.

Aruba pointed to Hayden as an example of a player who won despite winning competitions. If I remember correctly, while he did win the first HOH, he didn't win anything else for the next 6 or 7 weeks. Also, I think his HOH win was part of a team competition. Again, going by memory (and it's not very accurate when it comes to BB), I think he was hesitant to win but he did it for the team, earning someone a prize. His win, compared to most, earned Hayden some degree of recognition.

As for the pairs, I want to go back to Chilltown: Like Aruba said, they managed to stay despite being obvious partners but I think it's very important to make a distinction: That was an All-Stars season so practically EVERYONE was part of a pair. The cast was loaded with players from seasons 5 and 6 so Will and Boogie didn't really stand out. They simply played one season against the other.

You are right about Brit: Cute and witty. I always enjoyed seeing her on the show. So many beautiful women left early that I can't think of many that I enjoyed as much. Maybe S8 Jessica and S10 Keesha. Survivor has fared much better from this angle also.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-26-15, 07:51 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
25. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
My memory is probably not any more accurate than yours when it comes to BB, but yes in the first HOH comp in Hayden’s season they were split into two teams. Whoever was first out on both teams was eligible to win 5K I think. But your team had to win in order for that loser to keep the 5K. Aside from that “team” aspect the HOH was still an individual win.

What I do remember is Brittney started whining about some boo-boo she suffered in the competition and they temporarily halted the comp. The HOH title was between Matt and Hayden, so Matt used this break in the action to talk to Hayden who expressed to Matt his desire to win the first HOH. Matt agreed and thus was the early formation of arguable the most successful early formed alliance in BB history—The Brigade.

So I suppose Hayden was “recognized” by the female HG (I don’t remember her name) who was able to keep the monetary prize. But that “recognition” turned out to be a double edged sword as that money “winner” became a target and consequently became the second or third evictee.

Winning the first or early HOHs can be ill advised as Kingfish stated, but that's if you didn’t do anything worthwhile with it during your reign; but it can be golden if you use it to your advantage to form a solid powerful alliance that can remain loyal throughout the game. This is precisely what happened in the case of Hayden’s first HOH. As Michel stated, he did go on a competition drought after his first win, but the solid alliance he formed with that initial HOH did win competitions and allowed him to advance further in the game.

Point of correction—Aruba didn’t acknowledge Chilltown as an obvious pair. The pairs I referenced in that season were Boogie/Erika and Will/Janelle...ALL OF WHOM made the F4. In that season I disagree that “practically EVERYONE was part of a pair.” Alison, Danielle, Nakomis, and Chicken George are just those off the top of my head who were not part of a pair. The most recent Season 6 had the highest representation, but thanks to James still sucking on his “bitter pill” no pair or alliance formation would result between those S6 players.

Well I'm over and out with this thread. I want to thank Kingfish and Michel for some "spirited" discussion. I'll post a new Love/Loathe list after tonight's episode. Enjoy.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-26-15, 04:24 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
26. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
"Aruba didn’t acknowledge Chilltown as an obvious pair. The pairs I referenced in that season were Boogie/Erika and Will/Janelle."

Now that's a head scratcher...You don't think Will and Boogie played as a pair? Weird.

PS. You can solidify an alliance just as easily without winning HOH.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-26-15, 07:40 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
24. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
“Scrambling mode” does not necessarily mean dire life or death situations. It means being put in an unfavorable or vulnerable position where you don’t want to hold anything to chance so you put out your best effort to fight yourself out of that predicament.

Johnny has done that five times (twice in the BOB and three times in POV...I’m not counting the BOBs he was in to throw.) So Johnny has scrambled. There’s no way James and Jackie were feeling safe on the nomination block last week, so they scrambled to win BOB and remove themselves. Becky needed to scramble in the first BOB of the season to get off the block.

I’ll agree with you on Meg, though...when you’re a cute adorable China Doll seated comfortably on a floatation device, you have no need to scramble.

I stand by each and every cited example that being an “obvious pair” is NOT as drastic as you make it despite your spin responses. And when your spin is unable to offer a viable counterpoint, let’s deal the ‘ole conspiracy card.

Sadly you’re missing my point. I’m not saying the reason Jordan, D*ck, Boogie & Rachel won was because they were part of a pair no more than I’m saying the reason Lisa, Hayden and Rachel were champions was because they were HOH in week #1. On the same token I’m not going to acknowledge Derrick and Dan won their seasons because they were winless in competitions early on. Actually I firmly believe Derrick and Dan still would have won their seasons even if they had wins early on. Of course if you win EVERY comp then you run the risk of being victimized by the Anti-Darwin Syndrome.

Fans can scratch their heads over Rachel’s win. But the fact of the matter is that girl stepped up in every competition, proactively put out her best effort, and won her fair share of them. By no means was that THE reason for her championship, but it contributed greatly to it.

Kingfish is right by stating other factors, i.e. “worse decisions made by others,” or could be a game twist or an expect the unexpected out of the control of the HGs whom are helped by those factors the most plays a tremendous role in crowning the ultimate champion.

With that being said, my point of contention all along has been do the utmost to proactively take charge of the factors that ARE within your control, and that’s where winning competitions come in.

Hey, you can always take the other approach and hope you’ve been casted with a majority of brainless puppets; or hope, as Kingfish stated, other players decisions may be worse than your bad decisions; and if they are...then God bless you. I was raised to always proactively take total charge of factors within your control and I’m sure others were as well. As I said time and time again—You are...who you are...who you are. But I realize not everyone is like that...so different strokes for different folks.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

michel2 953 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"

07-26-15, 04:30 PM (EST)
Click to EMail michel2 Click to send private message to michel2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
27. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
"Fans can scratch their heads over Rachel’s win. But the fact of the matter is that girl stepped up in every competition, proactively put out her best effort, and won her fair share of them."

LOL! So Rachel is your model BB player? When it comes to BB, she's your Tom?!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm laughing so hard, I can hardly breathe.


Ouf...Finally caught my breath...The ONLY proactive way to play BB (and Survivor) is to have some measure of control on the votes. You don't need to win competitions to do so like Will, Dan and Derrick proved. Those are MY models for BB just like Tina, Chris, Earl, Todd and Kim are my models for Survivor.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kingfish 18425 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

07-23-15, 10:23 AM (EST)
Click to EMail kingfish Click to send private message to kingfish Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
16. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
At least James stopped eating for one episode.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Aruba 2202 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Roller Coaster Inaugurator"

07-23-15, 07:47 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Aruba Click to send private message to Aruba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
19. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
But didn’t he mention something about eating during a DR confession? I vaguely remember but not totally sure.

Being in the House for a month now with all his eating you would think he would show signs of noticeable weight gain. Oh, but you did acknowledge his atrocious eating habits with half of the food coming back out of his mouth.

HEY, maybe he could start a new diet craze. Eat ‘til you heart’s content but minimize weight gain by chewing with your mouth open so you only swallow half of what you prepared to consume.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kingfish 18425 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

07-24-15, 08:35 AM (EST)
Click to EMail kingfish Click to send private message to kingfish Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
21. "RE: Love/Loathe List BB17 #4"
I couldn't understand him. His mouth was full.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top


Lock | Archive | Remove

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
about this site   •   advertise on this site  •   contact us  •   privacy policy   •