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PLEASE NOTE: The Reality TV World Message Boards are filled with desperate
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As entertainment critic Roger
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"Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate""
zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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05-04-10, 10:14 PM (EST)
 
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1. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
too.upset.to.post.
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HistoryDetective 9516 desperate attention whore postings
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05-04-10, 10:26 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
oh fvck
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warp_core breach 469 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 00:54 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
bawling like a baby here...
A Gift from Agman
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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 08:31 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
*sobs*
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 07:32 AM (EST)
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5. "Quick observations" |
Just so so sad. He won't leave her again. Just as Jin and Sun are reunited, she returns his ring, and then they are doomed. Heart-breaking for all of them. But, as they grieve their friends, we shoot to sideways world and there is Jin walking down the hall...he will never leave her again! *Jack was right. When he discovered the bomb in the backpack, if only he had handled it, it would never have exploded. He noted the rules, that XLocke can not kill them. And he knew that he couldn't die by his own hands. When he asked Sawyer to trust him, he couldn't, after what had happened to Juliet. When Sawyer grabbed the bomb, it was fated to go off. Sayid realized it and sacrificed himself. I am so happy Sayid was back, I really loved his character in this show. Sayid told Jack where to get Desmond.... Jack wasn't able to kill himself, just as he wasn't able to ignite jughead, when HE dropped it down the pit......but, Juliet could. She was not the candidate, nor was Sawyer, nor was Sayid. It's Jack. It's always been Jack. So MiB, wants them ALL dead, at least they know it now. As he told Jacob in Ab Aeterno. He cannot have a protector in order to run amuck off of the Island. I'll write more later. 
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 08:13 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Quick observations" |
We know why the reunion between Sun and Jin was sort of brushed over last week. The emotions were kept for this week. Sideways "Fix-it Jack" will probably sacrifice himself to save the couple when the two realities merge. Miror images again. Are they all miror images of each other somehow? Kate and Sawyer we saw last week. There was a symmetry between Jin and Desmond. There is now one between Locke and his father. Locke is responsible for his injury. Jack and Claire? She's waiting for a son that she didn't want, he has a son he'll have to leave so that Claire ends up with the son she already has. Miror image of a miror? I could ask why Xlocke didn't let Widmore's men kill the Losties if he can't himself? But maybe they can't either.
I could also wonder why XLocke didn't let them enter the plane if it was only to explode the sub? Did it have to be his trap?
I'm not sure how XLocke would know Jack would find the bomb in time. They had more things to worry about than unpacking so the bomb would have simply fizzled? I don't care about the details since we are now finally getting to the rules of the game. Jack understands the game and he's going to join XDesmond to finish it.
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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 08:30 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Quick observations" |
Widmore's peeps didn't try to kill the Losties. They used them as bait.
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CTgirl 7073 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 08:25 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: Quick observations" |
Wasn't it Widmore's people who wounded Kate? So many guns, I get confused!
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 09:12 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Quick observations" |
Great observations on all of the mirror moments, michel! I sort of looked at sideways world with Locke as just desserts. In reality, Cooper threw Locke out the window with the intent to kill him, here in Sideways, the villain gets his...he's a vegetable. You know what they say about Karma...it's a b****! The only problem is, is that Locke has to live with the guilt.Jack is trying to convince Locke to let it go, his mantra from the Island world. He admits that he struggles with it too....self reflection. But, he wants Locke to go first...well Locke did go first, he died in Island time line. Will Locke let it go, let what happened, happen, and let Jack fix him? I bet that he will...Locke deserves it, to let go and be happy...to get his happily ever after. After all, we heard, "I wish you believed me" two times last night. In sideways world Jack and Claire are reunited as family, happily. They deserve that happiness. The question that remains for me still is the significance of the Shepard family....and where is Christian's body? And, why Jack and his sister, and Aaron? Regarding your questions: I could ask why Xlocke didn't let Widmore's men kill the Losties if he can't himself? But maybe they can't either. Widmore himself said that he didn't care if Kate lived or died, that she had been crossed off, that he was interested in protecting Sawyer, Hurley, and the Kwon's. Widmore's men shot Kate because she was not on the list, they wouldn't have shot the other Losties. I could also wonder why XLocke didn't let them enter the plane if it was only to explode the sub? Did it have to be his trap? When Locke went to the plane, he knew it would be wired to blow, but he still has to get off the island, right? He killed the guy protecting the plane, and stole his watch, then went to find the explosives that he knew would be on the plane. Killing that guy and specifically stealing the watch told us that it was his plan to get the Losties to blow themselves up. We see him following the wiring which led him to the C4. He needed the Losties to find the explosive before it blew, so Sawyer or someone would take it and they could kill themselves, as Jack noted. It had to be the non-candidates that killed them all, it couldn't be Jack(as he is "the" candidate"). But, one thing is certain. He needs them ALL dead to escape the Island. I hope it's finally clear to all on these boards that argued that MiB wasn't evil, or "the bad guy". Clearly, he is the villain, while our "candidates" are the true hero's. And now there is no doubt about it, the remaining Losties and Desmond have to stop XLocke.
I'm not sure how XLocke would know Jack would find the bomb in time. They had more things to worry about than unpacking so the bomb would have simply fizzled?
No doubt about it, smokey is extremely crafty. He was able to foresee it all, just as Jack noted. It was not Widmore's plan to get them all isolated in a small area without a way out, it was his...too bad he didn't count on the goodness in Sayid to come out and save the candidate and a few others. But, you are right, if they had not opened the backpack it wouldn't have killed them, as per the rules.
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warp_core breach 469 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 11:01 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Quick observations" |
The promo also said that there are 2 sides to every story. My guess is that MIB only became evil because of Jacob. Also, that Jacob is one of those people who believe that he is doing good, that he is good despite the actions he has taken (kind of comparable to those who prosecuted innocent people during the Salem witch trials - maybe this comparasion is a bit extreme but you get my drift). He certainly reminds me of a scientist conducting experiments the way he sits back and just watches people he has brought to the island do their thing, suffer and die. That doesn't seem "good" to me. And MIB is just sick and tired of all of it.
A Gift from Agman
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 03:55 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Quick observations" |
Exactly!
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 06:15 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Quick observations" |
I see it the other way around: Jacob brings the island to people who otherwise would have died.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 03:54 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Quick observations" |
True dat. I do think that MIB is most likely "evil" now from most of his recent actions however I still think Jacob is not "good".
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 08:59 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: Quick observations" |
And did you really mean to sound so condescending with that comment. No, I did not mean to sound so condescending at all. Enthusiastic perhaps, but definitely not condescending. Just meant to say that if our Losties are the heroes, than MiB is the villain. If they are good, than he is bad. He is their antagonist. Regardless of how he came to be that way, at this point he is clearly out to kill every last one of them. I look forward to next weeks episode and the back story to Jacob and MiB.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 08:17 PM (EST)
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37. "A Question of Balance" |
With all those reflections, miror images and the scale in the cave, I think the game between Jacob and MIB is all a question of balance. I'm really not sure how it can tied up exactly but there are too many miror images between different characters not to mean something. What if there had to be balance between the people on the island and the ones in the "real" world? As long as there was balance, MIB couldn't leave the island but he found a loophole and now we have imbalance, disorder, and it is spreading. Man of faith/man of Science. Con man/cop. The sideways people are sort of opposite of the ones on the island as if they had lost their balance. All the talks of finding your constant could also be interpreted as needing someone to give you balance. Imbalance, disorder: Entropy. Is Smokey a manifestation of Entropy? I really have no idea how entropy could be pictured but physicists often use a spilled liquid to explain entropy. Keeping a cork on a bottle prevents the increase of disorder.
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Corvis 3116 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 09:23 AM (EST)
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10. "So..." |
Is anyone else really really mad at Jin this morning? I mean, he has a daughter - he doesn't get to throw his life away. I found that choice to be pretty unforgivable.
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warp_core breach 469 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 10:28 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: So..." |
It wasn't this morning... it was last night. I thought that Jin would have left to raise the daughter he has never met and that Sun would have told him to go for that reason. Staying with Sun until the end made for very heart-wrenching TV but...Will their daughter factor into the final episodes given that she is the only Kwon remaining?
A Gift from Agman
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warp_core breach 469 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 10:46 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: So..." |
And now she will be raised by Sun's mother who is married to - none other than the gangster Mr. Paik.
A Gift from Agman
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CTgirl 7073 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 08:37 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: So..." |
Exactly! I was thinking of Mr. Paik too.
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Corvis 3116 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 01:13 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: So..." |
Yeah, I was sure Sun would bring up their daughter and when she didn't, I was just so disappointed. They were just talking about her when they were in the cages - she is always on their minds. How could they not think of her? It just has soured me on the entire Jin-Sun love story. I hope their daughter plays a part in the end and they address this in some way.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 10:48 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: So..." |
Why would Sun have to remind Jin about their daughter? They understood each other.
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Corvis 3116 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-10, 01:28 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: So..." |
They understood that it was better for them both to die leaving their daughter an orphan than for one of them to survive? Maybe they did understand each other. Still, it was a very unsatisfying ending to two characters that I had really liked up until that point.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-10, 06:01 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: So..." |
I meant that a script that would have included the words: "Think of our daughter" would have been quite cheezy. Some words aren't necessary. Sun knew Jin was thinking about their daughter, any parent would, but the daughter was safe while Sun needed help. He simply couldn't leave.
Anyway, what hope did Jin have of not only escaping the sub but leaving the island? He's been there for years now. The absolute worst would have been to abandon Sun and not find a way to his daughter.
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Corvis 3116 desperate attention whore postings
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05-07-10, 02:44 AM (EST)
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53. "RE: So..." |
I suppose you're right about the idea of them knowing what they were thinking, but it still is ridiculous to me that Jin would choose death over the chance to be a father his daughter, no matter how remote that chance might be. In my mind, a parent doesn't do that.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-07-10, 08:12 PM (EST)
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58. "RE: So..." |
Maybe in his last moments Jin had visions of his sideways self about to become a happy father!
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Corvis 3116 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 10:57 AM (EST)
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70. "RE: So..." |
Aw, of course you're not going to get flamed. People can disagree - it's all good. I would say the difference between Sun's decision and Jin's is that there was a certainty that Jin was not going to make it. He decided dying with his wife was more important than being a father to his daughter. Sun got off the island once - there was a chance she could do it again.
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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 11:11 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Widmores's doods put the bomb on the plane.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 03:58 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Maybe Widmore is working with MIB after all this? Or it could have been Richard and his merry men?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 06:10 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Yes, last night made me think that everything Widmore has said has been a lie and a set-up to kill the Losties. He's working with MIB in such a way that, if MIB leaves the island, Widmore can have it to himself.
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weltek 16933 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 01:31 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-05-10 AT 01:32 PM (EST)I doubt Frank is alive. As for FLocke going after Desmond or Jack et all...it's still a little mysterious. As far as FLocke knows, Sayid killed Desmond and Jack et al are dead in the sub. Yet, he must know that's not the case with one or both of them. Could someone remind me what has happened to Richard and Ben? ETA: Thanks to the Death Pool thread for answering that question. Nevermind! 
-A Tribetastic Creation
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warp_core breach 469 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 03:21 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
>As for FLocke going after Desmond
>or Jack et all...it's still
>a little mysterious. As far
>as FLocke knows, Sayid killed
>Desmond and Jack et al
>are dead in the sub.
>Yet, he must know that's
>not the case with one
>or both of them. I think that MIB doesn't have to physically leave the island. I think that once all the candidates are dead, he's free and gone but since he's still on the island, nothing has changed. I wonder how he will try to kill the remaining candidates since, apparently, he's not allowed to kill them directly?
A Gift from Agman
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Travel_Queen 138 desperate attention whore postings
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05-11-10, 12:11 PM (EST)
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84. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
My theory is that once ALL the Candidates are dead, Flocke will integrate with Locke in the sideways and therefore be off the Island.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-10, 06:46 AM (EST)
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45. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Is Claire really Claire, or is real Clarie dead? If she is real Claire, why didn't Flocke kill her? Or, does he only need the peeps on the list to die.That's a good question. I thought that Sayid was able to come back from the dark side, just as Hurley told Sawyer, that it was possible to come back from the dark side...I think Claire was too, when Kate talked to her on the beach. As to why did Flocke not kill her, I don't know. She's not a candidate. But, I still ask what is the significance of the Shepard family. Jack, his father - who Flocke tells us was him in the beginning, but what about the Christian on the freighter, or in LA? And, where is his body in Sideways world? And, lastly Claire, who is related to Jack via Christian.
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warp_core breach 469 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-10, 10:15 AM (EST)
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48. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
>But,
>I still ask what is
>the significance of the Shepard
>family. Jack, his father -
>who Flocke tells us was
>him in the beginning, but
>what about the Christian on
>the freighter, or in LA?
>And, where is his body
>in Sideways world? And, lastly
>Claire, who is related to
>Jack via Christian.I too thought about the Christian on the freighter. SO much has happened that I have forgotten a lot of things but I remembered this. If MIB was Christian on the island, and he can't leave the island, then how did he (if it was him) appear to Michael on the freighter?
A Gift from Agman
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-08-10, 08:05 AM (EST)
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60. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Twin Peaks it is!
The creators have already said they're not committed to providing answers and have moved on ... the only answer they owe is to explain the Flash Sideways ... which was not even a question before this year.I'm so annoyed with them. They gave an interview where they compared fans asking for answers with three year olds, saying if you answer a three year old's questions there will always be more, so instead you distract them by saying, look, it's Chuck E Cheese. Or ... let's blow stuff up and kill off characters! They aren't as great as they think they are (the writers and exec producers), and they have no call to be so condescending. They've vowed never to speak of LOST again after the Finale. So you see they are already doing the damage control. Didn't like it? We're not discussing it.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-08-10, 02:55 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
If the Flash Sideways simply become the new reality then I feel it would have been a waste, something even dumber than Dallas' bad dream season. This would be a whole series that was a bad dream. They didn't crash on this island? The series was about their crash.On the other hand, like Weltek said, there are plenty of small answers that people seem to focus on that really aren't that important. An example: Adam and Eve? Make your own scenario as it's been answered when Hugo asked "do you think it could be us?" It could be anyone and, for all I care, they could be the "real" Adam and Eve. Why the numbers had to be punched, what happened when they weren't, what was the purge and who ordered it are bigger questions that will probably be explained in the game between Jacob and MIB. That's what needs to be answered and, if they do a good enough job, everything should follow from there.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-08-10, 10:21 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-08-10 AT 10:38 PM (EST)I've seen it quoted ... I'm not sure where to find the original. If you want I can look around. This quote has been around since early on Season Six, so perhaps they've changed their position recently? I just want to make it clear to those of you who don't me as a LOST poster, that I've been an ardent and involved fan of the series since the Pilot aired. I just never found the forum here at Blows, but on two other boards (one private) I have done a ton of research and posting. I really felt this show was a big cut above anything else on TV. Unfortunately (this is my opinion and many don't share it), they threw a lot of interesting stuff out there that I think now was just them being cool and intriguing. They did it without really knowing what it meant to the overall design. And this is what happens when writers are assigned scripts and given limited knowledge about where the series is going. They open up avenues of exploration and it's not their assignment to provide the closure, or to think it all out, but to give the writers that follow them tools to build on. That works really well until it's time to wrap it up and unfortunately for them part of developing a rabid fan base is that they have fans who remember it all. I don't care all that much about loose ends. What I care about is a good episode, one after another, and it seems they lost their best writers along the way. This whole season has been 1) Useless new characters who get killed off and served no purpose other than to drag the story along in-between the few episodes that the real story was being addressed. 2) Stupid fixation on guns and explosives is getting old even for people who like that stuff. It's no longer exciting when one group or another holds someone at gunpoint. 3) They're fragmented and running around in circles. They created too many groups of people and they keep splitting and recombining. It's boring... they had to slaughter the Ajira remnants because they couldn't work them in. And what ever happened to Richard's people? Were they the Temple folks? Conveniently dead. DHARMA, gased and slaughtered. Ben's Others, killed by ... Keamy?
Whatever happened to the rest of the original 815 redshirts? I can't recall. 4) The continuity errors are getting to the point of camp.
They go in the sub by day, stay for a few minutes, and land on the beach at night.
UnLocke grabs a watch from a dead man before he knows that he needs a timer, instead of when he comes out of the plane with the C-4. Also, the Rules are laughably unclear. Supposedly Sawyer makes the bomb go off by pulling the wires, by making the bomb go off due to his actions. But Jack could not get dynamite to explode when he tried. And Jack was not trying to commit suicide either. Richard was. Jack was doing it to prove a point. If Smokie needs to let someone else kill the Candidates, why didn't he let them get on the plane and get blown up by Widmore's C4? Some would say, he needed them to get on without him like he did with the sub. But then what was his plan heading for the plane in the first place, when he didn't know about the C-4? If bullets can't kill a smoke monster, does he need to worry about C-4? Really? If that's all it took, wouldn't someone have offed him by now? I just don't think this kind of poor writing would have made LOST the mega-hit to intelligent viewers that it became under the touch of really superb writers who didn't stay the course. For the money this thing has made, I think Lindelof and Cuse should have written a lot more of Season 6.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 07:23 AM (EST)
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68. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Thanks for engaging with the question, michel. I'm not interested in making LOST out to be less good than it is, so if this makes sense I'm glad to hear it. One thing though, and I think you probably don't agree, which is OK, but I think that for events in an episode to make some kind of sense, they should be working within the framework of what's been told to us. Jack has been working on the idea of "rules" since the Richard Alpert in Black Rock dynamite episode, no? Or has it been longer? And we have seen some conversations between Jacob (deceased) and UnLocke, where statements were made such as you can't kill them -- apparently the Candidates. Jacob gave Ilana a list. And there reallly hasn't been a revision or and word that any of the six have been demoted and are now targets is there? So now looking at what you said: >>> About XLocke and the C-4, I think he had been working with Widmore all along. He knew the C-4 would be there because it was their shared plan. Widmore can't kill the candidates either so they couldn't kill them on the plane. But it's just spec right now that the two are working together, no? So you think that setting up the fence and all that is for show, and Widmore wanted Locke to have Desmond and be able to have him killed? It's possible but why is there a rule that Widmore can't kill them? Widmore's mercenaries killed a lot of people the first go-round. Widmore's not a smoke monster. How does Jacob enforce this rule upon him? It sounds like you remember something I've forgotten here, very possible, as you have been keeping track of the rules of the game so well. I admit I stopped paying full attention to the revelations. But still, how do these rules work? Henchmen and co-plotters' actions count as if it's the person (or thing) doing the deed? Why is there a loophole that allowed Ben to kill Jacob; wasn't he told to do it? >>> Your question about Sawyer being able to detonate the bomb is a better one but maybe it was because he wasn't trying to kill them but trying to save them. I think most people figure that with Sawyer interfering he "switched" the bomb from being something UnLocke was attacking with and started a disaster that was by Sawyer's hand. I really really don't think this was a good device they used. Anyhow, Sayid grabbed the bomb and committed suicide with it. When did Jacob ever say Sayid is no longer protected? Didn't Sayid come back to life after dying? >>> He lost faith in the island's power so he wasn't a candidate anymore. Anyway, Jack didn't die so the C-4 didn't kill The candidate. I don't think THE candidate exists at this point. There's no evidence of it. One of the Kwon's should have been a candidate, and they were killed as a direct result of the exlosion, so if it was Sawyer's fault then he killed them -- unintentionally. Could you help me out and separate what the show has told us for sure from what you're speculating? I'm having a hard time with the two mixed together. There were other things that bothered me with this episode, but I won't say them all as it just comes down to so many things weren't according to known rules of physics that it starts to become like Batman or one of those cartoons where characters go off cliffs and get blown up but don't die. Kate's shoulder wound from a rifle that should have killed her, the depth of the submarine that no one without diving equipment could have swum out even if they could get out before it filled ... when the show began they paid a lot more attention to abiding by laws of physics. Now it's just whatever. UnLocke can do whatever because he knows everything; he can plant a bomb and get it discovered with the timer at just the right time that is too short for the sub to surface, but enough for the Losties to interfere (or the bomb wouldn't have detonated). If there's a continuity error we excuse it with a time shift, or magic power ... in closing, if UnLocke has all these powers, why didn't his plan work? If he can know things, why wouldn't he know the part that would fail and adjust it to work better? It's hard for me to not see the plot needs as the tail that's wagging this dog.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 02:47 PM (EST)
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72. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
OFG, you know that I share some of your concerns about how this will turn out. So, regarding:"Could you help me out and separate what the show has told us for sure from what you're speculating?" It's a little like being parachuted inside a New-Dehli stadium and asked to describe a match of cricket without knowing the rules. We can say this is a stupid sport or we can look at the audience's excitment, join in and try to understand what is happening. We might not get it by the end of the first "inning" but, by the end, we should have an idea of what happened. I'm just trying to say that the scenes could have credibility if we'd understand the rules better. That being said, you asked: "Jacob gave Ilana a list. And there reallly hasn't been a revision or and word that any of the six have been demoted and are now targets is there?" Nothing was shown but we do know that names get crossed off the lists, even the one in the cave. "But it's just spec right now that the two are working together, no? So you think that setting up the fence and all that is for show, and Widmore wanted Locke to have Desmond and be able to have him killed?" Certainly it's speculation on my part but it's based on the knowledge that MIB wants to leave the island while Widmore wants to have the island. The property's value increases if smokey isn't around!  Look at how easy it was for Sayid to get Desmond and how easy it was to cut the power of the fence. And when, besides out-of-balance sideways world did Widmore care for Desmond? "why is there a rule that Widmore can't kill them?" Why is often an impossible question to answer. We do know that the rules, at least some of them, apply to Widmore just as they do to MIB. Remember when Ben visited Charles in his bedroom, they said the rules prevented them from killing each other. "Why is there a loophole that allowed Ben to kill Jacob; wasn't he told to do it?" My speculation here was that MIB needed both to use someone (Locke) and to turn someone (Ben) that had been true believers of Jacob in order to kill him.
(It's a little like Gods: You cannot convince someone that his God doesn't exist by arguing with him. A God "dies" only if no one believes in Him anymore.) "Sayid grabbed the bomb and committed suicide with it. When did Jacob ever say Sayid is no longer protected? Didn't Sayid come back to life after dying?" Sayid was under MIB's spell, not Jacob's. We do know that Sayid talked to Desmond and that he changed after that encounter. As speculated, we now know that he didn't kill Desmond so something broke between MIB and Sayid. My speculation here is that Desmond is now Jacob himself. He talked to Sayid and made him see that XLocke was lying to him. He could have told Sayid that the only way to be with Nadia was to die but that he needed to help his candidate first. "I don't think THE candidate exists at this point. There's no evidence of it. One of the Kwon's should have been a candidate, and they were killed as a direct result of the exlosion, so if it was Sawyer's fault then he killed them -- unintentionally." This episode was titled "The Candidate" and Sayid told Jack "You are it" or "It has to be you" something like that. I think that makes it pretty certain that Jack is the candidate. We never knew which Kwon was the potential candidate. Some say it could have been their daughter. Either way, if Jack is the candidate, then the island didn't need Sun and Jin anymore so they could resume their lives as new parents in sideways world. I agree with you and some of those details bother me. Kate's wound too at first but then we know the island has great curative properties. "in closing, if UnLocke has all these powers, why didn't his plan work? If he can know things, why wouldn't he know the part that would fail and adjust it to work better?" Maybe because Jacob is just better at this game and that he knows he cannot let MIB win or the world ends.
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FesterFan1 5947 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 03:13 AM (EST)
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67. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Congrats, OFG. Your heavy-handed and ridiculous criticism has brought me out of lurk mode. You claim to be a fan, and yet your jabs at the LOST franchise get increasingly unfair as we approach the finale. You don't like the episodes? Fine. I won't try to convince you that you're wrong. Diff'rent strokes and all that. But to climb up on a high horse of genre superiority and use words like "derivative" and "laughable" and such and then to turn around and call them condescending? Wow. Hypocritical much? I listen to Damon and Carlton all the time and I don't find them to be condescending at all. They are self-deprecating to a fault. I've never heard them refer to LOST as a great work of completely original genius. On the contrary, they wear their influences on their sleeves. They named an episode "Some Like It Hoth" for God's sake. You really think they take themselves that seriously? Really?>I've seen it quoted ... I'm
>not sure where to find
>the original. If you
>want I can look around.
> This quote has been
>around since early on Season
>Six, so perhaps they've changed
>their position recently? You haven't seen it quoted. You know why? They never said it, that's why. They said they're going into "radio silence" (Which, btw, is what they have done EVERY season since the show's inception. They like to let the finale sink in and not lessen the impact by doing scene-by-scene deconstructions.). They have said that they'll talk about the show again in time. They aren't "hiding", as you'd suggest. Quite frankly, I can't remember show runners who have been MORE accessible than Damon and Carlton. If you can, please feel free to enlighten me. They make appearance after appearance on TV. They give interview after interview to journalists. They show up at Comic Con every year. They do a podcast where they answer viewer questions. So if they want to take a year or two off after LOST is over, I say they've more than earned it. My guess is that their wives have forgotten what they look like at this point.
>I really felt this show was
>a big cut above anything
>else on TV. Unfortunately
>(this is my opinion and
>many don't share it), they
>threw a lot of interesting
>stuff out there that I
>think now was just them
>being cool and intriguing.
>They did it without really
>knowing what it meant to
>the overall design.
Count me as one who doesn't share this opinion. They have a lot of influences, and they've thrown many into the show, whether they be books, pop culture references, historical figures, etc. This is done, imo, to show how a lot of this stuff is in the collective subconscious. Jeff Jensen at EW does a great job of expounding on this. 90% of it doesn't have any bearing on the actual plot of the show, and if you're someone like my mom who just likes to be told a good story and doesn't have the inclination to look up who Jeremy Bentham was, the show can be enjoyed on that level as well. They don't include it to be "cool". They include it to pay homage, or to say "hey, if you like this show, you might also enjoy 'The Third Policeman'". It doesn't mean that they don't know where they're steering the ship. Unless I've missed what you're saying here. Considering you don't give ANY examples, I had to try to guess what you were on about here. >And this is what happens when
>writers are assigned scripts and
>given limited knowledge about where
>the series is going.
>They open up avenues of
>exploration and it's not their
>assignment to provide the closure,
>or to think it all
>out, but to give the
>writers that follow them tools
>to build on. As someone who is a self-professed fan, you sure don't understand how they write the show. They ALL form the basis for EVERY episode. Damon and Carlton have the ability to veto things or steer the ship more than the others, but they are all in the room when they break an episode. And they ALL know where the season is going. Then the writers who get credit, do the actual scripting. THEN, it's run past D&C one last time. They don't go off and write it on their own with no real understanding of the structure of the episode or where it fits in the context of the season. If you don't like who's writing the show now, so be it. Most of the writers from Seasons 1 & 2 are gone, however Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz have been with them since late Season 1, and Elizabeth Sarnoff has been there since Season 2. Those 3, combined with D&C, will combine for writing credit on 14 of the 18 hours of Season 6. >That works really well until it's
>time to wrap it up
>and unfortunately for them part
>of developing a rabid fan
>base is that they have
>fans who remember it all. I'm one of the people who remembers it all, and I think they've done a fantastic job for the most part with what is arguably the most complex narrative in the history of major network television. They haven't been perfect. But the pros FAR outweigh the cons in this arena. YMMV.
>This whole season
>has been
>
>1) Useless new characters who get
>killed off and served no
>purpose other than to drag
>the story along in-between the
>few episodes that the real
>story was being addressed. You want them to introduce new characters who we're supposed to care about and who are pivotal to the endgame? Seriously? We don't have enough characters we've grown to love over the previous 5 seasons? >2) Stupid fixation on guns and
>explosives is getting old even
>for people who like that
>stuff. It's no longer
>exciting when one group or
>another holds someone at gunpoint. Don't like guns. Got it. We'll all just end this thing peaceably then. No need for conflicts or messy deaths. >3) They're fragmented and running around
>in circles. They created
>too many groups of people
>and they keep splitting and
>recombining. It's boring... they
>had to slaughter the Ajira
>remnants because they couldn't work
>them in. And what
>ever happened to Richard's people?
> Were they the Temple
>folks? Conveniently dead.
>DHARMA, gased and slaughtered.
>Ben's Others, killed by ...
>Keamy?
>Whatever happened to the rest of
>the original 815 redshirts?
>I can't recall. All I can say is that if you're that concerned about the redshirts at this point, D&C really haven't done their job. Hey! I've got an idea...why don't we introduce them and their hopes and dreams in the last 10 episodes?! Oh, right...Point #1. Damned if you do...damned if you don't... >4) The continuity errors are getting
>to the point of camp.
>
>They go in the sub by
>day, stay for a few
>minutes, and land on the
>beach at night.
>UnLocke grabs a watch from a
>dead man before he knows
>that he needs a timer,
>instead of when he comes
>out of the plane with
>the C-4. How do you know he was unaware of the C-4? This is an assumption you're making. He sure as hell seemed to go straight for it when he got on the plane. Didn't seem too shocked to find it, either. >Also, the Rules are laughably unclear.
> Supposedly Sawyer makes the
>bomb go off by pulling
>the wires, by making the
>bomb go off due to
>his actions. But Jack
>could not get dynamite to
>explode when he tried.
>And Jack was not trying
>to commit suicide either.
>Richard was. Jack was
>doing it to prove a
>point. "The Rules" only apply to Flocke. He can't kill the Candidates (supposedly). The situation with Jack and Richard was different. Some entity (Jacob or Flocke) still had influence over Jack's free will at that point. Apples and oranges. >If Smokie needs to let someone
>else kill the Candidates, why
>didn't he let them get
>on the plane and get
>blown up by Widmore's C4?
> Some would say, he
>needed them to get on
>without him like he did
>with the sub. But
>then what was his plan
>heading for the plane in
>the first place, when he
>didn't know about the C-4? The reason here could be logistical (perhaps under water is out of the realm of the island's protection) or part of Flocke's long con (he knew he wouldn't be able to get Jack on the plane, but when they went for the sub (aka Widmore's ride), he knew there would be a firefight ending with Jack either dead or on the sub. (For the record, I'm going with choice "B", personally.) >If bullets can't kill a smoke
>monster, does he need to
>worry about C-4? Really?
> If that's all it
>took, wouldn't someone have offed
>him by now? He wasn't worried about the C-4. He extracted the C-4 because he needed it. The assumption that Flocke can be blown up was one made by whoever put the C-4 on the plane (which could have been either Widmore or Richard). >I just don't think this kind
>of poor writing would have
>made LOST the mega-hit to
>intelligent viewers that it became
>under the touch of really
>superb writers who didn't stay
>the course. For
>the money this thing has
>made, I think Lindelof and
>Cuse should have written a
>lot more of Season 6. D&C have the writing credit on 7 of the 18 hours of Season 6 (LAX Pt1&2, Lighthouse, Happily Ever After, Across the Sea, and The End). That's about par for the course. And for the record, I don't think the writing this season has been poor. Someone ought to stick up for it. I'll be that person. I still think there isn't another show as well written. Sure, other shows may do character development better, but LOST has always been a great STORY first, that had complex and well-defined characters. I seriously can not think of another network show that has had the scope of this one. To be able to create a story that complex and to create characters with depth, good traits, bad traits, humor, and heartbreak should not be dismissed as easily as you are dismissing this. This show is held to an impossible standard by its critics. No wonder they want to go into radio silence. You want to know what's laughable? Trying to say that LOST is some kind of Star Wars ripoff just because there are a few things that are tangentially common. It sure made me laugh, anyway.
 Fester
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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 11:36 AM (EST)
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71. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Hiya Fester! Glad you stopped in!As a viewer that is more like your Mom, I have loved this show from the start. However, if I didn't follow a bit of the online analysis, I'd be more confused than ever. Mr. true and I often look at each other and say "huh?" at the end of episodes. It seems as though more questions are getting raised each week than answered. I do feel like this final season is kinda all over the place, story-wise. It's more about MIB and Jacob than the original survivors we've grown to love over the years. I can't even remember the last time I saw Ben. I love Lost, even though I don't always get it. I don't get the references most of the time. I don't remember minor characters from early seasons that show up in sideways land. I don't care about an answer for every.little.detail. because I don't remember every.little.detail.  There are some big details that I hope get answered, though I'm afraid time is running out, and the story is going in a whole other direction. (bad pun intended)  I think it's reasonable for me to expect, as a loyal viewer, not concerned for every detail, that when it's all over Mr. true and I can look at each other and say "a-ha!" instead of "huh?". I still have hope, but I'll admit, I'm a little worried.
 Love ya, Fester!
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 09:13 PM (EST)
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75. "Agree except" |
They have promised a fitting Lost ending. They don't get to decide not to do that, a deal's a deal.
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 10:16 PM (EST)
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77. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
If a writer creates a story driven by what the reader will like, he is not an artist, he's just some sort of word-pimp.I don't think an author owes a reader anything. If a reader is that concerned about wasting his time, then perhaps he should consider a different investment - one less risky and within his control. 
A Mmmmmmmoonie plate special!
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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05-11-10, 12:16 PM (EST)
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85. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
I wasn't intending to close the subject or engage in a great philosophical debate. I was disagreeing with your perspective on an author's responsibilities. I think we have different expectations from our entertainment. You've mentioned that certain outcomes of the Lost storyline will leave you unsatisfied, and that you'd consider your time watching the series a waste. I have stated that if Lost ended today, right now, without ever airing another minute, I would not consider my time spent a waste. Fundamentally, you and I are coming from different perspectives on this, so it's no surprise that we disagree. Lost is the only scripted television program that I watch. I consider it worth my time. If it disappoints me, well, then I made a bad investment. It doesn't make sense for me to hold the writers to a promise that they haven't made, or to expect a particular payoff that I can't count on or control. And really, with television, we all know that anything can get canceled at any time, so Lost was a risky investment to begin with. My risk, and my expectations, are mine. If you are afraid that you will have invested in a potential waste, then maybe it wasn't a good investment for you. I feel that an author has an obligation to tell the story he wants to tell in the way that he wishes to tell it. As a reader, I can choose to invest my time in it, or not. I always have the option to put it down, walk away, find something else. That's how I look at it. I understand that you see it differently.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 10:54 PM (EST)
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79. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Those are well put answers.
I want to make it clear though that I am not in the camp that demands answers for every question. When I mentioned that the creative team has said not to expect answers to everything, that was not my particular beef with LOST but said IN RESPONSE to people who said, I hope they will answer this, or I trust they will revisit that. I was saying to them, take it for what it is and don't get your hopes up in that area. Also, as this is a smart message board, I don't understand why criticism and critique are so unacceptable. Artist create and produce, and their works are critiqued. I may be a fan, but I also have a graduate degree in the study of literature, which includes the study of narrative techniques, includes film, television, and pop culture. LOST burst on the scene as a show worth pondering, and caught the interest of analytical viewers as well as emotional viewers. The creators were happy to get that audience, and after one engages a certain segment purposefully, it really doesn't work to tell the thinkers and critical minds in the group to turn off their brains. Nor do I think the creative team has gone this far. Some fans attack people who dare to think critically about this show. On one hand they say not to criticize because no one is perfect; on the other they say Darlton have done something too great to criticize. It doesn't matter: artistic production gets critiqued. It is a compliment if the work interests people enough to critique it. Opinions differ! H.G. Wells reviewed James Joyce's work and said that he wasn't a very good writer. Speaking of Joyce ,,, this is for the people who say that because LOST is/was produced as a serial, that it is bound to grow, and in the process it will contradict earlier elements of the show. That it shouldn't be held to the standard of a novel. You may not realize this unless you've studied Joyce, but Ulysses, often hailed as the greatest novel in English literature, was written and PUBLISHED in serial form before it was published as a novel. Seven years of writing and publication, in which Joyce committed to paper an immensely complicated novel. While there were of course some changes made to the final novel, there was nothing of consequence in terms of characters, theme, style, plot, symbolism that was changed. In fact, much like LOST appeared to be, it's a novel that plants multitudes of seeds early on that can't be fully appreciated until much later in the book. And yet it was written one chapter at a time, in longhand too. By a guy who was going blind. There is no question then that a serial production can be created that is mapped out in advance. LOST did face some special challenges. One was that they didn't necessarily expect the pilot to get picked up. They knew what the island was about and why the plane crashed, but they didn't know how they were going to tell the story, or where the characters were going. They had to hit the pavement running. Where I am not happy with the creative team is that they made endless podcasts reassuring people that they weren't writing on the fly and that everything mattered. They asked people to take all the information in the show as being significant to the meaning they would reveal in the end. That does create a sort of contract with their public. In effect, they promised to deliver on the model of Ulysses, instead of saying that they were creating as they went along, experimenting. Nothing wrong with experimenting, but be honest about the process. But oops, that could cost them ratings. It would have cost them ratings. I did have hopes that they would use Season Six to tie up loose ends instead of creating new devices, new redshirts, new name characters, and go with an action plot. Part of that is I have bought all five seasons on DVD and was hoping to watch it all in sequence and see how all the early and middle stuff was prep for the ending. A lot of people have invested in the DVD's. Now if you go to The Fuselage, which is sponsored by Abrams and the creative team, you'll see a lot of diehard fans saying they will never buy Season Six and they regret buying the earlier ones other than Seasons One and Two. Now back to Corvis' question, I think it's a free market society. The author does not OWE anything, but neither does the audience owe approval simply on the basis of effort. No E for effort when it comes to the big business of attracting a huge audience, fan base, residual sales. They have to deliver to get the accolades. More accurately, most authors need to deliver. Darlton may end up pulling off a big Emperor's New Clothes story with only a segment of the fans calling them on it. We'll see. I honestly hope that it's better than that, but I already know that they don't have time to tie things together in such a way that the DVD's are going to present an epic story that is coherent. It's going to be, oh there's this, never found out what that meant, oh there's that, that was smoke and mirrors. Speaking of which, it's rather literary of them to pin the final season on a theme of actual smoke and mirrors. I appreciate that nod to the process.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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05-10-10, 06:03 PM (EST)
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81. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
It's because they are used to getting cancelled first!
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-10-10, 09:22 PM (EST)
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82. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
You're right, Hobbs. There are few good endings, and michel is right too.The thing is, they got an end date, they got permission from ABC to wrap it up when Season 3 began to tank in ratings and they themselves felt they were stalling the story. They've had three seasons to map out the arc to the ending. They've made a big point about it. I liked Season 4 OK (writer's strike messed it up by shortening it), and I liked Season 5 until the Juliet falls in a hole Finale. I was way excited when Six arrived with promos about the time for answers has come. I thought it would all be substantial. I don't demand that all questions be answered, but I didn't expect so much filler in the last season. The Temple was a new plot line that seemed unnecessary to me in that it didn't go anywhere that mattered. It was way more mysterious and cool when it was a ruin in the jungle. Now all the Temple people seem to be dead, between Smokey and the mortar lobs) -- and what did they contribute other than filler for some episodes? (Are Cindi and the kids dead or alive? They've been around since Season 2 off and on, don't those kids matter at all?) They needed a mechanism for immersing Sayid in a healing pool, but what wasn't necessary was another whole bunch of people, Dogen and his sidekick who just died. And then the whole Sayid zombie claimed plot ended with no explanation, no view into Sayid's state of mind. It would have been so easy to just let him speak, to have one of his old comrades ask him how he felt. Jack knew he was supposedly infected, couldn't he have shown the same curiosity he showed about Locke's injury? What I get out of incomplete stories like this is that they never fully figured out what the deal was with Sayid. Now he is dead and they redeemed him, the zombie thing will be one of those plots that make me sigh when and if I watch the DVD's. As for Sun and Jin -- as main characters, they deserved to die in some other way than as collateral damage. Their deaths had nothing to do specifically with them, nor did Frank's. Darlton has said that they had to die because it was necessary to show once and for all that MIB is evil by having main character deaths, to show that no one is safe. Well, they died because they were the most red shirt of the remaining main characters, other than Miles, who will probably meet a similar fate. Who cared when Ilana died? I didn't. Obviously Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley are the important characters that are temporarily safe. The fact they killed off the least central of the original core characters just sends that message. If they had killed Sawyer, Kate, or Hurley, now THAT would have sent the message that all bets are off. Or Jack, can you imagine? I couldn't feel anything when Sun and Jin drowned, because it was so obvious that the writers demanded a big sacrifice and they had wrapped these characters' arc by reuniting them. And they had wrapped up Frank by getting to the plane and by establishing that Alt Locke can fly a Piper cub, at least well enough to crash it, so maybe he can fly a commercial jetliner. My son, who knows more about planes than I do, is disgusted with the Ajira plane prop because it's one of our inter-island planes, not big enough to fly trans-Pacific, LA to Guam. But no matter, it's got a tree through its windshield that no one has bothered to mention.
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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05-11-10, 01:27 PM (EST)
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86. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Who cared when Ilana died? I didn't.I have to admit, I laughed out loud when Ilana died. I burst out laughing and laughed all they way into the commercial break that followed. That probably wasn't the reaction they were hoping for, but I found it hilarious when she exploded. Mr. Fro was just looking at me, and I finally (when I caught my breath and wiped the tears of laughter) said, "Come ON! That was FUNNY!" For what it's worth, OutfrontGirl, I don't think that critique and criticism are unacceptable here. I think they're welcome and expected. Yours are well thought-out and I enjoy reading them even when I don't agree with you. Speaking ONLY for myself, I don't care for bringing the comments that the writers make outside of the show, or the podcasts, etc. I don't follow that stuff, so I suppose you could make the argument that I don't like when discussion includes outside info because I feel left out. Maybe. But really, I feel that if the writers want something to be important they need to make it important within the body of the work. Saying "Oh, this is important" outside of the work doesn't count. Or, maybe it does, but I don't think it *should* count - not until it's all over and the work can be assessed as a whole. Having done a fair amount (not vast, just fair) of scholarly literary criticism myself, I do understand that outside influences can and should be taken into account when assessing a work. Assessing it while in progress can lead to premature conclusions, and honestly, to me, pointing out loose ends before "the end" just seems impatient. Quite honestly, too, there is a point where some comments seem less about actual criticism and more like nitpicking. The line there is very fuzzy so it's more of a feeling than anything I care to cite with examples, but I have to admit to sometimes sighing and thinking that criticism has gone a bit too far into more self-indulgent nitpicking than something interesting and insightful.
Where I am willing to cut the writers of Lost some slack is that, unlike Ulysses, the medium of television has pitfalls and influences that writers for print don't have to deal with. You mention some of them - ratings, writers strikes, the network. Add in actor personalities, DUIs, other obligations. Then add in fan influences like the situation when the fans complained about Nikki and Paulo, so they supposedly scrapped that story arc. I'd like to have seen how Lost would have come out as a story free of those kinds of influences. It would probably be quite different. I have a three year old - I think they hit it on the head with the comparison between fans asking a ton of questions and a three year old. I think the fans should watch enjoy and think and discuss and criticize and look up references, and have fun. When it's all over, bring out the big guns and nail the writers to the wall for everything they missed. I do wonder whether some of the Lost fans will turn into those iconic Star Trek fans who show up at conventions and ask questions that have to be answered with "It's a TV show, people." Your mileage may vary. We are all watching the same show but at different levels of involvement. It could be a situation where, for people who are deeply involved with the details, that they're missing the forest for the trees. It could be that in my deliberate ignorance, I'm too stupid to know what I'm missing. Oh, and the crashed Oceanic prop isn't a Boeing 777, either.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-11-10, 08:17 PM (EST)
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90. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, frodis ... As opposed to the insulting and personally hurtful comment I received from FesterFan, which basically ruined my Mother's Day coming to the forum and seeing that anger directed at me. I thought Blows didn't allow for responses to get personal, and that definitely made me rethink whether I can post my opinion in any forum at Blows.I think that when people start talking about what the authors intend to do, that an answer from interviews given by the author are appropriate. >>> But really, I feel that if the writers want something to be important they need to make it important within the body of the work. So basically you are in the camp of New Criticism. Actually I agree with you 100% as to whether LOST will stand or fall when it's done -- it's what's in the episodes that's going to matter, not what the podcasts told us they were trying to do. Darlton has chosen to make weekly podcasts on the story for the past six years. They are seeking an "outside the medium" interaction with fans. If they didn't do such a thing, I wouldn't quote them. Also they attempted something different when they created the Lost Experience. Answers to what do the Numbers mean were released to the fans who participated. These will never appear in the TV episodes, but they are still part of LOST. The creators chose to break away from the traditional approach that only what can be found between the "book" covers is part of the work. But whether or not you like having LOST released through alternative channels, when it comes to the authors' intent, which people are discussing, surely the authors' podcasts and interviews are relevant. Not necessarily gospel, as one can argue pretty convincingly that they misled people from time to time. Had they chosen to be silent about their creation, then I wouldn't have anything to discuss outside the episodes. Yes, the work of LOST has in some ways responded to the fans, but then all TV shows are responsive to fans in the form of ratings. Refusal to respond = cancellation. For me the worst part of that has been that they tried to please the shipper fan base, but of course that made a lot of shippers quite happy. >>> Where I am willing to cut the writers of Lost some slack is that, unlike Ulysses, the medium of television has pitfalls and influences that writers for print don't have to deal with. You mention some of them - ratings, writers strikes, the network. Add in actor personalities, DUIs, other obligations. Then add in fan influences like the situation when the fans complained about Nikki and Paulo, so they supposedly scrapped that story arc. I'd like to have seen how Lost would have come out as a story free of those kinds of influences. It would probably be quite different. Actually, "Ulysses" went through plenty of trials and tribulations. Episode 13 caused an uproar when it came out. The events of Episodes 4 and 18 outraged people. The book was banned in the U.S.. There was a landmark lawsuit. There was TONS of outside pressure for Joyce to revise and edit out parts people didn't like. Plus it was jumped on by the most famous writers in the world as each chapter came out. LOST. Joyce was in debt, had two kids to support, and was always having to move because he couldn't pay his rent. Compare a writer's strike to Joyce's travails. The publisher of Dubliners destroyed the printing plates. That's like turning in the work, shooting the episode, and having someone at the network succeed in destroying every copy of the final edit - forcing the creator to go back to the drawing board - and dealing with that while living in another country on almost nothing. Joyce was willing to suffer, willing to starve, to publish what he had set out to write and not to change it to please people. That is the difference. Badk to LOST -- I understand and just have to agree to differ with the "wait and see" approach. You know, one big theme of LOST is the long con. Well, many viewers feel that the series has been a long con. Now, when a person is being conned, making a rule that no questions will be asked until the thing has run its course is the best way to be the perfect mark. Some people want to suspend their concerns, wait and see, and others developed skepticism along the way and prefer to watch the end with muted expectations so as not to feel utterly "taken" when it's over. Personal choice. As a note on the reception of this last episode, the Fuselage, which is inhabited almost solely by big fans of the series, has Didn't Love It and Loved It topics every week. This week the Didn't Love It
http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=119389
has so far 114 replies and 8897 views. The Loved It topic has 32 replies and 1014 views. Most of the Loved It replies are gushing, whereas the Didn't Love It is very well written and contains almost all the articulate responses. There's nothing definitive about these numbers, but having watched these topics over the last five years, a well-received episode typically has a balance between Loved and Didn't Love. LA X was balanced. Dr. Linus was balanced. Happily Ever After swung way to the Loved It side. The Last Recruit and The Candidate are heavily towards the "worst episode ever" side of the spectrum in so far as fan reaction goes. These guys need to get it in gear. I hope tonight is awesome!!!!
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FesterFan1 5947 desperate attention whore postings
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05-11-10, 07:57 PM (EST)
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89. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
I don't have an issue with criticism, but I do have an issue with unfair criticism. If you had merely said "I don't like Season 6. I think the flash sideways are pointless. I don't like the direction the story is going." etc., that's fine. But some of your criticisms contain misrepresentations that I felt needed to be called out. You have characterized Damon and Carlton as liars who have promised one thing and delivered another who then want to go and hide. In the very post I'm responding to, you claim they were dishonest about their process because of how it would impact ratings. If I were one of them, I would find this to be insulting. You don't know this to be true, and yet you state it as fact. It seems you are unhappy about the finished product and want to assign bad motives. I'm calling that out.You say that Damon and Carlton have said that "everything mattered". OK, assuming for a moment that this is true, both the words "everything" and "mattered" are subjective terms. To illustrate my point, consider the character of Annie, Ben's childhood friend. D&C have said she's "important", and many people (myself included) believed that to mean "important to the mythology of LOST". There was a sense that she would reappear as someone we already knew, or that she would be part of a larger story, but they later revealed in a podcast that she was important to understanding Ben. They showed her, and the doll that she gave Ben (that appeared again when Ben was an adult), to show that Ben had limited involvement with girls/women/friends, and that his arrested social development would impact his dealings with Juliet and others. So was Annie "important"? Yes, she was important to shed a bit of light on Ben's social development, but she was not "important" in terms of the greater mythology of the show. I don't see this as D&C being dishonest. Rather I think that the fans (again, myself included) often expect a higher (or different) level of importance than what D&C meant. If you don't like what Annie, or Libby, or Mr. Eko, or the Dharma Initiative turned out to be, that's your prerogative. I just think it's unfair to claim that D&C were dishonest about any of them. I still believe (and have from Season 1) that the creators of this show have known the big picture from very early on. They may not deliver that vision 100% effectively, and they definitely made mistakes along the way (Nikki and Paulo, Michael's story pretty much in its entirety, and Charlie's Season 2 story arc are all pretty high on my list of missteps), but that doesn't mean that they haven't known what the island is all this time. They are not writing this "on the fly". Another point on the matter of criticism is that if I read what you've written, aren't I allowed to disagree? Or is the critic immune from criticism? I happen to be enjoying Season 6. It's not my favorite season (not yet, anyway), but it's not my least favorite, either. I like the flash sideways technique. I don't know what it is yet, but I'm willing to give them latitude. There have been several episodes in seasons past that I thought were filler on the initial viewing, only to go back and re-watch them and see things that were important later on. Take "Tricia Tanaka Is Dead", for example. When I first saw that episode, I thought it was nice but nothing special. However, that episode introduced the Dharma van that Hurley later used to mow down Tom and his crew...oh, and by the way, that van happened to be the one that Ben gassed his father in during the Dharma purge. Kind of an eerie episode to watch the second time around. It's a feel-good story that had mythology ties that were unknown to the viewer (yet totally planned by the writers) when it first aired. The point is, defending something that is being criticized does not make criticism "unacceptable". It makes it open to scrutiny. Just like the thing being criticized. I never said "You can't criticize LOST! It's sacred!" But I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone call what I consider to be the best TV show of my lifetime "derivative" and not say something. Fester
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-11-10, 09:47 PM (EST)
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91. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
It's one thing to say something civil and disagree, but you got personal about it, and while I can handle disagreement with my position all day long, I get hurt as easily as the next person when someone crosses the line and gets insulting to me.That's why I didn't respond to the points you made in your post, because it wasn't civil and respectful of me. No matter how protective you feel of the creative team, that doesn't give you the right to jump on me for my opinion, only to disagree politely. There is plenty of basis for a discussion to back up what I said, but why not go inform yourself of the evidence, by checking in at The Fuselage. There is hours of dialogue on what they knew and what they said, from different perspectives. There's no need to reinvent the wheel over here. I sincerely don't have time to go find all the links to all the podcasts and interviews, but they are all over there, scattered around in various topics titled variations of "What Darlton Knew" and "did Darlton lie to us?" Some topics are more emotional, but some are worth reading.
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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
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05-13-10, 10:26 PM (EST)
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93. "WARNING and reminder" |
Fester, it's good to see you here after so long. Hope you're doing well.I love the fact that you're defending the showrunners and the end of Lost so vigorously and articulately. But I think you may have forgotten one of the rules here, which is that you can't launch personal attacks as part of your argument. So, when you say to another poster: Your heavy-handed and ridiculous criticism has brought me out of lurk mode.... Hypocritical much? ...you've crossed the line, and I bet that you probably remember that, at least in retrospect. I'm out of practice at issuing warnings, and I don't want to get back into practice, so please make sure to confine your challenges to the analysis of the show and keep away from such characterizations of other posters in the future. Thanks.
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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
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05-14-10, 02:59 PM (EST)
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95. "RE: Are you kidding me?" |
You're probably right in your charges about me. Heck, I probably should have been banned long ago myself. I know I've made posts that were over the line, and I've made a couple that were WAY over the line (I think I've apologized for those, but that doesn't make them go away, and I know that). Maybe that's why the fact that this was over the line was so clear to me when it was alerted. And I agree with you that, to the best of my recollection, you never alerted any of the long-term posters for personal attacks. I also agree with you that the show runners for Lost have been very forthcoming about their work, as forthcoming as I've ever seen from Hollywood. But that still doesn't justify a personal attack, and I know that you know that too. I'm sorry if my post was offensive to you. And I'd be sorry if you left because of it. But we've tried (despite occasional lapses, including some of mine) to be the board where you can debate ideas but not insult, and we've made it through almost 10 years that way. I really don't want to change now, even if it means that people move to other boards (or other outlets) where the standards are less stringent.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-15-10, 04:10 AM (EST)
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96. "RE: Are you kidding me?" |
Thanks AyaKFester may think it's fun to add a sig line of Fester -"Ruining Mother's Day since 2010" but his insults did hurt me and did ruin my day. I like feeling that Blows is a place where I can open up a topic without discovering that someone just labeled me a heavy-handed hypocrite." because I dared speak my opinion of some TV writing/writers. I've been posting in this community for nine years last month. I was once a part of the semi-original OT forum community, and I left because of the personal animosities ... and made a rule where I only post on the show forums. This kind of thing where someone flings insults and other people immediately show up and pat that person on the back makes me think I took a wrong turn and ended up in the "make it personal" forum. I'm just here to talk about LOST and there are a bunch of people here who don't agree with me and vice versa, but it shouldn't be personal. btw, if Fester doesn't care about the guidelines, that's his decision, but he has absolutely no right to tell me that I'm not allowed to take them seriously, and no matter what his history with AyaK, AyaK is a mod here! Dungeon Master? OK, moving on, would like to go back to civil discussion as this series concludes. I am a fan. I've spent countless hours following up allusions and connections provided by the show. I'm a fan of Survivor too, but occasionally Survivor BLOWS and even the people who watched every season say so. Oh wait, there's a website called that ... I used to know a bunch of people who posted there and liked to rank on its executive producer and CBS. But some of the same people cannot tolerate any questioning of certain TV writers who work for ABC? This is my current understanding of some of the background to the show, and I'm open to correction. J.J. Abrams (he who went off and let Alias end with one of the worst muddles of series endings ever) -- bailed on this show after or even during the pilot, because he got the gig directing Star Trek. Damon Lindelof inherited it and was overwhelmed, so he went to his old mentor Carlton Cuse. The only previous hit this pair ever worked on was Nash Bridges, a kind of cheesy cop buddy show that only ever got on the air because the network inherited a contractual obligation to give Don Johnson another series. The ABC exec who green-lighted the LOST pilot budget knew he was getting fired for his poor performance and many think he approved the most expensive pilot ever simply to thumb his nose at the network. The first season and second they had some of the finest writers in the television business, who then left the show. So what in all this is a recipe for a show that's so marvelous and well thought out that criticism is a heresy? There's a lot of great elements to the show, but I think it became such a phenomenon than they just had to keep putting stuff in that seemed really cool, but they had no clue how to pull it together at the end. And now they've convinced themselves that they're geniuses, too bad, if they didn't think they can do no wrong they might have paid more regard to the established rules for how to wrap up a story in a satisfying way.
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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
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05-15-10, 03:20 PM (EST)
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97. "RE: Are you kidding me?" |
I agree with most of what you said. Actually, though, there's more backstory to the LOST pilot. Lloyd Braun and Susan Lyne had fought continuously with the moron Michael Eisner since taking over ABC, and they pretty much knew when Eisner planned to fire them (because he had to wait to avoid some multi-million dollar penalties, after the board was so upset that he paid such penalties to Michael Ovitz). Therefore, they decided to greenlight a bunch of shows that they had been pushing over their two years at ABC, against Eisner's opposition, in their last pilot season, which (in addition to Lost) included Desperate Housewives and Grey's Anatomy. As it happened, the shows became hits, which had the dual advantage of boosting their reputations post-firing and finally proving to the Disney board that Eisner didn't know squat about TV.
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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
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05-15-10, 04:31 PM (EST)
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99. "Disagree" |
I'm sorry, but I find this whole turn in the conversation laughable.First of all, I don't think Fester personally attacked you, OFG. He said your criticism was heavy-handed and rediculous. The depth of your analysis, and obvious dislike of how this season is going, could easily be seen as over the top by the non-obsessed viewer. Fester saying he feels your comments are condescending, is not exactly a stretch, or some big personal insult! It's a freakin TV show, not Joyce, or some other classic work of art. Seriously, I find all the comparisons pretty hysterical, and that is NOT a personal attack!!! Second, I don't see where anyone immediately showed up to pat Fester on tha back. A couple of us said a suprised Hello, because it has been so long since a sorely missed poster showed up here. Nobody piled on poor OFG here. btw, if Fester doesn't care about the guidelines, that's his decision, but he has absolutely no right to tell me that I'm not allowed to take them seriously, and no matter what his history with AyaK, AyaK is a mod here! Dungeon Master? ROFL! Talk about hypocritical! My memory isn't perfect, but I can vividly recall when YOU personally attacked Webby on these boards, and for whatever reason, were given a pass. So, this statement reeks of hypocracy. Reeks. That, and the Dungeon Master comment is pretty.dang.funny. I bet AyaK even laughed. I know I did. Hahahaha! I miss HUMOR here. A lot. This whole thing stinks, and reminds me of the past that also stunk. Sadly, most of the life, humor and creativity has been sucked out of this place, and this kind of BS just proves it. Ruined your mothers day?!? Really? Really? As a long gone member here used to say. Whatever.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-17-10, 06:10 AM (EST)
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101. "RE: Disagree" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-17-10 AT 06:12 AM (EST)>>> It's a freakin TV show, not Joyce, or some other classic work of art. Seriously, I find all the comparisons pretty hysterical, I wasn't holding it up to that standard, although when you say it's a freakin TV show -- are you aware that people can and do get Ph.D.'s in English these days who write dissertations analyzing TV shows? The separation between books and popular culture media is fading away. That's not why I brought up Joyce. A lot of people are talking about the impossibility of writing a show that makes sense from start to finish when it's written as a serial. I mentioned that some far more complex works have been written and published as serials. Then the comment was made that the Lost production faces difficulties that Joyce didn't have, and I replied to the point that Joyce's trials were as severe or more so. I never compared the two creations in the way you seem to think. We were talking about the method of writing and airing/publishing one bit at a time and how the creator deals with keeping continuity with the earlier bits, whether it's possible to write something that makes sense when viewed as a whole. btw, the writers have not been shy to bring up Joyce. Ben was reading "Ulysses" on the Ajira flight. I'm not an obsessed viewer. I watch it and think about it, comment on it. People who make weekly podcasts, the people who put together Lostpedia, are a mite obsessed. Lostpedia is a really cool accomplishment though. I would be surprised if there aren't a number of dissertations written about Lost in the future. Even if it didn't succeed 100%, it's one of the most interesting and ambitious series ever, and it's gained the status of a true phenomenon just in terms of the interest it's evoked in fans around the world. 
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weltek 16933 desperate attention whore postings
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05-17-10, 09:57 AM (EST)
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102. "RE: Disagree" |
I read your whole post again with Seth Meyer's voice. Thanks for making my morning, True!I'd jump in defense of Fester (because yeah, I felt OFG's posts were calling for a fight, and someone came to give her one), but I found the more invested I tried to become in the extreme arguments about LOST, the less I enjoyed it. And you know what, I'm proud of enjoying it. For all its flaws, it's still one of the most amazing, innovative shows I've seen. Kind of like when Buggy goes to clean out her fridge and makes a mystery casserole for dinner, right?
-A Tribetastic Creation
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-17-10, 09:53 PM (EST)
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103. "RE: Disagree" |
I was not calling for a fight. I was talking about the same things that many many people are saying. I've gotten a number of kudos for good posts on The Fuselage, and absolutely no one has jumped on me there.What I didn't realize before posting here is that this forum isn't tolerant of diverse opinions. If I wanted to have a fight with someone, I would use a whole different tone. I came in peace. I also didn't realize this was the don't think that hard about the show forum. There should be a sticky post explaining the bent of this LOST forum, saying "Do not Enter Here if you don't have the same mindset." That's what I'm hearing. I don't like this. This bothers me. This makes me uncomfortable. This is too extreme for me. This is too literary for me. It's like a private club, not a forum. Flowerpower posts some great recaps here with her spin. That's why I initially came to join in the conversation.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-10, 06:30 AM (EST)
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44. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Did Frank get out alive?No, he was knocked down in the control room and assumed to be drowned. But, could he still be alive? Stranger things have happened on this show!
Is FLocke "aware" that Jack et al are still alive or is it Desmond that he wants.
At the end of the show Flocke told Claire that the sub had sunk, and Claire responded, "What? They are all dead?", and Flocke responded, "not all of them"...I don't know how he knows. Which also makes me think if he knows that there are candidates left alive, then he must also be aware that Desmond is alive. But, someone has mentioned that perhaps he knows that some of the candidates are still alive because he can not yet leave the Island. He then replied that he was off to "finish the job", as he grabbed his gun and left. Regarding Frank being dead. I think the fact that John Locke in Sideways world is a pilot is significant....theory: Sideways John will take over Island John's body and fly them off of the Island, OR, perhaps Flocke can use those skills that Sideways John had to fly himself off of the island? 
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CTgirl 7073 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-10, 07:34 AM (EST)
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47. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
But that would give the off-island John Locke a chance for redemption, to be a hero! He's happier in his sideways world but he's still a bit of a loser for crashing the plane (although it probably wasn't his fault - whatever happened, happened!)
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CTgirl 7073 desperate attention whore postings
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05-07-10, 11:49 AM (EST)
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56. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
Yes, I think that too. I didn't say it that well. Sideways Locke thinks he's a bit of a loser for crashing the plane and injuring his father and himself although he doesn't know what went wrong. Maybe I'm reading too much into his body language, but he seems to be blaming himself for the accident. I agree that perhaps nothing went wrong other than the original time line Karma intervening somehow - that's what I meant by whatever happened, happened.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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05-09-10, 08:14 AM (EST)
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69. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
No, CTgirl, you are right....John Locke in Sideways is stifled by guilt, all because of what happened with the plane crash and hurting his father. He's fixated on what "he did", as you say, and Jack told him, whatever happened, happened. Jack says that he struggles with moving on too....we all know that! He wants Locke to go first, and move beyond the past...Somehow the resolution or the ending of Lost, imo, will all boil down to Jack and Locke. Just as the main conflict of the show has revolved around Jack and Locke. This time, however, it will be about conflict resolution. I am hoping that somehow the events in the Sideways world will give them a way out on the Island world.... Regarding all of the Island rules and the special properties of the Island, the things that Jacob, MiB, Widmore, and Eloise seem privy to....I am hoping that these mysteries will be exposed in this next episode. To me, it seems as if Jack is starting to figure it all out in both timelines. In Sideways world he's figured out that everyone he seems to be meeting was indeed on that Flight 815 from Australia. On the Island, he figured out with Richard that he's special too. He was left to ponder the significance of his name on the dial at the Lighthouse, as well as his family home in the mirrors. He told the Losties that if they did nothing to the bomb that it would be okay, he knew it couldn't kill them, as he now realizes that Flocke can not kill them....he's figuring out the rules. Then, Sayid told him that he was the one....and he keeps recalling that Locke had told him, that he wishes he had believed him. As Jack starts to embrace his special relationship to the Island, I think he will walk the path of Jacob. Somehow, I think, that Sideways Locke is still integral to the resolution. And, at this point, I am hopeful.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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05-05-10, 08:16 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-06-10 AT 03:29 AM (EST)Back in Season 2, the writers sorted out the A and B characters for us, and now it comes full circle. A poster at Fuselage called Piecar pointed out something that is very true and shows how derivative these writers are. He said that the only ones that needed to be left at the end were Luke (Jack), Hans Solo (Sawyer), Leia (Kate), and Chewie (Hurley). The two beefcakes, the girl, and the comic relief. Now if Jack would just figure out that Kate is his half sister, Sawyer could get the girl. Oh wait, Jack found out Claire was his half-sister. Well maybe Kate is Claire's real sister and she's Aaron's aunt. Wait for it ... And yes, Darth Smokie is Jack's father, or at least he took on the form of his father. So he must be bad. But wait, once upon Darth was a Jedi, and good. What made him turn to the dark side? Maybe we'll find out next week. Jacob -- Obi Wan died too. The beginning of Return of the Jedi, where Leia has to put on the bikini and is chained, Season 3 with Kate in the cages and they made her wear that dress, and live in a cage ... now where has Yoda been hiding? George Lucas borrowed everything he wrote from archetypes of mythology and folklore, but at least he acknowledged that it wasn't original.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-06-10, 08:40 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
I fully expect that the only resolution we will see between now and the end is how the Flash Sideways connects with the island world and what is the conflict between Jacob and MIB.Anything else that we don't understand from the past we can kiss an explanation goodbye. This doesn't please me but it's how they're playing it. I find it annoying as Darlton said they didn't come up with the Flash Sideways device until after Season 4 -- so another thing that wasn't part of any master plan, and honestly I am not at all engaged in it ,,, Having it as some possible epilogue or redemption just makes the stakes on the island seem less crucial.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-06-10, 10:20 PM (EST)
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52. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
The conflict between Jacob and MIB should explain all the big questions like what is the island, why were the Losties brought there and how do they save themselves.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-09-10, 03:52 PM (EST)
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73. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.14: "The Candidate"" |
A mixed bag of an episode but overall I'll give it a thumb up. At least the story is moving forward again instead of sideways.The stupid plane finally reappeared. Whoever rigged it with C4 did a lousy job of concealing it. Why dive the sub? They should have let MIB jump on for a ride, go out half a mile, then dive! And really they didn't need to be very far down, 20 feet would have been sufficient. Sayid's death didn't surprise me, I'd been expecting it ever since his resurrection to the dark side. He broke the hold MIB had on him and from that point there was only one way he was going to reunite with Nadia, in death. In the end he was the good soldier who muffled the grenade sparing his comrades. Noble, perhaps, but someone had to do it or they were all dead. The story demanded it. Frank's death was pointless. Well, it was plot but not story. Shame to waste a name character on a nameless redshirt demise. Sun and Jin dying together, great story there on the love angle, and motivational to the survivors. Far from perfect, though. Sun would have been begging him to leave her, get away from the island, raise their daughter. She was on the verge of leaving him before they got on Oceanic 815. These stupid "rules" are becoming quite frustrating.
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AyaK 10083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-18-10, 10:38 PM (EST)
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104. "Explanation of locking" |
I locked this thread earlier, but I wanted to offer a quick post-mortem on it as well.First, for those of you who wanted to post here to show your support for Fester, I'm sure he thanks you. But all it does is add to the forest fire. That's why I locked this thread. Second, I thought the personal comments were unmistakeable, although I enjoyed the debate about the analysis. I don't know why we couldn't have had the latter without the former. Third, it really looks like waht happened here was in part a dispute about whether a single-board show could accomodate both praise and bashing. Our policy was always that our posters were mature enough to handle both in the same thread for shows that didn't attract a lot of posts, which has certainly been the case for Lost this year. But we haven't had many renewals of that conflict since Starting Over was on the air, when we had to split the forums to keep praisers and bashers from electronically targeting each other in threads like this one except ten times as vitriolic. I think this is the first time we've had to face this issue since then -- and once again, it exploded. Oh well, at least it will be over as of Sunday.
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