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"Speculation: post incident"
Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 09:54 AM (EST)
 
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"Speculation: post incident" |
LAST EDITED ON 02-05-10 AT 05:23 PM (EST)I thought it would be a good idea to devote a thread to all of the things that would not have happened following the detonation of jughead at the swan site in 1977. Remember Daniel Faraday's warning to Richard that they had a broken bomb, upon viewing the man with the radiation burns. He warned then that a bomb like that would destroy the entire island and everything on it. So, with the news from Juliet who is now beyond the grave, that "it worked", let's think about what would and would not have happened post 1977. 1. The original intent of detonating the bomb: Oceanic Flight 815 would have never crashed in 2004.
2. The Black Rock would have still landed, Richard Alpert would still be on the Island.
3. Jacob and XLocke/Nemesis would be destroyed with the destruction of the island, as they appear to be able to be killed....or do they?
4. The others would be there, but who was in charge...Eloise. So Eloise, Widmore, and young Ben would have been killed in 1977 from the bomb, therefore, there would be no Penelope, nor Daniel Faraday, and young Charlotte would have died with the Island as well. There would have been no Charlie(ETA: Baby Charlie Hume).
5. Without Widmore or Penelope, Desmond would not have even entered a sailing race, he would have left the monastery and never met Penny...no telling what he would be doing.
6. When did Rousseau and the French team come to the Island? I think after 1977, (the distress signal had been going for 16 years, ~1988. So Rousseau would have never come to the Island, and Alex would have been born most likely with both parents around...
7. Paik would still be a big time Korean Mobster, Sun and Jin would most likely be destined to misery, pain, and separation....but would they, remember Jin's plan, after consulting his own Father at the Fishing Village, was to do this one last job for Paik, and then get out. Again, I am hopeful.
8. The Dharma Initiative would have been wiped out....was Miles' mother already off the Island, or was she still there? If she was still there, there would be no more Miles. ....I'm sure that there is SO much more...
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 05:27 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Speculation: post incident" |
Gotcha. THAT Charlie. I thought I'd missed some major plot point!
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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 11:29 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Speculation: post incident" |
Wasn't Ben Alex's father? So she wouldn't have been born.
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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 11:51 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Speculation: post incident" |
Ah, yes. I couldn't recall.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 04:10 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Speculation: post incident" |
I don't think the Incident destroyed the island. They all are on it still at the Temple. The island at the bottom of the ocean I would think is because of something else, like a turn of the wheel or it's hiding. Islands just don't sink when a bomb goes off. A lot of Dharma was evacuated prior to the bomb. Probably just those left are gone. Penny could still be alive. She was born off island. Widemore took many trips to the mainland. It is what got him banished. She probably was born prior to 1977. Does not mean that her and Desmond are married of course. We don't know if the Others would have died either do we? Richard said he watched them all die. They could have been protected somehow. All we know is that the bomb went off. The hatch was still built in one timeline, possible/probable in the alternate one it was not. Truth is we really can't figure out stuff yet because we don't know all the connections still that could cause a ripple effect to change people's lives. How is Christian connected? That would play a big role. What about Hurley's father, Micheal's ex-wife, Nadia, Kate's father etc., these are characters that have been introduced with missing "time" that could have connected them to the island prior the incident.
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 05:26 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Speculation: post incident" |
LAST EDITED ON 02-05-10 AT 05:27 PM (EST)I don't think the Incident destroyed the island either. How could a bomb that can sink as island leave all of Dharmaville intact? Houses, swingset. . . There is a connection between Christian and Locke, not only that they both arrived on the island in a coffin but wasn't DeadLocke wearing Christian's shoes? We know Jacob could travel freely on/off the island but have speculated that Smokey can't - or can he but he needs a vessel? For all we know, there is a giant ash ring around the island that Smokey can't cross but if he falls from the sky. . . loophole! Now that we know that Smokey can make himself look like other people (only dead people?) it makes me wonder about all of those times we saw a smiling Locke emerge from the jungle out of nowhere and with some sort of knowledge. Was it Real-time Locke or Smokey Time-traveling Locke? Wasn't there an ash ring around Jacob's cabin?
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-06-10, 07:53 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Speculation: post incident" |
Perhaps if we posed the question to ponder like so:When considering the time continuum where the survivors never landed on the Island, because the Island wasn't there as it was blown to smitherines in 1977. Clearly, it's different than the original time/flight when they first crashed in 2004. Are these consequences of things that they themselves did? What differences are there likely to be in the new time line with them saftely landing in LA?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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02-06-10, 02:57 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Speculation: post incident" |
Let's take this from another angle. First, we must realize that Faraday's words were wrong. He said "you cannot change the future" but what he really meant was "you cannot change the past". I can be 100% sure that, in the future, no inglorious basterd will ever find a way to travel in time, go to 1940 Germany and kill Hitler. Why? Because, if anyone did, it would already be part of our past. What I cannot be sure of was if the action of traveling in time in itself creates a parallel universe where Hitler dies. I suppose time travel would require an incredible amount of energy, maybe enough to uncurl some of the 10 or 26 dimensions of the space-time continuum as speculated by string theory. However, those parallel universes are as separated from our reality has what happened before the Big Bang that created our universe. Maybe that's why I don't really care for what happens in LA 2010. I signed up to follow what happens on the island. I know the writers will tie everything up in a nice little package so I'll let them handle it. I won't waste energy on it because we know nothing about it and I much prefer the island's questions anyway. The only way to explain the "sunken Island with Oceanic 815 landing safely in LA" reality is that something else happened to destroy the island, that it wasn't Jack's H bomb. Oceanic 815 landed safely because it didn't need to crash on the island first. Nemesis found a different loophole that we know nothing about. Now the reality where "Dharma builds the hatch and Juliet gets trapped underneath" is the reality I'm interested in because that's the one that saw XLocke kill Jacob.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-08-10, 08:04 AM (EST)
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15. "Differences between the flights of 815" |
Listing all differences I noticed between the two Oceanic Flight 815's...the original that ended up crashing on the island, and the later flight that did not crash.1. Jack is afraid of turbulence now, where Rose was afraid originally 2. Hurley is the luckiest man alive later 3. Jack has lots of deja-vu feelings 4. Charlie aspirates Heroin in an act of suicide, or by accident, in the bathroom whereas Charlie just went to the restroom to take a heroin hit before.
Charlie tells Jack he "was supposed to die". 5. Jack has a mysterious scar, wound, tatoo on his neck 6. DESMOND. 7. Sawyer tells Hurley to be careful with who he tells that he's won the lottery, because people will take advantage of him....can't help but wonder if he's still a conman or no? 8. Stewardess gives Jack only one bottle of liquor, originally it was 2. 9. Locke: At the beginning of the flight it was impossible to wheel him onto the airplane, but at the end of the flight now, he is able to be wheeled? Some feel his outlook is more positive....did he go on the walkabout or is he lying to Boone? 10. Boone is not accompanied by Shannon. I'm sure there are more...
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-09-10, 07:26 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Differences between the flights of 815" |
If we are to get to know these "new" characters I hope we can believe what they say, that the writers would try to get us familiar with them ASAP.That's a good point, michel. I noted Sawyer's reaction as well, and you could be right, perhaps Hurley will become the next target... and, how could I forget... Where is Christian's body, and where are Locke's knives?
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-10-10, 08:25 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Differences between the flights of 815" |
LAST EDITED ON 02-10-10 AT 08:54 PM (EST)Jack - seems softer and more vulnerable. I think he has carry-over unconscious memories of the plane crash, and that's why he's nervous. His reaction to the news that his father isn't on the plane is not as forceful as the Jack who had a meltdown in Sydney when they refused to let the coffin on the plane. Remember what a scene he made? It seems to me that this Jack has learned that he doesn't always get his way, that sometimes things happen that he can't control. The old Jack thought that he could control everything, at least he tried. The old Jack had lost faith in his ability to work miracles, because of the patients he couldn't save. I'm not sure the original Jack would have held out hope to Locke as he did. Sawyer and Hugo -
I agree that Sawyer will target Hurley. He looked at him. Con is for confidence. Step one is to build the mark's confidence in you. Sawyer did that by warning Hugo to avoid people who are after him, implying that he Sawyer is an honest person who is concerned for Hugo. However, there may be part of Sawyer that is not the hardened con man any more. If you think about it, Sawyer right after the crash was as selfish and anti-social as a person could be. Sawyer on the plane doesn't use any nicknames even though he is meeting Hugo for the first time! How different is that? He had time to call Hurley something derogatory before he found out about the lottery - a chicken joke, something. Kate - if you recall the Pilot episode, the relationship between her and the Marshall was very acrimonious. He was almost sadistic to her. This Marshall wasn't mean on the plane, and I don't think they were in first class any more. The Marshall in original reality wouldn't have let her go to the bathroom or have given her enough time to free her hands. He gave her a lot of time. The original Marshall treated Kate like she was the most devious bad girl ever. Kate who had not gone through the bonding experiences on the island would most likely not have gone back for Claire or taken her to hospital or stayed for Claire. While it's true that Kate helped Cassidy out, as a fellow outlaw, Kate was really centered mostly on her own agenda and her own self-preservation. The new Kate was visibly softened by Claire's pregnancy. The name Aaron resonated with her. It feels to me like some of the effects of their experiences prior to the bomb detonation have stayed with them. Kate loved Aaron and devoted herself to him. She went back to the island to find Claire. Now she has a feeling of connection to Claire and her unborn baby, and she likes the name Aaron - for reasons that probably make no sense based on her past life as she recalls it. Claire - did not want to keep her baby because she couldn't handle it. Now she's alone in a strange big city in a foreign country, and she seems to be considering keeping the baby. I would spec this is because in the other reality she did keep Aaron and as we know loved him. Locke - is different because he's more accepting and less in denial. He tells Jack that he's irretrievably broken with an air of someone who has accepted. The original Locke accepted nothing. Also he and Jack bond even though Jack and Locke put each other off from the get-go after the crash. Charlie - on the original flight, he wasn't suicidal. He was controlled by his habit and dealing with his depression by getting high. Once could ask, is he suicidal here or was he trying to swallow his stash before going through customs? I think his comment that Jack should have let him die tells us he made a suicide attempt. Remember that they wanted Driveshaft to make a comeback and that's why he's going to LA. Even without Liam, he should have something to pursue, but it seems like he's finished with himself. But there would have been nothing noble about this new death. Bernard and Rose -
We don't see much of Bernard, but Rose is cheerful. Remember that she went to Australia to get her cancer cured, and was told nothing could be done for her, yet she doesn't seem to be carrying an emotional burden. She seems perfectly OK. Michael and Walt - we don't see them, whether because they aren't on the plane or because they can't make the actor look like 2004 Walt. I just hope someone claims Vincent at LAX.  It's also possible that Walt's mother didn't die, which is why they are on the flight. I always thought his mother worked for a sinister company, possibly owned by Widmore or the Others, the mysterious international law firm. Boone and Shannon - Lindelof laughed and said "maybe the actress is unavailable" in an interview aired on premiere night. Have a feeling Maggie Grace was working elsewhere. He said they "hope" to see Shannon later in the season. Boone seems different too. He seems less angry about Shannon. He clicks with Locke, as he did on the island (FP pointed that out to me). As a plot point, recall that Shannon set the airport security on Sayid. Wasn't it so that she could get in first class? I don't remember how that worked, but Sayid was hassled because of Shannon. So if she never took the flight, then Sayid would be spared that. Arzt - interesting that they brought this character back. Sayid - we don't see much of him, but it looks like he will go look up Nadia, as he had found out that she was in LA and that's why he's going there. Ethan - should not be in LA. He was in Otherton when the plane crashed. Granted that the state of the Others in 2004 is a big question mark, but if nothing had changed, there was not time for him to travel to LA. The Others of 2004 used the submarine to go off island. Is Ethan an Other? We know that he spent time off island as he was there with Juliet, so I don't think we know. Desmond - the producers say his presence is very important. Why did he go to Sydney, and why is this Scotsman flying to LA? The race around the world was a few years ago, back before Jack married Sarah. If he even went on the race. He met Jack because he was prepping for it, and yet he has no memory of Jack. Whereas in the original timeline he recognized Jack even in a somewhat demented state, and Jack recognized him. It looks like they've never met, which could mean that he married Penny and never went on the race to impress her father. Or something else. Also, Desmond did not say his trademark line of "see you in another life, brother." btw, Penny's mother was not an Other. I remember from something that Widmore got flack for consorting with a non-islander. Penny has no prior connection to the island, so I can't think of a reason why Desmond wouldn't have met her. Remember that in Flashes Before My Eyes, Eloise tells Desmond that the world as they know it will end (or something like that) if he marries Penny. It's his destiny to go to the island. Then the same Eloise sends Jack and company back to the island to rectify things. Eloise seems to have a keen understanding of how it all works. Something to ponder - if Jack going back means the Hatch is never built, then what about Desmond's part that was so necessary? And what did Desmond do to save the world? Was it that he accidentally didn't input the numbers and thus crashed the plane? Or was it that he operated the failsafe and kept the Hatch electromagnetism from destroying the island? Speaking of which, there is something more powerful than an atom bomb, and if the EM energy of the Hatch got out of control, perhaps that could account for a sunken island.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-11-10, 07:57 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Differences between the flights of 815" |
LAST EDITED ON 02-11-10 AT 09:19 AM (EST)Am watching it again ...
hah, I knew it was weird that Sawyer didn't use any nicknames, but I just realized that Hurley called SAWYER a nickname. He called him "Levis dude" - so they have a role reversal as Jack and Rose did over the turbulence. Also, Sawyer bumps into Kate in the elevator and says I was on your flight but doesn't call her Freckles. He doesn't push the envelope with any personal exchange. Forgot to note that Hugo is famous now. He does commercials for his chicken chain that make him easily recognizable, even an Australian version. He was anonymous before. He talks business -- something about the Outback name -- while on the phone when Kate is at the curb going for the taxi. Not like Hurley. Rose and Bernard are all lovey-dovey. They always loved each other, but their mode of relating was habitual bickering -- like an old married couple. Now they don't bicker or sigh at each other's ways, not even once. Jack is definitely a different guy than he was the first time. You can tell that everything is striking him as slightly off, out of sync. He reacts during the turbulence not just as a frequent flyer but like oh here we go, it's happening again. He doesn't have conscious memory of a prior crash, but he has some kind of deep memory or unconscious memory or awareness. I also notice the plane is not particularly full. I think the original flight 815 was pretty packed. Jack has two empty seats next to him, enough for Desmond to move out of his own seat. None of the people sitting in the plane look like the red shirts we've always seen. There are Asian businessmen wearing headphones, an Asian couple other than Sun and Jin. (I realize that a lot of passengers died in the crash, but the survivors were largely Caucasian American. This group is more ethnic.) Note: the shark patrolling the sunken statue still has the DHARMA logo. Big change - it seems Jin and Sun are not married! At customs, after Jin is taken off, the clerk addresses her as Miss Paik. As this is customs, she is clearly getting her name from Sun's passport. Either Sun and Jin aren't married or for some reason Sun is traveling under an incorrect travel document, which seems unlikely. Lastly, one of the hallmarks of original Lostie interaction was that they were all suspicious of each other and didn't share information well -- even harmless information. On the plane, we see Boone share info about Shannon with only a casual question, and Locke doing the same (lying maybe, but responding without reserve). Jack and Locke have a candid exchange while dealing with the lost luggage. Arzt questions Hugo and gets an autograph. Not revealing squat except under duress was a hallmark of these people. They seem profoundly changed. And Jack really is much more mellow about the coffin loss than the original Jack would have been. Rewatch the scene where he's told that the coffin isn't going on the plane and compare his intensity to the way he handles the news that the airline lost the coffin. Subtle but very different, and I would say the difference is Jack's ability to accept that things aren't going as he planned.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-10-10, 09:42 PM (EST)
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19. "Space time continuum" |
LAST EDITED ON 02-10-10 AT 09:55 PM (EST)I'm not too into science even though at one time I read a lot of science fiction, including classic time travel stories. So I am not even trying to deal with physics here, but this is my understanding of how these writers are treating time travel. As someone (Daniel?) explained during Season 5, a character's experience of personal past and future is a continuum no matter what time period their body is inhabiting. As we saw, the castaways in 1977 are older than they were in 2004. Those who got back to LA and those who stayed on the island are the same three years farther along in experience at the end of Season 5 than at the outset of the series, whether they went off island, time jumped to 1977, or ended up living in "the present" on the island. Darlton has said that they're not really into the time paradox theme. They're more into the type of time travel where the people who came from the future were always part of the influences that shaped what happened. For example, Charlotte recognized Daniel because a version of himself that was still in the future had ended up In 1977 and helped her. That had already happened in Charlotte's world, even though Daniel hadn't yet arrived at the point of his existence where he had met Charlotte. Ben had always been shot by Sayid and lived. Sayid couldn't change anything.
Eloise told Desmond he couldn't change what happened, that it didn't work like that. That things are meant to happen a certain way. The older Eloise knows that she killed her own son. But she didn't try to keep him from being recruited by Widmore and going to the island. It seems like she would have wanted to change that, but it appears she thinks it's futile. But Daniel thinks Jack CAN change what happened and make it like it never was. Daniel is quite the expert on time travel, but I don't think he has a clue about the island the way his mother does. Juliet tells Miles that it worked, but what worked? Does she mean the bomb went off? She "knows" that because it was the last thing she knew, but what does she know about whether it "reset" everything? Spirits don't seem to know everything in this LOST world. They seem to be hovering but not omniscient. What if the Flash Sideways is not a reset? Detonating the bomb didn't make it exactly as if nothing had happened in 2004. Clearly the Flash Sideways doesn't show the same journey to LAX that was unfolding in the Pilot. I sort of think the Flash Sideways characters are more like versions of themselves that are not exactly pre plane crash but are more like products of the experiences they've had on and off the island since the crash. They don't remember, but they recognize each other on an unconscious level. More importantly, their characters seem changed or evolved in ways that are fairly consistent with the lessons they learned on the island. (At least the main characters, the ones that matter, not the Marshall, who died shortly after the crash, as did Arzt.) I think it goes along with the theme that these people on 815, the main characters, were all deeply flawed and needed a second chance on this earth to find their true destiny. Not to change it, but to find it. The purgatory theme only they aren't in an afterlife. Purgatory is on this earth. If there is a complete reset, then their past suffering and work towards redemption is totally meaningless. So I think they are all changed by what they "went" through even though apparently it never happened. Jacob and MIB discuss that it only ends once, but until it ends everything is just progress. I don't know if that fits with Eloise's understanding or not. That statement seems to intimate that what lies in the middle is somewhat fluid. However, the word "progress" is more in line with a continuum that is fixed.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-15-10, 09:15 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Progress" |
weltek,
wonderful summary of the progress.Interesting about Jin and Sun. Yes, Jin seems stuck in the old Jin, telling her to button her blouse. And of course cannot speak English. Don't forget Bernard and Rose are attracting attention as most romantic couple instead of love to do good-natured scolding and bickering. Boone appears to be not so uptight about Shannon. Let's not forget that the night before the flight, he and Shannon "did it." I guess that didn't happen. Oh, and Hurley had overslept and barely got on the plane. He looks very composed and on top of his game in the flash sideways, and instead of reading a comic book he is doing business deals on his cell phone. He is "all growed up."
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-16-10, 09:36 AM (EST)
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23. "Another difference..." |
Another difference in Flash: Sideways noted in "What Kate Does"...I noticed that Ethan and Claire's interchange mirrored their interchange on the Island. Only this time, in 2010, Ethan did not want to stick her with needles and give her drugs, it was Claire that opted for the needlesticks and drugs. Also, Claire had no free will on the Island, whereas in 2010 she did, and it was her choice.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 08:19 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Another difference..." |
LAST EDITED ON 02-17-10 AT 08:19 PM (EST)More differences: 1. Kate is innocent in Flash: Sideways...this was noted as a difference in the review show that has captions....regarding her saying to Claire, "Would you believe me if I told you I were innocent". (WOW!) 2. Competent, business man Hurley. Seems to be embracing his good fortune, cleaning up his act and engaging with it. Still compassionate toward others. 3. Locke: Doesn't believe in destiny or miracles....wow, that's different. 4. I'm reminded that Flash sideways Jack believes that he can work miracles as he told Locke that nothing was irreversible....while Locke does not believe in those miracles now....
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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02-21-10, 07:48 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Another difference..." |
In the flash sideways, we see a world without Jacob. Is it a world without God? Locke, the old man of faith, has nothing to believe in. Jack, the man of science, thinks he is all powerful.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-22-10, 05:36 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Another difference..." |
FP, good catches on the difference with Ethan. And Ben of course. From a master manipulator he has become a civilized man who is a bit particular and fussy. (Not that he's wrong about the etiquette of dumping the old coffee filter!) The scope of his life is much smaller. This is assuming that Ben is not playing a game, and really is no more than what he appears.As for Locke, the fact he is with Helen tells us perhaps that he never pursued his father obsessively, and his father didn't push him out a window. Without Jacob he wouldn't have survived to be in that chair, would he? We haven't seen Sayid's new life yet, but I wonder if he's going to be an ex-torturer or something less extreme. Nadia was the home inspector on Locke's home purchase, so she may be right in that area and Sayid and Locke may intersect. michel, your idea that it's a world without Jacob is interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I mean, we don't know for sure but that may well be true. If it is lacking in miracles of faith, there's also less malevolence in the air. About Jack, he seems to have a private practice now, even though he's associated with the hospital? It seemed before that he was full time engaged with the hospital hierarchy, whereas now he has a practice with hospital privileges, which is not exactly the same, is it? (FlowerPower?) Like before he was Mr. ER ... I am interested to see if he's still married to Sarah. Did anyone notice if he's wearing a ring? Jack seems much less driven. All in all, they are now a group of people who wouldn't necessarily make great TV. Even Kate is not much of a desperado.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-22-10, 06:43 PM (EST)
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27. "Jack sidebar" |
About Jack, he seems to have a private practice now, even though he's associated with the hospital? It seemed before that he was full time engaged with the hospital hierarchy, whereas now he has a practice with hospital privileges, which is not exactly the same, is it? (FlowerPower?) Like before he was Mr. ER ..Well, when Jack came in he took over the patient that his father had been working on, right? The patient ended up dying because Christian had severed her hepatic artery and she bled out. Jack ended up telling the truth to the review board that his father had consumed alcohol prior to operating and that directly led to her demise. He most likely was a senior resident or perhaps even out at that point. Most likely he's finished his residency and is now on staff at St. Sebastian as an Attending Physician, as his father had been. But, Christian was also the "Chief of Staff".
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