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"Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute""
Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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02-16-10, 08:19 AM (EST)
 
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1. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
Yay a new Lost is on tonight! I wasn't sure with the Olympics if they would do a rerun or not.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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02-16-10, 11:27 AM (EST)
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2. "No Breaks!" |
There are no breaks Breezy! I think the week of the finale there will not be an episode because the episode will air the following SUNDAY, May 23. That is the only one!
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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02-16-10, 06:41 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
I lvoed watching that, and glad to get to see it again.
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maroonclowns mom 1102 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 08:44 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
Thanks for the early morning laugh on the stormy day. 
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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02-16-10, 10:03 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
Best.episode.ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Max Headroom 10028 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 08:30 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
Another uneven episode.You could fly an Oceanic Air flight through the plot holes in the LA sequence. C'mon, an accused murderer beats up a federal agent and escapes from custody, yet nobody is looking for her? The guy in the machine shop willingly helps Kate after getting a gun shoved in his face? Claire decides to get back in the taxi with an armed carjacker? And when the cops show up at the hospital, they make a token check and then leave? Sheesh. I'm all for advancing the plot lines, but a little believability is a good thing. OTOH, I thought the island scenes were excellent. The idea of XLocke's "recruiting" is interesting, and the ambiguity of the temple folks is also intriguing. Sawyer continues to shine in all of his scenes, and Jack's conflicted emotions add to the drama. Max's recipe for future success: Wrap up the LA parallel timeline and focus on events on the island. 
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 08:44 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
I think you are an episode behind!
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Max Headroom 10028 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 01:08 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
Nope, watched last night's episode in real time, a rarity for me.
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sharnina 3075 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 03:57 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
But your comments above are about last week's episode.
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 04:38 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
I thought the same thing. But you know - here last week's Lost runs first at 7 and then the new one comes on at 8. Maybe?
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 08:43 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
LAST EDITED ON 02-17-10 AT 09:04 AM (EST)LAST EDITED ON 02-17-10 AT 08:51 AM (EST) LAST EDITED ON 02-17-10 AT 08:45 AM (EST) LAST EDITED ON 02-17-10 AT 08:43 AM (EST) First crazy theory of the season!(for me at least) The "alternate" timeline is not an alternate at all. We are seeing the real timeline and resolutions for these characters. The "incident" is not the bomb at all. What changed is the lack of Jacob interfering in their lives. I think a lot of stuff on this show is distractions. It's all smoke and mirrors, long cons...remember how everyone got all worked up about constants, the numbers, smoke monster, differences in the "alternate timeline", time travel, Geronimo Jackson  , etc? I don't know what the "real" story is but I am sure it is right in front of us. Think "Expose" episode. Loved Helen's shirt "Peace and Karma".
Locke looking into the mirror really showing "smoke and mirrors!"
Loved how Locke's character still has a hard life yet he has support now with Helen and it appears his father as well!
*sniff* Tears came when they buried Locke with the rest of the 815'ers. LOL at Ben and Frank though. I also think we can put to rest the theory that Sayid is MIB as well.
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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 09:36 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
Excellent episode. Much better than last week's. 1. The boy in the woods freaked me out. I am assuming he's Jacob. Why is he so adamant about the rules? 2. FLocke obviously wants off of the island, but why? 3. Loved the connection of the names to the numbers. But there are only six numbers, and now that Locke is dead, only five names. Is FLocke looking to have them all killed? 4. Locke's flash-sideways was well done. I liked he and Helen together again. 5. Poor Richard. I never thought I would see him scared. 6. Ben as a history teacher! (Michael Emerson was on Jimmy Kimmel last night and was super funny. I didn't know he did stage comedy before Lost.) 7. Hurley is so positive in the FS. I like that.  Tribefied
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CTgirl 7073 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 02:07 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
I was struck by all those things and also - Rose Adler works for Hurley! And both FLocke and the real Locke saying "Don't tell me what I can't do!" 
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CTgirl 7073 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 02:15 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Starting to think" |
I really liked this episode. Even though I don’t know where they are going with the story, I get the sense that we are coming closer to completion. This is the first week where I felt like we are actually getting closer to the answers we want.I agree, Moonie, all along Cuse, Lindlof, Emerson etc. have said that you don’t really know who is good and who is bad and tonight really showed that. Was FLocke good or bad taking Sawyer to the cave (I really thought he was going to kill him by the cliff). The smoke monster can be evil, but I also felt sorry for FLocke in the end (great acting by Terry O’Quinn!). He also threw the white rock (Jacob), usually a symbol of goodness, into the ocean. But then again FLocke lied to Sawyer about protecting the island from “nothing.” I also don’t trust the new girl (I forget her name) but she was aligned with Jacob and knew that the temple is the only safe place (she has a lot of information about the island – why?) But so far we’ve seen a different Kate and a happier Hurley and Locke. I like zombie’s idea that this is the life they would’ve led if Jacob hadn’t touched them. If that’s the case, then Jacob is a bad influence. But we also can’t forget Farraday’s comment, “whatever happened, happened.” But in this case it would be, what would happen IF something didn’t happen, and still leave us with a gray area as to who's good and who is bad. And for the record here are the numbers:
4 (Locke) 8 (Reyes) 15 (Ford) 16 (Jarrah) 23 (Shephard) 42 (Kwon)
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-19-10, 09:09 AM (EST)
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38. "the numbers..." |
LAST EDITED ON 02-19-10 AT 09:09 AM (EST)Interesting the numbers: 4 (Locke) 8 (Reyes) 15 (Ford) 16 (Jarrah) 23 (Shephard) 42 (Kwon) I can't help but notice the number sequence. Locke was the "first" chosen one....he was able to hear "help me" in the cabin, and then he was given direction by Christian in the cabin and again under the orchid with the donkey wheel. Clearly, he was able to be directed by "the Island" before anyone else. His number was the first of the others in the sequence. The next number of the sequence is 8 - Reyes. Now, it is Hurley that Jacob is appearing to and directing. I wonder if he will advance through our hero's according to their number sequence...or, perhaps it will not advance so far. Notice XLocke is "recruiting" not Hurley, because he is "safe" behind the white ash, but the next one in the number sequence who is not....James. 
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esquire 1089 desperate attention whore postings
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02-23-10, 01:45 PM (EST)
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47. "what about kate?" |
Is anyone else surprised Kate's name is not here?
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-23-10, 08:32 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: what about kate?" |
Yes, that was my first thought! Considering her importance to the show, I would have expected her. Not only that but there are six numbers and there were the Oceanic 6, so at first I expected the candidates would be the Oceanic 6. That would include Kate, Sun (who may or may not be Kwon), and Aaron, as well as Hurley, Jarrah, and Shepherd, who are assigned numbers. But would exclude Sawyer and Locke.I wonder now if the push to get all the Oceanic 6 back, plus Locke's body, but not Aaron, had to do with getting all the candidates back. Sawyer was the only candidate who never left the island voluntarily. If Jin is Kwon, he would sort of count, but as a second, although his staying behind was not by his choice.
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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 03:12 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
We have the same exact coffee mug that Locke was drinking from in the bathtub.
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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 03:28 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
I bet you yell at the rest of the faculty by the coffee machine too.
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Chez 670 desperate attention whore postings
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02-18-10, 12:38 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
That's so funny! I have that light fixture out in my patio!
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-17-10, 08:00 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
LAST EDITED ON 02-17-10 AT 08:00 PM (EST)THE NUMBERS!!! They are in reference to each of the Oceanic Survivors: Locke, Rayes, Ford, Jarrah, Shepard, Kwon. So these particular survivors are special....not Desmond, not Claire, not Charlie, not Aaron, not Ben....Must be only one of Sun or Jin, as they were only assigned one number? Was this plan in place even before they were born? Or, as they were born....? Clearly, they were significant as assigned to our hero's. XLocke wants to GET OFF THE ISLAND! He told Richard and he told Sawyer that the survivors of Oceanic 815 were "candidates". So, perhaps that is true. Ilana told Ben that XLocke dragged Richard into the jungle because he was "recruiting". He did appear to try and get Richard to come with him, he tried to "recruit" him. It also appears that he has succeeded in "recruiting" Sawyer. Do I believe that XLocke is bad....yes. Why? Because everyone that knows Jacob and Smokey seem to prefer Jacob. Everyone is scared of Smokey. Smokey has killed alot of people and apparently can claim them causing them to go insane. Also, who I perceive to be young Jacob appeared to XLocke and reminded him that he knew the rules, he couldn't kill him....in other words, apparently Smokey wants to kill them all. What I don't understand? Why have all of the Survivors been manipulated by Jacob to come to the Island, as he's manipulated many, many "others" to come to the island.
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-19-10, 04:37 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: Baby Kwon" |
Why not their daughter.I thought that because when XLocke explained to Sawyer...
"42 - KWON" (Locke states that he doesn't know "if it's for Sun or Jin"), and "4-LOCKE," explaining that all of them had been touched by Jacob at some point in their lives before coming to the Island.
We saw Jacob touching both Sun and Jin on their wedding day. This implied that he had manipulated them....we never saw him "manipulate" their daughter. So, to me, it must be either Sun or Jin, or perhaps even both, as they were both touched.
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blacknwhitedog 6528 desperate attention whore postings
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02-18-10, 01:48 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
oh I didn't like this episode at all except for Sawyer- and I wish he would have shot him in the back of the head- that part was greatcan they stop introducing more mysterious characters already (Dogen, the boy in the jungle) and start tying things up already, I'm getting irritated now 
Syren 2007
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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02-19-10, 04:47 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: Free Will" |
I don't know, TriGirl....I still cannot believe that Smokey is the good guy. As michel has noted, I think Smokey represents the devil, and he is using his powers of persausion anyway he can to tempt our hero's. The devil could appear in different shapes and personnas as well. Smokey killed Eko, because Eko had done some very dark deeds. We saw Smokey kill many people starting with the pilot of the plane. Everyone, everyone that seems to know of Jacob and MIB, appears to be deathly afraid of Smokey, while no one seems afraid of Jacob, and all seem to follow him. They all warn our hero's that he wants to kill you all. Jacob was the one that always expounded upon a choice and the option of free will, just as man has free will in this world and can choose. To me, smokey is the devil in John Locke's clothing. Interesting that he is now "stuck" that way. Interesting that when Sawyer asked what would happen if he shot XLocke in the head, and XLocke said, go ahead and find out....perhaps he would just turn into smokey again, as he was when Caesar shot him in the chamber under the statue, and he found the bullet had gone right through him. At this point in the story, I am firmly in the camp that XLocke/Smokey/MIB is the dark force and is deadly and symbolic of evil and the devil.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-22-10, 07:49 AM (EST)
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45. "RE: Free Will" |
LAST EDITED ON 02-22-10 AT 08:19 AM (EST)Speak of the devil - I used to teach Paradise Lost. There's a great deal of discussion about free will. In Milton's poem, the concept of free will has nothing to do really with humans being free to do what they want. The issue is, will Man love, worship, and obey God of Man's free will? God being all-powerful, he can make Man obey. He could find Satan. He could prevent the temptation and fall. He could appear and scare the crap out of Eve as she's raising that apple to her lips. But he doesn't. All he does is tell them the rules in advance, and show them the gifts that are theirs if they obey. What is more, because God sees everything that is predestined, he KNOWS they will Fall. There is no question that Eve and Adam will resist breaking the prohibition and will seek to gain higher knowledge than they have been allotted, and that God will have to drive them out of Eden, and so forth. Ultimately, free will turns out to be nothing other than making decisions and acting without foreknowledge but in a universe where there is a power that knows what is predestined. Free will does not change how it all evolves, or how it ends, because the results of free will are predictable - by an omniscient being. God wants Man to obey, love and worship him willingly, without coercion, because coerced obedience is not satisfying, but at the same time people who read the story can't help but get irritated with the God character because he doesn't stop the Fall. He sends a warning messenger, but the messenger doesn't stop anything either. Rather he explains the danger and warns of the consequences. You might say that God involves Man in a very long con. God has a plan. After Man has suffered for many generations, God's Son will go down and redeem everyone, and that will make up for everything, but not quite, will it, because a) there will have been suffering, plague, pestilence, famine, war, etc., and b) God's Son has to make a tremendous sacrifice. So this raises some difficult questions that could relate to LOST. If you can see things going down a bad road, why not change it? God created human beings, so why did he create them so weak that they would stray and fall? Is God sadistic? Cruel? Supposedly not. The process of failure, repentance, and redemption ultimately makes for a richer existence, creation, than simply creating a perfect world that is perfect because none of God's creations are able to rebel or disobey. Something to think about. Some more concepts. In the Greek world of Gods, there was Fate, but not Destiny. Man was just a toy of the gods. Fate was inescapable. That was Greek tragedy. You could be good and still suffer a bad Fate. But then came the concept of Providence, the concept that a higher Power guides you to a destiny. In a world of Fate, your ship crashes on a desert island. That's your Fate. The End, as Desmond would say. But in-between getting smacked around by Fate, you make choices and decisions and pursue your desires. In a world of Providence and destiny, you crash on that island for a reason, and the hand of Providence silently guides you to make the right decisions, if you pray for guidance, and then you fulfill your purpose. You may have to make sacrifices. You have to put aside your desires in deference to the higher purpose. But what is Providence? Is it a force working to save you or a force pushing you in a direction for some "higher good"? The man of Faith believes in Providence. Is that the part Jacob plays? Is it a long con? One reason I'm bringing up this idea of Providence, is that the idea really took hold around the 2nd and 3rd centuries in Egypt, in the mystery religions, the cults of Isis. And the early Christians were in Egypt as well, Coptics, Gnostics, and other sects, and there was a lot of cross-fertilization. Just something I've been thinking about since they started with the Egyptian symbolism. The Coptic Cross, or Egyptian cross, is a derivative of the ankh, the symbol that was in Charlie's guitar case. Not that I think Damon and Carlton are really into the ancient mysteries.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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02-23-10, 07:30 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Free Will" |
"What is more, because God sees everything that is predestined, he KNOWS they will Fall"Farady should have said: "What will happen, happened." "You might say that God involves Man in a very long con." That is what MIB is saying: There's nothing to save. And, if we go by the producers' words that we may not know who is really good, really evil, it seems that the story will play with this idea. Consider that the characters became Losties when they reached Jacob's island, that they seem happier in a world without Jacob and the message may not please some. And, if there are still doubters as to which one is which, XLocke said that he would have told Richard why he was asking him to do things, he would have given him knowledge.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-23-10, 10:04 PM (EST)
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52. "RE: Free Will" |
michel,
that is such an excellent point! Satan (in Paradise Lost) encourages Eve to disobey and seek knowledge, which God has seen fit to withhold from her, and yes that is what we saw the MIB tell Sawyer, that Jacob keeps his chosen ones in ignorance while playing God with their lives.I'm sure not everyone here reading this forum has waded through Milton and enjoyed it, but if you're wondering why I'm babbling about it, it is relevant as one of the great debates on the importance of free will and whether knowledge is worth suffering for. The figure of Satan, or Lucifer (light-bearer) has a sort of counterpart or precedent in Greek mythology, IMHO, and that is Prometheus, who carried on a great feud with the chief God Zeus, was a trickster figure, stole fire and brought it to mankind, and taught men to use tools. In other words he brought knowledge and understanding. Zeus sentenced him to eternal torment by chaining him to a rock. He was bound, which appears to be the fate of Smokie. It might be worth reviewing the stories about Prometheus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-22-10, 08:36 AM (EST)
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46. "RE: Cultural \ Historical References" |
Re Jacob's Ladder:Folks may or may not recall that in "The Long Con" Locke was looking through "Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" aka "The Incident at Owl Creek Bridge" by Ambrose Bierce. This story received a modern adaptation in the movie "Jacob's ladder" with Tim Robbins. Actually it has been borrowed from in quite a few later works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Occurrence_at_Owl_Creek_Bridge In the original story, a whole sequence of experience takes place and appears to be real but at the end you find out it was just what flashed through the man's mind as he was hung in that split second that he was dropping before the rope broke his neck. In the Robbins movie, most of the experiences turn out to be his dying moments. I know that Darlton went on record saying that Purgatory is not the answer, and the Losties are not dead. They also promised that they're not in a snowglobe. But they have put an awful lot of Easter Eggs out pointing to Owl Creek and Jacob's Ladder, named after the ladder by which you ascend into Heaven. (Jacob had that vision as he was running from his brother Esau). They made a huge deal about The Third Policeman, which is another book that takes the theme of Owl Creek, giving it an Irish twist. And Gary Troup's name is on that wall twice. (Gary Troup = Purgatory). So the Losties aren't dead, but is it possible that some of their experiences are taking place in a "flash" moment that is between life and death? We have an episode called Flashes Before Your Eyes, we have Flash Backs, Forwards, and Sideways. Here's a line from the Third Policeman that might be worth thinking about as well: "Joe had been explaining things in the meantime. He said it was again the beginning of the unfinished, the re-discovery of the familiar, the re-experience of the already suffered, the fresh forgetting of the unremembered. Hell goes round and round. In shape it is circular and by nature it is interminable, repetitive and very nearly unbearable" In Third Policeman, the character finds out he is dead and in hell, and that hell is a loop, and that is the ultimate torture, to go round and round having the same experiences, but not quite remembering that you've done it before.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-23-10, 09:45 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Cultural \ Historical References" |
Thanks CT!
I bought the full length re-release of The Stand and started it. Didn't make it through more than two chapters. I think perhaps buying the original shorter version would be the way to get through. Mine is the "director's cut" and is 1135 pages long! If I had a hardback copy it would be easier than a short squat paperback, is my excuse.
I'm available for any questions on The Third Policeman or Bad Twin, lol.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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02-24-10, 00:01 AM (EST)
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53. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.04: "The Substitute"" |
Thanks Drones, all stuff I am only starting to think about. I've watched most of LOST without thinking too hard about the endgame, more enjoying the journey.Yes, it seems like each season, for all its tangents, has a simple story line to cover (like the entire Season 4 dealing with the freighter arrival and the escape), and this season will be the story of the progress to selecting the final Candidate and the resolution for everyone else. I would differ by saying Locke is not so much satisfied as resigned. He accepts his position but acknowledges that it could be better, But he is no longer the guy who will risk everything to strive for his fulfillment on all levels. So he settles for a more tranquil but also more mundane existence. I do not see the LA X life as better, so far. It is less full of strife but not nearly as interesting. Hugo is a successful businessman, but how many of those are there in the world? Wasn't the other Hugo funnier and more enduring, with all his fears? I think so. Don't know much about the others yet. I believe the love triangle between Jack, Sawyer, Kate will go to the end, even though right now Sawyer is having none of it. I don't care about it, but a zillion fans do, and so do the writers, so it's got to figure in the ending. I don't really see Sayid as THE candidate. For me there are two logical candidates among the original Losties on the wall. One is Sawyer, because other than Locke, he is the one who didn't want to go back to the life he left. He made a life for himself on the island. Right now he hates the island because Juliet died. The other is Jack. He's the one who accepted responsibility that he shouldn't have left and made everyone come back. Plus Jack loves to save things. However, Jack has never been willing to believe that the island is an entity, unlike Locke. Right now Jack is learning that miracles really do happen there. I have heard people propose that Frank Lapidus would be Jacob and it turns out he wasn't. Some think he could be the candidate because Iliana and Bram wondered if he was a candidate. There are a lot of theories about Frank. His middle initial is J. and his surname is in Latin form (Alpert's language), and means rock or stone. Also a Roman general (Lepidus) and one of the Ajira people was Caesar. There is a theory on Lostpedia that when the smoke monster saw Seth Norris was piloting instead of Frank, that's why he got angry and killed Seth. We did not see Frank's name on the wall, but he is wandering around ever since the beginning of Season 4 and is now on his way to the Temple. He was hired by Widmark for the freighter team, and he was put in as pilot on Ajira for some reason. So we shall see.
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p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
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Just another play on words?
You've been hotpocketed!
DRONES
