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"How/Why Did Kris Win?"
geekboy 1778 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-22-09, 11:22 AM (EST)
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"How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
Don't get me wrong, i'm quite happy that Kris pulled it off, but there has been so much discussion about "the upset", "Shocking AI Final", etc, that it thought it would be fun and informative for all of us to get together and hash out all the theories as to WHY he won, over the so-called favorite, Adam Lambert.I'll start it off with an idea i had... Could Kris' win have been helped because the judges/producers were so blatently hoping/pushing for Adam to win? Could the 'voter backlash' againt the overly obvious bias this year helped Kis win? beekboy "I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-22-09, 11:35 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
I think two main reasons, and for sake of argument I'm assuming two equally talented folks here even if they are quite different in style.1. Over hyping Adam. Sure it may get them on the tour or into the last half of the season but there will be push back against the hype at some point. In addition to the push back excessive certainty about the winner by the judges can make the fans more complacent. My favorite can't lose doesn't tend to make people vote, my favorite might lose will motivate people to vote. 2. Who gets the voters as each person leaves. Sure some people stop voting but a lot of people just move on to the next favorite. A polarizing performer (the love 'em or hate 'em) isn't likely to keep picking up votes all the way to the end. At some point they have all the people that like them. Some one that is more middle of the road or inoffensive is more likely to get the votes of those that will keep voting until the end but lost their favorite along the way. I'll vote for the one I'm kind of meh on over the one I can't stand if I have to make a choice. I also think there may also be a story arc reason for Kris's appeal. Small town kid who has to work and struggle to get better each week just to make it. vs The polished performer who may do something new each week but didn't really get better as there wasn't really anything left to work on. Idol built the mythos that they pluck regular people out of regular life and catapult them to super-stardom. Truth is you rarely find someone that isn't doing something musical with their life that makes it to the voting rounds, and ever rarer to get them on the tour. Whether it is playing in a bar band, or running the church music program most of the time people who can perform on stage have been doing it for awhile. Especially if they can perform under high stress situation.
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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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05-22-09, 12:13 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
I think you meant that tongue in cheek, but VFTW couldn't get Amanda O into the top ten to make the tour last season. So how much clout do they really have?
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-22-09, 12:47 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-22-09 AT 01:17 PM (EST)Sometimes even a 1% boost is not going to be enough. After all they do tend to vote for the people no one else wants to see stick around. I do think sometimes, depending on circumstance, they can be the difference in which week someone leaves. I think Amanda was unlikely to make the tour no matter what and IMO lasted a week longer than she probably would have without them. I kinda felt sorry for her. I think after week one of the semis she wanted out of there, but her fans wouldn't let her go. ETA: Basically I see it this way, when there is a reason for America to rally behind someone (either the bad was entertainingly bad, or they just want to keep someone in to spite Simon, etc.) I think the extra votes from VFTW probably helps to reinforce that and may make the difference in any given week. VFTW will tend to stick with that person even if the next week they don't really give America a reason to keep them around. They usually don't choose anyone with long term staying power if they can help it. So you can't expect an early pick to make it to the finals or win. Even though Amanda didn't make the tour, Megan did. So sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't. Heck people that shouldn't have stayed did before VFTW was founded. That was part of the reason they got going. I think they may make it happen a little more often than it would organically. Mostly they are just having fun for a rather twisted value of fun. I don't think they take themselves or their "mission" all that seriously.
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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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05-22-09, 12:30 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
ITA that they totally overpimped Adam. Danny, too. So, people became really invested in Danny. How different would things have been if the F3 were Adam/Allison/Kris? Another thing the show did was restrict per usual the songs at F3 and F2. If they had allowed more contestants' choices, Adam would have had more of an opportunity to "make a moment". As it was, he peaked earlier around Mad World and Born to be Wild. Those were stand outs. After that it seemed like more of the same. I think Adam should have come out and done an a capella song ala Bo Bice at F3 season 5, In A Dream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmeS3v_w4Kk Instead, he only got one chance in F3 and F2 to do one new song of his choosing. He's been quoted saying U2's One was not his thing. So when he had a chance he did a rock song, Cryin', to show what he wanted to be post idol. But it was more of what we had seen. It was not a grabber imo, one that played over and over in your head the way Mad World and Born to be Wild did. Kris's performance of Heartless stood out because earlier in the season Kanye had performed it as a rap song. He out-Kanyed Kanye! I've read many comments on other boards that Adam seemed like he screamed a lot. He did put a lot of yowls in the last few songs he sang. He has the chops to do a capella. I think it would have made an AI moment, would have made a difference.
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geekboy 1778 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-22-09, 12:48 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
In a way, i agree with you. Adam could have chosen somehting other than 'Cryin' and had a moment...like Kris did. I think the fact that he didn't choose more of a "moment" song when given the chance hurt him.I think Kris' choice and performance of "Heartless" was a true game-changer for the final three. I compare it to Bo's acapella rendition of "In A Dream". Simon said repeatedly that Adam was fearless. I think doing "Heartless" with just an acoustic guitar and a mic was Kris showing he was fearless. It was risky, it was a well-known current song that he chose to mix up completely. If that isn't fearless, what is? Yes, there is a votes from the voted off people, there is the pimping, there is a story arc, but in the end i think - go figure - the actual vocals and performances count. What a concept. Again, I think "Heartless" helped Kris more than we give it credit for. geekboy "I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell
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geekboy 1778 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-22-09, 01:31 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
I agree totally, but...The only chance Idol contestants have to make their own 'moment' is on the rare occasion of having a 'contestants choice' song, which unfortunately is becoming more rare year after year. So, in the final three they get that chance. Kris' brings out his version of "Heartless" which was a brilliant choice/arrangement and i contend helped him win in a BIG way. Adam brings out "Cryin" which really does nothing for him. Adam had an equal chance of having a "moment". I really expected him to pull out something like Bowie's "Ziggy Stardust" or a performance-ready Queen song like "These Are The Days Of Our Lives"...but he does a pretty conventional Aerosmith song. I think it had a large part in him coming in 2nd. geekboy "I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell
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grit 4866 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Stuff Magazine Centerfold"
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05-22-09, 06:00 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
The one thing that everyone keeps forgetting to mention in this "How/Why Did Kris Win?" conversation is this: Kris is a really talented musician. Okay, he doesn't have the vocal power that Adam has, but he still has a very good voice. Add that to the fact that he plays both piano and guitar really well AND he's a very talented musical arranger. He's a very well-rounded musician. I agree with all the other reasons why Adam didn't win - backlash over judges pimping, Kris scooping up the Danny votes, and, yeah, the idiots who wouldn't vote for Adam because of who he is. Does it matter? No. Adam is a great singer and got a ton of exposure on AI and will have a great career. Maybe, just maybe, the judges have finally learned their lesson about over-pimpage. Sure, and maybe the tooth fairy is real...
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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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05-22-09, 06:10 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-22-09 AT 06:13 PM (EST)Nicely said. BTW, Kris's "No Boundaries" hit no. 1 on itunes. In fact he has three in the top 10--#1, #4 (Heartless) and #10 (Ain't No Sunshine). Adam has one song in the top ten, "Mad World", coming in at #6. David Cook is number 7 with "Permanent". Glee's cast is number 2 with "Don't Stop Beleiving". Black Eyed Peas and Katy Perry are also in the top ten. That leaves just two spots for non AI/Fox related songs that were performed on their shows. Danny has one solo in the top 100: "You Are So Beautiful" is number no 64; his duet with Kris is no. 94.
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-27-09, 02:40 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Evidently...." |
LAST EDITED ON 05-27-09 AT 02:46 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON 05-27-09 AT 02:45 PM (EST) I swear I remember them doing that for Kellie Pickler here. I think they do it for any Idol contestant that has a home town that does the whole town comes out for a party thing. San Diego County has more people in it than all of Arkansas. Could they really trump the whole rest of the country with a couple of gatherings? ETA numbers 2008 estimates San Diego County--3,001,072 Arkansas--2,855,390 ETA more: The power texting instructions were posted all over the web. You didn't need an ATT representative to teach you. If Adam's fans wanted to they could use the same trick to power text.
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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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05-28-09, 12:14 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Evidently...." |
LAST EDITED ON 05-28-09 AT 01:03 PM (EST)This has been so debunked. The Hollywood Reporter ran the numbers and they were a drop in the bucket of 100 million votes. Look for the clip of Kris on the Jimmy Fallon show. He picks up his guitar and performs Heartless. No pyrotechnics, no smoke, no costume...just great vocals. ETA link: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9f1sf_kris-jim_music
He starts singing around 7:50 Love it!
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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-27-09, 03:26 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-27-09 AT 03:28 PM (EST)A lot of people love and root for the underdog in a competition and in this case, we had a happy ending. Kris had a gradual build throughout the season while Adam blazed early and tried to hold on to it. And Kris just simply appealed to a larger audience (ETA: who actually watches a show like this and votes).
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mhdallas 165 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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05-28-09, 12:33 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
Frankly, I think they both won. Kris may have won the title, but Adam seems to have won even more. I think that even the possibility of him singing with Queen (something that's widely rumored) is far more of a victory than an AI title, especially for those of us who prefer our music a little less cheesy than what AI typically puts out. The fact that the media's still all over him, while the only things I've seen about Kris are how AT&T might've helped him win,is a further indication that Adam is the real star here, regardless of who won the 'title'. No disrespect to Kris, who is a sweet guy and should do relatively okay with his fan base, but when it comes to a long-term star such as Kelly or Carrie, then my money's still on Adam. (And if he does end up singing with Queen, then Kris will really be left in the shadows, so to speak. After all, a soft pop album can hardly compare to fronting a legendary rock band!)
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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
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05-28-09, 01:10 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?" |
IIRC, you weren't much interested in Kris during the show.The AT&T story is just to get more press for the show and it keeps Adam's name in the press, too. Controversy sells, even if it's a tempest in a teapot. The runner up routinely gets interviews the week after the show. The Hollywood Reporter debunked the story--see MJsbigblog for details. BTW, Kris is outselling Adam on the Billboard charts. There's a market for soft pop. If Adam sings with Queen in a guest appearance (which is what is being discussed, not fronting Queen on a regular basis), that will be great for Adam. I disagree that it would leave Kris in the shadows. Are you going to see Adam on the AI tour?
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