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"Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan"
garyc 118 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
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05-14-12, 07:01 AM (EST)
 
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"Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-14-12 AT 07:29 AM (EST)
Thought Kim's final TC speech might have been perfect. Didn't ramble on but said what she needed to say: owning up to the fact that it was a game, that she felt bad about voting out people, but that anytime she did she thought of how she would use the money to help people who had been there for her her entire life. Kim is really good at this game.
Really like how Chelsea came across as a person almost the entire season. Seems a genuinely nice person.
Was surprised when Christina asked her why she hated people. Yet Kim was voted most trustworthy. Kim really is good at this. Alicia and Troyzan both came across as self-deluded; and in Troyzan's case petty as well. As did Coulton. All three of them seemed to think more of their strategy than they deserved. Self-delusion might have been the theme for this season. Throw in Christina's delusions that she was actually playing the game and deserved to be in the final three.
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-14-12, 03:00 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Right, and just about the only other times she really said much on the island (other than to Jay) was to fight with Tarzan about some issue (implants, soiled underwear, etc.) or to say she wanted Kat out. She had several confrontations throughout her time on the island that at first glance appeared to be relatively minor (i.e. the squabble with Matt over the chickens and later the quibbling over the fire early in the game) but when you add it all up compared to how many times she was shown gabbing in a pleasant social setting, it's easy to understand now.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-14-12, 06:31 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
"And Troyzan completely discredited his claim that people weren't playing to win since his vote didn't go to the one person that did play to win, that did make big moves." Troyzan's claim was people "playing in fear" and being more concerned about "living for another day" as opposed to the PRIMARY objective to win. He did or said nothing to discredit that claim. Kim's answer to Troy threw his vote away (not that it mattered because she had it in the bag with or without Troy's vote.) Playing to win means you also need to answer questions in the manner the voter(s) want to hear at FTC. Had Kim fed Troy's ego and answered Troy something to the effect of... "The moment I decided I wanted you out was when I realized you were a power player and had this burning desire to win. Actually if you were sitting next to me now, I probably don't win. I had to take out my toughest competition." Troy probably walks away with his head five feet wide and votes Kim. But answering her big move was taking out Jonas was not the right answer to win Troy's vote.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-14-12, 07:04 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Kim didn't make any big moves.She didn't need to. The best pool players don't need to make great shots. They plan ahead to avoid that. Of course, bad luck/breaks can upset that, but Kim didn't get any bad breaks to overcome, so she never had to do anything but stick with the plan. The vote to get Jonas was perhaps the key vote in the game, but it was also Chelsea's idea and was universally agreed to. Kim's best moment was actually when she helped convince Alicia to get rid of Tarzan. That was the last time Kim was in any danger. After that, it was game set match. Chelsea was right that the move to get rid of Kat was her best moment. She should have pushed it harder at FTC. In that insistence, Kim actually benefitted despite herself. She didn't want Kat gone. She was okay with booting Sabrina. If Alicia doesn't idiotically change her mind, then Sabrina goes home. At F5, Alicia could have very easily decided to take Kat and Christina to the end and get rid of Kim. Yeah, Kim won the last two ICs, but she might have lost one if Kat was still in the mix.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-14-12, 10:30 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Troy's votes for Kim during the game were logical and had nothing to do with any personal vendetta. I believe he probably voted for Sabrina in the end as a final act of defiance. Childish? Sort of. Ironic when you consider that no one slammed him harder during his tantrums than Sabrina. Maybe he respected that. I would. Anyway, it is bordering on hypocrisy for michel to criticize his vote. Isn't the jury always right? Then by extension he must have been "right" to vote for Sabrina.
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-14-12, 11:14 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
I'm with michel here, Iltarion.Troy:
- made a big deal about players who weren't trying or willing to make any moves in the game. Sabrina didn't do much other than to ride Kim's coattails (which she admitted).
- said "It isn't Survivor if you aren't lying". Kim did what he would have done and she owned up to her actions. Basically, Kim played the game to the fullest, she lied and she made moves, she won challenges -- exactly what Troy did and tried to do earlier in the game. If he's going to be bitter about all that, then that tells you exactly what kind of a small person he really is. Who he votes for is completely his prerogative and if he wanted to vote for Sabrina just because he liked her, that's fine. But he's full of crap because he voted against the person who did exactly the things he did while voting for someone who did NOT do what he wanted to see from the contestants despite whining openly about what he wanted to see! It doesn't get any plainer than that - Troy has rolled-up pieces of baloney sticking out from all parts of his body and his reasoning for the vote is garbage.
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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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05-15-12, 09:48 AM (EST)
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23. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
I think a comparison between Troyzan and Estee's character from her Survivor fanfic, Gardner, might explain the problem with Troyzan's attitude.Gardner was pretty sure he'd win if Alex (who had won the final Immunity Challenge when it was just a Final 2) took him to the jury instead of Connie, Alex's mortal enemy (and a total witch, to boot). But Alex figured that she'd have a better chance of winning if she took Connie than if she took Gardner (as it turned out, she still might have won if she took Gardner, but that's another story). Gardner was mad as heck when Alex voted him out -- but he voted for her at the final Tribal Council, because he was able to put his anger aside and realize that Alex had played a better strategic game than Connie. Troyzan could not do so. It's not the anger at being duped by Kim that was his problem, it was allowing his anger to control his vote -- and being enough of a fan of Survivor to realize that it wasn't Survivor unless you were lying! If Troyzan had been clueless about the game, then I could just shrug off his inability to control his anger. But he wasn't. 
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-15-12, 07:02 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
A whole lot of speculation, assumptions and opinions on what Troy was looking for. The one thing I think we all can agree on...only Troy knows for sure.It's a REAL shame Jeff didn't put Troy on the spot and ask him what the correct answer would have been to earn his vote. Instead Production (Jeff) felt that time would be better spent trying to convince everyone that Colton is not a racist and is a decent human being (HaHa) and try to garnish some sympathy for him because not everyone from his family accepts his sexual preference (Yadda-Yadda-Yadda; Blah, Blah, Blah...) Jurors Talk, Jurors compare notes; Jurors deliberate. This Jury is probably no different. What else is there to do on the Ponderosa for all those days? That being said, I'm sure it was a forgone conclusion to everyone on the Jury that Kim would get the necessary votes whether the final tally was 9-0, 8-1, or 7-2. It's also my opinion that Troy, given that fact and realizing his vote wouldn't make a difference in the end, wanted to use the open forum to get his horn tooted. As the DAW he is, he wanted to hear his name from Kim that HE was the toughest competition and a favorite to win at FTC. Instead she mentions Jonas' name, not Troy's, in her answer; so on the basis of that it was the "incorrect" answer in Troy's mind. I'll even go so far to say Kim's answer to Leif question was even more "incorrect" to secure his vote. Leif wanted to know why he was voted out. Kim's answer could have been, "I didn't want YOU out; I wanted my toughest competition (Troy) out. But he had immunity. So to answer your question why I voted you out...because Troy won the IC." Instead she tells Leif, "I could never really trust you."
WOW...talk about a surefire way of getting someone to NOT vote for you. But Kim answered how she wanted and won regardless. Good for her. Although Kim could have addressed Troy and Leif's questions differently, it does not diminsh from the solid game she played this season earning a well-deserved victory.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-15-12, 10:54 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
I totally agree with you that way too much time was wasted on that piece of garbage.Where I don't agree is in your apology of Troyzan. If he did need his ego stroked, needed to hear his name, then he was petty. Period, BTW, the correct answer was having Kat in her back pocket. Troyzan's game was demolished because Kat didn't vote with him against Christina. Eliminating Jonas was huge from Kim's POV because she already knew she had Kat. From Troy's POV, he mistakenly thought he still had a shot after Jonas left so that's why he didn't think it was the "correct" answer. It was correct for Kim, not for him. As for Leif, Kim's honesty should have been appreciated. She gave him an answer that he could use. Many players called him wishy-washy so, if he is like that in real life, maybe he can learn from it. He knew that Troyzan was the target so telling him he was voted out because Troy was immune was kinda pointless. Even if Leif doesn't use the lesson in his life, he at least knows now exactly why he was voted out. I know from experience that you need that closure.
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-16-12, 01:42 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Good ol' Grog! He was the original Grog, not Greg/Tarzan...
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-17-12, 05:25 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
I'm not "apologizing" for Troy. I agree his attitude was "petty;" actually Iltarion used the best adjective..."childish." I suppose when you're 50+ years old and want to play this game, you've got to have some immaturity in you.My point of contention is how and why he used his vote does not discredit his claim most castaways played this game in fear of not getting to the next day. And this fear completely absorbed their desire to WIN the game and/or give themselves the best chance to WIN. From my observation, I didn't think any of the three finalists played the game in fear so any name he wrote down would not "discredit his claim." You say, "Kim's honesty should have been appreciated." Oh really? Sure, why not...considering the fact she had been SOOOOOO honest up to that point. LOL. Surely you say this in jest. I guess it's the same "honesty" she exhibited when telling Jeff she really didn't know she had it won. PLEEEEEEASE!!!!!!!!!! Listen, Kim deserves props for a well-played solid game, but let's not play the "honesty" or "integrity" card here. Hey, I still luv ya man...but you're a riot!!!
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-17-12, 06:03 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Kim was right on when she answered Troy's question. Booting Jonas was the key to ruining his game. Every boot after that was utterly predictable, minus Kat. Troy wanted a different answer. Whatever. Kim was also honest when answering Leif, but it was a bad answer. Leif being "wishy-washy" might explain why he was in the predicament he was in, but it had nothing to do with his boot at that particular time. The bottom line was that Troy had immunity and a man was going home. End of story. TMI. Why tell someone in the jury that you didn't trust them when you don't have to? Stick to the most obvious answers. Frankly, Kim didn't have the best FTC. She probably sweeps the vote if she does. However, that diminishes her season not one iota. I have always said the goal is to get the majority of votes, not ALL of them.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-17-12, 10:05 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
I wholeheartedly agree a better FTC from Kim makes her sweep the votes...and I also agree it doesn't matter in the end. So she won by a 7-2 vote instead of 9-0. Big Whoop!Booting Jonas was a turning point in the game to pick off the men. No question about that. But I honestly feel Troy was asking Kim what move was SHE initially responsible for in demolishing Troy's chances. I stated this immediately after the Jonas boot episode and I'm sticking to my guns in saying TARZAN was the one initially responsible for Jonas' boot. After their blowup, any moron knew Tarzan was writing Jonas' name down at that TC. That's all the women needed...that SEVENTH vote. Granted Kim took advantage of this great fortune and turned it into a 10-2 tally, but just as I said above, "Big Whoop." Whether it was 7-5 or 10-2...Jonas was gone thanks mostly to Tarzan.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-17-12, 09:42 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Kim, Chelsea, and Sabrina formed an alliance on Day One and took it to the end. What's not to appreciate about that? Even Troy could appreciate that gameplay. Although I personally do not like coattail riding, it's not the same thing as playing in FEAR. I'm sure Chelsea and Sabrina had moments when they felt vulnerable. Hey, we even heard Kim getting nervous at a point in the season. But I do not equate that with "playing in fear." Christina played in fear to just make it another day...So did Jay...So did Michael...So did Jonas...So did Alicia...So did Tarzan. Sorry, but I'm not seeing Chelsea and Sabrina "playing in fear." They played to take their alliance to the end...and their mission was accomplished. Chelsea was the warmer of the two??? She lied right along with the rest of them. Her blowup with Tarzan didn't leave me with that "warm" and fuzzy feeling. Oh, and saying Leif should "SHUT THE F--- UP" was clearly edited to make Chelsea look "warm." *snort*
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-17-12, 11:12 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-17-12 AT 11:16 PM (EST)Sabrina and Chelsea rode coattails in the sense that they let Kim take the blame for the boots. I can agree with that. Ironically, michel has it backwards. He seems to be suggesting that our perception of Chelsea being "warm" doesn't match the reality of what the other players said. According to what people are saying after the fact, the truth is that the perception the players had of Chelsea didn't match the reality of what was shown on TV. Chelsea really did feel bad about booting Troy and Jay. Her difficulty with it even frustrated her own alliance, which we were shown. Except that Troy and Jay never saw that for themselves. Chelsea said it was her biggest mistake in the game, and players have told her after watching the show that if they would have known she was that way, they might have voted for her. I said during those weeks that those bouts of morality could have won her votes. According to what Chelsea has said, I was right. Unfortunately for her, she never communicated that. It took watching the show for the guys to know she felt that way. She preached the whole game about people being "deserving." She basically stood up at FTC and said Kim was more deserving. SHE was not hypocritical. >
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-14-12, 04:21 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
The idea came up between Sabrina, Chelsea, Christina and Tarzan while Kat, Kim and Alicia were away at reward plotting against Sabrina, it was really just disgruntled talk and Kim swayed Chelsea towards a Sabrina boot later. Alicia flipping on Kat, Chelsea was thinking along the same lines and suddenly Alicia was on board.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-14-12, 06:12 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-14-12 AT 10:25 PM (EST)Actually, michel, we did see it a couple times. Chelsea tried to contain herself but lost control of her emotions several times. She screwed the men out of the chickens when she had a chance to win points from them. She told Leif to "shut the eff up" when he was celebrating after a challenge win. She got after Troyzan pretty good when he celebrated his wins. She got after Kat when she didn't pick Tarzan or Christina to go on reward, and she complained a couple times about Christina not deserving to be there. It is no surprise that some of that got back to Christina, prompting her to ask her question. Chelsea may have wanted/needed to put her emotions away, but she failed several times. As I defended these actions during the season, I would do so now. They may have killed her social game, which killed her chance of winning, but they also made her an entertaining player to watch. The season needed that because Kim was the Ivan Lendl of Survivor. All strategy and no play makes Kim a very dull girl. As I maintained throughout my insistence that Kim, Chelsea, and Sabrina would be the F3, without the aid of Spoilers I might add, I believe Kim stuck with that F3 for mainly 2 reasons: 1) she wanted to be loyal to at least one alliance so no one could say she lied to everyone, a fairly normal tactic, and 2) she knew Chelsea and Sabrina would take her to the Finals if she didn't win the FIC. THAT was her biggest hurdle. Ironically, I believe Kim saved her alliance mates by winning those ICs, and not herself. She would have been simply going to the Finals with different people if she had not won the ICs.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-14-12, 10:22 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
The two people Chelsea was closest to were both sitting in the Finals. Chelsea is not as duplicitous as Kim. That is not a surprise to me because Chelsea definitely has a strong manly side to her. Men are not as good at duplicity as women, though there are some notable exceptions. As characteristic of the male brain, Chelsea's thinking is more two dimensional. Other posters are correct that we never saw Chelsea bond with anyone but Kim. In fact, even though Sabrina was loyal to her and vice-versa, we even heard Sabrina have some hard words for Chelsea. In a way, Kim destroyed Chelsea's game by winning 4 ICs. Kim and Chelsea both had the Salani alliance with Troy and Jay. They both agreed to vote out Jonas, and it was Chelsea's idea to vote out Kat. If you forget social game, where Kim crushed Chelsea, and look at strategy alone, the only thing separating them was Kim's "seed" to get rid of Tarzan and defang Alicia. If Chelsea wins the majority of the ICs and protects Kim, then she can make the case that she was just as important to the alliance making F3 as Kim. That was the chance that I THOUGHT she had. As it turned out, Kim dominated the ICs and protected Chelsea, which essentially ruined Chelsea's case. Lastly, it might be a minor point here since Kim dominated and deserved to win, but I believe that the natural competitiveness of women would automatically put Chelsea at a disadvantage in a vote. Think about it: some women vote for one of three women to win a million dollars. Do you think the prettiest woman would get the vote?? No way. So, no surprise Chelsea didn't get any of the women's votes. It is her own sad fault, and a credit to Kim and Sabrina, that she didn't get any of the men's, however. >
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-14-12, 11:07 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
LAST EDITED ON 05-14-12 AT 11:07 PM (EST)So many things wrong here
"Men are not as good at duplicity as women
You never played Survivor against me! "we never saw Chelsea bond with anyone but Kim." I believe it is because she was afraid that she couldn't break the bonds that she made, making me question what she thought she was getting into playing Survivor. "the only thing separating them was Kim's "seed" to get rid of Tarzan and defang Alicia." And knowing to keep Kat over Nina in episode 2. And making the alliance with Jay and Troy, something Chelsea wouldn't have been able to do. And making Troy want to eliminate Mike. And deciding to keep Chelsea over Alicia. Kim played the game, Chelsea, as Kim said to the guys, wasn't strategic at all. "Do you think the prettiest woman would get the vote??" After Aruba reminded me of Heidi, now you remind me of Jenna! Beauty as a handicap! Anyway, that is only three votes, 6 remained of which Chelsea got ZERO. It is safe to assume the women voted for the same reason as the guys.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-15-12, 00:45 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
I had worked in call centers for years. They are about 80% women. Men don't last long. Men typically can't handle the duplicity required. Women excel at it. Now that is the general rule, but it doesn't apply to everyone. Some women (Chelsea) have a real hard time with it, and some men are very good at it. It would not surprise me if michel had a knack for it. There is obviously a strong feminine side there. I have a strong one as well, though my macho side might be more ostentatious here. It's all good. It means I'm decent at multi-tasking, like I can watch softcore and write this at the same time. Anyway, Chelsea and Kim both agreed to keep Kat over Nina. They also both had an alliance with Troy and Jay. Was Kim on the beach when Jay pitched the idea? Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that Jay wanted both of them in his F3. Kim's "seed" with Troy to boot Mike was completely irrelevant. EVERYONE on both tribes wanted Mike gone. The edit tried to make that a big deal. It wasn't. Troy wanted to boot Mike from Day 1. Yeah, Kim protected Chelsea. Was that strategic or emotional? Can't say for sure. The two were very close. One certainly would have to believe that Christina would have been less likely to get votes. Yes, Kim said Chelsea wasn't strategic, but that was to Jay. We heard Kim tell people what they wanted to hear plenty of times. Chelsea pitched the Leif vote and strategically why that was the right move. She also had the wiser strategy in supporting the Kat boot, when Kim didn't. So, in reality, Kim was lying there. Chelsea's game wasn't BASED on strategy like Kim's was, but there certainly was strategy involved. Beauty is definitely a handicap when it comes to getting votes from women. Jenna sat across from a man in the F2, so it wouldn't apply. Parvati faced Amanda in the F2, got the female votes and won. Parvati faced Sandra in an F3, and lost. Props to Danni for overcoming that, but Stephanie wasn't unattractive and was disliked for other reasons. >
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byoffer 15808 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-15-12, 01:32 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
All this beauty talk cracks me up, because IMO Kim was equally a beauty. Consider the reunion show. Chelsea looked fantastic, but barely like the woman who we saw on the beach. Kim, OTOH, looked almost the same. Both looked beautiful, but imagine that Kim looked the same after 38 days on the beach and after getting all dolled up for the reunion. Quite a natural stunner.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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05-15-12, 06:58 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
You must have noticed her legs also!!! 
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-16-12, 06:16 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Spectacular body... Are you being serious? A surf board has a spectacular body then.She's pretty. Don't get me wrong. Loved the shorts at the reunion, of course. Just poor comparison with Chelsea. No, I agree with Jonas and Kim, "All the guys have agreed you are the cute girl this season." To which Kim immediately said, "Hell yeah."
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-18-12, 11:18 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Do they even use silicone anymore? I don't think so.Anyway, Chelsea would have a better body even if she had no work done. I have had enough of that though. They are both great lookin women. I have seen Kim in her post show interviews, and she has looked fantastic. Very hot, actually. Frankly, she looks like a million bucks! >
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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05-15-12, 08:00 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Kim & Chelsea vs Alicia & Troyzan" |
Not even close. Kim does have great eyes and nice legs though. And yeah, Kim is naturally mega-thin, so losing weight on the show didn't make her look much different. >
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p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
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