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"Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6"
iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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10-21-11, 01:22 AM (EST)
 
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"Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
My first instincts appear to be the better ones as once again the editing looked very favorably on Savii. The long scene at reward bodes VERY well for the tribe. Of course, that was the same reward that Rotu and Galu shared, and it didn't turn out very well for them. My guess is that this time it is different. Really, what an unfortunate bore this episode turned out to be, ending with another predictable boot. I was hoping for a vengeful Ozzy and a quick return to TC for Savii where nearly anyone could have been voted out. That could have been juicy. Instead, ho hum. An Upolu loss. Ozzy makes up with his tribe. What a fake. And of course, Mikayla is going home. You would have to really not be paying attention if you seriously thought Edna would be going home before her.
1. Edna - That's my girl. Mikayla and Stacey did have a reason to complain about her social game because ultimately, it worked. They were voted off while she remains. Her mission was to get close to Coach, and she succeeded. I loved the scene with Coach where she said she was prepared for battle. I have no idea how she would escape if Upolu goes to TC again, but the merge is coming. If she makes it there, her weakness becomes a strength.
2. Jim - Really, he has by far played the best game up to now. Without my girl, he's the clear #1. He might have overplayed his hand out of jealousy last episode, but everything he said was exactly true this episode. Ozzy has no where else to go. He also dominated in the IC and brought his tribe back from ruin. If he doesn't, one of his own alliance is certain to go home. 3. Coach - He said he would fight for Edna, and he did. Ultimately, he won the battle and got his way. Unfortunately, it might have cost him the solidity of his alliance. The IC showed a complete failure of leadership. Blaming someone else isn't leadership. Maybe if Coach concentrated on his own performance instead of bitching at Mikayla, he would have knocked down a couple targets himself and helped his team win the challenge. Albert and Sophie willing to immediately go against him also says a lot about his leadership. Coach seems attached at the hip to Brandon now, and that is an ugly place to be. I would drop him more, except I have issues with everyone else beneath him as well. 4. Albert - I want to drop the guy, but everyone else is even less deserving than him. He was silent for 4 episodes, and now all of sudden he is talking about his end game. It is craziness. For all we know, he might be as into playing the strategy game as Jim, we just haven't been shown it. Anyway, TC was BS. It wasn't about challenge strength versus loyalty. BS. It was about Coach doing what was best for him, and Albert and Sophie doing what was best for them Period. Coach has Edna's vote in his pocket, and Albert had Mikayla's vote in his pocket. Like he said, his END game. That was what it was about. It is hard to argue Mikayla's challenge prowess when you just lost a challenge because of her ineptness. You help Coach find the HII one episode and then you go against him the next? Explain that. 5. Sophie - Like Albert, only stays this high because I refuse to care anything about anyone on Savii. Same as Albert, she should not have voted against the rest of her alliance unless she knew they had the votes. Now, you just announced yourselves as the minority. 6. Cochran - He has sort of an underdog story, but I'm finding the in the majority Cochran to be a lot less likable than the afraid he is going home Cochran. We've seen the fish outta water story about a dozen times now. I guess running his mouth behind Ozzy's back might have made him feel cool for once. 7. Rick - Seems like a pretty unimportant character all around, but he saved my girl. So he gets bumped up for that. 8. Keith - He also performed well in the challenge to help turn the tide. His reaction to Ozzy's anger was idiotic. Of course your vote was a vote against him. Why else would you have sent Elyse home? It had everything to do with Ozzy. And you didn't vote for Ozzy so that he would help YOU win challenges. You didn't do it for HIM. Keith did what he had to to help reel Ozzy back in though. 9. Whitney - Same as Keith. Of course Ozzy is going to be ticked off. What did you expect? Stop acting innocent. You betrayed him and not even for any good reason. She had less to say about the move than Keith and Jim did. That is not a great sign for her. 10. Brandon - Yeah, he moves up a couple spots. He might make sense very rarely, but for one, I appreciate his refusal to break his word, this time. The fact that it is for no other reason than it is his word makes it even more impressive. Also, somewhere in his TC rant, he actually made, perhaps accidently, a profound point. In this society there are a hundred excuses to do the wrong thing: money, a job, a girl, because it won't hurt anyone. The problem is the more you compromise the easier it becomes. Eventually, its not even wrong any more. Does any of that apply to Survivor? That will be debated forever. Actually, I think Survivor is a great example of what he is saying. 11. Dawn - Is she still around? She had very little to say, which was fine with me. 12. Ozzy - This proves that being back 3 times doesn't guarantee you'll turn into Rob M. It is completely understandable that he was upset with the betrayal, but he didn't play it well, either with the reaction or the equally pathetic make-up afterwards.
RI
Christine - I was going to give her credit for being tougher than Matt, until she broke down. Again, her attitude is idiotic. If Upolu were in the majority when she returned, she would be screwed. Mikayla should beat her, but the edit doesn't suggest it. Mikayla - The one-handed crap wasn't working. Even Jeff was yelling about it. Even though she knew she was on the chopping block, she didn't listen to the suggestions given to her, and they lost, big time. Then she wonders why they would vote her out?? Burnt Out Elyse - A DAMN shame. >
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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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10-21-11, 06:52 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
Here are my rankings:1. Edna -- yeah, Coach may have been the one most going to bat for her, but she was smart enough to latch herself to him and try to be friendly with the others. It paid off for Edna. 2. Jim -- fine job, helping to win the Immunity Challenge! But beware -- everyone knows you're devious, and that might come back to haunt you. 3. Coach -- next time, focus on your own performance! Still, you won the battle on who would go at Tribal Council. 4. Albert -- Mikayla might be stronger than Edna, but the real reason for your support of her was her loyalty to you, since Mikayla proved inept at the challenge. 5. Sophie -- unless you really thought you could persuade Rick to vote out Edna, you shouldn't have voted against her. 6. Rick -- I have to put you up this high because you voted to save Edna. I'm glad you did. 7. Cochran -- I agree, I like the underdog more than the one who is in control. 8. Dawn -- you're in the majority. That's good for you. 9. Keith -- on the plus side, you reeled Ozzy back in and did well in the Immunity Challenge. On the minus side, you should have realized Ozzy would feel betrayed by your vote. 10. Brendon -- you stood up for Edna. I'm glad you did since I wanted Edna around more than Mikayla. 11. Whitney -- you have the same problem Keith did when it comes to voting against Ozzy by voting out Elyse. Not good. 12. Ozzy -- I understand your feelings of betrayal, but your actions didn't help you any. On Redemption Island: Christine -- this might be the first sign that she won't be like Matt. She's going -- the question is, when? Mikayla -- you should have used two hands! Then you would have been safe and not on Redemption Island. Out for good: Elyse -- next time, pay attention to what's going on around you. 
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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10-21-11, 08:52 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
Bravo Iltarion, your list is almost completely upside down!  1- Cochran: He finally stripped the sweater vest and went for it. 2- Keith: A big part of an important challenge, Keith's easy going personality had a lot to do with Ozzy returning to the fold. 3- Dawn: Her enthusiasm during the challenge and the reward was nice to see. It must have helped in the camp during those hours of drama. 4- Ozzy: He recovered about as well as we have ever seen from a betrayal. His initial reaction was childish but he was back on track before the challenge.
5- Albert: I will put him this high on the assumption that Rick changed his mind during Tribal Council. Mikayla was with Albert and Sophie so he was right to fight for her but not to the point of breaking the alliance.
6- Jim: Ozzy had an idol in his pocket, Redemption island as safety net and a potential pre-game deal with Coach so Jim was wrong: Ozzy could have gone the free agent route. Jim needs Ozzy more than the other way around. 7- Edna: Once more, she was saved without talking to anyone but Coach. She knows she's 6th and now they are down to 6 so where does that leave her? I do like the hints we saw that she may not be completely with Coach. Now, that would be ugly! 8- Sophie: She is becoming irrelevant fast. I had hopes for her but since then, nothing. With Albert, Mikayla and Rick, there is no way she should have lost that vote but she didn't do a thing to keep Rick in line. 9- Whitney: She had fun during the reward. 10- Rick: The silent man was the one to speak for the tribe. The irony! 11- Brandon: This is Survivor, not the real world and in Survivor, the most important thing is adaptation. His rigidity reminded me of Paschal at F4. But, at the same time he showed us the real Coach, the one Erinn called a jackass. The one that is so much more entertaining. (Note to the editors: There is no need to show us RussHell) 12- Coach: Never had I seen an alliance split in two like this. I mean, we often saw tribes splintered in the middle like Samburu. We often saw two egos go against each other and vote against each other. But never has an alliance split down the middle over 2 players outside the alliance. The closest I remember was LaMina where Dan and Terry argued over keeping Ruth or Sally but the two didn't really fight. Coach wasn't satisfied being responsible for two votes, he had to get his way with a third. RI: Mikayla: Nothing in her edit you say? Did you forget her first confessional where she praised Ozzy? Mikayla and Ozzy have to be together at one point and that only happens if Mikayla beats Christine. Christine: She had a nice run but her tears showed us that her story is over. RI is hard and she tried her best but she doesn't want to go back. Elyse: The disgraced Miss Washington was certainly nice to watch but she wasn't a player. With Ozzy and Keith as spectators why didn't she ask for an explanation? It would have made for interesting TV instead of that "I am stronger than I thought" crap. 
Ils sont fous, ces Romains!
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milkachulina 67 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-11, 00:45 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
1) Albert: I can’t figure out if he is sexy or not. That’s all. Oh wait, breaking up the tribe is going to bite him in the rear. Still, I wanted Edna out. I was rooting for Albert to be successful in his move to oust her. Alas, he didn’t have the lobbying power to defeat Mr. Duflunky (Coach).2) Jim 3) Keith 4) Cochran: He’s still a weasel.
5) Dawn 6) Rick: Well, I can finally identify him. Though, now the mental picture of him includes “the finger.” 7 & 8) Sophie and Whitney: Still a blur. 9) Coach: What a whiny little baby. I do hate him. 10) The Free Agent: What an idiot! I loved how he had to come crawling back to the tribe after going off on them at camp after the vote. The Free Agent thing doesn’t work well on Survivor. Why Ozzy didn’t know that is beyond me. Wait; it’s not beyond me. Ozzy is an idiot! 11) Brandon: One word: EXORCISM. That is the only way he will be released of his demons. 12) Edna: I want some kind of awful sea monster to leave the depths of the ocean, crawl into her camp, and eat her alive (on camera). That’ll help the ratings for sure! Redemption Island:
Makayla: Sorry to see her go. By the way, did Coach hit anything with the slingshot? Christine: Way to rock a 4th challenge, Christine! Makalya is going to be a tough challenger. Still, I wish you well! Gone:
Semhar, Mark, Stacy, & Elyse.
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garyc 118 desperate attention whore postings
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10-22-11, 08:29 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
LAST EDITED ON 10-22-11 AT 08:31 AM (EST)LAST EDITED ON 10-22-11 AT 08:30 AM (EST) 1) Coach: Honor, Loyalty, Integrity. Very funny. Still, looks to be in charge of his tribe in a season where the tribes appear evenly matched. 2) Jim: Don't know who is in charge at Savii. Probably not a bad thing for Jim who would otherwise be the next likely target. 3) Ozzy: Do think he rebounded nicely after initially acting like a child and his tribe certainly needs him so should be around at least until merge and after that who knows. But I don't think his long term future looks great unless Coach loses control of his tribe and Makayla comes back from RI. Savii did to him what Rob's tribe should have done to him last season. 4) Albert: After giving Coach the clue that found him the idol, think it was a hopeful sign that he argued against him. Potential leader of anti-Coach voting bloc, which given Coach's past record and Brandon as likely big problem ally down road could materialize quickly. 5) Sophie: If tribe gains numbers advantage could be in strong position. Should hope Mikayala returns and Ozzy decides to defect. If Rick switches back could have five vote alliance that is also strong in challenges. Woody Allen's nephew: Somehow still there. Could see him lasting much longer if reaches merge as no one sees him as a challenge threat. Whitney and Keith: Guess they are now with Jim whether they like it or not. Don't think they were wrong to vote against Ozzy, but not sure they have a plan. Dawn: Free agent to be? Edna: Not seeing the love. Would be a good UTR player except has too many votes against her. Rick: Not seeing the sense of voting with Coach, Brandon faction. Brandon: Might last as no threat to win game, but mouth makes him a dangerous ally.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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10-23-11, 00:28 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
LAST EDITED ON 10-23-11 AT 00:29 AM (EST)michel We've seen Edna talk with Rick before. For all we know, it is that relationship that saved her. Have I forgotten...? Yes. I sure have. Not every confessional means something. I would like to see Mikayla come back though. She would be much more interesting than Christine. milkachulina Let me be the first to volunteer to crawl up on the Upolu beach and eat Edna alive. >
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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10-23-11, 01:48 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
>We've seen Edna talk with Rick
>before. For all we know,
>it is that relationship that
>saved her. Maybe but I don't think so. Albert seemed to think that Rick would vote with him. Rick seemed to be very impressed by Brandon's words at TC. Since I wrote that though, I have watched the episode again and I really liked how everyone said Edna was a smart player. We haven't seen it yet but I think she will make an interesting move.
>Have I forgotten...? Yes. I
>sure have. Not every confessional
>means something. I would like
>to see Mikayla come back
>though. She would be much
>more interesting than Christine.
Not every confessional is important but the early ones in the premiere usually are, especially those that go to the theme of the season.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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10-26-11, 00:30 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
Some points after watching it for the 2nd time:The last conversation before TC was Albert telling Rick that he was the key. This conversation never happens if Albert is confident in Rick's vote. Rick would have assuredly told Albert he was voting with him, if he had ever planned on it. Albert makes it clear here that Rick has not told him that. Albert and Sophie were voting on a wing and a prayer. It was poor strategy. Why bother with the confessionals from Rick and Sophie about Christine unless Christine is going to come back at some point? I can't believe Mikayla will beat her. It doesn't fit with the edit. I also noticed that Whitney did not appear to be taking a turn for Savii during the latter half of that challenge. So, that makes it more understandable that Coach would be upset with Mikayla for not sitting down, if Whitney had done it for the other tribe. In the preview, Jim and Cochran were given the entire credit for the Elyse blindside. Keith and Whitney got no credit even though they were the key players. Again, Cochran was a complete non-factor in that move. As the guy on the chopping block, he would have voted for anyone that Jim told him to. And yet, the preview went out of its way to include him on the move. That is a great sign for him and a terrible one for Keith and Whitney.
>
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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10-26-11, 07:35 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
>The last conversation before TC was
>Albert telling Rick that he
>was the key. This conversation
>never happens if Albert is
>confident in Rick's vote. Rick
>would have assuredly told Albert
>he was voting with him,
>if he had ever planned
>on it. Albert makes it
>clear here that Rick has
>not told him that.
>
>Albert and Sophie were voting on
>a wing and a prayer.
>It was poor strategy. Rick didn't know himself. Coach and Brandon were voting on the same prayer. >Why bother with the confessionals from
>Rick and Sophie about Christine
>unless Christine is going to
>come back at some point?
>I can't believe Mikayla will
>beat her. It doesn't fit
>with the edit. Sophie said Christine would be the worse retruning player for upolu. I'm thinking there will be someone else even worse for them.
>I also noticed that Whitney did
>not appear to be taking
>a turn for Savii during
>the latter half of that
>challenge. So, that makes it
>more understandable that Coach would
>be upset with Mikayla for
>not sitting down, if Whitney
>had done it for the
>other tribe.
Whitney hadn't done a single thing in previous challenge. Mikayla won them two challenges all by herself. Anyway, the vote didn't include Whitney.
>In the preview, Jim and Cochran
>were given the entire credit
>for the Elyse blindside. Keith
>and Whitney got no credit
>even though they were the
>key players. Again, Cochran was
>a complete non-factor in that
>move. As the guy on
>the chopping block, he would
>have voted for anyone that
>Jim told him to. And
>yet, the preview went out
>of its way to include
>him on the move. That
>is a great sign for
>him and a terrible one
>for Keith and Whitney.
You don't say? 
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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10-26-11, 01:48 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
I hadn't even mentioned the fact that Mikayla's challenge ability also made her the better option to send to RI. You know Christine is a de facto Savii. You send Edna to RI; she loses. What good does that do you? You send Mikayla instead and hope she beats Christine. You smooth things over with her by not blindsiding her, and by saying you would like to keep her but you are going to stick to your word. You ultimately hope that Mikayla is the one that comes back from RI.
>
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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10-26-11, 02:51 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
LAST EDITED ON 10-26-11 AT 02:55 PM (EST)01. Jim. Jim holds onto #1 this week for pegging Ozzy both during and after the hissy fit, and he was instrumental in Savaii coming from behind to win the challenge. 02. Edna. She saved herself again. Well, actually, there wasn't much she could do under the circumstances, but she kept a level head, thought about what she said, and rode it out. 03. Cochran. Landed in a temporarilly comfortable spot and came out of his shell a bit, very likeable underdog when he isn't whining. Poor handling of the wheelbarrow put Savaii far behind in the challenge, but it was a smart plan to team Cochran and Dawn with powerhouse Ozzy so kudos to whoever came up with that. 04. Dawn. Good week. 05. Coach. His control of Upolu slipped a lot this week and his rant about the others not following his coaching would make sense except he wasn't actually coaching, not in the sense of making decisions and giving commands. 06. Keith. Bumping up for an impressive come from behind challenge victory. 07. Whitney. Bumping up for an impressive come from behind challenge victory. Keith and Whitney escaped potential damaging ramifications for their throwaway votes mainly thanks to Ozzy's hissy fit allowing them to unify with Cochran, Dawn and Jim while watching the Ozzy show. 08. Sophie. Trying to think of the tribe, looking forward to the next challenge, valuing challenge strength, all well and good. Was one-handed Mikayla worth it? Not really. 09. Rick. Put in a tough spot, he manned up and made the tough choice. Possibly he realizes that numbers at the merge isn't the most important thing, tribal unity is much more important, vital if the tribe doesn't have the numbers at the merge. Anyway, he's now in a position to try to solidify Upolu. (There were a couple of other options in the vote besides voting either Mikayla or Edna, but if he thought of them he obviously rejected those options.) 10. Ozzy. Hissy fit Ozzy might have earned the bottom-feeder spot this week, but he recovered nicely and got his head back in the game. Still, his mistake in revealing he holds the HII, it probably won't hurt him but it was a stupid thing to do out of anger. 11. Albert. See Sophie. 12. Brandon. I wonder sometimes if it is all a con he's playing, his Poor Russell version of trying to exercise control and get in their heads. And then I remember it is Brandon so it really doesn't matter if it's a con or he's being straight, he has horrible game. Redemption Island. Christine. Very childish. If you're going to flip someone off, do it right and proper, not like some gradeschool kid trying to be sly about it. Mikayla. Horrible challenge performance, what was she thinking with the one-handed shots? Bye-bye, Elyse. Should have aimed better, has only herself to blame for knocking out one of her own pucks.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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10-26-11, 05:19 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
>01. Jim. Jim holds onto #1
>this week for pegging Ozzy
>both during and after the
>hissy fit, and he was
>instrumental in Savaii coming from
>behind to win the challenge. Except that, with Ozzy and Keithney making up and the merge looming, Jim would be the obvious retatliation boot for Ozzy. He's lucky there's still RI.
>02. Edna. She saved herself again.
>Well, actually, there wasn't much
>she could do under the
>circumstances, but she kept a
>level head, thought about what
>she said, and rode it
>out.
Rode it out just like the coat-tail rider she is.
>03. Cochran. Landed in a temporarilly
>comfortable spot and came out
>of his shell a bit,
>very likeable underdog when he
>isn't whining. Poor handling
>of the wheelbarrow put Savaii
>far behind in the challenge,
>but it was a smart
>plan to team Cochran and
>Dawn with powerhouse Ozzy so
>kudos to whoever came up
>with that.
The wheelbarrow was Ozzy's job. >09. Rick. (There were a couple of
>other options in the vote
>besides voting either Mikayla or
>Edna, but if he thought
>of them he obviously rejected
>those options.) Do tell...
>Redemption Island.
>
>Christine. Very childish. If you're going
>to flip someone off, do
>it right and proper, not
>like some gradeschool kid trying
>to be sly about it.
She probably did it this way in the hopes it would escape the censors. Courtney Yates managed to flip Jeff the finger just like that and it was shown on TV!
>Mikayla. Horrible challenge performance, what was
>she thinking with the one-handed
>shots?
Insider clips told us that it came from Albert who told her not to pull back too hard as the coconut would fly too far. It took her a few tries to realize that Albert's "not too strong" didn't mean the same for her. Apparently, before the end, she was very close and distance wasn't the problem but editing must have concentrated only on her worst attempts.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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10-26-11, 07:00 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
Scenario 2 has another possible outcome: Edna goes to Coach or Mikayla goes to Al and everyone agrees that Rick's the one that should go to RI. Rick doesn't look like Dolly...
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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10-26-11, 07:17 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
Not if handled correctly. The biggest risk, actually, is if Mikayla goes ahead and votes Edna, or Edna goes ahead and votes Mikayla, then Rick's big move fails and he's at risk going forward.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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10-26-11, 07:12 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Survivor- S23 - Love/Hate List - Ep.6" |
But being a coat tail rider is a viable strategy, per michel.Edna didn't start on Coach's coat tails. She had to fight to get there. I see, it is all Albert's fault. Thanks for clearing that up. Mikayla would surely be mad at Coach and Brandon, but there is no reason for her to be upset with Albert and Sophie. They didn't even vote for her. If Albert and Sophie just assure her that Brandon and Coach will be one of the next targets, she is an Upolu for sure.
>
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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10-27-11, 11:07 AM (EST)
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18. "Tallies" |
Jim -- 13: 2.6
Cochran -- 21: 4.2
Edna -- 23: 4.6
Albert -- 25: 5
Keith -- 28: 5.6
Dawn -- 31: 6.2
Coach -- 32: 6.4
Sophie -- 33: 6.6
Rick -- 38: 7.6
Whitney -- 44: 8.8
Ozzy -- 48: 9.6
Brandon -- 54: 10.8
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p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
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