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"The Jury Got it Right!"
michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-22-09, 07:57 PM (EST)
 
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"The Jury Got it Right!" |
There have been a few jury decisions that haven't been accepted by many fans: Colby losing to Tina, Mariano losing to Amber and Amanda losing to Parvati have been the most debated but even Kelly losing to Hatch, Matt losing to Jenna, Twila losing to Chris and Stephenie losing to Danni rubbed more than one or two people the wrong way. By the nature of the game, a juror has to be convinced to vote for the player they believe was the best. It isn't the Juror's obligation to forgive and forget. It's the player's obligation to present his actions to the jury in a manner that will be accepted. Jurors can be emotional like Sue Hawk or detached like ?? There haven't been many! This proves that this game brings out a lot of emotions in its participants and most of those emotions come from the way the game ended for each juror. A player should ALWAYS consider that if he wants to earn the million. It is always best to share the glory of the moves and the blame that comes with it as long as you can prove that those moves were to your benefit. Rafe and Cirie did that better than anyone (even if they never got to plead their case!). Todd managed to do much the same thing in China even if everyone knew he was the lead strategist. JT, amazingly, convinced everyone that he was the strategist and that Stephen even if he shared in the decisions, was mostly his goofy side-kick. Yes, Stephen had himself to blame for letting that perception permeate the jury but JT used it to his advantage. He got the credit, Stephen the blame! This brings me to Russell: His biggest mistake was to take the full responsibility for every single boot and imagine it would go by smoothly. His ego didn't let anyone in on the plans. His ego cost him the million. The jury got it right and the votes even show that it wasn't strictly due to bitterness. If it had been strictly Anti-Russell, Mick would have received a vote or two. The fact that Natalie got 7 votes shows that the jury voted for her as much as against Russell. Russell, greatest player? The player that reminds me the most of Russell is DREAMZ!!! Before you jump down my throat consider that Dreamz was edited as an non-strategic player when it wasn't the case at all. The problem the editors faced if they had shown Dreamz's game plan was that it would have revealed the African American alliance that Earl initiated on Day 1 and that was taboo to EPMB. Dreamz was in an alliance with Earl, Anthony, Cassandra and Erica from Day 1. Then, wandering with a group of players, he got asked by Lilianna and Rocky to join an alliance dubbed "the Explorers". Dreamz agreed but informed Earl who had stayed behind to build the shelter. With Yau Man, Anthony, Sylvia, Gary, Cassandra, Boo and Lisi, Earl formed a counter-alliance, "The Shelter Builders". Sylvia used that knowledge to split the alliances between Ravu and Moto. Dreamz stayed close to the Explorers to see what they were up to. When Moto finally got a date with Jeff, Dreamz warned Cassandra and Lisi of the tribe's plan. Lilianna had failed to get Lisi inside an Hispanic alliance because Lisi didn't trust Lilianna (probably because Dreamz told Lisi that Lilianna was close to Rocky and Mookie more than because Lilianna was a flirt). With Lisi, Cassandra, Stacy and Boo, Dreamz got Alex and Edgardo to turn on the 1st leader of the "Explorer" alliance. Lilianna was booted. It was never shown that way but that's what really happened to the "Diabolical Mexican". When the tribe shuffle happened, the new tribes reformed mainly along the original Explorer and Builder alliances. After that, Dreamz next good move was to get Rocky voted out. He couldn't save Anthony and Lisi checked out of the game but Dreamz saved himself and got the 3 horsemen to turn on the other original leader. After the merge, it was all Dreamz. He went back to his alliance with Earl but he kept in contact with the 3 Horsemen. He saved Alex, (the only horsemen he trusted by then), when he managed to convince them that Alex was the target. Mookie gave up the idol, thinking it would change the game. Dreamz wanted Mookie gone but the switch to Edgardo only delayed his plan by one vote. In the end, Dreamz got himself in a great position at the F4 except that the jury hated him. His truck deal was no worse than Russell offering deals to John, Dave and EVEN Brett before booting them remorselessly. Dreamz was responsible for many of the boots in Fiji. Like Hantz, he had no idea how the jury perceived him. If you think Hantz is the greatest player ever, you'd have to put Dreamz right there behind him!
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garcor 432 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
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12-23-09, 06:58 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-23-09 AT 07:10 AM (EST)LAST EDITED ON 12-23-09 AT 06:59 AM (EST) The jury is always right because it is the jury. It can vote for whomever it wants. That doesn't mean the winner is necessarily deserving. Natalie made the two smart moves named at the reunion show. Otherwise her game play looked little different than dozens of other players who didn't win. Russell was the real, though unelected, leader of his tribe for almost the entire game. It was mentioned, or implied in a number of comments by Dave, Mick etc. Listening to the jury questions and comments (and Natalie said it was a lot worse (and longer) in person) it seemed the Galu's on the jury weren't particularly impressed with any of the finalists. Definitely think they voted against Russell more than they voted for Natalie. (Think if it had been a final two either Mick or Jaison would likely have beaten Russell.) What seems a little sad is that Russell still doesn't seem to understand why he lost. Some seasons there is a clearly deserving winner. If it wasn't Russell this season (and it's easy to understand why he lost) then there wasn't one. There's just the person walking away with a million dollars . . and the title Russell wanted.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-23-09, 07:54 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-23-09 AT 07:59 AM (EST)According to Game Theory, being a follower or a leader are two valid strategies depending on the circumstances. In Fiji, all 19 players were together for the first few days. Leader-types emerged quickly: Rocky, Lilianna, Mookie, Alex and even Sylvia and Gary, the two elected leaders (we didn't see it but Sylvia won a tie-breaker) In that situation, the best move is to be a follower. Earl understood it and acted more like a consultant until he got switched to the leaderless NuMoto. Dreamz also understood it and acted like an undercover agent throughout the game. Russell was in a tribe without a real leader. Stepping up was the thing to do. Russell made the right move in his situation but so did Dreamz. Finding idols? Dreamz found out that the 3 horsemen had the idol and he managed to get it switched to the player he wanted to have it. Not bad. Anyway, Idols are accessories. Survivor is about the people. Truck deal or F2 deals? Same thing. And it was Yau Man who was stupid to try to bribe someone out of a million. Garcor: Deserving winner? According to who? The game is to survive to the end. Those that avoid Jeff's snuffer deserve a shot at making their case. The one that gets the vote deserves the win. Everything else is arm-chair quaterback or upset fans. I've read comments that so and so didn't deserve it about every winner. Yes, EVERY winner. So, stand in line. Natalie isn't the best winner ever for sure but she's better than quite a few in my opinion.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-23-09, 10:07 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
>>...That doesn't
>mean the winner played a
>particularly strong game. Natalie
>didn't. You watched the
>season, no? I understand what you are saying but I don't agree with your definition of "Strong Game". Let me explain it this way: If this was a cross-country race we'd know exactly what constitutes a strong game by using a chronometer. Survivor isn't such a contest. MANY, many players were voted out because they tried to play a "Strong" game. Silas and Deena come to mind in the early years, Aaron, Ace, Marcus and Brendan in later years. If playing a "strong" game means being a big schemer, it often has been suicidal. Now, if playing a strong game is making alliances and getting people to not only vote with you but also want to vote for you at the end, then Natalie played a very "Strong" game, better than Russell's. Everyone in original Foa Foa and most everyone in Galu liked her. That's saying something. And, even if you want to credit the player that controlled the most votes AND made good decisions in the process, then I don't think Russell played that well after the merge. Most of the credit for destroying Galu goes to Galu! - The Erik boot had nothing to do with Russell. Natalie is the only Foa Foa that can receive credit here. - The Kelly vote was decided by Shambo. Sure, Russell needed to use his idol but he was targeting Monica and he was lucky that Dave was so short-sighted!
Anyway, Brett was the right move here. - Russell deserves little credit for the Laura vote. Again, it was Shambo who decided it and it was John's stupid move that finalized it. - As Jaison and Mick pointed out, Russell switching the next vote from Dave to John was quite foolish. It could so easily have back-fired and they could have lost Shambo. - Voting out Dave wasn't bad but again it wasn't Russell's doing. One could also object that Brett was a better choice here. - Eliminating Shambo wasn't a good move for Russell. Natalie was much more liked than Shambo. Russell needed Shambo in the F3 to have a shot.
Russell was great at creating conflicts and finding idols. That's practically all that his "Strong" game was.
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garcor 432 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
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12-23-09, 11:48 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Russell was the acknowledged leader of Foa Foa. Even Mick and Jaison admit to this in their exit interviews on this site. He also won the IC the Foa's had to have or Brett would now be a millionaire. While he wasn't great at the other challenges, he certainly made an effort. He had one considerable weakness as a player. I'd agree that "obviously deserving" might have been better than "deserving." I wouldn't argue if you claimed that Brett or Jaison were both deserving. They lasted almost to the final TC, had strong moments and did not quit, but were voted out at a point in the game where whomever was voted out had an real argument for why they deserved to be kept in the game. Some winners seem obviously deserving the moment final TC ends. Brian, Tom, Parvati, JT; even if the votes were close it would be hard to argue they weren't clearly superior to their final TC opponents. This season all three players had flaws: Russell's issues were obvious; while both Natalie and Mick were strong social players who hadn't done much else of note. Absolutely agree that much of Galu's problems were self-created. But that should extend in part to Erik's being voted out. Galu jumped on the opportunity because they felt secure enough in their numbers advantage to begin targeting each other. Take that away and Natalie didn't do anything memorable all season long, unless we count killing a rat. Her game was almost entirely social.
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BrassFan 322 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host"
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01-03-10, 07:30 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
>MANY, many players were voted out
>because they tried to play
>a "Strong" game. Silas and
>Deena come to mind in
>the early years, Aaron, Ace,
>Marcus and Brendan in later
>years. If playing a "strong"
>game means being a big
>schemer, it often has been
>suicidal. Exactly. Yet, Russell came in with much bravado, and basically dared anyone to challenge him. The end result was ONE tribal council where they tried to vote him out, and no one from his former tribe voted against him. So, he played a very strong game, and I consider that to be a very good social game. When you are playing that hard, and you are able to keep your alliance intact, that says something.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-23-09, 08:25 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
> Not that
>this was one of your
>better seasons, but a sad
>ending to a season nevertheless. I quite enjoyed it!
>As for the ridiculous comparison between
>Russell and Dre (who I
>refuse to call Dreamz)...I wouldn't
>even waste my time with
>a comment.
You're right: As soon as Jeff surprised the Fiji castaways about the F3 format, Dreamz had enough self-awareness to know he had lost. But consider that Dreamz had planned on an F2 with Cassandra and we wind up much closer to the present situation.
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sol 219 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
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12-24-09, 12:05 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
If the jury got it right, then why did Russell, in his interview, say ... "Erik Cardona told me he made a mistake on the vote. Brett Clouser told me he made a mistake on the vote. Kelly Sharbaugh said she made a mistake. And I got two votes -- that's five right there. "Interview is found here Regarding the social game, Reality TV World: Unlike Natalie, you had said that you were worried that Mick might actually be able to beat you in the jury vote. Why was that? Russell: How come he didn't get any votes? He had a social game and he did way more work at camp and he was better at physical play. But he didn't get any votes. That's because the girls got together at Ponderosa and they wanted to vote Natalie. They didn't want a guy. Natalie was the one they wanted out of that group. Found in the same interview. Also, Russell says, "People say I didn’t play a social game. I had a huge social game – I had Natalie on my coattails. I had Mick, Jaison, and Shambo following me." The above was found in this interview He also comments in that interview, "...It broke my heart when I found out I didn’t win. I played so hard. I was so focused. I wanted that title. I didn’t get it. The girl that did absolutely nothing. She says her best move was to go talk about Erik. That was my decision – I told her to do that and she did what I told her to do. Her best strategic move was to jump on my back." And he said, "I played that game with all my heart and soul. I had a feeling that I wasn’t going to win – I can read read people, that’s what I do. Even still ,when they said Natalie won, it broke my heart. I knew she won but I took it so serious." (Bold is my addition). I understand that Russell is bitter, and I believe he's not bitter over not winning the money, his bitterness is not getting the title "Sole Survivor". There are so many people on that jury he disrespects (because they voted with their hearts and not their heads), but he's not the only one who was critical of the jury ... RNO: Former contestant Eliza Orlins tweeted that this was the worst jury ever. Also in an interview he said, "I knew the only people that would vote for me was John Fincher, because he's a strong man, and Shambo, because she's a strong woman." I get the impression a lot of people don't like Russell because he tells them a harsh truth rather than sugar coating it. He makes people feel uncomfortable, and weaker people want to be comfortable, even if they are living a lie. I understand his position that it takes a strong person to take strong medicine ... and it is a game after all. He's not the only one that took it seriously, he was just serious in a different way. Many on that jury were serious about having their fragile egos hurt, and they reacted with their votes. As far as the interviews go, I tend to believe Russell ... because he was there ... I wasn't, and neither was anyone else on this thread. Therefore I'll choose to believe Russell over any of the speculating spectators here ... and I am a speculating spectator. Nope, I'm not going to jump onto Michels coattails on this, even though I have great respect for his passion for and his knowledge of "Survivor".
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-24-09, 12:37 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Russell is a bully. And a poor sport. People are sometimes going to tell him what he wants to hear just so he'll go away.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-24-09, 02:53 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-24-09 AT 03:25 PM (EST)
Dabo is exactly right. Anyway, Russell himself said: "Why would you believe ANYTHING that I say."
His post show interviews were just a load of crap. The way he treated Natalie made me lose all the respect that his incredibly manucured edit had created. It was all smokes and mirrors because the man is really the creep that used the Katrina tragedy to his advantage. Speaking of people that were there; Brett didn't sound like he was regretting not voting for Russell: http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/exclusive-brett-clouser-discusses-his-survivor-samoa-experience-10136.php Reality TV World: Although you said Russell would have posed a threat, did you think you still would have basically been guaranteed the $1 million? "Brett: Yeah. I played a game...I developed solid relationships, and that was my strategy. It was a heavy social-based game. Russell didn't really play into that too much, Natalie played into that -- obviously that showed. Ultimately what is most important is social dynamics in the game that we played and in our current season." Reality TV World: What do you think, if anything, could have cost you the $1 million had you made the final Tribal Council?
...
Brett: Obviously, it's in the delivery. The reason Natalie won is the delivery, the way she was able to communicate herself. If I... had a lack of sensitivity towards the jury members, not understand the way they think... could have easily detracted votes from them. Reality TV World: I'm assuming you still ended up casting your jury vote for Natalie, correct? Brett: Yeah, I voted for Natalie... and I think all but one or two people went into the final Tribal Council as a big question mark...Going into that Tribal Council I had no idea who I was going to vote for... I really was hoping for someone to create compelling arguments for themselves and obviously compelling arguments against themselves. Reality TV World: Looking at it as objectively as you can, do you think the jury votes were based more on a belief that Natalie deserved to win or that Russell didn't deserve to win?
...
Brett: I think Russell felt like he deserved to win more than anyone else, and I think because he felt he deserved to win more than anyone else that really was his downfall. I remember during the Tribal Council a few weeks ago... I said, "In this game you have to be humble, and you have to keep that social context." I think for him -- analyzing his strategy -- he didn't really necessarily do that. At the end of the day, you've got to have people write your name down to vote for you. As brilliant as his strategy may be perceived by some, he wasn't able to get votes." As for Kelly, she had this to say after her eviction: "But we’re people, not just little chess pieces he moves around. We have the vote in the end and he’s not making the emotional connections that you need to win. He treats people terribly and he talks about them. I question his integrity as a human being. He said something about how God made him for the game. I’m not a religious person, but it’s still offensive that the most evil player ever thinks he’s doing God’s work." You quoted this passage: "That's because the girls got together at Ponderosa and they wanted to vote Natalie. They didn't want a guy. Natalie was the one they wanted out of that group." That's exactly how a misogynist would think. Russell showed his hatred and distrust of women and it reached an unparralleled level on Survivor. Anyway, he had plenty of guys on the jury but Natalie earned votes from Erik, Dave, Brett and Jaison.
On Russell's ability to read people that you highlighted, I think he's at grammar school level (maybe first grade) because he read them all the wrong way. Imagine, he was coaching Natalie on how to earn SECOND place!!! Laughable Creep.
As far as Eliza's twitter, a lawyer should know better than to substitute a personal opinion to the verdict of a jury. If they voted that way, it's because that's what they saw and heard. She even said that she just reacted and didn't think it would create any controversies. You should read the criticism she took over at Sucks.
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-24-09, 07:21 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Gosh I usually like truth tellers, but I really don't think I can put Russell in the category of truth tellers.Harsh teller, bully who will say anything to anyone if he thinks it will make him feel better about him self by putting other people down, or whatever other motivation there is for making all other people wrong and Russell the only worthy being on the show or on the planet. Just because a bully thinks every other human being on the planet is an unworthy weakling doesn't make it true that everyone else is whatever his ego and agenda spews repeatedly. I wouldn't believe that Russell's words are the pure truth about anything. After all as much as I hate to admit it he is a human being. All human beings speak their interpretation of events and not the pure truth. I just find him to be more ego and agenda driven than most in his interpretation, and I admit that is my interpretation of him, the reunion, and his post show interviews. If you want to believe he is the only person that can see things as they actually are and not how they want them to be, etc, then go for it, but I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of that man's mouth in or out of the game. If you got someone on a show that wants to put the target on their back and wants to shoot their mouth off and ##### everyone off, making sure they are in the finals with you is not a bad social game even if Russell thinks that is a stupid weak thing to do. If someone's willing to be the goat without you having to do anything to make them look bad than just cheer them on and do what it takes to make sure you are sitting next to them in front of the jury. Better to have someone like that next to you facing the jury than on the jury. Expecting people to have the same high belief in you as a minor deity really never seems to work out. His bitter angry words in the interviews shows, at least to me, he can't understand that other people do not see him as the minor deity he is and why people just won't see he is the only person who can win. I don't know why it anyone would want to believe he is the minor deity he says he is, but to each their own. There sure do seem to be people who do think Russell is as magnificent as Russell keeps saying he is. (at least based on comments I've seen on a number of places) He likes hurting people. He likes burning their socks and putting their lives in danger by dehydration. He thinks all that is funny. As is telling people whatever lies he wants, he finds it very funny. Why that is being seen as a good thing, I do not quite understand. Did he play the game hard, absolutely, did he play it smart in all ways, not in my book, and frankly I would be shocked if all what I interpret as sociopathic behavior is completely confined to the game of Survivor and the post-game interviews. He is just way too good at it to have never had any practice at it. I just hope we don't see him splashed all over TMZ in the near future like some other reality TV stars that seem to believe their own hype way too much.
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MizJazmine 532 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
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12-29-09, 07:03 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
^5 Snidget!...and here I thought I was the only one thinking this! Very well said. 
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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
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12-24-09, 09:01 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Sorry to disappoint you, but I can't accept your opinion on RussHell. He's bitter, and I understand why -- he probably wanted the title of Sole Survivor, if not the money. But he really didn't understand the jury the way Natalie did! If he did, he would've treated others as people, not as pawns and robots. Because he didn't, he lost.Incidentally, do you know why I don't like RussHell? It began the first round -- when he dumped the water! Who'd like a guy who does something like that? That left me with a really bad impression of him, and although I came to respect the fact that he played hard, his attitudes towards others remained poor -- especially towards the women. If he hadn't treated them so badly, their egos might not have been so badly hurt and they might've voted for him to win. And I might have liked him -- or at least respected him more. I just can't believe everything he says -- although no doubt he believes all or at least most of what he says. He's not a harsh truth teller, even if he believes it. He's really an insecure egomaniac -- and that's sad. 
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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12-26-09, 09:41 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-26-09 AT 11:19 AM (EST)>If the jury got it right,
>then why did Russell, in
>his interview, say ... "Erik
>Cardona told me he made
>a mistake on the vote.
>Brett Clouser told me he
>made a mistake on the
>vote. Kelly Sharbaugh said she
>made a mistake. And I
>got two votes -- that's
>five right there. " The first problem with that statement is that he's a blowhard and an egomaniac. He won't accept that he screwed up with the jury. And nobody's going to tell him straight to his face, "Nah I made the right move with voting Natalie" when he's behaving like a troll.
>Also, Russell says, "People say I
>didn’t play a social game.
>I had a huge social
>game – I had Natalie
>on my coattails. I had
>Mick, Jaison, and Shambo following
>me."
Like Natalie said in her interview, she realized that RussHell's ego was getting further and further out of control, so all she had to do was to let RussHell hang himself. I think the other FoaFoas saw RussHell as the perfect foil to go to the finals with because the Galus would hate the way he played and be not as likely to give him their votes. We saw them talking about jury votes during the final three episodes, so they were aware of who might be perceived as jury-friendly and it would have been easy for Natalie/Jaison/Brett/Mick to vote RussHell out if they feared he'd dominate the jury votes. They didn't so he stayed in the game. RussHell was too arrogant to think that Natalie could beat him - he said twice, "may the best MAN win."
>RNO: Former contestant Eliza Orlins tweeted
>that this was the worst jury ever.
Eliza is a twit. She wouldn't have voted for RussHell if she was there in the game - she wouldn't have accepted his misogynistic behaviour and overbearing attitude.
>As far as the interviews go,
>I tend to believe Russell
>... because he was
>there ... I wasn't, and
>neither was anyone else on
>this thread. Therefore I'll choose
>to believe Russell over any
>of the speculating spectators here
>... and I am a
>speculating spectator.
As I posted elsewhere, it's one thing to do what RussHell did in the game - I have no problem with how he played as it's "Outwit, Outplay, Outlast" - but it's another thing to act the way he did in the interviews and at the reunion when the show is over. You can say he did what he had to do in order to win the game, and I can easily respect that. But with the game over with, he was churlish, petulant, arrogant, misogynistic, and condescending with his ego running amok several months after the game ended. He called Natalie "the bitch" in interviews. He's an asshole, plain and simple. He lost the game because of his attitude towards others. From RNO's interview, Russell: Can I cuss? I’m f@%#ing really pissed off! It is a f@%#ing shame that the bitch that jumped on my back the whole time, rode my coattails, won the game. It's been four months. Get over it, RussHell.
ETA: Here's what I consider to be a very good breakdown of the season (initially posted by michel):
NPR article Russell, on the other hand, lectured and taunted Natalie and Mick before the final tribal council about how everyone was going to vote for him, how he would make them look like fools if they even tried to defend themselves. He insisted that he had it in the bag. In short, he had no idea how he was perceived. His social skills are, despite the "manipulative mastermind" narrative the show tried so hard to present, very, very poor. That's why he sat at the reunion show almost in tears over not winning. He was stunned and shocked that his plan didn't work, because it never occurred to him that other people didn't think he was as great as he thought he was. It never occurred to him that other people correctly read his bluster as bluster; that his alliance was saying, "Oh, yeah, buddy, you're the big genius, I'm sure you'll win" and then turning around and rolling their eyes when he walked away. It never occurred to him that he was being simultaneously used by three other people, all of whom had the same plan to let him bluster and brag and make himself someone nobody wanted to give money, and then to grab the money right out from under him, taking advantage of his enormous blind spot when it comes to social relationships. Ultimately, one of those three people had the game go precisely as she planned. How, exactly, is this not deserving to win?
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-09, 03:47 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
"Go precisely as she planned" ?? Whuh?? Let's keep it real now. Russell and Brett fought it out in the last IC. Brett wins, he wins the million. Did Natalie plan for that? No. Actually, she didn't plan for anything. She hoped to make it to the end with Russell, if he chose to take her. That was her plan. She made a vague plan on Day 1: a coattail strategy as unoriginal as Yasmin saving herself for the challenges, and then hoped and prayed Russell made all the right moves to get them there, including beating Brett, without which, no one on Foa Foa wins. She didn't even have a good FTC. It simply didn't matter. Jaison never finished his analogy of Russell being the co-worker everyone hates. He left out the fact that the only reason your team gets to keep their jobs is because Russell makes you better than your competition. Without him, you're all out of work because of your own ineptness. True, Russell may be an @ss, but if you want to paint the right picture, you have to include the whole story.
>
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-09, 09:39 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Did I ever tell you my analogy of Russell playing survivor like a terrorist? Natalie didn't do much except understand the game and the people in it. Anyway, Russell didn't do as much as CBS and Probst wanted us to believe. We now know that only editing made it look like he found the first idol without a clue. Remove all his "I'm the greatest ever" and "they're all stupid" from his confessionals and what's left? Not much. Before giving any credit to Russell, consider that Foa Foa had no chance if Galu had simply played Junior Varsity Survivor. Note that, if Galu had played it smart, the only Foa Foa with a chance to be Sole Survivor would have been Natalie. Coincidence? Not really.
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finallytyping 400 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-09, 12:33 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Hunh? Russell had a clue? I tend to avoid spoilers because I don't like to be spoiled, but since the season is over, could someone explain briefly about this or direct me somewhere that I could read about it? (without spoiling next season...) Thanks!
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-09, 01:29 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-29-09 AT 01:32 PM (EST)I think the editing showed Russell finding the idol BEFORE Yasmin was in their camp with the clue. He found it after she had the clue and I think there is some interviews and things that indicate he had some info about what the clue said before he went looking. But I may be misremembering that. ETA: Found this
http://www.digitalspy.com/ustv/s76/survivor/interviews/a192258/russell-hantz-survivor-samoa.html He says he saw Yasmin looking in trees so he knew to look in trees. He didn't find it before Yasmin was in camp with the clue.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-09, 03:39 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
I thought Hogeboom only changed his last name! You mean Gary and, yes, Russell's boast of being the only one to find an idol without a clue was only due to his ignorance of Survivor history.Snidget told it right. The editors showed Russell finding the clue before they received tree mail for the challenge that would eventually lead Yasmin to Foa Foa. Ben's war paint and Jaison's limp were big clues that the editors had put that segment out of sequence to boost Russell's claim of being a genius. Smoke and Mirrors. (I was pretty happy to find that out because I had written this after episode #2: Note that during this whole search in camp, Mike was nowhere to be seen and Ben even had some war paint on already in the first shot after Jaison’s confessional. Russell probably found the idol AFTER Yasmin arrived in camp. So, we can suppose that he read the clue she was given. If so, it’s very revealing that the story wants us to see Russell as a genius.) http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/7235.shtml#30
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-30-09, 08:44 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
LMAOI'm thoroughly convinced some of you must have been Dan Brown's consultants when he was writing the DaVinci Code. Surely some conspiracy theory will bust open the "fact" that Russell had help finding all his HIIs, otherwise we may have to actually admit a hated and disliked person can also be a solid, dominant Survivor player. In the case of Gary (Guatemala) finding the HII, we heard Gary's words right from Gary's lips that he observed Judd looking up for the idol and that's how he discovered it. Does that qualify as finding the idol "without a clue?" On second thought please don't answer that question or we may get a similar debating thread like we had earlier in the season as to whether several players "kicked out" of a challenge in Thailand were really "kicked out." I must say I'm somewhat "impressed" with the "revelations" to suggest that Russell does not deserve credit for finding the idols. An earlier post indicated those "revelations" may have been obtained from the Spoiler Forum...I wouldn't be surprised. What's even more comical than these presumed conspiracy theories are posters in the Spoiler Forum venturing their way into Fanatics and Bashers so they can be Mr. or Miss Smarty Pants with their "predictions" and analysis. Perhaps they can enlighten those of us who do not post in Spoilers and shed some light on how Russell found his second idol under the bridge? Do we have footage of a Production crew member staring at the bridge? If we do than why would Gary (Guatemala) get credit for finding his HII and not Russell? Maybe there is a secret clip of Russell sitting up in a tree and watching a crew member hiding the idol? Of course if there's no explnation I'm sure some Sheriff Spin Doctor will draw the "edit card" like a gun and say whatever helped Russell was "edited" out! LOL For the record folks, I personally think Russell is one of the biggest dovchbags ever casted for the show. On the same token also feel he is one of the most solid, dominant players of the game. Apparently most of the Jury refused to separate the two, and based on some posts, this thread is an extension of those jury members. HMMMMM, I guess Survivor IS a "Reality" Show after all???
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-30-09, 11:32 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Not an imagined conspiracy theory because it came directly from the creep himselfHantz: "Sometime they’ll make it easy, right. So that’s why I started looking. I know people think, “Oh, there’s no way he’ll find it without a clue.” I seen Yasmin looking up and down trees, and nobody else was looking at Yasmin. She had the clue, and she’s looking all up and down trees, so you know what that tells me? It’s in a tree. But nobody’s looking, because everybody’s too busy, you know, getting friendly with everybody. Not playing the game. That’s when I found the first one." Events are shown out of sequence all the time, it's just a question of paying close attention and understanding why they do it that way. Here, it certainly help establish Russell as a genius. Funny how Hantz says getting friendly isn't playing the game. He was clueless to so many aspects of the game! And there was nothing spoiling the information that Russell found the idol after Yasmin came to camp. If I'm lying, there are plenty of people that would call me out on it. I didn't say a thing about the one under the bridge. Maybe you're on to something that a camreman was standing next to the bridge!!!!!
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-31-09, 09:03 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
LAST EDITED ON 12-31-09 AT 09:03 PM (EST)From the interview linked by Snidget above: The one I found under the bridge was pretty quick but it was still about two hours. The second place I looked was the bridge and anyone who looked under there could have seen it. It was in plain sight. I never said he had help from production in playing the game in any way. There are very strict rules governing game shows, very harsh penalties for violating those rules, CBS and SEG wouldn't take the risk for anything. The HIIs were relatively easy to find this time as compared to how they have been done in previous editions. All the players in this edition were on a level playing field in this respect, it just happened to work out best for Russell in how he decided to play the game. Anyway, Happy New Year everyone!
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-31-09, 10:03 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Here's a good rule of thumb for you:
- When he tries to make himself look even better than a team of editors and his personal pimp Jiffy tried to do, put some doubt on what he says.- When he actually shows that he wasn't that smart, you should feel inclined to believe him.
This season, we had lawyers, a doctor, a scientist so what will it take to make you realize it isn't a problem of intelligence. The real dumb ones go on BB where someone can win even if they've never learned to tell time!! Survivor casting usually hires outgoing, relatively bright people (except when they go for the model/actor type so prevalent in Palau). Players become duds when they reach the beach because they simply get paranoid and overwhelmed by the conditions.
Mostly, people simply don't understand the game. I'll give you a hint: The key is to make friends, create bonds every chance you get with as many people as you can. Listen to them, get to know them and understand what makes them tick. It's so simple. If you can do that and apply Game Theory, you'll have a great advantage. If you play with the main idea of winning immunity and finding idols; good luck, you'll need tons of it.
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-31-09, 10:59 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Yep, I give him props for finding the idols, but I think he (and Jeff and the editors) did try to pimp the "only one who ever dared to look" thing a bit far.I'm sure people poked around without clues before now, or at least paid attention to where people they knew had clues were poking around. Two of the idols he had either a direct or indirect clue for (because he admits the first idol was found after the clue was given instead of before, so he had an idea of where they might have hidden it rather than just randomly found it). I mean everyone remembers he and others got a video clue and all that for number three, it wasn't like that one was found without any help at all. I do think he looked for them a lot harder than most people ever have, but I think that is because he was rightfully paranoid that people would want to vote his abrasive self off. Being abrasive was either part of his play or part of his personality he can't help. I do think he may have been self-aware enough around the edges of his huge ego that making friends wasn't going to be his strong suit. So he knew if he was going to get far he was going to have to have the idols. So that is a lot better than some who don't even know they are being abrasive and are shocked, shocked I tell you, when people don't like them and vote them out just so they don't have to deal with them for a few days. He played hard, and in a way that worked pretty well for him. Had there been a different set up to the season with how the idols were distributed he may not have done so well. At least sometimes people have been smart enough to not send the person they want gone to the place where the idol is. I'm sure he doesn't see himself as a self-entitled bitter sore loser even with what he has said in the interviews, etc. now the game is over. Maybe that is why he couldn't see that the jury was likely to be filled with self-entitled bitter sore losers. He only seemed to project that onto them after he lost, but couldn't see it before. The trick of Survivor is always how to get people who deeply believe you do not deserve to win and that they should have your place in the finals (at least most of the jury will be of that mindset every freaking season) to vote for you anyway. As far as we saw he didn't give things some of the things most people who lost want to feel better about the loss. I mean if he'd applied that "can I buy the words sole survivor" to others and given them a bit of humility or respect I think they might have overcome the bitter jury thing. At least it would have been a close vote rather than a blow out. That it wasn't closer than it was indicates to me that what we didn't see in the tribal was probably more of that I'm the ego and all of you are not even worthy to wipe my 39 days worth of dirt encrusted feet. If you push people into the place where all they want to do is give you the finger, AND they have the power to actually give it to you in a big way, they will screw you over, pretty much every time. For most of the game the other players didn't have that much power to just screw Russell over. He had the idols or when he ran out of those he had the numbers. So they had lots of screw you locked and loaded and finally in a position where they could screw him over, and they did. The one person he actually seemed to make a friendship with, even though it was only about faking it so she'd do his bidding, gave him his vote. Even though he voted her mullet out of the game. A bit more of that and he would have gotten a lot more votes. However he couldn't seem to hide his inflated ego or his disdain of the others long enough to see that.
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garcor 432 desperate attention whore postings
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12-25-09, 09:43 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
When you think Russell you see Dreamz. After reading Jaison's comments about following the snake, I think of Russell as Survivor's version of Vic Mackey; his strongest qualities the relentless quality of his scheming, when others are sleeping or talking he's planning his next move.
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MizJazmine 532 desperate attention whore postings
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12-29-09, 07:19 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Yes the jury got it right and I'm soooo happay! Ahhhh yes DREAMZ. I still laugh when I think about Survivor Fuji. To look up and see Cassandra, Dreamz, & Earl sitting up there as the final 3 still cracks me up  . I don't think Earl could have won without Dreamz. Just like Natalie probably couldn't have won without Russell being Russell. Luved Suvivor Fuji...
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Kyree 25 desperate attention whore postings
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01-04-10, 08:34 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Let's not forget that Jaison went to the sequester house before the vote. There is no doubt in my mind that he relayed the fact that Russell was a "millionaire" to everyone there. He even asked a question concerning that topic to the final three. I think this very much swayed the vote in Nat's favor. Who would vote to give a millionaire or a doctor a million? I know I wouldn't. Russ's mouth was his own worst enemy.
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Wacko Jacko 2434 desperate attention whore postings
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01-05-10, 09:28 AM (EST)
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42. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
No, the jury got it wrong. They themselves admitted it after the show. This is the one season where someone got rewarded for riding coattails. In the end the decision is bad for reality shows. Id' write more but I could list a couple dozen reasons why they got it wrong. Russell wasn't even a jerk to the players. He tried to talk with and had some kind of relationship with every single jury member with the exception of maybe the first two voted out because he didn't have time to.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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01-05-10, 08:34 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
I welcome all of RussHell's fans and I'd love to read your couple dozens of reasons why they got it wrong.
As is, the two reasons you did give didn't convince me:
- Russell had 6 days to get to know Kelly and he batlled with Erik from day 1. If that wasn't enough to get their respect, maybe he should have voted someone else out first.But mostly, I have to comment on "Russell wasn't even a jerk to the players." I have 2 main objections: - I'm betting that a lot of his worse behavior was hidden from our screens to make us think he had a chance. Think of his 3rd idol: He runs around looking for it and suddenly he's in the hammock, smiling from ear to ear. From Insider clips we learned that Galu's reaction was: "The jerk found it". They saw him as being lucky much more than a genius. - How many deals, including F3 ones, did he break? Laura, John, Monica, Shambutch, Dave, Brett and Jaison. SEVEN. He's very lucky to have received 2 of those votes because so many of these deals were pointless. That is the definition of being a jerk because part of the underlying contract of any deal or alliance is "Screw me over and I'll screw you over." If you're backstabbed there is nothing wrong about withholding your vote. Russell broke his own contracts and you expect the other players not to follow through with the consequences? If I'm in the game and I hear that you will vote for the "best strategic player no matter what" then you're the best and the safest person for me to boot. I'd even make sure you knew I was the one that backstabbed you. That would be bad for reality TV because it would end to social experiment which is the basis of Survivor.
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Kyree 25 desperate attention whore postings
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01-06-10, 10:50 AM (EST)
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45. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
Very well said Michel. I would add the fact that Russell made very little effort to get to know anyone on Galu, except for Shambo. Again, perhaps production chose not to show any of these moments if he did, but, Natalie played a VERY social game and we saw plenty of that. Let's talk about dumb blondes again, k? She was deserving, period.
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RocketScientist 62 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-10, 04:13 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: The Jury Got it Right!" |
LAST EDITED ON 01-11-10 AT 04:15 PM (EST)
I would argue that "The Jury ALWAYS Gets it Right"
Consider... 1. The Jury (unlike things like "exile island and hidden immunity idols) was engineered into the basic mechanics of the game. 2. From the moment they walk in the door contestants know that if they reach the final 2/3 they must face the jury, it isn't just sprung on them... "Oh... By the way... We've been holding the most recent and upset players, the ones you stabbed in the back, here for several weeks and now, in order to win, you have to convince them "you da man"..." 3. One might argue that the Jury may be instructed to somehow leave thier feelings behind... OK, fine. Then please explain the melodramatics of the pre-vote Q&A session to me - can't? OK, I win. 4. So: Foreknowledge
+ Set-up
+ Emotional Foreplay
= A jury which will vote as much, if not more, with thier
hearts as thier minds - by DESIGN
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-10, 09:34 PM (EST)
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48. "Hatch agrees!" |
This is what Hatch had to say:
http://tvwatch.people.com/2010/01/11/survivors-richard-hatch-says-russell-hantz-went-too-far/
Hatch says. “I don’t think he (Hantz) played as well as I played, and I think the reason is because he lost some of the subtlety of the game and I explained that to him. I think he lost sight how he himself, while playing well, impacted jurors, his peers who then have to decide how he lives or dies at the end. And that’s a crucial part of the game.”Reflecting on his victory 10 years ago, Hatch adds, “Even though it was the first season and I really walked a fine line, I still had to consider and barely won because Greg Buis … told me — when it was 3-3 and his vote gave me the win — that it was almost my hubris that cost me the game. But … he respected my game and gave me the vote. Russell went too far and was too ‘in your face’ to the contestants. I talked to the camera, I talked to the viewers openly as the game is designed for us to do, and was cocky and arrogant … but I wasn’t to the contestants. That’s where you lose.”
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