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"Greatest Player Ever??"
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steve2011 4 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-09, 08:10 PM (EST)
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"Greatest Player Ever??"
with this whole talk of how good of a player russell is it got me wondering. So who do people think is the greatest player in the history of survivor.
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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Aruba 12-20-09 1
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? AvidRealityWatcher 12-20-09 2
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? michel 12-20-09 3
   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Aruba 12-21-09 8
       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? michel 12-21-09 13
           RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Aruba 12-22-09 48
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? goldtiger 12-20-09 4
   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? JessicaRN 12-21-09 5
   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Aruba 12-21-09 9
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? KuwabaraTheMan 12-21-09 6
   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? iltarion 12-21-09 7
       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Aruba 12-21-09 10
           RE: Greatest Player Ever?? garcor 12-21-09 11
       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? PepeLePew13 12-21-09 12
           RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Estee 12-21-09 14
               RE: Greatest Player Ever?? mindy23 12-21-09 15
                   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Estee 12-21-09 16
               RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Bebo 12-21-09 17
                   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? shaneperry 12-21-09 19
                   The Dark Half. Estee 12-22-09 55
       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? KuwabaraTheMan 12-21-09 20
           RE: Greatest Player Ever?? iltarion 12-21-09 22
               RE: Greatest Player Ever?? KuwabaraTheMan 12-21-09 25
                   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Aruba 12-21-09 28
                       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? KuwabaraTheMan 12-21-09 34
                           RE: Greatest Player Ever?? michel 12-21-09 36
                   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? iltarion 12-22-09 40
       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? dabo 12-22-09 38
           RE: Greatest Player Ever?? iltarion 12-22-09 39
               RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Snidget 12-22-09 45
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Snidget 12-21-09 18
   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? michel 12-21-09 31
       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Snidget 12-21-09 33
           RE: Greatest Player Ever?? michel 12-21-09 35
               RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Snidget 12-22-09 47
                   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? michel 12-22-09 52
                       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Snidget 12-22-09 54
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? munson 12-21-09 21
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Bebo 12-21-09 23
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? MissMyth 12-21-09 24
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? DoodleBug 12-21-09 26
   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Aruba 12-21-09 27
       RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Snidget 12-21-09 29
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? byoffer 12-21-09 30
   Worst Loser Ever! michel 12-21-09 32
       RE: Worst Loser Ever! Aruba 12-22-09 44
           RE: Worst Loser Ever! byoffer 12-22-09 56
 Everyone sucks. Jims02 12-22-09 37
   RE: Everyone sucks. iltarion 12-22-09 41
       RE: Everyone sucks. garcor 12-22-09 42
       RE: Everyone sucks. Aruba 12-22-09 46
 RE: Greatest Player Ever?? milf07 12-22-09 43
   RE: Greatest Player Ever?? Snidget 12-22-09 49
 NPR's take on Russell's game play Snidget 12-22-09 50
   RE: NPR's take on Russell's game pl... garcor 12-22-09 51
       RE: NPR's take on Russell's game pl... Snidget 12-22-09 53

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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-09, 08:57 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Tom Westman
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AvidRealityWatcher 202 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-09, 10:25 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Russel is by far one of the best players ever in my opinion, along with Richard Hatch from season 1, Rupert from Pearl Islands, and Earl. While Russel didnt win, he should have. He did what no other survivors have done. While I can understand the juries desicion, I do believe that Russel should have won. Natalies strategy is a wholesome one, but I have to ask the question?

Who is the fool? The fool or the one who follows the fool?

While Russel lied and wormed his way to the top, he also made no appologies for the strategy he was using, and made sure everyone knew that was how he was playing the game. If you know its a snake sometimes you just have to take its word for it. He also made assumptions that helped him to find the Hidden Immunity Idol.

Thats my Opinion.

ARW

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-09, 11:44 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Shouldn't we wait to see how Heroes vs Villains turns out?
Anyway, we'd never agree on a single player so I'd suggest determining a group of top players.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 05:11 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
>Shouldn't we wait to see how
>Heroes vs Villains turns out?

LOL...not really. A season where players will get ANOTHER chance to make the most of their SECOND (or do I dare say THIRD) opportunity???!!! In my opinion "Greatest Player Ever" has to win in their INITIAL season to get that title otherwise they are in the running for "Greatest Player NOT to Win."

I'm on the fence whether I'm going to watch this upcoming season...right now I'm leaning toward not.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 08:05 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Wait to see the cast.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 06:03 AM (EST)
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48. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Fair enough. If the complete cast is all former winners (yes even the ones who backed into a victory) then I'll sit back and watch.

If there are any former losers (or I cringe to say TWO-TIME LOSERS) then I think you'll know my answer for next season.

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goldtiger 2 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-09, 11:50 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
There have been some great players, but I'd have to go with Russell for greatest player ever. I couldn't stand the guy in the beginning, but he slowly won me over and I found myself cheering for him. He was pulling everybody's strings from the beginning, finding immunity idols with no clues, and he won the final immunity challenge to assure himself a spot in the final three. He controlled everything that he could control. Unfortunately, he didn't have control of the voting.

I laugh when players get offended and ticked off when they get lied to and backstabbed. It's a game. The goal is to outwit, outplay, and outlast. Manipulating people and doing anything that you have to to get to the end is what the game is about. Yet, every season we see people upset and holier than thou after they've been duped and voted off.

Russell was the best player in Samoa and possibly in the history of the game. I wonder if he's going to be on Heroes vs. Villains and, if so, if he will have any kind of success since the other players just spent the last season watching how sneaky he is.....

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JessicaRN 1070 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 00:34 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Will Russell be in the next series. I remember Rupert went back for the next one, although I don't think he did as well. I hope Russell does go back and I really hope we don't have Johnny Fairplay anymore.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 05:24 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"

I laugh when players get offended and ticked off when they get lied to and backstabbed. It's a game. The goal is to outwit, outplay, and outlast. Manipulating people and doing anything that you have to to get to the end is what the game is about. Yet, every season we see people upset and holier than thou after they've been duped and voted off.

Welcome to the Boards, Goldtiger.

Well said...especially when outcasts know that's part of the game coming in. With "game" being the operative word, what you will inevitably have in a "game" are sore losers and bitter crybabies on the losing end. For players like Russell they hope sore losers are a minority of the Jury or, in Russell's words, those who "took the game seriously" will prevail. But it didn't happen with this season's Jury.

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KuwabaraTheMan 47 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 02:46 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
I have to go with Todd. A brilliant strategist who never made a single blunder and gave the greatest Final Tribal Council performance ever.

Russell was a great player, but taking Natalie instead of Jaison will haunt him for the rest of his life. He's in the conversation for greatest non-winner, though, along with Rafe and Kenny.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 04:01 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
OUTPLAY is a third of the equation, right? Therefore, how can you take someone incapable of winning a challenge as one of the greatest players ever?
No way.
Russell is one of the greatest players ever, but he lost. Deserving or not, it still weighs against him. I think he wins if he takes Jason and Mick to the end. Totally foolish to take the little humble woman who plays the foil to the arrogant man.
One of the most predictable votes ever. The only suspense was that the editing made it look like a decent TC for Russell, making the predictable votes not quite match what we just saw in TC. I'm still trying to figure out what made Natalie better than either of the guys in Erik's speech. I don't remember him saying anything positive about her. She was weak? Is that what made her better? Still trying to figure that one out.
Holy smokes was she a bump on a log at the reunion. Now I can see why Russell called her a dumb@ss blonde. She looked all of that.
Best players? Brian, Tom, Yul. There you go.


>

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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 05:52 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"

>I think he wins if he takes Jason and Mick to the end.

Russell would need to thoroughly convince the Galus that Jaison was a whinny crybaby who checked out of the game long ago. That was made abundantly clear as the season played out during the episodes which made the straw poll go in Russell's favor. But not sure Galu saw the severity of that while they were out in Samoa. Also how would the voters REALLY perceive Russell cutting Natalie loose. A straw poll does not take into account what damage she could have done on the Ponderosa.

The straw poll I would have loved to see is if Russell allows Brett and Mick to compete in a fire building tie-breaker and Mick wins would Russell have recieved enough swing votes to pull it out??? Probably not...I think bitterness still prevails but it would have been interesting to see the results.


>One of the most predictable votes ever.

Without question. I was hoping I was wrong all along but it was a no-brainer seeing the Jury's reactions after every post-merge TC.

>I'm still trying to figure
>out what made Natalie better
>than either of the guys
>in Erik's speech. I don't
>remember him saying anything positive
>about her.

Other than the obvious stentch of sour grapes coming out of Erik's mouth, his speech was sheer proof that this vote was decided upon LONG before FTC even commenced. The juror's statements/questions were more about negatives they could throw Russell's way as a result of being outwitted, outplayed, and outlasted by the most solid and dominant player this season. A slamdunk example of backing into a victory.

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garcor 432 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 06:51 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
After last night, think that even a little bit of tact and humility from Russell during the season and he would have won. Jury didn't appear enamoured by Natalie, too many of them simply disliked Russell. Think the fact all but one of the large jury was from the other tribe was the reason for so many negative jury questions and comments.

Yul, Tom, Parvati, Brian, JT

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 07:05 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
LAST EDITED ON 12-21-09 AT 07:06 AM (EST)

Russell cannot be considered as the greatest player ever because he lost, period. His ego got in the way of what the right moves were to guarantee a win - either by taking Jaison/Mick or by toning down his jackass personality in front of the jury. Therefore, his name cannot be included in the likes of those who navigated the shark-infested waters and still won.

Brian and Rich were not very likable people but they did win, so they did something right to still be able to win, warts and all.

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 08:21 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
RussHell's jury strategy ultimately broke down to this: grab future voters by the hair, shove their faces into septic tanks, force them to eat the contents while laughing all the while, then say "Now don't you have to respect someone who can do that to you? Be sure to write my name down before the infections finish killing you. Here, have a second helping. I'm generous that way." When your definition of 'respect' is exactly the same as that practiced by major ganglords, you've forgotten the social component of the game -- and you've earned your loss.

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mindy23 1319 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 09:19 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
"Hero" players, IMHO, would have to include Tom and Yau Man. Even though Yau got blind sided, he did an incredible job up to that point. And should have won. But he came back to the survivor all stars and got voted out early, so hopefully, they aren't going to bring any of those people back. I agree that we don't want to see a 3rd time loser, OR winner, for that matter!

Rupert's best qualities were strength and personality. And he's won again and again, so let's not bring him back, either. And forget Jon-he's had more than enough chances to be stupid!

I'd love to see (can't remember his name) the guy who fell in the fire in Australia come back and compete again. If he's able-how old would he even be now? Some of these guys are getting up there, and might not even do that well this time around. THAT has to be factored in, too!

As far as women, I'd have to say Sandra Diaz. Would love to see Stephanie again, but this would be her 3rd time around, too. Without winning! Susie from Gabon would be interesting, too. And how about 'Ace'?? What a trip it would be to see him trying to play the game again without Sugar to manipulate!

But anyway, off the subject.

As far as I'm concerned, Russel H. definitely takes the title of 'Best Player EVER', whether he is on the next season, or not. No one in the history of Survivor has outplayed, outwitted or out-anything'd better than he. Just wish he hadn't been such a sore loser!

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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 09:31 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
He definitely took the Outbitch, Outwhine, and Outbitter titles. (And didn't have to pay a cent to get them!)
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Bebo 20880 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 10:46 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
While Russell played one hell of a game, he did a terrible job of handling the jury. Survivor All-Stars is the big example that comes to mind when they jury rewarded coattail-riding over gameplay. Russell should have realized that jury members vote with their hearts much more than their heads. In the end, they'll ask themselves if they can give someone a million dollars for beating them the way they were beaten, and this jury couldn't do it.

It was classic schoolyard - the bully beats you up for your lunch money while the girl stands by and watches but throws you a synpathetic smile while it's happening. Would you want to give the bully even more money after he's done beating you up? No.


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12-21-09, 11:13 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Hatch is the greatest player ever. cant remember any of the others.Russell just got out played. he's really kinda stupid. You cant con an lie to people an expect them to vote for you. He's just a big jerk who was out smarted by a so called "dumb girl". Another short guy with a big ego.
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Estee 55194 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 11:04 AM (EST)
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55. "The Dark Half."
Not one of Stephen King's best books, but...

Early this morning, the thought flashed: RussHell is George Stark. Or wants to be him if RussHell ever grows up, and could be thrilled if he could just resort to that level of violence whenever he felt like it...

Because I had a picture of him bellowing at the jury. "Oh why don't you just stop it and BEHAVE!"

Hold still and let me hurt you. Anything else is incomprehensible defiance against the natural order. To not vote for him as the winner is to overturn the way his world works: he inflicts and you surrender. He may not understand anything else. And so he stands and wails about the unfairness of it all: he did the slashing, so why won't they bleed?

And the true beauty of his game is that it can't win. He can't change: he doesn't see how change would ever be necessary. Bring him back for HeVil and he'll play the same way, potentially lose the same way...

...and never understand what could have gone wrong.

Here's my prediction: he'll be the next contestant to see major jail time. And his defense will be that the other person deserved it.

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KuwabaraTheMan 47 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 02:03 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Outplay is about more than just winning challenges.

I completely agree that he wins if he takes Mick and Jaison to the end. Russell's big mistake was not realizing how the Jury would perceive Natalie.

Tom one of the best players ever? He was a complete coattails rider who wasn't even the best player in his own season. He did nothing but win challenges. While winners like Natalie and Bob weren't exactly strategic geniuses, they at least showed an understanding of strategy. Tom couldn't even seem to spell the word. His 'concept of strategy' seemed to be to try and force ties.

Yul is deserving, but I rank Todd above him because Todd was able to control the game better than any other player, and he did so without any idols. Todd was a matter not only strategically, but also socially, playing the Jury better then anyone ever did.

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12-21-09, 03:14 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Tom rode coattails? Hahaha... that is a funny notion. Besides the fact he was the leader of one of the strongest tribes Survivor has ever seen, a role he only took out of necessity, not wanting that target on his back, you don't have to ride coattails when you win challenges.
Tom didn't know strategy? Whuh? Tom was always thinking strategically in the game. He was the one that kept Caren in the fold when the women had a chance to gang up on them, and he was the one who told Ian he was losing his hold on Katie and demanded Ian make it right. He made friends with Stephanie and made the move to boot Coby early. He then agreed with Ian to chance the tie to get Gregg out of the game and gain control when Gregg and Jenn were about to become the dominant alliance. That is still the gutsiest move ever made in the game of Survivor, and even if Ian thought of it initially, Tom still gets the credit for being strategically bold enough to take what was a huge risk.
It is always amazing to me how players who win challenges are then always underestimated strategically. The fact of the matter is Tom was a great strategical player who made virtually no bad moves. He had to be. Because he was a dominant force in challenges, he HAD to make bold moves to avoid getting booted the first chance people got. Even Ian constantly battled with the temptation to get rid of Tom the first chance they had.
Todd was a great strategical player, one of the best, but he was allowed to strategize behind the scenes while coasting, protected by not only his alliance but also by the fact he was no threat in challenges. I would say Tom and Todd are about equal when it comes to strategy, with maybe a slight edge to Tom. Again, Todd was never under the pressure that Tom was. Tom was forced to make a move that was bigger than anything Todd did.
Also, people might have noticed that Tom was WELL LIKED. In fact, except for Coby, he was pretty much revered. So, I don't see how you can say Tom didn't play a great social game as well. He was just as liked if not more so than Todd, and much more liked than Natalie.
And then, of course, when you consider the challenges, both tribal and individual, which is what I consider the other 3rd of the game, Tom blows Todd away, though I probably overstated it by saying Todd was incapable of winning a challenge. Todd, I believe, did win at least one challenge his season, and had the brains to win more.
I am not this huge Tom Westman fan, but that's how I see it with an attempt at objectivity. I have never put Tom as #1 on my list because he had Ian the entire way, who was also a great player. Tom would not have won without Ian. However, the same could be said of Todd, who also had a great player with him in Amanda.

>

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KuwabaraTheMan 47 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 05:57 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Tom gets no credit for taking a leadership role, because he was a strong older man. Those type of players almost always wind up in leadership roles. Yes, Koror may have been one of the strongest tribes ever, but I don't think leadership had anything to do with it. Tom, Gregg, Ian and Coby were all powerhouse players in challenges, while Ulong only had Bobby Jon.

I'll maintain that Tom never thought strategically, because it's clear that he didn't. It was always Ian thinking strategically, and he was the one who recognized all of the threats. Tom wanted to force a tie, which is one of the dumbest decisions any contestant has ever made. Luckily for him, Ian realized what an idiotic idea that was and changed things up without telling him (which shows just how much sway Tom had in his own alliance...none). Then, Tom was shocked when he found out that Ian had been gunning for him because the thought that a player would try to vote out their strongest competitor had literally not occurred to him. He was Coach before Coach appeared, thinking everyone else believe in his idea of taking the strongest to the end. I never saw much reverence for Tom outside of the final vote, where he was up against Katie, the biggest goat in Survivor history. Of course people are going to respect him compared to her.

I don't think Tom was terrible, but I also don't think he's in the conversation for top players. All he did was win challenges, and that's really not enough. At least three members of his own tribe were far better strategists than him, and he didn't even really seem to understand the game very well. I was probably too hard on him in my initial post, but I think he's not really worthy of being mentioned alongside truly great winners like Todd, Yul or Chris.

Todd may have never won challenges, but I think he was such a dominating player that it doesn't matter. Todd was the player that Russell thought he was, always keeping around the right players and voting out whoever he needed to. Todd didn't need to win Immunity because he knew there was no way that Amanda and Courtney would take Denise to the finals.

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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 07:53 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Tom didn't campaign and annoint himself leader of Koror. He lead by example and with his charisma most of his tribe gravitated toward him and more or less gave him the role (with the exception of Coby.) That's what makes his leadership role all the more impressive. Yes there were other power players on the tribe. But that RAISES his stock as a challenge stud and emerged leader. The fact he was able to achieve those accomplishments against top-notched competition confirms his greatest ever status.

Ulong was not THAT shabby. Stephanie was a strong female competitor and Ulong had arguably the strongest female challenger ever in Jolanda who was Anti-Darwined in episode 1.

If memory serves me correct the forced tie idea was formulated to spook Katie into the dreaded purple rock tiebreaker when she was contemplating a flip. It was more the case of stopping Katie from flipping as opposed to "Tom wanting to force a tie." Yes Ian pulled Katie aside to convince her it was not a good idea, but I recall Tom also pulling Katie aside to say the same...AND IT WORKED. Katie did not flip fearing the purple rock. Excellent strategy.

Tom was taken back when he discovered Ian was gunning for him because of the following:
When the F4 returned from the IC that Tom won he pulled Ian aside and said even though he knew Ian was his toughest competition he would NOT vote out Ian mainly due to loyalty but also he wanted to go up against the best. Ian reply to Tom with a dumb comment something to the effect that it was a good thing that Tom did win the IC. This got Tom thinking and after a little Q&A session he found out from Jenn that Ian was going to vote Tom had he won the IC. Why wouldn't Tom be slighted given the fact he would remain loyal to Ian and he was confident he would outplay and outlast anyone. Before Tom Westman "outwit" meant out-lie. Tom was the first player to combine leadership, dominance, and integrity into the title of Sole Survivor earning him the Greatest Player honor.

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KuwabaraTheMan 47 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 11:02 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
He was apparently a good leader, but anyone can appear to be a good leader when the going is good. When you never lose a single immunity challenge, of course things are going to seem rosy. I would also point out that he had to run the table on challenges. Had Koror lost any challenges, Gregg and Coby were planning to vote Tom out. They simply never got a chance because of how bad Ulong was. He benefited more than anyone else from Ulong's ineptitude, which allowed him to make it to the individual part of the game.

It's been a long time since Palau aired, but if my memory is serving me correctly, Tom wanted to force a tie and leave Katie out in the dark. Ian recognized that was an idiotic idea and pulled Katie aside without telling Tom, who was as surprised as anyone by the way the vote turned out, and only found out that Ian had told Katie their plans after Tribal.

The reasons that Tom were taken aback aren't really important. My point was that Tom never even considered that Ian was plotting to vote him out. Tom, like Coach, was delusional and thought everyone bought into his idea of the strongest going to the end. Ultimately, he's lucky things turned out the way they did, as Ian would have destroyed him in a Jury vote.

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12-21-09, 11:35 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
LAST EDITED ON 12-21-09 AT 11:38 PM (EST)

Kubawara, you have some facts wrong: The reason Koror won most of the challenges, at least the early ones was Tom so he cannot be blamed for things being good at Koror. He was the reason why.

When we first saw Ulong vs Koror, Ulong looked much stronger. Ibe, BJ and Jeff were huge, muscular young guys. The problem was that the tribe had mostly models and actors wannabee who weren't ready to suffer and they had no leaders.

Actually, it was Tom and Gregg who tossed around the idea of throwing the final immunity challenge to boot Coby and keep the more deserving BJ and Steph. Problem was Coby won that challenge single-handedly. Ulong was that bad at puzzles.

Tom and Ian both agreed to twist Katie's arm. Tom even added more pressure by saying that she'd never win the jury if she put Tom on that jury.

Tom and Ian had a gentlemen's agreement: They keep each other to the F3, battle it out there and the winner takes Katie to the F2. Tom was ready to honor that deal but not to keep Ian to the F2. Anyway, Tom beats Ian in front of the jury with Janu, Steph, Gregg, Caryn and Jennifer's votes.

The only thing I agree with you is that Tom was weaker in strategy than Todd. Tom said he didn't really know how the game worked and neither did Ian. They both relied on Katie, the true Survivor fan, for guidance.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 03:43 AM (EST)
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40. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
I don't really have to say much here because Aruba and michel did man the foxhole and say most of what I would have said.
I am only going to add that Tom did not have immunity when they agreed to force the tie, if necessary. Therefore, it was his butt on the line if it went to a tie, and it was NOT an idiotic move. Actually, Tom was strategically smart enough to figure out what the rocket scientist this season could not- the odds of picking the purple rock, no matter what they are, are better than ZERO odds of winning if you DON'T force the tie. Katie had already agreed to join with Jenn and Gregg to boot Tom or Ian after Caryn was gone. Tom and Ian basically strong-armed Katie back into their alliance. It was a brilliant play by both of them.
That was a bigger move than anything Todd had to do, so thats why I have that one area of disagreement with michel. I don't care how well versed Ian and Tom were when they started the game. All that matters is how they played it.
History has shown that it is more difficult to win challenges and win Survivor than it is to win none and win Survivor. Coincidence? Not at all. Unless you do a clean sweep, like Ozzy, it takes a rare combination of strategy and strength to do both.
And lastly, Tom felt betrayed by Ian because they were FRIENDS. Completely understandable. I hope they are still friends today because they are still one of the greatest duos we have ever seen.

>

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12-22-09, 03:08 AM (EST)
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38. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Whoever decided OUTPLAY means winning challenges?
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 03:19 AM (EST)
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39. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
That is my interpretation, Snidget. I never attributed it to anyone else.

Outwit- strategy
Outlast- social
Outplay- physical


>

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12-22-09, 05:46 AM (EST)
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45. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Um, dabo is a different small yellow bird.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 11:07 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Some areas good/great, some not so great verging on bad.

Good.

1. Figured out that if there wasn't an Exile Island they probably hid immunity idols somewhere, and took the time and effort to look.

He did seem to have a knack for working through the idea that they give clues, so they have to be someplace you could clue someone to. Being able to get in the head of the people hiding something from you often helps you find it. Too bad that puzzle solving thing seemed to be more of an idiot savant thing that something that translated to challenges.

2. Knowing when to play the silly thing and didn't hold on hoping he'd never need it. Sure he played one when he didn't need to, but it seemed a reasonable time to think he could be going. Better to play it than go out with one in your pocket.

3. Being able to pick a target that was someone that there was at least some reason people wanted them out now. So finding the cracks and using them rather than trying to make a crack when there wasn't one.

Not so good.

1. {voice=Wanda Sykes}You gotta stick with your lie{/voice}

If you are going to pick a career that isn't yours, stick with it unless there is a darn good reason to fess up to it.

Yep, there can be some instances when telling the truth is needed, but sometimes I think you lied or changed the story just because you couldn't keep track of what the lies were.

If you are going to base a strategy on lying, you need to be better at tracking what you are doing.

2. Picking which way to manipulate people.

There is something to making people feel safe so you can blindside them, but some of the ways you did it really came off as rubbing people's faces in it and setting them up for "yeah he beat me, but look at how he did it." bitter jury thing. Having an ego that says it doesn't matter what I do to people as they will bow down to my greatness tends to backfire at some point.

Maybe you really are a great nice trustworthy guy in real life, because you need to work on the lying scumbag thing. You haven't figured out where that line is between sociopath (everyone knows you are nuts and tries to avoid you as much as possible) and psychopath (they are shocked to find out you are nuts because until the arrest they would trust you with their kids and had you over to dinner).

3. Not realizing that you are the goat.

Villains that people like usually get turned on at some point and voted out. Once in awhile they win, usually because they are smart enough to drag some goat no one will vote for with them. You always want to be the lesser evil if you can help it.

Villains that people can't stand get taken to the end by their "followers" because hey if you are going to use your ego to be a big jerk well hey, I'll let you take the blame for all the carp that happened.

4. Challenges, I mean I get the not wanting the target so not always doing your best, but at some point people start to wonder why you just don't measure up. Surely some of the skills you showed in other areas should have translated to winning an occasional challenge. You may think actually showing real competence in anything is just a weakness, and the challenge whore often doesn't win because everyone wanted to vote them out days ago but couldn't but a win every so often makes people think you played all parts of the game rather than just looking for ways to hurt as many people as possible.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 10:07 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Good analysis, Snidget but I still think you give Russell too much credit with finding idols. I believe that he told the interviewers prior to the show that it was his plan to look for idol. They then realized it would be great TV so they put the idols in easy to find spots. Suppose the clue had been: The idol is buried 10 paces away from the tree (the bridge, whatever) then he never finds it without a clue.

Anyway, we know from Yasmin that she told Jaison about the clue and I still believe Jaison told Russell. Something the survivors simply can't talk about.

Russell was great at manipulating people but he was blind to interpersonal relationships. He lost the game when he couldn't see that Natalie was well-liked and kept Shambo over her.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 10:35 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
I dunno how much is put them specifically where they can be found for one player, or the that half the time the clues (at least the first couple) sometimes seem to be much less than helpful. I think there have been a few where people would have done better looking without the clue, although sometimes it is a reading comprehension issue and sometimes an over-thinking issue.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 11:25 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
The idols in Exile Island, Cook Islands, Fiji, China, Micronesia and Gabon could not have been found with all of Russell's efforts. The Tocantins one was the only one that was readily available to anyone.
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 05:50 AM (EST)
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47. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
I think you probably do need a different hiding strategy when the idol is out on the "island" where someone will have a day or so of uninterrupted time compared to when you hide it in camp.

Not sure how well someone can arrange 6 hours of uninterrupted digging time, for example, in the middle of camp without being spotted.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 08:07 AM (EST)
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52. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
True, but Fiji, China and Micronesia's last idol were in camp and you still couldn't find them without clues.
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 08:45 AM (EST)
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54. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
I thought the one in China (that was the one stuck to the arch, right...sometimes I forget) was labeled so if anyone had bothered to pull apart the set they would have known what it was.

Even when they hide them more than others, they want them found. No drama if no one ever finds it.

I don't know if anyone ever bothered to try to look before.

The ones in camp should be something you can uncover faster than one that is hidden, IMO, than ones that are on exile island where no one can see you are digging something up.


If you're a {Reality TV} juror, you don't have to put aside anything! You have the ultimate power of your own reckless, irrational whimsy! That is the absolute essence of the game. --Linda Holmes

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munson 1314 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 02:58 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Tom Westman. And it's not even close. No on dominated his/her season like he did.

And while we're at it, Boston Rob in All-Stars played the best second place game to date. Some blame his loss to Amber on the vindictive jury but he had no end game. Neither did Russell. Talk strategy all you want but this season just proved, once again, that Survivor is, above all, a social game.

I loved watching Russell this season and consider myself a fan but greatest player ever? Nah.

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12-21-09, 03:20 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
I'll join the Richard Hatch camp.

- He was the first - he had no one else's successes or mistakes to learn from.
- He was able to form a strong bond with someone who would never have associated with him if they had met outside the game (Rudy).
- He was able to do the dirty work but not be so contemptible that he lost his chance to still get jury votes.
- He provided good TV without alienating his fellow contestants to the point that they would want to get rid of him.


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MissMyth 352 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 05:07 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
J.T. Strong physical player, challenge winner. Social player, made friends with people he probably wouldn't have outside the game, never received a jury vote until the end when he swept the board.
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DoodleBug 5133 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 07:00 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
Russell lost the game when he talked to the jury. You can't be cocky and confident when you are asking them to give you a million dollars AND they are ticked off that you voted them OUT of the game. His game was brilliant all the way up to the end. He didn't win the social game, and when you're dealing with money, you HAVE to win the social game.

Was he the greatest player ever? Nope. He wasn't well liked except by Shambo, John and some of the viewing audience. I certainly liked watching him, but I knew he wouldn't win.

I'd count people like Rob Cesternino from Amazon (should have won), Tom Westman from Palau, Ozzy from Cook Islands (should have won), Earl from Fiji, and JT from Tocantins as some of the greatest players ever to play the game.

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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 07:13 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
>Russell lost the game when he talked to the jury.

You think???

Perhaps I am looking at your comment too literally but it would suggest that a majority of the Jury were either definitely voting Russell or leaning greatly that way before FTC. I don't see it. I truly believe jurors decided to vote AGAINST Russell long before FTC when he talked to the Jury. Way too much apparent bitterness to think otherwise.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 08:52 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
I think there was bitterness going in, but I think a different approach might have swayed at least a few votes if not turned it around.

The bow before my greatness because you are all so stupid and weak to do anything other than my bidding is likely to lose you any brownie points for game play.

Why give the jury a reason to flip you the bird with their votes if you don't really have to. It isn't like he had to prove to any of them he was really playing the game hard. But I'm the only person that took the game seriously and you are all idiots really only is an argument that appealed to John who also felt all of Galu was stupid idiots that lost him the game because they could not see the intelligence of handing John the game. (which is what a few of his interviews and confessionals seemed to be saying).

The only people that voted for him was Shambo who wasn't going to vote for anyone other than her buddy even if Russell was only her buddy because he needed a vote and John who also believed he was entitled to win and the reason he didn't was the stupidity of other people. Shared delusion can be enough to base a vote on, after all.

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byoffer 15808 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 09:52 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
I guess we can say he is most delusional ever. Even the day after he is still refusing to call Natalie the winner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymminYw2Ni4


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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-09, 10:16 PM (EST)
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32. "Worst Loser Ever!"
What he did on the island was part of the game. What he says there is completely disrespectful. You lost, you shake hands and say "good game". He's full of sh--
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 05:46 AM (EST)
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44. "RE: Worst Loser Ever!"
You are who you are WHO YOU ARE!

I have ALWAYS been steadfast in saying castaways on Survivor will show their true colors of who they really are especially when the chips are down and things don't go their way.

Actually the ones who say..."Golly Gee, that's not really me. I was just playing the game, or Wah Wah Wah, I got a bad edit...Yadda, Yadda, Yadda, Blah, Blah, Blah" are ALL full of sh--. If I had a dollar for every former Reality Show contestant who copped that lame excuse, I'd have as much money as on that check they presented Natalaie. LOL. So Russell has a HUGE fraternity of ex-players to join in that regard.

I agree what he did was completely disrepectful but what he said to the interview was not full of sh--; he was correct. If anything perhaps Natalie was full of sh-- when she said she was "surprised." Huh, What???!!! Either she had something in her eye during EVERY TC after the merge and couldn't see a Jury full of sore-losers or she is just plain ignorant.

On a closing note...did I hear the interviewer thank Russell for being a good sport??? Talk about being "full of sh--!" HaHaHa!!!!!

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byoffer 15808 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 11:55 PM (EST)
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56. "RE: Worst Loser Ever!"
Not sure I agree with your comment that a person has to reveal their true self on Survivor. It is a game, and I think there should be a way to play the game without necessarily being one's true self. One might bluff at the poker table, but that doesn't mean they are a flagrant liar in real life - they are just playing the game.

But after the game, Russell seems to be revealing his true colours. I think he truly is chauvinistic (can't imagine that Natalie beat him) and truly isn't a good social person.

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Jims02 7328 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 00:16 AM (EST)
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37. "Everyone sucks."
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 00:18 AM (EST)

I feel like Russell's loss was more of a statement about Galu than it was about Russell.

Galu is a tribe that is going down as chokers, a tribe that had a huge lead and just completely blew it. In my opinion, they're not quite as bad as Timbira last season (that would be hard to beat), but it's comparable. After being embarrassed as a team by Russell's gameplay, most of the Galu jury just couldn't stand to say he won the game.

Voting for Russell would just be confirmation that Russell beat them (which he did), and I don't think that someone like Laura or Monica can deal with that. It's much easier to throw the vote to Natalie, someone they can identify with more, so it doesn't feel like they completely lost the game. It's kinda like they chose to drag Russell down with them. Couple that with the ability to take the moral high ground and you have a bunch of votes for Natalie.

I don't think Russell played a perfect game, however. If you look at J.T. from last season, he was someone who broke deals with plenty of people who trusted him (Brendan, Tyson, Coach)... He even stabbed Taj for the sake of Erinn in the Final 4. The big difference between J.T. and Russell is that J.T. had more respect for his opponents and didn't condescend to everyone else.

I compare Survivor to playing a competitive game of Risk. Invariably, someone goes out to a lead and the other players start to worry about that player. But, if the player is cocky and is already counting their chickens, it makes the other players gun for them tenfold. I've been in games where the complete object is to prevent so-and-so from winning. I've been on both sides of that coin. Everyone has competitive moments like that. It's the "I don't care if I can't win, as long as he doesn't!" mentality.

What Russell underestimated was that component of human nature. It's something that Natalie from Big Brother this past season underestimated too. You can make big moves and be sneaky, but don't go out of your way to humiliate people with your strategic prowess. Russell didn't need to lead Brett along; he was already doomed. Russell did that for fun, which is ultimately what separates him from someone like J.T.

What I'm basically saying is that I think the jury members took the easy way out in the voting, but I also really can't blame them in a way. I probably would've been like John and voted for Russell, but it's really hard to say. It's human nature to want to take people down a notch.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 03:46 AM (EST)
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41. "RE: Everyone sucks."
Jims02, I don't think anyone will post a truer analysis of what happened than you just did.

>

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12-22-09, 04:28 AM (EST)
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42. "RE: Everyone sucks."
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 04:29 AM (EST)

Even Jeff Probst in his EW blog said that Russell deserved to win. But from what I saw, it was almost like Russell was going out of his way to dare the Galu's on the jury to not vote for him. Don't know that Jaison voted for him either, but that might be more a reflection on Jaison; or on Russell not telling Jaison he was next to go.

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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 05:49 AM (EST)
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46. "RE: Everyone sucks."
>Jims02, I don't think anyone will
>post a truer analysis of
>what happened than you just
>did.

I'll second Iltarion's comment.

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12-22-09, 05:29 AM (EST)
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43. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
sorry for the late post but I work weekends so didn't get to watch til this evening.I do think Russell is the best to OUTWIT, OUTLAST and OUTPLAY! I have been watching since the first season and I really think he played strategically, physically and even socially;Not in the simple, high school manner most people live in but he did play a social game in the fact that he manipulated people's thoughts and emotions with the outcome he anticipated so that it worked in his favor.Yes at first I thought what a ridiculous little man to be so cocky, but then amazement and admiration followed when things turned out exactly the way he predicted!And booyah to a man that finds a immunity idol 3 times and sometime with no clues to follow!Come on, the only saving grace from the outcome of the show was the fact he won the fan vote.Throughout this season although there were alot of strong identities in the cast, Russel brought the suspense for me...I never got so excited for one player for all of the seasons!And I'm sorry but except for the cockiness especially after it was down to 3, and the chauvinistic attitude WHAT WAS SO EVIL THAT PEOPLE LOVED TO HATE HIM?harmless stuff-its a game,not a popularity contest!last time I checked you dont have to be indigent or of a high moral fiber to be a contestant!
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

12-22-09, 06:14 AM (EST)
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49. "RE: Greatest Player Ever??"
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 06:14 AM (EST)

I have a hard time with the "he's totally different in his life it was just a game" given how bad a loser he has been in every single post game interview so far.

I get being disappointed, but he seems just as ego-maniacal out of the game as he was in it.

One of the things you have to remember with Survivor (and some other shows) is at the end how you treat others will come back to haunt you as those you voted out have to be able to write your name down for the win. If people know you feel they are all unworthy to even be on the show people do have a hard time getting their hand to write down your name.

Everyone can say that winning over the jury should never be a part of the game in Survivor or Big Brother, or any other show where the people you beat get to pick the winner, but the big difference I see between the villains that win vs the villains that lose is the ones that win can at least fake having some respect for the other people on the show and how they played the game.

You can backstab all you want, but if you want to win in the end you have to be willing to believe that other people in the world may on occasion need an ego stroke, not that the entire world is there only to shine your butt and are just lucky you actually allow them to exist in your presence.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 06:59 AM (EST)
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50. "NPR's take on Russell's game play"
http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2009/12/survivor_crowns_a_winner_offen.html

"In retrospect, it's fairly obvious what happened: Russell hooked himself to three people -- Natalie, who won; Mick, who's a doctor; and Jaison, who's a Fulbright Scholar -- all of whom knew that he would run around all season acting like a jerk, but figured if they remained in a nice, solid four-person alliance with him, they had a decent chance of getting to the end, and when they got there, the jury would probably dislike him and vote for someone they liked better. This is basically exactly what happened. This is how smart people play if they're confronted with an attention-hogging personality eager to align with them. And, in fact, the best way of all to do it is to be the person the attention hog feels least threatened by, because he'll be trying to make sure it's you he's up against at the end. Natalie, in short, played Russell perfectly, as it turned out, and understood how their alliance would be perceived."

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garcor 432 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 07:32 AM (EST)
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51. "RE: NPR's take on Russell's game play"
My problem with the NPR article is that it seems to presuppose that the only important part of the game is getting the jury vote. It's pretty hard getting that far.

Put it another way; replace Natalie with Liz or Ashley at merge and how different is Foa Foa? Replace Russell with anyone voted out before and consider the difference. Natalie made one huge contribution; but the Erik vote off was as much about Galu thinking they could use their number advantage to take off one of their own as it was about Natalie convincing them to do so. A unified tribe would have strung her along and then voted out Russell . . or Natalie.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 08:30 AM (EST)
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53. "RE: NPR's take on Russell's game play"
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 08:32 AM (EST)

You do have to get to the point you face the jury, and that is also important, but if you can't win the jury, you can't win the game. Everyone should know that. And thinking you can win the jury by saying you are the only one even worthy of being on the show and everyone else is worthless...I dunno anyone that can make that work.

Just like it doesn't matter how many times you get in the "red zone" in football if you can't make field goals or touchdowns. You don't get the win for having twice as much yardage if you never scored any points.

What, IMO, makes Big Bother and Survivor interesting is you have to figure out how to get people that you probably had a hand in screwing over in one way or another to say you get the win. That dynamic plays out differently than America chooses who wins or the judges who will have the same job next season decide who wins.


If you're a {Reality TV} juror, you don't have to put aside anything! You have the ultimate power of your own reckless, irrational whimsy! That is the absolute essence of the game. --Linda Holmes

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