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"The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"

11-04-05, 08:45 PM (EST)
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"The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Merger brings about such new dynamics and new clues in the editing and also some confusion

Links to our prior two threads if we feel the need to read past novels!

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/cgi-bin/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6084&forum=DCForumID2&omm=0

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/5982.shtml

The Recap

We saw Bobby Jon discuss a long way to go in the game and he was going to get a lot more banged up than this (referring to his boulder challenge sores)

We also saw Jamie commenting on Stephenie potentially bonding (with that shot of Stephenie and Danni)

Naturally Amy was shown discussing her going and Brandon stating that Gary and Amy deserve to be here maybe a little more than Bobby Jon

Deserving and Non Deserving

This was overwhelmingly present throughout the entire episode and is something that we have already touched up prior to this. It is coming to the forefront as a major theme and we already had picked apart those that appear to be deserving and those who are not. Obviously "deserving" casualties will occur (as evidenced by Brandon leaving)

Interesting observations

The entrance of Yaxha to Nakum camp at night was shown in conjunction to a snake entering the camp as well. (Do we have a snake in the midst?) Also they showed the crocodile (who many people attributed to Brandon with both their watchful eyes) retreat BACK into the water.

Gary"Go in there; act stupid for awhile" (Interesting strategy from Gary as well as the other suggesting about working hard and practically being their slaves)

The merger was probably the least cohesive merger in Survivor. It was full of tension (which was intensified by the lack of party surrounding it) and what is so interesting is that tribal lines were so visible but the irony is that the tribal lines were of the "twisted" tribes not the very first tribes form.

Quotes and Quotes and More Quotes

What a dialogued filled episode this was! A lot of talking going on and this episode really showed the direction the characters are heading even more than shown before.

Bobby"Can't be around Stephenie more than five minutes; I want to vomit. Can't be around Jamie more than five minues; I wanna knock him out"


Bobby"Jamie said something smart and I'm like dude, I'm going to knock your teeth right out of your head"

Brandon"One big happy family; that's not how it works"

Danni "They weren't that warm and friendly. Brandon, Bobby, myself and I think Gary too felt like we are slaves. We know our heads are on the chopping block and we are trying to stick around but you feel like an outsider"

Obviously the former Yaxha would have quite a bit to say about their "fate" Stephenie had a brief mention about them coming at night, Jamie naturally was extremely negative, Judd joined in on a bit of the fun later while Rafe, Cindy and Lydia attempted to be as neutral as they possibly can. THESE are the people that will be pivotal in turning things around should they choose.

and then we get a potential saving grace in the form of a hidden idol...............

Cindy "Finding the secret idol is huge for anyone; if you use it right, you can almost guarantee yourself final four"

Gary was made to be shown specfically discussing that he would never let anyone know he found it

This new twist with the idol is an event obviously which had to be discussed along with people's comments about it. The face time and commentary is not necessarily relevant to anything HOWEVER, if we presume that EVERYONE commented on it and only select confessionals and shots were shown with certain people, this is where we need to discern why those people and those shots were chosen.

Rafe had a big event in trying to find the idol. The symbolism between escaping from a hornet's nest along with being a part of the "Axis of Evil" was not lost. He did indeed run away from the hornets and he is certainly struggling with staying with his "alliance" "I'm done, it was a signal from the Mayan Gods that I'm not meant to find the idol" (or perhaps it is a signal for something else?)

Jamie "That idol could be worth a million dollars. I've been looking for it because I don't want any of the old Yaxha to have it"

Notice the difference in Jamie's confessional as opposed to what the others said about it. Jamie's intent is not for himself; he just wants to prevent the old Yaxha's to have it whereas the others looking for it that we saw want it for themselves. In past shows when there are confessionals about someone's purpose being for anything other than just their advancement, it doesn't work out very well.

Stephenie"The immunity idol is like cool and all but we are like starving" (Stephenie has reinforced AGAIN that she feels extremely secure where she is and is in power as well. Again, until the tides turn a bit on Stephenie, Stephenie's decisions are paramount with how this game is progressing)


Bobby Jon and Stephenie

We knew that their past relationship would have to peek out again. The animosity shown by Stephenie in earlier episodes and the verbalization of his distate about Stephenie from Bobby Jon has definitely cleared up any ideas that these two have any alliance with each other. There is no love lost between these two BUT in light of last season, Stephenie would be the only person that would understand Bobby's position:

BJ "Feel like we all worked hard and I don't deserve it any more than nobody else but I want that jury so bad"
Stephenie "I want you to be on the jury too cause if I'm on the jury I'd want to be on it with you to. You deserve to be on the jury though. I will do everything in my power as long as Brnadon doesn't get immunity, for him to go first."

Stephenie conf."Bobby Jon was just asking to help him out; told him I totally understand...... can't make any promises"

Obviously Stephenie was able to use her "power" or so we are meant to think as we know that Jamie would have gotten rid of Bobby Jon in a heartbeat. This was later confirmed in the conversation of Stephenie, Jamie, Rafe, Cindy, Lydia and Judd (which was heavily edited but the point was made clear)

Judd"So let's get this right, Brandon...." (then shot goes to Stephenie whereupon Judd repeats the name Brandon) and then Stephenie cuts in with "Brandon, Bobby Jon then Danni" We know as past editing has always showed us, this order will not occur and we specifically were made to question what about Gary? Again, editing is done for a reason and this scene was also heavily edited but it was clearly designed to lay out the order and also make us question where does Gary sit in all this?

Rafe "I'm not totally cool with that kind of attitude like we are in control now" (in response to Jamie poking fun at the tribe leaving to go fish)

Brandon "It's like we are in a war man.......we have to do the ##### work............"

Lydia, of course attempted to be cheerleader (I get Jan aura from her quite a bit; she is amusing to have around, brings up moral but there is nothing of substance to her) and it was very noticeable that the naming of the tribe and painting of the flag really was not something except a few enjoyed.

The separation of the two tribes was extremely evident during the fishing trip of Yaxha and the group discussion of Nakum.

Judd"Whoever catches the biggest fish goes home first"
Jamie"If we are smart we just keep knocking them off the way we want to"
Stephenie"Knock them out one by one!"

Cindy and Lydia during all this, never stated anything (except one time that Lydia said they were crazy)

Our narrator Rafe "Bashing people when they aren't around to bring group unity is not a pretty way to play this game" andSad realization.....am I a member of the Axis of Evil?"

Judd announces "Nobody there is out to save anyone's #####. They're all out for themselves, that's how it was in the old tribe" (a quick shot to Cindy was then done)

and Jamiein confessional "Here to protect our investment of blood and sweat and time to let those guys go home" and Danni tells us "Over at Yaxha it was positive; we had fun. Over here they complain all the time.... so negative...."

We heard a lot from Rafe, as usual, throughout the show. He attempts to be the welcoming party, he is seen talking with Yaxha members, he is consciously aware that this game can take an emotional toll on you and separating the game from the people is very hard to do

While I watched the scene on the boat while the four were fishing, it really evoked a sad but beautiful situation. These four are obviously very close, they are unified and in harmony so much so they want to "row back to their island" What a difference their scene was compared to the scene at the ruins

Brandon "We're awesome and everyone else sucks!"
Danni"Most horrible people I met in my entire life"
Judd "Lots of heads gonna be rolling today"

The camera pulling away showing them paddling on the boat with the sun and water was actually a very beautiful shot and I daresay that the two scenes in such direct opposition of each other were deliberately meant to be shown in that vein for a specific purpose especially in conjunction with the fact that Jamie and Stephenie both announced knocking Yaxha off one by one but later we hear from Bobby Jon "I just don't think, I don't know, I just don't think Nakum's fairy tale is gonna quite come true. They really think those six are gonna make it down to the final six but for some reason I don't think that is gonna happen" (some of us don't think it will either)

The Challenge

Certain challenges can tell us quite a bit as did this one. Those who competed and did not did hold a couple of surprises.

Bobby, Danni, Gary, Brandon, Cindy and Judd compete
Rafe, Jamie, Lydia and Stephenie did not compete

Jamie obviously did not make a good showing by not only not competing but also baiting Bobby during the challenge.

Jamie "Brandon and Bobby Jon know they have a chance of going home tonight; best athletes in the group. I think Judd wants to protect our lead. I look up to him for it"

Bobby "Thought we were one tribe

Jamie "You know it's not one tribe"

Jeff, we saw, immediately called Jamie out about the use of "our" with Jamie "Bobby Jon you knew you had to win immunity today and of course we were meant to see the immediate shot to Judd's fist clenching and then Rafe"I feel really bad; it's like saying six of us and four of you and like you guys are screwed, because, it's not, you're not........." and Stephenie"It's okay"

We are seeing the cracks in old Nakum's armor Judd tells Jamie to shut up, Rafe is struggling immensely with the behavior of his tribe, Cindy is telling us that Jamie has been told before about his mouth and it may around and get him (interesting that this was also said about Judd as well

Rafe"I feel crappy because I know who I want the people to win" (to Danni) and.......
Rafe (confessional) "Been asking myself why am I sleeping with the devil almost; today it crystalized I cannot respect myself and go far in this game with Jamie" (so it is said and so it is done, recall Jamie telling Rafe to "have an opinion"?)

Judd, Stephenie and Bobby Jon talking with Bobby stating "It's all over, give him the million bucks you know"

Brandon and Bobby Jon (and applejack can attest to this) had a wonderful and touching period together. After Jamie got done putting Bobby Jon on the spot about Brandon being on the chopping block, Bobby Jon awkwardly and quite endearing seemed to try and comfort Brandon and Brandon seemed so hopeful and imploring and their bond very evident even when they jokingly were crushing the corn discussing "beating each other in a corn challenge" the overall aura was very heartfelt between these two and it appears that the editing is quite determined to reflect the players out there with a sense of honor and dignity and fellowship

Although Brandon is not with us any longer I did find his statement ".....things get switched around, it'll change, something will happen and something's starting to happen" (obviously not for him but Brandon has made many narration commentary and this "gem" may have been there to show the start of something that will change)

The seeds are being planted firmly as we saw with Gary's talk with Rafe and Danni's talk with Cindy
Gary"If we do what's right, we vote for Jamie, integrity and what is right"
Rafe"Where does that leave us?"
Gary"Total power, because then there is nine"

Obviously an interesting exchange considering that Rafe is asking where it would leave "us" (much like Jamie's use of "our) This sixtet is not exactly in harmony. Rafe and Gary had the fondly remembered "minnow alliance" and it seems that Gary still has that tie to Rafe.

Danni "Do you what you need to" (to Cindy) whereupon Cindy replies "I'd rather hurt Jamie's feelings than Brandon's"

And so it goes with deserving and non deserving, playing the game to win or playing with a conscious (we saw Ian struggle with this firsthand and that issue was a big reason as to why he left at number 3)

The Tribal Council was filled with a lot of tension that was further pushing the ideal of deserving and not deserving and integrity and sportsmanship which we have all discussed.

It appears quite clear that a message this season is being sent on the mental aspect of playing this game now that brute strength vs weakness now has reached a plateau. People like Cindy, Rafe, Gary, Danni and Bobby Jon's intent is made clear and then we have the others who have given us another side to this (Stephenie, Judd and Jamie) Lydia, again seems to be just straddling the area that those who know they have no choice straddle

Face Time

Judd again was relatively low key for Judd which bodes well for now considering how high his arc was for awhile. The high arc that dips down but not invisible is fairly positive as is those who are not visible and build up their arc; ironically Jamie is being made to look worse than Judd is right now. As long as their is some continuity to their edit, they play a part in bigger things. Rafe is our continuous narrator, and again, if I felt a man wins this, he would be a strong candidate. Stephenie (as compared to other players) was also bumped down a bit but Stephenie is probably the most major character there regardless of her past. Bobby Jon has been elevated each episode (and quite frankly I am glad he is being shown to be more than cardboard character like last season and showing to be part of this game) Bobby Jon is all about the jury though and that will be his prize. Jamie's edit has elevated quite substantially and in an extremely negative manner (recall those past edits where the character became so unbearable their time there was shortlived soon thereafter) Lydia, while popping in now and again is not receiving anything now since she is not in danger therefore she is not someone who should win this. Cindy and Danni both have emerged more and we see that they are actually quite similar in some ways. Although neither of them get the "star" quality that Lydia gets when she is on camera, Cindy and Danni's edit gives off more substance in what they say and what they do. I still am not inclined to believe Gary is at the end game and will stand on this especially in light of the order that was told by Stephenie.

Fun Stuff

Jamie and the howler monkey yawning at the same time
Danniat the challenge was shown putting her hands down from the pot very slow and elegant as the tribe name was said in the music
Stephenie handing over the II and Danni handing over the old buffs
Jamie shown alone on the ruins with his unlit torch
Stephenie shown shaking her head in denial during the conversation of Jeff and Jamie about who is "our" ....
Brandon whispering to Danni that she is the sister he never had
Those in the challengeshown licking their lips

What I would like to know at this time from everyone is how exactly did you feel about each player during the episode in brief sentences


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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 Survivors double edged sword KObrien_fan 11-04-05 1
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Georgianna 11-05-05 2
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Whole Lotta Rosie 11-05-05 3
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Outfrontgirl 11-05-05 4
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Georgianna 11-05-05 7
       chuckle Loquatrix 11-05-05 12
           RE: chuckle emydi 11-05-05 16
               RE: chuckle Loquatrix 11-05-05 18
           RE: chuckle Georgianna 11-06-05 26
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... bdemoney 11-06-05 28
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Outfrontgirl 11-05-05 5
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Whole Lotta Rosie 11-05-05 6
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Loquatrix 11-05-05 13
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Flowerpower 11-05-05 8
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... mockingbird 11-05-05 9
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... emydi 11-05-05 11
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Outfrontgirl 11-05-05 23
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... bampote 11-05-05 10
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Flowerpower 11-05-05 14
       RE: The Merger and More-The Players... mockingbird 11-05-05 15
           RE: The Merger and More-The Players... michel 11-05-05 17
               RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Outfrontgirl 11-05-05 20
                   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... michel 11-05-05 21
                       RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Outfrontgirl 11-05-05 22
                           RE: The Merger and More-The Players... emydi 11-06-05 27
                   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Flowerpower 11-05-05 24
           RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Georgianna 11-05-05 25
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Surviette 11-05-05 19
 Music and ep. 8 applejack93 11-07-05 29
   RE: Music and ep. 8 mockingbird 11-07-05 31
       RE: Music and ep. 8 Georgianna 11-07-05 34
       RE: Music and ep. 8 Surviette 11-08-05 41
   RE: Music and ep. 8 bitchslap 11-10-05 45
 If VS could help? applejack93 11-07-05 30
   RE: If VS could help? mockingbird 11-07-05 32
       RE: If VS could help? applejack93 11-07-05 35
   RE: If VS could help? Flowerpower 11-07-05 33
       RE: If VS could help? applejack93 11-07-05 36
           RE: If VS could help? Flowerpower 11-07-05 37
   RE: If VS could help? VolcanicGlass 11-10-05 43
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... mimo 11-07-05 38
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... DRONES 11-08-05 39
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Flowerpower 11-08-05 40
 RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Rasta 11-08-05 42
   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... VerucaSalt 11-10-05 44
       RE: The Merger and More-The Players... applejack93 11-10-05 46
           RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Flowerpower 11-10-05 47
       RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Outfrontgirl 11-11-05 48
           RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Flowerpower 11-11-05 49
               RE: The Merger and More-The Players... smokedog 11-11-05 52
                   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... DRONES 11-11-05 54
           RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Bebo 11-11-05 50
               RE: The Merger and More-The Players... true 11-11-05 51
                   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Outfrontgirl 11-11-05 55
               RE: The Merger and More-The Players... emydi 11-11-05 53
                   RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Brownroach 11-11-05 56
                       RE: The Merger and More-The Players... emydi 11-11-05 57
                       RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Flowerpower 11-11-05 58
                           RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Whole Lotta Rosie 11-11-05 61
                               RE: The Merger and More-The Players... Surviette 11-11-05 63
                       RE: The Merger and More-The Players... michel 11-11-05 59
                       RE: The Merger and More-The Players... true 11-11-05 60
                           RE: The Merger and More-The Players... mockingbird 11-12-05 64
                               RE: The Merger and More-The Players... DRONES 11-14-05 71
 RE: Lying to the jury Outfrontgirl 11-11-05 62
 king kong mavs_fan 11-13-05 65
   Episode VerucaSalt 11-13-05 66
       RE: Episode Outfrontgirl 11-13-05 67
           RE: Episode Georgianna 11-14-05 68
               RE: Episode Outfrontgirl 11-14-05 70
                   RE: Episode Georgianna 11-14-05 72
                       RE: Episode applejack93 11-14-05 73
                           RE: Episode Georgianna 11-14-05 74
                               RE: Episode Georgianna 11-14-05 75
                   RE: Episode Whole Lotta Rosie 11-14-05 77
       RE: Episode applejack93 11-14-05 69
           RE: Episode VerucaSalt 11-14-05 76
       Music and Ep. 9 applejack93 11-17-05 78
           RE: Music and Ep. 9 Flowerpower 11-17-05 79
           RE: Music and Ep. 9 VerucaSalt 11-17-05 80
 Some ep 10 observations Outfrontgirl 11-18-05 81
   RE: Some ep 10 observations Whole Lotta Rosie 11-18-05 82
   RE: Some ep 10 observations Bebo 11-18-05 83
   RE: Some ep 10 observations fallingtogether 11-18-05 84
   Key Quote... PepeLePew13 11-18-05 85
       RE: Key Quote... applejack93 11-19-05 87
           RE: Key Quote... redbeard103152 11-19-05 88
               RE: Key Quote... mockingbird 11-19-05 89
   music and ep. 10 applejack93 11-19-05 86
 Episode 10 michel 11-19-05 90
 Rafe Loquatrix 11-19-05 91
 Ep 10 thoughts emydi 11-19-05 92
   RE: Ep 10 thoughts VerucaSalt 11-19-05 93
       RE: Ep 10 thoughts Loquatrix 11-20-05 94
           RE: Ep 10 thoughts redbeard103152 11-20-05 95
               RE: Ep 10 thoughts Goblin 11-21-05 96
                   RE: Ep 10 thoughts Outfrontgirl 11-21-05 98
                       RE: Ep 10 thoughts getting real 11-21-05 99
           RE: Ep 10 thoughts VerucaSalt 11-23-05 100
               RE: Ep 10 thoughts Loquatrix 11-23-05 101
                   RE: Ep 10 thoughts michel 11-23-05 102
                       RE: Ep 10 thoughts VerucaSalt 11-23-05 103
       RE: Ep 10 thoughts Surviette 11-21-05 97

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-05, 11:27 PM (EST)
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1. "Survivors double edged sword"
Always great stuff VS, great observations.

I find this episode interesting on a number of different levels. We again addressed the issue of sportsmanlike vs unsportsmanlike and it is getting clear who the unsportsmanlike survivors are.

The other theme that has carried weight is the "deserving" tag and how much weight that carries in the peoples decision to vote others off. Just last episode Brandon was in the majority alliance and chose to get rid of Amy who quite possibly was more deserving to stay than BJ who has played the game before. Now when faced with being the minority and the target, Brandon rails at his fate for not having the numbers and though he is maybe considered more deserving and more sportsmanlike, he didn't get to stay because he was the biggest threat in the minority alliance. This is Survivors double edged sword that cuts both ways. In both cases the majority opted to stick together and oust the "deserving" player.

But like Marquesas this episode is very reminiscent of the one where John Carroll and his Rotu 4 alliance was revealed to wake up Neleh and Paschal and it initiated an irreversible process in which the 2 ganged with the loose Maraamus and flipped the script on John's game. Here the lines were clearly shown and brashly exposed, but do Lydia, Rafe, and Cindy realize where they stand in the pecking order? Will we soon see the challenge that reveals a pecking order, and will that be the final straw in their own justifications, or are they playing so well and realize that the numbers will be right to make their move after one more survivor is gone?

If they do, the best time to flip traditionally has been in odd number tribal councils. However, this season I think the best time to flip it will be when it is at 8, only because the trio of Steph/Judd/Jamie don't have a solid 4th to their alliance and they are cocky enough to believe that Rafe/Cindy/Lydia will or should be happy with 4th thru 6th place no questions asked.

Therefore, I believe that leaves BJ as a big target for the next episode. He is still a physical threat, he maybe doesn't "deserve" to be back in the game, he is in the minority, and R/C/L would be better off with him gone from the game. I think this fits his edit as well, he has foreshadowed his own place "all I want to do is make the jury".

Then, Gary and Danni band together with Rafe/Cindy/Lydia and take out the biggest threat of Jamie/Judd/Steph and in my opinion it will be Judd or Jamie depending on which one does not have immunity at that time. Whichever of the two doesn't go the first time at TC would go the next episode.

That leaves a final 6 of Gary/Danni/Rafe/Lydia/Cindy/Steph with Steph being on the outside. If she wins immunity and/or finds the hidden idol, it could save her beyond this point in the game in which case Gary would be the biggest E6 boot target. From there it is anyones guess how the end game plays out, but Nash theory shows me that the 3 followers of Rafe/Lydia/Cindy have made their move at the right time and 1 of them should get into the final 2 and I am leaning toward Cindy at this moment. I agree with you VS on Lydia, her edit is screaming a final 4 finish but no further than 4th, maybe 3rd place.

All in all we haven't seen the last of the drama here. This ought to be a great finish!


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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"

11-05-05, 00:05 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Georgianna Click to send private message to Georgianna Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
2. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-05 AT 00:57 AM (EST)

VS,

Despite the fact that each of them disappointed me immensely (if one is not prepared to be moral, then one should not moralize ) ... the word that comes to mind is hypocrite ... I continued to like Rafe and Cindy.

I am, with each new Episode (and for the same reason as noted above), fast becoming ambivalent toward Danni and Gary. And that is a (to me) surprising improvement of my attitude toward the first and a (to me) surprising degradation of my attitude toward the latter.

Note: There is, I think, a perfectly natural explanation for the fact that Cindy and Danni "are actually quite similar in some ways" ...

I continued to admire Stephenie, Jamie, Lydia and Judd. Survivor is, after all, not a particularly fastidious game. And all four, I think, are playing it (to the best of their individual abilities) as "ethically" as it can be ... successfully ... played.

Although, if Stephenie sneers the word "gay" or "retarded" once more, I may shorten that list!

I continued to like, admire and respect Brandon. I think that he, Amy and Brian were the best of the lot. I'll miss him.

And I have come, this Season, to dislike (quite viscerally, in fact) ... the word B-Grade and the following quote attributed to Jeff Probst come to mind ... Bobby Jon:

Probst: “Bobby Jon is a... young, good-looking guy. Kind of plays that ‘aw shucks’ game, which I don't buy for a second. This guy knows exactly how charming he is, how good looking he is, but... when we met him, you know, he's really good at it. And it could really work. And that guy could go a long ways. Unless the other guys look at him, and say ‘No way are you sticking around, dude! You're gone!’"

Note: The merge "feast" (the "absence" of which was so loudly lamented) was, of course, right in front of Xhakum's myopic eyes: there was more than enough food on the table before them at the IC to founder twice their number. And I kept waiting for a "leader" (Gary, Rafe, Cindy, Danni or Lydia) to make the sporting, gracious, moral, profoundly practical (and strategically astute) suggestion that every deserving one of them forego the idiocy of standing about in the midday sun with a pot on his head and, instead, sit down to a convivial lunch.

Sigh ...


Of course, had I been Brandon, I may have declined the invitation.

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"

11-05-05, 01:18 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Whole%20Lotta%20Rosie Click to send private message to Whole%20Lotta%20Rosie Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
3. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
This was quite the interesting episode.

We obviously saw the final crowning of the axis of evil this week. But at the same time I think we may have seen the beginning of the allied response. Gary, Rafe, and Cindy all shared similar moral sentiments this week. After BJ realizes his dream next week the dominant theme for the next few episodes could be the do-gooders versus the evil-doers (I feel like GW ), Gary, Rafe and Cindy versus Jamie and Judd to the death. Regardless of who wins the battle, each may have lost the war. I have been searching for a story line for Rafe and Cindy all season long and this could finally be it.

I really like where Gary has gone over the last four weeks. He began as the early leader of the original Yaxha, then after falling into the minority after the merge, worked with Danni to target Blake, went along with the group to boot Brian, and then let Amy go because he didn’t have a choice. In the mean time he has played the moral conscience of the NuYaxha. During the trip to the pool party he cautioned his fellow members to play nice and in the most recent episode he gave the “servant speech” on the way to the merge. Now it looks like he will join up with the moral minority , Rafe and Cindy. Considering the current state of the evil-doers I am beginning to like Gary more and more.

Speaking of strategy, while Steph isn’t getting the edit of a Brian H or Rich she is playing an unbelievable game. Every time she does something that I consider negative she always seems to come back with something positive. Last episode we saw her laughing with Judd and Jamie and a part of the “axis of evil”, but at the same time she was making BJ’s “dream” happen, and playing to the “moral minority’s’ concerns. She even told Jamie to “shut up” during the tribal council. There is little doubt left that she is final two material, she is by far, the most complex player in this game. Can she win, does she deserve? I think she can/does. But as VS always says, it is relative to your opponent. There is still bit negativity to her edit, but does anyone else deserve to win?

Judd continued his “redemption” this episode, but only because the bar has been set so low. Jamie won the title of biggest “jackhole” this episode from Judd in a TKO. Still Judd’s edit is improving. I don’t think it has improved quite enough to put him in the final two as a winner or a foil, but I have him on my radar now.

It is the first time we have seen or heard from Lydia in several weeks, and I don’t think it was positive. Her attempts to rally the new tribe failed. Also, my first impression was that the negative antics of Jamie and Judd were amplified by the reaction of Lydia. This was in direct conflict to the reactions of Rafe and Cindy and, as I stated previously, Steph. At best Lydia is an island alone, at worst she is guilty by association.

Danni, is well, Danni. Once again we saw her a lot, but didn’t here much from her. She could emerge as a cog in the do-gooders alliance, or just continue to float under the radar. This is probably good for her as this will be the next battleground. That she was the third target on the NuNakum list solidifies her for a final six or better spot.

Once again at TC we saw a nice edit going from Steph to Danni. While these two maybe tied together I just haven’t seen anything from Danni yet that tells me that she deserves to win, especially against Steph.

Did I forget anyone? Oh yeah, BJ and Jamie. Gone and gone. It is too bad because I was really beginning to like BJ and hate Jamie.

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11-05-05, 01:40 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-05 AT 02:23 AM (EST)

Well that was a delicious post to start the new thread!
It seems as though you caught all the important comments too! Must be very time-consuming VS, and I surely appreciate it.

As to the assignment, I don't do so well at short sentences, but here are my current impressions:
Note: I do keep up with spoilers and I can't be a "pure" editing person because I am influenced both by how I see the editing and the game and by spoilers that seem potentially for real.

Steph ~ Nothing is good enough for people like you. (Aimee Mann) Sour. Pissy. Bossy. Whiney. Unaware of how she comes off. When BJ said that hanging out with her would make him vomit I spun back my DVR and watched him say it again because the sentiment made me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Has recognized that Judd is her ticket to the mil BUT THE EDITING IS HIDING THIS FOR NOW and will hang on to her Joisey bro while hiding her plan from her apparent F2 ally Rafe. Princess Steph probably wins this game and accepts her victory as her due at long last.

Rafe~ Conscientious, upbeat, sensitive, much too nice for any serious game player to take to F2. Won't win final immunity unless it's a quiz on the habits of termites and hornets in the wild. Would like to be in a nice guys alliance but is stuck with Steph who doesn't share that ideal. Won't start a coup against Steph and Judd by rallying Cindy and Lydia, but we are set up to hope it happens every week until it's just too late.

Lydia ~ Her whole strategy revealed in Ep 2. Work hard, keep up spirits, sells loyalty as the big thing she has to offer. Her strength isn't in leading but in supporting, and she will not initiate a coup against the Queen.

Cindy ~ For someone described as a loner, really cares about being part of a team. Smart, quiet, observant, but has failed to engage the necessary allies to win this thing. Hopes to hang in there while others self-destruct and then stealth it to the finish line. When push comes to shove, doesn't care enough about "deserving" to put herself in a precarious position.

Judd ~ One of two biggest arseholes to ever play this game. Given the "million dollar" quote; he is playing to win and not to make the jury. Basic strategy: add value to the team so they keep you to the merge, get in a majority alliance, cream the opponents, then rely on your arseholeness to get you taken to the F2 and hope (somehow, but how?) that you win because others respect that game. Yeah right! All good but the last step, reminds me of Mariano. Cindy says his attitude will come back to bite him: how about in front of the jury?

Jamie One of two biggest arseholes to ever play this game. Less cunning than Judd, apparently his dream coming in is to make F8. Number of actual allies: 2 at most (Judd and Lydia) and they are probably sick of him by now. We are set up to long for Jamie and Judd to get booted and Jamie will be going sooner than he expects which will be temporarily satisfying like Chinese food.

Gary ~ Totally skewed by the NFL history and hype. I'm rooting for Gary because he has been shown to negotiate well and stay in control. I feel though that he got screwed by the swap and the string of IC losses, same as Amy and Brian and so, similar to with Brandon and BJ, I get the "this dog is gonna die" vibe from Gary ... I really have no conviction as to when. Not until after BJ and Jamie are gone, not sure if Danni will precede him or vice versa, no better than F5 though. I think Rafe would like Gary to return to the fold but I think Steph is enamored of Judd now and she's not going to open the door.

Danni ~ nicer than I expected, strong spirit, can't stand the praying at camp but that's a personal bias, admirable in competition, smart, even a conscience. Probably will look back and realize that booting Blake lost it for her because he might well have won them that one IC they needed to come in even #s. Everyone she made a connection with in this game is already toast or getting crispy, and she's going to need immunity, and I expect her to go down negotiating pretty aggressively.

Bobby Jon ~ toast. Not really as dumb as he seemed the first time. Man of honor in general but lets his passions get in the way of playing. Getting a good send-off and of the two returnees he will be the more popular one after it's over IMHO, which is pretty ironic.

Overall direction of season ~ Despite all the thematics of good and deserving and sportsmanship, I have a bad feeling that the good guys lose in this one.

I read Jeff's comments and note what he plays up: the drama, the competition, the tough tough conditions and challenges. Harshness. Harshness breeds hard competition.

What does he not advertise: unexpected strategy, a big turnover where it's anyone's game (as he hinted in Vanuatu), a season of humor (Marquesas), a hero (Palau). Not selling sex, not selling romance, not talking about fatherly or motherly types or revering the elders or about the triumph of brains over brawn.

He's selling brute strength and endurance of brutal conditions.
He talks about whether an athletic woman can compete her way to the end. He hopes we will root for Danni and Steph as competitive women; he wants us to root for Rafe. He wants us to understand Judd as a "colorful character." We've seen Jeff look downright disturbed at Judd; doesn't that assessment seem way too kind already?

Ultimately I think we have a season where the editing's job is to keep us watching by tantalizing us with a possible revolt of the underdogs and the deserving, but unfortunately the reality is: that just didn't materialize when they filmed it.

The "good" players who will be left after the big dog threats are purged are rather passive in a strategic sense, like Helen and Jan in Thailand, whereas the "evil" players have Steph who came into this game with the image of a nice person and so managed to capture a very nice key ally in Rafe. Reminds me of Brian's key alliance with Helen. And then Brian of course takes Clay to the end and backstabs Helen, so really why wouldn't Steph take Judd and tough out whatever backlash that incurs?

In sum, the editing is not necessarily honest with us this season, I fear, because if we didn't have false hope the dynamic would shift we might turn off our TV's in disgust right about now.

I predict the jury will be even more pissy than usual.

Ed for typo and now I see the posts above, wonderful comments whether or not we see similar trends. Georgi, you mean because Danni and Cindy are CANCERS? Maybe Danni will end up like Tammy, although for awhile I thought she was Kelly W.

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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 05:05 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-05 AT 05:16 AM (EST)

Georgi, you mean because Danni and Cindy are CANCERS? Maybe Danni will end up like Tammy, although for awhile I thought she was Kelly W.

Yep!

But for the official record:

Other than that she also, reportedly, married well (although not nearly as spectacularly so), I see absolutely no similarities between Danni, Miss Kansas (Almost Miss USA) and Diana, Princess of Wales or Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall. Or the VIIIs (Henry and Edward) ...

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11-05-05, 01:23 PM (EST)
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12. "chuckle"
Sorry for my grumbling the other day. I was just being a typical Scorpio.

;P

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11-05-05, 03:16 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: chuckle"
I knew it!!! Me and fp (HB!! scar too)--are scorpios too
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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 04:05 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: chuckle"
LOL

Now I'm thinking "So THAT's why those two are some of my favourite writers around here, because obviously us Scorpios are the awesomest." <grin> Stop, stop it!! ;)

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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
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11-06-05, 10:19 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: chuckle"
Loquatrix,

Well, disagreement does take two, doesn't it?

So, in accepting yours, I'll offer my own apology for the indignation that certainly didn't become me.

But I just can't resist the observation that we both, after all, were but the innocent victims of our incompatible stars ...

Georgianna

PS: There is, you know, no such thing as a typical Scorpio

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11-06-05, 04:33 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Steph ~ Nothing is good enough for people like you. (Aimee Mann) Sour. Pissy. Bossy. Whiney. Unaware of how she comes off. When BJ said that hanging out with her would make him vomit I spun back my DVR and watched him say it again because the sentiment made me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Has recognized that Judd is her ticket to the mil BUT THE EDITING IS HIDING THIS FOR NOW and will hang on to her Joisey bro while hiding her plan from her apparent F2 ally Rafe. Princess Steph probably wins this game and accepts her victory as her due at long last.

Wow, OFG - I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with your take on Steph and Judd 100%. I do see them being the final two. Neither of them is really in any risk of being voted off soon (possibly Judd but I don't see that happening, especially before Jamie) and once they make the final six, they may just take turns winning immunity and protecting each other from eviction. I don't think Steph particularly likes Judd but I think she DOES see him as her ticket to winning this game.

Although I wonder if perhaps (just PERHAPS) Judd has a chance of winning against her in a vote, if they are the final two? Since she has played the game before and people may feel that Judd deserves it more. Since that does seem to be a recurrent theme this season as to who is more deserving.

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11-05-05, 02:21 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
After I posted I was thinking about theme for Guatemala and I think that while "deserving" and "sportsmanship" and being "gentlemanly" are all present, those themes are owned by the people who are losing this game.

This then brings me to the concept of "Darwinism" --which feels to me like the actual or ultimate theme of this season: Survival of the fittest. "Nature red in tooth and claw."
Adapt or die, and that includes the old moral compass.
When all is said and done, someone gets a million dollars and I aim to make sure that someone is ME.
Quote from Body Heat that comes to mind: she had the ability to do what was necessary.

I also want to share my older son's comment after the last episode, after pondering whether Rafe and Cindy and Lydia would do the "right" thing and rally against the bullies and then watching them back down and play what they believe to be a self-protective game. But is playing meek and mild a winning strategy?

He said, "when will these people learn that if you're not one of the wolves you're one of the sheep? And we all know how well it works out for sheep hanging out with wolves."

He also said, "but when it comes to wolves taking out wolves, the leader doesn't pick on the weakest in the pack. The leader goes after the next strongest wolf."

Anyway, I enjoyed his Survivor fan non-spoiler insight so I wanted to share it.

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11-05-05, 02:32 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Well done OFG, both posts.
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11-05-05, 01:57 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-05 AT 02:04 PM (EST)

I think you're right, and your son is right. Perspicacity runs in the family, apparently!

Even putting aside the fact that I'm still sulking terribly about Brandon, and thus it may well be that I am only licking my wounds when I try to assign This Season's Defining Quote to him, but this whoooole vibe of good versus evil, sheep versus wolves, doing the right thing versus the thing you need to do to win, the sportsmanship versus the sore losing, the rejoicing in camping together versus the whining, of how "gentleman" is a genderless concept...this whole business of those who are gracious in defeat AND victory versus those who are horrid whether they win OR lose, choosing whether to abide by rules of honour or not...

It's all feeling encapsulated, for me, in something Brandon said:

"It doesn’t say in the Survivor rules that you have to deceive, manipulate, cheat; you don’t even have to make alliances. You’re doing this, why? So that you can get closer to a million dollars. It’s almost like you’re selling your soul."

No, it doesn't say it in the rules. But this season it is a rule that if you don't, you're done.

The one thing that gives me hope for redemption from a Jamie, Judd or Steph win is the fact that Gary has repeatedly been remarked upon as lying and deceiving and doing what he needs to do to win in this season's idiom and yet he's managing to be one of the "good" guys while doing so. But unless there's a huge turnaround and Gary produces a miracle despite his numbers problem, or unless there's a huge surprise and the "sporting, honourable, deserving" theme actually produces a poetic against-all-odds winner instead of playing out as a sadly ironic backdrop to someone "undeserving" winning... then there will be no happy ending for Season 11.

<still whining>

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11-05-05, 08:30 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-05 AT 08:35 AM (EST)

AS always VS, Rosie, OFG, and Georgianna, your insights are right on. Most of my feelings regarding the show have already been much more eloquently stated by your observations, nevertheless, here's where I am...

First of all, I have stated before, that never have I seen SO much animosity between tribes. I think all the animosity that's there has generated a more profound emotional reaction from me, the audience. The acme of this animosity reached a peak this episode with the merge. Frankly, I have never been so emotional over an episode of Survivor...at the end, I felt almost like crying, as Danni indeed did. I definately identified with the good Yaxha tribe and vehemently depise the evil, bullying tribe of Nakum. Anyone related to the Nakum tribe is indeed in bed with the devil, and therefore I have nothing but contempt for each and everyone of them. The ONLY way they could possibly begin to redeem themselves at all is by realizing the error of their ways and fighting for the life of the others(Yaxha's) in exchange for the most evil ones there. In fighting for the life of the others, it would indeed advance their own games farther, for as OFG's son noted, they are sheep in bed with the wolves....

I did like Stephenie last year, and I do relate to her "win at all costs" strategy. But, imo, she has let greed and selfishness and many other poor qualities lead her down the path....she is so focused that she could be a winner that gets there at the total expense of all of the others, and at the expense of any good quality she may have previously had, whatsoever. In other words, I can see her winning, but she has ruined my opinion of her terribly. I don't like what I see, and I think there are better ways to win this game.

Her deal with BJ was pathetic imo. Letting him make jury and then toast.....I hate her now, it's as simple as that. Were she to get the boot, I would be one that jumped for joy. I don't see her as deserving at all....now.

Judd: Biggest bully of them all, and I don't like him one bit. He did participate in the IC challenge so I think he see's himself as vulnerable in the new Nakum tribe. Insecure, arsehole, bully. Did try to shut Jamie up though, which was seen as positive, IMO.

Jamie: Get him out of there now....another insecure, bully, jerk who, imo, doesn't deserve to be there at all. Spiteful, mean spirited, I just loathe him. Most two insensitive people I've ever seen, Judd and Jamie. Speaks before he thinks....I loathe people like this.

Rafe: I hate him. No backbone. Knows that he is in the axis of evil, doesn't like it, but doesn't do anything about it.....and now, the good guys are getting out, one by one. I hate this. Has properly identified the way he's playing the game, notes he hates it, but doesn't have enough in him to change anything or rock the boat. No respect for him, whatsoever. Sure, he may change latter, but, imo, it will be too late and one of these evil ones will win.

Lydia: No real feelings for her whatsoever. I know that she promised Gary her loyalty...will she be true to her word...I hope so, but I have my doubts. She has a soft spot for Jamie, I think, so that makes me not like her. Follower, I don't respect her game, and how could any of these Nakum's go along with the bully's of their tribe at the expense of good people.

Cindy: She's observant, but not willing to do anything about it....she definately won't win, she knows she low in the pecking order in the axis of evil, as she did participate in the IC challenge, why doesn't she switch now, before all of the people who could help her are out. She needs to take a stance and soon.

Danni: Very positive, realistic, aware....will save herself somehow. But, probably in the end, the evil ones will perservere.

Gary: DESERVING, imo. I'm rooting for him to somehow ingratiate himself with Steph/Rafe/Lydia again to perhaps get in and bust up those evil ones. Sure he turned his back on Brian and Amy, but he did it to survive, and HE DIDN'T LIKE DOING IT, and he had nothing but very positive things to say regarding them. I believe if he could have saved them somehow, he would have.

BJ: I know that BJ is not the brightest bulb on the tree, but as he was last year, and is this year, he's a very hard worker, and he tries so hard. He's empathetic to his friend Brandon, and his ability to relate to others is very endearing. I liked him last year, and I like him this year. He's willing to stick up to the evil ones, and he's trying as hard as he can to make the other losers(Cindy/Steph/Rafe/Lydia) see it too. I think it's all to no avail....he will be just another casualty from the axis of evil. I'll never rebound and like any of them again...one thing is definately for sure, he will be much more liked after this show, than the evil Steph, imo.

Sure, as I watch in my emotional state, I know that it's a numbers game, and I know that it's NOT a game to be played with emotion. But I have seen Survivor shows in the past where the winner did NOT stoop to these levels, imo, to get to the end. I don't like it, and I don't respect it, and I don't like any of the Nakum's that are there now.

Now as for comparing Boston Rob to any of the evil ones here, there is no comparison for me. Boston Rob was focused, non-emotional(except about Amber), but Rob had a fun and snarky spirit. He was the reason that the Chapera tribe was indeed the "happy Chappy's". Rob was a character, imo, Judd and Jamie are just big insecure bullies. I never thought that Robfadda had too many insecurities.

Well, that's where I stand now. I'm feeling drawn to the show, as I always am, but I'm very disappointed in the characters that they have this time.

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mockingbird 61 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 11:18 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Great posts and observations. I'll simply give my opinions-and they are always based on gameplay rather than likes/dislikes-and as average non-spoiling viewers see this game.
BJ-clearly we are meant at this time to be rooting for him. I was a little dissapointed that he didn't try to persuade Cindy to switch over to his side-I still wonder what kind of relationship he had developed with her at the old Nakum-and I hope he isn't letting Jamie's presence cloud his strategy.
GARY-My respect went up a notch. The editing showed that he at least tried to win Rafe over-and I like that he told his tribemates to "play dumb". I never cared for his idea of hiding who he is-it just seems silly.
JAMIE-Yes, he's in a strong alliance-but he is an idiot(though again-entertaining for causing so much of a reaction). He simply does not realize that IF he were to make final two-he lost many many votes because of his comments and behavior. No respect for his Game.
CINDY-I'm not sure yet. Did she blow her chance? There is still time to switch if she can get Rafe. I imagine she has felt more vulnerable on a consistent basis than any other player in the game since the switch. Has she ever been shown talking with Rafe of Lydia? It just seems she hasn't tried very hard. Also-in regards to editing and opening title sequence-I always seem to picture Cindy running-am I wrong about this? Have there not been at least a couple previews of her running towards the camera? ie-us?
DANNI-Another slight dissapointment in regards to Gameplay. It just seems that she could have exposed Cindy's position in her tribe and tried to bring her over rather than tell her to go ahead and vote the way she feels. Obviously she at least tried-and if she is a good strategist-it's odd that's it's been so hidden-but then remember Vecepia...Also, it's very likely that she could pull off a Kelly Wigglesworth immunity run-though Kelly's opponents were not particularly athletic.
LYDIA-Another player who is biding her time? I have no opinion on her-she simply isn't seen enough to read a strategy-let alone a personality. The fact that she's well-liked has been emphasized though.
RAFE-I really enjoy him-and perhaps he made the right decision. He knows his team-knows their weaknesses and strengths-and has sized them up enough to know his own chances. If he doesn't let his heart get in the way(like Colby and Ian did) he stands a good chance of winning-and he'd certainly have my respect as a Gameplayer(unlike Ian and Colby because of their hearts).
JUDD-Hugely entertaining in my opinion-my favorite for good TV-but I think, like Twila, Judd can only be Judd, and I would worry about his responses to questions at final Tribal if he were to make final 2. I believe his switch at the switch was a smart move-my only beef with his strategy is how he's looking at the endgame. If he softens a bit FROM THIS POINT-his chances of offending people are much less-since they will be on the jury. The question is: does he realize this?
STEPH-Gee, I hate to offend so many people on these boards-yet I have nothing but admiration for Steph's gameplay. I'm amazed that a previous contestant has been able and allowed by other players to have so much control. Do I like her? Well, as I've said, I watch this game to see who can outwit-not who will make me feel luvvy dovey. I think that with Jamie and Judd-Steph has aligned herself with two players who she can dominate and control--subtly. I don't think they know. I think she's looking at the endgame-and she knows what kind of final two partner she needs sitting next to her. She knows Judd-and knows how he will react to pointed questions and accusations. Jamie knows Judd as well(as he said before)-but Jamie unfortunately doesn't know Jamie. Steph is fresh out of an incredible game of loss(as is BJ)-and with that comes a steely determination at all costs to win. I can identify with that. I rather like this tougher, colder Stephanie. What I hate is whining-in anyone. I imagine those earlier edits were shown to remind us what she went through the first time-but somehow it just came off as whiny. But I don't find her offensive as others do. She's made 2 childish comments. How many off screen comments did either Rob M or Rob C make? Problem with Steph as above poster mentioned is she's humorless. This entire season is pretty humorless. I will say this though-it seems to me that when a Woman has a position of dominace in this game or shows ruthlessness and cunning- and it isn't hidden(like Tina)-she is never liked on the Survivor fansites. Jerry, Lindsay, Vee(towards end), and in particular-Amy from Vanuatu. I wonder why?
Like OFG-I think we are meant to believe something will change-but I don't think it will. I'm hoping Rafe will make a move. I'd really love to see another Marquesas.
M
M
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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 12:01 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
FP..I understand your dismay at Cindy and Rafe for not switching at F10, but was it really the best time for it? Esp. for Rafe...Say Rafe and Cindy would have switched at F10..They just become F5 and F6 to NuYaxha's 4..Cindy, well, she's there on NuNakum anyway. But she, like Lydia, is pretty much an island now.

But Rafe I believe has a F2 pact with Steph. I find it odd that Rafe never mentions any uneasiness about Steph..only Jamie and Judd. That could be because Steph is playing him and the game well (god, did I just say that) and consoling him. I think it was OFG or Rosie above (sorry) that compared Steph/Rafe relationship to Brian/Helen..I think that comment was DEAD on accurate! String him along until the end and take the evil one Judd(clay) with her to F2. Even if Judd (if he gets there) wins F3 immunity, he will take Steph with him because of the people that will be left (either Lydia or Rafe) he would be an idiot to pick either of them over Steph, the prior player...at least he has that argument to the jury.

I do think that Rafe Cindy (with Steph) will change for one vote and get out Jamie at F8...I do think they added Jamie's pre-show comment about Final 8 in wrestling for a reason.

BJ--he is just a good guy and is being shown that way...with a bit more game savvy this time..but not enuf..he'll go at F9 and make the jury.

Jamie--blech..I liked him in a weird sort of way until Ep. 8. FP, I do appreciate your comparison of Judd and Jamie to Boston Rob. BR def does not have insecurities as Judd (mostly) and Jamie do.

Gary--I still don't like him. You say he attempted to save Brian and Amy. I think he did what he had to do to SAVE HIMSELF and not much else. Now he is trying to use the "heart" card with Rafe et al to get another in. I do believe his real story(not the football lie) began in Ep. 8. He is the threat that I always thought he was...very Tom like. Steph will not let him get far. After Jamie is gone, I see Gary going next.

Judd-now he could be the F2 foil like Clay or he could undergo the same fate at Jamie will at F8. I'm not sure about this. VS, I would love to hear your comments about Danni's edit now...bc for me it's either a Steph/Danni F2 or Steph/Judd F2

Steph--FP, I hated her last year...and even more now. But she is playing a good game and one with tunnel vision for the money.

Danni--VS...I actually think I like her now...besides the praying and other things..I believe she could be the one "deserving good guy" to slip by..maybe even going on a Kelly W immunity run to finish. VS has your opinion changed after the merge as to how you see Danni vis a vis editing?

Cindy--In Ep. 8, she was stuck in a position of being the F6 bootee in either alliance. She decided to dance with the one that brung her..I don't think I could blame her too much for it...she will have some redemption when she helps to vote out Jamie at F8 but from the beginning of this game..she was victim of her personality and not forming the solid bonds you need to be in the majority.

Lydia..She is this year's F4 "sweetheart"

Rafe..Fp he's still my favorite He did what he had to do but he was shown as the leader of the Conscience group...I was yelling at my tv (B told me to shut up many times) "hy can't he win this thing--it's going to be Ian all over again." He is a very nice man very emotional and he is stuck playing this game...so don't be too hard on him FP. From the beginning of this series, I've said that he is F3 Close but no cigar..

Brandon...I almost was crying too at the end...but he really wasn't shown to play the game to save himself...true to his character...but I would have love to see him and not others Gary/BJ plead his case to Cindy/Rafe..if he would have done it himself, maybe it would have had more of an impact...although he may have but we didn't see it, but I think he just did not try too hard after losing II.




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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 08:00 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Just want to thank all of you for your kind words and my son will be tickled that you liked his analogy.

I feel like every post in this thread has excellent observations, even though not everyone agrees. There are different ways to see this stuff that all seem valid to me. It would be scary if we all responded the same exact way! I must add though that, like Flowerpower, I responded very emotionally to the Yaxha boating scene and their whole predicament. That's quite unusual for me to choke up over Survivor, can't really remember the last time the show made me sad in THAT way.

Re Boston Rob, I didn't think he was evil and he was FUNNY and a character. He was like Dr. Will in that (in confessionals) he would mock anyone who trusted him.

This reminds me of a favorite old anecdote my same son likes to pull out re Survivor and other situations:

"A woman sees a snake by the side of the road that's been injured by a car. She picks it up with a stick, takes it home, and nurses it back to health. One day, out of the blue, the snake up and bites her. "Why on earth did you bite me?" she asks. "I took good care of you!"

Snake says, "Look bitch, you knew up front I was a snake."

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bampote 83 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 11:35 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I haven't posted in quite some time, but I felt compelled to respond to this, partially because of your "assignment," VS, and partially to counter some of the other views that I've read on here so far. (Especially Flower... no disrespect intended, of course; I just found how strongly you felt hatred towards Nakum surprising.)

I should start by saying that I'm always the person getting frustrated when people start making friends and letting it interfere with optimal play, so this certainly shapes the way I view each episode. However, I should also say that my roommate, who is new to the show this season, repeatedly said, "If they (the "axis of evil") vote off Jamie, they're so dumb," during the TC.

Steph - No, she's not getting as good as an edit as last season, but I don't know if we're really supposed to see her as evil. She really wants to win this game, and she's going to do what she has to. Her ties to Jamie and Judd are a bit suspect, but under her strategy, they are the ideal allies. They deflect attention away from you (the strong former player) while still being great F2 partners. Also, I see no need to attack her over the deal with Bobby Jon... all he asked for was to make the jury! Overall, my generall impression is SLIGHTLY POSITIVE.

Rafe - I was amazed that Flower hates him... amongst my Survivor friends, he seems to be a pretty strong favorite. I don't see his failure to switch as particularly spineless as it is good gameplay; why join a new alliance and sit at the bottom when you have a strong place in your current alliance? I think it's also worth noting that he provided one of the few "bright spots" of the episode with his idol search. General impression is VERY POSITIVE.

Jamie - Yes, an absolute jerk, through and through. I got the impression that once his alliance has more of a leg up, they will toss him. General impression is VERY NEGATIVE.

Judd - Not too bad this episode, but his past offenses obviously still linger in the collective memory, I would think. A little bit of redemption in his criticism of Jamie. General impression is NEGATIVE.

Lydia - Kind of invisible, but I think she's getting a Jan edit. She won't make any sort of moves. General impression is POSITIVE.

Cindy - I just can't peg her. We generally don't see positive comments out of her, whether it be her grousing about the pool party or her venting at TC. However, I don't really view her as a negative character. General impression is UNDER REVIEW.

Danni - She just irks me. It's probably irrational, and I don't really have any way to explain it, but she just gets on my nerves. General impression is SLIGHTLY NEGATIVE.

Gary - I don't see how Gary can claim any sort of moral high ground. He's lying about his identity, and he's already betrayed someone who trusted him (Brian). And yet, he tries to go all father-figure on Rafe and say that voting out Jamie would be the right thing? It's only the right thing because it benefits Gary. General impression is NEGATIVE.

Bobby Jon - He was willing to sell out Brandon for his place on the jury, but wasn't really honest about it when confronted by Jamie. However, he is the only player who is standing up for himself when bullied by Judd or Jamie. General impression is UNDER REVIEW (but I see him as the next boot, so I doubt it matters).

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 02:10 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
bampote, your comments were also very astute! I know that the players in the Survivor game fare far better if they can keep their emotions out of it! Stephenie is indeed setting herself up very well, but I just feel she has sacrificied her integrity and any morals that she may have once had....and I know that other winners have played and won with their dignity in tact. I know this is a cut-throat game, but I, as a viewer and fan of the show, recognize that there is far more animosity this year between the tribes. This polarizes them, imo. It also makes me the viewer far more emotional regarding the show and the players. While it's bad to let emotions get in the way on the show, as a viewer I can be as emotional as I want....and certainly recognize this. It's indeed the editing that has steered me, the viewer, this way.

Great, sound comments, bampote!

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mockingbird 61 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 02:26 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-05 AT 02:55 PM (EST)

I want to add one other thing. I really feel that there was a strong hint or clue in the last episode that may have given away who wins the hidden immunity. Unfortunately, I have no idea what that clue could possibly be. Did anyone tape the episode? The entire time I was watching it i kept thinking that I was missing something secret. Thoughts?
M
Georgie, I sent you a private e-mail a few days ago. Did you get it?

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 03:35 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Great comments everyone. KOB_FAN, your analysis I think is right on. Flipping at 8 is the good thing for Rafe/Cindy/Lydia because why switch from Jaime/Judd/Steph (3 players you could beat at F2) for Gary/Danni/BJ who would simply beat you in the end? Now, if it is only Gary and Danni, at least you have the numbers. However, will Rafe move without Steph or will she follow him?
OFG, I loved your comments about Danni's allies all being toast or at least getting crispy. Can she make new allies? Also the comparison of Brian, Helen and Clay from Thailand with Steph,
Rafe and Judd is very accurate.
As far as our assignment, (I always like the questions you ask, VS.), here goes:
BJ: He didn't learn much from Palau. I didn't like it when he sold out Brandon for a spot on the jury but he is still a good guy.
Jaime: His ego was so bruised when Brandon humiliated him in the RC that he doesn't care anymore. Beating Yaxha is all that matters.
Gary: He's in control of his emotions and is always strategizing but he is playing against his nature by following instead of leading.
Judd: He has such a jovial personnality!? That's how Jeff presented him. Instead we have this jerk. Could it all be an act? What if he found a new way to play Survivor? He won't win but he is having fun all the way to F2 and an easy $100000. So why did he compete instead of eating? Maybe it was to test the competition for later on when an immunity is always nice to have.
Rafe: He's a nice guy, an intellectual who has been enlisted in a street gang. He can't win unless he wins immunity at F4 and F3 because no one will take him any further than
that.
Lydia: A cheerleader (not for the Dallas Cowboys) who had a role in getting Nakum on the winning streak they enjoyed. A chameleon whose edit has reminded us of Janet (early boot) Angie (the underdog that survived) even Rupert and his to good to be true edit. She'll finish either like Caryn (a pawn who isn't usefull anymore) or Jan (who was dismissable).
Cindy: To a lesser degree, she has joined Rafe as the conscience of her alliance. She wants to prove she deserves to be there. Good luck! She'll need some to win.
Danni: She is smart. She had an alliance with almost everyone in her original tribe. By listening to his plea and sacrificing one pawn (Blake) she got Gary wrapped around her finger and collected Brian and Amy's boot in the exchange. Will she have time to do the same on Xhakum? Last episode has put a doubt in my mind. She didn't emerge enough yet so if she were to win this, I think CBS is making a mistake in her edit.
Stephenie: She has learned a lot since Palau. So much that I'm wondering if someone told her about the Nash theory to explain her previous loss. She first turned to Gary for leadership but when he balked, she used the switch to assume it herself and not let anyone interfere. I thought she had to separate herself from Judd to avoid being isolated but what if everyone has Judd as their F2 opponent?
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 06:40 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
ROFL at "intellectual in a street gang!"

>>So why did he compete instead of eating?

No beer at the feast?

>>what if everyone has Judd as their F2 opponent?

Excellent question. This season I haven't noticed one confessional about a player's ideal F2 opponent. I'm sure they have such confessionals. My guess is they haven't aired them yet because Judd is the guy they all want. MAYBE not Rafe, not in his heart, but he has to have had the strategic thought.

Why not show them? WEll, it is early, and we should see some soon. But as I said the editing is encouraging us to believe a turnover is around the corner, and we would be a lot less likely to think so if we heard that everyone wants to take Judd.

Cindy has made two thoughtful confessionals about Judd and Jamie's behavior and speech coming back to bite them. I actually think she is contemplating a F2 scenario there although she could just be hoping they'll be booted before she is. Who can Cindy win against? Either of those two.

I think that none of them are saying that to each other but they are all kind of hoping to get there with Judd. If they are not hoping that, they will ditch him soon after Jamie because he is no longer needed for a numbers game. So the F7 boot should be telling. With Jamie and Bobby Jon gone (as I see it), 5-2 on tribal lines, do they target whichever of Gary or Danni is not immune, or do they pick off Judd as undeserving? That's test time.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 06:58 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Thank you for the feed-back OFG.
You're right about test time happening after a Jaime boot at F8 if it happens. Can I suggest that the voting pattern could tell us before the following episode if we are witnessing a real reversal or simply a boot to get rid of an annoying player? If the vote is 5-3 against Jaime we have our reversal but if it is 7-1 then nothing has changed for Gary and Danni.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 07:20 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I absolutely agree that a 5-3 vote would be revealing if Steph votes differently than Rafe. I wouldn't so much think that if the vote is 5-3 with Judd and Lydia supporting Jamie because they have known bonds of actual friendship with Jamie. They could both know Jamie is going and yet try to preserve his jury vote.

The reason I didn't spec on a Rafe-Steph split over Jamie is that we have been shown that Steph doesn't like Jamie AND she wants him gone. Understandable: she hasn't liked him from Day One and the only reason they are allies is the swap. He is not under her thumb and she can be sure he will try to pull Judd and Lydia together to off her when the numbers get down.

Back to editing: the fact we were shown Steph's desire to get rid of Jamie perhaps means that we are to see the Jamie boot as something positive that Steph accomplishes. IF Judd votes to keep Jamie then that may lead us to hope Steph and Rafe are dumping both the bullies.

OTOH a 7-1 vote would be unsurprising as we saw last episode that not even Judd condoned Jamie's mouthing off. It's like the Jerri situation all over again. The whole tribe is fed up. If Judd plays Lamber's part and isn't told how the vote is going, that would be ironic. I kind of think he would be less meek than Lamber in his reaction post-TC.

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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11-06-05, 10:27 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I think Steph is smart enough to go along with Rafe and Cindy and she will even tell Judd about the Jamie vote at F8. She has no real affection for Jamie and now she really doesn't need him..she does need Judd (as F2) and Rafe (her Helen) so I see it as a 7-1 vote to get out the annoying Jamie. I also think Gary uses the hidden idol at F8 and this gives Rafe/CIndy the extra oomph they need to take out Jamie..

After seeing the previews for Ep9, Gary has def. moved into Danni's position in pecking order bc of his II threat. So at F8 with a decision btw Jamie the A$$ and Danni the good girl that isn't as much of a threat as Brandon and BJ were, they will make their move. But I really do think it may be the only one and the Queen takes control back at F7 and ousts Gary as the II threat he is.

What happens at F6 is what I think is more interesting...Danni, Judd or Cindy?? A lot depends on II but I am starting to come to grips with Judd as the F2 foil and they all should realize he is the person to go with to F2...Steph def. has. But I am not ready to give up on Danni yet as being the winner...VS please enlighten me with your thoughts..

I want the golden goose now, Daddy!

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 09:12 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
This season I haven't noticed one confessional about a player's ideal F2 opponent.

Actually, OFG, Jamie has had a confessional noting what a great F2 opponent Judd would be! I think it was in episode 6 or 7.


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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 09:32 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
M

I taped the show. But I haven't had the time to watch it again.

And no, I didn't get your email. Or, if I did, I've mistakenly deleted it: I ran through the stack pretty quickly when I got back.

So, if you'll send it again, I'll be sure to look for it.

But soon, please. I'm not allowed near the presents at Christmas because I really don't handle suspense well ...

Georgie

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-05, 06:27 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LYDIA I felt disappointment. I expected Lydia to compete, as she has sat out so many challenges and this is one she might have won for herself.

RAFE Rafe appeared to regret the decision to opt out of the challenge. I was happy to hear Rafe's "opinion" and am now curious to see what he's going to do about it!

JUDD He moved up a notch bc he participated, which is good strategy, and bc he confronted Jamie. Judd's fish-catching
remark wasn't directed at an individual and I think HE honestly
thought it was just funny.

CINDY Happy to see Cindy participate as well as stand up for
herself. I feel as if Cindy actually likes Judd and it was
interesting to see the two of them stand out together!

STEPH While I can appreciate her strategy to a point, I feel
as if Steph is at the core of this new dysfunctional "family".

GARY I feel a bit neutral about Gary, but I feel as if he did
everything he could to save his alliance.

JAMIE I think Jamie is the only Nakum who tried to save Brandon, albeit bc he wanted desperately to be rid of Bobby.

BJ I feel sad that BJ felt he had to make a deal with the devil, but I understand he could not face finishing in the
same place as before. (He may have been thinking he will never
have another chance, but maybe Brandon will.)I just hope BJ
doesn't feel Steph has his vote for sure just bc of THIS deal!

DANNI Now I want for us to see what Brandon sees in Danni.
We know Danni is part of a great fellowship and I feel as if
I want Danni to win, now that I know Brandon will not!

BRANDON I was so looking forward to watching him crap his pants! BUMMMMER!!!! (Get it?!)

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-05, 02:39 AM (EST)
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29. "Music and ep. 8"
My god I feel like everyone except me is really perceptive when I read this thread! I mean, I notice the music but unfortunately not alot else!

Wow, episode 8 blew me out of the water - everything seemed...different. The music seemed more cinematic, the tension was almost too much - it just swung out in a different direction. For some reason the sound quality also appeared to change. I didn't know where to start so I figured I do it in segments (keep in mind that Australian TV might break up the episodes differently).

OPENING SEGMENT
Did you notice that when Yaxha walked into Nakum's camp that the music had LOTS of rattle-snake sounding noises? Somebody pointed out the shot of the snake when they entered and the music solidified this idea. A snake from Yaxha was slithering their way into Nakum - one Yaxha will probably infect the tribe with their venom (oh extended metaphors MB - very noice) - it also fits with BJ's comments about Nakum's plan not working out.

Also, in BJ's first confessional the music was quite devoid of melody - only percussion. When this happens the music is not 'coloured' by melody - it is takes away any distinct negative or positive feelings, and leaves the confessional and speaker sounding serious - what they are saying is quite true and observant. Funny, I never though I'd say BJ and Observant in the same paragraph!

SEGMENT 2
There was TENSION TENSION TENSION all through the music in this segment, some of it bad, some good but none the less it was not all smooth sailing for them.

The strings that underscored the scene of the new tribe trying to converse gave off a really odd feeling - the strings here implied sincerity, but the percussion did not. I think this was showing us the duality of ALL the contestants (no, Nakum is not the only tribe with a$$es on it - Yaxha was also negative toward Nakum. It takes two to make an us vs. them atmosphere).

A new adventure theme was also introduced when the hidden idol was revealed - the marimba was all over it. Implying a positive spin on the scenario (does this mean a POSITIVE person finds it?). The busy percussion all over the 'hunt for the idol' was very apparent - which gave it a great sense of anticipation and adventure. THis will be a BIG thing I think...

SEGMENT 3
Well in Lydia's one starring moment of the episode she got the Marimba - we are still meant to like her. I've said it before this season - the Marimba typically signals a positive experience. I think that this is Lydia's downfall, however - she is ONLY positive. She's charming, but not quite three dimensional.

Jamie's confessional in this segment had very rhythmic percussion with minimal melody - linking it to BJ's. These two have been juxtaposed, and we are meant to take what they both say seriously, as they are coming to heads very soon I suspect.

Rafe had an unfortunate 'musical continuation' experience in his confessional about looking - the underscore didn't change when he started speaking. This isn't ALWAYS a bad sign, but Brook had this all the time and we saw where she got.. I'm not worried about rafe, but it was interesting to note that he too can be overlooked. Luckily for him, though, the music changed when the wasps came.

The strings could also be heard for a large majority of this section - this tells me that what was going on was IMPORTANT. We constantly hear string underscores at times when sincerity, importance and simply STRONG occurences happen. This whole section - about the idol, about the tribe dynamics, everything was VERY VERY important - I think it will shape much of the rest of the game.

SEGMENT FOUR
In this section after the IC - typically the section where most of the scheming takes place, it was interesting to see that Danni got a variation of the 'positive marimba' so often seen with Lydia. The variation was that she had a Vibraphone with the sustain pedal ON, which gave her a rather etherial sound. Anyone whose heard a Vibraphone with a sustain pedal will know what I'm talking about - it sounds rather Godly or supernatural. It gave Danni a great deal of meaning.

One more thing - correct me if I'm wrong - but Cindy had one of the ONLY confessionals I have ever seen when we see the tribe walking to TC behind the confessional. It was about not knowing which way she was going - I don't know what it means, probably nothing, but am I right in thinking that this has NEVER 9maybe once or twice) been done before? The whole confessional was littered with shots of the walk.

I have to say that in this section the castaways really got caught up in themselves - they were all trying too hard it seemed like.

SO thats the end of my post, finally, for all those who've read this far!

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mockingbird 61 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-05, 03:19 AM (EST)
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31. "RE: Music and ep. 8"
I just watched Survivor Live and observed a few things. First of all-Brandon is an incredibly sweet and fun loving guy. A real winner. Tom from Palau was a great co-host-I really enjoyed his questions.
OK-I'll just list: hope these can help us a little.
WISHES he'd voted out BJ rather than Amy(but still really likes BJ.)
LOVES Danni
DIDN'T try to sway anyone even though he knew he was going home. Made no approaches-said it's not his way.
WHEN asked who he'd have liked to vote off said Steph BECAUSE she's in total control and top dog.
LIKED Jamie. Said Jamie didn't want to vote him off and even helped him try to find immunity idol. Said they'd probably have been alliance partners had they been in game together earlier.
TOM said that he, himself would have eaten the food rather than participated in the challenge.
JUDD was upset with Jamie for putting the pressure on him at the Im challenge.
JUDD seemed down-very low compared to when they were in the original Nakum.
SAID both tribes worked hard.
WAS surprised at BJ's "vomit" comment on TV because he said that BJ and Steph got along.
GARY is very religious-prays before challenges.
DID NOT know that Gary was a Pro Football player.
GAVE pecking order of new Nakum as(top to bottom) Steph, Judd, Rafe, Jamie, Lydia, Cindy.
HIS Group: he simply said "we're gone" and laughed.
Brandon seemed very innocent and relaxed. What a neat guy! I got the feeling that he had very little strategy, though. Oh,I forgot-regarding Jamie's comment that Brandon was going home(out in the open)-Brandon said he asked Jamie and appreciated being told. He did say Jamie runs his mouth but said that most tribe members simply said "That's Jamie". You could tell that Tom didn't respect Jamie's game-though Tom was admiring Steph's and Rafe's game. I don't remember Cindy ever being mentioned.
M
Georgie-did you finally get my E-mail?


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Georgianna 514 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-05, 06:26 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: Music and ep. 8"
M

I did, sir. Thank you ...

And a reply is ever so slowly wending its tortured way from my head to my fingers as we "speak".

Georgie

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11-08-05, 02:24 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: Music and ep. 8"
Re: Survivor Live
I, too, enjoyed watching Brandon on Survivor Live! I think I
laughed out loud a few times!! Brandon is very entertaining and
probably more mature and intellectual than most of the remaining
Survivors!
Just wanted to add this: Dalton pointed out that Steph's edit
is much different this time. Tom said something like it's the
EDITING. Brandon, bless his big, country heart, said "YEAH, BUT
THEY CAN'T SHOW WHAT YOU DON'T GIVE THEM"!!
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11-10-05, 06:37 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Music and ep. 8"
What a clever musical analysis! Totally makes sense too. Thank you, I'll definitely be paying better attention to it now.
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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-05, 02:50 AM (EST)
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30. "If VS could help?"
This idea isn't so much for VS as it is for everyone. I'm sure many of you are aware that a reliable spoiler has recently listed a possible long term spoiler that goes against what we have all been thinking for a long time. Many of us don't read the spoilers, however, and I'm not game to start discussing for fear of ruining someone's season.

I would like to talk about the editing in relation to this spoiler - to see if it is viable at this point in time, so if anyone has any objections please post them. I really want to talk though because I desperately don't want this to pan out.

VS, do you often read other spoilers? I just know that the problem becomes trying to fit the editing to the spoilers we hear...

anyways, just let me know...

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11-07-05, 03:24 AM (EST)
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32. "RE: If VS could help?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-07-05 AT 03:28 AM (EST)

Applejack,
no objections here. You've got my curiosity peaked, and by the way-why are we awake at 3 AM?
M
Love your posts-you've got me listening almost more than watching-I re-listen to the show after watching it whilst lying on the couch. Keep it up!

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-05, 08:07 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: If VS could help?"
Mockingbird - oh no I would never be up at 3am, I'm an Aussie, so 3 am is actually about 6pm here.

Well basically - I'd like to know (if yofox on sucks is right, of course) how the hell they would let Judd and Steph end up in the final 2 with editing as it stands? I just don't see it as a possibility and I think this may be one of the instances when a reliable spoiler (yofox often has info regarding steph) is just WRONG. The editing does not point to Judd making it that far - but I may be wrong. Can anybody please agree/disagree?

I mean, I'm trying to find a way to make it fit with the editing but I just can't, and it's been bugging me since TDT and pheonix changed their boot sheets.

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11-07-05, 06:17 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: If VS could help?"
Hi applejack! Great assessments of the score, as always! I just wanted to chime in regarding the spoiler. I think this season alot of rumor has circulated. There is only one spoiler that I think may have some credible information, but that person has not posted a bootlist. As for the boot lists, I really think that they are mostly educated guesses....just my 2 cents...

I would love to negate or support one of these lists with our editing champions here!


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11-07-05, 08:11 AM (EST)
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36. "RE: If VS could help?"
Well, I find it very hard to believe that VS and all our collective thoughts could be wrong, FlowerP. Not one person has once proposed a steph/judd f2.

I would HATE for it to happen - I've been psyching myself up for a woman to win all season (they are always much more satisfying winners, I believe) and even a hint that this might not happen is sending me insane!

And lets hope so, about the bootlists being educated guesses.

I'm going to stick to my editing guns and say that the winner comes from steph/danni/rafe/cindy - Judd just cannot be there. I've paid such close attention this season and I will be MAD if it's been in vain.

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11-07-05, 08:23 AM (EST)
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37. "RE: If VS could help?"
Oh aj, not to worry! When it comes to spoilers vs. VS, there are no worries! I'll take what VS and company have to say any day!

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11-10-05, 04:21 AM (EST)
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43. "RE: If VS could help?"
FWIW, I think it's a mistake to try to fit the editing to the spoilers.

For one thing, not all sourced info is posted. More importantly, as I well know, sources can get it wrong.

One of the reasons Veruca's thread is such a great spoiling tool is that it remains faithful to its roots. Looking at editing with a blind eye to spoilers, then comparing that information with the available sourced info, gives a more complete (and perhaps accurate) picture.

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11-07-05, 11:26 AM (EST)
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38. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
This episode was interesting, yet disturbing and disappointing at the same time. The theme of deserving vs. non-deserving (similar to good vs. bad sport) was emphasized with the subtlety of a jackhammer. (Lots of interesting insight from everyone on this.) At your request VS, here is how is felt about each player:

Brandon: have to put him on the top of the list, because he is the top. VS--you mentioned that Brandon has come to represent the audience (i.e. he is our eyes), and I felt like I was voted out this last episode. He is definitely someone I have come to feel very positive about. Good sport, good heart, good player, great person.

BJ: I liked him last season, and like him more this season. Plays hard but tries to do the right thing. (He is uncomfortable "ending someone else's deam.") Despite the agressiveness in challenges, I would have to agree that he is indeed a gentleman.

Danni: I also feel positive about her, although not quite sure why. (Maybe because Brandon thought so highly of her??) She seems to play the game not just hard but smart. And she also seems to be having fun.

Gary: Finally we get to see more from him beyond "the lie". Interesting to see him reach out to old tribemates (Rafe), but not leave his "more deserving" new tribemates behind. He participated in the challenge, apparently voted for Jamie, and went fishing with his former tribe.

Cindy: I don't understand her, but I also see her positively. She participated in the challenge--not sure if this was because she felt vulnerable or because it was part of the experience. And her negative comments about tribe-members expressed what I felt.

Rafe: I sympathized with his feelings on being part of the axis of evil, but by not participating in the challenge and deciding to eat instead, I found him to be heading towards the non-deserving camp.

Judd: After the brutally unneccessary attack on Margaret, it seems like they are making some small effort to redeem him here. Participating in the challenge was a positive, especially since I don't think he participated because he was doing "his part for the team," rather it seemed he expected all his allies to participate. Interesting that in the beginning he was part of the scene that spoke negatively about the new tribe members, but then also told Jamie to stop taunting BJ during the challenge. I still view him as the howler monkey--just maybe a nicer howler monkey?

Lydia: Where is Lydia? She seems to be tagging along with anyone that will accept her. She's happy to be part of the majority alliance, but doesn't seem to be thinking beyond that. And she no longer has her "role/function" of keeping her team member's spirits up since they are no longer competing as tribes. Slightly negative since she seems like such a passive player.

Steph: It's all about Steph, isn't it? Her comment about taking food over immunity any time showed a certain level of arrogance. She's very comfortable in her position. Perhaps too comfortable after all the whining she did earlier on? I view her as non-deserving.

Jaime: Ugh--bad sport, rude, negative, arrogant. Willing to let someone else (Judd) do the work while he feasts and is stupid enough to admit it. Definitely in the non-deserving camp.

This last espisode was tough because it really seemed to set up the non-deserving vs. the deserving theme--but logic dictates that the non-deserving will come out the winners. I'm not sure if I want to watch that....

Sorry not so brief...

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39. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
What a week

I'll answer your question first.
What I would like to know at this time from everyone is how exactly did you feel about each player during the episode in brief sentences

Cindy-I'll start off with her because she really has me intrigued. Her character has taken a decided turn since Margaret left. She seems more focused and determined, trying hard to prove to her alliance that she is with them all the way. Is it possible that she has let go of the past conflicts with Judd? Remember Judd's comment to Cindy about her being as good as she thinks she is, or something like that. Her past association with Margaret has her at the bottom of her alliances pecking order. I believe that she has been waiting for an opportunity to flip the script. If that happens she will be a key instigator.

Lydia-Putting her second, lest I forget about her again I just don't have a good impression of her. She is just sort of there. She is not going to be leaving anytime soon as there are bigger fish to fry. She is your classic UTR player.

Rafe-The image of him feeling guilty about their alliance and how Jamie was acting was greatly off set by the fact that he himself was eating and not participating in the alliance. He is certainly our Ian of this season. A gentle soul, who as the game progresses, is weighted down by his conscious and incapable of sepearting the game from his own personal feelings.

Judd-This merge episode was very revealing in regards to him. On one hand he is shown making fun of his fellow tribe mates and on the other hand he is shown as telling Jamie to stop antagonizing BJ. I sense a little internal conflict from him. In terms of editing, you hate him for being a jerk , yet you are nodding in agreement with him as he chastizes Jamie. The dicotomy is apparent.

Jamie-He wants BJ gone for no reason other than he just doesn't like him. He thinks that Judd would make a good F2 because of his mouth yet it's Jamie's mouth that's getting him in trouble. His edit continues to be very negative and someone you can't wait to see booted.

Gary-He is one cool customer. We know that he's a former NFL QB, yet we have seen nothing of his strenght. Why? He has been playing this game very close to the vest, as we can tell from his confessionals, which are only about himself and not his relationship to any of his tribe mates or the dynamics.

BJ-BJ's game has not changed one iota from last season. He struggles with booting people out whom he likes. His quote of wanting to make the jury to Steph labels him an early jury member.

Steph-She may be one of the most interesting Survivors in the history of this game. A lot of her true character was really fleshed out. She doesn't really have a connection to BJ this season yet she used her influence to save him. Maybe this is something she feels that is owed to him. She remains very focused on the game and has surrounder herself nicely within her alliance. She is definately a long term player. The editing has given her a great deal of depth. We've seen things from her this season that were not shown or highlighted all that much last season. A lot of snarky comments and at times whinny. That is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of longevity.

Dani-I've paid particular attention to the comments made about her in this thread. One thing I've noticed about the comments made about her thus far is that people are neither to high or to low on her. The positives aren't to positive and the negatives aren't to negative. A nice even edit. Like Steph she is well insulated by the men on her tribe, sound familiar?

Is EPMB telling us through editing who are the best candidates for winning this game?
IMO, he is. Gary, Dani, and Steph are all showing the traits of a winner. They are very focused on the game while keeping the personal out of it. Even more importantly they are getting the most even edits. Not to high, not to low. They, like everyone else, has some conflict but that is not their primary story. This is especially true with Dani and Steph. Gary is a special case because of his on going lie about his former life. This was highlighted early on and has slowly faded from the storyline. It will pop up from time to time but that is mostly because it can't be avoided, because it is such a unique circumstance.

DRONES

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11-08-05, 06:33 AM (EST)
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40. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-08-05 AT 06:35 AM (EST)

Great thoughts there, Drones. I like how you noted that Gary is a special case. I think his semi-pre-show celebrity has effected his edit. Through it all he seems quite focused, and not being one in the axis of evil, gives me, the viewer, a glimer of hope that perhaps a deserving player could win it...(I am well aware of where he stands in the editing thread though!)

Anywho, Mr. Das Mole let me borrow this graphic for the thread! I loved it!


Thanks so much to Das Mole for his graphic! I love how they are all sandwiched in between Jamie and Judd!


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11-08-05, 03:42 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
<What I would like to know at this time from everyone is how exactly did you feel about each player during the episode in brief sentences>

First of all, I love this thread! Secondly, although I'm an avid Survivor fan, I don't really try to figure out the editing. I just love to watch, and then guess what will happen based on game theory, not on the editing. Therefore, I'm probably a good sample of the non-editing fans out there.

Here goes...

Danni: I really like her. She's attractive, athletic, and seems like a good person. She's done well in the physical portions, and has shown a good grasp of the social elements of Survivor. I'm cheering for her, although the numbers are definately working against her.

Bobby Jon: I was indifferent to him in Pulau, but he's really grown on me this season. He tries hard, but isn't always successful. He means well, but is rarely eloquent. Ultimately, I think he'll be gone sooner rather than later.

Gary: I didn't like him until the player swap, but respected how he set aside the original tribal lines to join up with Danni, Brandon and Bobby Jon. The big lie doesn't bother me: several ex-Survivors lied about their occupations.

Rafe: I liked him from the start. He seems like a good person who understands the social aspect of the game. I was glad to hear him express doubts about being on the Dark Side, but was annoyed that he failed to act on it.

Cindy: I didn't like her early on. Maybe it was the Seabiscuit comment, or the howler monkey, or the fear to go swimming with the crocs. Then I started to warm to her, especially when she commented on Judd and Jamie. She's considering making a move, but I suspect that she'll wimp out.

Lydia: Seems like a really nice person, but I don't like her at all. I can't stand UTR players. I can't stand coattail riders. I don't expect her to make any kind of strategic move in this game.

Stephanie: Loved her in Pulau, can't stand her in Guatemala. I was sick of her pity party in the beginning, and now I'm sick of her smugness now that she has the numbers. I'm hoping she falls victim to a Marqueses-style flip.

Judd: He's obnoxious. He's loud. He's a bully. I felt sorry for him early on, but now I can't wait for him to go home.

Jamie: Least favorite Survivor in Guatemala, one of the worst ever. (Robb from Thailand still takes the prize) He's got so much going for him: he's young, athletic, and good-looking. He understands the game: he saw Steph as a threat, and Judd as an F2 foil. Then he goes out and makes a complete ##### of himself time and again.

It's probably no surprise that Danni/BJ/Gary are my favorites, while Steph/Judd/Jamie are dispised. I guess I'm a victim of the editing.

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11-10-05, 12:06 PM (EST)
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44. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I am so glad to see a lot of discussion especially in light of the assignment I gave all of you. I want to address just a few items

I do not "read" spoilers, I confine myself to the editing. However, it would be unrealistic for me to assume that spoilers do not become part of this thread at times and if I go into the voting thread or a videocap thread, ultimately I cannot avoid what is posted (I value all the posters thoughts so I like to read ) However, as VG so kindly and astutely noted (and something I usually state every season) fitting spoilers to match editing dilutes the purpose of what we try to do here and information that is brought out is not necessarily accurate. My thoughts after episode one are purely based on the editing and my thoughts from then on were based on the editing.

That is not to say that editing can't misdirect us However, there are patterns that usually occur every season and the characters and their traits help identify long term players which we have been on track.

I did not post this week as I wanted to see what everyone had to say as this was an extremely important episode and I see very strong opinions this season!!

Stephenie was identified very early on as a final two foil; there was no question she was destined for the end game with her edit and I still believe that. We know with final two players that one has to be somewhat marginally a better pick as winner than their opponent as the GENERAL audience needs to feel somewhat satisified. Stephenie, at this point (despite the fact that I do not find her edit horrific but notably more negative than last season) would probably on win against Jamie, Judd and potentially Lydia. Since Lydia's edit does not stretch to the final two for me then Stephenie really could on win against the two men but could lose against just about everyone else.

Regarding Danni Unless I see a clear change in someone else's character, I do not switch midstream and thus far there has been no clear changes. While there have been bumps in some of the characters (Judd bumped down a bit in negative, Jamie bumped up in negative, Cindy's expansion and so forth) I still will continue with Danni.

The fact remains that after episode one, I (and many others) felt that a woman would win this season and I still continue to feel this surrounding the editing. Therefore, only Danni, Stephenie, Lydia and Cindy are winners based upon the season's story.

Lydia as we discussed has the clear markings of utilized until discarded, Cindy's role has expanded but I found earlier on that Danni's edit was more palpable to me and I would hesitate to change. Stephenie has the markings of final two foil from early on and unless and until it is obvious that those contestants whose edit is WORSE (generally speaking) than hers, are fleshed out as final two definitively to me, she continues as a final two foil.

Editing changes because the themes and contestants change; we don't always identify the winner but we cut away at the misdirection and misleading characters early on and are normally right on track! This is why I love our thread and why our posts and observations do not require information from other areas and I want to thank VolcanicGlass for pointing this out

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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11-10-05, 10:42 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Sorry for introducing the spoiler VS, but I musn't have made my intentions clear...

As you and VolcanicGlass have said - trying to make the editing fit the spoilers is like trying to shove square pegs in round holes - it's very difficult, futile and often doesn't work. BUT, it does help to VALIDATE spoilers. If for example, spoiler X predicts outcome A - we can use editing to determine whether or not outcome A is a viable option and thus refute/support the findings of spoiler X.

That is all I wanted to do - question the validity of this spoiler using the editing as the testing tool. I think it's important for us to consider all options here, and this was one option I wanted to investigate. If I had merely suggested that I thought the outcome would be A we would discuss it in relation to the editing as we would any other notion.

I probably shouldn't have attached the 'spoiler' tag to it, but all I wanted to do was TEST the spoiler - in no way did I think, "Oh well, that's the ending, we might as well try to find out how the editing is telling us that".

As far as I am concerned the spoiler in question doesn't hold much editing water - but I thought we might be able to theorise how it may be possible (still keeping an open mind of course).

As FP has already stated - your posts, VS, mean more to me (and many others) than spoilers EVER could, and although I do read spoilers I (try to) put them out of mind when I get into this thread, because I am primarily a creature of speculation and don't think anyone can hold all the answers to one particular season.

Anyway, to make up for it I've done what you asked in your last post and I'm posting my thoughts on each player in ep. 8 (as you may know, this week has been bad for me so I'm sorry it's so late but I just didn't have the time)...

Gary - he's alright. He's smart and good at the challenges but I do feel he's not very good at deceit.

Danni - she's obviously a lovely person. I really like her and I think she's smart. Her looks are a little off-putting (i.e. the skeleton).

BJ - he's just as big a hot head as jamie. He has a temper but he comes off looking nicer than jamie because her calms down quicker. He's got too much testosterone.

Lydia - she's annoyed me a little in ep. 8 because she was so quiet (not HER fault, but still). I still like her from before, but it wore a little bit thinner this ep.

Jamie - hate him. He's obviously very young and doesn't behave at all like an adult his age should. He learns like a child.

Judd - he was better in ep. 8 though I still think he's arrogant. He seems to put himself in important positions all the time, even when he doesn't fit them (i.e. the peacemaker).

Stephenie - to tell you the truth I have nothing but admiration for steph (it doesn't mean I LIKE her). She's a very strong woman who has the game around her little finger.

Cindy - my personal favourite. She's sweet but also a fierce competitor. I appreciate that she can keep her mouth shut to the other players but still lets us know what she thinks.

Rafe - I like him alot. He's obviously very self aware, and very down to earth. You can tell he genuinely cares about other people.

There we go, hope it's not too little too late.

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11-10-05, 11:12 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Well put, AJ!

The editing, especially how our experts interpret it here, constantly validates and negates spoilers and speculation. It's what makes our boards so thorough and so much fun! We all know that I'm hooked!

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11-11-05, 06:43 AM (EST)
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48. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
The quote that struck me tonight was when BJ said Steph is starting to take control of the game and that she has a "million dollar" smile.

Steph told Judd that if he found the hidden idol he would be pretty much a shoe-in for F4. He didn't find it.

I know I'm not as good at reading the editing as you all and I realize from the above posts that I must lack the ability to see what the GENERAL audience that VS has mentioned finds palatable in a winner.

From what the editing has shown me of Danni at this point in the game, I'm not rooting for her, I don't much like her, and I won't feel satisfied if she wins. I have not been sharing her experience. I have mostly seen Danni as an OBJECT, a barely visible object except for the ribs and the big hat. If she is up against Steph I'll just be thinking that no one good is winning this season. I'd almost rather see Steph win for playing the best steadiest game although I think she is personally obnoxious.

Who is the editing making me want to win? Rafe. Then Gary. That's it, now that Brandon is gone. I'm a woman and I'm not even rooting for a woman to win this season. If I had to pick a woman to win it would be Cindy, definitely. Lydia, I dislike intensely.

The point of this rant being that apparently I travel to the push of a different button, so to speak.

*this is why I don't watch a Survivor finale without a bottle of wine ever since Tina beat Colby. The F2 depress the hell out of me and then the one of them I hate the most wins. Except for last season, when I only hated Katie and thank god she lost.*

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11-11-05, 08:35 AM (EST)
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49. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
this is why I don't watch a Survivor finale without a bottle of wine ever since Tina beat Colby....

OFG, I enjoy every show with a glass of wine! Last week it was particularly helpful as it was such an emotional show! There are always some major disappointments with this show because as it progresses we really come to recognize sides of ourselves in there!

Last night I was just sad watching it because I knew that it would be BJ that walked the plank. The thing I liked about BJ was that he had the ability to move on, to empathize, to say what he meant(so eloquently, no less). I was so upset when I thought about how it COULD've ended up. He had 2 peeps in front of him in the pecking order and they both got immunity....at least the editing lead us to believe this....I think EPMB and company really liked and regarded BJ. As always he had an extremely graceful exit. He just strikes me as an honest, hard working man who one could call a real friend and ally....and GAWD knows he sure is easy on the eyes!

Last night I felt like Steph was cocky and arrogant. We see her starting to hone in on Jamie, she doesn't like him. While Steph was shown to be arrogant, it made me feel good, as all of a sudden I'm thinking ....no way she'll win this thing! And then when BJ forewarned the evil twins about her, again I got the feeling that someone else is going to win it! And what a high that was AFTER last week! I hated how she "begged" for the food with Judd.

Gary was indeed very serious last night, BUT HE NEEDED to be. He rises to the occasion and does what has to do to get beyond. I like him! He really loathes Judd, smart that he didn't vote for Steph and expose himself, not that it matters. From the editing last night, I wouldn't be surprised to see Gary win the IC next week...I'm rooting for him.

Danni, to me she is the one that's shown as the golden girl, doing the right thing, staying true to the ones she's with. I do like her and am rooting for her and Gary. She's got a long way to go, but as we've seen she's very active behind the scenes. I want to SEE her work her magic....if she has any stops to pull out...

Believe it or not I was empathetic toward Jamie last night. I thought it was huge on his part to sacrifice his point in the line up for others....at least he made an offer to redeem himself which I do respect. It showed to me that he identifies how he has acted and is trying to make amends. That's a good sign for him, just hope he doesn't revert back...I felt as though his editing circle was now complete and so he can go now....his story is done....I for one am very glad to see him rectified, forgive, forget, and move on! He's toast this week.

Judd, definately still feels vulnerable, that's why he participated in the first IC last week and why he's out there looking for the HII. Judd needs to wake up and smell the roses, but he must have as his backup plan getting to the F4 and then taking control of the game with an immunity run...I was shocked that he had BJ eat with him...happy that he chose him, but felt like he was fattening up the pig, so to speak.

Lydia, she's getting arrogant too. Rafe, if he says he's going to change this game one more time and do nothing....but hopefully he could do nothing because the two targets got immunity....I'm a little more hopeful for something to happen with him.

Cindy, she's in the same catagory with Rafe. She's under the radar but is well aware of her line in the pecking order...I think?

Next week is going to get good!

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smokedog 1885 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 11:45 AM (EST)
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52. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-11-05 AT 11:48 AM (EST)

>While Steph was shown to be arrogant, it made me feel good, as all of a sudden I'm thinking ....no way she'll win this thing!

I'm interested to see if she is doing this on purpose. Much has been made about ideal final 2 partners like Judd and Jamie. Well, I think Steph herself is an ideal one - she is acting a lot more selfish and aggravating than the Palau version of herself, and she could be seen by a jury as 'undeserving' because she had her chance last season (the Lil - Outcast argument).

So I think there is a chance that she is being kept around with this in mind as well, although the editing would lead you to think otherwise. Or she consciously is acting like this to be taken along to the F2 by someone else.

Just my $0.02, maybe I'm giving her too much credit.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 12:57 PM (EST)
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54. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
...she is acting a lot more selfish and aggravating than the Palau version of herself,...

...Or what we were shown. We did see glimpses of this when she was crying to save herself re: Palau

DRONES

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Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 09:31 AM (EST)
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50. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
The quote that struck me? "From now on, you're lying to the jury."

Out of the 8 remaining players, 4 were showcased as liars last night:

Jaime - We were shown the lie he told to his alliance about Gary, claiming that Gary had told him he was voting for him instead of with him. Mr. B (my non-spoiler-biased observer) immediately thought that his gesture was a self-preservation ploy and that the motives weren't nearly as pure as he claimed.

Judd - The immunity idol is totally on the ground. Claimed during TC that he hasn't lied.

Gary - Mr. "Hawkins" also claimed to be lie-free.

Steph - Bobby Jon tried to stay in the game while pointing out to folks in her alliance that she would lie to their faces. Also shown lying to Gary about not being the target, even when he told her to look him in the eye.

Does our final 2 come from the Liar's Club?

We were also shown a couple of viewpoints on lying:

Cindy - Said during TC that she believes everyone will lie at some point during the game. This tells me that she would be less likely to cast a revenge vote against someone who lied to her, since she expects it to be part of the game.

Rafe - Questioned the motives behind Jaime's contrite willingness to give up the food during the RC. His confessionals show that he recognizes that even people in his own alliance could be playing him, but I also get the impression that he would use that against them if he's on the jury.

Other thoughts:
- Judd's puking on the shelter was such a non-event. Typical preview misdirection, trying to make it look like Judd's position in the tribe would be threatened by the act.
- Could Judd be trying any harder to curry Steph's favor? Reading her the immunity clue, inviting her to the feast. An obvious bow to the leader and key decision maker. Yet another nail in the coffin for Jaime's plan of a Jaime-Judd final 2, since we've been clearly shown that if Judd has to choose between Jaime and Steph, he'll stay on Steph's side.
- Could Gary be trying any harder to curry Steph's favor? He tries reminding her of past alliance ties. More telling, he throws his vote to Cindy, since he will not vote against Bobby Jon but does not want to threaten Steph.
- Was Danni's vote against Steph a piece of a bigger plot? After all, Gary has shown his loyalty to Steph by refusing to vote for her. Could this have been a move to give Gary just a little more wiggle room to try and get them both in the door with the majority alliance? Or was it just another throwaway vote by a minority alliance member who has given up and has no shot of making the end game, no matter what some spoilers might be saying? Add me to the list of viewers who currently sees her and thinks, "Do something, damn it!" Maybe she's biding her time to make a move until she feels like she can gain from it, but given how low the numbers are in her alliance, she's quickly running out of time. After all, if the pagonging continues and Gary has immunity again, she's gone.


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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 09:53 AM (EST)
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51. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Jaime - We were shown the lie he told to his alliance about Gary, claiming that Gary had told him he was voting for him instead of with him. Mr. B (my non-spoiler-biased observer) immediately thought that his gesture was a self-preservation ploy and that the motives weren't nearly as pure as he claimed.

I don't think Jamie lied about that at all. I just think he's a paranoid idiot who misunderstood Gary's statement. All Jamie heard from gary was "vote" and "you", he replaced, in his paranoid mind, the word "with", and replaced it with "for". Gary will attempt to straighten it out with Jamie, as shown in the preview, but since Gary didn't actually vote "with" Jamie, he'll have a hard time convincing him.

Judd - The immunity idol is totally on the ground. Claimed during TC that he hasn't lied.

Blatent and rude. I think this lie will come back to haunt Judd.

Gary - Mr. "Hawkins" also claimed to be lie-free.

Total non-factor in the game.

Steph - Bobby Jon tried to stay in the game while pointing out to folks in her alliance that she would lie to their faces.

Could she be any more of a witch?!? Her final 4 comment to Judd, coupled with BJ's warning should set off all kinds of alarms in his head. Too bad it'll be too late when he finally decides to do something about it (or not) next week.

Also shown lying to Gary about not being the target, even when he told her to look him in the eye.

Yep, she lied to his face,and he knows it. He also knows she has the power, and he'll do anything at this point to stay/get on her good side. Even though he was told that BJ and Danni would go before him, he obviously didn't believe it, since he felt compelled to use the hidden idol last night.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 04:09 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
You guys make a good argument that lying will be a key issue. I had somewhat dismissed the lies we have seen as forgivable strategy, but you are persuasive.

Quick vote on whether Jamie misunderstood Gary: I believe he did. I watched it again and I could see fear and immediate strong reaction in Jamie's eyes and face. Mr. paranoid couldn't even relate to "with" you; he's so us vs. them. So what he heard was, my vote's with you, Jamie, that's what I need to do to stay alive in the game--as is, I am writing down your name, which would make TOTAL SENSE in Jamie's world.

Jamie knew that 3 Jamie votes would not help Gary stay alive, so the next leap for Jamie was to assume someone or everyone on his side was cutting a deal and he immediately ran to Steph et al to ask them to be straight with him. Then Steph lied because she did have the idea of offing Jamie even though she hadn't approached Gary.

To FlowerPower: definitely a glass of wine for each episode. The Finale requires a whole BOTTLE at my disposal--although half is probably more like what I will consume, depending on how awful an ending it is.

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 12:55 PM (EST)
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53. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I agree with you Beebs, lying emerged as a major theme last nite.

I agree with you true, that Judd's lie will come back and bite him in his A$$. It really was an unnecessary lie and they usually get blown way out of proportion and Gary will dot it to his advantage. Judd would lie to you (in real life) just as soon as look at ya, imho. He's a blowhard and a braggard.

Gary is a liar but he expects others to play with their heart.blahblahblah..He's the snake of the group...the others should watch out for him. I actually dislike him (in the game sense, I'm sure he's a nice guy)more than Jamie and Judd now...Gary plays the high almighty but is the same lying snake in the grass that Judd and Jamie are. If you are going to play Rob C/JFP style at least admit to it (like Steph). I am still holding out hope that his lie will come back to bite him in the A$$ too...but I think it is more about CBS and football than anything..but Danni may try to use it later if its Gary v. Danni if Judd/Jamie are booted.

Steph is a good liar, ala Rob C, I'll give her that. She's lying when she has to not just to lie...like Judd.

Jamie..I really think he took the lie (not a misunderstanding) to his alliance to try to put Gary ahead of him in pecking order. His lie worked, along with him winning, all but for that hidden idol. Jamie obviously knew that he was in trouble and with his little broken heart, he gave up his cheeseburger for bunny poop pellets. I agree 100% with FP, his story has come full circle and he'll be gone next.

I know one of these at least will be F2--Steph and she will keep on lying and showing her million dollar smile. Maybe Jamie and Judd didn't act with BJ but I bet they come around to his view come votin' time...

I still see Danni as the winner...but I want her edit to pick up too..I think it will next week as I think she will be on RC with "the enemy" probably Jamie/Judd or Steph but prob. J or J as Cindy Rafe Lydia would not be considered an "enemy" per se.




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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 04:10 PM (EST)
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56. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I don't think Judd's lie about the idol is going to be a big deal at all:

1) It's Gary who caught him in the lie and will try to expose it. But everyone knows Gary needs to fight for his own longevity in the game. Why should they believe him?

2) Gary found the idol by following Judd, and used it to save his own hide. So really, they will think, what does Gary have to complain about anyway?

3) Judd won the clues fair and square and didn't have to share them at all. If he lied, so what? Others probably would have done the same thing.

4) It's doubtful that Stephenie, Rafe, and Lydia even bothered to look for the idol, since they think they are in the final 4. Cindy might be slightly pissed if she was looking for it, but she said at TC that eventually everyone is going to have to lie. Jamie I don't think would care (and anyway he is probably leaving before Judd).

5) The matter of the idol is finished. It was there, someone found it, it was used, end of story. No one is going to care about it now.


Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 05:20 PM (EST)
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57. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
point taken BR... but why was "lying" brought out so much last nite..I still think it may be the reason Judd AND Gary Leave when they do (in F6/7 spots, imo.)

They both were asked (maybe others were too but not shown) and they lied about not lying....Cindy might not care but Rafe will and Lydia.

Although it could be the total other way and Gary or Judd is in F2 with Steph and that is the issue the jury questioning focuses on..."Remember, you'll be lying to the jury" jiffy said at the end of the show last nite.

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 05:51 PM (EST)
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58. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I'm in agreement with Mr. Roach on the lying. Lying is a fact of life on Survivor....who cares, they will all have to do it, most likely. Gary is a liar, but do any one of them really care? Not really, everyone tries to play up the lying thing, as Jiffy did last night, but it's a dead issue, fact of the game...the survivors will move on...


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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 08:45 PM (EST)
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61. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
LAST EDITED ON 11-11-05 AT 08:51 PM (EST)

Lying is a fact of life on Survivor....who cares

The jury always cares, although I don't think it is necessarily just about the jury.

Jiffy's exact quote was,

Well it is clear from tonight's tribal council that the next phase of this game is going to center around lying, the only problem is, that you are lying to your jury.

I think emydi is correct; this is a theme. More importantly this theme is converging with the good versus evil theme of the previous episode. I think the themes are convergent because they essentially include the same characters, Gary and Cindy of the moral minority and Judd, Jamie and Steph from the evil empire. If Rafe had somehow gotten into this mix I would be positive.

Steph isn't about to boot anyone out of her "evil alliance" for being evil, because it is her "evil alliance". But if a member(s) is/are untrustworthy and lying to her, it would give her cause.

Gary's theme this season has been "the lie". Cindy's comments were that she expects people to lie, but for her it is more of an issue of trust. Jamie's and Judd's lies were blatant and I expect may come back to haunt them. In contrast Gary's lie may never be unearthed and I am not sure if it would matter much to anyone, especially Cindy.

Edited for grammar.

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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 09:46 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
A LYING theme could also fit into the deserving and non-deserving theme. The jury members may take the lying and
deserving into consideration. Also the F2 is sometimes
determined by the extent of the lies (like with poor Ian
trying to live up to Tom's standards). Some lies are
forgiveable by some and not so by others. How it fits to
the editing, though, is partly just bc it really did happen.
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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 06:03 PM (EST)
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59. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
Watching last night's episode, I had the feeling this is turning into the Stephenie, Judd and Gary show just like last year was the Tom, Ian and Stephenie show at this stage of the series. Sure, players like Rafe and Jaime had their moments but so had Coby and others last year. The psychological profile of the main players was laid out for us to see:

Jaime's bruised ego having been soothed by the departure of Brandon tried to redeem himself while still taking shots at others. (I'm sure Gary said that he was voting BJ out, so I don't think it was a misunderstanding. His lie was to prevent Gary's attempts at returning in the alliance).

Rafe saying he is ready to turn the game around. To demonstrate it, he flips over in the water. Will all his attempts be as futile?

Gary not quitting just as in football when he was trailing 20-0. (Isn't that a good time to change your quarterback?!) He has finally been shown in full game mode as pointed out by Stephenie. I think using the Idol was his final time out and now the clock is running towards the end of the 4th quarter.

Judd acting... well, like Judd! He had a grand time during that episode and all the beer (and vodka!) he wanted. He acted like a child, telling a clumsy lie to the rest of the tribe after clearing it with his big sister, Stephenie. Going to F2 as everyone preferred opponent doesn't require much work so that pleases Judd.

Stephenie is playing a great game. She used her previous experience to guide her tribemates but since the switch, she has grabbed the leadership and hasn't relinquished it for a second. Brandon, after leaving, pointed out how Steph and Judd appeared #1 and 2 in the alliance and she could win if she takes him to the final. She is studying her opponents and is well aware of their abilities except maybe Danni. Being sure she could beat any woman survivor could be her demise.

That brings me to Danni. Bebo, I hear you when you say:"Do something!" She is in fact doing a lot I think but the editing is cutting it all out. Just last week on the Insider, Rafe said Danni was playing hard, talking and showing her teeth to everyone but it doesn't come on the air. If Danni reaches F2 she would have accomplished as much as Tom and Chris combined. Afterall, she controlled the voting on her tribe like Tom but now is in danger of being left alone just like Chris. She would make a very sympathetic winner if her actions were shown but right now she hasn't emerged yet (look at her popularity results or lack thereof on CBS.com). We always see shots of her (laughing when Rafe takes his plunge, practicing before IC), but we don't hear her or see her working the others. It is getting late to tell the full story. I'm starting to worry there is not much more to tell.

Cindy, despite a good showing in the RC almost went back into hiding and Lydia still wasn't a factor.

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true 9689 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 06:06 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I don't think it was the content of the lie that matters in Judd's case. The fact that he gave Steph the clue, turned immediately around and told a big fat lie to the group (for no real reason) and then the way he lied so blatently at TC will set off alarms in Steph's head. She has to wonder if, perhaps, he isn't lying to her too. It has nothing to do with Gary.

I don't have a problem with lying in the game, but if you're going to do it, you better have a good reason, and you better not flaunt it. Otherwise, those who you NEED to trust you, won't.

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mockingbird 61 desperate attention whore postings
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11-12-05, 03:17 AM (EST)
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64. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I wonder if Gary will approach Lydia at some point and remind her that she pleaded with him to keep her over Morgan earlier in the game-and he and Brian complied. He keeps me interested-playing hard, if a bit self-righteous. His following of Judd kind of reminded me of Sandra following Burton and Jon. Is this a Leo thing? Mata Hari-ish?
Cindy and Danni- I'm just not seeing much strategy. Why Not?
Rafe-good people watcher-playing it safe. Obviously not bad at challenges(came in 2nd). Don't think it's possible to manipulate him.
Judd-Can't keep a secret? That's good and bad for an alliance partner. I'd use him. This guy really entertains me.
Jamie-His bluntness could be used to an opposing players advantage-he's brutally honest and can't seem to hide his emotions-one can learn secretive things from him. Manipulate him. Still-horrible endgame strategy.
Steph-gives her all in challenges-determined to win the game at all costs-sneaky-the type of gameplayer I admire the most. I must be one of the few who actually prefers the new "player" Steph over the Palau Steph. To me-she is what Survivor is about. Perhaps BJ said it best with the "grin" comment. She is a wolf in sheeps clothing-are the other players seeing the wolf? Or just a charming little lamb?
Now how would any of these players vote? For or against? Grudge?Good game vs. honesty and integrity(two words I've come to strongly dislike in these shows)? My opinion:
BJ-Gameplay
Jamie-emotion
Gary-honesty(remember-he prays before challenges)
Danni-honesty(also religious-but then again so was Vecepia..)
Cindy-Gameplay
Lydia-Gameplay
Rafe-? leaning towards Gameplay-above all he knows why he's there
Judd-? emotion?
Steph-Gameplay
M
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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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11-14-05, 05:14 AM (EST)
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71. "RE: The Merger and More-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Guatemala"
I must be one of the few who actually prefers the new "player" Steph over the Palau Steph. To me-she is what Survivor is about. Perhaps BJ said it best with the "grin" comment. She is a wolf in sheeps clothing-are the other players seeing the wolf? Or just a charming little lamb?

Interesting comment. I'm not so sure if this is a new Steph or a new editing of Steph. BJ's comments seem to bear this out, especially since he has spent little time with her at Gautemala as opposed to Palau.


DRONES

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-11-05, 09:42 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: Lying to the jury"
I believe there's a special rule to the game of Survivor that states:

no issue, imagined or otherwise, can be too trivial or petty or hypocritical for any jury member not to work it to death in an attempt to make any contender for the title of Sole Scumvivor feel like a steaming heap of crap or lower than pond scum (pick your metaphor).

Pot calling kettle black is specifically encouraged.

I'm pretty sure this rule exists because every one of the juries has complied with a vengeance.

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mavs_fan 299 desperate attention whore postings
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11-13-05, 05:56 AM (EST)
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65. "king kong"
I think from the start Judd has been shown in conjunction with the howler monkeys. Judd has been shown as not quite civilized, as a brute, king of the jungle - King Kong in this edition of survivor.

King Kong was laid low by a pretty woman.

I think Judd will be bested in the final 2 by either Steph or more likely Danni.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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11-13-05, 06:43 PM (EST)
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66. "Episode"
This episode was actually more "fluff" than what it appeared but it most definitely set up some beginnings and endings. Everyone mentioning the "lying" shows clearly that the intent from this last episode was to introduce that deception is now integral to playing the game.

Obviously, deception ALWAYS plays a part, it does every season and at some point Jeff along with editing INTRODUCES when this will happen in earnest In other words, there is no going back now but clearly the role of lying is done in different ways, accepted in certain ways and harmful in other ways.

That is all I wanted to do - question the validity of this spoiler using the editing as the testing tool.

aj by no means do I want you to feel you need to explain what you brought up This thread does not say "no spoilers allowed" and I would be naive to think that they aren't utilized in people's thoughts and posts. Unfortunately, I can't help in the validity of the spoiler via the editing because I am not sure what the spoiler is and my mindset based on the progession since episode one has not really changed. Everyone here uses different tools in speculating the long term players: editing, Nash, astrology has peeked in here this season, winning quotes, your music analysis

Remember when you started to dislike Judd intensely and you really liked Cindy and I asked you if your dislike of Judd was perhaps in conjunction with the fact that he attacked Cindy and you like Cindy? Action - reaction. As much as one tries NOT to, our likes, dislikes and belief of information can cloud thinking. My post was more to say that sometimes even questioning the validity of something may cause (subconciously) one to fit the editing to work; it is very simple for that to happen. This is why I depend more of what I have seen in early episodes and view whether it has been consistent and do not allow my like/dislike of the players cloud my thinking or information that has been passed around.

Now on with the show which obviously everyone has already discussed and I'm merely recapping

Recall Brandon upon his boot episode when he stated "things are starting to happen" They most certainly are; there was a definite shift that was felt as it usually does around this time and this was evident by the character portrayals and things that were stated:

Rafe was absolutely integral in the last episode and despite his being a narrator from the beginning; he is now appearing to take Jamie up on his offer when Jamie had told him awhile back to "have an opinion" Rafe's mindset is becoming clearer now.

Rafe "If Jamie doesn't use this to learn from and change from, then I'm going to change up this game" (confessional after Jamie's tirade from Tribal Council)

This was certainly an interesting discussion because it came to us via confessional and it went against all the remarks about the "magical 6"

It was interesting to see the "six" thrown around so much as prior to the merge when Margaret was leaving, I remember Judd telling Jamie, "we are six, right" and at that time, I stated that any time "numbers" are thrown around it is usually an indication that something will occur to upset that applecart much like stating "boot orders. In other words, the magical six will NOT come to fruition

Judd "We're up in numbers, we got 6-3, Danni, Gary and Bobby Jon are the most vulnerable and they know it"

Bobby Jon "Nothing I can do budge the magical 6"

Stephenie "To get the numbers in this game is hard. When you have them, you stick with those people"

Gary "Would be stupid to get them more mad at me than they are already; there's no breaking that six"

This, coupled with a lot of talk about "the plan" we keep hearing about (from Jamie, from Stephenie) is usually never a good sign as we know from past seasons. Someone or something will rock that boat and, as we can also see, these six people don't necessarily know what the others in this group are actually doing or contemplating. Many times the six of them are divided into smaller groups and it doesn't necessarily appear that everyone is telling everyone what is actually going on

The Quotes

Judd "This is competition; sometimes you say things and you don't mean them"

Rafe "If Jamie doesn't use this to learn from and change from then I'M GOING TO CHANGE UP THIS GAME" (clear foreshadowing in conjunction with all the talk of "magic 6" and "the plan" Clearly, as already stated, Rafe now intends to "have an opinion")

Danni "Hopefully, we'll get more clues...... praying the Lord will lead me to it"

Gary "....came back and won in last part of the game; if it gets me there it gets me there, if not, I'm comfortable how I played this game"

Jamie "Nothing tastes better than my self respect" and"It broke my heart" (Jamie had the classic redemption episode we all know and talk about. He had two major branches to his edit; one with Bobby and one with Stephenie; he and Bobby resolved and he and Stephenie are reaching their culmination. Jamie's arc is reaching its conclusion)

Lydia to Jamie "You've got nothing to worry about" (Interesting this is coming from Lydia; essentially the one person who was never in a sub group discussing Jamie's status)

Jamie "I'd like to let the other people move up" (Irony at its best)

Stephenie "He (Jamie) is a loose cannon; I feel like he can ruin our entire plan" and"I can't stand him" and "Frustrated with him; thinking we could maybe get rid of him and we'd be okay but we got a great plan in place and we are getting rid of Gary first"

Ironically, despite the fact that Bobby Jon was booted, the the events occurring were not really about Bobby Jon nor were they about Brandon when they left. Clearly the last two episodes were more about the tribe dynamics and what is 'STARTING' to happen Bobby Jon's boot was really viewed as an afterthought; this episode was more about the changing dynamics that are occurring.

Stephenie "If you find this, you're definitely in the final four" (to Judd) (I so hate hearing things like this, my suspicious mind puts this in a mental file cabinet to be pulled out when or if this doesn't occur)

Judd "I don't have a problem lying to the other guys at all; that's what this game is about man (I'm sure we all noted how he only told Stephenie the information about the idol along with his selecting Stephenie (and Bobby for that matter) to eat along with him. Those actions are more palpable than words, Judd certainly is close with Stephenie which is interesting considering Judd was one of the people that Bobby Jon chose to discuss Stephenie as a threat)

Speaking of which, how can we forget two amazing situations occurring at the same time. Bobby Jon shown stirring the pot and someone finally pointing out that Stephenie is a huge threat

Bobby Jon "You're real threat is grinding corn. She's already got Rafe. I know alliances and promises have been made but dude she'll break them" (to Jamie and Judd)

Bobby Jon "She's a great player....... she'll lie to your face and give you that million dollar grin and she's gonna get you guys...."

This is essentially the first time we heard Stephenie discussed as a threat to win this game (and by Bobby of all people who was never shown last season to think strategically) when I'm sure that the audience has been asking this a lot longer. We now may start to see the beginning of an offshoot of Stephenie's characterization where we hear from her about being vulnerable. Realistically, there was no reason for Bobby Jon to even discuss Stephenie to Judd and Jamie at that time, the timing seemed a bit off. We either have NOT been privvy to dynamics involving Stephenie or Bobby Jon was instilling something that will flesh out more later on. My thoughts on this is that Stephenie as a potential candidate to be booted was not a new thought and she was brought up to Judd and Jamie in conjunction with events and discussion we have not been allowed to see just yet.


Jamie"I'm with our plan still, I want you to promise you won't d--k me over and I promise you"
Rafe "Nothing will change" (We know everything changes in this game)
Jamie"Don't screw me over"
Rafe "We're fine"

Did everyone else notice the green snake at the beginning of this exchange and then again right before.......

Rafe "I wish I could say it was an act of goodness of his heart but I don't think it was" "I don't trust Jamie"

Jamie "Stephenie and Rafe could change over to Bobby Jon and Danni's and Gary's side and they'd have the numbers right now" and "People change real quick and it could all come back around on you" (Prophetic, especially in light of Rafe wanting to change up the game and Stephenie and his ultimate showdown to be done? Also interesting how Cindy said almost the same exact comment about Judd just prior to the merge)

Danni"I don't like to lose; I'm so competitive" (sitting with Gary and Bobby after the IC)

Gary"Hey, I can guarantee you one thing; it's one of us three" (to Danni and Bobby Jon regarding Tribal Council or something else in the world of editing, time will tell)

Stephenie "Why does this seem too easy, getting nervous"

Stephenie"If I know I will (tell Gary when he goes) All I know is the plan is Bobby Jon; you were last anyway" (Again, boot orders designated never come to pass)

Gary "This is a game.....they could all be lying to me, I don't know"

Stephenie "That would be amazing if he found it, can you imagine?" (To Rafe about Gary finding the idol)

(This is where editing is clearly utilized as a tool in this show, this was purposely left in to make the point then show Gary producing it. If one ever tells me editing is not prevalent in the way Survivor progresses, examples like this negate any naysayers )

Lydia "I don't feel like I deserve it" (about moving up in the food chain; double meaning perhaps?)

The Challenge Quotes

I pay attention to a lot of these quotes as sometimes it does appear that there are certain comments that are stated that attempt to make an effort to show how events may occur.

Jeff: "Cindy would like to knock everyone down one peg" (Considering the hierarchy of the magic six, I would suggest that this indeed is likely to happen)

Jeff: "Gary, Rafe and Lydia take a step down"(for who and why?

Jeff: "The result of what you gave up, we'll find out soon" (to Jamie, again prophetic?)

Jeff: "You moved yourself down to the bottom" (to Jamie)

Jeff: "He almost loses it but keeps his balance" (about Gary)

Jeff: "Rafe getting closer and closer" (again this is about the fourth time he has said this directly about Rafe)

Jeff: "Good to be King?" (to Judd)

Jeff: "Jamie, this is wheer you would have been in the line..." (fifth place overall perhaps?)

Also, it seemed very deliberate that we heard Stephenie consistently and constantly through both challenges being congratulatory and encouraging Subtle change in her edit to soften a bit?

Tribal Council

Heavily drenched in the whole issue of trust which certainly has a relationship with deserving as thematic approaches now that weak vs. strong is not as relevant anymore though endurance is still an overall feeling, there was much said about trust and lying.

Danni "It gets kind of scary who you can trust and who you can't; I'm worried because of the number game. I don't think I can trust anyone at this point. My head is on the chopping block but that's just part of the game"

Gary "No rule that says you can't lie in this game..."

Judd "No sir, not yet (about lying) it might happen but as of this point, I haven't lied about anything" (and we know that at least two people know this to be untrue)

Cindy "You can't help but develop some sort of trust but I don't think it's possible to go through this game from beginning to end and never lie... I think we're all gonna be liars before it's all over with" (shot of Judd thereafter)

Jeff "The next phase is going to center around lying. Only problem is you are lying to the jury. Should make for a fun finish"

Jeff always manages to instill messages in his closing remarks and with the prevalence of trust and lying along with those who have discussed about letting them know if they are going it would certainly indicate there is going to be a lot of interesting shakeups and cover ups. This subject matter would or SHOULD not have been brought up IF THE ORDER OF ELIMINATION THAT APPEARS TO BE DESIGNATED is done IN that order.

If you recall in Australia, we had teasers of situations that made the audience hope and question if those like Nick, Rodger, Elisabeth would somehow and someway be able to overcome the clear path of their demise. During this, we did not hear such an overwhelming discussion of trust, paranoia and lying BECAUSE it never came into play

Interesting Observations

Judd drunk Judd's little excursion was really "fluff" material. The situation itself was relatively benign, nothing came from it, Judd was never even brought up as a disgusting drunk who needs to go. This was merely shown more to establish Gary a little bit more as we all know his only story was about his football career.

Lydia Relatively on the back burner with the exception of providing food, comforting Jamie and deeming herself undeserving. It was clear from conversations that Lydia is solely a tool being used as she was never shown present during any important strategy conversations

Judd and his cigar puffing shown at key moments to convey his feeling all right in his world

Stephenie winking at Judd while he fumbles through his lie about where the idol is located to the group

Gary asks Stephenie about trust and to look at him and the shot that followed was an upward shot up Stephenie's body which just happened to include a cross necklace

Stephenie telling us that Gary is a huge physical threat not to mention he is always in game mode

Amazing music (as aj will tell us) with Judd searching for the idol and Gary spotting him, the music had almost a siren quality to it that you hear in shows with a huge climax

At this point, I think we have all been very much on target with these players. Gary is the only one that has surprised me immensely as I deemed him a short term player based on his one dimensional story Gary's story is still not very fleshed out but he has won II already and found the idol so circumstances kept him from leaving. However, there was a slight shift in tone by Gary that was probably meant to evoke some negativity such as the food reward. We were deliberately meant to see Gary looking morose and Bobby Jon pointed out to us his attempts to be respectful and so forth. There was a judgement by Gary during this episode and the eating and the funny drunk moments thereafter did not validate what Gary said very well.

I'm still loathe to make any changes in my initial observations though as I said, Gary's standing did indeed give me pause considering his story was solely about football (game mode indeed!) Cindy's edit is now more fully established which sits well for her. As far as Danni "doing something" I understand and smiled when I saw this. My thoughts on Danni were from the first episode and nothing has made me see anyone else in exchange with her (unless Stephenie's edit makes a bigger change) so I'm not waiting to see what she DOES as she has been doing things all this time.

If we see a woman endure and become victorious as the editing seemed to dictate (and it isn't Stephenie) it may solely be about endurance though by now, Mark Burnett and company should know the audience would rather see how the person accomplished that task.


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11-13-05, 08:31 PM (EST)
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67. "RE: Episode"
VS, I think this post very much nails the episode. Beautiful.

My only quibble about Gary's editing is that I didn't see his remarks about it not being fun to watch as negative in any way.

For one thing, with this type of challenge the editors WANT to introduce the idea that it's not pleasant to be a have-not amongst the haves. Gary is a big guy with a little slice of pizza and other than Jamie he made out the worst. Further, a lot of viewers may assume he could have thrown better and perhaps BEST but chose not to stand out and demonstrate his "quarterback" throwing skills. I thought so, even though the editing didn't drive the point home with a confessional from Gary--perhaps because no one likes to see someone claim they could have won if they had tried.

To me, Gary was shown sacrificing a chance to eat in order to TRY to play down his abilities, as Jamie was shown sacrificing to try to make amends and forestall being heaved out of the alliance. Ironically, neither of these strategic sacrifices were shown to pan out.

LYDIA--I agree she is seen as a tool by everyone except Rafe and Jamie, who I feel genuinely have a bond with her. I did feel she was shown this time as having a strategy, which I would call stategic HUMILITY. Very symbolic when she said she expected and deserved no more than a cracker, if that. As there was no cracker in sight, it was Lydia who introduced the idea of one.
(Side-note: am I the only one who is reminded of a communion wafer by cracker?)

Cracker = crumbs, the leavings, total acceptance of being for the team and not playing an individual game. Does anyone believe that? I don't. She is playing by reassuring everyone that she is not playing and that she will go with a Christlike humility whenever they are done with her. It was VERY funny to me that she got a fish instead of a cracker, not only because she's a fishmonger but because the fish is Christ's symbol.

HOWEVER, the first thing we learned about Lydia's game is that she stood up to save herself when she said "I'm not ready to go." She didn't say she wanted to win, just that she didn't want to go YET. Her strategy is to always appear to be resigned to going in the future (rather than winning) but not just yet.

So I think she is shown to have some game she is actively playing by getting these guys to actually buy into the humble fishmonger persona. We are not made privy to any Lydia confessionals about her own strategy just yet. She doesn't have a dual persona of "humble" in camp and "playing for herself" in confessionals, but then she is not in danger yet. I do hope that when her crisis comes along that we will finally see a Lydia who isn't playing for a cracker and is somewhat worthy of a spot in the F4.

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11-14-05, 01:29 AM (EST)
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68. "RE: Episode"
LAST EDITED ON 11-14-05 AT 01:37 AM (EST)

OFG,

Whatever Lydia's story is, it would seem that we (the audience) are destined to be the last to hear it. But I think that roughly half of us had better stock up on tissues. And the other half on tranquilizers ...

JEFF PROBST: "Lydia is a charming woman with quite a history. I don't know how much will come out on the show. Truly a survivor in her own life".

BRIAN (Votes Morgan): "First vote for Yaxha! Morgan, I’m voting for you because I overheard you telling Jaime that he can’t trust me. And don’t you dare try to mess with my fishmonger! Nobody messes with my Lydia! I hope that this works. It was kind of last minute".

JAMIE (Votes Morgan): "I told you I was going to do anything I could to save my girl Lydia. I’m sorry you couldn’t listen and vote for Brianna."

CINDY (Votes Lydia): "This has nothing to do with the kind of person you are, because I've already told you that you were a survivor before you started this game. You're an inspiration to me in everything I do because of who you are. It has nothing to do with you, it just has to do with tribal ties that happened before I got to know you. Good luck."

MARGARET (Votes Lydia): "Lydia, you are an incredible woman whom I have great admiration and respect for, and I'm not sure who's stronger, you or Brooke. But I have tribe loyalties, and I gave Brooke my word, and I won't go back. Good luck".

BROOKE (To The Calgary Sun): "I’m rooting for Danni (Boatwright) because I had an alliance with her and I think she is just an amazing athlete — she’s better than most of the girls who have ever played the game.

I also think Lydia (Morales) would be very deserving of the money. A lot of people out there this time, I was really surprised, no one was too desperate for money. But Lydia has been through a lot in her life and … she is still such a positive person".

LYDIA (To CBS): "Favorite Survivor -- Rupert".


Man the Marimba!

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11-14-05, 03:37 AM (EST)
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70. "RE: Episode"
Georgianna, thank you, I had caught only one of those quotes and hadn't realized what you make obvious, that Lydia has had some big stuff happen. Odd we don't know about it. We were told Scout was a cancer survivor. We knew Jolanda had murder and other bad stuff happen in her family. We knew Amy's brother had been killed. CBS usually adds the life story to the bio.

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11-14-05, 05:24 AM (EST)
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72. "RE: Episode"
OFG,

Also interesting (as trivia, if as nothing else):

The Marimba (the instrument that Applejack notes is most often used to accompany Lydia's on-screen appearances) is the official national instrument of ... Guatemala.

Of course, Applejack has also told us that the Marimba figured prominently in the musical pronouncement of Danni's preeminence.

So I really wish that the thing would make up its mind!

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11-14-05, 07:51 AM (EST)
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73. "RE: Episode"
So I really wish that the thing would make up its mind!

Oh how very true! This is where music falls short - they will have to reuse instruments and themes at some point and this makes it a little confusing.

I'll try to offer some clarity amid this marimba confusion (although really, I'm just as confused) - the marimba does not underscore Lydia, as such - it underscores positive circumstance (positive meaning any variety of things from happy to inspirational to longevity). I'm making judgements on what it means in combination with its visual and verbal counterparts.

How interesting about it being the national instrument! Who'd have thought? This must be the reason it is so much more prominent this season!

Thanks georgie, for that fantastic bit of trivia.

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11-14-05, 01:05 PM (EST)
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74. "RE: Episode"
LAST EDITED ON 11-14-05 AT 01:09 PM (EST)

Applejack,

Probably because the computer age arrived full-force at the beginning of my middle one, I remain constantly amazed by where Search may ultimately take me ...

So, I'll add just a bit more trivia:

It would seem that the Marimba's esteemed place in Guatemalan history arises from two circumstances. The first is that the country claims the honor of developing today's complex instrument and the second is the instrument's intimate role in Maya religious observances and cultural celebrations (there is, however, some controversy about whether the instrument was introduced to Central America via 16th-century slavers or is homegrown: a product of the region's Pre-Columbian indigenous populations).

But whatever the truth of that controversy may be, it is safe to say that for centuries the elaborate folk stories/histories (always with a moral) that are central to those observances and celebrations (some requiring days to complete) have been told in a meld of music and dance: the story line advanced at any given moment by one or both. So that one must first know the story or be familiar with the historical event ("hear" the unsung lyric) to make sense of the otherwise seemingly disjointed pageantry.

In other words:

If Survivor's producers are employing segments of traditional scores to tell (without telling us) a story (make a point, emphasize a moral), then we have only to identify the piece, isolate the segment and spend a few hours or so reading the story to know precisely what that darned Marimba is saying.

And since you're the one who brought it up in the first place ...


On the other hand, if the Marimbas are just playing Burnett Does Buffett ...

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11-14-05, 01:34 PM (EST)
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75. "RE: Episode"
And Applejack,

You're welcome, of course, for the trivia.

And thank you! For a whole Season of wonderfully informative and challenging posts.

For instance:

Because of them, I now know what a Marimba looks like. And that is (at its least) a tenfold increase of my musical data base ...

Georgie

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11-14-05, 02:04 PM (EST)
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77. "RE: Episode"
From Lydia's pre-show confessional.

I think it's time for me to live. I mean, I took care of my parents when they were ill, for quite some time. And, uh, I raised my son, and my son is 17 years old, and uh, I did a terrific job being a Mom. So I thought to myself: when is it my turn to live? And I thought this would be a perfect opportunity to put my foot forward, and start... start anew for me. Start something challenging... finding myself and overcoming some of those obstacles. I think I can fit in very, very well. I think I have the personality, um, I love to help people. I can suggest or I'm gonna be one of those that's gonna be a provider.

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11-14-05, 01:36 AM (EST)
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69. "RE: Episode"
VS, I totally agree with you re: spoilers and bias mucking up with our analysis. I'm trying not to let it muck with my head because I like that side of spoiling too

Just one thing about the music before I do my usual post (might be a while because I'll have to re-watch the show) - for the first time in 11 seasons the TC music changed. If you notice - after Gary produced the idol the music became massively percussive (completely out of place at TC) - in fact the music sounded war-like, and very driven. This may have been because of the exceptional circumstances (i.e. 2 immune players forcing a last-minute change) but I think it signals something more - like the TC music, this season will be a first-timer. It's not going to play out like any other season ever has before, there are very few similarities this season, the music is showing us that.

Anyway, the rest of my musical analysis is coming - please be patient, it might take a while.

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11-14-05, 02:03 PM (EST)
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76. "RE: Episode"
aj, am looking forward to hearing the musical comparison in relation to the characters. I enjoyed the music so much during Gary's stealth "hunt" of Judd that I went back to listen to it twice just to hear that alone

OFG, I understand completely your viewpoint on Gary's edit which is probably why I put that is was only "somewhat" . I "personally" did not find it negative so to speak and it was most certainly not even representative of some of the nastiness that has been edited through our televisions by Survivor contestants. Sometimes I base a potential negative tone strictly in relation to how immensely positive a character's edit has been up until then (even if boring). In retrospect to Gary's very positive edit (if not mundane) his squinted eyes and tapping fingers and comments about that not being his idea of fun could be construed as a slight negativity (especially in light of the fact that Bobby Jon told us that he was attempting to be respectfuly because of Gary's face)

Really all this did was enhance Gary a bit. Considering his "vanilla" edit, this slight difference might mean something OTHER than the events of his finding the hidden idol since that HAD to be shown in context with the episode.

There is so much muck (appropriate word aj) with editing and time and time again it is difficult determining what is important and what isn't which is why initially the goal is to determine longevity and try to figure out way from there. It probably is time for me to go back to what we always do and review things we learned that we discuss at the end of each season because my stubborn self dislikes changing my opinion which, aj, can be as "dangerous" as other things mucking up the analysis (though I will still stand firm on the aura of a woman coming through)

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11-17-05, 04:26 AM (EST)
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78. "Music and Ep. 9"
Hi all, sorry this is late but as I said I have been SOOO busy lately that I've barely had time to scratch myself. Anyway, let me get into it:

There are only two real amazing things (musically) that happened this episode -
1 - What Veruca has already pointed out - the Gary/Judd music.
2 - The TC music.

Let me address the latter first. I have already said how out of place this TC music was in comparison to all other seasons. I also pointed out that I think it means something is coming. I think I know what that may be - the drums kicked in after Gary handed in the immunity idol, we then heard very powerful music as the survivors voted. This is the sort of music that you only hear in movies like Lord of the Rings, just as the opposing sides of a battle are aligning themselves in preparation. I think (don't quote me on this) that we are going to see a defies-all-the-odds streak of longevity coming, largely because the music kicked into gear when an unexpected player outlasted beyond what we expected. I am cautious to say that it is Gary who does this - because I don't think it is - but I can narrow down the possibilities. It must be someone in a minority, this means either Danni, Gary, Cindy or Lydia - and whoever does it is going to screw up the nakum-6's plans. Don't quote me on this, but this music suggested to me VERY strongly that one of these players is going to plow through the rest of the game. We are going to see someone emerge who, as of yet, has been laying dormant. The music SCREAMED this to me during TC, and I can't ignore it. Even if it is wrong, I maintain that this is what the music was saying.

Secondly - to address the lovely catch by Veruca (I hadn't really taken much note till I rewatched the show!) - the music when Gary was hunting for the idol after seeing Judd. The music was VERY atmospheric, it almost created a sound-scape. For want of a better method of description - this music belonged in Silence of the Lambs. Gary was hunting, and Judd inadvertently led him straight to his prey. This leads me to two conclusions:
1 - Gary is extremely dangerous right now, he could ruin everything.
2 - Judd is too daft to win this game. With such a DANGEROUS predator (as established by the music), Judd was made to seem like an easy target, incredibly easy to take advantage of.

Other than that, the music was rather straight forward, or too involved in the challenge driven Reward and IC. One thing I will note, though, is that Judd got the 'slightly insane and kinda kooky' music when he was drunk. This supports my belief that he is too stupid to win (although really, this is not reflective of his longevity).

There we go, they were two very important points I needed to get out. If I have missed anything, musically, please point it out to me!

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11-17-05, 07:13 AM (EST)
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79. "RE: Music and Ep. 9"
LAST EDITED ON 11-17-05 AT 07:13 AM (EST)

but this music suggested to me VERY strongly that one of these players is going to plow through the rest of the game. We are going to see someone emerge who, as of yet, has been laying dormant. The music SCREAMED this to me during TC, and I can't ignore it.

WoW!!!! Thanks, AJ! This is really getting good now! I would narrow it down and say that one of the "good guys" is going to do it, and that leaves Gary or Danni! WOOHOOO! I can't wait to see the axis of evil FALL!

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11-17-05, 04:04 PM (EST)
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80. "RE: Music and Ep. 9"
aj, so glad you were able to get the musical aura in before the next episode airs, I would hate for you to have double duty on that and since the "hunt" music struck a cord (chord?) for me, I fully expected an analysis from you

It would be nice if someone who has any prior seasons handy to check during two "drunken" moments and compare the musical background. Both Brian and Tom had very "stand out" moments when they drank too much; it would be interesting to differentiate the music that accompanied them as compared to Judd's "comical" musical component especially in light of the fact that both Tom and Brian were winners of their respective seasons.

One difference between Tom and Brian's drunken interludes and Judd's moment (in my opinion) is they did stand out to me if only for the fact that it seemed somewhat out of character for them. Brian and Tom always appeared to be very controlled and in control characters whereas upon my observing Judd's behavior.......it did not surprise me at all (and really why should it, Judd enjoyed his alcohol before and he isn't exactly the most controlled individual)

To sum up my notoriously long post it would be interesting to note after this season is long over (and how Judd eventually fares) how these "un Survivor like" moments are handled through sight and sound with regard to where they finish.

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11-18-05, 05:01 AM (EST)
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81. "Some ep 10 observations"
before the real Ep 10 editing post goes up, while it's fresh in my mind ... hope it's OK.

Well, we certainly heard the pitch to keep the deserving tonight from Gary.

We FINALLY got to see Danni relate to Steph and it was all good between them.

Most interesting quote (or combined quotes)--to my mind:

Jamie: Rafe is Steph's lap dog.

Second,
Lydia to Rafe: Have you talked to Steph?
Rafe: no, I should or I'm going to (whatever)

RAFE orchestrated that boot, not Steph. He and Lydia did "ask Steph" and we could see the idea appealed to Steph. We also know she and Gary had discussed a Jamie boot. But she didn't seem to come back to camp to try to make that happen. Instead she mentioned Gary as target--but Rafe just steered it. He did it in such a way that I'm not sure Steph realized that Rafe actually called a play.

What we were not shown: who talked to Cindy, because she voted Jamie.

Rafe was left off the list:
Gary named himself, Danni, Steph, and Judd as the most deserving. He named Lydia and Cindy as the two who could slide by. He named Jamie as the one who should go next. What about Rafe? Neither sliding by nor considered a strong competitor?

And then Rafe points out in confessional that he has won two individual immunities, which makes him a threat.

Meanwhile Jamie says in confessional that soon everyone will realize that he, Jamie, is the biggest threat.
Steph still thinks Gary is the biggest threat.
No one is talking about Judd being a threat.
No one comments that Cindy came in second on the IC.
No one calls Steph a threat.
It seems we are being shown that the idea of "who's a threat" bears little relation to the reality but is more of a subjective impresion that sticks without a lot of basis. I would say someone who is winning 2 out of 4 shots at individual immunity but isn't even pinging anyone's radar is the real threat.

I thought this episode was going to be the one that started to build up Danni, but once again, it really didn't put us inside her head in comparison to what we heard from Rafe, Gary, Judd, Jamie (the boot, immaterial), and Steph, and she seemed more on a par with Lydia and Cindy.

To me, this was Rafe's episode. I so wish he were going to win. If Danni does get to F2, I wonder if there will be any strategy to it other than laying low and surviving. She will have to make a move soon for me to consider her a real player.

Lastly, re the aura of a woman winning: it now looks like it will be even more than that, probably a F5 with 4 women and a gay man. While Rafe is very much a man he has that little bit of "girlie" in his personality and in a way he has pulled together a "girls" alliance (if you count Steph as a girl) and he is seen as a lap dog (ouch) by BJ, Jamie, and no doubt Judd and Gary. We are gradually being shown he is not. Did I mention I want Rafe to win?

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11-18-05, 11:34 AM (EST)
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82. "RE: Some ep 10 observations"
OFG,

The Rafe, Lydia, and Steph exchange reminded me of Palau when Ian and Katie orchestrated Greg's boot, and Vanuatu where Twilia and Eliza orchestrated Ami's (by proxy) boot.

In both those cases, as well as this one, I have to imagine that Tom, Chris, and Steph could have been shown as the one orchestrating the boots.

I thought Judd actually pegged himself as the biggest threat. At the RC when everyone was going to bed Judd had a confessional regarding threats. At the end he says something about the biggest threat, and the camera cuts to him. I will have to rewatch to get the exact wording, but that was my impression.

I agree that the non-threatening players have a pretty good chance of skating through to the final five and I expect Rafe to be there.

Unfortunately, I think we are supposed to want Rafe to win. That can't be good for his actual chances.

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11-18-05, 01:25 PM (EST)
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83. "RE: Some ep 10 observations"
Some interesting theme developments, as well as straightforward Survivor editing, in last night's episode.

Gary tried to play up the deserving/undeserving theme last night, by presenting his view of an "all-worthy" final 4 battling it out as the end. Judd and Steph listen, but their confessionals make it clear that they will not be coming on board with this scenario. Steph knows how sweet she has it already and will not jeopardize her dominant position in her current alliance to listen. So, for yet another time, a strategy is revealed that will not succeed.

Speaking of strategies revealed that won't succeed, we were reminded yet again of Jaime's plan to take Judd to F2, and we were shown an attempt to pull in Rafe as the third. In a season where lying is shown as a major theme, we see Rafe choosing not to lie to Jaime and take the offer, explaining instead that he didn't feel comfortable saying yes right away without thinking about it.

Throughout this episode, Rafe was shown in a positive light - he didn't lie to Jaime and take the offer, and he later discussed how well he's been performing in ICs. Rafe's giving us lots of reasons to root for him, but also showing why, once the core alliance has to start turning on itself, he has to be eliminated. His ultimate downfall will be that no one would want him in the F2. This sets him up for departure at F3 when he fails to win the one immunity challenge that he had to, after performing well in a whole bunch where he was never at risk for elimination. There's his storyline.

Other thoughts:
- Jaime was most upset about Lydia not telling him about his impending doom, since he had warned her when she was at risk. Lydia's been in the background for awhile, but we're starting to see a negative vibe on her that is setting her up for elimination in a few eps.
- In prior episodes Judd's lying has been a forefront issue, while in this episode his honesty is his downfall. He gave his word to "the plan", he stuck to "the plan"...not knowing that everyone else had abandoned "the plan". He learns the hard way that he was always on the outside edge of the alliance, even though he had thought otherwise.
- Lots of positives for Danni, with Gary including her in his deserving F4, and Steph talking about how terrific she is.

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11-18-05, 06:23 PM (EST)
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84. "RE: Some ep 10 observations"
Outfrontgirl - Good observations. I am totally with you! I have always been a fan of Rafe. This episode was all about Rafe. We've seen Rafe working this alliance, and I've said it a few weeks back, but I think Rafe is running this alliance. So, I am rooting for Rafe as well. It just seems like a great guy who really deserves to win this thing.

Unfortunatly, he probably wouldn't win because everyone I want to win never does.

I'm still a bit confused on why everyone thinks Danni will be in final 2. Is there some spoiler that I'm missing? I just think she'll be another "invisible." (Nick, Zoe, Darrah, Jennifer) I guess we'll see

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11-18-05, 06:25 PM (EST)
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85. "Key Quote..."
I think this might be a real key quote that hints towards the winner to me...

"I forgot about Danni... Danni's on the ground, she's out of sight."

The contestants are all too busy knocking each other down a peg and squabbling over who to boot or who's being the biggest arsehole, but they're forgetting about Danni who's keeping her nose clean and when the dust settles at the end of it all... she's the last Survivor still standing.



Scratch and sniff
"Tsk, tsk. Pepe's messing with the newbies again." Spidey, 3/30/05

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11-19-05, 01:02 AM (EST)
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87. "RE: Key Quote..."
nice pick, pepe - it works very well I think.

The other one I got was "when Cindy starts to move she flies!". An awfully rehearsed line to include, don't you think?

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11-19-05, 06:57 AM (EST)
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88. "RE: Key Quote..."
Great catches you two. I see these two quotes as a foreshadowing of what is coming down the road this season.With the story lines building for both Cindy and Danni in this episode I feel that these two will be responsible for the demise of Steff's alliance.One, Cindy, will take out the lapdog Rafe. The other Danni, will take out the queen.These two girls will be in the final 4. Danni has started her game in earnest.RedBeard
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11-19-05, 08:14 AM (EST)
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89. "RE: Key Quote..."
A Few observations.
In regards to endgame strategy-I think that Steph, Rafe, and Lydia made a mistake-though it's hard to tell if Jamie is a respect voter or not-but I think it's interesting that those three started the beginning of the 'destruction of the axis of evil" rather than the players outside of that coven.
At the voting booth-Steph's comment about Jamie lying made me wonder-is she referring to his misunderstanding of Gary's vote from last episode? or did Rafe tell her of Jamie's final 3 plan. I'm guessing the latter-which probably made their vote that much easier. Also-their sneaky discussion with Lydia appeared very psychological to me-the way they both looked at each other-Steph's "If you do"'... It almost looked as though they wanted Lydia to feel as if she was the deciding factor-a placement of guilt?
We know that on the show Jamie was a bit perturbed at Rafe's calm demeanor. On TES he said that Steph was always very controlled as well-perhaps he feared that quality the most-but it's interesting that he pegged them as the one's not to trust.
He was right.
I'm wondering why Lydia is involved in the animosity of next week's previews-perhaps she is the one Judd is targeting-and it's odd that it's the next day(daylight)-Judd strikes me as the type who would lash out right after tribal council. This "daytime" argument probably relates to gary/Lydia strategizing that he overhears-and he'd have no reason to be upset with gary-so I'm thinking it's Lydia.
I happen to not think that Jamie's ouster will alter Judd's relationship with Steph.
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11-19-05, 01:00 AM (EST)
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86. "music and ep. 10"
This post is a mixture of both editing/music, so I'll try to keep it understandable! I thought I'd better post my thoughts early cos I'm going on a short holiday tomorrow, otherwise I probably wouldn't post till next thursday again! I'm just going to go through the show chronologically - once again I should point out that the show is probably broken up differently here in australia, so if the segments don't match up exactly I'm sorry...

Recap
Interesting that Danni was in shot when v/o said "Alliance of six" - is she closer to that six than we think?

first segment
There was very little melody when Jamie and Cindy had their little tiff - their confessionals weren't really given positive or negative overtones by the melody, therefore we weren't being told how to react. I think we were MEANT to see Cindy as a little moody (she is quite irritable sometimes) - which definately helped to further her establish her character, which up till now has not been highly distinguished. She is developing quite steadily, which bodes well for her (then again, she is my favourite so take it with a grain of salt).

I thought that the music underscoring Jamie/Gary's argument about lying was a little TOO serious for the situation. I think the composers the editors were trying to bend it so that the issue seemed serious, but really I don't think it was. Obviously, this wasn't good for Jamie and I think the fact that Gary tried to stay non-confrontational was good for him.

second segment
The RC - I only have one thing to point out, editing-wise, and that was that the Cindy/Jamie exchange after the challenge served Cindy quite well. Once more we are seeing her have an opinion, voice it and not stay so neutral.

third segment
THe music underscoring the reward was mainly situationally driven - especially once we got to the videos with the strings and the 'forrest gump' style piano theme - throw me some tissues please.

Interesting that the inspirational music I mentioned in the ep. 7 reward (the canopy line) returned, and look who was present? Danni and Gary AGAIN. These two (esp. Danni) are frequently shown enjoying their experience. This is an essential part of the winners edit - they generally have some sort of respect, mutual understanding or draw some inspiration from their environment. These two have had it more frequently than others, and I think we should not discount it as 'fluff' material. The 'fluff' material is just as important as the strategic material as it shows us PERSON, not GAME. The only bad thing is that we can now add this credential to Steph?Judd's game.

Back at camp, when rafe/jamie were talking, there was barely any underscore - mainly just 'siren' type noises (very faintly, however - nowhere near the magnitude of Gary/Judd's last ep.). I think Rafe got a colouring of that 'predators' edit here, Rafe was planning Jamie's ouster long before it happened. He is calculative and definately has the ability to win.

Back at the reward, and the music became slightly seductive when Danni/Gary were discussing strategy with Judd/Steph. I think they should be given credit for manipulating Steph and helping set up for Rafe's final convincing of Steph to vote out Jamie. Whilst I don't think Rafe and Danni/Gary were working together, I definately feel that Danni/Gary were instrumental in planting the seeds of Jamie's boot. They are a powerful pair.

Segment four
There was 'executioner' sounding music over Gary's "if I don't win IC I'm gone" confessional. Gary has been the executioner in many of the past episodes, he is powerful in this tribe - don't underestimate that. I just think that the drum beats that gave this confessional that 'militant'/'executioner' style were a bit too farsical (spelt right?) - he is earnest, in other words.

Might I say the challenges this season are getting a little tedious? Episode 11 and we are yet to see a solely intellectual challenge. It's getting to me. I still think this is one of the best seasons ever, though.

Segment five
I'll add at this point that they seem to have done away with the woodwind - negative, marimba - positive pattern established in the first half. There is very little melody, as of late, which makes it difficult to interpret some things...

Interesting editing note - Steph looked at Rafe after she said "If you do" to Lydia, she was referring to Rafe, making sure that he's okay with what she's saying - they were communicating with their eyes. These two are deeply intertwined, I think, and could carry each other a very long way.

Tribal Council
AS I suspected, the music that was there LAST TC wasn't there THIS TC, which means the advent of the dormant person has begun (read my post about ep. 9 to get what I'm talking about). We aren't waiting for something to come anymore, it has begun arriving. But WHO is it? Well, characters who took a big leap this episode were:

-Danni (she was more visible and we saw more of her relationship with the environment)
-Gary (he is just growing more than I thought he ever could)
-Cindy (definately ALOT of character development lately, her arc is picking up)
-Rafe (from out of seemingly nowhere comes rafe winning several immunities and playing a very good strategic game. Much different post-merge to pre-merge)

One of these four (as I had suspected) MIGHT be making a long run for home base very soon, it was written all over last episodes TC.

Anyway, that's all for my very long post, hope it was useful somewhat!

Btw, OFG - yes re: four of the final five being girls.

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11-19-05, 03:54 PM (EST)
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90. "Episode 10"
Having reduced the ranks to 8 members, we finally had a chance to see and hear from each survivor. It confirmed our impressions of most but had some interesting surprises for others.
To start with our booted player, we had another example of reality players getting angry at others, forgetting their own actions. Lydia was the target of his last words but he hadn’t included her in his F3 offer to Rafe. Why F3 offer? How stupid can you be? Either offer him F2 or F4 along with Stephenie who he had to know was close to Rafe. F3 automatically meant: “We’ll double team against you for final immunity”. Rafe was honest and smart to ignore that offer.

Gary is very calm and calculating. Without the tribal switch and the run of IC wins by NuNakum, Gary could have easily been the winner. His proposal of “the best going against the best”, shows his competitive background and could have influenced Stephenie if he had somehow included Rafe. He is gone next time he doesn’t have II.

Judd was present in almost every scene and he is quite an entertaining character. This episode showed different sides to him. He tried to be the peacekeeper between Jaime and Gary eventhough Gary didn’t need any help. He had his fun and emotional moments at the reward. We even saw how calculating he could be when he didn’t comment Gary and Danni’s idea to boot Jaime next, how he planned to get rid of them despite their friendliness and how he wanted to reassure Jaime once back in the “hell-hole”. The edit had us think he was very close to Steph. Not being in the loop about the boot was very revealing.

After being hidden so long, this episode showed that Lydia is the dismissable player this year. Hopeless in challenges, she’s even too hesitant to be counted on in tight spots. After all the other players her edit reminded us of, now she’s been compared to Christy who got booted because she couldn’t make up her mind.

Cindy’s character came out fully in this episode. Her dismissal of Jaime when he tried to stir things up because of Gary’s vote showed she can think straight. She stood up to him again when Jaime screamed at her and Lydia during RC and later consoled Lydia. She had a very good showing at IC but fell short. Two images shown during the show made me think that she’ll also come short in the game. When Stephenie presented her with the coffee basket, it made me think: “CONSOLATION PRIZE”. After IC Cindy, the runner, was shown with a bloody knee. The image is more important, I think, than the injury.

Rafe was edited as the star of this episode. Not only did he win IC and tell us exactly why Jaime had to go home but he even had a moment of realization when he mentionned how well he was doing in the challenges and how it can effect the game. He wins immunity that are meaningless to him. Final immunity will be vital. What will he do then? At least now, he (and we!) can have confidence he can do it.

As there ever been a player with so many different skills as Danni? She has good athletic skills (despite that bad IC performance), she has good knowledge of the game, she has led votes, has known when to follow and has made friends with every players in the game (even Blake had nothing negative to say about her) and always has a smile on her face. She’s an “Awesome chick” to quote Stephenie. I think I’ve figured out her edit. Instead of showing all the little things she’s done well up to now, CBS wanted us to point at the RC win as the turning point in the game. That is were she bonded with Stephenie. That will show there are other stars in the show besides the survivors and Jeff. The ones that plan the challenges can claim to have changed the game and just how important those little games can become. Remenber that some survivors were dismissing rewards as meaningless. Nothing builds team spirit better than winning. To that maxim, I would add that very few things build friendship better than competing together.

As VS pointed out last week, Stephenie has again been seen encouraging, congratulating and consoling the others. She congratulated Gary on finding the hidden Idol, consoled him by saying he’d see his family in only 2 more weeks and had compassion for “poor Lydia” after RC. I’ll venture to say they allowed her edit to be negative with her whining earlier on because they knew they had great material coming up later. Standing up to Judd as the previews suggest would probably regain most of the esteem some of us have lost for her. Why she didn’t inform Judd of the Jaime boot will shape the next episodes.

The boot: An editor’s dream.

Since we couldn’t be shown everything, the editors probably had a lot of pleasure during the discussions at camp that led to the Jaime boot. As stated above, Rafe explained clearly why Jaime had to go. I’d guess that watching it on TV, even Jaime had to agree with it. But despite what OFG said, I don’t think the conversation we saw between him and Lydia was the orchestration of that boot but rather the final step. He wouldn’t go after Lydia’s vote first since she along with Judd was closest to Jaime.

So what really happened? I’d say the first step had to be Stephenie telling Rafe that Gary and Danni were voting Jaime and asking him:“Should we do it?”. Rafe would have readily agreed. Next step was getting the 5th vote. Steph probably was the one to talk with Cindy. Rafe the honest guy, must have said: “What about Lydia and Judd?” Stephenie playing hardball could’ve said they don’t need them but Rafe would have proposed to at least let Lydia in on it. Here, I agree with Applejack that a lot of silent communication seems to be occuring between Rafe and Steph. Seeing Lydia hesitating, Rafe signaled to Steph who joined them and said: “We’ll do it if you want to”. If Lydia had said no, I’m sure they wouldn’t have changed their plan.



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11-19-05, 04:06 PM (EST)
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91. "Rafe"
I suddenly became aware of how very well Rafe is playing the game, last night. I'd pondered for a while that he was the senior partner out of him and Steph, despite all appearances to the contrary, and last night cemented it for me.

I don't know quite what happened to give him such a huge upswing for me, but suddenly I have started to believe he is a genius who deserves to win the game. Something in the editing brought me to believe that Rafe is playing one of the best Under The Radar games we've seen; that he is using, to his benefit, other people's preconceptions that he is bound to be a sissy because he's gay, so he does not appear a threat; that he is using Steph's predetermined prominence in the tribe as a human shield; that it is Rafe who has promoted her to such heights of prominence that everyone, players and spoilers alike, think she's in control; but that it is actually Rafe who is calling all the voting shots in the Axis of Evil.

Frankly I don't believe Stephenie is clever enough to do what she's being given credit for. Rafe is the brains; Steph is the brawn in that twosome. I believe he may be very good at manipulating people to think that things were THEIR decisions rather than his. I think he is good at suggesting things to suggestible people. We only think Steph is in charge because (a) letting Steph do all the talking is a huge part of the game Rafe is playing, and (b) it's partly editing, so we get to see Steph being the bad cop and Rafe is always the good cop even when he's voting against his heart. Rafe and Steph as good cop/bad cop, those are the characters they've been given to play, by the editors.

There is no way Stephenie would have chosen not to tell Judd they were voting for Jamie. There is no way she would have willingly risked alienating her loyal lapdog Judd, her F2 partner, whom we know to be volatile and emotional. Rafe would have had to talk her out of it. She would have wanted it both ways -- get rid of Jamie AND have Judd involved. But it would have been too risky to tell Judd they were voting off his "little brother" when they already had the numbers. If Steph insisted on telling Judd and thus risking a potential rebellion led by Judd and Jamie, she'd have outted her F2 commitment to Judd. She had no choice but to keep quiet. That is not the mark of someone who is in charge of her alliance.

Steph's gay slur from a few weeks back has just remembered itself to me. Remember how we all couldn't figure out what it was trying to tell us about Stephenie? Well, it wasn't about her, it was about Rafe, and I think it was foreshadowing that Rafe goes far, far into the game and probably beats Steph in the process. At least, that's what I'd like to see!

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11-19-05, 04:23 PM (EST)
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92. "Ep 10 thoughts"
Those leafcutter ANTS are the start of every show...those enduring hardworking ants...that scurry around almost OUT OF SIGHT....

Interesting first quote from Jamie in a daytime confessional: "I think Gary's shady everybody else thinks he's a good guy--I don't think he really is" and then it's back to nite and Jamie brings up Gary's vote for Cindy who says "It's one vote whoopdedo"

At F5 one votes IS a "whoopdedo"..foreshadowing that she should care and do something about it now rather than later?

Jamie is the only one that we see worrying about Gary and his worries should have been heeded...will they be in Ep. 11 or not?

Jamie and Cindy have another tiff after RC when Cindy refuses to look silly walking thru the mud for no reason when Jamie wants them to finish like the Rope challenge he lost

Best Jiffy quote from RC "Lydia and Cindy you're going to have to move...you're gonna have to MOVE Lydia" Yeah right BAHAWUAHAHAWUAHAAU...in more ways than just in the mud for both of these UTRers

During the copter ride Danni gets a nice T confessional about it being an awesome experience.

Steph--"Danni-she's a cool chick" and "best foursome" to go on reward with

Lydia apologizing and Rafe says it doesn't matter...Jamie just stares..

Rafe is shown as the honest man and playa. can't even swear to F6....it was weird though while the two of them were playing Mancala? or some other game and whispering about the Survivor game--you could hear Lydia and Cindy yakking loudly and it was quite noticeable...was this done this way just to contrast that they weren't playing the Survivor game like Rafe and Jamie just prattling on about nothing oblivious to the game?

Gary was shown playing the game in earnest bc he was the next to go and I agree with AJ..he and Danni were probably more influencial in Steph's decision than Rafe and and def. Lydia were..Steph just will try to use Lydia as the scapegoat for that Jamie vote. But no scapegoat for why Steph did not tell Judd about the vote....he thought Jamie was going nowhere and would only get maybe one vote from Gary...Steph's got a lot of xplainin' to do...but of course she'll be arrogant...

Gary doesn't want anyone to slide by...I like that statement I hate UTR players. Lydia and Cindy both winning if they make it to F2 "Do they deserve it?" gary asks? NO. Another statement of the deserving vs. undeserving theme

Judd was a player too about threats having to go..he was the voice of logic in Ep 10. And he was worried about Jamie with him and Steph sleeping with the enemy. Go figure..that means he's soon to go because he is being rehabilitated. I know after this show, I liked Judd the most I have all season...he's doomed...I really liked Jamie the most I have since really early on pre merge AND pre swap

IC BEST QUOTE OF THE YEAR:

"I forgot about Danni, Danni is on the ground almost OUT OF SIGHT"

Well doesn't this quote sum up her gameplay. I guess I don't see her as a UTR player as much as Cindy and Lydia. That may be bc I see her now as an underdog and trying to make things happen behind the scenes where as Cindy and Lydia have the luxury RIGHT NOW to just yak yak yak about non game issues.

I also liked Judd's "I'm not giving up, I'm trying to figure it out" Like the next few eps. and the game and how to stay in it?

I thought the fact that Cindy JUST edged out Gary...was hilited and then there was some weird ##### moaning from people like in an old spiritual when they showed Gary lost...AJ what does that mean?

Also Jiffy's quote "When Cindy starts to move she flies" Just when will this come to fruition if at all and if so, how far will she fly.. I think past Lydia who seemed to be in the core 3 of the alliance of 6 with Rafe and Steph. Cindy wasn't part of this all but she wasn't shown being told..who told her outside of our view--lydia?

Rafe recognizes he is now a II threat and he should change the way he's playing..Jamie says that Rafe is not the threat now, Gary is and he will be the threat soon enuf...well maybe looking back Jamie should have noticed that Rafe was a threat in both challenges and in gameplay...you know what that all means...when he needs the II he won't get it and it'll be Rob C, Kathy and Ian all over again (I like these 4 all too OFG )

VERY INTERESTING..after Cindy and Jamie talk and Cindy says his paranoia is getting old.. a snake slithers up the rocks and we then se RAFE straight on with a serious face with tongue out and all like a snake and DANNI's profile and she has a little smily smirk on...hmmmmmm....

Then Rafe and Lydia playing UNO? and he tries to get Lydia to talk him into voting off and what does lydia say..."have you talked to steph" THEN LYDIA HAS A D CONFESSIONAL ABOUT JAMIE AND HER BEING THERE FROM DAY 1 which does not bode well for Lydia..her story turned negative last nite, esp. with Jamie's final words. She will go out before Danni and possibly Cindy will move up...will she go before Gary and Judd? probably not but she is not in F3 with Steph and Rafe no way. From last nite we're being shown that SRL is the core 3 of the alliance of 6 but it won't happen for Lydia (like it did for Kim J or Jan)

Steph joins the conversation and says she's ok with Jamie vote but GARY IS A SMOOOOOTH OPERATOR...something akin to Jamie's early "shady" comment but then she also tries to get Lydia to "convince" her to vote Jamie and Steph looks at Rafe knowingly. And WE see Lydia with a very troubled worried face on...Why she didn't go to Jamie and talk to him...he would have promised her F3 with Judd like he did with Rafe and she could have been the swing vote at F5 with Gary and Danni...and they could have voted off Cindy Steph or Rafe...oh well...her gameplay was cowardly I think but probably what she thought WOW Steph and Rafe respect what I think...she was played like a fiddle....

Steph also said a Jamie vote was in her heart...which she acted upon at TC but this will cost her the game--ironic bc she has been playing a smart head game thus far. The vote might not have by itself..but NOT TELLING JUDD did...She lost Judd's vote. Judd I think willl be gone soon bc of the start of his rehabilitatoin of being the logical one in keeping with the plan and voting off the Gary threat and we were meant to feel bad for him by his reaction to the vote and his unawareness of it..we know he gets mad about it in Ep 11 and takes it out on Steph by breaking her Pot in the RC...VS' favorite challenge of the game!!! He will vote for who is sitting next to her and he will tell Jamie it was her and he will lose Jamie's vote...it would seem Jamie blamed Lydia the most but Lydia won't be sitting next to Steph at F2... We all know who BJ is voting for..not Steph...

The editing in Ep 10 solidified it for me that Danni is the winner. THE OUT OF SIGHT QUOTE plus her T confessional about the experience which AJ correctly points out is usually done by the winner plus the snake imagery plus the question Jiffy asked her at TC also was about the RC experience and not strategy.

So in a F2 of Steph v. Danni THE SELF PROSCRIBED TOMBOY--Danni will get the votes of big and young boys BJ/J/J and Steph will most likely get R/C/L's vote...so WHO IS THE POWERFUL DECIDING VOTE??? GARY who we have seen as Tom like in his play but Steph will get back to her "logical" self and boot him soon most likely in Ep 11. Gary's strong play and strong edit does not mean he wins in S11 (bc Tom just did against Steph--ironic if GaryTOm leaves at F7 where Steph did in Palau) but he will be powerful bc his vote will decide this game...and imo he will vote for his comrade in arms at nuYAXHA and whom he fought with as an underdog...Danni.

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11-19-05, 10:12 PM (EST)
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93. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
Again, I extend my apologies if I repeat some of your extremely insightful observations. Many times, my posts following the episode are done and I am ready to post them and lo and behold, your wonderful postings have already been done If you see something that you stated then obviously I am in FULL agreement. I read over your posts just prior to my posting this and we all, generally speaking, seem to be on the same wavelength and once again, please accept my apologies for the LENGTHY POST AHEAD

Well I would certainly say that Jeff's commentary about "lying" has taken off in full force along with the underlying currents and deserving and non deserving that had been introduced some time back. There is still the overriding theme of weak vs. strong as well which is usually a normal part of Survivor.

The magical six as we knew, has officially lost its number So what do we make now of a potential "game changing" situation? Like Australia, this may have been a momentary shift in order to lose someone who was causing problems or this is an event that will have major ramifications. In any event, Rafe's confession last week that he would need to change up the game certainly played out in classic foreshadowing.

Gary has increased in arc way beyond my imagination. The self proclaimed landscaper whose story seemed to only be about a "lie" has been edited to be shown as a major player. He is well received by the stronger alliance BUT there is still NO question that he is an ultimate threat. Gary was a central figure last episode immediately upon the opening of the show until the very end. We were immediately shown the aftermath of Tribal Council and even Jamie's closest friend was supportive of Gary during Jamie's tirade

Judd "I didn't see Gary LYING"

At the reward trip, Gary took the bull by the horns (as we were meant to be shown) by first telling us what his intentions were.

Gary "This is a good time to make ties with Stephenie and Judd. If they shut me down, they do; but I got to try or I'm next to go"

Soon thereafter, we see Gary initiate the conversation (or so we were meant to believe)

Gary "Are you (Judd and Stepheni) happy with what you got now?" and "My thing with you and Danni is take the strongest to the final four who work hard with a good attitude........" ".......If Lydia goes to the final two, she wins..... if Cindy goes... she wins" along with the rationale (again) of DESERVING

We then are told by Gary in confessional "My play was was bringing the best to win......"

Thereafter, who can forget the lovely videotape from his family, which, in reviewing the show, appeared to be the tape that wanted to make the most impact ESPECIALLY with Gary's tearful response to it and Stephenie's comforting him with "You'll be home in two weeks"

Gary narrated the outcome of the visit to us by telling us that "Danni and Stephenie hit it off immediately and Judd had fun so either they take the pitch or not." We also heard several times from Gary himself that if he doesn't win immunity he is gone Obviously, this was meant for the viewing audience as there needed to be a solid candidate against Jamie to go home to enhance the element of surprise at Tribal Council Gary's strategic development over time is not meant to be lost on the other contestants however and this is where editing helps. If Gary were to run over everyone like a speeding train we would not be privy to other commentary from the other players

Jamie "Gary is shady"
Stephenie ".....Gary is smooth operator"

Obviously commentary by Jamie doesn't hold much weight in light of his edit over the last couple of episodes but in light of the fact that the editing has Stephenie as a clear leader and has helped narrate much of the season thus far, her stating he is a smooth operator is supposed to carry some validity This may be hard to believe for those who have become increasingly negative about Stephenie but Stephenie is extremely important to this season and her words are meant to carry some weight and this is evidenced by the mere fact that
Gary IS a smooth operator.

We are being told that by his actions and his own words to us regarding his "plays"

Gary's "play" again, evidenced at Tribal Council stating "Most important thing is positive attitude......what happens, happens"

Gary has been shown throughout this game as upstanding, moralistic, hard working, positive....

Judd"Gary is an amazing person.......he's a MAN'S MAN" THAT statement was NOT good Here we are, a mere season after Tom-a man's man wins this game and we are provided with these very words and in front of the woman who played right alongside with Tom.

Gary has had a wonderful last half edit and surprising in light of the flatness he received the first half of the show. That major spike alone is disconcerting in it of itself. Couple that with the heartfelt video and prior words of Rafe that "the leader gets voted out first......Gary is the leader no question" Gary is receiving his finest edit yet which also screams that it is coming to a close shortly. We went from an edit consisting of a "football" lie to someone whose arc has reached huge proportions. From prior seasons, we know "generally speaking" someone who has had a relatively low edit to huge spikes is not a good sign. The most promising edits (so to speak) are ones that are a gradual build up or consistent. This edit is not consistent with the "I've got to keep a low key" per Gary.

Lydia This edit is an easy one and one that we have pretty much agreed upon in light of the vast differences from early on to the past couple of episodes. Lydia had a bump in facetime and edit this episode where prior to that she was completely invisible and that includes visual shots.

Lydia's biggest crowning glory was her ineptitude at the reward challenge In actuality, we were shown more visually than by the other players how weak she was in the challenge. Constant shots of her sludging through the mud, falling behind as consistently narrated by Jeff were by far what showed us how "weak" Lydia truly is. The irony is that we were not nearly made to feel by the other players that she was a failure. Past players have been BOOTED for horrendous challenge display and yet we even hear:

Stephenie "Lydia must be so down on herself, I can't imagine" along with the exchange between Lydia and Rafe with Jamie's sullen face. The conversation between Lydia and Rafe did not lend itself to the extreme footage we saw at the challenge; she was complimentary of how Rafe and Jamie performed, felt badly but they ended the conversation in laughter The interesting shot was Jamie's negative visuals during the conversation which leads one to believe they were purposely edited in to show a negative reaction about Lydia's performance BUT they were coming from Jamie who is meant to NOT be well received by the audience therefore it doesn't invite agreement by the audience

Later, and interestingly enough, Lydia was approached by Rafe regarding voting out Jamie

Lydia "I don't know what to say; this is a hard DECISION (as if we are meant to believe she has any decision making power?) and in turn, Stephenie joins them whereupon Rafe mentions same to Stephenie which ultimately ends with:

Stephenie to Lydia "If YOU do" (Oh, she must have decision making power, STEPHENIE of all people will agree if LYDIA does)

Obviously, Lydia had NOTHING to do with the ultimate decision here; neither Rafe or Stephenie needed her since we heard that Cindy was progressively annoyed by him, Danni and Gary needed this vote and Stephenie and Rafe were both contemplating this for quite some time. Again, heavily edited footage in the progression of how Jamie ended up leaving that night but we were MEANT to to think that Lydia's agreement sealed Jamie's fate (and thus, not quite as sympathetic). In reality, we know this cannot be true as Lydia is simply a tool being used much like we knew Caryn was last season. These players are perfect contestants to help others get to the end game. They are an extra vote and loyal to those who have the power

We were even graced with a lovely shot of Lydia at Tribal Council almost appearing to be the one who sealed Jamie's fate followed by those words by Jamie how disappointed in Lydia he was. We all agreed that Lydia's stellar edit early on was completely by design since she was in danger and therefore her providing,enthusiasm and heart had to be shown in order to establish why she was staying ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that perceived weak people were being booted After that, Lydia's edit went down to almost invisibility until last episode. With this bump now in her edit, it is suggestive we will begin to see the beginning of the end with Lydia

Cindy We have seen the increasing progession of Cindy's edit over time which we know bodes well for someone. A nice increase with no sudden disappearances are major showings bodes well for longevity and Cindy has certainly done this. All of Cindy's face time was edited to be received postively by the audience especially since most of it had to do with Jamie.

Cindy "He came to me and said guess who wrote your name down; he is trying to get me to have bitter feelings. He doesn't think before he starts an argument......." and "He just doesn't know when to be quiet; it's getting old"

Considering any negative commentary coming from Cindy was in direct correlation to Jamie it was accepted and agreed with. This is further edited with the warm feelings she expressed for the coffee that Stephenie and company presented her What is most interesting about Cindy is we hear quite a lot from her regarding the specific EVENTS that are occurring and the audience is meant to agree with her (recall her past commentary about Judd) While Brandon appeared to be the eyes for the audience, Cindy appears to be the EARS for audience. What she HEARS and is expressed is what the audience is supposed to hear also much like what Brandon SAW we were meant to see.

While I have enjoyed Cindy's edit tremendously (and the challenge imagery and commentary is below which was VERY expressive) I'm not entirely sure about her because of this. I would feel more positive about her as potential winner if we either heard from her what she needs to do to win a millions OR hear from her about her vulnerability. Instead, we hear from her about the occurrences that are important and the audience is meant to nod their heads along with her. Editing is tricky with this type of characterization. I hesitate with Cindy somewhat though

Interesting that Cindy was part of the magical six rebellion yet we know nothing about it since we were last shown Cindy telling Jamie "why screw it up?"

Judd Why, Judd, you seemed relatively human! Judd certainly has had a whirlwind edit hasn't he. Major outbursts, drunken moments, a bull at challenges, comical (and naked as well ) and this week softened AND somewhat sympathetic in light of the fact that remained firm with the magical six and yet told us and Jeff how highly he regarded our two underdogs and he was then left out of the loop

Judd "Forget it Jamie!" (regarding the fight with Gary)
Judd "Sometimes this game wrenches you a bit and getting rid of them (Danni/Gary) would do that but that is how you get far in the game and "Bonding with them is not going to affect me, I know what my game plan is"
Judd "Seeing my wife, daughter...... better than steak and eggs any morning" (softening)
Judd "Back to the hell hole!" (coming from JUDD, this actually means something since Judd has contributed his fair share of making it hell for some people - softening)

Later, we hear from Judd regarding Jamie's state of mind and how he doesn't want to fuel any more fire......

Judd ".......was only concerned about Jamie, I didn't know how he would react with me and Stephenie going away. I didn't want him to think we made any alliances leading to "Not a peep" (to Jamie regarding Jamie asking about any strategy talk)In light of the fact we find out LATER that Judd was not included in the change in plans, Judd's decision to keep Jamie in the dark was his continuing playing the game to keep his six together. If Judd were to tell Jamie there was discussion the increasing paranoia that Judd and others told us about would have reached horrific proportions. I am hazarding a guess that Judd simply lied to Jamie in order to keep Jamie from exploding and leading to an easy boot

Judd's plan did not change as he told us:

Judd".....voting for Gary; Jamie is not going anywhere.........."

And at Tribal Council, wonderful words he stated about Gary who the audience has grown to appreciate as a player.

Judd is truly an editor's dream come true with his amazing characterization Obviously the events happened but Judd is SHOWCASED in every way possible during these events even further by particular commentary punctuated by visual shots (and aj will no doubt attest to music as well )

Judd had a much softer tone throughout this episode that relatively began with his comical edit last episode; however, one can't hide Judd's STRONG personality and what occurred last episode will not be taken lightly by him. I also go back to Bobby Jon's (perhaps?)prophetic words which would be classic foreshadowing.........

Bobby Jon to Jamie and Judd: "I know alliances and promises have been made but dude she'll break them"

Danni I have made no bones (and stubborn ones at that ) since episode one how I felt about Danni's edit. My speculation on editing is merely that and in the world of observation, I again point out one may see the thorns on a rose and others may see the blossoms. My motto (as forehead well knows) is "sink or swim" and unless or until I see massive classic changes in an edit, I tend to stay with my initial instinct. With the exception of Gary, I must, however, lend a round of applause to all of us who contribute in this thread as we identified many of the characters that had the longevity we aim to flesh out. It is always a pleasure playing with you

What I found most suspicious about Danni this episode was the complete lack of vulnerability heard from her by way of confessional. It stands to reason that she would be letting us know that she feels concern about her situation much like we heard from Gary, yes? Yet, we not only heard nothing in that regard but we have yet to hear her strategy though we have seen subtle hints of it throughout the season. We know she was integral in several dynamics that occurred. Danni has also encompassed the thematics of this season with her being included in the "deserving" area and interestingly enough she has shown to be quite honest (as a direct contradiction to the "lies" we have been saturated with as another offshoot of this season) We essentially heard from Danni during the reward overnight stay but the event DID happen therefore it would only be appropriate we heard from her regarding the helicopter ride, looking in a mirror, eating and her enjoyment at seeing her pet's videotape. Interestingly enough, during the discussion that Gary was shown to initiate, Danni was shown to emphatically state "Jamie" immediately after Stephenie posed the question as to who they would boot off Stephenie had obviously very positive words about Danni:

Stephenie"I would not have gone with any other people but these three. Danni and I very similar; she is a cool chick...."

Again, much like her edit has been throughout the season, Danni is not heard from directly much but she is seen consistently and always appears to be shown during telling comments or when she really should not be shown visually. The fact of the matter is Danni was established almost immediately as someone with longevity with a seemingly very low key, mild edit. In some manner that we have been discussing all this time, it has been an edit that has sustained this far. Make no mistake also that as much as what we saw of Gary putting the wheels in motion, I have no doubt that Danni was equally as integral

Rafe Rafe by our initial editing standards was deemed to do well with longevity as he has been a consistent narrator, relating well with everyone and seemingly non threatening. Over the last two episodes, Rafe is also being fleshed out more as a perceived strategy force. Rafe told us "HE was going to have to change up the game" and lo and behold, the game did indeed change. Rafe, again, was extremely integral this episode and we were made to believe that Rafe was the key factor in the FINAL turn of events especially in light of the fact that Rafe was probably the most remembered contestant living Jamie's paranoia Cindy commented on the events, Judd was concerned relative to the "plan", Lydia felt guilty and Stephenie's annoyance at Jamie was on a personal level whereas Rafe was shown in two fleshed out dialogues with Jamie this episode as a continuation from last week (I do have to state that the entire situation comprising of the strategy session on the reward along with Rafe/Lydia and then Stephenie's conversation was manipulated and edited in varying degrees)

Jamie "It's me, you and Judd in final three....." (and we know how statements like that do not come to fruition)
Rafe "Okay......"
Jamie "Swear"
Rafe "I don't feel good giving you my word......." ".......I can't swear after thinking for five minutes!"
Rafe confessional "Jamie is losing it.....the game is getting to him......."

and later.........

Jamie "There is nothing to worry about, right?"
Rafe "I don't think so.... you are constantly asking me!"
Jamie "I need to know you are on track"
Rafe "If you ask me again, I might vote you! (laughingly)"

Couple the above scenes with the discussion supposedly initiated by Rafe to Lydia and then Stephenie, clearly the audience is meant to feel that Rafe has organized this situation and with due cause. Rafe is clearly sympathized with when, in perhaps different circumstances and a different season, Rafe's action of turning against his alliance mate may not have been as well received by the audience. Rafe was never shown making a promise last episode, he was clearly shown to be uncomfortable and Jamie's rise in his paranoia edit was more about being supportive of a "move" that in other seasons would have been deemed disloyal. Where Cindy stated the occurrences, Rafe helped us to live it with him. Even Cindy's last discussion with Jamie was matter of fact whereas Rafe's demeanor was felt immensely.

This is not ALL we are seeing of Rafe as he tells us.........

Rafe "I've won two and finished second...I just made myself a huge threat and may have to change how I play" (I had mentioned awhile back and OFG may not have read it so I will repeat what I had said (I know I know ) I had started off the season believing a woman would win this season therefore, like my ending players, I am loathe to change; Rafe, however has shown a very substantial edit and if a man were to win, he would most certainly be the contender)

I firmly believe, in light of Rafe's intelligence, that HE chose Stephenie as opposed to Stephenie choosing him. We discussed prior to the season starting how these players would think about Stephenie and Bobby Jon and how long they would allow them to play. Rafe obviously chose the route that many of us felt - that a good case could be made to NOT let Stephenie and Bobby Jon win the money and therefore, a good final two opponent much like Lillian's ghost

Rafe's only problem now is what he stated - that he is making himself a threat Being superior of the mind is MUCH easier to disguise especially with those who view "strong" players in the physical sense. Rafe has now entered another dimension to his story but since all things relate to Stephenie, I would suspect she is part of this story

Stephenie In yet another episode, Stephenie's characterization was softened

Stephenie"This was the best foursome to go on reward with" (comment especially accepted because Gary and Danni are likeable people) and "Lydia must be so down on herself......" and "You'll be home in two weeks" (comforting Gary) and"We brought coffee back, Cindy is a huge coffee fan, her eyes lit up" and "Okay, that is what my HEART says" (about voting off Jamie and the audience can only agree at this point) along with her pointed remark to Lydia which implies that she is not the one to break up the alliance

Obviously we have known for quite some time that Stephenie is pivotal to this season of Survivor and she is directly involved in almost all of the situations, and in fact, Stephenie was still shown to be perceived as the leader (despite contention that perhaps Rafe, Gary and Danni had more of a hand it; we won't know this until the game is over and it will be interesting to see exactly how the Jamie boot progressed)

Jamie"Rafe is Stephenie's lap dog"
Lydia "Did you talk to Stephenie?" (to Rafe regarding Jamie)

coupled with the mere fact that Gary/Danni are shown to bring up breaking up the six to Stephenie; we see Stephenie see the "logic" although a bit "iffy" Judd, on the other hand is shown to be against this idea which then leads to Rafe and Lydia asking Stephenie about voting out Jamie which all comes after the "bonding" Stephenie had with Danni and Gary leading to a Jamie boot. At this time, Stephenie is STILL being made out to be the one in control of this tribe

The Quotes and Visuals (added in that I most definitely see that the collective ALSO took note )

Howling monkey Again shown after Judd upon his stating Jamie is losing it. Recall Cindy's words about the monkey being alone in the jungle (symbolic now of Judd's position?)

Green snake again shown this episode in conjunction with Rafe

Cindy "It's one vote, what is the big deal" (numbers mentioned ALWAYS give me pause)

Reward Challenge
Jeff "Strategy comes into play, working together" (Interesting in that Danni/Stephenie finished it together)
Jeff "Gary and Judd trying to hang on"
Jeff "Lydia is struggling"
Jeff "Danni and Stephenie are taking over"
Jeff "Lydia really slowing them down, dig deep"
Jeff "Cindy and Lydia not quitting"
Jeff "Let's go women, move!" (regarding Cindy and Lydia)
Jeff "Danni and Stephenie ahead but Stephenie falls down..."
Cindy "They already won (Jamie) there is nothing we can do about it"

Immunity Challenge
Jeff "First person wins immunity; 1 in 7 shot for one million dollars" (the camera pans to Danni who is smiling/giddy)
Jeff "Gary is wasting no time" (as evidenced)
Jeff "I forgot about Danni, almost on the ground, out of sight" (Edited to add that I see this was mentioned
Jeff "Judd, giving up" and Judd"Not giving up, trying to figure it out" (very relative to the story and I see also mentioned)
Jeff "Jamie and Rafe fighting it out!"
Jeff "Gary is trying to figure out where is stuck"
Jeff "Cindy edges out Gary!"
Jeff "When Cindy starts to move, she flies!" (Edited to add I see this noted as well)
Jeff "It's Cindy's to lose now......."
Jeff "Cindy is stuck, she lost her lead"

Ah yes, emy, my favorite challenge and one that is designed solely for its revelations. This is a curious group; we see shimmers and shadows of who is with who but there is a feeling hovering that we are not being shown subsections and THOSE are the ones that may be the most powerful!

Jeff's always telling words "Jamie gave you the best advise (regarding blindsiding). Who you share information with and who shares it with you is critical; consider that a gift" (As always, pay heed to Jeff's closing remarks; they have been EXTREMELY relevant this season)


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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
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11-20-05, 01:32 PM (EST)
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94. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
Great stuff as always, VS.

Regarding your very last point, Jeff's closing remarks. He said something before the merge to one of the tribes that holds true after the merge too, and I think is actually emblematic of the whole season. It's also one of the times when I felt Jeff's comments were overdubbed AFTER the event -- in other words it somehow struck me that he didn't say these words to the players at all, that it was added afterwards in editing. And the more I think about it, the more it seems to be that a lot of Jeff's commentary seems to be overdubbed. Especially during the challenges, where we SEE very little of Jeff, but HEAR him all the time. I think the editors use these opportunities to drop in some thematic post-production soundbites that help to develop the plot.

Way back in the mists of time before the merge, Jeff was heard saying at the end of Tribal Council:

"Voting based on physical strength can be risky."

This applied before the merge AND it applies AFTER the merge. He didn't say "Voting out the physically weak can be risky" (which is what they were doing at the time) and so now this comment has meaning after the merge too, where they are obviously voting based on physical strength just like they were before the merge, but now it's the strong who are going and not the weak. This gives me vibes that someone who is NOT perceived to be a physical threat is going to win this.

Which brings me to Cindy. Cindy has a compact little engine of a body and a certain gritty determination about her but she's about as UTR as it gets. She lies low and lets it all wash over her rather than getting involved in the drama; I remember several instances where one of the Bully players has goaded her about something and she has resolutely refused to be drawn into a fight. You can almost SEE the words going through her mind, "Keep your mouth shut. Don't respond. Don't give him the fight he's looking for." The only time she has ever been shown to be irked by one of the Bullies was this last episode in which she talked back to Jamie when he was nagging her and Lydia to finish the challenge. And with this being Jamie's boot episode, of course Cindy being shown to shut him up can be marked up as a positive for her -- perhaps even the beginning of her emergence as a force to be reckoned with?

There was a particular shot of Cindy that my mind keeps going back to. It was after a Tribal immunity challenge and she was handed the Idol. There was something about the way she cradled the Idol, looking almost jealously possessive of it, that makes me think she may win a key immunity down the line.

The edits I am enjoying most at the moment are definitely Rafe and Cindy. Those two are the most mysterious and compelling characters, to me -- the ones that entice me to wonder what may happen with their stories next.

Danni, on the other hand, just seems flat, to me. As much as I feel I ought to like her and root for her because players keep saying she's a cool chick, I just cannot seem to get behind her. She doesn't ever seem to do or say anything that excites my support for her. For the most part, it seems to me that footage of Danni falls into the category of "It's part of the actual gameplay and therefore has to be shown" such as her performing in challenges and her being on a reward trip. There seems to be very little "discretionary" footage of Danni, i.e. footage that the editors didn't HAVE to include, but WANTED to, because it contributed to the overall character they are portraying with her. The times when Danni seems at her best is when other players are commenting about her. If, as VS proposes, Danni somehow manages to win this, then really all we are being given thus far to back up her "deservingness" is that she's a cool chick, and I dunno if that's enough.

Gary is very enjoyable to watch, and like Cindy has been on my personal popularity list since Day 1. I can't help but think that this last episode was his swan song, though. I know we got so much Gary this time because he was the misdirection for the Jamie boot, so we can't simply say "the rise in face time indicates he's next to go," but I do tend to think the boot misdirection and the rise in face time are simply two sides of the same coin -- that Gary is going to Loser Lodge very soon.

Lydia -- well, I really have nothing to say about Lydia. She's an expendable third vote with Rafe and Stephenie. Steph has kept her close since Lydia's very first words to Steph which were something like "Ooooh, I love you, you're the reason I'm here playing the game." Once there is no reason for Lydia to stay in the game, she will be gone, and nobody will care.

Judd got a lot of softening last night but he is still a player we love to hate. As VS says, this is an editor's dream. I'm sure they had more people working on the Judd editing this season than on the rest of them put together! He keeps on giving us such entertaining TV. We are being led to believe that next week Judd's reaction to being excluded from the Jamie vote will cause major problems which threaten the remaining alliance of five. Another change-up in the game is being suggested for next week, and the question seems to be whether Stephenie will lose her close connection with Judd. If that happens, I would expect a Judd boot the week after.

Stephenie, ugh. All I have to say about her is that she started the season with a huge 45% popularity rating on the CBS viewer voting website, but has plummeted 20 points to her current standing of 25%. This is still high, but she's going in the wrong direction in leaps and bounds. Her initial popularity was based on high expectations from viewers after her incredibly sympathetic edit last season, and viewers are disappointed by her more and more every week. She is still the most popular player remaining in the game, but that downward trend looks bad for her.

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redbeard103152 466 desperate attention whore postings
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11-20-05, 08:52 PM (EST)
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95. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
Loquatrix, I see Cindy in much the same way as you do.She will be around for quite awhile and in a way I see her as the anti-Rafe. Rafe gets along with everyone very well and everyone is going to him to ask where they lie in the pecking order. Cindy on the other hand is being painted as a loner, very much under the radar, and at the tail end of any alliance that she may have been in. No one seems to pay much attention to her, they see her as a pawn to get rid of whenever they wish.She is in a good position right now, not much of a threat to the top dogs and not near the top of anyones boot lists.I see her getting into the final four where by winning key immunity challenges you can really shake up the plans of the major players. Her story has just begun...RedBeard
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Goblin 24 desperate attention whore postings
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11-21-05, 02:21 PM (EST)
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96. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
This is such a great thread. This is the first season I've actually read through it and am amazed at how correct you all are in your observations.

I have a question for you experts:

Last week we say Steph braiding Danni's hair: It seems that in so many Survivors you see this hair braiding scene - Do you think it portends anything or is it just to show bonding between the braider and the braidee?

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-21-05, 04:14 PM (EST)
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98. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
>>is it just to show bonding between the braider and the braidee?

What does it show about me that I read this as:
is it just to show bondage between the braider and the braidee?

From the first Survivor the editors have liked to show footage of women grooming each other. Last night I was watching the F5 ep of Borneo, after the mud challenge, Sue and Kelly were out in the water cleaning each other and Hatch commented on the mysterious ways of women who had totally been fighting and were now washing each other (and squeezing zits, ew). After that scene, Kelly and Sue agreed they would be civil and still try to boot each other.

Tina braided Amber's hair. She also cut Amber out of the game. So I think in the past we've been shown that girls bond this way but then turn around and compete and backstab. It's a behavior that's part of compartmentalizing game from social bonds.

OTOH, when Amy braided Twila's hair she was trying to integrate Twila into the girlie group. But Amy was an unusual example of a player who consciously used the power of rituals to cement her group.

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getting real 1 desperate attention whore postings
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11-21-05, 08:55 PM (EST)
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99. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
_____________________________________________

is it just to show bondage between the braider and the braidee?

_____________________________________________


Are you suggesting that Steph is being edited to highlight sado-masochistic tendencies? Perhaps a whip would also be useful in her relationships?

Seriously, though, the 'braiding scenes' seem to highlight a range of relationships. Sandra and Christa as well as many others also had similar scenes. In the case of Seph and Danni, I suspect they're being 'groomed' to show their realationship as strong, dynamic women. I believe that this connection and eventual showdown between strong women will ultimately prove to be the theme of this season, especially after the recent disasters (from a female perspective) of Vanuatu and Katie. I also believe that Danni will be shown to have been more 'deserving' because she has endured through more difficult obstacles.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-05, 11:01 AM (EST)
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100. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
Loquatrix, I readily agree with you regarding the absence of potentially character/story building information on Danni; my "editing concerns" (if you will) have tapped into that at this juncture though I usually wait until the "pecking order" challenge to firm up on my initial selection as that episode not only solidifies how vulnerable the vulnerable are but fleshes out who stands where in the (perceived) strong alliance.

I did take note (especially with the last episode where it was practically crucial we would hear from Danni about her vulnerability in light of her position near bottom with Gary) that Danni was not shown expressing herself in any way about this whereas Gary was the focus of all the discussion (through him and by others)and this was something that I took note of with Brian when we should have heard from him about his vulnerability.

Obviously we were not privy to anything Danni had to say (or maybe discuss with anyone) and it may be a benign reason though in light of the relationship that developed with Stephenie and Danni, I am suspicious if Danni had more involvement (as she did with the pre-merge boots).

As we discussed (and you so succinctly broke down) what is left OUT of the show can be as relevant as what is put IN the show. Gary's character being the central focus would lend credence to his character being escalated for a final run (interesting how the football lie is nowhere to be found anymore ) Why would Danni NOT be shown in potentially amazing strategic play? I do not know So again, I completely agree with your points.

In fairness to the direction of the show and what we attempt to do in this thread, I am never hesitant in expressing how OTHER characters are growing or escalating or presenting themselves if I see them being fleshed out so while I do have questions on what is going on (or not going on) with Danni's edit at this juncture, in fairness also to this thread, if I do make a proposal of those I see at end game, I will stick to my decision although I know that a lot of posters would rather wait until further in the series and just post on the characters and their editing and the stories/themes, etc. along the way.

We have a lot of opinions going on regarding the remaining players and I love reading how everyone is viewing the players this season. I was planning on waiting for our usual final four situation to begin a new thread unless everyone would like a fresh one (as rosie states: clean sheets )

I have yet one more question for everyone as it lends to my thoughts (long ones) below and where all the editing lovers perspectives come from.

Do you believe that every season of Survivor gives the audience a "winner's edit" or rather edits the season to reflect the outcome? (Outcome does not necessarily mean the winner himself/herself but rather all the events that lead in that direction, themes involved, etc.)

One of the most frustrating and wonderul things about this show is the ability to completely mystify the audience on the outcome. The contention of a "winner edit" is a long debated one. Some believe the show is based solely around the winner and others feel that sometimes the winner simply justifies the means of the story as pinpointing "a winner's edit" is comparing apples to oranges and viewer's perceptions of what a winner should "look" like is different to someone else's views. In a Vecepia win, Kathy generally had the audience favorable as winner. In a Tina win, some thought for sure that Lis would come back as the underdog heroine and pull it out and so forth.

We have a winner and we have a final two and we have characters throughout. The show is edited thereafter with the final people left. Some (as in the case of Katie vs. Tom) it is almost a foregone conclusion who would win so the show appears to be "top heavy" in negative and positive edits. Other "wins" such as Vecepia or Brian or Jenna or Chris were probably a bit harder to discern in light of their final two partner so it is possible/probable the edits were "tweaked" a bit to even the playing field and allow the editors to be justified in the event the OTHER person wins. Neleh was shown in a more sneaky way (and race and religion was at the forefront), Brian was most definitely given horrifically arrogant moments (to perhaps soften the Clay win should that have happened while old vs. young was prevalent), Matthew's edit became rather strange while Jenna's softened (to compensate Jenna's victory also intertwined with women vs. men) and so forth.

We are not meant to make comparisons to other seasons though ultimately it tends to happen such as "Rafe is being shown too nice like (fill in the blank) to be the winner" and "Danni (or Cindy) is not being shown enough like Vecepia to be the winner" and every season I try to stop myself from thinking that way. Very difficult work!

As to the remaining players....

We already knew Rafe would be there for the duration; it was quite evident (even from the first episode as he was the narrator of his first tribe) and ESPECIALLY when he failed miserably at one of the earlier challenges and no mention was made on his essentially causing the loss. With all potential winners, I do check to see where there is a point when we hear or see a measure of their vulnerability or game strategy and Rafe has been shown to the audience demonstrating that and his "Axis of Evil" story (of which he committed himself to the greater good with Jamie's exit) could be construed as end game OR just attempts to help highlight the "deserving" theme this season.

Stephenie's edit has probably had the most facets involved (and I believe this in spite or despite her returning player status and, in fact, we knew she would be end game since Bobby Jon did NOT get the same edit) I still feel very secure she is an end game player. Her editing immediately made us notice this and it has developed further. Stephenie is NOT the audience's most popular person (which is actually quite good in this case as we know) Her last few episodes have shown some toning down mingled with the overall edit and the mere fact that she is a returning player has to be attractive to the other players as good argument as to why she shouldn't or DESERVES to win. This was established in the first episode by Stephenie and by others so I am still very favorable about her edit.

Judd's "softening" if you will has a different quality to it than the moments that Stephenie seems softened. It may be something that I cannot even put a finger on but there is a difference. Though I try not to make character comparisons from other seasons because EVERY season is different, I would equate Judd's softening to Robb and Stephenie's to Jenna. There is more of a finality quality to Judd's where Stephenie's appears to be more dimensional. The contrast is much greater with Judd which usually makes me suspicious.

Cindy's edit has most definitely developed. We have seen this readily and as I mentioned before, she definitely has been the voice of the events and it is no secret that her challenge performances have not gone unnoticed. What I find interesting and perplexing about Cindy is that (while) her STATEMENTS are game oriented, they are never referable to HER. For example she states (about locating the hidden idol) "Finding (the idol) is huge for anyone, it can almost guarantee yourself final four"

My confusion about Cindy is, again, she explains the events to us but there seems to be lack of personal investment in her dialogue; the situations she discuss seem to embody the general tone of the tribe and how EVERYONE is affected. Judd's tirades annoyed everyone, Jamie's paranoia is bugging everyone, finding the idol is huge for anyone, everyone will be a liar by the end of the game. I write down dialogue constantly and my main recollection of anything really PERSONAL coming from Cindy was when she felt the tribe didn't appreciate her competing in the immunity challenge along with Judd.

However, I certainly have no issue making a case for Cindy since there has been a female tone to this season and I intend to stay that course as well.

Lydia on the other hand had way too much spacing between her visibility and the visibility we are now being shown. I am more inclined to view someone who has been lower key through the entire season as an end player than someone whose visibility was over the top to non existent. The events dictated Lydia's high visibility as she was a main target contender early on and since she has made it far into the game, she was edited EXTREMELY positive (to combat other boot selections) so the audience would accept the decision. If Lydia was not shown as a provider or a positive person and likeable the audience may have been very dissatisfied that she did not get booted. I have no doubt that Lydia is a tool and once a tool is no longer useful, it gets discarded.

I trust and hope everyone has a wonderful holiday in any way that it is celebrated and I expect many turkey hangovers on Friday!


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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-05, 02:31 PM (EST)
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101. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
Do you believe that every season of Survivor gives the audience a "winner's edit" or rather edits the season to reflect the outcome?

Great question, VS, and I think it raises the question, that is, "What exactly IS a 'winner's edit'?"

I'm not sure I ever knew what a winner's edit is! The winners are all so different and their storylines are edited only in the context of their own season, so there are different prevailing factors for each and every group of castaways.

It's not a question of making the Sole Survivor appear deserving of the win, because everyone has a different definition of what "deserving" means. Some people think "deserving" means a likeable personality. Some people think "deserving" means an immunity hog or a person who could actually survive alone in the jungle. Some people think "deserving" means an underdog who somehow scrambles all the way to the end. This is why, when we do our Rank The Winners lists, everyone's list is different!

For me, if there's any such thing as a "winner's edit" it is this: It is an edit that shows the winner outwitting, outplaying and outlasting the others. It's an edit that leaves the viewer saying, "Well, I may not LIKE this winner, but looking back over the season, I can understand how s/he won."

The editors know that the winner can't be EVERYBODY's favourite because we're all different and we all see different things that we like and dislike in the competitors. When all is said and done, all the editors can realistically shoot for is a sense of satisfaction in the audience overall so that, while any one person's individual favourite may not have won, each of us can look back over the season and say, "Fair enough. S/he DID in some way outwit, outplay and outlast everyone else."

All the winners have played very different games because they're playing within the context of their own seasons. It is folly, really, to compare players and edits across different seasons; apples and oranges. And some of them outwit, outplay and outlast in equal measure, playing a very rounded game that is not outstanding in any one department (Daugherty falls into this category for me); others play a game that is heavier on outwitting (Hatch), or heavier on outplaying (Westman). All winners outlast everyone else by definition, but even then, some people (Diaz-Twine) come along to play the Outlast hand heavier than Outwit or Outplay.

So for me, if there is a "winner's edit," then it would be an edit that shows the eventual winner doing all of the above in some measure, or doing a LOT of the thing they specialize in, just so the audience can eventually say, "Fair enough. This outcome does make sense, even if I don't personally like the winner."

Overall, though, I tend to think the editing is more the story of the Final Three than it is the story of the Sole Survivor. The audience needs to understand how those three people got to be where they're sitting; once they're there, we all know it could really go in any direction based on deals being made in final immunities, etc etc. So I try to remember that we're looking for the candidates we can understand being in the Final Three, rather than looking for just the one winner, with the knowledge that anything could happen in the last hour-long segment AND with the knowledge that it's almost impossible to predict whom the jury will vote for in the end.

In other words, to answer your question, I think the editing reflects something bigger than just the winner; it encapsulates the themes of the season and explains how we got to where we did, rather than just trying to make us climb aboard the fan bandwagon of the one person who eventually wins.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-05, 07:05 PM (EST)
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102. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
LAST EDITED ON 11-23-05 AT 07:09 PM (EST)

VS, this little extra reflection between shows is extremely interesting. I have 2 points regarding what you wrote:
1- I would say the editors don't wait for the finale before reading the votes so I don't think they have to "even the playing field in case the other person wins".

2-You write that Stephenie isn't the audience's most popular person and this is certainly true for us here but in the CBS.com poll she has been #1 from the start.

I agree with most everything Loquatrix put in his reply, except maybe I would have said the edit is about the Final 4 (CBS being the ones presenting March Madness!!).

I would add however that Pearl Island can give us the best answer for the winner's edit. Here we had possibly the biggest "Hero", Rupert and the worst "Vilain", Johnny Fairplay. The story practically told itself without any help. As the winner Sandra didn't do much, but she was constantly shown and constantly going forward. So unless the winner is someone like Tom, the edit isn't over the top but has consistency.

So what about this year? At the start, we had 3 "stars", (Steph, BJ and an NFL QB). In addition we saw two vilains appear (Jamie and Judd). The storyline is there for the audience to see, there is no need to develop negativity in any characters or try to create a hero. Like I wrote in my earlier post, I think Danni's edit is kept low key so that we can point to the RC win as the turning point in her season. She bonded with Steph, was presented as if she planted the idea of booting Jamie and we saw how friendly she is with everyone.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-05, 09:06 PM (EST)
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103. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"
Thank you both for your thoughts on this matter. michel, I tend to interject with questions as the season starts to come to a close as I find it helpful so you may see more of this

Of course Stephenie is not popular to those of us who dissect the show and notice the big difference in her edit. The popularity of Stephenie to the general audience is not surprising that it is the highest; they are marketing her fully as someone they know was extremely popular. Much like Rupert, his popularity was still the highest at All Stars yet he was NOT viewed by us as the same person. People are creature of habits and someone liked and familiar tend to stay that way in spite of some differences to their personality. *They* still see Stephenie as a strong, pretty female who had bad luck last season and are glad she got another chance. However I would hazard a guess that even members of the general audience may not find her AS appealing as last season?

I cannot speak for the editors so I do not know PRECISELY when they edit the show. It is suggestive that they do much of the editing when the final two are in place. Regardless if they knew who won, they are adjusting the edits of these final players to even the playing field or there would be absolutely NO element of surprise or a grudging nod that at least the "lesser of two evils" won. In the case of Tom and Katie, it wasn't that hard to do

As you know, you certainly don't have to sell Danni to me However, as I had stated in light of Loquatrix's post, in fairness, I have to be objective in noticing her edit as well.

I'm glad to see that both of you tend to lean towards the ideal of how the show is edited as opposed to the term "winners edit" This view tends to distort thinking outside the box because viewers like us are looking for a formula on how the winner is portrayed when the events surrounding and leading up to the win have a bigger impact as a collective.


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Surviette 124 desperate attention whore postings
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11-21-05, 02:43 PM (EST)
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97. "RE: Ep 10 thoughts"

>
>Well I would certainly say that
>Jeff's commentary about "lying" has
>taken off in full force
>along with the underlying currents
>and deserving and non deserving
>that had been introduced some
>time back.

"My thing with
>you and Danni is take
>the strongest to the final
>four who work hard with
>a good attitude........" ".......If Lydia
>goes to the final two,
>she wins..... if Cindy goes...
>she wins" along with the
>rationale (again) of DESERVING

Danni has also encompassed
>the thematics of this season
>with her being included in
>the "deserving" area and interestingly
>enough she has shown to
>be quite honest (as a
>direct contradiction to the "lies"
>we have been saturated with
>as another offshoot of this
>season) >

Thanks VS! I share your thoughts about Danni's character being
shown in direct contrast to the lies, especially in this episode.

Jamie: Although we're never clear that he's a liar, certainly most of the players couldn't trust him. I feel he was a victim of "Never Cry Wolf". When Jamie really needed everyone to believe him, they wouldn't. He was also ousted bc of his negative attitude, which placed him in the nondeserving camp.

Gary: Places himself in the deserving, strong top 4. However, he
is seen as "shady" to the viewer as he announces the idol was
"AT" the Seba Tree. Jamie tries to reveal Gary as a lying threat
but noone will believe him.

Judd: Gary deems Judd deserving, so we are meant to believe this
now. Ironically, lying Judd trusts everyone. At the beginning, Judd defends Gary. Judd trusts his bond with Steph and "the game plan". But, noone trusts Judd enough to fill him in on the Jamie boot.

Lydia: Deemed undeserving, by Gary. We were meant to think Lydia was instrumental in voting off her friend and ally and then keeping him in the dark. So, now we have Lydia lying.

Rafe: He deems himself deserving, as he confesses he has made himself a threat. He was definately the most manipulative in this episode, but I doubt he will be targeted for it! Rafe was probably central to the most excuseable lie since the merge, but a liar nonetheless.

Steph: Gary deemed her strong/deserving and Steph, of course,
agreed Funny that Steph announced to Rafe, of all people, that Gary is a "smooth operator"! Steph and Rafe are equally as smooth. However, in this episode, Steph was shown to be considerate and she was not (purposefully) shown to be a liar.

Cindy: The Dark Horse. Gary deemed Cindy undeserving, so I guess we're supposed to believe this. But, is this true? I wonder if Gary changed his mind after Cindy's last performance?
Cindy is strong and she has a great attitude (of late). I wonder if we're supposed to now view Cindy as a liar bc of her
scenes reassuring Jamie and then confessing she's fed up with him? I am reminded of Cindy's diplomatic response, at a prior Tribal Council, when she claimed "I think we're all going to be liars when it's all said and done".

Which brings me to

Danni: Deemed deserving, by Gary. We did not see Danni lie. Of course, circumstances limit her need to lie, as her original alliance is long gone and she did not catch someone else lying
as Gary did. But, I'm beginning to wonder whether Cindy's statement was foreshadowing in that Danni will be the only one who is not considered a liar, when it is all said and done!

ETA: Jeff "a one in seven shot at a million dollars" and we see a close up of giddy Danni AND a very concerned Gary beside her!

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