"The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau" - Reality TV World Message Board Forums - "The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing

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"The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"	04-08-05, 10:50 AM (EST)
"The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"
LAST EDITED ON 04-08-05 AT 12:33 PM (EST) Although we usually wait for a twist or a merger, Stephenie's position at Ulong is worthy of a new thread (plus DRONES asked Those who are involved in this thread can assume we have a long post ahead Our first thread is here: http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/5676.shtml Before I go into my observations: applejack - I was more alert to the music this time so I may have missed what I usually do; you may have ruined me for life lol pepe I am copying your post so it is specifically relevant to last night and easier to see here: Well, there goes one alliance revealed -- Ian said that he, Tom, Stephenie and Katie would be a Final Four alliance. Specific alliances revealed always fail. Is Stephenie going to be the only one that doesn't make it to the final four, or maybe we'll see Tom or Ian booted in third or fourth place instead of going to the final two? One thing I noticed about last night's episode (Ep.8) was that the camera repeatedly panned to Jenn. Not only did she have a couple of confessionals and the group mentioned her name a couple times during the discussion of what to do with the fresh water, but on numerous other times, the camera panned to her face in a closeup during the challenges or around camp, etc. I'd say about 10-12 times besides the confessionals/fresh water talk. What can we make of this, and why Jenn in particular and not, let's say, Caryn or Katie or Janu? I noticed that quite as well pepe and, in fact, was amazed that for Jenn's character, there was so much of her. This essentially tells me her "role" is probably going to grow to a degree. I have a feeling with the entrance of Stephenie, the women of Koror may have some claws out. I also suspect that in light of what she said about Tom, this was intentionally shown to let the audience know that the fivesome is not as cohesive as we were led to believe (which was furthered evidenced by Tom's and Ian's discussion) Though, Bobby is gone, the elements of symbolism around him were so palpable and he was such an extraordinary character, it would be remiss of me not to mention him Interestingly enough, they made sure to “humanize” him with Stephenie’s descriptions (a little too descriptive ) The Characters Bobby Jon Bobby Jon (After RC) “I almost had it” (In watching this, this comment may have very well been placed there as he was walking away with his back to us. Regardless, yes, Bobby you almost had it Jeff (At IC) “Bobby Jon....... almost walked on water” (“almost” is right) BJ and fire throughout the course of the show Obvious foreshadowing as to the events that would unfold at TC with Stephenie telling him “You always get it started” BJ “In a competition, you have to rule out feelings” (Interestingly enough Bobby was probably one of the more heartfelt contestants this season) BJ (while he and Steph eating fish) “This is the breakfast of champions” (Quite a lot of interesting comments that could involve Stephenie) Stephenie - What she Said ”I’m ready to bring home a victory; my time is not up; I’m still ready for a win” ”I think about Koror all the time; it is totally me. I’m totally cut out for this. If I can make it through this, I can make it through anything. Halfway there - so long to go; I won’t give up hope” ”It’s always like this; miss it by an inch” ”We suck at puzzles” ”Perhaps an area that may lead to trouble for her” ”I’m like frantic without fire” Symbolic obviously revolving around fire represents life ”If I win, a whole variety of things could happen” What was said: BJ (To Stephenie) “....win this thing alright?” and his confessional..... BJ (about Stephenie) “She can do anything a man can do” “She’s almost invincible” Perhaps nothing but perhaps a key word with “almost” as heavily said with BJ Tom to Ian”We got good news if Stephenie is still there; we needed that.....” Tom confessional”...........Stephenie also part of that group; Stephenie would be the wolf in sheeps clothing they wouldn’t even see coming” Ian to Tom: “Final four is me, you, Stephenie and Katie” (Much like Gregg’s outline, this probably will not happen Jeff at challenge”No trouble with the balance beam” (Again, indicator of a challenge where she will excel? Crucial immunity perhaps?) Jeff at challenge”Steph not embarrassed to look next door” (Truer words never been spoken; literally Stephenie is looking “next door”) Jeff at TC challenge “Using your brains.... Steph has a big flame; Steph’s torch is lit” (Steph using the key factor in what makes Koror successful - brains) Jeff at TC “It’s just you; you are still alive” The lone bird at Ulong new animal imagery for Steph? Interesting note that both Stephenie and Coby refer to alpha male correlations, i.e. Steph discussing BJ and the things that men do and Coby referring to the alpha males waiting on the women hand/foot Stephenie was by far one of the most shown contestants on any Survivor and rightfully so considering the unique circumstances she is in. Naturally, we would hear quite a lot from her and about her. The key, again, is differentiating the necessity for story purposes and “star” power or winning purposes Koror’s War I believe we may finally see the emergence of our war theme. Choices and consequences will still be part of the story but I do think there will be battles fought as we are now beginning to see further emergence of two sides and their attack plans None other than one of our resident narrators, Katie aptly put the development of Koror: Katie “No more happy Koror days..........eating each other” Katie was relatively quiet this episode aside from the confirmation that she is an established member of the Tom, Ian, Katie and Stephenie final four. The fact that we were shown hearing this from Tom and Ian not only seems that this WON’T be successful but that Katie, herself, may be the cause of its failure. I say this because Katie was not shown in this discussion and the interesting shots of her interspersed during the discussion makes me wonder if Katie is integral in changing this plan. Perhaps her.......... ”Get out of here" could be referable to Stephenie? Janu Not terribly seen or heard but I felt a more definitive presence from her especially at the reward challenge. We also were shown shots of her twice lounging in the hammock and of course......... Coby: “8th straight day of boo hoo....... would you quit already? Just get out of the game" Janu’s decline in health has already been set up for us; interesting how we hear Coby asserting that Janu should just quit; this is usually not said about “sick” contestants; we usually hear people discuss them in terms of booting them. In light of Katie’s prior discussion of Janu being a drama queen which we have barely scratched the surface on and Coby’s instructions to just quit; prophetic? b]Caryn Very little seen of Caryn especially in light of the prior showings of her which had been relatively negative. She then received a positive upswing and has been fairly set on the back burner. Many times with this type of character editing, we end up seeing this person as a utility to someone else’s game rather than an active player in the game Where we sit with the emergence of Koror’s dynamics and Caryn not even a part of it (as noted by Gregg) Caryn may be a tool that is used by one faction or the other and “usually” this person ends up faring better than one of the directly active players involved Off the top of my head, Jan is a tepid example in that she was never part of the main strategic alliances but was utilized and got far because of it. Caryn’s longevity is at the hands of others rather than herself Gregg and Jenn For my purposes, I am just combining them, however, both interesting this episode. Jenn received a palpable boost in face time compared to prior shows where she was just mainly delegated to confessionals about challenges and her involvement with Gregg Jenn: ” ............maybe in the end that’ll be him voted off for being such a sourpuss about the whole thing” What is interesting about her confessional about Tom was that SHE was shown to say this. I have a hard time fathoming that ONLY Jenn was disappointed about the shower; yet she was the one shown to us commenting and it being about Tom’s behavior. Couple this with the references to Gregg and Jennifer from Tom and Ian is more or less showcasing the inevitable breakdown of this five person alliance; I believe this confessional was more about showing this breakdown Gregg was relatively quiet this episode which is not very surprising. We already heard from Gregg; the motions for that plan will evolve. *What we are hearing now is the counterattack of Gregg’s targets* Coby Coby has been a consistent narrator for Koror which has increased. My concern over him was vocalized with the discussion over his victory Ian: ”You’ve been very physical; always stepping up...............” This is not necessarily a bad thing but it normally is when you are not a core member of an alliance. Further, I must reiterate what Tom said last week: Tom: “You can only taunt me so long before I strike back at you” *And how DARE Coby move the shark head* It is ironic that we finally see Coby’s “outcast” thoughts which were alluded to in his episode bonding with Angie: ”Gave up a lot in my life; I wasn’t going to let anyone make me quit this time; no one will take this away from me. I’m not quitting” In terms of characterization from viewing prior shows, this broadening that encompasses a personal quest or victory is sometimes tough to deduce in terms of longevity. However, those characters in the past that have shown us these types of characterization have never had the breakdown of two tribes like this. With the exception of one Ulong, Koror is the ENTIRE tribe. We can’t forget that in terms of the game itself. This may signal a full circle for Coby. He was deemed an outcast over the course of his life; he ”...never thought he would be on a team this strong” He succeeded and this, coupled with next week’s obvious issues and: ”We all made the jury” sends signals to me. Also, there is a definite Coby vs. Tom scenario that seems to playing with Coby’s “attack of the shark head, “alpha males”, etc. and Tom’s prior commentary about striking back. While I am a “child of editing” I have to incorporate logic as well. Both Coby and Stephenie have had massive edits but “logically” they both in vulnerable positions. Their editing and the story involving them also does not suggest winning status I must note that Mark Burnett and company must have been fit to be tied with the nature of the events that happened this season. Ulong obliterated and so many players all but giving up to the point where Jeff made the comment about not applying if you are going to quit. It stands to reason that the editing has incorporated this as a theme as well. In light of this, I do believe that those who are monumental this season are being showcased. Bobby Jon and his pushing and pushing. Stephenie and her determination in winning, Coby and his personal quest to be victorious, Angie and her prevailing despite being an underdog, Tom in his shark slaying and huge leadership role and so forth appear to be a direct “editing attack” (if you will) against the disappointment of others. Therefore, the editing may be misleading since in another season, they would “appear” to be potential winners; in this season these people are ALL WINNERS and Mark Burnett is sending a very pointed message about giving up Ian Ian helped us to establish the strategy of their final four but again, he is barely mentioned by others; the issues are all about Tom. Ian again frolicking after the reward challenge though I can say we finally heard him refer to the game: ”We are a family but there’s a business side to it; we are on the verge of utter ridiculousness” (strange sentiment) And again, we see him conferring with Tom and verifying with Tom the order of business. A definite partnership but Tom is making the decisions with Ian quite content to follow his lead; *if Ian is content to let Tom make all the decisions, what will happen when Ian has to make one?* Tom Tom’s edit is definitely becoming more three dimensional. In terms of early on, there was a definite “larger than life” persona attached to him which was worrisome; we then started seeing different shades of Tom; strategy and observation and hints of arrogance. Interestingly enough, that isn’t a bad thing. We saw this with Rich, Brian and Chris as well Gregg in the recap “Tom brought in the big one” Stephenie “He’s the strongest on theirs” (tribe) Tom “The rats are going crazy today; they have gotten comfortable” So symbolic as well as Tom being very aware of these rats Tom”........had to assert myself which I didn’t want to do (re: Jenn/shower).... ridiculous” Tom to Ian “Give me the State of Union report” (Just another nugget of Tom the leader Tom to Ian “Watch the beak” more or less just a fun comment but one never knows perhaps he should have said “watch your back” During the RC, one of the females, perhaps Katie stated “ Mind over matter fireman” Tom at RC “It’s gonna be Tom” (and with his eating looking just like the cat that ate the canary Again, a huge character this season, Tom is the complete antithesis to all that Mark Burnett and company detested this season; Tom would be getting a stellar edit regardless of his outcome. However, the fact that we are being shown by others that they need to take him down as well as his game play more or less tells us he wouldn’t meet the same demise of our OTHER larger than life Rupert since there are palpable differences. Rupert was viewed by others like Tom but we saw from Rupert himself differently. We don’t see vulnerability, insecurity, trust matters from Tom as we saw with Rupert and THAT is the difference Imagery and things that make you go hmmm Flies buzzing around the shark A rainbow shown at Ulong on the way to Tribal Council The lone bird at Ulong Stephenie at Tribal Council, sitting by herself holding her torch Rats are becoming bolder and bolder; they are closing in What Is Developing Coby at the pinnacle We have seen narration, sarcasm, strategy and sympathy. It appears he toes the line with the leader and Tom “strikes back at those who taunt him” Again, his strong edit with us being let known “he is not quitting” may, in fact, be directly related to the message Mark Burnett is sending about those who quit and those who do not. Coby is NO quitter but that doesn’t mean he can’t be voted off and the obvious correlation to his reference about Janu to “just quit” could also have prophetic outcomes somehow as well. Janu and the outcome of Coby's observation The “battle” if you will, of two factions, Perhaps the utilization of Caryn as a pawn Whether Stephenie can win that immunity she constantly discusses (perhaps one involving balance?) Stephenie's inclusion into one alliance through Tom and Ian's talk and whether Katie being absent during same creates a side battle The two strategies were clearly revealed which does hint therefore, they do not work out the way they were planned as we are to see the rats try to take over and whether the lone bird will assist in this Themes Choices and Consequences may be ending and may have been deeply rooted more with Ulong War Emergence of two sides battling each other for victory The Prevalance of Giving Up or Bearing Down Mark Burnett is showcasing our determined players and sneering at those who give up; I suggest this has been a deliberate story inserted
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Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID

What happens if? JohnMc 04-08-05 1

   RE: What happens if? VerucaSalt 04-08-05 3

       RE: What happens if? Loree 04-08-05 4

           RE: What happens if? King Will 04-08-05 5

           RE: What happens if? kary1371 04-08-05 6

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... MDSkinner 04-08-05 2

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... redbeard103152 04-08-05 7

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kingfish 04-08-05 8

   RE: Tom's edit, and the winner's ed... television 04-09-05 16

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 04-08-05 9

Act II? Risti 04-08-05 10

   RE: Act II? Alchemist 04-09-05 13

   RE: Act II? kathliam 04-09-05 14

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... LookeeLoo 04-08-05 11

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Peachezz 04-09-05 12

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kathliam 04-09-05 15

   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... michel 04-09-05 17

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... applejack93 04-10-05 18

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Dakota 04-10-05 19

Stephanie's downfall? rasslinmomma 04-10-05 20

   And another thing Loquatrix 04-13-05 33

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 04-11-05 21

   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Whole Lotta Rosie 04-11-05 22

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 04-11-05 23

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... geg6 04-12-05 24

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... ElroyJetson 04-12-05 25

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... geg6 04-12-05 26

                   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... VerucaSalt 04-12-05 29

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... King Will 04-12-05 27

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... zazzy 04-12-05 28

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... geg6 04-12-05 30

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 04-12-05 31

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... michel 04-13-05 34

Sorry I am late applejack93 04-13-05 32

S10 - E9: TPGE LookeeLoo 04-15-05 35

   RE: S10 - E9: TPGE michel 04-16-05 36

   RE: S10 - E9: TPGE dreamerbeliever 04-16-05 37

   RE: S10 - E9: TPGE redbeard103152 04-17-05 38

       RE: S10 - E9: TPGE VerucaSalt 04-18-05 39

           RE: S10 - E9: TPGE Loree 04-18-05 40

               RE: S10 - E9: TPGE Brownroach 04-18-05 42

           RE: S10 - E9: TPGE DRONES 04-18-05 41

               RE: The Equalizer Dakota 04-18-05 43

               RE: S10 - E9: TPGE braveheart 04-18-05 45

An aside Loquatrix 04-18-05 44

   RE: An aside applejack93 04-18-05 46

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... laniking 04-21-05 47

   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... VerucaSalt 04-22-05 48

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... smokedog 04-22-05 49

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... michel 04-22-05 50

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... katethegreat 04-25-05 53

       Steph's arc is done ElroyJetson 04-25-05 51

           RE: Steph's arc is done Dakota 04-25-05 52

               RE: Steph's arc is done redbeard103152 04-25-05 54

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... hunniebunns 04-25-05 55

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... JazzyJax 04-25-05 56

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 04-25-05 57

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... VerucaSalt 04-26-05 59

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... applejack93 04-26-05 58

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... VerucaSalt 04-26-05 60

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Dakota 04-26-05 61

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Kiddiepool 04-26-05 62

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... braveheart 04-26-05 63

                   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... imrastro 04-26-05 64

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... hunniebunns 04-26-05 65

                   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... michel 04-26-05 66

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... JazzyJax 04-26-05 67

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kingfish 04-26-05 69

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... applejack93 04-27-05 70

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... zazzy 04-27-05 72

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... MargoChanning 04-29-05 86

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 04-26-05 68

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kingfish 04-27-05 71

                   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... VerucaSalt 04-28-05 73

                       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... hunniebunns 04-28-05 74

                       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 04-28-05 75

                       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... JazzyJax 04-28-05 76

                           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... michel 04-28-05 77

                       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kingfish 04-28-05 78

                       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... smokedog 04-29-05 79

                       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Flowerpower 04-29-05 81

                           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... braveheart 04-29-05 85

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Bebo 04-29-05 80

   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... EmpressEmmie 04-29-05 82

   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kingfish 04-29-05 83

   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... redbeard103152 04-29-05 84

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... MargoChanning 04-29-05 87

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Twisted Sister 04-29-05 88

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Steph_Fan 04-29-05 89

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Bebo 04-29-05 90

                   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... MargoChanning 04-29-05 91

                       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kingfish 04-29-05 92

                           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... dreamerbeliever 04-29-05 94

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Flipper 04-29-05 93

   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... VerucaSalt 04-29-05 95

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... MargoChanning 04-29-05 96

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kingfish 04-29-05 97

           RE: Kingfish...question twinsmomm 04-29-05 98

               RE: Kingfish...question kingfish 04-30-05 99

                   RE: Kingfish...question twinsmomm 04-30-05 100

                       RE: Kingfish...question kingfish 04-30-05 101

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Peachezz 04-30-05 102

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Whole Lotta Rosie 05-01-05 103

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 05-02-05 104

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Loree 05-02-05 105

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... ADKer 05-02-05 106

               Episode 12 VerucaSalt 05-06-05 107

                   RE: Episode 12 Alchemist 05-06-05 108

                   RE: Episode 12 JohnMc 05-06-05 109

                   RE: Episode 12 KObrien_fan 05-06-05 110

                       RE: Episode 12 michel 05-06-05 111

                           RE: Episode 12 KObrien_fan 05-06-05 112

                               RE: Episode 12 Whole Lotta Rosie 05-07-05 113

                                   RE: Episode 12 KObrien_fan 05-07-05 114

                                       RE: Episode 12 becca 05-08-05 115

                                           RE: Episode 12 michel 05-08-05 116

                                               RE: Episode 12 becca 05-08-05 117

                                               RE: Episode 12 KObrien_fan 05-12-05 126

                                                   RE: Episode 12 michel 05-13-05 131

                   RE: Episode 12 DRONES 05-09-05 118

                       RE: Episode 12 becca 05-09-05 119

                           RE: Episode 12 DRONES 05-09-05 120

                   RE: Episode 12 applejack93 05-10-05 121

                       RE: Episode 12 VerucaSalt 05-10-05 122

                           RE: Episode 12 Brownroach 05-10-05 123

                               RE: Episode 12 becca 05-10-05 124

                                   RE: Episode 12 DRONES 05-11-05 125

                                       RE: Episode 12 VerucaSalt 05-12-05 127

                                           RE: And the final four is here VerucaSalt 05-13-05 128

                                               RE: And the final four is here Brownroach 05-13-05 130

Choices and Consequences Bebo 05-13-05 129

   RE: Choices and Consequences becca 05-13-05 132

       RE: Choices and Consequences DRONES 05-13-05 133

           It's Burn-it's own fault Round Robin 05-14-05 138

RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... zazzy 05-13-05 134

   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Loquatrix 05-13-05 135

       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... becca 05-13-05 136

           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... kohlibri 05-13-05 137

               RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... DRONES 05-15-05 139

                   RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... becca 05-15-05 140

                       RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... VerucaSalt 05-17-05 141

                           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... redbeard103152 05-17-05 142

                           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... Alchemist 05-17-05 143

                           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... MargoChanning 05-17-05 144

                           RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, T... mimo 05-17-05 145

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Messages in this topic

JohnMc 2679 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Survivor-themed Cruise Spokesperson"
04-08-05, 11:07 AM (EST)

1. "What happens if?"

First off, VS, you always give such an awesome comprehensive analysis. I certainly don't have any points to challenge you on.
But I do have a thought that I'd like to throw out there as you talk about Coby and Janu. We know that everyone left (8 Koror plus Steph) are on the jury. Let's say that at some point Janu is tired of the whole thing and quits. Does she get the tribe to vote her off and remain on the jury? Does she just quit and then not go on the jury? Would they replace her on the jury with Bobby Jon?

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
04-08-05, 12:04 PM (EST)

3. "RE: What happens if?"

John please continue to post your thoughts; I have said that I can't wait to see what others think and feel they determined through the editing since we all view the show with some degree of subjectivity. Therefore, what I may see, may not necessarily be what someone else sees and different observations of the same event can help assist the outcome
Let's say that at some point Janu is tired of the whole thing and quits. Does she get the tribe to vote her off and remain on the jury? Does she just quit and then not go on the jury? Would they replace her on the jury with Bobby Jon
As much as I would love to have a crystal ball to see the answers, my speculations are merely based on the editing and certain things that "jump out" Whether Janu even quits is speculatory but it is possible based on:
- the prevalance of this happening this season
- her declining health
- her fairweather face time
- the commentary about her being a drama queen though little of this was shown to us
- the inordinate amount of editing surrounding those who are defiant to "giving up"
- and the direct challenge made by Coby.
Whether she gives up or gets a "mercy boot" is purely conjecture. In terms of the "rules" of the game; it is anyone's guess whether Mark Burnett extends the privilege of her being a juror if she does quit the game. However, in light of the fact that I don't feel Bobby Jon will be seen again, it stands to reason she will be a juror (evidenced by Tom's statement to her about being on the jury which I am paraphrasing)
This is where the story, the quotes and the editing all play a part to me. With the abundance of that which I outlined, it is a reasonable speculation. However, this show has never ceased to surprise me either

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Loree 8616 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-08-05, 12:29 PM (EST)

4. "RE: What happens if?"

I believe Janu would stay on the jury no matter how she leaves. Bobby Jon would not know the others enough to vote for them in the end. He was never with them except for that first couple days. I think Janu would be the mercy boot. With one big tribe there is no reason for anyone to want to force her to stay and keep their tribe outnumbering the other. They would all be happy to vote her out and save themselves.

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King Will 49 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-08-05, 01:21 PM (EST)

5. "RE: What happens if?"

I disagree about not wanting to keep Janu around. What about Greg's plan to split the fivesome, he will quickly figure out when Tom doesn't want to vote her out next ep. Steph isn't going to be on his side (at least reliably) and then he needs to take control at this stage.
So Letting Janu go and not forcing her to stay long enough to vote out Steph will be Greg's downfall.
The real question in my mind is what Tom's downfall will be? He may overcome it, but his plan will be tripped up, possibly by Katie and possibly by Steph. We kind of have a 4 v 4 tie but several people in the middle may be easily swayed such as Caryn and Steph.
King

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kary1371 631 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-08-05, 01:23 PM (EST)

6. "RE: What happens if?"

LAST EDITED ON 04-08-05 AT 01:24 PM (EST)
Great analysis Veruca! You are amazing!
As for Janu being replaced on the Jury, since they send them of in vacation when it gets to the Jury, I don't think they would bring back someone who's been outside of the game, no matter what...

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MDSkinner 716 desperate attention whore postings
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04-08-05, 12:01 PM (EST)

2. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Tremendous analysis. I am amazed at how much I do not see when I read a post like this. Really good stuff.

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redbeard103152 466 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
04-08-05, 06:04 PM (EST)

7. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS This thread is the core reason why I watch Survivor. The individual and group dynamics that differ from show to show, sometimes from minute to minute, is what makes this show unique.Comparing the editing to other seasons is another key to how the pieces may fit into the particular puzzle we are currently trying to solve.I can't thank you enough for your insights. Your ability to get inside the charactors heads is unparalleled.You make Fridays very special.RedBeard

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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04-08-05, 06:20 PM (EST)

8. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-08-05 AT 06:33 PM (EST)
Great review of a rich episode. Not nearly long enough though.
What a positive episode for BJ. He does boneheaded things like putting all the (Ugh) baluts in his mouth and finds he can’t swallow (Duh - but a mistake of exuberance and not for want of effort or self-sacrifice). He can’t solve a puzzle (again) to save his a$$. He mentions that he almost wins, never does. Yet his spirit is shining thru, he doesn’t blame anyone but himself, and he recognizes the worth of Steph as well as the Koror opponents. A very decent fellow. Even with his snot rockets! What a hoot that was. And when in the woods, w/o amenities like TP or Kleenix, well, you know, it is practical.
Quite a contrast to James, I imagine the evil PMB is pleased to be able to present this contrast.
The walk on water comment was particularly apt; As he walked out down the path after getting snuffed, I was thinking, you know, he might just be able to walk down that path out onto the water. He went out on a high note (thus edited in part as reward for presenting EPMB's idea of how Survivor should be played?), he may well be in for some nice appearance and modeling contracts.
If they ever have the idiotic notion (And I hope they don’t) to bring back the Ghost survivors, at least bring back someone like ole BJ. Or Steph after/if/when she is booted.
And Steph. What a positive episode for her. Right about now, in my opinion, she is the person most deserving of a win. By a nice margin, even in contrast with Tom or Ian. Peaking at the wrong time, and too steep a hill to climb for her probably, but maybe just maybe we will have a new type of winner’s story. After Chris's win, no hill is too steep.
Coby seems to be too emotional to last (beating KOBF to the punch here). A positive (if catty) edit this week though, I think.
Tom had a bit of a dip in editing, esp. as the shower Nazi. The women (I assume they agreed with Jen on that) suffered there too I think, not standing up to him. But I guess the time is about right for Tom to be humanized and edited down a little if his is to be a successful story and if he is to be gradually rehabilitated for the finish.
If he is on a winners track, I think he will continue to be edited down somewhat for a few more episodes, with others peaking and being booted. I picture Gregg and Steph (unfortunately) on that track.

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television 282 desperate attention whore postings
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04-09-05, 03:17 PM (EST)

16. "RE: Tom's edit, and the winner's edit"

You know, if I'm trying to think like a producer, I wouldn't want the winner to get a shining edit, just to make people feel happy. I would want a winner who is controversial, so people will talk about my show. I think Rupert got the positive edit because he didn't win (therefore, people can talk about him being voted off), whereas Romber got a mixed edit because they did win, as two examples. When I think of Rich, Tina, Brian, Jenna, Sandra (a little more of a stretch) and Chris, I can see good and bad points about them, plenty of reasons over all the episodes to see why people would either like them or not like them. Ethan and Vee a little less, but that's probably because they're bland people.
Anyway, if I think about it this way, Tom is certainly getting the winners' edit, moreso than say Ian (mostly positive) or Katie (mostly negative). I think people's admiration of Tom has been highlighted just as much as the negative aspects of his leadership.
And I'd like to point out that I sensed a visible transition in this week's show. It started with Katie's confessional about "no more happy Koror", and continued into Ian talking about how he can't wait for the craziness to begin. Ian, who has been shown most diplomatically in the shows leading up to this one, is the one to first directly bring up the Tom/Katie/Ian alliance. Does that mean his edit is changing towards that of a winner and a player? Does it mean anything that he brought it up on camera in discussion with Tom, but Tom brought it up in a confessional? These are interesting questions.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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04-08-05, 07:36 PM (EST)

9. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Amazing job VS. I, as usual, agree with you on many of your observations
There will be definate shift in theme, but I don't think EPMB is quit done with Choices and Consequences. Janu should be his last victim and then it will mostly put to be.
EPMB had to have been very upset with the performance of Ulong as a whole and thier general attitude. They didn't play the game the way he wanted it played, and they suffered, and they lost and lost and he made sure that we all know WHY. All of the quiters and lazy people have been made to look very bad. I'm sure that future contestants will take note.
It was great to see Steph and BJ at the end. For me, it almost seemed surreal. Jeff made a point at TC to tell them that it was wierd seeing just two players and the game is barely half way over. We of course didn't need to hear that comment and Jeff didn't need to say it, as BJ and Steph were both well aware of that fact.
Fire, fire, fire, it has been a prevalant theme with Steph, so it was no wonder that it was the final immunity for Ulong. Steph caught the flint in the beginning, and lit her tourch first at the end.
We also saw the first bit of negativity in regards to Steph. Before the IC she said that she could do a puzzle but by the end she says WE suck at puzzles.
She is now alone at Ulong, scared and worried that she can't make it on her own. We are seeing the very vulnerable side of Steph. We are also seeing why she would get along so well with Ian and Tom and why there could be problem with Jenn.
We saw how much she relied on BJ, that alpha male provider. She said it herself, that BJ does most of the work around camp.
She is going to come into Koror as Ulongs lone survive beating out all of those men. She also beat Jenn on several occasions in head to head competition. I wonder if Jenn has forgotten that She will be a threat as the alpha female. We already know that Tom can't wait to have her there. I wonder how Katie will like Steph joining her in the middle of the Ian and Tom protective blanket
I don't have time right now to finish up all of my thoughts so I'll just leave this tidbit to finish things off.
If you were EPMB and you had NYC Fireman as your ultimate winner, wouldn't you put him front and center ever chance you had? What does the general public think when they hear NYC FD? I'd tell you what I think, but then all you'd have to do is look at my NYC FD t-shirt , and I live in Omaha, NE

DRONES

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Risti 190 desperate attention whore postings
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04-08-05, 08:45 PM (EST)

10. "Act II?"

I may come back later with more thoughts, but did anyone else get the feeling that this episode felt very much like the end of the first act in a two act play? Stephanie the lone hero over at Ulong, who began her adventure by being the first one out of the boat is now the last one left on that island. Remember, the whole tribe started out there. Stephanie hasn't just gone from 9 to 1, she's gone from 20 to 1. As was said above, Jeff kept mentioning how odd it felt that this was really only halfway through the game.
On Koror's side, we've seen the happy ending - with much hubris building - to the seemingly strongest, happiest tribe ever. The cabana music playing over their celebration felt more like the music a movie would fade to credits with then your typical Survivor soundtrack. Not to mention the fact that we atuallly saw Koror post-IC. Usually, the self congratulations are placed at the beginning of the next episode, usually through confessionals reflecting back on the previous day. That segment, to me, was a clear epilogue(and cliff hanger) to the Koror as a Tribe storyline.
What I'm saying here, I guess, is that I wouldn't be surprised if we see the editing take a turn, as we shift into Act II of the play. It's more than the stage being set. The curtain has gone down, the audience has gone out to stretch their legs and discuss the events so far, and are generally gearing themselves up to sit back down again for the second act and the eventual climax. I think we need to watch very carefully next episode to see who steps up into which role, because several of them could shift(narrators, underdogs, even leaders).

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Alchemist 110 desperate attention whore postings
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04-09-05, 10:02 AM (EST)

13. "RE: Act II?"

Part Deux, you are exactly right Risti. That describes the impression I had after the show was over. Although I don't know if it was just the Chicago CBS station or not but BJ's aftershow comments seemed to be cut off practically in mid word. Commercials. Sheesh.
Alchemist

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kathliam 3669 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"
04-09-05, 10:05 AM (EST)

14. "RE: Act II?"

Risti, what a perfect analogy. That is exactly how EPMB has edited this season. Granted, Ulong gave him the material to work with, but we now have a great set-up for Act II. I will definitely be paying closer attention to the next episode to watch these elements play out.

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LookeeLoo 1169 desperate attention whore postings
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04-08-05, 09:10 PM (EST)

11. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I got to enjoy your post earlier in the week VS! Your comments about Coby daring Janu to quit got my attention. He still needs her, as well as Gregg and Jenn, to take down one of the Tom/Ian/Katie/Steph members. But at the same time he is painting a target on her back rather than his.
Not sure what to think of this except to ponder on it a while and rewatch the show. hmmmm
LookeeLoo

Another Dicey Original 2004

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Peachezz 60 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-09-05, 09:32 AM (EST)

12. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Veruca, please stop listening to the music. Wouldn't want anything to distract you from these awesome analyses of editing.
I have a couple of comments just for thought. I really don't think MB would let a quitter have such an important position as being a member of the jury who selects the million-dollar winner. I think that this will be one more choice made this year - if, in fact, Janu really is thinking of quitting - that if she quits, that's her choice, but the consequence would be losing her position on the jury.
There was somewhere on the internet some talk about confusion whether Bobby Jon made it to the jury. If that talk has any truth to it, I can see Bobby Jon being selected for the jury if Janu quits. I personally can't see Janu quitting after hanging in there for sooooo long, but as I have already said, if she quits, I think she goes out and not over to the jury.
I also think choices and consequences will continue through the end of the game. There are so many chances to make choices. For instance, the person winning reward at family time can choose to give that up so that the rest of the tribe can enjoy their family; the partner or partners chosen by an individual reward winner to participate in the reward is a significant choice.
I love your imagry section too. I particularly was struck by the "rats are closing in" image. I'm trying to decide just who the rats are going to be.
And finally, I think Stephanie feels she has won her immunity now, by winning the fire challenge. Could be wrong, often am, but that's what I think.

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kathliam 3669 desperate attention whore postings
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04-09-05, 10:28 AM (EST)

15. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS, your insight analysis never fails to amaze me, and helps make me a better informed viewer. Thank you so much.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-09-05, 05:16 PM (EST)

17. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS, your thread is amazing!
I'd like to get back to the 2 strategies revealed theory. Since one is Gregg's strategy to keep Tom out of the final 4 while Tom's is about getting to the final 4, both cannot fail. The only way would be for both Gregg and Tom not make F4 or if they make it together. I'm sure most will agree neither is very likely.
I think Gregg's strategy (not even accounting for spoilers) will fail because he wants to wait until F7 to make his move. He wants no part of a five person alliance. That's why he didn't want to stay with the loose alliance with Tom and went to Coby. He's worried a 5 person alliance would turn on him and Jenn, so he wants only 4 people to attack Tom's 3. I'm assuming a merge before next tribal council and Gregg probably expects Stephenie to be a unanimous choice for boot. When it doesn't happen and he looses potential allies in the next 2 weeks he'll have to backtrack to Tom but then it will be too late as it will be Tom's 4 person alliance against the other 3

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-10-05, 07:42 AM (EST)

18. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Oh VS, don't start missing the show because of my music talk. I still see the show if I am listening to the music, I just keep an ear out to catch what is going on with the music - I never sit there and listen to it, I just take out two seconds at the beginning of each confessional/challenge or whatever to see what theme is being used.
I have to say, the outcome of the first half of this season has been quite exceptional. I think we should be cautious going into this next part of the game - with such a bizaare game mix we can expect anything in terms of editing. MB may have shaken up the formula because of how odd the cirumstances are.

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Dakota 5819 desperate attention whore postings
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04-10-05, 10:17 PM (EST)

19. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Always amazed at things Spoilers pick up on, and want to thank VS for a great detailed analysis. Two things that I don't think were stated specifically:
1. MB highlights the strong determined players--Steph, Tom, Rupert, Rob, Coby. Probst derisive comments at TC when strong players get voted out early (along with his comment about quitting) tells us that MB doesn't want another season of strong players all going on vacation. He may not like what happened with Ulong, but I think he's using this season to tell people that this is how the game is played. The leaders didn't get voted out early, the strong did survive.
2. We don't know if Steph is going to go along with Ian Tom and Katie, but some make it sound like it's a done deal. Steph knows all too well that Tom's virtually unbeatable in most challenges and may look for a way to vote him out. This may turn out to be her undoing, but it also puts a chink in Tom's plan.
Charter Member: Club Anti-DAW

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rasslinmomma 938 desperate attention whore postings
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04-10-05, 10:45 PM (EST)

20. "Stephanie's downfall?"

With Tom's final four strategy being revealed, we can surmise that it is doomed. Tom and Ian discussed it, and Stephanie should jump at the chance to fit in to a solid group. Does this leave Katie feeling like the weak link, leading to Stephanie's downfall?
1. Katie was not shown agreeing with the Tom/Ian strategy, and a lot of game time has passed since pre-tribe alliances were formed.
2. Katie will know that at least physically, she is the weakest link of this final four.
3. Katie may feel displaced if Tom and Ian immediately begin bonding with Stephanie. She seems like a better personality fit with the guys than Katie does.
Katie may see that the "choice" of bringing Stephanie into their group will lead to the "concequence" of her being booted at #4.
Would she see Stephanie more of a threat or an asset to her alliance?

I love a martini -- but two at the most. Three I’m under the table; Four, I’m under the host.

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
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04-13-05, 05:39 PM (EST)

33. "And another thing"

Katie is no novice at the game of Survivor. She's got to know that:
4. She is being taken along by Tom and Ian as the ideal Final 2 opponent for either of them
If I were Katie, at this point I'd be wondering how I'm going to win the game when two of its strongest players clearly have me earmarked to come in second. Maybe she's fine with that. But I have to suppose not. In which case, that could be another reason why Tom/Ian/Katie/Steph doesn't play out as the final four.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-11-05, 03:52 AM (EST)

21. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

...more thoughts.
Meanwhile back at Koror.
We saw the second alliance revealed of Tom, Ian, Katie and Steph. This was confirmed when Tom and Ian were talking about their secret bonding with Steph before the tribes merged. This talk occured sans Katie which makes me wonder why? As I mentioned earlier there could be some potential conflict between the Koror women and Steph. She is clearly the strongest female competitor left in the game and I'm sure that did not go unnoticed by the Koror women, especially Jenn who has been beaten by her time and again.
This was also the first time we have seen Ian talk strategy, but he did so only after being prompted by Tom. Like VS, I still have not changed my opinion of Ian. Even with this talk of strategy by Ian, we have still not seen any deviation from Ian's great adventure theme.
The reason Ian's editing is so hard to get a grasp of by most is that he is such a strong competitor in challanges. He also has the appearance of a leader, but a lot of that is Tom diverting attention towards him, and the rest of his tribe viewing those two as the leaders because they are involved in all the major decisions.
Janu is still being shown as sick. This does not bode well for her. She will be an extremely easy boot to justify when her time comes, maybe our first or second jury member.
Caryn had a dip in face time and was shown in a more positive light. Her change in editing does not bode well for her longvity. Maybe the first or second jury member.
Janu or Caryn being booted would certainly muck up Gregg's alliance.
It's funny that the one issue we see Jenn the most vocal on, is about the shower. She challanged Tom on this issue openly on really tried to make her case. We were shown her frustration that no one else would really speak up with her on this issue. Tom showed his skill once again in making a rational arguement as to why everyone should agree with him. He is proving quit masterful at doing this.
EPMB editing is showing a coalition of Tom's tribemates who are not happy with him for various reasons and want to take him down.
We are seeing the various factions beginning to line against Tom. How can Tom possibly win with his whole tribe seemingly out to get him? Still, Tom's editing has remained consistent and hasn't changed since the beginning.
Katie being hidden this week for a reason. We have yet to hear her thoughts on the potential of Steph coming over. She is completely sheltered by Tom and Ian. Steph would certainly change that dynamic.
Coby is another one given a consistent edit. His edit falls along the lines of a Rob C. He is the story teller for Koror. Their ins, outs and gossip.
As has been mentioned already, act one was the implossion of Ulong. Act two, the real game begins.
DRONES

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
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04-11-05, 10:15 PM (EST)

22. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS you must shorten your posts and give the rest of us a shot. I am kidding of course, your insight, especially this week, is outstanding. I look forward to your analysis each and every week.
I have a few random thoughts.
Many predicted a change in editing for Ian based on last weeks preview, however, in context, his big strategy play came up empty. While his preview quote seemed promising, I agree, he ultimately appeared to only reaffirm Tom as a strategic player.
Also, during Ian and Tom’s strategy session regarding Stephanie MB flashed to Katie on the beach alone. My impression on my first watch, (unfortunately, I have since deleted so I can not back this up), was positive. She appeared comfortable and at ease when they cut away to her. MB obviously has hours and hours of editing material on Katie and could have easily shown her lying around; looking dirty, and acting lazy, but he chose more positive shots instead. I agree, she is likely to be the key in this alliance’s future (demise) and she will likely come out on top.
Ian’s quote, “we are on the verge of utter ridiculousness” strikes me as a player who doesn’t fully realize they are playing a game. Politics and game play may become strange (or ridiculous) to Ian, much like they were to Gabe, another “big adventure” player.
One of the disadvantages of following the editing so closely is losing sight of what is “naturally” obvious and “subtly” obvious. In Stephanie’s case her edit is becoming “painfully” obvious. Last week gave us multiple opportunities to think Stephanie has a shot at winning it all. In contrast MB has, over the last few weeks, put more and more targets on Tom’s back. In classic MB misdirection, this must favor Tom.
There is a similar issue with Janu. How “obvious” has it become that Janu will quit/mercy boot? VS has raised the excellent observation that MB has a third theme this season, “Do not give up”. It is my belief that Janu’s story will arc with this theme, either positively or negatively, my gut leans to the positive side. On a side note, I really hope she gets kicked off soon so I can stop riding this incredibly inane story line.
Coby’s story arc has appeared to come to a sudden end. I originally believed that Caryn’s story would arc first, but Caryn’s edit has smoothed over the last few weeks and instead, Coby appears to be the current focus. This does not bold well for him. There are other targets, but in addition to Caryn, both Janu and Stephanie still have some more chapters in their stories, Coby may not.
Your analysis of Jenn/Caryn/Janu is right on line. There are most likely pieces to Greg’s success, or, more likely, failure.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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04-11-05, 10:29 PM (EST)

23. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Coby is one of the more fascinating edits of this season.
First we see him talking to Angie about being the out cast. Once on his tribe we hear very little of his poor me attitude and then this episode he is shown crying, being given a very sympathetic edit. Because Coby has such a sharp wit we are led to believe that he is being given a Rob C. edit. With this ep. I'm beginning to see more of a Ruppert edit.
Coby has shown himself to be a very competitive player but in editing we are shown the deeper more fragile Coby. This does not bode well for him. Along with Rupert we have seen this before, in Christy(Amazon), and last season in Chad. This character usually is the suprise boot and the audiance is shocked and disappointed when it happens.
This next ep. is shaping up as one of the most important for the season. The beginning of Act II usually gives a lot of information away to the keen observer, *cough* VS *cough*
DRONES

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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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04-12-05, 09:07 AM (EST)

24. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

>Ian’s quote, “we are on the
>verge of utter ridiculousness” strikes
>me as a player who
>doesn’t fully realize they are
>playing a game. Politics
>and game play may become
>strange (or ridiculous) to Ian,
>much like they were to
>Gabe, another “big adventure” player.
While I know that I am in the editing thread, I have to take issue with this due to what I know about Ian that has nothing to do with his edit.
If there is anyone who knows how to play the politics in this group, it is Ian. For a very young man, he has quite a bit of experience in political situations due to his four years of service in the Student Government Association of a major university. His senior year, he was the President of the Student Government Association, working closely with the President of the University, faculty, the state legislature, and the governor. He was elected by a student body of over 50,000 students. His leadership was much admired and his term of office, which included several controversial matters in such diverse areas as costs, diversity, sexism, and athletics, was considered not just successful but marked by diplomacy, a humble attitude, and an amazing ability to create consensus. That just doesn't sound to me like a guy who is clueless or indifferent to the politics and is only having an adventure.

I'm such a slut for the blues.

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ElroyJetson 586 desperate attention whore postings
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04-12-05, 03:34 PM (EST)

25. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

four years of service in the Student Government Association of a major university
Go Penn State!
-- Elroy the Nittany Lion

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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
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04-12-05, 03:48 PM (EST)

26. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Ah, another of those crazy people my employer turns out.
Here, this one's for you and Ian:
THE NITTANY LION
Every college has a legend, passed on from year to year,
To which they pledge allegiance, and always cherish dear.
But of all the honored idols, there’s but one that stands the test,
It’s the stately Nittany Lion, the symbol of our best.
Chorus:
HAIL! to the Lion, loyal and true.
HAIL! Alma Mater, with your white and blue.
PENN! STATE! forever, molder of men (and women),
FIGHT! for her honor—FIGHT!—and victory again.
There’s Pittsburgh with its Panther,
and Penn her Red and Blue,
Dartmouth with its Indian,
and Yale her Bulldog, too.
There’s Princeton with its Tiger,
and Cornell with its Bear.
But speaking now of victory,
We’ll get the Lion’s share.
(Chorus)
Indiana has its Hoosiers,
Purdue its gold and black.
The Wildcats from Northwestern
and Spartans on attack.
Ohio State has its Buckeyes,
Up north, The Wolverines.
But the Mighty Nittany Lions,
The best they’ve ever seen.
(Chorus)

I'm such a slut for the blues.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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04-12-05, 04:06 PM (EST)

29. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Wow everyone, a day or so away and now I have to digest all these new observations to put a new perspective on everything.
Thursday will indeed be something new to see (exactly DRONES ) with Koror now being the featured cast; this may very well be the MOST telling episode of the season.
geg6 It is nice to see you in here and in actuality, you stated exactly what my response to you would be:
While I know that I am in the editing thread, I have to take issue with this due to what I know about Ian that has nothing to do with his edit
This is entirely about editing and all of us who view the show mainly through the eyes of editing have stated on numerous occasions that editing is manipulated and this season is no exception.
The editing of Ian is portraying someone who appears to be enjoying the adventure and essentially allowing Tom to be in charge and he will follow along. Is this how Ian is in real life? Apparently not but that is not what editing cares about.
I had said that in Survivor, the audience looks to find the hero, the villian and so forth. What can Mark Burnett do when essentially there aren't any? He manipulates the editing so he can satisfy the audience.
This season, truly there are no villians, I expect some will be manipulated to appear to be. In PI, the "villian" was so distasteful, Rupert's edit was manipulated (I feel) to directly combat that and to also give us a hero (as there were none)
Ian was established early on by us in this thread to be a big edit (if you will) saving the flint, winning the initial immunity, picking his wise tribe and so forth. But if he were not to win with such a big and positive edit, wouldn't Mark Burnett like to manipulate it so someone else appears either bigger or more strategizing and Ian is a wonderful guy who contributes a lot but alas he just missed the marker?
There lies the secret (and the fascination) of editing and time and again, I have always stated that the secret is knowing when it is manipulated To this day, I am still learning

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King Will 49 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-12-05, 03:53 PM (EST)

27. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

>>Ian’s quote, “we are on the
>>verge of utter ridiculousness” strikes
>>me as a player who
>>doesn’t fully realize they are
>>playing a game. Politics
>>and game play may become
>>strange (or ridiculous) to Ian,
>>much like they were to
>>Gabe, another “big adventure” player.
>
>While I know that I am
>in the editing thread, I
>have to take issue with
>this due to what I
>know about Ian that has
>nothing to do with his
>edit.
>
>If there is anyone who knows
>how to play the politics
>in this group, it is
>Ian. For a very
>young man, he has quite
>a bit of experience in
>political situations due to his
>four years of service in
>the Student Government Association of
>a major university. His
>senior year, he was the
>President of the Student Government
>Association, working closely with the
>President of the University, faculty,
>the state legislature, and the
>governor. He was elected
>by a student body of
>over 50,000 students. His
>leadership was much admired and
>his term of office, which
>included several controversial matters in
>such diverse areas as costs,
>diversity, sexism, and athletics, was
>considered not just successful but
>marked by diplomacy, a humble
>attitude, and an amazing ability
>to create consensus. That
>just doesn't sound to me
>like a guy who is
>clueless or indifferent to the
>politics and is only having
>an adventure.
>
In fact, your comment seems to strengthen the argument for Ian's eventual demise. A difference in editing from what you know of Ian is the more reason to take note of it.
I am pulling for Ian, he is my favorite character. He seems quite intelligent and has made some excellent strategic moves including building the original Koror, Older/wiser/more coherent/(winners)and recognising a lot of the plots against him and Tom, letting Tom take the majority of the bullets. Ian _could_ be edited as the mastermind of the wolf-sheep-fireman alliance...
but he's not and that is _very_ telling. Sorry but he has to get a real makeover in the next few weeks to get to the finals.
King W

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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
04-12-05, 03:56 PM (EST)

28. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I also think that the Ian comment meant more than an adventure.
I thought Katie and Ian had similar comments:
Ian: "we are on the verge of utter ridiculousness" imo means he knows the game is finally beginning and he is up to the challenge, and has been ready for the challenge of Korors voting one another out.
Katie: "no more happy Koror days...eating each other" imo echoes what Ian thinks will be happening.
We know from the Survivor Insider clips that there was a strategy discussion between Gregg and Coby that did not make the show, yet the Katie and Ian comments did.

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geg6 14941 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-12-05, 04:07 PM (EST)

30. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

>Ian: "we are on the verge
>of utter ridiculousness" imo
>means he knows the game
>is finally beginning and he
>is up to the challenge,
>and has been ready for
>the challenge of Korors voting
>one another out.
That's exactly how I took it, knowing what I know. And I do believe that EPMB would like the general viewer to believe the other view. That way, when Ian begins to really play the game it will be a surprise.
At least I hope so. We'd all love a PSU (and another Beaver County, PA) Survivor winner here.

I'm such a slut for the blues.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-12-05, 09:25 PM (EST)

31. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I remember Ian and Katie's quotes about the "merge", but I hadn't seen them put together like that yet.
When viewed side by side like that I can easily see how they could be two sides of the same quote.
Like VS , I view them within the context of the show. How that message is delivered is as important as the message itself.
A role of the eyes and a sarcastic tone can be just as telling. Last season, Chris did this quit often in his confessionals. In other words "Ya right" just doesn't always mean "Ya right"
Within the context of the show Ian's quote appeared completely and utterly boyish. Like a boy running around the play ground being chased by girls who want to kiss him on the cheek. His tone is not one of forebodding but of real fun.
Katies comment, OTOH, is not one of good time. To empahasize that point she made the claws sign with her hands(more on that in a minute). "no more happy Koror days...eating each other". Here tone was more somber.
The key words that were used by the two of them speak to this difference. utter ridiculousness vs no more happy andeating each other. I'm sure in their confessionals these two had a lot more to say about the game going to individual than just that, but the devil is the details of editing.
Back to Katies use of the claws I find this jester very interesting because it is one that is often used when refering to cat fight. It is usuall giving with a meow sound or rerrr sound. This is the almost universal sign for when women go at each other. Katies use of this to me could mean that there will be some fighting amoung the women. We've already seen this with Katie and Caryn. Now with Steph joining Koror, argueably the strongest woman left in the game, and her prior acknowledge relatioinship with Tom and Ian, this could upset Katies position in the tribe along with Steph beating Jenn one on one in several occasions.
DRONES

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-13-05, 06:37 PM (EST)

34. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

As far as Katie preparing to fight Stephenie, you're forgetting that Katie has no way of knowing yet that Stephenie is still in the game. As far as she knows it could well be Bobby Jon joining them. She just meant the fighting will soon start.
I also can't believe that someone can compare Coby's edit with Rupert, Chad and Christy. Chad and Christy had physical handicaps but valiantly went through the game and lasted somewhat longer than could've been expected at first but neither one of their elimination was a surprise.
In the case of Rupert, unless the whole series is edited entirely before the season starts, I have a feeling CBS adjusted his edit to show him as much as a hero as possible when they realized just how Rupert became popular with the audience.
From where I stand,they would've liked to portray Coby as a vilain plotting behind Tom's back but they don't have enough material. I think that means Coby won't be staying much longer and his elimination wouldn't be a surprise either.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-13-05, 08:24 AM (EST)

32. "Sorry I am late"

VS I'm sorry my thoughts are coming in so late, but Australia doesn't see the episode until tuesday night.
As I said sometime last week I like to take note of what the music is telling us, although most of the time it is already patently obvious.
This week, some interesting things I noticed:
number 1 - Coby's BIG LONG confessional at the beginning had extremely dissonant music with it, lots of clashing harmonies in the strings which suggests tension, but most of all paranoia. THis leads me to believe MB is making Coby out in a similar light to Twila, however for Coby I don't think it will work, largely because he has already had some really goofy percussion music backing his prior confessionals, so I don't think he can be taken as seriously as Twila. Regardless, MB is portraying Coby as extremely eccentric, which isn't a typically good sign.
number 2 - Whenever Tom and Stephenie met in the RC (at 1 and 3 eggs each - yes I nearly vomited) the music changed to a very calm, yet intense, pentatonic and generally asian-sounding theme. Just like the music you would expect to see in a martial arts film, between two respected and wise leaders. Certainly, this highlights them as the two leaders for when the tribes merge but I also think it says something about their relationship down the track. Perhaps they become the two most skilled players? Can we expect a healthy rivalry between these two? Will it eventually come down to these two as to how the game plays out? I think so... They were made out to be VERY important
number 3 - There was some really 'holiday' type music being played over Ian's confessional about how Koror is having a big holiday but soon it will be over (although I prefer the way katie explained it with her hands). It had a Eukalele, swung rhythm and everything - I thought they were momentarily moved to Hawaii. Anyway, whilst that doesn't say alot about Ian's longevity, it does support the theory that this is Ian's "adventure". I don't know, maybe the holiday music was symbolic of the state of Ian's mind. It wasn't negative, it was just odd.
I also think that it became more and more obvious throughout the episode who was going home. Once Ulong lost the IC Steph had an INCREDIBLY long confessional, that was just screaming 'I am safe'.
Anyway, sorry I had to post this so late. I just wanted to see the episode before I started saying things.

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LookeeLoo 1169 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest"
04-15-05, 11:15 PM (EST)

35. "S10 - E9: TPGE"

I’m gonna start this week cause I may not have time later.
Some things struck me as very curious this week, as we see more things revealed in relation to the Episode edits versus the Insider information.
Will we see a Tom and Steph re-alliance, as foreshadowed in the early episode edits of Choices and Consequences? Will we see Ian’s newly divulged final four strategy of Ian, Tom, Katie and Steph as divulged in last week’s episode? Tom’s Insider comments left me with the answer of “No”:

Tom:
I know everybody else has been buzzing in her ear and Coby’s trying to tell her how he has half the crew already sewn up and he just needs her for the final feast. It’s not true. She wants reassurance that there’s room for her within the 5 of us who are tight over here in Koror, and I gave her some assurance that I would do whatever I could to keep her around as long as I could.
(Cut)
I will try to spare her for a few more votes - maybe not at the expense of the five that I’m already locked up with and if I think that I’ve got five to ride right to the final five, then we start picking each other off, then that might be the safest scenario for me.
Has Gregg been up front with Tom and Ian? Tom’s Insider comments below indicate to me that Gregg had NOT been updating Tom and Ian about Coby’s plans, which means that Jenn has been mum too. It seems that it was only when Steph was absorbed into Koror that Tom had a clue that Coby had been scheming all along…

Tom:
Oh, Coby, he’s just - instead of just going along with the flow, realizing Koror was going to right into the jury, he started targeting people and saying “Tom and Ian are the threats. Let’s take them out”. So just the fact that he’s the first person in the game to put a target on my back and say “That guy’s strong. He’s got to go.” Okay, you took the first swing. I’ll finish you off now.

Janu’s Insider comments this week did not have an air of giving up on this game even though we see her as completely lethargic. She didn’t even say she’s been sick! We found out today from Coby that Janu has been “throw up sick since day 4”. (I think this was one of the day-after interviews that happened.) We’ve seen Coby rag on her even though he knew her physical condition, but for me, she always held up in the competitions that she had to do. Janu impressed us on one of the first days out when she shimmied up that tree. Then all we see is a sickly Janu. Yes, I’d agree that she was a skeleton coming in to the game, but I would have loved to see her play if she was not sick. Right now I think she is being edited in this way because they need someone to fit that persona and she is not a contender:

Janu:
That’s what I was thinking, the costume part at work and I’ve had so much practice with that and balance, but I don’t know, maybe they’ll have us on one foot and I don’t do that at work (laughs). So maybe it will be to my advantage. Maybe the fact that I’ve not been doing it for 24 days now has thrown my body off, and my body’s kind of depleted a little bit. Let’s see. We’ll see what happens.

A note on Steph: Steph will go far in this world, and being on Survivor won’t hurt that. She could have gone back alone to camp and just hoped for some kind of rescue. But what we were shown was a true survivor. Much time was spent on how Steph tended the fire, attempted fishing, collected a coconut, cooked it and generally took care of herself up until she knew her situation would change from the arrival of tree mail. I found this powerful. Really liked it.

LookeeLoo

Another Dicey Original 2004

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-16-05, 03:01 PM (EST)

36. "RE: S10 - E9: TPGE"

I agree with your note on Stephenie. The only word that comes to my mind to qualify the edit she is getting is "investment". CBS is making sure we get hooked on her story and it seems to work: her popularity rating is at "Rupert" level (90%)

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dreamerbeliever 3380 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
04-16-05, 06:00 PM (EST)

37. "RE: S10 - E9: TPGE"

LAST EDITED ON 04-16-05 AT 07:37 PM (EST)
Not much to add but thanks for posting the insider text. Some of us have old carpy puters and can't see the clips. Well the sound bite from Tom of ...
Okay, you took the first swing. I’ll finish you off now.
about Coby brings us full circle to the ...
you can taunt me for only so long before I strike back
The taunt comment about the sharks swimming up the beach was indeed meant for the eventual strike back at Coby. Reaction shots of Tom (and a surprized Janu) were shown as Coby took his walk of shame (thanks Lex).
Interesting that when Gregg approached Coby about a possible overthrow, Coby said at the time that he would keep his mouth shut about it. Then wammo, he gets a new tribemate and is spilling his guts to someone whom he doesn't even know if he can trust but likes. Editing wise, it was Coby's one glimmer of hope that was his downfall. Classic case of early strategy revealed does not succeed.

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redbeard103152 466 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
04-17-05, 04:46 PM (EST)

38. "RE: S10 - E9: TPGE"

Tom:
I know everybody else has been buzzing in her ear and Coby’s trying to tell her how he has half the crew already sewn up and he just needs her for the final feast. It’s not true. She wants reassurance that there’s room for her within the 5 of us who are tight over here in Koror, and I gave her some assurance that I would do whatever I could to keep her around as long as I could.

This sounds alot like Boston Rob during his talk to Lex about what would happen later in the game if he would save Amber for him. I have no doubt that Tom will try to save Steff but I see him not being able to carry through with his word as the primary alliance will not agree with his plan. I think Coby hit the nail on the head when he said jealousy between the women will eventually lead to Stephenies downfall.RedBeard

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
04-18-05, 08:59 AM (EST)

39. "RE: S10 - E9: TPGE"

LAST EDITED ON 04-18-05 AT 02:21 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 04-18-05 AT 09:06 AM (EST)
Interesting Insider comments; thank you for posting them!
The episode was so layed out for us that I am essentially already discussing what we already know
The themes that we have laid out are certainly apparent and I am more convinced than ever, in this season particularly, Mark Burnett is sending a very specific message about those who are giving up and those who are working hard.
The edits of some contestants are so incredible and muddy the winner waters unless we understand this message. Obviously I could be completely off the mark but since Jeff Probst made it a point to comment on quitting at the finale for last season, it is my opinion that Mark Burnett edited this season giving those that worked substantially to win this game an enormous presentation.
Stephenie The first portion of this show was "All Stephenie, all the time" This is perfectly understandable in light of the unique situation of her being a lone member of a tribe; therefore, she deserved this spotlight. Again, references from Stephenie and not giving up, not quitting:
"I'll never give up; not a quitter" Message sent and received; Stephenie, in Mark Burnett's eyes, regardless of her outcome, is NOT quitter and we have heard this from her very early on
And then, possible foreshadowing?
"I don't want to lose fire, if it goes out, I might not get it back."
Stephenie was shown not giving up, forging ahead but vulnerable as well; a softening is playing upon her character now; not usually a great sign. Although editing reflects what the long term outcome may be AND in another season, her edit could be one of the winner, we have to remain logical as well. A lone member of a tribe, despite some upcoming cushioning is not an easy road. What about Chris? Chris never entered the other tribe as a lone member; he ended UP one man against the women but the dynamics were different. He had several men with him that were targets first and he also had relationships with Julie and Twilla from their being with him which he capitalized on.
Stephenie's solo act is finished; she now is a supporting player, in what may be a feeding frenzy amongst Koror, but I'm sure she will get an appropriate send off
Tom to Stephenie ...we'll take you as far down the road as we can. We don't know an order what with imimunity and all, but you have friends.........
Steph "I was so quick to give up the damn Ulong buff. I'm ready to start winning with Koror" She chose a million dollar pizza and was asked if she would regret it........
The Korors
To make a second act short, there are a couple of Koror's that editing, wise do not indicate a long term investment. IF we are to believe that part of the editing this season is to send a message that those who rise to the game in all aspects are the "real winners" would Mark Burnett edit other players lower key if they were to win?
Jenn We all figured there would end up being a margin of competition between Jenn and Stephenie which was shown to us last episode
"......as much as I would like to have her around, she needs to go fast"
Jenn is showing some more signs of "life" over the past couple of episodes, however, it is not enough. She is a supporting player. I may have had a little more faith in her outcome if not for how her views were expressed regarding her relationship with Gregg; that was not a good signal. Jenn's confessionals appear merely to be helping the audience "flesh out" a little bit of the dynamics going on at Koror but they are personal (sulky over Tom denying her a fresh water shower, bothered by Gregg's take on their relationship, concerned and somewhat annoyed by Stephenie's presence) Her comments really do not reflect to me her views as a game player in as much as just how she feels about particular situations.
Caryn We assumed Caryn would start emerging again at some point. We have a brief glimpse of what she could be capable of but is this too little too late? Caryn is by no means a lazy person but she is in no man's land. Again, Caryn is a tool that can be used and sometimes those who are used as tools, end up faring better than those that use them But Caryn getting to the end with her edit is not likely in terms of the messages of this season.
Janu We heard Coby directing her to quit the episode before last. We certainly see that Janu is going to visible the following episode with her confrontation. Aside from being shown clearly not "keeping up with the game" there is nothing more to tell about Janu and probably never was. I will be curious though if Coby's directive does occur (in light of all the others who already quit) or she just gets shown booted.
Gregg Gregg, we know, outlined a plan that already did not come to fruition and more times than not, those that showcase their plan just do not succeed especially when they are threatening players and Gregg is that. If not for the higher ended edits of Tom and Ian, Gregg may have done fairly well but he is being overshadowed. If one of the main messages this season is perhaps showcasing the winner as someone who did every aspect of this game with zeal, then I would suspect Gregg would not be a lesser character. In the boat with Ian and Tom, we saw glimpses of Gregg mainly just looking back at the two of them, separated from that "special edit"
Katie Katie is a very insulated figure obviously, sandwiched between Tom and Ian. Does this help? Of course. We know she feels perfectly safe even by her statement at the IC
"Either they want to go home or don't think they are in danger of going home...."
Very sarcastic comment and somewhat condescending by someone IF they felt they were vulnerable. Clearly, Katie feels secure and we also see this in the way she was shown discussing Coby and what he was doing and immediately getting Stephenie to divulge what Coby was telling her.
And again, Katie has been sitting nicely with her two men. We saw JENN express concern about Stephenie, would it be too much of an assumption that Katie may not feel this as well? Katie certainly is NOT going to be replaced by anyone and Stephenie will beat her in any challenge. While I do not have that crystal ball, it would be no surprise to me if Katie and/or Jenn upset the applecart where Stephenie is concerned.
Katie has long been Koror's CONSISTENT narrator, no real invisibility or major showings but we have a sense of what the dynamics are from her. However, the audience is being let known that she is lazy and annoying. Whether this edit is completely accurate, Mark Burnett is allowing us to see this. With the exception of Jenna M., the winner is never really shown to be this way and Jenna's edit was modified. If Katie's edit is not modified soon, I have issues with her being the winner though we already discussed she is being established to be a good final two partner. The other edit we need to watch is whether OTHER final two candidates edits. If there is a measurable change, then Katie may be a winner (such as how Jenna won over Matt) OR,a closer win than expected (like Clay)
Ian and Tom The father/son relationship is still very much in the forefront. Does it mean much that Ian felt his dessert was worth losing immunity? On the whole no but Tom "the stubborn Irishman" wasn't going anywhere. I always find their exchanges interesting as well; they CHECK with each other
Tom: How was it?
Ian: It was so good!
Their relationship has been handed to us early on; literally they are the relationship we have seen usually by the older man/younger woman. Again, while Ian is becoming "more of the game" who do we remember more of in discussing it? Tom. We hear him in confessionals, we hear him talking with others, we SEE his threatening presence. Could Ian come and sneak his way right out from Tom's nose? Again, if we view the themes, it doesn't seem entirely possible especially coupled with the palpable father/son role and Ian continuing on his adventure. Whatever major strategizing Ian may be doing is not being shown. Hiding it? Always possible but in terms of the themes and the role they are showing of him, I don't know that we will see any sneak attack Ian seems to defer to Tom and one can't wonder if that will be Ian's downfall.
While Ian did make note in voting Coby: "....it's business" Perhaps if Ian appeared more like the Godfather, I would not have watched his vote and smiled. It was like watching a young boy trying to be a tough guy - adorable and not very convincing
Tom Reminiscient of Brian's drunken evening, Tom is seen again showing more dimension. One would have to wonder, if it were anyone else BUT Tom, would there have been more negativity surrounding his drunken escapades? Tom is here, Tom is there, Tom is everywhere. If he isn't battling sharks, he is delegating at Koror. If he isn't going on quests with natives, he is falling down drunk. If he isn't being talked about, he is standing on a perch with absolutely no decision to leave it.
Is Tom getting too much of a good thing OR is Tom's edit the clearest and most direct message from Mark Burnett that in this season of mistakes such as voting out your strong, quitting or giving up, in the midst of same is a man like Tom (both negative and positive signs which we all established was actually a BETTER thing to happen to him)who in all aspects is the opposition of everything Mark Burnett was critical about in this season?

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Loree 8616 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-18-05, 10:16 AM (EST)

40. "RE: S10 - E9: TPGE"

Tom's edit was of this big hero early on. It made the audience like him and think he deserves to win. We even had Bobby Jon talking about Tom at their TC.
Then we started to see members of Koror make little digs at Tom in their confessionals. Even Jenn who rarely was seen talking had her moment where she was upset with Tom over the water. I wonder if MB is setting it up so we are not so sure Tom could get the votes to win in a F2. At one time it looked like Tom would be the overwhelming choice to get the votes if he makes F2. The Korors would be happy their leader led them to all those IC wins. So they didn't have to go to TC early on and they all made the jury (except Willard). That was thanks to Tom and he kept them fed. Wouldn't everyone want Tom to win if they couldn't win themselves? Give the win to the most deserving survivor. But... now we see others showing some resentment of Tom. I think this is even more reason to believe that Tom does make the F2. But MB does not want us to think it will be an overwhelming victory for Tom. They are showing us that Tom may not get all those votes. They do not want us to think the Final Vote is a sure thing. How boring would that be. So it's time to show that Tom is not as wonderful as we thought and just might lose some votes to whoever is sitting beside him.
Meanwhile Ian's edit is not showing anyone really resenting him. No reason for that. He probably never makes that F2. But we are shown Katie's edit as someone the others don't think deserves to be there. So Katie and Tom would make the perfect F2. The audience would be wondering if the team's resentment of Tom would throw their vote to Katie. Or do they all dislike Katie so much because she was protected by Tom and Ian and just glided into the F2.
I think MB wants the audience to like the winner but also wants to show their flaws and put doubt in our minds whether he could really win the vote. Tom is the perfect choice for that edit.

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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-18-05, 11:54 AM (EST)

42. "RE: S10 - E9: TPGE"

I wonder if MB is setting it up so we are not so sure Tom could get the votes to win in a F2.
I believe this is the case. And especially now that it is no longer a tribal game, any future "heroics" of Tom's will not be looked on so admirably, which should give MB more opportunities to make a Tom victory look dubious.

Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-18-05, 11:18 AM (EST)

41. "RE: S10 - E9: TPGE"

All the way to the end of Ulong we are shown the determination of Steph. Is there any wonder that she is the ONLY member of her tribe to make it to the jury. EPMB is pouring it on about the quiters. Which brings me to....
The IC. Everyone quit, well, except for Tom...hmmm. Is there any doubt left that EPMB is really sticking it to the quiters. Jeffs comments at TC reflected this fact. He should just come out and say that Quiters never win!. A cliche for sure, but it's the overidding theme, thus far, of this season with more to come for sure. The sickly Janu who can barely get up out of the hammock, BTW, is there a better visual than that hammock for laziness I'm sure all the tribe members lay in it at one time or another, yet it's always Janu that we see there.
The cat fight has begun in earnest with Jenn showing her claws first. She sees the threat that Steph posses to her. She likes her, yet she wants her gone. I guess getting beat in multiple challanges by Steph would do that to her.
Steph didn't appear to hesitate going to Katie and Jenn after her talk with Coby. She was given a lot of info, yet the only thing we saw, were Coby's comments about Jenn and Katie being jealous of her.
Coby's role in the episode was to expose the underbelly of the "united" Koror. He was the tribes narrator to the end and when he finally interjected himself into what he was reporting, he was gone. He didn't care, or at least that's what he said, if he was going to be booted or not, so he tried to stir the pot as left.
Tom was finally shown with some flaws. Jenn, still bitter about the shower incident made sure to tell Steph about this, and her disleasure. Yet she came off as not only whiney but selfish.
Still, the image we are left with, is of Tom being the lone person left standing on his perch. Unwilling to quit no matter the temptation.
Katie, save for her one flare up with Caryn, has yet to be shown having any sort of conflict. She obviously feels very safe, especially in light of her TC comments.
Janu is weak and sick. She poses no physical threat. She will go when it is her time, and with very little fan fare.
Caryn is just sitting in the background for now. We know that she isn't afraid of confrontation.
Ian is still having a good time. There has been no significant deviation from his great adventure theme. He is involved, but only as a sounding board for Tom, who he clearly defers to.
Gregg's plan has already failed. He is still a physical presence who does want to win. He could end up winning a key IC that saves him. This, IMO, is his biggest asset right now.
DRONES

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Dakota 5819 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-18-05, 01:06 PM (EST)

43. "RE: The Equalizer "

The last two weeks, edits have emphasized the strongest players--Tom, Ian and Steph--along with the weakest--Janu and Coby. Gregg's initial plan obviously changed, but we weren't shown that until Coby's meltdown. We're shown chinks in Tom's armor, but T/I/K as the strong alliance--even Caryn, Steph and Gregg voting with him. Steph's vulnerabilities are now being edited in, including the statement "I'll have friends" and spilling her guts to Katie after talking with Coby. Caryn is coming out as a stronger player, Gregg is seen going along with Tom's alliance but not one of them, even Jenn is talking strategy saying Steph has to go, and Janu is seen in the previews confronting Katie. In other words, MB is doing a bit of "equalizing" with our contestants.
Heh, I'm not a spoiler, so I don't know what this means for F4 and F2, but thought I'd add my observations.
Charter Member: Club Anti-DAW

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braveheart 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-18-05, 06:14 PM (EST)

45. "RE: S10 - E9: TPGE"

>Still, the image we are left
>with, is of Tom being
>the lone person left standing
>on his perch. Unwilling to
>quit no matter the temptation.
"I believe this is the case. And especially now that it is no longer a tribal game, any future "heroics" of Tom's will not be looked on so admirably,"
I found Tom had an amazingly heroic day standing on his perch for hours winning the IC while hungover!!!

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-18-05, 05:57 PM (EST)

44. "An aside"

Can I just say how much it annoys me that competition between women is characterized as "jealousy" whereas competition between men is characterized as "competition"?
Thank you.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-18-05, 09:20 PM (EST)

46. "RE: An aside"

I agree. Although I am a male I get really annoyed when people knock girls for being jealous, whereas if a guy did it he would just be seen as more of an alpha male. There are a lot of double standards like that. As VS pointed out, a female joker (Katie) always comes off as more annoying than a male joker, and it's much harder for them to get further in the game.

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laniking 22 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
04-21-05, 04:57 PM (EST)

47. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Veruca Salt said: I must note that Mark Burnett and company must have been fit to be tied with the nature of the events that happened this season. Ulong obliterated and so many players all but giving up to the point where Jeff made the comment about not applying if you are going to quit. It stands to reason that the editing has incorporated this as a theme as well. In light of this, I do believe that those who are monumental this season are being showcased. Bobby Jon and his pushing and pushing. Stephenie and her determination in winning, Coby and his personal quest to be victorious, Angie and her prevailing despite being an underdog, Tom in his shark slaying and huge leadership role and so forth appear to be a direct “editing attack” (if you will) against the disappointment of others. Therefore, the editing may be misleading since in another season, they would “appear” to be potential winners; in this season these people are ALL WINNERS and Mark Burnett is sending a very pointed message about giving up
THIS IS THE VERY REASON THEY NEED TO NOT TRY TO RECRUIT THE HARD BODIES BUT RETURN TO THE DAYS OF OLD AND ALLOW PEOPLE TO AUDITION FOR THIS. THEY WANT IT BAD ENOUGH TO STAY IN THE GAME. -LANI

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
04-22-05, 06:36 PM (EST)

48. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

An extremely powerful episode in terms of messages sent and editing decisions. Obviously we were prepared for some time for Janu's departure that were solidified by Coby's instruction to her to "just quit already" Interestingly enough, she had to be prodded a little to do just that as she thought her own tribe would do her the honor.
The Characters and their Editing
Let's begin with the person that I will assume everyone is discussing with loathing
Katie
I must go back and repeat something I had already noted some time ago (the groans are duly noted ) Aside from time issues, continuity of story and so forth, one of the main purposes of editing is manipulation. Scenes, dialogue, expressions, etc. are edited together purposely to achieve a collective response. Not everyone responds the same but the majority does. Katie is being classically manipulated for us. This is not to say that the events and expressions and thoughts did NOT happen but rather, her negative aspects of her character are what is shown to us.
Did Katie have good days? Did Katie entertain? Did Katie work some days? Does Katie have friends there? I'm sure the answer to all these questions is yes However, Mark Burnett CLEARLY does not want the audience to like her, moreso than anyone else. The question therefore is why? In terms of this show it is usually for one reason only......
This character is meant to stir our emotions negatively so we are thrilled when they fail
I had mentioned one time that I went back and re-watched an episode and attempted to be objective in viewing it, i.e. not allow my subjectivity on who I liked the most interfere and also attempt to "fill in the cutting room floor activity" In doing this, I noticed that Katie was not nearly as bad but Mark Burnett was attempting to make her so.
I used to always laugh at reality show contestants who claim the editing made them look bad; however, they have a valid point. The events are there but if not one good moment is presented about them when there were those moments, then, yes, the editing did, in fact, make them look worse than they were. This also is true for those who are made to look stellar in their edit as well (Rupert is the prime example)

Let's pretend that up until now all we saw was Janu being lazy, Janu making insulting remarks about Katie and so forth while at the same time, Katie, up until now, had some negative moments but remained essentially low key. Now let's revisit last night's episode. Would Katie have looked as horrific if up until now, Janu was shown to be evil about Katie? I suspect our feelings about Katie would not be as severe and even Jeff got into the act with her.
Katie:"She was sitting there like a jack in the box, creepy......"
Jeff:"Katie really slowing down her tribe"
Jeff:"Jenn, Steph and Ian doing all the work....... Katie worn out"
Jeff:"You can only move as quickly as your slowest member....." (Shots of Katie everywhere)
Katie:"Hell yeah, I'm glad it isn't me........"(Laughing and giggling )
Jeff:Katie, why keep you?
I think it is fair to say that Mark Burnett has major intentions with Katie and what is probably every day normal behavior that can annoy people at times is being thrown fast and furious at us in order to establish a perfect foil.
Gregg
Gregg's edit also went down as well in this episode. We heard quite a bit from him regarding Janu, Stephenie and his thoughts on the game for himself. The irony is that everything he said about the game made perfect sense BUT since it was meshed with a negative aura (if you will) what sounded very logical came off arrogant and unlikeable.
Examples:
"Some people think Steph deserves to stay but I don't care. I only care if someone plays a role in my strategy to help me win a million dollars."
This confessional is, in actuality, a very smart view of this game. In light of the fact that he is making the statement about someone who is being edited to really root for, it may bring out negative response from viewers. Therefore, this does not bode well for Gregg.
And at TC:
"This is not about worthiness, everyone who wants to win is a threat to me, plans have been established and some people are threats in those plans. Survivor not about fairness and who deserves what....."
Again, an extremely logical outlook but he is also saying this at the expense of a contestant that Mark Burnett has made sure to be viewed pretty positively. While there are some of those who aren't as infatuated with Stephenie as others, Mark Burnett clearly is and is also attempting to establish other contestants as the "bad guys" As said before, in a show with really no villains, they must be created.
Gregg's character was also peppered with specific shots of him laughing (at Janu) during the IC and while I do plan on analyzing the show in more detail, my first inclination was that Katie, then Gregg and Ian were doing most of the laughing with regard to Janu. The fact though that Ian's negativity was not embellished by other situations (such as Stephenie) did not make him appear as bad as Gregg though; moreso "goofy"
Ian
Ian has an interesting edit. For the most, he showed us his great adventure, showed his deference to Tom with a splash of game talk. He was (by prior standards) somewhat under the radar this episode except for some key moments which established his being integral to the end plans of Koror. He was part of the main conversation about voting out Stephenie, he was shown to be directly asked (and very uncomfortable) by Stephenie as to her status, he was shown to be a key figure in changing the tide at TC..........
Ian"If you feel like you don't want to continue, then you have the power to do that to set your torch down...."
I now have two open question to everyone
1. How did you feel when Ian made this statement?
2. If Gregg were to have made that comment, would your response have been different?
I'm not going to include Tom, Stephenie, Katie, Jenn or Caryn in this since I feel that Gregg's arc is being developed very thoughtfully by Mark Burnett.
Caryn
I will give everyone a breather and move on to Caryn. Caryn did have a rise in visibility which was to be expected. She is now forced to be part of this game, whether by her own active movement or by the will of others. The numbers are factoring into this. Caryn was shown finally discussing Katie again and in a negative confessional regarding Katie's comments on Janu. This had been put on a back burner (Katie/Caryn) and an inkling of same is now shown again. This may be the start of a loose end to be tied up or simply reinforcement to the audience of Katie's character. The amusing part is when Caryn FIRST talked about Katie, Caryn was received negatively and Katie more positive. This seems ages ago and now Caryn's confessional was probably met with heads nodding. My "guess" is this was just more "evidence" to solidify Katie in a negative role.
Caryn also though had a relevant moment at TC:
Caryn"......I am shocked, if she (Janu) chooses to take it that way, that is in Janu's head"
Caryn's comment may have been included for two reason. One would be to allow us to see a little bit more of Caryn since her role will probably increase and the seeds are being planted for same. The other may in fact be that, while Janu was shown to come to a spiritual decision and edited perhaps to soften her "quitting" it was still QUITTING. I almost felt like I was floating on Janu's cloud and Caryn's comment brought me back down to earth. I personally felt no negativity when I heard Caryn but rather stopped to perhaps agree a bit.
Jenn
I feel no sense of Jenn the person in this game which actually is a double edged sword in terms of characterization. She is merely a conduit for other players, i.e. someone who is essentially a character who is meant to hear another and either agree or disagree with them. Gregg says something, she will tell us she agrees. Tom says something, she tells us she doesn't agree, Katie says something and she will nod her head in agreement and so forth. Those types of characters are not given any depth to be important enough to win but in the same token are not important enough to be seen by those who ARE important to leave. She is a parrot and a parrot merely reinforces the important points made by the original speaker.
Stephenie
How do you solve a problem like Stephenie? A woman on an absolutely horrific tribe who lost every immunity, who clearly wants to be in this game (amongst those who don't) and virtually has no "leg to stand on" You give her an overwhelming edit complete with tears. If anyone is to be compared to Rupert, it is not Tom, it is Stephenie. I noticed specifically that while Stephenie was visible during every negative conversation (Jenn/Katie talking) Stephenie involved in eating the food the four came back with, the Immunity Challenge exchanges about Janu; she was NEVER shown first and foremost as a main contender of nasty behavior.
Examples:
Regarding the feast: You guys are the best
About immunity: .... just hope I get immunity (shots of her looking extremely concerned as Tom is given necklace)
About Steph: Steph appears to be going home, not where my heart is but anything can happen and I'm going to really miss her
Steph regarding Janu: you seem like you feel better.... and Janu seems happier
and of course at Tribal Council
I know I am in the hot seat, it kills me that someone wants to go home and they will keep her around. I guess I showed too much heart and too much will and Don't do this for me (to Janu) and naturally Tom's remark of how she would fit in where he works at home.
Ironically, she was relatively low key (in comparison to her HUGE showings in every other episode) except to establish two key factors
Regardless that she is very well received by this tribe, she is a threat and feels vulnerable and she will not go down softly.
As already discussed, Mark Burnett is capitalizing on those who are playing hard this season and while Stephenie (next week) appears to be trying to bite off more than she can chew, she really is going up against quite a few people who Mark Burnett is attempting to look worse. Her actions may not be perceived that wonderfully but I suspect she may be forgiven by the audience
Tom
The concern of Tom being one dimensional started abating several episodes ago which we felt then would bode well for him. It is unnecessary to detail every aspect of his character this episode but he was essential in just about every event last night and while his comments were not necessarily well received by the audience, again, it appeared that Mark Burnett allowed others to look worse than he did.
He assisted greatly in winning the reward
He spoke outside of the game during the meeting of the natives to add that human element
He commented on Janu eating the food that was brought back but this was overshadowed by Katie's comment
He of course wins immunity and during the exchanges at the challenge, comments by others with their laughter left the most impression
He spoke with Gregg and Ian regarding booting Stephenie but this was overshadowed by all of Gregg's comments
He spoke at Tribal Council but again, overshadowed by other comments that seemed somewhat harsher.
Next week should be a key development since Tom is an intended target for Stephenie. How his edit is layed out versus Stephenie, who has been groomed for the viewers to root for should give the biggest clue as to where Tom is heading. If someone OTHER than Tom is meant to appear as the enemy to Stephenie's outcome, Tom should be in a very good position.

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smokedog 1885 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-22-05, 06:55 PM (EST)

49. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

>Ian"If you feel like you don't
>want to continue, then you
>have the power to do
>that to set your torch
>down...."
>1. How did you feel
>when Ian made this statement?
I felt like Ian was very smart, and used Janu as a tool to ensure Steph got to survive one more TC. She is in (one of his) alliances (K,I,T,S). By egging Janu on, he got one of Gregg's pawns out of the game and kept one for himself.
>2. If Gregg were to
>have made that comment, would
>your response have been different?
I would have been shocked if Gregg made the comment. He is a gamer and wants to keep Janu in the game because he plans to use her. He wants Steph out at all costs and would/should not do anything to keep her around.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-22-05, 07:21 PM (EST)

50. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Great comments, Veruca! But then, that's nothing new.
Going back to your questions, Ian's remark made me think that he wanted to push Janu a little bit so that they wouldn't have to vote. He doesn't want to vote Stephenie out but can't stand against the alliance. Gregg didn't say anything to Janu that I remember. I would have been surprised had he done otherwise since he wanted her to stay.
Since you went back to Katie's appreciation, I know we had an exchange previously on it and I agree that Jeff stressed the fact that Katie was slowing down her team, but still it isn't editing that made her last each time they had to swim back to shore. Jeff only once told us that Caryn wasn't working with Tom and Gregg but we saw her keeping up during each swim. Since her team was always ahead there wasn't a need to stress her poor contribution. Katie also quit early in the IC. Coby's dislike of her, although stressed by editing, was genuine and that also is telling us that she isn't a deserving player, yet there hasn't been yet a single thought by the others that she should be voted out. That's the worse irritation for most of the viewers. Of course, if I were one of the survivors, I'd want to go up against Katie just like Brian wanted to go up against Clay in Thailand. However if you remember Clay came within 1 vote of winning. That'a hard to stomach!

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katethegreat 207 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-25-05, 02:34 PM (EST)

53. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Re: VS's questions -
I had a positive response to Ian when he said that - Yeah! Steph might last one more day. If Gregg had made the statement, I would have been surprised. Did it make Ian look a little naive? because I didn't see it as strategic, but rather as honest.
Re: Katie - Willard also was negative about her in his after the game comments. I think it was his final words were he said he liked eight out of the nine people. Katie's comment when casting her vote for him was catty. It's not all editing that is making her look bad, although I'm sure you are right that the editing is being manipulated. I also think that I wouldn't like her IRL.

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ElroyJetson 586 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-25-05, 01:01 PM (EST)

51. "Steph's arc is done"

I think the TC ended Steph's arc. It was competitor vs quitter and the quitter lost. Quitters never win and winners never quit. Previews for next week make it appear that Steph may get greedy. Greed is not good and neither is overplaying your hand. Doesn't look good for Steph.
--Elroy Jetson

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Dakota 5819 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-25-05, 01:39 PM (EST)

52. "RE: Steph's arc is done"

Steph's tears after BJ left upped her likeability. Steph's tears at TC were seen negatively by many. MB builds heroes and villains, and then starts to bring the heroes down a notch, while making the villains more likeable. Even with Janu, who was seen as a benign entity, had it out with Katie, helped win reward and even quitting, put a chink in the tribe's plans. Katie, however, has been shown negatively since day 1. While many thought Caryn was the villain in their argument, Katie's confessional showed insecurity and defensiveness--nose and chin up, brushing away hair not in her face "She just lost it" with a little head shake--and then she brings it back to the whole tribe, rather than letting it drop. This was followed by a scene where someone says something needs to be done, and Katie is standing with hands on hips saying "It's not going to be me." She is then shown as the town gossip, lazy at camp and challenges. MB wants us to dislike someone even after the credits have rolled. (Can you say "Jeri?")
Charter Member: Club Anti-DAW

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redbeard103152 466 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
04-25-05, 05:04 PM (EST)

54. "RE: Steph's arc is done"

Dakota You hit the nail on the head with the editing of Katie. She has really been getting the negative edit and being set up as the perfect final 2 foil. This seasons survivors will not make the mistake that Colby made in the Outback. Katie will skate her way to the end and will finish second.RedBeard

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hunniebunns 119 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-25-05, 06:19 PM (EST)

55. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

1. How did you feel when Ian made this statement?
I felt like this was a vaild point. He was essentially putting it in her hands rather then in the hands of the tribe. He let her know that SHE was the one who had a choice. That SHE didn't have to voted out, she could simply leave.

2. If Gregg were to have made that comment, would your response have been different?
Maybe. Just because I don't like Gregg as much and I'm sure that it's for the reasons you've stated above. He's comes off as cocky and arrogant, to me. Ian, however, comes off like my little brother, goofy (I believe, that was your word for him too.)
I had the same feeling about Caryn re: her statement @ TC. It almost me think that she had no! idea! what was even in Janu's head. This, coupled with Janu's happy dance made me feel like she was a bit more flighty than I previously thought...
The rest of your assesment is spot on. I still have no idea who Jenn is. And,(run-on sentence alert), will get a million dollar prize as "The most Deserving Survivor who belonged to a sucky tribe but had all the heart of a real winner". Tom, imo, is getting a winners edit...I think that Steph trying to get Tom will certainly not succeed and she could come off (to the audience) biting the hand that feeds her since Tom is the one who really likes her and was/is trying to keep her.
btw, I have really enjoyed your insights and great insights they are.

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JazzyJax 531 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-25-05, 07:13 PM (EST)

56. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Just to add to the pot:
1. How did you feel when Ian made this statement?
I felt this was a fair statement, and coming from Ian, non-judgemental. He did a good job at playing the go-between without coming off as cocky. He clearly is effected more by emotions and is leaning towards the "deserving" issue as he made that comment gently opposing Tom while laying on the floor of the shelter: "how long do we continue to award Janu's type of behavior?" (not a direct quote)
2. If Gregg were to have made that comment, would your response have been different?
Absolutely. Greg doesn't appear to be openly trying to take on a leadership role during regular tribe days but is shown as clever yet snotty, in his private interviews. He's the cat sitting back ready to pounce but is not actively orchestrating anything. His earlier discussions with Coby were lessened later with his comment to "keep him in mind" when Coby was nearing the end of the tribes patience. We have no idea if he went to Coby to encourage an attitude adjustment but it looks as if Greg is playing the field too broadly without committing to a solid plan.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-25-05, 11:34 PM (EST)

57. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I now have two open question to everyone
1. How did you feel when Ian made this statement?
2. If Gregg were to have made that comment, would your response have been different?
I had several thoughts about his statement. 1. He is a player of emotion and was clearly moved by Stephs plea. 2. He, in essence, is saying the same sort of things, with much greater tack mind you, that Lex and Coby have said about undeserving players being left in this game. 3. I felt it was a tad strategic, because once again delayed Koror having to make a difficult IC vote.
If Gregg had made that statement it would have come off as self serving. He's already been shown to be playing the game ruthlessly, not caring for individuals, but rather his own self interest.
I also have a few additional thoughts on that same situation, in regards to editing.
We never heard Tom's thoughts on who he would have voted for. Editing made it appear to be Steph, classic EPMB misdirection IMO. This, coupled with Steph's comments that she hadn't talked to anyone about TC, made it appear that Tom was going to vote for her. Tom was shown listening to what Gregg had to say about Steph. This, IMO, shows that Gregg has no idea about Tom's secret relationship with Steph. We also know that Gregg does view Tom as threat. Gregg is playing a smart game. He is playing by the mantra of, keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. I was struck by how Gregg was trying to convince Tom to vote out Steph, which would in essence cause Tom to cut his own throat.
What I'm trying to say with all of this rambling is that I am far from convinced that Tom would have voted for Steph. By Janu quitting it delayed, until the next vote, the alliance break down.
Gregg
I find it ironic that the same strategy used by Chris last season is being employed by Gregg. This sort of cut throat mentality that we did not see in Chris's edit, except in glimpses, and were not privy to until the final TC, is being used by Gregg. The difference is that 1. Gregg is the dominant tribe and, 2. EPMB is not editing them the same way. Chris's comments, although harsh at times, were funny, while Gregg's appear to be very mean and uncarring.
This is the difference in editing, as VS pointed out above . This is why the editing thread is so important to figuring out this game.
Ian

I don't believe we have ever had a person edited the way Ian has been edited in this game. He has the unique combination of being a fierce competitor with this sort of happy go lucky attitude that has been shown throughout the game.
I was also struck by how he lost to Tom twice, most notable in the IC were he finished second. We have yet to hear any fustration by him finishing second to Tom.
I keep going back to his speach at TC and how powerful of an effect it had on Janu. He seems to be very good at convincing her with out seeming to pushy. Notice how Janu was not upset with what Ian said when he was clearly speaking to her. This may have also had something to do with how Janu liking the direct approach rather than the jr. high talking behind someones back approach.
Tom
Tom is playing his game very close to the vest. He is clearly the biggest threat out there. We did not hear one word from Jiffy at the IC, or TC that jTom had won his second IC in a row. Jiffy usually likes to emphasize that point. At TC there were no questions to Tom about if he feels like winning is going to put a target on his back, as a matter of fact, there were to questions directed towards Tom at all.
We know that Tom has his eye on Gregg and Jenn, but does he know that Gregg wants to break away from his alliance with T/I/K?
Steph
There was a definate change in her edit this week. She was more desperate. When she was faced with a similar situation at Ulong with BJ and Ibe we didn't see all of this emotion. Then, we saw her deterimation. This time we saw her desperation. Her crying and carring on may have been strategic, but I don't think so. She has been scratching and clawing at this game since the beginning and we may be seeing the chink in her armour of strength. This was not a possitive turn IMO.
She is clearly a MB favorite, so she isn't going to go out like Coby or Janu. MB will have here fighting to the end. By the end will be thinking that she fought the good fight, but lost not because of her self, but because she was in an impossible situation.

Katie
Like VS, I believe that EPMB has a definate plan in mind for Katie. She seems to always be in the center of fights that happen in her tribe, yet she is never talked about as a target. She is shown to be mean, lazy around camp, and bad at physical challanges. If Gregg is the villian, then she is the villanes.
Caryn
She has slid into the background for now. This next episode could be critical one for her, because as we have been told before, if there is to be a change in the power structure, it should happen when the tribe is at 7 or 5. We will find out if it is to late for her. Either way I believe that there is still another confrontation to be had between her and Katie.
Jenn
I mention her last because there is little to say about her. She is just there, and very inconsequential to the game. Who ever makes it to the final two will not be decided because of something that she will do.
The final seven
This is when we see what the tribal break down is going to look like. Major moves are made either here or at 5. I don't see it happening at 5 as T/I/K are a solid three. In order to affect a change in the game there are two important people, Steph and Caryn.
Steph has to know that her time is nearing unless she makes a move. She is on the outside looking in of both alliances. She will not be able to cry or plead her way to the final three unless she does one of two things. 1. Change the tribe dynamics, which is a 50/50 move at best or start winning IC which is going to be very difficult to do with T/I/G left in the game. She would be wise to try to get one of those three out of the game.
Caryn has to realize that she can't physically compete against anyone left except for Katie and Jenn, both of whom are in solid alliances. Therefore, she must change the dynamics of the game by breaking up one of those alliances. She needs to position herself as a perfect F2. Her strategy should be the opposite of Steph's. She needs to target the weaker ones of her tribe and let the strong players try to pick each other off. This is why I see here battle with Katie as important, because as long as she is in the game Caryn will not have a chance.
DRONES

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
04-26-05, 07:53 AM (EST)

59. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-26-05 AT 09:45 AM (EST)

Thank you all very much for your insight and your opinions. As much as I like to dissect the show ad naseum, I much prefer reading what everyone else thinks.

Of course there is no question the behavior we see each week happened However, the purpose of editing is to manipulate the audience to root for the good "guy" and boo the bad "guy" This is the nature of this medium and especially Survivor.

Katie is a perfect foil and is being established purposely I believe, by Mark Burnett and company. Naturally, her behavior there has not been viewed kindly by those on the island; we know this by what they say and we see the the things she does and the expressions she makes and so forth. But I do believe that if Katie were to be shown every other week behaving kindly, working around camp and trying her best at challenges, we would not be so firm in our opinion of her. Additionally, Ian, Tom, Jenn and Gregg must find something somewhat enjoyable about her besides being a good final two partner as I do believe to a degree that unless she provided some enjoyment, she may be booted because she has all these other negative qualities.

I remember in S4 the wonderful Kathy Kathy was NOT so wonderful for the first half of the season and, in fact, most people watching AND on her tribe could barely stomach her. The turn in her characterization was amazing to behold. Suddenly she was this wonderful underdog with a vulnerability but also a tenacity that suddenly had the audience rooting for her purposefully. I'm sure she did evolve as a person there but what a transformation that I question to this day.

Katie is being showcased extremely negative and as already stated there is normally only one reason and that is for us to cheer at her demise. If you look at past winners, the "negative" ones were usually still viewed by us as strategic or crafty or at least, working extremely hard to perservere (Brian, Rich, Chris and the like) Jenna M, negative to many viewers definitely received a redemption towards the conclusion of the series (though some considered this too little too late Tina and Vee never really had an extreme negative showings and while Sandra was "mouthy" and didn't seem to work extremely hard or win any challenges, we enjoyed her spunk and more importantly, she was the voice of the audience's loathing of Jonny Fairplay as he was our true catalyst. I do not compare All Stars because these players were already known to us and Mark Burnett's message (as we discussed then) was more about these players inevitably making the same mistakes and not being able to change who they were and how they played the game before.

(Forgive any inconsistencies in terms of who ended up taking whom as ultimately the story surrounding the final two people are developed certain ways regardless of who ends up being the one to take the other)
Katie has none of the token editing makeup of a winner but certainly can be shown as the final two foil and the editing is most definitely assisting in that. I will suggest, however, that IF Katie's edit start to shift now (compare to Jenna as an example) and the other final two person (who we have discussed that Tom and Ian for a long time were the best candidates) shows a dramatic shifting in their editing, then we may be faced with a puzzle
DRONES, I'm glad you brought up reactionary issues with regards to winning and losing. Earlier when Koror had lost reward challenges, we had discussed how it was interesting there was no backlash about it and usually there is. Tom winning and his "threat" status has barely been touched upon. We have had dribs and drabs of it but to the extent that Tom appears to be in such domination (in challenges and the tribe) one would expect to be a major topic of conversation and it isn't. The irony of Tom's statement about Stephenie being the "wolf in sheep's clothing" seems more self descriptive at this time

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-26-05, 07:23 AM (EST)

58. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

one
>of the main purposes of
>editing is manipulation.
>Scenes, dialogue, expressions, etc. are
>edited together purposely to achieve
>a collective response. Not everyone
>responds the same but the majority does.
VS the collective response varies depending upon the collection of people receiving the message.
Firstly, I don't think that these message boards are a true cross-section of the audience who watch this show. I think the best way to see who the general audience is taking a liking to is to view the popularity poll on the CBS site.
Another example is talking to all my friends here (in australia) who are big watchers of survivor (but not spoilers) I cannot help but notice that it is Tom who they all see as the villain. My whole family detest the man, as do all the other my other friends who watch the show. Conversely, Katie is really not viewed all that negatively at all - in fact I have heard very little talk of Katie.
Call it the tall poppy syndrome, but generally Australians can't stand people who over achieve and suffer no consequence for it. Tom is the antithesis of what many of us find appealing: he wins all the time, he runs the show, he is slightly arrogant, we are being TOLD he is a hero (NY Firefighter EVERYTIME he talks - seriously, i don't care). I know I can't stand it, and neither can alot of my friends.
It may just be the section of Australian society that I come from, but I really find that America's favourite players can be quite different from Australia's favourite players (once again, maybe I am speaking to the wrong people).
My question to you is: do you think that MB edits the show with only an American audience in mind? I think yes, almost definately. Although a portion of me is praying that MB has edited this show for a different Counrty's populous, because the thought of Tom winning sends shivers down my spine.
Is MB willing to edit this season to cater for the satisfaction of an audience minority? Already we have seen a strong underdog theme this season (Coby, Angie) could we be seeing the ascent of someone the typical audience member wouldn't like?
Coby's thoughts about the problem he has with the alpha male have haunted me - why would this issue have been raised if it isn't important. Sure, it was a personal thing of Coby's, but it involved alot of other people.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
04-26-05, 10:47 AM (EST)

60. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

applejack you bring up extremely valid points with regard to Survivor and views cross culture and that is probably a great study that could be done
The popularity results on the CBS website show Tom, Stephenie, Ian and Bobby Jon as the most popular. Now these results do not surprise me but as you point out, it may be different in other countries and it may even be in different in other states in the United States.
I know nothing about the thought process of other countries obviously nor do I even know the thought process of the person standing next to me but in the course of every Survivor, there has been a "standard" (if you will) of who is "accepted" as a player (so to speak)
In essence, my observations have been over a long period of time watching the show and noting the response from people on this board as well as the general polls and discussion from people I know who watch the show purely to watch and not dissect it to death
I have found that marginally people are accepting of arrogance in a winner IF they put their money with their mouth is. Now I personally do not see Tom as "arrogant" (though I can certainly appreciate how others would) I tend to see him more "confident" in his position. Chris and Brian (as the show progressed) gave off "arrogance" to me; Tom hasn't approached that level (in my opinion only )
Is MB willing to edit this season to cater for the satisfaction of an audience minority? Already we have seen a strong underdog theme this season (Coby, Angie) could we be seeing the ascent of someone the typical audience member wouldn't like?
Coby's thoughts about the problem he has with the alpha male have haunted me - why would this issue have been raised if it isn't important. Sure, it was a personal thing of Coby's, but it involved alot of other people.
You ask great questions I can only offer my opinion (which means you really need to ask someone else lol)
I don't know that Mark Burnett is catering to a minority, majority or HIMSELF and how he wants to show his winner that particular season. I do think that he, like the contestants, learns from past mistakes (Vee) but I think Mark Burnett decides on what he wants to accomplish and plans accordingly.
I agree the "underdog" path was an important storyline this season and I think that it was not just an individual storyline. We had certain individual's OWN journey and their story as you mention.......
Angie and Coby were palpable characters unto themselves and deserved attention. In addition they personalized to us their thoughts of being outsiders but will not quit. In a season full of those who gave up, people like Coby and Angie were admired for their tenacity and spirit despite not feeling like they fit in and they deserved that recognition as underdogs in Survivor usually get. Coby's personal issues though were relevant to him. But, interestingly enough KOROR as a group were, on paper, the underdogs. This was addressed throughout the season with the marginally physically fit and "attractive" people on Ulong. So in essence, the underdog theme did not belong exclusively to Coby or Angie but Koror as well.
I had asked those who would assist to answer two questions and now applejack you have brought up another question for me to ask You already answered
1. If you don't mind saying, where are you from (city, country, etc.) what do you think of Tom. If you can describe him in a word or two, that is helpful
2. How would you describe Katie?
3. What is the ONE criteria as a viewer that you want to see in your winner?

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Dakota 5819 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-26-05, 11:32 AM (EST)

61. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Applejack and Ver! It's interesting to hear how others view the same people/situations. So let me "assist".
>1. If you don't mind
>saying, where are you from
>(city, country, etc.) what do
>you think of Tom.
>If you can describe him
>in a word or two,
>that is helpful
Midwestern city, USA
Tom: Strong, confident
>2. How would you describe
>Katie?
Lazy, insecure
>3. What is the ONE
>criteria as a viewer that
>you want to see in
>your winner?
Effort. Integrity.
(That's two, I know. I somehow got that old protestant work ethic in me and both seem to apply.) I didn't like seeing Vee win by default IMO, and I don't like the schemers and backstabbers winning, and I don't want the lemmings/leaches, (e.g., Katie) winning. I want to see someone who deserves it win. (Although what constitutes "deserving it" is hotly debated.) I often liken it to sports - the team/individual that works the hardest, plays the best. The nature of Survivor makes it difficult to win without ever lying or backing out of an agreement because relationships play a big part, not just physical or mental ability, like sports or game shows. But I also don't like giving hero status to the best liar or con artist, or rewarding a total lack of effort with a win because you didn't offend or pose a threat.
Charter Member: Club Anti-DAW

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Kiddiepool 25 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
04-26-05, 11:45 AM (EST)

62. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-26-05 AT 11:48 AM (EST)
Ooh, I love these questions. AJ, I totally agree with you about Tom and Katie.
1) From Brooklyn, NY - I find Tom arrogant and bossy. I feel that Koror has likely handed him the $1 Million by not challenging his hero status. Tom is manipulating the game and yet being given a free pass by his tribe. He did not need the IN the past two weeks, and yet has flaunted his strength in front of his tribemates.
2) Katie is insecure and it comes out as cattiness. She does not deserve the $1 million, but also does not deserve the negative edit MB is giving her. I will be happy for her if she comes in second.
3) Perhaps this is shallow, but my primary criteria for picking a winner is likeability. (Thus Brian Heidik is by far my least favorite winner)

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braveheart 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-26-05, 01:24 PM (EST)

63. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Interesting points VS and AJ.
I feel like AJ does for the most part, except I think Tom's arrogance, confidence and strength will take him to the money. Do the other's feel so intimidated by Tom that they don't dare try to cross him? Stephanie may try this week, and Jenn another week (the shower issue) but they will ultimately loose. It always baffles me as to why when it gets down to the final Survivors they don't just vote out the most obvious threat (Remember Romber). Greg must know that Tom has the numbers in K/I/T vs. his G/J. I'm assuming Greg doesn't do the smart thing and ally with S/C/J and vote Tom out this week. Does Tom win immunity again?
Alot of my friends want to see Stephanie win. People round here were upset when Coby (humor value) and Angie (underdog) were voted off. I think the Canadians share similar values as the Australians. To answer your question AppleJack:
"My question to you is: do you think that MB edits the show with only an American audience in mind?"... Proof that MB caters to the American audience is seen in his American contestants only rule.
1. Manitoba, Canada
2. Arrogant/Paternalistic/Strong/Sexist
3. Lazy/Childish/Smart-You have to give her credit for clinging on to the strongest players on Korror and maintaining a solid alliance of 3.

Braveheart

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imrastro 4 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
04-26-05, 02:40 PM (EST)

64. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Hi.
I never post, but I read this thread regularly. So, thanks VS for the best analysis on the web.
I consider myself a fairly average viewer. I watch with about 5 other people none of whom read the boards. I figured an answer from a non-spoiler might be relevant.
1. San Francisco CA
2. Tom: competent but oblivious. Maybe even over-confident. I know this is counter to how some see his edit, but I'm recollecting his failure to realize the effect of his shark head on Coby as well as a host of other apparent slights to him. But he's still appealing. My group are all waiting to see him attacked.
3. Katie: rude, undeserving. That's the general consensus of my group. We would actually be ok with her winning if she was edited to be acting in a determined fashion and not just trying to be funny: If she was shown to be strategizing. As it is, not so much.
I look for game play in my winner. I'm fine with an under-the-radar winner provided that appears to be the deliberate strategy. My group loved that Sandra won. Oddly, we are also swayed by likeability, however. So, while we appreciated Chris' game play, by the end of the final episode we all hated him for his BS at tribal counsel. It was a very predictable but unsatisfying win.
I think, after so many seasons, we're tired of the inevitable airing of personal disputes or slights as a reason for voting the winner. We're tired of the apologies for acts that the winner did deliberately and that led to a win. In retrospect, we all talk glowingly of Rich and his honesty regarding how he played better then those sitting on the jury. Based on Jeff P's interview in Entertainment Weekly prior to the beginning of this season, I think the editors are aware of this feeling out amongst the masses. (He commented directly on it.) I'm starting to see Tom as a guy who is being edited not to look like Rich in terms of style, but rather honesty. I fully expect him to be in the final two and to unapologetically own up to every move he made in the game. He seems to be doing that so far. Course, I am no spoiler nor even a gifted follower of editing, so I could be really wrong.

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hunniebunns 119 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-26-05, 03:03 PM (EST)

65. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-26-05 AT 03:05 PM (EST)
these are really great questions...
1. If you don't mind saying, where are you from (city, country, etc.) what do you think of Tom. If you can describe him in a word or two, that is helpful
Selma, Al.
I like Tom. I think he's shown confidence and a will to win. His work ethic seems to be great too.
2. How would you describe Katie?
I like Katie. I know, I may the only one but I can't help it. Sure she's a little catty but I think it's mostly the editing.

3. What is the ONE criteria as a viewer that you want to see in your winner?
Not sure if I can pick one. I want a Survivor that is intense and has fought tooth and nail to be there. Someone who can form a srategy and stick with it.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-26-05, 07:45 PM (EST)

66. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Great idea VS; analyzing the analyzers!
I'm a French Canadian from Montreal
1- I find Tom strong and very competent. I like him.
2- I find Katie incapable
3- I want the winner to have determination. For this series, Tom, Stephenie, Gregg or Ian (in order of preference) would all make good winners. (Rob M should've won All-star).

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JazzyJax 531 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-26-05, 08:25 PM (EST)

67. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS, are you a shrink in real life? What a fun game...
<<1. If you don't mind saying, where are you from (city, country, etc.)>>
Groton, NY (upstate)

<<What do you think of Tom. If you can describe him in a word or two, that is helpful>>
Strong, delegating, domineering

<<2. How would you describe Katie?>>
Insecure, whiny, bratty

<<3. What is the ONE criteria as a viewer that you want to see in your winner?>>
Absolute great player of the game

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-26-05, 10:38 PM (EST)

69. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-27-05 AT 08:25 AM (EST)
OK, I'll respond, here goes;
1. 1. If you don't mind saying, where are you from (city, country, etc.) what do you think of Tom. If you can describe him in a word or two, that is helpful
Deep south, Alabama/Mississippi/Louisiana.

An unforced, very natural leader, good personality assessor, a focused game player, seems to have a compassionate side, is disciplined. And, as an aside, he may have a drinking problem, not because of the quick inebriation - natural given their diet –, but because of the picture of him off to side chugging from the bottled spirits that the natives brought. That reaction is a possible indication of substance abuse.

The assertiveness required of a leader often is a feather ruffler, and it seems that he has experience in blunting that negative effect. The survivors, even with an occasional squawk, seem to have accepted him as a leader.
He is very smooth I think, and compares very favorably in that respect IMO with the other Survivor leader examples, most (all) of whom seemed to force themselves down other peoples throats, or who couldn’t handle dissent well.
USA people might be more willing to view Tom favorably because of the NYPD connection and their heroics. The view of him from those outside the USA is perfectly valid also, though, and I can understand it, even agree to a degree.
And no, I can’t do it in a word or two, Sorry. I’m just a wordy guy.
2. How would you describe Katie?
The perfect F2 partner. Her edit is so narrow that you know that you are being had in respect to her. All the things that she has done have been really pretty innocuous, babbling on and on to PO Caryn, snide remarks behind Janu’s back, got on Coby’s bad side (oh really, and who didn’t?), really pretty petty stuff.
Yet she is being framed with those petty little bickerings as a much worse. She is shown as a gabby, snide, lazy, and selfish. Her unwillingness to compete all-out in challenges is also a negative that JP jumps on when he can.
(I like her because she, with her editing, is great lampooning material).
3. What is the ONE criterion as a viewer that you want to see in your winner?
A Stephenie. An Ian.

OK you asked for a criterion – just one, huh…..I guess I would have to say “Likeability”.
I suspect that this is too general for your use, but as I considered more specific traits, I realized that almost every specific criterion can be that of a positive or a negative character, depending on something. Leadership being an excellent example, but also intelligence (should be positive, but how many villains are also intelligent, lots), athletics, honesty, UTR-ness, upfront directness, sense of humor (Fairplay?), ingenuity (or slyness?), game play (again Fairplay?), compassionate (Lill?), physical beauty.

So, whatever combination of traits, as long as they combine into a likable character.
If, after all that equivacation, I was still pressed to name a more specific characteristic that I need to see in a winner, I would have to say intelligence.
ETA: I didn't read the other posting until after I posted.

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
04-27-05, 08:48 AM (EST)

70. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS can I answer question three anyway?
The ability to take advantage of someone without them noticing. Brian, Vecepia, Sandra and Tina were the best at this. And some may argue that Vecepia didn't deserve it but I am a true believer that it is just as hard to leech on to others as it is to carry the leeches.

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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
04-27-05, 09:15 AM (EST)

72. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

1. Midwest
Tom--skillful, caring, controlling
2. Katie --social butterfly, controlling, catty
3. Winner-- strategic, skillful but not a complete jerk ala Fairplay

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MargoChanning 14 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
04-29-05, 10:13 AM (EST)

86. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Long, long, long time lurker - first time poster, mostly because I'm enthralled by VS's thread!
Minneapolis
1. I view Tom as strong, honest, up front. And he's right - no one like him has ever won. Colby got the closest, but others, like Hunter, were voted out quickly because of their strength.
2. Katie - feh. If she and Steph had been reversed - Katie on Ulong and Steph on Koror, she wouldn't have even made the merge. Great F2 partner, but I hate seeing someone like her make it to the end.
3. They have to be someone I can root for. That comes in many different forms with each season, but this season I can root for Tom and Steph, even BJ and maybe Ian, although he hasn't shown much in the way of game-play.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-26-05, 09:47 PM (EST)

68. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Excellent questions AJ.
I really believe that EPMB edits this show with the mostly America in mind. All the contestants are American and the show is given a strong push by CBS with all the advertising and interviews. This is bolstered by articles in TV guide and other publications and the live finally in either NY or LA.
EPMB has found a general formula for editing and general sticks to that format. He does change things up from season to season to highlight a theme(s) that works for the specific people on the show and how the game is played by the individuals as well as the general dynamics of the game.
We have seen a couple of prominant themes this season. The first one being about quiting and quiters. We all know that EPMB cut his teath on the Eco Challange with it's over riding theme of man vs nature, but an underlying theme to that is man vs man when placed in a group situation. The struggles of these people makes for some good TV, great with proper editing. MB wants all of the participants to try as hard as they can. Quiting makes for bad TV.
After watching the video of this season at it's completion, MB was probably not happy with what transpired. There were more people who quit this season than any in the past combined. On top of that there were and unusually high number of lazy people who just didn't contribute to their tribe or the game. MB sent a message, via the editing, that if you play this way don't expect to come out looking to good once the show makes it to the small screen.
For example:
Jolanda, Angie, Coby, BJ and Jeff were all given good edits.
Non contributors like Willard, Janu, James and Ibe were given moderate to bad edits.
Now MB does not want to destroy these people on TV, but he is certainly not going to reward them either.
Another theme, as was pointed out by VS early on was choices and consequences. MB likes the team concept of this game from beginning, because it makes these people form bonds with one another which then creates good drama later on when they are forced to vote one another out, and then ultimately have to vote for the winner.
The choices were shown from the beginning when the tribes were formed, the seemingly unbeatable Ulong versus Koror. Ulong deciding that they didn't need any sort of organization or leadership to win challanges vs Koror who obviously developed a plan and worked hard together. Ulong voting out the strongest people early on like Jolanda, Angie or Jeff when there were clearly others that were holding back the tribe.
The last theme was that of a few people, who despite the odds perservered like Angie, Coby, BJ and even Steph. Even though they were on the losing tribe or were perceived as outsiders they still were given good edits, just not winning edits. These people learned from the game and came out better because of it.
During the finale when all the competitors are brought togehter, I'd look for Jify to hammer home these important points and make it obvious to some of these people why they lost.
Now this sort of editing wouldn't work if a someone like James or Willard won the game or were in the finals. This is why editing is important to pay attention to. The negative editing of some, the up and down editing of others or the non-editing of some. These are things that MB has done since the first survivor.
Lastly, EPMB knows that we are all going to have our favorites or someone we are going to cheer for. He also knows that not everyong is going to be satisfied with the winner. In the end he just wants us to be entertained enough that we will all come back for the next installment
DRONES

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-27-05, 08:59 AM (EST)

71. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Very good, nicely done. I agree with the most of the major points you make in your post.
There is a one point in one paragraph that is questionable, though;

"The choices were shown from the beginning when the tribes were formed, the seemingly unbeatable Ulong versus Koror. Ulong deciding that they didn't need any sort of organization or leadership to win challanges vs Koror who obviously developed a plan and worked hard together. Ulong voting out the strongest people early on like Jolanda, Angie or Jeff when there were clearly others that were holding back the tribe."
The first part I agree with, but the part about Ulong Voting out the strongest, well, Jeff quit. And, with his injury, he was a liability. Technically he was voted off, but really, he quit. And, apparently from interviews afterward the injury was serious and required surgery.
Jolanda, Strong? Physically maybe, but she really hurt the tribe with her decision to take all the items in the first IC, That put Ulong behind the eight ball from the beginning. She, with her poor decision making combined with her pushing to be a leader was a liability to the tribe.
Your point in regard to the choices involving "organization and leadership" are well taken, they were the critical reasons that Ulong malfunctioned. Bad leadership put them behind at the beginning and dogged them until they were past the point of no return. But they actually didn't vote off the strongest till the end, Ibe, James(the exception), and BJ and Steph, the two strongest onthe team.
If MB is thematic, the lessons of good leadership and organization should figure in there too.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
04-28-05, 01:08 PM (EST)

73. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Thank you all kindly for answering those questions. While I love analyzing this show, I certainly love analyzing everything else as well
It seems that there is a general consensus that one wants to feel a sense of likeability from their winner yet in the same vein, they want someone to play the game hard
This is interesting as the two may not be able to go hand and hand in a lot of cases in the world of editing.
It seems that while we want to "like" our winner, they should also be shown as really playing the game and most people would prefer an active game playing rather than a passive one (though that IS still playing the game )
We are a tough audience and it may never be easy for this to be done. Rich and Brian were lauded for their strategic and cunning game play but disliked. Ethan was liked but some criticized the lack of "hard" game play that was shown to us and so forth.
As human beings, we are comprised of a host of emotions and we view our characters accordingly. This is also why we see the jury behave as they do; regardless of intent to be objective, it is hard to do and often we see a vote cast for a winner by someone SOLELY because they didn't "like" the other person or felt betrayed or made a fool by them.
But back to the moment
My last 2 questions to you...........
At this moment, based on everything you have watched thus far and assuming ALL the "characters" are still there at this time and their editing course has continued...............
1. Who do you WANT to win
2. Who DESERVES to win
I am referring to ANY of them starting from Wanda on up, assuming their editing stays "on course" to what we saw of them. In other words Jolanda was very strong and very aggressive (potentially a little too aggressive) and would remain such. Coby, hard worker and funny but we definitely noted his snide side which appeared to be growing (many people liked that about him but I do wonder if it would have been as well received if it was directed to someone who we were meant to like?)
This should be my last quiz for the week

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hunniebunns 119 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
04-28-05, 01:19 PM (EST)

74. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

1. Who do you WANT to win
well, I like Tom and would love to see him win

2. Who DESERVES to win
Steph, Ian or Tom.
And...I don't mind your quizzes..

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-28-05, 03:16 PM (EST)

75. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

1. Who do you WANT to win
For me it's not so much who I want to win at this juncture, as who I don't want, Katie and Jenn.
2. Who DESERVES to win
Tom, Steph, Gregg, Ian, and to a much lesser extent Caryn.
DRONES

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JazzyJax 531 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
04-28-05, 04:13 PM (EST)

76. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

1. Who do you WANT to win - Ian, I'm a sucker for the underdog, since as yet (per editing) no one seems to be playing the game hard.
2. Who DESERVES to win - nobody yet, same reason. No one seems to be challenging the set course. I like the way Greg talks, but dislike the no-action side. Too late buddy!
(I originally liked Stephanie's fighter side but am lately discouraged by all the crying. Yes, everyone is naturally emotional, but she's using it as a card now, give it up, Survivor is tough!)

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-28-05, 06:41 PM (EST)

77. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I would like Stephenie to win. I don't think her emotional outburt at TC should be held against her. She was shocked that someone would give up on a chance of a lifetime.
As I stated before Tom is the most deserving although I'm forced to ask myself what is Gregg up to?. We haven't seen him with Jenn in the last few weeks. Is it just editing or have they called it quits already? If Gregg realized that staying with Jenn would bring him down and has made some sort of pact with Tom then I'd say he played the best game. I don't have much to back my supposition except that ever since Gregg helped Tom with the shark, these two have been closer than anyone else on the tribe. Gregg isn't seen walking or even talking with Jenn and Tom doesn't mention that breaking them up is a priority anymore. We haven't seen Stephenie talk to Tom about what Coby told him Gregg wanted to do. Did she realize she couldn't get him to go against Gregg?

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-28-05, 08:42 PM (EST)

78. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-28-05 AT 09:56 PM (EST)
OK, I enjoy the VS side show act - (and I do not use these emoticons lightly)
1. Who do you WANT to win (in order)
Steph, Angie, BJ, Ian, tom
2. Who DESERVES to win
(Bush just came on, subject Social Security. OK, I want to control my retirement funds. I'm on board, enough already, turn on Survivor. Yet he continues. I need to expound at length to distract my self.)
Deserve, what do we mean by deserve, the one that is kindest? smartest?, most atheletic? heroic? kindest to the mother?, has coolest car?
(Not working, I can still hear him. Mute button? and risk missing start of Survivor? 26 minutes and counting.)
OK, Steph, I guess. Has best combination of things I enjoy in a winner, has won my sympathy, and I empathize. Smart, game focused, great effort, doesn't blame others for her failures, doesn't snipe or disparage others, is upfront but can be wily, uses all her resources (even tears), just a valiant effort.
47 minutes and counting. Answering Iraq questions!! Reporters asking Republican/Democratic partisan questions. Arrrrrgh.......... Having evil thoughts.
ETA: Need Drink.

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smokedog 1885 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
04-29-05, 00:17 AM (EST)

79. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-29-05 AT 00:18 AM (EST)
1) want to win: Steph, Tom, Ian,
2) deserves to win: Tom, Steph, BJ, Ian, Gregg

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Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-29-05, 07:43 AM (EST)

81. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

1. Who do I want to win: I would have loved it if the girls could have pulled off that alliance and Steph emerged as the winner! Would have been something to see. At this point though I would like to see Ian win.
2 Who deserves to win: Bobby John, Steph, Tom, Ian, Gregg, Katie(believe it or not!...at least she's showing a little plotting now!)

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braveheart 104 desperate attention whore postings
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04-29-05, 09:42 AM (EST)

85. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I want to see an Angie or Ian type win.
I think Tom or Ian deserves to win at this point.

Braveheart

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Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings
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04-29-05, 07:29 AM (EST)

80. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

What a night for quotes! Loads of foreshadowing in last night's ep.
When Tom explained his show of strength and asked the tribe not to "penalize" him for it, he talked about how the strong contestants haven't won in the past.
Katie's quote, "I have to write his name down now, or he'll win" when trying to sway Ian to a Tom vote.
Was Gregg's quote "Don't mess with the plan. I'll get so pissed off" an indicator of his own demise? He's been shown trying to change the plan at a number of occasions, such as when he went to Coby about the potential alliance to boot Tom. When he bucks the plan and shows more loyalty to the women, he slits his own throat.
And the quote of the night was Tom's comment during TC about showing his strength early - "I'll live with those consequences." With a theme of choices and consequences, that was a telling statement. He'll live with those consequences, since they are accompanied by a big, fat winner's check.

"If there was ever a time you wanted permission to run over a clown . . . ."

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EmpressEmmie 15 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
04-29-05, 08:00 AM (EST)

82. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Although it had been disclosed (via these WONDERFUL spoilers) that Steph would not make it to the final 4, I was still sad to see her go. IMHO she played the game harder than anyone, and I wonder if that wasn't part of the reason Mark B. or Jeff prompted Janu to toss her torch.
You see a lot of foreshadowing with the previews... they seem to be shooting Tom from side angles and wide shots lately. Making him less agressiv visually maybe? Hmmmm.....

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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04-29-05, 08:13 AM (EST)

83. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

And of course the most overt Foreshadowing statement of the week, " You think I'm threatening? I'll show you how threatening I am." which combines a little 'plans revealed' presaging.

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redbeard103152 466 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
04-29-05, 08:14 AM (EST)

84. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Katie's quote, "I have to write his name down now, or he'll win" when trying to sway Ian to a Tom vote. This is the most telling quote to date Bebo. Thanks for bringing this quote front and center. This episode was the key to the season. With seven survivors left this was the time to make your move if you wanted to shake up the major alliance. Once Tom lost the IC he was finally in a position to be taken out.Many people talked about how to do it. There was alot of talk but no action taken. This was the biggest mistake made by everyone in the game up to this point. Katie was right, by not writing down Toms name and removing him from the game now with seven survivors left,the only writing that will be done is the writing of Toms name on the million dollar check.RedBeard

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MargoChanning 14 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
04-29-05, 10:17 AM (EST)

87. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Gregg keeps talking about his plan, but does anyone see how his plan gets him any further than F5 or F4? Tom can either keep Caryn or have everyone get rid of her next week and he's still got 3 to Gregg's 2. So I thought Gregg's quotes about his "plan" were very telling - it doesn't seem to be a very well thought-out plan.

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Twisted Sister 13 desperate attention whore postings
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04-29-05, 10:27 AM (EST)

88. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Another editing thought. Gregg scrubbing Ian's back, while amusing also might have foreshadowed some kind of secret alliance? I know one of the girls commented on that possibility.

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Steph_Fan 473 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
04-29-05, 10:40 AM (EST)

89. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS, thanks for all the work you always do on these threads. I'm finally feeling brave enough to jump in!
Could Tom's paranoid speech last night be a typical weakening of his character, so that he can be redeemed before his big win?
Have you ever known someone for a long time, but forgotten their name? It feels like it is too late to ask. That's how I feel about having lurked here so long, like maybe it was too late. But Steph inspired me!

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Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings
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04-29-05, 11:10 AM (EST)

90. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Interesting secret alliance comment, since the secret (well, not from us) alliance is Katie and Ian.
Gregg's discussion with Katie, Ian, and Jenn was striking to me. He obviously thinks he has a solid alliance of 4. He was the one who wanted Steph to go, and the others stuck to his "plan". Now he thinks they'll continue to follow his plan of voting out the strong, not realizing that Katie and Ian aren't as tight with him as he thinks.

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MargoChanning 14 desperate attention whore postings
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04-29-05, 11:31 AM (EST)

91. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Bebo, I agree. I think that will come back to bite Gregg, who seems to be envisioning a F4 of himself, Jenn, Katie & Ian - but Ian & Katie are seeing a F3 with Tom. Katie & Ian may be dumb enough to go up against Tom in the finals, but they're not dumb enough to think that Gregg won't bring Jenn along to the F2.
Tom may be a bit paranoid now (then again, who isn't on Survivor?) but he's still got the best hand if he plays his cards right. His speech was pretty up front, laying out that he gave his all in previous challenges to get them all to where they are now. If he continues that attitude in the F2, they really should give him the million.

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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04-29-05, 12:21 PM (EST)

92. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Margo, Steph, Twisted, nice to see you'll on the boards. And good observations.
And I agree, I think Steph fan nailed it. In order for Tom to be an F2 (you can't really be talking about being a winner since no one, not even JP or EPMB knows who that is yet, presumably), he has to get a less positive edit. And he's getting it. Not a real bad edit, but one showing his paranoid side, his meanness in stringing Caryn along, his insecurity with his plea for the others not to hold his effort, the effort they all benefited from, against him (nice ploy, by the way).
If he is to be final 2, he will probably continue to get a less than perfect edit for a few episodes then EPMB will rehabilitate him near the end.

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dreamerbeliever 3380 desperate attention whore postings
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04-29-05, 02:16 PM (EST)

94. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Another telling quote as far as the end game goes, Tom & Caryn were walking down the beach together and Tom mentioned that he was worried about going up against Ian in the final two. Should Tom win the final immunity challenge, he will not be pulling a Colby and taking Ian with him to the end. He will go for the win and take Katie or another possible easy beat Caryn.
This is just a guess of course but now that our underdog Stephanie is gone, I believe all the plotting last night against Tom was to set him up as the new underdog who HAS to win several immunity challenges in a row and he will. Just write the check now.

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Flipper 53 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-29-05, 12:54 PM (EST)

93. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Who Do I want to Win?
Who Deserves to Win?
I just want the winner to win, although I agree it would be gratifying if the people I've been manipulated into liking would win. Either you out play, out last and out win your competitors and get more votes from the jury, or you don't.
My personal quest in watching survivor is to try to detect editing manipulation and resist. But, as we all know resistance is futile. Because I'm sensitive to editing manipulation I perceive as stereotypical, I'm not jumping on the "the lazy girls are riding the coattails of the men" theory that seems fairly popular. I admire the physical and intellectual prowness of any good competitor who wins challenges for the good of their tribe and later him or herself. But more than that I admire the person who can play a psychological/social game so that if they can get themselves to the final 2, more people on the jury will vote for them. In a game where the numbers dictate that alliances will be formed and betrayal is inevitable, I think not alienating most of the potential jurors is the hardest aspect of the game.
That being said, my strongest favorites of this season, all underdogs, have left, but precisely because they left early, they didn't out play and out last long enough to show me their political game and how many jury votes they might have won. If you can't survive tribal council, you can't be the sole survivor (Although Lil once had a shot at it after being booted).
As far as those who are left I think the editing thus far has only told Tom's story (fearless leader and provider). To me his edit seems utterly winning, a strong leader, but benevolent, for example, when he told "his children" they should save water for drinking, not for showers, there was grumbling, but ultimately his guidance was accepted. He is the freaking Hugh Beaumont of Survivor, which is why everyone blew it last night and failed to vote him off. Katie has had a limited but choppy edit, mostly negative, but reminiscent of Jenna M's edit. Jenna M, redeemed herself with a string of immunity wins (according to spoiling information, not part of Katie's Survivor destiny). Pehaps Katie can redeem herself with a string of strategically brillant moves that propel her to the final 2. Perhaps all along she has played a smarter, more strategic game than we've seen, evidenced by the reference to her secret alliance with Ian. Jenn has been shown as a fair competitor, but misplacing her paranoia in the strategy to vote off Stephanie (which could be Gregg's influence. Gregg has been given a fair edit, good competitor, but strategy wise, he blew it by failing to neutralize his biggest threat. I still don't understand why the potential girl's alliance didn't try to woo Gregg (although we may just have not seen it), Gregg against the girls would be a better bet for him than Gregg against the invincible Tom and the likeable Ian. Caryn's story began to be told last night, she's adrift, the person she went to with inside info held it against her, Katie's pissed at her, she's a goner as foreshadowed with her previous confrontation scenes. Ian's real story hasn't begun yet, he started strong, he's goofy, likeable, good work ethic, fair competitor. I think much will be made of his relationship with Tom, ultimately he blew it by failing to neutralize Tom when he had the chance.
In addition to the influence of the editing manipulation, I confess I'm influenced by the abundance of spoiling information aviable this season. My mind has advanced to the Tom/Ian/Katie/Jenn final four scenario, and even to the Tom/Katie final 2 scenario - so far, keeping my healthy skepticism of editing manipulation in place, I could live with either one as the sole survivor, though I couldn't say I want either one of them to win, which ever one of them does win will deserve it.
Flipper
"Whatever!"

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
04-29-05, 02:21 PM (EST)

95. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-29-05 AT 04:20 PM (EST)
Wow, this was a great episode, wasn’t it? Full of quotes, full of editing changes, I was in heaven
You all had a big jump on me this morning and that is always fun for me and I am thrilled to see people come out and posting here because editing is something that needs to be shared on different levels as I have said many times that what one observes another may see differently I originally started this because people expressed themselves so wonderfully about what they were observing and commented this form of analysis is worthy of its own thread.
Let’s just put this in one big nutshell:
Jeff: “This happy family’s about to be broken up”
And so it began last night and so it will continue from here on in.
One interesting mental note I made was in regard to the family letter situation. Tom bid and won them but was merely shown briefly acknowledging the reward, touched by it, showed his child’s drawing (which was relevant in terms of Tom's characterization as we don't want to see someone boxed in as a one dimensional character as that is not good)
Stephenie on the other hand was given far more attention to her reward despite the fact Tom essentially “won” that round. If Stephenie DIDN’T go that night and Tom did, I would hazard a guess that Tom would have received a longer tribute to his letters and this is where editing plays a big part to the character’s and their outcomes at times
The Characters
I’m not sure about the rest of you but I do see some comments on this that coincide with mine. Tom’s editing was clear as day twisting. His vulnerability was clearly outlined throughout the entire episode by himself and by the others. Many of you have expressed their distaste by his “arrogance” (which I personally have not really seen as arrogant but there is always a fine line between confidence and arrogance) but a different Tom was seen last night which I think helped nicely to show Tom not quite as invincible as people think he believes. Couple that with his softening during the family letter situation gave a dash of humanity to him. In addition though, we sill saw some of that "swagger" with Tom with his speech about "doing for his tribe". Some interesting comments from Tom:
Tom: “I feel for you because I’m two votes behind you.” (This was Stephenie, interesting comment in where HE feels he is as far as two votes behind Stephenie-who are the two before him?)
Tom “You think Ian wants to deal with me... that I want to deal with him?" (This was to Caryn and definitely raised my brow as up until today the father/son showed no potential parting of ways. However, I’m not altogether inclined to believe this was not a conscious and deliberate speech by Tom with nothing extremely substantive behind it which I will get to under Ian)
Tom: “This is my nourishment; what I need. This is money well spent”
Jeff at IC “Tom trying to get back in this and does it” and “Tom with three, trying to move in a tie for first”. Hmmm, a little foreshadowing?
Katie: “Tom could win every immunity” and “Tom could take the whole thing” and what Bebo already mentioned: “I feel bad about Tom/ we don’t have a chance with Tom/ if I don’t write his name down, he’ll win” (we get the message Katie and potential foreshadowing. It is not secret that Tom is dangerous in immunity challenges and we may see an unprecedented run by him
Tom at TC: “My doing well was happenstance.... I hope it isn't held against me, but I'll live with those consequences” (Exactly right Bebo regarding choices/consequences)
There was so much about Tom and the irony is that this was the pivotal moment to get rid of the biggest threat on the island. Not Stephenie, Tom! But we still hear from Gregg over and over about Stephenie
Gregg “Steph may influence team dynamics, and Koror may start stabbing each other in the back” (Obvious foreshadowing)
Gregg “There is too much of the Stephenie show, the sooner we get rid of her, easier to go back to plan, you don't mess with plan, if they do, I will get so pissed off”
(I don’t know about you but I just shook my head back and forth when Gregg was speaking. Gregg has had complete tunnel vision in his determination that Stephenie is their biggest threat when in reality, Tom is. His focus on this plan is getting in the way..)
Tom’s position is interesting in that he is obviously the biggest threat to a lot of players out there yet there was also an underlying respect and admiration of him. While they are all buzzing about him that he needs to go and at points annoyed, I do think essentially they like him and admire him. He is NOT the villain or the enemy and there is conflict revolving around him as to his longevity. This is interesting in that in a lot of cases when there is conflict about someone, people then start fighting amongst themselves.

Caryn
We assumed Caryn would be broadening and this was proven last night. I had mentioned earlier that Caryn’s edit was showing to be a character that is being used as a tool to further more dominant edits and she was a chess piece being moved all over the place.
Tom handled her quite capably and I find it amusing that Katie would be the one to discuss strategy with Caryn considering their acrimonious past. Tom reminded me of Brian somewhat in his discussion with Caryn; he was very smooth. Caryn, who doesn’t know where she stands at all in this game is not only being welcomed into the fold by the perceived leader but is also being confided in by the leader that he feels unsafe. This was a perfect mix to express to Caryn to not only make HER feel safer but to feel she may even stand a chance against someone who seems UNTOUCHABLE That,is good game play my friends .
Caryn unfortunately, while intelligent, made classic Survivor mistakes. She had two options to choose from and caused a problem for herself. We have seen this mistake over and over in this game and it always works out the same way. These players find power put in their lap but they can’t make use for it and they struggle with that power. Ultimately they rid themselves of this power only to find themselves being blamed for it. These players don’t sneak in the back door nor do they come charging through the front; they are saddled somewhere in the middle with all the power in the world and no outcome in using it.
Obviously, Caryn made her bed and lay with Tom; the person everyone is afraid of who will win. She knows that Katie is now her enemy so the only card she has left is to let Tom protect her which means she will never see the million dollars. We know she is talking to both Ian and Tom next week and the villain of Katie is fleshing out even more
Katie
Katie mixing and mingling and somehow is left untouched with those choices. I have to hand that to her. She has had her moments with contestants and their intolerance of her. She is squaring herself firmly everywhere to make moves, she essentially got caught with her hand in the cookie jar but nonetheless she is virtually unscathed For Katie’s story, this is a defining moment. Prior to this, we mainly saw her being the antagonist in petty storylines; this episode showed her character with more “meat” (forgive the pun) and yet, she came out with a clean bill of health. What does this signify in terms of usual character editing? She is the dream person to go the end with We have compared her quite often to Clay in that regard and she is following that same path. Her tribe begins to dislike her, she is mixing things up, there will PROBABLY be discussion about getting rid of her but it won’t happen because she is too valuable.
I found the Immunity Challenge to symbolically represent Katie’s position.........
Jeff at IC “Katie moving into game suddenly” (and so she does and interestingly enough she gets on board by OTHERS putting her there. Both Tom and Caryn threw her a toss and then Katie herself gets one for herself)
Katie’s edit changed subtly but significantly; she went from being Mark Burnett’s pet peeve to a player (albiet a still unlikeable one)
Katie has also laid seeds in the men vs. female situation. At some point, we would then see some situation involving this........
Katie(to Caryn) “What would you rather do, stay with men or let them kick our a.s.s.e.s”
Jenn
Again, we have nothing to write home about Jenn because she is simply the partner to the person who is making all the moves. I mentioned in another post in our first thread that in cases where we see a partnership of the male/female variety, the female ultimately does better than the male because the male partner is the one who is actively strategizing or appears more of a threat and providing the buffer for the female with examples again of Rob/Amber, Tina/Colby, Sandra/Rupert and so forth. As we discussed prior seasons, there are those with a game but no story, a story but no game and those with neither. Jenn has neither She will be there until she isn’t and we probably will see a small peak in her arc prior to her demise.
Gregg
Oh, Gregg tries hard and Mark Burnett is certainly letting the audience know that Gregg wants to be the upheaval and the power player but Gregg keeps falling short and keeps missing the boat He had two opportunities to put his “plan” in action and succeed and did neither. He keeps talking ”the plan, the plan, the plan” Tell us, Gregg. What exactly is your plan? Now that your obsession with Stephenie is gone, it appears too late for your plan because for all his planning to overthrow, he also didn’t plan on how he can protect himself This is key for survival.
Tom “The only protection I have is to keep the five..... bring Caryn in as a confidante”
Gregg made it clear to us that Ian and Tom were to be overthrown although the messages are mixed as to how Ian is involved. As of now, he can only be truly sure of Jenn and Katie about Tom. The numbers have dwindled and with Tom having the Irish determination to win immunity, the odds are even worse.
Gregg is now four/five in a five person alliance
Gregg is now a male threat
Gregg has and continues to be number three men with I/T/G (and this is heavily shown in scenes where there are the three of them)
Gregg misses immunity to Tom and now to Ian
Interesting note that Gregg was really not a major of any of the shenanigans going on at camp. We really saw mostly HISconfessionals about what he wants with a small conversation (small compared to everything else going on) regarding I/K/J. What is happening around him?
Tom broaches Ian that the girls are plotting to get rid of the guys Katie and Ian are discussing the issue of Tom The girls discuss the options regarding the men. Caryn is now in the mix and so forth and interestingly........
Tom:”Mother nature threw us a curve ball with a rainy day. Funny if the sun breaks out and seven people start spreading out in groups..........” Sure enough, the rainbow makes its presence and everyone scurries
Ian
Again, Ian has a very interesting edit. While we see that “goofy” guy here and there (wiggling at a very very crucial immunity challenge, the whole “smelly Ian” story, etc.) we also know that he is a key member in the dynamics at Koror. We learned:
Ian (to Katie) “I’m still 100% true to you”
Beware of those spouting undying loyalty as something usually ends up preventing the intended outcome. Back in one of my earlier and still lengthy posts, I had mentioned Jeff’s comments about the characters and made note that Jeff indicated:
Jeff about Ian pre-game “If he lasts long enough he'll probably make mistakes because of judgment”
Again, I go back to this and wonder if Ian (who by far and large does seem to be sitting very nicely right now) makes a mistake in judgment which costs him the game.
A big note on Ian that I have seen frequently is we never, really truly see Ian take a firm stance. Last night again reflected this.
Ian “Caryn needs to go home, Stephenie needs to go home, and my dilemma is do I vote Tom out?” and “With Tom, I’m up in the air” and:
Katie (talking to Ian) “Every time I bring up Tom, you are (at this moment she makes a facial/head gesture to signify his back/forth feelings)
Ian is very central to everything going on around him but appears to struggle in having to make a hard decision. He acknowledged Stephenie having to go and did so reluctantly, he has deferred in talks with Tom to allow Tom decide situations, he essentially left very confused in his talk with Katie. Ian is marginally safe but at some point, he needs to rely on his own judgement and seems to indicate his unsureness about same
We also have to remember the “father/son” relationship that has been shown to us essentially from the beginning. I do think this may be relevant and most relationships do involve choices and consequences
In essence, however, Ian still promotes Koror as essentially a group that is solid and I think Ian’s fierce desire is that it could remain that way.
The game for Ian is commencing in earnest now and Ian will now perhaps have to end his “great adventure” and embark on a more “unsettling journey”
Points of Interest
The lone crab (Stephenie) makes her appearance at the very beginning of the episode
When Ian wins immunity, there is a specific shot thereafter that appears to make the viewers think Tom is looking at Ian in an extremely concerned way but more interesting is that while we usually see a victorious look and/or smile from the person who wins, we see Ian’s face which is meant to by the viewers to appear to be looking at Tom (since both of their shots are immediately following one another) and Ian’s face is not smiling or happy.
We see for next week, a spider in its web (we who love editing always look forward to spiders)
Katie is the center of a lot of controversey but in instances where someone is valuable either as a shield (Rupert to Sandra) or a fall "guy" (Clay was to Brian) that controversial person is shoved to the side.
Tom appears ironically to be the vulnerable person out there right now, despite Caryn's running to Tom and despite Katie's plans that were revealed. At this point, Tom does need all the immunities he can get and while we may be in for a boring run with that, he has more than enough to potentially win them all; let's not forget what BJ said about him "He is a man among men"

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MargoChanning 14 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
04-29-05, 05:30 PM (EST)

96. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

As always, I'm humbled by your insights, VS. You never cease to amaze.
I was shaking my head right along with you at Gregg last night. Gregg's edit is striking me as ironic . . . all his talk of his "plan" and yet no execution of it. All the missed chances. How he missed the opportunity to set up a final four of himself, Jenn, Steph and Katie was jaw-dropping to watch. Instead he seems to be setting up himself in the final four with Ian, Tom and Jenn (or Katie) - much worse odds for him in terms of winning immunity. So his comments that MB shows are really coming across ironic to me - he sees himself as a gamer while failing at the game splendidly.
Jenn made several comments earlier about Steph and her strength - was she the driving force behind Gregg pushing for Steph to be voted out? Her edit seems to be that of a follower/pawn/Gregg's lackey, but is it the other way around? Why was Steph such a threat, considering she never won a single immunity the entire time and went to every single TC as long as she lasted in the game? Personally a threat to Jenn, who wants Gregg all to herself, wrapped around her own little finger?
Tom's edit last night really seemed to set him up for a win. His unbeatable edit turned into a look how vulnerable and paranoid Tom is edit. Time enough for redemption if he continues winning immunities without becoming arrogant about it. That's the edit I'm most curious about - if he goes on a run of immunity wins, how does he react?
I noticed the spider, too - is Caryn caught between two webs?

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-29-05, 07:28 PM (EST)

97. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I'm inclined to think that the spider symbology points to the increased plotting (weaving of webs) in the tribe in general, and not to a specific plotter (spider). Because really, there are several spiders, Tom, Gregg, Katie, maybe Ian, and several flys, Jenn, Caryn, and maybe Ian. And a spider can get caught in another spiders' trap.
The webs are a'spinning, the game is afoot.
BTW, did the shots of birds feeding on the schooling bait fish coincide with food rewards in the last few episodes? I don't remember that seeing that in the last episode so I guess it isn't an harbinger of a food reward, but it would be kinda of a neat little touch on EPMB's part if it did.

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twinsmomm 52 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-29-05, 11:34 PM (EST)

98. "RE: Kingfish...question"

Kingfish, I'm new to the board, usually just a lurker but I noticed your signature line at the bottom...just had to ask, Stephen King fan? Your little fish head looks a lot like the "master of the macabre" Just wondering...
By the way...hoping Ian wins the mil.

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
04-30-05, 08:23 AM (EST)

99. "RE: Kingfish...question"

LAST EDITED ON 04-30-05 AT 08:27 AM (EST)
Nice to see you here Twinsmom. Don't be a stranger.
The Sig pic was designed and donated by a friend on these boards to fit my alias. I suggested that Kingfish could be represented by putting the head of S. King on a fish, and she responded with what you see. For which I am very greatful and appreciative. And as to the wondering, No. Not him. No relation, don't know him.
However, if you look out your window on a dark night, and you see the trees moving against a moonlit sky, you may be reminded of the story the TREE BOY, IAN, and the time he and his kin came in from the woods to take revenge on the firewood cutters in the Mass. town of Upper Salem..........
Just messing around. I'm betting (figuratively) on Ian too, I think it's possible that we are being led down the garden path with the heavy emphasis at this point in the game on Tom.

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twinsmomm 52 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-30-05, 01:12 PM (EST)

100. "RE: Kingfish...question"

Glad to hear you're betting on Ian as well. I didn't think you actually were the "King" (just my fave author) but I thought to myself that it surely looked like him and kudos to your friend who put it together. I love it. I think it's great!!!
As for the trees moving against a moonlit sky, no worries, I've read most of his books and if I can read them at night, I can survive trees moving!!!
I agree that we are being led down a different road to make the assumption that Tom wins it all. Glad they ousted Steph though, even though she was an excellent player. Unfortunately in this game if you're too good, you get axed, have to come in under the radar or you're out (that being said from the comfort of my chair at my computer!!!).
Have a great day.

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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04-30-05, 06:02 PM (EST)

101. "RE: Kingfish...question"

Kudos go to the very excellent KObrien Fan.

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Peachezz 60 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square"
04-30-05, 06:38 PM (EST)

102. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 04-30-05 AT 06:40 PM (EST)
Beware of those spouting undying loyalty as something usually ends up preventing the intended outcome. Back in one of my earlier and still lengthy posts, I had mentioned Jeff’s comments about the characters and made note that Jeff indicated:
Jeff about Ian pre-game “If he lasts long enough he'll probably make mistakes because of judgment”
Always inspiring to read your synopsis.
This quote you have from Jeff took my eye. I had read Jeff's comments about the contestants but do not remember this quote for some reason.
When viewing Ep 12 vidcaps, I have to say that the more prominent 'animal' vidcap in my mind is not the spider, but the snake wedged between vidcaps of Ian. I wish Ian were going to make it to F2, but I fear he is making a mistake of judgement and it is probably about Katie.

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
05-01-05, 06:32 PM (EST)

103. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I am with you VS, what the heck is Greg’s plan. He earlier commented, “Janu is key”, we were also shown his (premature) alliance with Coby. Without Janu, without Coby, Greg has no plan. While in the real Survivor World he probably does have something up his sleeve, from an editing point of view, his plan IMHO has not been developed.
I also found Caryn’s emergence interesting. The failure of the women’s alliance could have easily been laid at Jenn’s or Katie’s feet. Jenn wasn’t likely to break from Greg and Katie wasn’t likely to jump from her alliance and both of these could have easily been shown, but they were not. Instead the failure was attributed to Caryn and her (new) relationship with Tom. While, the editing showed Caryn’s weakness, it also showed Tom as a very adept strategist. Tom has always been edited as a threat, but this episode took it up an additional rung.
In VS prior thread we earlier discussed how you would edit a “hero” winner. If Tom were to win and in order for MB to maintain drama, MB would have to shift Tom’s edit from a strong leader towards an underdog. How could anyone this strong possibly win? We definitely saw this in the last episode. While we could definitely see him go on an immunity run, we could also see him targeted each week, only to scramble and collect an unpredicted alliance he needs to avoid the boot (as he was edited to do this week).
Additionally, VS has an excellent point this week.
“Again, I go back to this and wonder if Ian (who by far and large does seem to be sitting very nicely right now) makes a mistake in judgment, which costs him the game.”
VS has made this point before, does Ian win an immunity challenge and make the mistake of not voting off Tom?
While Katie is being edited as a less likeable player than Ian, I thought Katie came across as a better “player” this week than Ian. While Ian is still likeable, he just doesn’t appear to be able to make a decision. Earlier Ian has deferred to Tom, this week he appeared to defer to Katie. Should Katie outlast Ian, I am unsure how Tom handles this acrimoniously, if at all.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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05-02-05, 03:28 AM (EST)

104. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

A couple of things that really caught my attention this episode were Gregg's plan and Tom's plea.
First, Gregg's plan:
We know that a big part of Gregg's plan has been to get rid of Steph. Steph did not figure into his end game, whatever that is, and he wanted to make sure that only someone from Koror would win the game.
Now that Steph is gone, Gregg is going to have to step up and put the rest of his plan into action.
We've seen this before were a Survivor has a specific plan with no contigency. This person is usually suprised when they are booted as they never saw it coming.
Second, Tom's plea:
Tom must have really felt that he was a target this episode, because he spent a lot of time telling working over the rest of the players as to why he should stay. He started with Caryn on the beach and then again at TC.
From an editing stand point I found it ironic when Tom said:
”Mother nature threw us a curve ball with a rainy day. Funny if the sun breaks out and seven people start spreading out in groups..........”
Tom himself, of course, was one of those people, although it was made to look like it was the rest of his tribe that was plotting.
This was the first time we have seen Tom as vulnerable. We also saw him being targeted by those within his own alliance. This shift put Tom in the underdog position, previously occupied by Steph.
I think we all remember Tom telling Steph that she was had friends on this tribe. He all but promised her a spot in the F5. This fact was glossed over by the editing. We saw no negative comments from Steph about Tom not following through with this promise. Steph was so clueless about her positioni with Tom that she voted for Caryn at TC.
Carynwas shown as a player adrift. She said that she has no alliances with anyone left in the game. She believes, like Steph, that Tom is going to take care of her. Tom, of course is only going take care of her as long as it gets him further in the game. This is more evidence of Tom's willingness to adapt in the game.
Jenn. I have nothing to add to what VS has already posted.
Katie was really fleshed out in this episode. We saw that she has a "secret" alliance with Ian. We also saw her working several different angles, first with the very predictable women's alliance and then with Ian in regards to their alliance.
She is one of those players that is resented because she is still in the game and undeserving.
Ian stepped up as well this episode. We saw him say, in regards to Tom felling vulnerable (paraphrasing) Tom was the one that said when this became an individual game that it is everyone for themselves. We are going to see his father/so relationship put to the test. Ian's tough choice is not going to come when he has to vote for Gregg, Jenn or Caryn. His choice is going to be if he can vote for either Tom or Katie when the time comes. Can he make a critical decision that will ensure him a spot in the F2, or will his indecision be his downfall.
DRONES

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Loree 8616 desperate attention whore postings
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05-02-05, 08:49 AM (EST)

105. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Listening to Ian in the last episode it seems he is really having a hard time separating his friendship with Tom from the game play. Katie said she has continued to ask Ian when they are going to get rid of Tom who is the threat to them. But Ian keeps putting it off. He is having a hard time turning on his friend/father figure. In becoming Ian's father figure, Tom has made it very difficult for Ian to turn on him. Ian tells Katie he has a deal with her to go to the end. But I feel he wants to be with Tom more than Katie. So it is mixed up for him what to do. He seems to be waiting and waiting and may wait too long.

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ADKer 143 desperate attention whore postings
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05-02-05, 01:23 PM (EST)

106. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

I believe that the complaints from Tom about feeling vulnerable were misdirection. It is apparent that Tom is the most dominant player ever, even more dominant than Brian Heidek and Rob M in all stars. As with Brian, Tom's team is somewhat indebted to him for carrying all but one into the merge, not to mention feeding them. The impressive thing about Tom is that he has been straightforward about being a strategic player and, as in the comments he made about Steph in the council in which Janu quit, he can sincerely express his personal regard for another player while voting to boot them. Tom is the rare player who can boot someone very close to him without causing offense or loosing their vote at the final tribal council. I am not sure that he has to win all of the immunities to reach the finals. Once Gregg and Jenn are gone, Ian and Caryn might let their regard for Tom prevent them from voting him out if the opportunity presents itself.
While I have no reason to like Katie, I don't hate her for the way she has played the game. She could have made more effort to help in puttering around camp, but there may not have been much more that she could do. You have to play with the gifts you have. Katie's gifts are limited but she knows that and uses what she has: shrewdness and a self-interested desire to advance in the game.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-05, 11:56 AM (EST)

107. "Episode 12"

LAST EDITED ON 05-06-05 AT 02:04 PM (EST)
As some of you, one of my favorite parts of this show, the PECKING ORDER challenges. As Jeff indicated, these types of challenge really showcase “who is who” in terms of vulnerability and strength in alliances. Mind you, this season had this challenge with a smaller amount of people for obvious reasons so the mechanics of this challenge did veer a little off the typical way we normally see since prior seasons had members of the two formers tribes involved
I would also say we really now have a sense of the Koror Family and much like real families we sometimes see brothers/sisters against fathers/mothers, brother against brother, sister against sister and so forth There were some changing family dynamics here that have expanded the “happy little family” and do I dare believe that for the first time, we actually may have actually seen some players throw punches to confuse others though I may just be giving them more credit than they deserve

Question Number One
Tom hits Gregg
Jenn hits Caryn
Ian hits Caryn
Caryn hits Katie
Gregg hits Tom
Katie hits Caryn
Caryn is out No surprise there. Caryn by all intents and purposes IS slated as next to go. Expanding a little....
Tom on the other hand diverts from this plan in light of what we know. Gregg of course is a bit surprised and naturally in that alpha male manner Gregg retaliates and of course has his own agenda. But obviously noted is Caryn’s vulnerability which is evidenced by Ian, Jenn and Katie who are still following the typical pecking order route which is no surprise since prior to this only Tom and Caryn spoke
Question Number Two
Tom hits Ian (as the only person correct and one of two who have no hits yet)
Tom of course peppers this with “Sorry my friend” (interesting in terms of potential foreshadowing later on?) but Tom made one of the smartest moves in pecking challenges I have ever seen. Could this FINALLY be the start of future players not showing their hand by taking out someone who is actually IN their alliance?
Question Number Three
Tom hits Jenn
Jenn hits Tom
Ian hits Tom (at this point Tom is out)
Gregg hits Ian
Katie hits Ian (much to the surprise of Ian)
This particular round was probably the most enlightening. Tom hits Jenn who does not have any hits yet and naturally Jenn hits Tom. Tom is spreading the wealth around now True colors are now beginning to show. With only one hit left, Ian takes advantage and takes Tom out of the competition. Again, if I am to give them credit then Ian and Tom made extremely smart moves by “pecking each other” Gregg, however, takes charge to get Ian revealing his TRUE pecking order out and to the surprise of Ian, Katie removes Ian from the competition. This told us two things, Katie established her “jumping ship” and Ian established the same.
Question Number Four
Gregg hits Katie
Katie hits Gregg
And Katie starts to see writing on the wall despite her contention to switch to Jenn/Gregg. Gregg chose his girl over his “sister” which is often the case in real life families despite her blatant move in front of her other brother, Ian. Katie is literally caught between the “family feud”. Does she side with the two most threatening people or situate herself with two people who have a “bond” that sometimes overrides any sense of family.
Question Number Five
Jenn hits Katie (Katie is out)
Gregg hits Jenn (simply because he has to)
Question Number Six
Gregg is correct and wins the challenge
As stated before, this “pecking challenge” was slightly different because it did not involved two former tribes, thus, there was absolutely no choice but to “peck” in their own alliance. What we did see is that Ian saw the writing on the wall as far as Katie and Katie saw the writing on the way as far as G/J. Caryn was obviously the target by everyone BUT Tom since Tom/Caryn commenced their own understanding. Gregg naturally would counterattack on that despite the fact that Caryn was last in the hierarchy. Tom naturally was the next vulnerable in accordance with Gregg’s plan and it wasn’t until Katie hit Ian that eyes started opening. Thereafter new developments took place
And how appropriate for these words:
Tom to Gregg: ”Oh, no we’ll get you back
The Consequences
Ian about Katie “Katie.... ....if she is willing to sell me out... there is no way she will hold onto me for a million dollars”
Tom “Caryn had told me about Katie but I wasn’t ready to believe that until Ian told me....”
And thus, more choices lead to more consequences.....
Interesting note is how Ian spoke in that Katie won’t HOLD ONTO HIM for a million dollars; quite a lot of power that Ian has given Katie. Previously we mentioned how Ian perhaps falls a little short in making the hard decisions. It appears that while Ian is most certainly playing this game, Jeff’s commentary pre show could be right on the money. Ian is obviously very close to Katie with references to her as “his girl” and advising her brother in law “he is looking out for her. While Tom’s “achilles heel" may be shooting targets, Ian’s may very well be Katie.
Naturally we then begin to see strategy discussion between the two sects of G/K/J and I/T/C. Caryn of course has no power in any of this and as we already discussed, she is merely a tool in this game:
Caryn “The sequence of events fell into place for me........ I will just keep close to Tom and Ian; that is my only hope” Caryn obviously has no choice but to hope. Hope can manifest into the sitting duck syndrome however
While some of you may not have done this but while watching the development in the conversation regarding the upcoming tie vote; I was pleasantly surprised at the daring of Tom and Ian though at the time there didn’t appear to much of a choice....
Tom: ”Desperate times call for desperate measures”
Ian “It’s important no one sees this coming...” and of course "everything must be kept under wraps"
(Unless of course you choose to let someone see this coming which was actually extremely astute on Ian's part.
We learned a lot more about Katie this episode in terms of her strategy. Obviously we had an idea but it was firmed up for us. Katie, however, can’t have it both ways. You either PLAY for the million or LATCH onto those who are playing hard and hope somehow it benefits you; this is always risky
Katie “My strategy is to stick with those who make the decisions until they have no power........” and “The only person who will do the sneaky stuff is me.......”
Mark Burnett drove home as straight as a nail that Katie is best suited for the final two foil
Jenn naturally has continued to show us nothing except naturally the unhappy face now that her protection is gone. If Jenn is to have anything left, she needs now to step up any game she has. The fact of the matter is, she doesn’t have one and there is no sense pretending she does. We will see more of Jenn only because she is now one of five left and her buffer is now gone.
Do You Hear What I Hear?
Ian “I told Katie I wouldn’t write her name down and that means a lot to me”
Tom “I”m vulnerable but it is better to play hard then sit here and wait to be eliminated”
Ian “In order for the plan to happen, we need to work hard today. I didn’t come to play for 6th, 5th, 4th, etc......”
Tom “This might have been the last little love fest at camp........”
Katie “Ian wants me because he will win, Tom wants the same thing but I am here to win a million like everyone else”
Tom “That was just icing on the cake, we aren’t here for the icing, we are here for the cake”
What is missing from the above?
We should be hearing the same type of commentaries from Caryn and Jenn about what they want at the end; in other words, start solidifying to the audience they want to win, they want a million and so forth. This has not happened from either of them. Jenn speaks of who needs to go and Caryn speaks of holding on to a hope and a prayer. THIS is not end game material from these two and at this juncture, we should have heard something. The other three have told us they are here to play for a million dollars, period. That is ALWAYS key in helping to wade through the editing muck. Obviously there are times when EVERYONE is saying it but rest assured, potential end players WILL say something to solidify to the audience they are playing this game for that million dollars.
And a good old dose of classic foreshadowing:
Tom: “We are all friends and all looking to slit each other’s throats at night”
And that is Survivor in a nutshell

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Alchemist 110 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
05-06-05, 03:54 PM (EST)

108. "RE: Episode 12"

Ian is obviously very close to Katie with references to her as “his girl” and advising her brother in law “he is looking out for her.
When I read this I wondered if the "his girl" reference was more literal then just an alliance. Is Katie more then an alliance to Ian illistrated by his gallant "I'm looking out for her" statement.
Would he make a statement like that to her BIL if saw her only as an F2 person?
Are they a couple with the smarts not to show their feelings when Gregg and Jenn obviously made themselves targets by being a couple, despite their protestations? Or is Ian smitten with her and she not with him...
“Ian wants me because he will win, Tom wants the same thing but I am here to win a million like everyone else”
Aw, I hope she doesn't break the poor boys heart.
Alchemist

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JohnMc 2679 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-05, 04:25 PM (EST)

109. "RE: Episode 12"

Nice analysis, as always, VS.
So in a nutshell, I am taking what you say as meaning that the F3 will be Tom, Ian, and Katie since those are the ones who say they are playing for the million. Jenn and Caryn are just "surviving."
This looks like an interesting power shift, if you look at the alliances.
Tom/Ian/Katie - the old F3
Tom/Ian - father/son
Tom/Caryn - the old fart alliance
Katie/Jenn - the girlfriend alliance
Ian/Katie - the "I want the girl cuz she's fat and I'm a geek" alliance
Caryn/Jenn/Katie - the Steph-formed girls club
We have a couple of new lynchpins now. Katie can play Tom and Ian, especially because Ian is in her manipulative back pocket. And Katie can also go back to the girls club.
Caryn is also a lynchpin. With her tie to Tom, she has Tom and Ian on her side. Plus she can fall back on the girls club as well.
Since the lynchpins are female, that puts a lot of power into the girls club. If Caryn and Katie realize their position, they can push a lot of buttons and make all the decisions they want.
And if they are smart, they need to get rid of Tom while he doesn't have immunity.
But they won't. Tom will win. (That last statement was my only speculative element in this whole post.)

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-05, 05:39 PM (EST)

110. "RE: Episode 12"

VS- I have been an outsider lurking in on this thread for most of the season and without exception once again,excellent analysis!
Now it is time for my two cents.
I agree wholeheartedly with your spot on read of both Caryn and Jenn. Neither has their own plan and both have been pawns to be manuevered as the others have seen fit.
So lets move to the meat and potatoes: Tom/Ian/Katie.
As you said, we learned an awfully lot about all 3 of them this episode as the fireworks started to erupt. Katie almost word for word copied the Nash theory when she made this statement:
“My strategy is to stick with those who make the decisions until they have no power........” and “The only person who will do the sneaky stuff is me.......”
She is playing the role of Vecepia who in the Marquesas bounced from leader in power to leader in power until she made her way to the top. Katie is playing the classic role of follower, but it was a conscience decision on her part and the strategy that she formulated once she realized what the make up of her tribe was. Since day one at Koror there have been 2 leaders, Ian was proclaimed the leader early on as the person who started the formulation of the tribe and as one of the major food providers, and Tom who took over at camp and then also became a worthy food provider as well. Katie even saw Gregg as a potential alpha leader and indeed she did jump ship to follow his lead if only momentarily, but now that Gregg is out of power, Katie is back to following the next leader in power.
In the Nash theory of equilibrium, when a tribe is made up of multiple leaders, then it is the followers who have the best chance of surviving as they follow the leader in power at the time. She is perfect for that role, she does it well, and she obviously has done her homework.
So in her mind, even though Gregg is gone, she still has to feel that she has a pretty good shot at keeping her winning strategy. The question is, which leader does she tie her cart to next, Ian or Tom? She has that final 3 alliance with them both, but did she show her hand too soon? Vecepia never got caught, she was too sly to let that happen, right down to the end when she made the deal with the devil and brought Neleh to the F2 with her. The reason Vee won was because there wasn't an alpha leader in the opponents chair and the jury had to decide between two followers, the lesser of two evils.
Katie's only chance to win Survivor Palau is if she goes up against Caryn or Jenn in the finals, then and only then would she be able to win. But Caryn and Jenn are not playing the same game, they are followers who are pawns, and even Katie can't get them to organize together and take out whichever of the guys doesn't win immunity. If she could, then she would be like Sandra in PI. When it was down to the final 5, Sandra did get the ladies to oust Burton, once he was gone, Johnny Fairplay's only hope was to win immunity- he couldn't do it and Sandra went up against a follower in the final 2 and beat Lill handily. Without taking one of the guys out at F5 with the help of the 2 other women, Katie will be signing her own death certificate. As you stated earlier, she is the perfect F2 foil for one of the guys, and as such, that is why they will kepp her and get rid of Caryn and Jenn next.
All that being said, the same holds true for Tom and Ian. They would have a tough time going up against each other in the finals. I think they both realize this and I think that it will come down to that final 3 immunity challenge. Whichever of the 2 men wins that, will decide which of the other goes to the jury and which one gets the million.
Tom has not had the protection of the II the last couple of tribal councils. I equate Ian and Tom and their immunity status to that of the tortoise and the hare. Ian excels at the challenges that require speed "That Ian, he is a fast little booger" as prophecied by James in the first episode. But Tom has shown strength in his ability to endure. He has outlasted Ian in both endurance type challenges, especially when there was food temptation, Ian has shown a weakness. Ian is also more prone to making decisions based on emotion, it was his emotion of being snubbed by Katie that woke him up to her snakelike quality of flopping from the alliance, but will he be able to keep his emotions under control for the rest of the game?
Tom isn't playing for the icing on the cake, he is playing for the cake. The final 3 challenge is almost always a battle of will and endurance, and the venerable fireman will outlast Ian once again in fullfillment of the foreshadowing. Tom will then choose Katie over Ian because he does realize that there is a million dollars at stake. Ian may be fast out of the gate and picking up the immunity now, but when it is all on the line, Tom's patience will have paid off.
Each of the final 3 will have played a good game. Each of their strategies are sound and capable of winning. However, Tom is in the best position of all because he, unlike Ian, is not willing to let emotion control his choices.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
05-06-05, 06:53 PM (EST)

111. "RE: Episode 12"

Wow! what a fun read this thread is!. Not only do we have the editing analysis of VS but now an analysis based on the eqilibrium theory!
I would only like to say that I've seen Koror as a tribe with only one leader. Ian has defered so many times to Tom that he cannot be considered a leader despite his early heroics. He is a very good lieutenant but Tom is in charge. With the possible exception of Lex, he's been the most open and strongest leader Survivor has seen. Furthermore, the last few episode has shown he is a master at strategizing. His appeal to the others to not hold is strength against him, taking Caryn as a confidante and making Ian agree to hold strong in voting Gregg despite the threat of the rock were all extremely clever moves.

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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05-06-05, 07:33 PM (EST)

112. "RE: Episode 12"

Glad you liked it Michel. I do disagree with you about Ian, he may not be as bold and out there as a leader as Tom is, but he has always had that aura of leader about him and Tom values his cohort as someone to bounce ideas off of. Ian proved last night once again with his immunity win and strategy talk that he is one of the primary leaders to be reckoned with.

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Whole Lotta Rosie 104 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
05-07-05, 02:50 PM (EST)

113. "RE: Episode 12"

KOB it is good to have you back on VS’s thread. Please don’t lurk, your past insights have been excellent. Your point regarding Katie was right on the mark, however, while the Nash Equilibrium is obviously important to Survivor, I am still unsure how MB integrates the theory into the editing.
Theory 1: He doesn’t, it is just the most effective way to play the game. In order to do this you have to bypass the editing and try to interpret what is actually happening in the game, versus what we are being shown.
Koror: Based on preview clips and the first few episodes I felt that Tom, Ian, and Greg would fight for the leadership of the tribe. Based on these dynamics, this was a classic M-Tribe and you would expect that a follower would emerge and all three leaders would be in serious danger. This has played out to my chagrin.
Ulong: In contrast Steph and Jolanda appeared to be the most likely leaders of Ulong. When Ulong voted out Jo the first episode, I thought Steph had control of L-Tribe. This is, obviously, a very debatable point, considering the editing and TC voting patterns. Ulong was obviously edited as an N-Tribe, but ultimately every person voted off received a vote from Steph. While she may have not been the strongest leader, she was the “most’ in control.
So what does this all mean, probably nothing? One would expect a follower out of Koror, and Steph out of Ulong. Of course the huge losing streak by Ulong pretty much tweaked everything.
Theory 2: MB uses Nash Equilibrium as a theme.
This year Ulong was obviously shown as a N-Tribe. MB shouting at us, N-Tribes fail!!!, you need leadership. JP commented, over and over, “you need a plan”, “you need a leader”. As a result Ulong self-destructed. In contrast, with a few exceptions, Koror was shown to be a well-balanced tribe as an L-tribe with Tom in control. JP’s comments that “Koror was/is one big happy family” are more of a comment to a tribe in an L-equilibrium than an M-equilibrium. Based on this theme, Tom, as edited leader of Koror, is in the best position.
Theory 3: MB uses Nash Equilibrium to indicate strong game play. (KOB theory).
KOB, this one is purely you. MB uses NE to display strong gamesmanship among players to advance their characters. Vecepia and Chris are the most likely examples, but I am sure there are others. I completely agree that this year Katie is getting this edit. The question is whether this is worthy a winner or a worthy final two partner. Your assessment is accurate.
Based on the first two theories, if Koror is an M-Tribe Katie should win, if Koror is an L-Tribe Tom should win. IMO Koror is more likely a M-Tribe, but Koror as been edited more as a L-Tribe. Unfortunately, the third theory ties into both.

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
05-07-05, 05:02 PM (EST)

114. "RE: Episode 12"

I think thet Koror was an M tribe, and that is why Katie chose her strategy to be a follower, as she has said. BUT, for Nash Equilibrium to really take effect and give the advantage to the follower in this scenario, it is all based on the premise of "If everyone plays their best game". In other words if everyone plays their best game then the follower has the advantage because the Leaders pick each other off.
But Nash won't totally apply here to the winner of Survivor Palau because as I stated, Katie made a huge error and tipped her hand too soon by jumping ship from Tom's leadership to Gregg's and he is now gone. In doing so, she has alerted the others (Ian and Tom) to the game that she is playing. This will be her downfall.

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becca 17 desperate attention whore postings
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05-08-05, 01:34 AM (EST)

115. "RE: Episode 12"

LAST EDITED ON 05-08-05 AT 01:49 AM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 05-08-05 AT 01:44 AM (EST)
Going for the tie vote was not Tom's idea it was Ian. He would have happily gone along with the final 5, until Ian came to him with the ammunition. Ian's strategic smarts saved Tom.
Tom's come accross as the strong man, and while he's a decent player, We really haven't seen Tom the strategic mind. I'm sticking with my plan thats about it, but he really hasn't needed it. The purple tie vote plan was all Ian..
I think it was Ian's decision to cut out Stephanie because a couple episodes Tom was all steph's still in our game plan. And then we have Gregg/Tom/Ian discussion where Ian says Steph needs to go... He's absolutely right Stephanie could not get any near to the final 4. Given the dynamics of the jury, they would all feel betrayed if an Ulong got to the final 2 and they would vote for Stephanie in a heartbeat.
Here's my point if you look at Ian's background: He very much is a leader. He was Student body President at Penn State and accourding to an article about him, he even survived an impeachment attempt. He also was an actor. This is a kid who very much knows politics. he knows politics and how to work people. But in a game like Survivor, the leader more often then not gets voted off. So, Ian has his front man: Tom. However, as the young, cute, funny guy, he can easily spout of ideas and plans that are good that his alliance follows.
Now this doesn't mean Ian wins. I'd love to see Ian win, but I know the spoilers all say Katie is in the final 2. We have seen so much of Katie/Ian strategizing together and very little Katie/Tom. However, Katie did mention in the confessional that Tom wants to take her to the final 2.
This being said, we have all known about the final 3 alliance for weeks. Perhaps, this time the end is so obvious that they decide to let us see how the final 2 become the final 2.. (Trick us that way.) Plus, we have Katie saying she can't beat tom or Ian..
I can really live with either Tom or Ian winning. As for Ian, I really disagree with the idea that Katie is manipulating him. I could be wrong but Ian did see through her behavior at reward council. He's not going around like a trusting puppy. I think he does like Katie as a friend, but he also sees her as a nice final 2 partner. She's the Clay goat.
This season though the Koror 5 and Stephanie were really seen as the only players who had a logical game plan and given the fact that Ulong was decimated it makes sense that the Core alliance would dominate.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
05-08-05, 04:08 PM (EST)

116. "RE: Episode 12"

It's very interesting to see different views from the same observations.
I wish I could go back and watch a tape to be sure who said it first, but I know that the idea of staying with a Gregg vote came up during Tom and Ian's discussion. Let's call it a mutual understanding. I do know that it was Tom that said to Ian that he had to make sure Katie knew they were ready to risk the rock and that was the key.
TOM IS NOT IAN'S FRONT MAN!!!!
As far as Stephenie is concerned, I thought Ian felt pressured by Gregg to eliminate her. To me that is proven by the way Ian pushed Janu into quitting thus avoiding to vote for Stephenie so early.
I had Koror as an M-Tribe only for the first 2 episodes. Then it became the "Tom Show". Not only was he in charge but all the other strong players let him take control. They probably figured the leaders don't stay but the only one who targeted him directly has been Stephenie. All the others envision eliminating him a little later. A little too late!
The best proof I have that Koror is a tribe with 1 active leader is the elimination of Willard. At that time they had a free boot, having won the challenge but still having to eliminate someone. It was too early to go against one of the other leaders but then why go against Willard instead of the other leader's supporter? A vote to eliminate Caryn back then would have hurt Tom later on. Gregg could've gone after Katie knowing she was close to Ian and not part of his plan. He would've had the votes if he had tried. Why not consider any of those options instead of voting Willard? Simply because Koror was a tribe in perfect agreement. An Ideal tribe.

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becca 17 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
05-08-05, 08:51 PM (EST)

117. "RE: Episode 12"

When I talk about front man. I don't mean that Ian never talks to people. HE's much closer to Katie then Tom and so Ian does the deal talking to her.
What i mean by front man is that he let Tom take leadership of the tribe. Tom was the one bossing people around camp, about sorry no water for showers. If you notice Coby has made complaints about Tom, but not Ian. Ian's made very few enemies in this game because he's played the nice cute fun guy, whom everyone loves.
Tom also overshadows him a bit in physical abilities; however, we saw in the last immunity challenge that Tom and Ian just have different strengths in different physical areas. (In all of the phases of the competition, sometimes Ian came ahead and other times Tom did.) I wouldn't be suprised though if Ian happily downplayed his abilities a bit.
I'm not saying that Tom is Ian's puppet he isn't. What I am saying is that Ian is allowing Tom to take on the more public role as Tribal leader. However, when it comes to alliance leader, and whose influencing who to vote for. I think Ian's the one whose saying this person is in this person goes. We know that he was the one who set up the alliance in the first place.
Its very intersting but we have heard very little talk about what a threat Ian is. We haven't even heard one person say that they don't like Ian. Ian could very easily be the one person everyone in the tribe is undersetimating because he seems quite bright.
Coby posted on Survivor Sucks. We know it was him because he commented on Survivor Live that he got in trouble for it. He made a comment about Ian in company voted him out. This is very telling.
I'm just saying is that in many ways this is a very predictable season. And I think Ian was underestimated. Perhaps it is a man final 2, or an Ian/katie final 2. They decide to make at least the winner a suprise by making it look like if Tom gets to the final 3, he automatically wins because he is stronger. Then, we get Ian coming out and outlasting Tom. It would be a suprise.

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
05-12-05, 07:32 AM (EST)

126. "RE: Episode 12"

The thing that alot of people get confused about is what makes a leader in the Nash theory definition. Basically if a person has charisma and can get people to follow them, if they have the strength and the brains to change the game when it needs to, that is what Nash would consider a leader in Survivor. Ian has that quality, as does Tom, and so did Gregg. Gregg's biggest obstacle was that he was battling two other leader types for the right to get the followers to vote with him, and he couldn't quite swing it. A leader has to choose his or her moment to get the votes to swing. Most of the time if there are two many leader types, they will end up battling each other and picking each other off until they are in the minority and the UTR players then can make their move.
It is all about control. If Katie had been playing her cards right, she would indeed have the best shot at winning this game with her strategy. But I believe that her critical error was jumping from the leader in power at a time when the new leader (Gregg) didn't have enough power. Because Tom and Ian have witnessed her willingness to abandon them, they will not be quick to trust her again. They will however need to use her to advance themselves in the game.
So the advantage shifts back to Tom and Ian, but only one can win the battle, and really they can't win it by going against each other in the finals.
I firmly believe that Tom has this game in his hands because he is less emotional about his choices. Ian will let emotions make his decisions for him, and it will bite him in the end.

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michel 10958 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
05-13-05, 01:30 PM (EST)

131. "RE: Episode 12"

I agree that Ian and Gregg both had charisma and made bonds with other players but they both let Tom be the sole active leader. Going back to The Nash heory, we had the exact situation that best examplifies his theory. Koror had 4 men when a woman came into the tribe and Tom was the only one to approach Stephenie and let her know the situation at camp. Gregg and Ian let him make the move and didn't talk to her. And to top it off, when Coby, who was neither a follower or leader, made his move towards Stephenie, the whole tribe shot him down.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
05-09-05, 02:46 AM (EST)

118. "RE: Episode 12"

The Pecking Order Challange always seems to bring out the paranoia. The dynamics were a bit different for this version because it is only Koror members left in the game(It seems like I say this every episode ) We aren't getting the obvious angry looks or comments that usually come with this challange. What we heard were several passive agressive comments.
The most significant one was made by Tom, as pointed out by VS.
Tom was playing as if he was trying to draw out the pecking order with no regard to if he won this challange or not. He got the ball rolling and then just let the momentum carry the game to the end.
Gregg and Jenn seemed to be playing this game oblivious to the fact that they were revealing their alliance to Katie and the strength of their bond to one another. Gregg made the bonehead move of all time by looking back at Jenn for what to do.
Katie almost made the classic mistake of being to much in between the two alliances. She somehow managed to sneek by once again .
Of the three people who didn't go on the trip, Ian was the most upset. This is the first time we have seen Ian openly upset about something. This signaled the end to Ian's big adventure.
Choices and Consequences
Gregg's choice of who he brought on the reward was obviously a wrong one. He did all the right things after returning from the RC, he talked to Tom and Ian to make sure that they were still staying with the plan. As TC was drawing closer you could tell that his gut was telling him something was wrong, but he ignored that feeling. Meanwhile T/I/C had already worked all the angles, including the bold move of what to do if there was a tie.
Jenn has now made the shift from being Gregg's partner to fully exposed. Of all the players left in the game she did not make one significant statement or bold move this episode. I'm going to be very interested to see what she has to say to Katie next week in light of her betrayal.
Katie was really caught in the middle, by her own doing of course. She jumped alliances, then just as quickly jumped back. She was clearly caught off gaurd by what Ian had said with little time to process what to do. She's going to have some explaining to do to Jenn.
I had to laugh at Caryn's comments during TC. Does she really believe she was a target because she had won some RC's, or was she completely putting us on? Either way it doesn't matter. She is just a pawn in this game. Neither Jenn or Katie want to finish behind her. Look for Caryn to out next week. I don't think she is going to leave quitely though.
Ian was faced with a choice this week. He, of course, went to Tom to help him decide what to do, thus exposing Katie, and giving Tom some valuable information.
Tom gained valuable information this week. Once again he was talked about as a target yet Caryn was the one voted on. Tom's position was greatly improved this week. He has Caryn in his hip pocket after saving her from elimination once again and Ian firmly back in his camp.
The key quote that stuck out to me this week was by Ian:
“I told Katie I wouldn’t write her name down and that means a lot to me”
We've seen these sort of quotes before and they usually come up again at the final TC, were the name that is written down is for that of the winner. Ian, will be true to his word, and he won't write Katie's name down, but instead write down Tom's...as the winner.

DRONES

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becca 17 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
05-09-05, 03:23 AM (EST)

119. "RE: Episode 12"

LAST EDITED ON 05-09-05 AT 03:26 AM (EST)
I agree that normally when a Survivor says I won't write your name down, later they don't vote for them. But in all those cases, they end up being ticked off people who were screwed. So unless Katie renigs on a deal with Ian and it is possible in the final 5, I don't see Ian reverting to that as a reason for not voting for Katie. Although he may still vote for Tom.
I do think it is interesting that we don't see much Tom/Katie interaction. However, in every case they showed Ian and Katie it was because valuable info was being based. 1.Katie telling Ian that she wanted to turn on Tom. 2. Ian telling Katie about the flip vote.
I wonder if instead they are letting the viewers know that Tom/Ian only have a final 3 deal, so that the viewers understand why one doesn't pick the other. Since viewers are set cheering for Tom and Ian..
I don't see though how you can say Ian was doing nothign. I think the editors may want you to think so but I heavily disagree.
From day one Ian had an alliance with Katie, and day 2 an alliance with Tom. That shows strategy thinking on his part. Also, I think you can make some significant arguments that Ian's making a lot of the strategic decisions. It was Ian's call to boot Greg. Tom we saw before the merge wanted to keep Stephanie. In that little talk between Gregg, Tom, and Ian. YOu had Tom wanting to keep her, Gregg arguing to get rid of her and Ian making the final call. Ian is much smarter and savier than people are giving him credit for.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
05-09-05, 10:51 PM (EST)

120. "RE: Episode 12"

I think the editors may want you to think so...
The next question to ask yourself, is why do they(the editors) want the audiance to think so?

DRONES

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
05-10-05, 08:53 AM (EST)

121. "RE: Episode 12"

I am curious, VS, do you ever see anything that seems completely ludicrous? From a spoiling standpoint everything you see seems to follow a linear progression - storylines, conflicts etc.
Do you ever see anything that just jumps out and you have disregard because it is completely ludicrous?
For example, have you ever watched an episode this season and seen something that leads you to believe Caryn is the winner?
If this sort of thing does happen, how do you decide what thoughts follow the linear progression, what thoughts are ridiculous and what thoughts are a possibility?
Do you ever see completely bizarre alternatives, or do you mostly see a consistent image, or are you blocking out a consistent image that seems ridiculous regardless?

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
05-10-05, 12:14 PM (EST)

122. "RE: Episode 12"

Great great comments everyone!! KO, always glad to see you as you know I was wondering when the Nash perspective would join us!
Survivor is viewed and played a lot of times very subjectively. I've always stated that what I may see, someone else may see differently and I welcome ALL perspectives.
applejack there are many ludicrous moments in Survivor which obviously makes for better viewing but as you state, those of us who follow the show from an editing standpoint have, over time, discerned patterns that have emerged by either the characterization of players or the "story"
You know I have always said there are room for mistakes as Mark Burnett has adjusted his editing to reflect either a message he wants to showcase during a particular season or because he wants to keep things fresh. But there are patterns that I have followed and I would like to think that a majority of them are consistent.
Your example with Caryn............ there is nothing that the editing has shown me this season or from past seasons that Caryn would be the winner.
Certain examples include (again, Vecepia nothwithstanding):
(As stated in my last message) Usually the winner makes some type of "decree" they are there for the million or to get to the end or some type of remark that tells the audience their goal is nothing but to be the victor. Caryn has not told us this.
The winner is NOT a pawn. This is different than being under the radar mind you. Caryn was "utilized" and this was clearly shown. Prior winners are only utilized if they tell us they are going to allow someone to utilize them. This is hard to put down in words so I hope you get the gist of what I am saying
The winner may NOT be the most prevalent or colorful character but they are certainly not the LEAST either. (Again Vecepia aside as Mark Burnett veered in a completely different direction) Caryn has not, in any way, shown me to be anything but someone who is just a contestant; the activity is going on around her and by everyone else BUT her
There are other patterns that emerge in the editing but I'm just giving a few and only with respect to Caryn since you mentioned her
At this point and what we have been seeing for quite some time now is that Ian and Tom have had the most ideal edit for a win. Because of certain ways they are being characterized, Tom seems to appear in a somewhat better position. and I won't revisit ALL the "stuff" Katie has been established as a perfect final two foil and both Jenn and Caryn are there by virtue of what has been dictated for them. Gregg unfortunately laid his plan out in too much detail and that is usually a "no no" in terms of editing
As far as anything that was ever REALLY ludicrous? Vecepia winning would be the ultimate in that. After the fact, we understand what Mark Burnett attempted to do but during it, it was extremely mind boggling. However, I did learn a lot about characterization that season which I made mental note of for future shows.
Ian's note about not writing Katie's name down..... I knew some people would like that one. I was a little more interested in his telling Katie's brother in law how he "has Katie's back" This does concern me because he made note of his promise in confessional also. Again, couple this with Jeff's comments about a mistake in judgement and my questioning if Katie is his achilles heel, I'm concerned that Ian ultimately is too loyal for his own good.

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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
05-10-05, 03:07 PM (EST)

123. "RE: Episode 12"

We may have already seen Ian's mistake in judgment, with his unwillingness to heed Katie's warning that Tom might go on an immunity run and win the game if they don't take him out. Ian may be too loyal to Tom as well.

Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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becca 17 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
05-10-05, 05:44 PM (EST)

124. "RE: Episode 12"

But was Jeff's judgement comments before the show taped. Because it would make sense that someone as young as Ian 23, would have judgement issues.
Jeff has made other comments about Ian about how he's done a lot in his young life to prepare him. He's also said that Ian's the type of player that doesn't appear as much of a threat as he is, and that one day you wake up and go, oh my gosh why did I keep him here.
I actually think not getting rid of Tom at this point was a good call on Ian's part. Tom is a shield for Ian, but once Tom goes Ian becomes everyone's target. The weaker players will go after him next. So, at that point in the game, it was smart to keep Tom around.. Besides Ian has been able to out perform Tom in some challenges.
I do think though that if Tom doesn't win immunity at final 4 it would be a mistake in judgement for Ian to not vote out of Tom right then and there. Same goes for Tom with Ian. However, a part of me does think that ian and Tom would rather have the other win then Jen or Katie. That they have both probably agreed, to take each other to the final 3 and then the best man wins.
As for Ian's loyalty to Katie. Ian said himself he doesn't trust her. I think ian looks at Katie as a good final 2 partner.
He's not going to be selling himself down the river for her...Ian quitting to quit makes no sense.
Although I think that Ian believes he can beat Tom in an endurance contest. While Tom is a fireman, Ian also has endurance training. In his biography he talks about how he competed in a a dance marathon at Penn State, where you don't sit for 24/48 hours. That probably took a lot of endurance training to prepare for that event. Plus, Ian is a swimmer and he's almost 20 years younger than Tom, although Tom has more body fat.
A part of me thinks that Tom may be a shield for an Ian win. That Tom is the Lex, to Ian's Ethan. I disagree that Tom is shown as more complex then Ian, I think Ian is far more complex. All we have heard Tom talk about is the game, maybe a family reference but we haven't gotten a real glimpse into Tom's personality. On contrast, we have goofy Ian, vulnerable Ian, scheming, smart Ian, and loyal Ian. We could easily be his relationship with Katie, because one they have to explain why Katie does not vote out Ian in the final 5, and to they have to explain perhaps why Ian takes Katie to the final 2 over Tom.
I think they could easily be editing Ian as someone who is a bit overshadowed from Tom, but then eventually Ian turns out to be the wolf in sheeps clothing..
I do though think Tom easily could be the winner because we here so much, they are idiots for not voting me off.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
05-11-05, 04:45 AM (EST)

125. "RE: Episode 12"

Jeff's comments are made after they are finished taping.
From the very beginning Ian has proved himself a strong competitor in challanges, although he has struggled against Tom in physical challanges.
It has become clear to me that Ian's relationship with Katie is very complex, unlike his relationship with Tom, which seems more straight forward.
What we see in the editing over and over is Tom the fireman and Ian the happy go lucky kid on a big adventure. We also see him as somewhat indecisive when it comes to making hard decisions about the game.
Your example of Lex and Ethan being the same as Tom and Ian, respectively, just doesn't seem to apply. Ethan was never shown as happy go lucky guy just there to have a good time. Ethan was very involved in the decision making. Ethan stayed in the background and let Lex take all the heat, but we were always reminded that Ethan was a SERIOUS player. He was viewed as the leader behind Lex. This is not Ian.
Lex was a cut throat player who was very tempermental, prone to out bursts. He was paranoid and demanded loyalty, and when betrayed he vowed revenge. This is not Tom.
Nothing in Ian's editing has shown him to be a wolf in sheeps clothing. That sort of turn would be a complete surprise and against his character. Katie is more the wolf in sheeps clothing. I would view her as more of a Lex, as much as anyone can be Lex
All that being said, I'm not completely ruling out Ian as being in the F2 and winning. He has certainly done enough to warrant a winners edit. I just have Tom slightly ahead of him as of now.
DRONES

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
05-12-05, 08:56 AM (EST)

127. "RE: Episode 12"

Ultimately this thread is about long term outcomes. We attempt early on to determine those who will be there towards the end based on the editing and characterization.
There has been much discussion regarding Tom and Ian in terms of their edit and it is refreshing to see two very highly edited characters that bode well to viewers. Some may prefer Ian more and some prefer Tom but I think it is fairly safe to say that both of these individuals are to be given a lot of merit for their characterization on the show.
There are nuances in editing that we all learn about and are still learning but viewing the show will never get the same response from everyone.
Both Ian and Tom were deemed early on to be two "characters" who will make good based on their editing and this came to fruition. We can only speculate obviously on the final outcome in terms of editing and sometimes Mark Burnett will deviate (Vecepia) and sometimes it is clear as the nose on our faces (Brian)
This upcoming episode may be crucial in terms of these two individuals. Katie has been established for quite some time to be that perfect foil and we have already been shown that Caryn and Jenn are not edited in terms of end game success.
I will be watching this episode carefully in terms of more fleshing out of Tom and Ian and how they are playing the end game, obviously looking for certain quotes and discussions that are purposely shown for some insight especially in light of the fact that we are heading for the end.
Editing of a show, especially one like Survivor, can be very subtle or very blatant. Every season I realize the "magic" of it. It can be tricky because as we know, some things are there because they just are and some things are there for a reason and a lot of this is known after the fact.
I hope we are able to quickly peruse this episode with everyone's observations since we won't have much time but I do wish to again reiterate how impressed I am with everyone's wonderful thoughts and insight!

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
05-13-05, 12:13 PM (EST)

128. "RE: And the final four is here"

Well I assumed last night would give us more food for thought and am glad to see Mark Burnett did not fail me. He has slowly “fleshed” out the characters and it seems that he is continuing (as least for me ) to show certain aspects of these people that will help us understand the game they are playing and the decisions they are making and may continue to make.
For what it is worth, Caryn allowed me to enjoy this Tribal Council immensely! I have no doubt she felt and saw that she probably wasn’t going to be saved so why not lay everyone’s dirty laundry out on the table

Jenn - It has been apparent for some time now that Jenn has not done anything editing wise to be an end game player. She was upset obviously over Gregg leaving. After all, he was her cushion as well as her playmate. It was clear to Jenn as the nose on her face. Not once during this season has Jenn made any direct strategic moves. She was literally cushioned in her original Koror Five which is breaking down. With no real plan or strength, Jenn is very uncomfortable. The fact remains that Katie, Tom and Ian have been intricately edited and developed; not only with each other but as individuals makes it clear that THIS story needs to play out Jenn has no part in this; she is good at being the person that says “Yes, what he/she said!” That, a winner does not make. As nothing more for her happened in this episode as mentioned before, she has yet to tell us about going to the end then there is no place for her at the final TC except as a judge and jury
Ian says: Jenn is smooth; she handled it well. Jenn is playing the game to win..... have to worry about the girls turning”
A nice compliment but really not important. Jenn would not react any other way but taking Gregg’s vote in stride or it would hurt her. While Ian may mention Jenn is playing the game to win; we have not heard this from Jenn and it is a foregone conclusion that anyone would say someone is there to win. This statement along with her assistance in trying to utilize Caryn is the dose that Mark Burnett tends to give players prior to their conclusion. Nothing of real substance but a nod of acknowledgement.
Katie
Katie, as we established, is the most popular person out there This is the curse of the perfect final two foil (“curse” is being used tongue in cheek) Katie has impressed me despite the fact that Mark Burnett made sure to showcase Katie as the unlikeable person. The problem that we see for Katie is that she didn’t think her strategy entirely through. She chose to stick with people who were making the decisions; once they appeared to lose power she would flip. The problem with that scenario is that she is counting on the people who are “losing power” to not come up with any alternatives. In addition, her “flip” isn’t to people who will follow through with what she wants. Survivor is a very thoughtful game and “flip flopping” can be a dangerous strategy.
With that said, it has already been made very clear to us that she is the perfect candidate to bring to the final two (per Mark Burnett and also by the contestants) Katie would have a lot of ground to cover with the jury if she has any chance to win this. The fact remains that usually the winner is somewhat balanced in their edit along the way; people are not black or white in terms of their characters and Mark Burnett does attempt to show a graying so the audience can see all facets of their personality. Katie essentially was never edited in a “positive manner” She herself stated she was the sneaky one and any confessionals she made on her strategy appeared very one dimensional. One may argue this last episode highlighted her “sensitive side” but I would “argue” that at first viewing it seemed more manipulative over Ian’s feelings and I was left feeling “bad” for Ian as opposed to empathizing with Katie. In a nod however to Katie:
Jenn “Katie cleaned house....... wary of Katie, she is playing a tough game that I didn’t know about”
Ian
There have been many of you who have viewed Ian differently from me. All the better! My view has not changed unfortunately and was reinforced again last night. A great player and wonderful character but to repeat myself, Ian appears to have a very difficult time making hard decisions. This is not to take away from the strategies he has employed but rather in the face of a direct confrontations, Ian gets flustered and does not want to decide. This is a CRUCIAL aspect of the game.
During the discussion with Katie and Jenn when Jenn brings up eliminating Tom......
Ian “I don’t know yet” Jenn asks why as Tom is his biggest competition
Ian “I don’t want to go back on my word”
Admirable traits Ian has and should be commended but this is NOT “Parchese” as Ian says, this is Survivor. His state of mind:
Ian confession “I thought it would be easy to get to the final four....... feel like I am on the edge of a cliff.........”
During Caryn’s confrontation, again Ian is a deer caught in the headlights........
Caryn “Is it you, me and Tom or you, Tom and Katie”
Ian “Us”
Caryn”Why should I believe that”
Ian then goes on to say he wasn’t making a decision until that night as he can’t answer; it wouldn’t be fair
And Tom directly to Ian: “You just gave away her vote tonight”
Ian’s response “I don’t think so”
Again, editing is a manipulative tool There have been discussions in this thread that Ian is a leader with regards to his real life accomplishments and so forth and that is no doubt true. Thed editing however is not leading us to believe that Ian wants to have to make hard and calculated decisions because he is loyal and he is good and there is nothing wrong with that. We aren’t meant to think less of Ian but the editing implies that the “game” is proving difficult for him.
More.......
Ian to Katie “No matter what you learned (from Caryn/Jenn) I said wouldn’t vote against you, I have every intention to take you to the final two”
Katie”........you lied to me, I can’t believe anything you said, I feel like I lost my best friend”
Ian”Sometimes friends make huge mistakes, I’m scatterbrained. If you want me to step out, I will do it!” and then...
Ian: I am going to try to be your friend for the rest of my life. I’m off my rocker in so many ways, I’m sorry and that is all I can say”
Ian is a very likeable and sympathetic character but unfortunately there was quite a lot of Ian that reaffirmed my previous thoughts on him........
Tom “She (Katie) is playing you”
Ian “Maybe she is”
Tom”She doesn’t care......... she is waiting for an opportunity and we gave it to her”
Ian’s subsequent confessional then reflects he is unhappy with how Tom is playing now but then says: “If I had my brains, I would take Tom out.......”
This episode showcased the methods of Tom and Ianwhich were brilliantly showcased in the back and forth conversations between Tom and Caryn and Ian, Katie and Jenn. What was attempted appeared to be how both men handled strategy discussions
Tom: “We want to see you stick around to the end” (to Caryn) and the three of us (Tom/Ian/Katie) were tight but Katie wavered”
Tom: “You (Caryn) have a lot to think about if you are solid..........” “You are safer with us”
Tom takes control of the situation with Caryn; lets her know what he would LIKE to see happen and puts the burden on Caryn. This was majorly contrasted with the simultaneous conversation Ian was having with Katie and Jenn.......
Katie tells Ian about voting out Caryn
Jenn tells Ian about voting out Tom
Ian says he doesn’t know yet and doesn’t want to go back on his word and he would rather take out Caryn
Jenn: “I understand about being attached to people, it is a lot to think about”
Ian: “Uh huh”
Who controlled this conversation? It wasn’t Ian. Ian seemed to appear dangerously corned and the irony of this is that he is a very threatening player being monopolized by two ladies and Ian appeared to be losing control of the conversation.
Ian simply could have said to both of them, we have a lot to decide and need to see what are options are. He also could have put more burden on Jenn or Katie by placing questions on THEIR shoulders.
Note again, this is not necessarily how the event occurred but rather what we were meant to see and the question is why?
Ian is a very astute person and has some very unique and covert strategies. His “purple rock” play and last minute talk with Katie was impressive and his taking Tom on the reward challenge was also smart regardless that it “appeared” not to be. Again, however, it reveals that Ian seems uncomfortable in just “taking the bull by the horns” His maneuvers, while strategic are removing HIMSELF from having to do “dirty work”
This is actually a good strategy but it depends on the person doing it Ian’s edit seems to show he does it because he doesn’t have the stomach to be disloyal as opposed to just being crafty.
I truly adore Ian’s character but it appears the “game” is not as easy for him AS a game of Parchese
Ian at TC: It was the biggest mistake (not taking Katie) I made in the game, not just from a game standpoint but from a friendship standpoint......”
Tom
As already mentioned we have seen quite a bit of Tom and sides to his character. He has been leader, father, hero, manipulator and counsel and as the preview stated “dominant” We pretty much have his character down pat and the tribe has made us aware they are fully knowledgeable as well but I equate their insight as the “shoulda, coulda, woulda” thought process and despite his being the topic of everyone’s discussion to get rid of because of how threatening his is, time and again........it is never followed through and one has to wonder if Tom winning immunity at times even mattered?
Obviously Tom has won crucial immunities but the storyline of “Will this be the week they get it together and get Tom out?” has worn out its question mark; now I simply asking is what happens that he ISN’T voted out?
Despite this, Tom KNOWS he is the biggest target out there:
Tom confessionl “I’m scrambling to save my neck, you can only take an alliance so far. Katie is looking for a better deal and I don’t hold that against her” and after his IC win.......
Tom confessional “I said immunity was important; I got lucky. Any Immunity challenge I don’t win, I am gone” Quotes like these always make me go hmmmmm, Tom claiming the last two immunities is not unlikely I remember Chris last season with a confessional similar and it came to fruition as well
Tom certainly knows how to play the word game; in this vein I find a similarity to Brian of Thailand. It is that undefinable quality one has to allow someone to think they are making their own decision when in reality they are subtly convincing that person to make a decision that will benefit themselves.
Tom to Caryn: If you are going to be third out, what are you playing for?
Tom to Ian: Why would you trust Katie?
Tom to Ian: WE’LL convince her (Katie) to take us to the end (he knows however that really Ian is the one who have any effect on her)
Tom to Katie: .............(regarding how their games depend on one another) You may not get to the final two.
Tom to Katie: You will make your own decision.

This is not to say that Tom is charming people. Both Ian and Katie expressed their distaste with Tom’s strong arm tactics but it is very difficult to stop someone like that when you can’t go head to head with them. Katie is somewhat at their mercy in light of the fact that it is virtually impossible she can control the final three immunity challenge and Ian unfortunately has a distaste for the unpleasant portion of this game and thus, Tom is attempting to capitalize on both.
Not that this comment does mean anything (we try to distinguish true comments to fun ones but it is fun nevertheless)
Tom (upon going to claim necklace) “I don’t have to walk over that bridge again do I”
Jeff “No more bridges, you earned a fair walk”

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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
05-13-05, 12:40 PM (EST)

130. "RE: And the final four is here"

LAST EDITED ON 05-13-05 AT 12:43 PM (EST)
Great observations as always VS.
Ian says: Jenn is smooth; she handled it well. Jenn is playing the game to win..... have to worry about the girls turning”
A nice compliment but really not important.
I agree this was inconsequential in relation to Jenn's overall performance. My impression is that it was thrown in there to give the audience a teensy reason to think Jenn might be in danger, since as the episode progressed everyone else became a potential target as well. Ironically after last week, Jenn ended up probably in the least danger without having immunity. So I think Ian's remark was just an introductory feint by MB to make the audience think Jenn could be leaving right after Gregg.

Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
05-13-05, 12:18 PM (EST)

129. "Choices and Consequences"

LAST EDITED ON 05-13-05 AT 12:18 PM (EST)
The theme comes back with a vengeance as we get to the end of the show.
This episode, Ian had to deal with the consequences of his choice to take Tom on the RC. Both men were also debating who to take on reward when one of them won, with Tom recognizing the potential consequence of leaving the three women behind to plot.
Veruca had asked what would happen if Ian was forced to make a decision, and we've been reminded how Ian makes snap decisions without thinking them through. For some reason, he ignored the decision that he and Tom had made about bringing a girl along, and he didn't think about how Katie would react to his decision. When faced with her wrath, he responded emotionally. What a contrast with Tom's methodical play, where emotion takes a major back seat.
A major choice during the episode was to decide which woman to take as their third, with Tom supporting Caryn and Ian supporting Katie. Ian wanted to stick with the original plan, while Tom wanted to ponder the choice after questioning Katie's commitment to their alliance. Caryn had told us herself that Tom would be in charge of how long she was in the game, and it played out as he chose to stick to the original plan.

When it comes to the jury, I think that choices and consequences are going to come into play yet again. Our spoilers tell us Katie and Tom are the final 2. Which of these contestants has been forced to make choice after choice during the voting, and thus appears to be heading toward facing the consequences? Katie. Her strategy has been to follow the power, which can get you to the final two, but does nothing to advance you to the final prize. She's been trying to avoid dealing with the consequences of her actions as long as possible with her passive approach.
Meanwhile, we've heard Tom's key quote about being willing to accept consequences. He showed it again when he and Ian devised the strategy to oust Gregg. They knew it was a strategy that would put both of them at risk, but they were willing to accept the consequence that actually making a move could cost them. He hasn't had to make many choices - winning immunity time and time again frees you from a lot of that pressure - but when faced with a choice, he's been willing to stick his neck out, play the game, and face the consequences.

"If there was ever a time you wanted permission to run over a clown . . . ."

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becca 17 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
05-13-05, 01:40 PM (EST)

132. "RE: Choices and Consequences"

I actually think it has been Ian whose been controlling this game the entire time. He's a terrible liar, and doesn't like going back against his word. I think this might be Ian's fatal flaw. Especially if he doesn't vote out Tom in the final 4, if he can. His not wanting to make promises was the reason he refused to make a promise to Caryn.
This being said Ian has done a lot of things right in this game. Mainly, he has managed to stack the final 4 with two people who are very loyal to him. It was in Katie's interest to go against Ian, and she didn't. It was really in Tom's best interest to get rid of Ian at the final 5, and I don't know why Tom didn't see that against Jen, katie, and Caryn he has a good shot at winning the next two immunities.
IF it had been Tom wihtout Immunity, there is no doubt he would have been voted out at tribal council.
This being said Ian's very good at the social aspect of Survivor, and he's been the one who has made all the booting decisions (really in the end.) Ian's always making comments about how he has decisions to make. I think he's the one whose been making all the booting choices.
Janu/Stephanie: tom wants to keep Stephanie a little longer. Gregg disagrees. Ian announces: I love Stephanie she has to go. Tom aquiexes.
Gregg vote. Ian went to Tom and convinces him to take out Gregg.
Caryn vote. Tom wants Caryn in the final 3. Ian doesn't he wants to keep Katie because he knows she's his final 2 partner. Tom at the reward says, is obviously convinced by Ian because he makes a comment about how he needs to make sure Katie knows they are loyal.
Ian has some fatal flaws but he's been the one controlling this game.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
05-13-05, 05:03 PM (EST)

133. "RE: Choices and Consequences"

LAST EDITED ON 05-13-05 AT 05:10 PM (EST)
Interesting comments. It's good to see that many have already posted their thoughts in this thread.
Ian and Tom were really fleshed out this episode.
Choices and Consequences
Ian has to choose who to bring with on reward. It seemed the choice was obvious, but Ian, true to character, hesitated and then went against what he and Tom had talked about. All of the drama with Katie could have been avoided if Ian had taken her.
So now we see how Ian responds when he has to make a difficult choice. He breaks down and cries, begging Katie for forgiveness.
Katie who has been fumming, doesn't want to talk to Ian at first. Ian convinces her to talk saying that they need to do so and that it is outside of the game! Ian is clearly shaken up and then promises Katie that he would sacrifice himself for her if she aske him to...hmmmm....Maybe a bit of foreshadowing here.
Caryn finally gets her moment in the spotlight this episode by stiring the pot. We knew this was going to be coming with her sooner or later. She doesn't know who to trust and scrambles to get the womens alliance going again. It didn't work the last time, I don't know what makes her believe it will work this time.
Her strategy fails, and she knows it, so she used the scorched earth philosopy on her way out the door. Her speach will certainly give the jury some ammunition at F2 when they finally get to speak again.
Jenn was clearly out of her element. With her sheild gone she was unable make any decesions. Mostly what we got from her were facial expressions of shock, and slight joy at the bickering. Jenn is so out of touch that she didn't even know about the alliance break down until this episode.
Jenn did perform fairly well in both the RC and IC, just being edged out by both Ian and Tom in each challange. Her winning the next IC would certainly throw a monkey wrench into the works, but I just don't see that happening.
Tom was clearly in control this episode and was shown to have the power. Like, VS, I don't believe it was even necessary for him to have won the IC. He hasn't one the last two and didn't see a singe vote thrown his way.
We did see another side to Tom this ep., and that is of someone willing to threaten in order to get his way. Last week he made the bold move with the purple rock threat and this week, he was strong arming both Ian and Katie to keep them in line.
Even with all the power that Tom holds, he is not overconfident. While Katie and Ian are working on their relationship, Tom is working on winning the game.
I'm glad somebody picked up on Jeff's comment to Tom, about him earning a fair walk. I'm not surprised that it was VS
Ian's big adventure ended with this episode. Eventually he is going to have choose between his father, Tom and Katie his best friend.
Katie was given a firm dose of reality in this episode. She was shown to be at the mercy of others to get farther in the game. Her constant talk of alliance switching and percieved backstabing will not go over with the Jury. EPMB has set her up to be in the F2. We are now just waiting to see if it is going to be Tom or Ian.
Enjoy the finale episode everybody I'll be back to give a postmortum.
Edited to add:
Look for Jeff to really blast Ulong, except for Steph and BJ, for their game play and quiting, but in a nice way This is going to be EPMB's final shot to ensure that all future players of the game. He doesn't want to ever have another Ulong playing this game.

DRONES

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Round Robin 2914 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Howard Stern Show Guest"
05-14-05, 02:57 PM (EST)

138. "It's Burn-it's own fault"

If EPMB winds up with a crappy tribe like Ulong and/or with a bunch of quitters, it's his own d#mn fault. He's the dumb sumbeach who keeps picking these losers, and he's the dumb sumbeach who keeps using ways of picking the tribes that he can't control the outcome of. If he doesn't want a sh#tty show, it's up to him to pick people with the brains, spine and balls to play the d#mn game. If the ratings go to crap and he has to stop making the game we love, he'll have nobody to blame but himself.

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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Jerry Springer Show Guest"
05-13-05, 06:38 PM (EST)

134. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Ian made a strategic choice to take Tom on the reward. It certainly was a deliberate choice. He did not forget the discussion he had with Tom; instead he had thought about the Tom-Caryn situation and acted accordingly.
We were shown that if it were T/I/C as an alliance, the alliance benefitted Tom more than Ian because Tom had the relationship with Caryn more than Ian did. Ian wanted to get Katie into the F4 because he wants to be F2 with her.
Ian believes he can apologize himself out of most anything with Katie. I think he senses Katie's need to be liked/loved and he is pulling her strings. He knew the girls would try the female alliance and he and Tom moved to block it--Tom with Caryn, and Ian with Katie. As bumbling as itis, Ian's apology strategy is working with Katie--she even let us know he was her best friend out there.
Gregg's post boot interview tells is there is another theme at play--the I don't want the other person to do better than I did theme. In this case, Katie did not want Caryn to do better than she would, so that played in Ian's favor to get Katie to vote out Caryn.
I have been hoping for an Ian win; however, I agree with VS about Ian's edit and that he is not being edited to win at this point. Well done, VS! I am already looking forward to the next survivor season and reading your editing thread. Thank you for a pleasurable, insightful read each week!
Editing aside, I will still be rooting for Ian to win on Sunday, all the way until he is no longer in the running.

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
05-13-05, 08:33 PM (EST)

135. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Me too, Zazzy. Ian has been my pick since the beginning and in my view he still hasn't put a foot wrong. I am starting to get really hopeful that he could take this to the bank!!
A couple of people say that Ian received the first signs of a negative edit last night, and assume that this is the beginning of the end for him. On the contrary, I believe it is Tom who received the negative edit last night. Of course, neither of them was shown in their very best light, but who would expect anything different at this stage of the game? Anyone who is here to play for the million dollars has to make some tough decisions at this stage of the game, so we shouldn't expect all sweetness and light from any of the competitors.
That said, I think Ian came off better than Tom in last night's editing. Ian has been consistent since Day 1 that Katie is going to the final 3, whereas Tom has been much less consistent and is even angling to change the arrangements at the last minute now that he has identified that Ian can make Katie do whatever he wants (note that we now have two tribal councils in a row in which Katie has fallen in line with Ian's instructions as to which way to vote despite all indications to the contrary). Tom knows that Katie is firmly in Ian's back pocket and recently he's become mistrustful of the strength of his alliance with Ian, given that Ian clearly has a loyal lieutenant in Katie whereas Tom has no equivalent sidekick. He's assumed all along that Ian is his sidekick.
In the process of scrambling to try to strengthen his position in case Ian/Katie stick together, Tom is looking somewhat undignified -- quite the contrast with Mister In Control we've seen so far -- and even rather desperate, throwing his net wider to try to secure an alternative to the original plan. He knows he's ignored Jen for far too long to suddenly chum up with her, so he was pinning his hopes on Caryn and working the "Katie is going behind your back, dude" angle with Ian in order to get Ian to dump his own Back Pocket Katie and keep Tom's Back Pocket Caryn instead.
Ian, on the other hand, shows himself last night to be very reluctant to make promises to Caryn that he knows he will not keep, even if it would make the sail into that night's tribal council a lot smoother. After Caryn's meeting with Ian and Tom on the beach where she makes clear she knows the Ian-Tom-Katie F3 plan, Ian recognizes two things. First, that if he makes a promise to Caryn, she would immediately go back to Katie and tell her this, which is Ian recognizing a strategic problem. Second, that in addition to creating a strategic problem for himself, his friendship with Katie would also be further tried, right after he has just got done hurting her feelings about the reward. Ian's refusal to make a promise to Caryn that he has no intention of keeping speaks to his character AND to his ability to strategize, and I am sure EPMB will have been delighted to show us this aspect of Ian's gameplay.
Ian's so-called "negative" edit last night consisted of hurting Katie's feelings; aside from playing a risky game on the "woman scorned" front, he did nothing negative. Tom, on the other hand, was shown energetically conspiring to break the bonds of trust between Katie and Ian, and energetically conspiring to use Caryn to further his own progress into the game. Ian is set. Tom is scrambling. He told us last night that if Ian went home -- something he may not have overtly admitted hoping for, but for me was clearly implied -- that Tom would have to win every immunity from here on out so as not to be voted out by the women. Well, I think Tom needs to win every immunity from here on out so as not to be assassinated on Ian's orders, if you ask me.

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becca 17 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
05-13-05, 09:45 PM (EST)

136. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 05-13-05 AT 09:56 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 05-13-05 AT 09:51 PM (EST)
The earliest spoilers had Ian in the final 2 with Katie, and it wasn't till later that Merceedez had it confirmed that it was Tom not Ian. I'm wondering if her source was instructed to missteer her. (Your still a great spoiler Merceedez) I think this especially questionable because most of the spoilers had Ulong going down. I think the editors wanted to have at least some kind of suprise, so perhaps they decided to make the winner a suprise. Edit the real winner Ian as a bit of an underdog to the challenge dominating Tom. The only really good reason people are given to vote out Tom is because he's an immunity threat.
We especially had some spoilers from people who know production people and Ian who said that he gets to the final 2 but becomes kind of polorizing at the end. SEeing as in the last tribal council we had Caryn complaining mainly about Ian, Katie upset with Ian, Jen (on Insider discussing how Ian hurt Katie) and Ian deciding to take out Gregg. This spoiler has come true. We also have Ian freely telling Tom that he may vote him out at the final 4.
To me the red herring about a Tom win is that it is far to obvious. Tom's resting his game on beating Ian in the final 3, and the editing has suggested that Tom is the ultimate challenge king. Everyone even newspaper outlets are talking about how Tom's invincible and we hear tons of people talking about how Tom's a big threat including Ian.
To me the red herring is that at this current time, Ian has won more individual challenges then Tom. He and Tom are pretty evenly matched, and so I don't understand why we haven't heard any doubt or questions from Tom about his wisdom in going into the final 3 with Ian. Either Tom is extremely and overly confident. Or, the editors want the viewers to think that Tom will more than likely beat Ian.
To me another red herring is the lack of mention about Ian's chances of winning the game by the now jurors. Since Ian's won challenges too. If he Ian wins the final 3 challenge. No one is going to doubt Ian's worthiness to win. They all praise Tom and talk about Tom. But then, never even discuss Ian. We know that Ian and Tom were basically a team making a lot of decisions together. In fact, it looks like Ian's made quite a bit of decisions himself about how to get rid of, especially in the Gregg vote. Given all this, I don't understand why jurors aren't talking about what Ian's chances of winning this game.
We have heard jurors praising a lot of qualties that sound like Janu praise qualities that sound like she's picking Tom over Katie. But those qualties (winning challenges, helping Tribe with food) also fit Ian's role in the game quite well. Even Stephanie in interviews talks about how she prefers the men. She mentioned that Tom was playing a great game. And then talked about Gregg was playing a great game. (and even got her oustered) But, she never discusses the third male Ian.
While the audience would love it if Tom pulled out a win. I think the audience would also be happy if Ian pulled out the win too. The final 3, will be the best man win challenge type of thing. Ian's worst edited quality has been that perhaps he's too nice to play the game of Survivor.

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kohlibri 2 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson"
05-13-05, 11:06 PM (EST)

137. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 05-13-05 AT 11:18 PM (EST)
I also thought the editing is showing Ian as really playing a smart game, even though it is messy and out of control at times he still manages to make things go his way. He had to be thinking several steps ahead with the reward challenge. If he had taken Katie, the three that were left behind would have made sure that either he or Katie would go home. Tom and Ian both would love to see the other one go because they are each others biggest threats and they know it. I have two theories why the editing may not of spelled this out: 1) Ian didn't verbalize that he didn't have 100% trust in Tom to watch his back, because sometimes saying it (even in private to the camera) gives it more power and at this time he wants to go on as if they do have trust; or 2) it was left out to better build on Katie's feelings of betrayal and her big scene with Ian where she was angry for 5 seconds before she softened to him.
Also, if the others think that Katie and Ian are not as solid as they are, it will work to their advantage in the same way that Gregg taking Jenn worked to their disadvantage. We didn't actually see the conversation between Tom and Ian so we don't know what really transpired, but Tom did not seem that shocked to me to be picked.
I think this episode was supposed to show Ian's trial by fire. He saved himself and Katie by taking Tom. Up until this point he hadn't hit any bumps. But this had been a risk, and suddenly he was in real danger but with a little groveling he managed to not be voted out. Now Karen has made a big pitch against him to the jury and if he is in the final 2, we are assured alot of intense questioning. All in all a good set up for f2 tribal council drama. Whereas Tom's edit has been fading in my view. He seems a bit groggy, going along with Ian, and resorting to threats when he feels desparate.
kohlibri

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
05-15-05, 03:03 PM (EST)

139. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

You guys are making some great points. Those are some definate reasons for Ian making it to the F2.
I'm an editing whore, and although I do pay attention to some of the spoiling info, I place the majority of my trust in the editing.
Ian he has number of great qualities, as has been pointed out several times. He's a leader who's very personable. We've seen some of this during the show.
IMO, though, we have seen him portrayed as more of a goof who has a hard time making tough decisions. His breakdown during the Katie incident over him taking Tom instead of her, is a prime example of that. If he were being duplicitious, we would have seen hints of that during the show, either in his confessionals or in talks with other tribe mates.
We have seen hints of him wanting to take out Tom, yet when the opportunity has presented itself he has hesitated. Ian's failure to take Katie instead of Tom shows a lack of game play. By not taking Katie he put himself squarily in the middle of the drama.
OTH, we have not heard a single negative word about Ian from Tom. Tom has been putting all of his faith in him.
I don't know if Tom believes he can beat Ian in an IC at F3 or not, but IMO he thinks that with Ian in the F3 that he stands a good chance of having Ian take him if he, Tom, were to get beat out by Ian.
Tom, has put a lot of doubt in Ian's head about Katie. Katie for her part, has done some things that are questionable, that might make Ian doubt Katie's loyalty to him and their alliance.
Like VS I keep going back to Jeff's quote about Ian before the show aired. Ian is going to be his own undoing.
DRONES

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becca 17 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
05-15-05, 04:03 PM (EST)

140. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

LAST EDITED ON 05-15-05 AT 04:18 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 05-15-05 AT 04:14 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 05-15-05 AT 04:11 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON 05-15-05 AT 04:06 PM (EST)
Ian does have some judgement issues. He doesn't know how to lie, etc. And it has hurt him in the game. There is an older spoiler that says Ian makes the final 2. However, the jury who at first really liked the guy, doesn't like him so much in the end.
There's talk that the first vote four will be a tie and Ian almost goes but wins a challenge. I'm sure Ian's slip I'll vote you out Tom causes this. Because in his confessional last week. Tom wasn't saying how he must make sure Ian stays because he'll have to win the next challenge too. The problem is that in a challenge against Jen, Ian wins easily. Ian's being calling the boot shots, and he insisted on taking out the person who had the tight bond with Tom other than him. Yes, Ian's trusting Katie is questionable. But, you have to choose to trust at least some people in this game, and have some kind of relationships. If you don't, your gone. However, Ian's got the numbers to take out Tom.
So we have in the last tribal council. 1. Ian took out Gregg 2. caryn's mad at Ian. In insider notes, Caryn blames her booting on Ian, not Tom. In the next session Tom's attempt to vote out Ian, is explained by Ian's own plans to take out Tom. And we have a jury who suddenly realizes that Ian is not mr. Sweet and innocent as pie guy.
Yeah, there have been some judgement issues especially with Ian's inability to keep his mouth shout. This being said, we need to look at the players Jeff compared Ian too: Eliza who goes fourth, and Jenna. Jenna Morasco inspite of her judgement problems still won the game, although it almost cost her.
So, my whole thing is yeah some judgment is Ian's fatal weakness but still.
As for Ian not taking out tom. It was mentioned once, by Katie and she told him Tom's going to win all the immunities. It was wrong because Ian won the next one, and Ian couldn't afford to get rid of Tom that episode because of the Gregg/Jen thing.
It was mentioned last week by Ian that tom leaving is the "smart choice for him." But, Tom won a immunity. For me, it is more telling that we don't hear Tom talking about taking Ian out at the final 5, and the numbers for getting rid of Ian cleanly where there. Ian's his biggest challenge threat too. And the fact that Tom isn't at all worried about facing Ian in the final 3 makes me question Tom as a winner. It says that Ian's thinking down the road to the final 3 challenge and whose the best people for him to face in the final 3. While Tom isn't.

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"
05-17-05, 09:04 AM (EST)

141. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Another season over Time flies when you are having editing fun
I am thrilled that again we had so many observations and thoughts revolving around the themes of Survivor and the editing of the players. Every season we do this, I am amazed at the thought process everyone brings and how I "see" things from others' eyes.
As the seasons progress, I think we have a good handle on how Mark Burnett wants to showcase his players in terms of how they fare. We learn from past mistakes and patterns for those identifying factors such as that "final two foil", characters meant to misdirect us and potential winners based on their visibiliy, storylines and their involvement in the identified themes. The themes so directly impact those long term players and I truly believe that Mark Burnett wants to tie in his themes to those players who achieve long term status.
Making some mental notes for next season I have noted for the MOST part (again, there are always glitches to this so these factors are not obviously without "tweaking")
The long term players have either a consistent amount of face time or a steadying increase of face time
The long term players are usually also spoken ABOUT. In other words, we don't just hear from them but also from other players
The themes are related to longer term players stories and playing the game.
There is typically misdirection characters who Mark Burnett tries to bluff the audience with their "character" when essentially they are just "characters" They could be any type of character (be it positive or negative) but they usually a way of Mark Burnett trying to lead the audience down a different path or give them their 15 minutes because their "character" deserves it.
The final two people are NOT one dimensional. The "final two foil" may not always be bad and the winner may not always be good. The reason for this is because Mark Burnett needs to establish "some" element of surprise in the ending. I know the Katie and Tom situation may cause some to argue that point but Tom was certainly fleshed out from his early "Superman" persona. He could not really redeem Katie because she was what she was but he DID round out Tom so there would be some aspect of doubt by some viewers.
Characters who come in with a "shtick" are probably not the winner. If all we see is Mr. Hillbilly or Superman or Catwoman, they are shown because of this "shtick" (This naturally coincides with the fact that the winner is not a one dimensional person)
The long term players will tell the audience in some aspect about their strategy and getting to the end. Obviously there will be more than on person doing this so this just helps identify long term players, not necessarily the winner.
Personally, I have never subscribed to the winning quote. I believe there is more than just one solid quote that identifies who wins. Many have focused on this because of Richard Hatch's famous line; I doubt Mark Burnett will ever do SOLELY that again. I do believe, however, there are quotes, symbolism and so forth that surround the winner but not ONLY one quote. I will say that if we don't hear anything that pricks our ears, chances are that person isn't the winner either though.
The BOTTOM LINE is that there is NO BOTTOM LINE. Editing is adjusted every season but there are some patterns and as I said, the above that I noted are not necessarily a sure thing but they are things to look for
If anyone cares to join in, I would love to hear what you feel are editing factors as well.
I am, as always, looking forward to the next season and naturally am apologizing in advance for my always lengthy posts

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redbeard103152 466 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
05-17-05, 02:00 PM (EST)

142. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Veruca Your lengthy posts are the main reason why I enjoy Survivor as much as I do. I can't wait till Friday morning to read your posts and see if you saw or noticed something that I hadn't seen while watching the show.The imput into this thread by you and others helps make the happenings in the show clearer and the reasons behind the happenings more understandable.IMO this thread is the most important one I use while trying to figure out what may happen in both the short and long term for the charactors involved.Thank you very much for the time you spend and the ideas you share with all of us.Your insight is very much appreciated. Thanks again. Just cant wait to do it all over again next season.RedBeard

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Alchemist 110 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
05-17-05, 02:34 PM (EST)

143. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

Ms. Salt
I truly enjoyed reading your analysis as well as others who contribute, almost makes Survivor qualify as as continuing education credits in the game of life.
I lurked through Pearl Islands and All Stars being amazed at the level of intense thought that went into the episodes. Early on I admit I was rather wondering if some people had lives. Now I seem to have become a convert and deeply admire the intelligence and logic that is shown by so very many of you.
I think speculation based on logic is the ultimate in a lateral thinking puzzle. Great fun for those of us who appreciate that type of diversion.
As for editing methods, I began to take note of the ambiance as well as what was being said. The rats, snakes, sharks and spiders (oh my)along with landscape shots, music and general mood of the filming subtly enhances either what is or what MB wants percieved
and that to me is the fun of editing interpretation.
Please continue Obi Wan, you're my only hope
Alchemist

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MargoChanning 14 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
05-17-05, 04:15 PM (EST)

144. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS - thanks for all you do and to all the others who contribute to this thread. It's a must-read for me. Your insights make the show much more interesting to watch, as you pick up on things that went right over my head.
Can't wait 'til next season to watch you in action again!

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mimo 563 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
05-17-05, 04:32 PM (EST)

145. "RE: The Stage Is Set-The Players, The Game, The Editing - Palau"

VS ditto to what everyone has said. This has been one of my favorite threads to read. I've had a great time re-evaluating my impressions of the characters after watching an episode and then reading the threads to try to see how my impressions were being played upon. And also to try to figure out the future editing potential/character development/storyline for each one. I'm not quite as good as the rest of the gang, but it's definitely been fun!!!

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