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"Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall"

11-30-04, 11:40 AM (EST)
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"Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 11-30-04 AT 11:44 AM (EST)

It seems that we have made our second thread quite huge to all the great analysis so since we are going down to the home stretch, let's make a third section.

The Merger and so forth thread

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/cgi-bin/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5480&forum=DCForumID2&omm=0

And our original Editing thread

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/5313.shtml

Remember these? Some initial quotes and/or strategies of people; I was curious to see how they are panning out or if any foreshadowing may be attributed.

Ami
I'm not used to be putting second behind a man (Ami obviously CAN go now to fulfill this prophecy. We deduced this was either a losing final two quote or for this to have payoff, she would need to be there as long as only ONE man was left. This has now occurred; her prophecy has paid off)

Eliza
“I want them to underestimate me.....” “I will be fighting until the very last second” (This indeed has been true; she herself admits to being the boot that never is and perhaps, just perhaps, the others ARE underestimating her. )

Julie:
“Strategy is going to be anything that goes” “I’m going to try my damndest; I hope that is good enough” (I still don't liken her much more than final five. Chris's prior quote regarding her sneaking into the final five was most definitely a clue for any out there who believed she would be going earlier than that. However, will she fulfill his quote or was this put there just to show us she made it further than expected. Her strategy seems to be exactly what she says "anything goes" This has, perhaps, served her well with such dominant themes these players are adhering themselves too)

Scout:
“I am going to start out with integrity, fairness, loyalty. If all else fails, lie,cheat, steal.” (Scout said this on Ep, 1 on the Insider. Amazing enough, her initial thought went straight to what she has had to do apparently)

Twila:
“I feel like I am going to have to watch my back all the time.” (Twilla has fulfilled this herself with her almost paranoid like persona. Every word uttered from Twilla has been about not trusting people and feeling like she is caught somehow in the middle)

Chris
“It’s men against women, perfect. I can outsmart eight men a hell of a lot quicker than I can outsmart eight women. Women stick together, they’re thick as thieves. Men are deceiving, mischievous, untrusting human beings. Men I can manipulate. But this game, you gotta outwit, outplay, outlast people. You don’t have to outbalance them.” (The quote so many discussed. However we can look at this like I mentioned about Ami. Technially Chris fulfilled his prophecy. He can go anytime now and this quote/confessional came to fruition.)

The present
First let me extend my appreciation at the amazing observations that were made my way too many people for the last two episodes. I don't nearly acknowledge you all enough but you have made these threads unbelievably amazing to read and my, aren't we smart people

Things that made us go hmmm?

The volcano - again the eruption is becoming more prevalent again. The eruptions quieted down somewhat when Rory left then we got to see smouldering. Two episodes ago, the sparks were again igniting. IF the volcano burns fiercer this week, the Ami moment would fit excellent with this.

Eliza: "Everyone who conspires against me is off and I'm still here"

Julie wearing Chris's hat (note that after that we got to see the hidden alliance they alluded to prior; the hat was key)

Eliza's Mom: "Be nice to my Lizey out there"

Eliza's discussion to Mom: "It was either me or Leann" (well that was foreshadowing at its best)

Scout: "I was determined to play with honesty, integrity and truth and now reduced to lie, cheat and steal part"

Scout: "Vengenance is mine; sayeth the jury"

Eliza: "This motivated me..........almost there"

Twilla: "God will forgive me if I win a million bucks"

Chris: "Dougherty is going to win immunity, this is not a prediction; that's a fact."

Chris to fiance: "I'm sorry I didn't win"

Ami: "I just hope he doesn't win IC next couple of times; that would be really bad"

Twilla: "Don't cut my throat on this Chris"

Eliza: "Scout and Twilla could be lying to both of us "(to Chris)

Apparently Scout AND Twilla both discussed the strategy utlizing Eliza - so why only Twilla's shown?

At the vote: Eliza and Ami both look at each and nodded to each other. It reminded me of two gentlemen shaking hands prior to a duel.

Chris at TC winks at Eliza

Preview for next week - VOLCANO IS BUBBLING

Family Reward - while I am no expert, I have noticed those in past family reward visits that are EXTREMELY highlighted in terms of audience reaction seem to fare better than those that get the obligatory tear shed. This is NOT a hard and fast rule but it does play out more often than not.

Those family encounters that for me struck home more
Twilla and her son
Chris and his fiance
Scout and her partner
Eliza and her mother (which is not entirely fair since she "won her" however the 1 minute teaser with her mother was very heartfelt)

In watching this episode I noticed sharp editing in terms of Ami and Chrissy. I suspect their "reunion" probably did tug at major heart strings but the feeling of their reunion to me was more about their end result of kicking butt. I noticed upon their embracing and such, the cuts were very distinctive as if that part of the reunion was not what Mark Burnett wanted the audience to see since we are not meant to feel touched by Ami
Scout and Annie appeared to be very loving with their embracing with Annie expressing how great she looked and Scout's later discussion of how seeing her made her feel. The buildup to her sitting down at the terminal was also poignant in contrast to Ami's, Leann's, Julie's

Chris obviously we had a lot of focus on in terms of his feeling helpless and defeated. We were meant to feel for both of them and how upset she was for not winning the IC for him. The talk of the marriage and their embrace made quite a few "feel" for them

Twilla I certainly do not have to even explain; hers was probably the most heartfelt for all the reasons I don't need to post.

Eliza's cry of "Mommy" and her tears at the terminal certainly warmed me more than I ever felt towards Eliza. Interestingly enough we had new insight as to why Eliza may be why she acts the way she does. She is obviously very protected by her family "their baby" Her mother "Be nice to my Lizzey ou there" Eliza has always been taken care of; her mother was worried about flossing? The irony is that instead of that making me dislike Eliza MORE, it actually made me more tolerant of her. We cannot always help how we are. Eliza is not a bad person; she is simply annoying. She seems to know this as well

By contrast, Leann's visit, while sweet, was full of light and fun. Julie's was playful and flirtatious and Ami's was miss you baby but let's win this challenge. Could we possibly have given more if there were more for us from these people?

If we are to determine anything from this, then Leann having went is soon followed by Ami (this was told) and then Julie

Now onto what I see in all this mess posted above

Balance The irony of all this is balance and that looming theme along with other biggies! Usually our final challenge for the last two positions are a balancing one for endurance purposes. This is such irony isn't it? Could either Scout or Chris be that winner? The two people who lack physical balance? Chris would certainly elicit smiles from the audience who delves into this show if he were to win the one challenge he failed miserably at only to show that "outbalancing" is part of this game

The Players Chances based on Editing?

Chris-His words last week? "Dougherty is going to win immunity, this is not a prediction; that's a fact." and Ami "I just hope he doesn't win IC next couple of times; that would be really bad" could be our foreshadowing for THIS week. Does he really need it? Not entirely but it would certainly play out nicely considering what was spoken last episode.

What bothers me with Chris is for him to make the final two with that many women still out there is a tough sell for me; coupled with I'm sorry I didn't win to his fiance makes me wonder if he just misses the boat along with his men I can manipulate....... I would love to see him beat these odds but he has fulfilled these references and could leave before the final two or lose the game. I do still waver with the male/female situation and the culture. Do we have final male domination or does a woman usurp that culture

Julie Chris's confidante that was solidified to us. While I know many are thinking she is potentially more than just someone who was smart enough to use what she had to and got a wee bit further, I mentioned when Chris declared about hersneaking into the final five that this was a strange statement as final four is usually the reference (Note how we managed to FINALLY start hearing final four talk within the last couple of shows) I'm going to go out on the proverbial limb and guess that this was not let in by accident. Julie leaving fifth fits that prophecy nicely and that statement has always "irked" me. That is what we like to do in here so I'll stand by that

Eliza Our little annoying buddy has really gained a lot of you out there questioning whether she is final two. Would it not be prophetic for her and Scout to battle it out in the last duel. It certainly would and certainly would fit nicely with the way we look at the editing. Perhaps I am making a mistake in my view of Eliza in that her edit doesn't speak to me that way. She certainly is narrator material and good character and may be viewed by others as great final two opposition but I'm not entirely sure all of them are viewing what they want as final two that way. Her others conspire against me talks but they get booted off doesn't sit right with me and her Scout and Twilla could be lying to both of us could be interesting foreshadow that possibly both Chris AND Eliza do, in fact, get the screws put to them by Twilla and Scout

Now we know that not everything is wonderful in Twilla and Scout's duo and THAT was not shown on the show. Frankly with the way Twilla delivers some of her "messages" it almost sounds like she is being fed her lines from Scout. I know people think Twilla has game but does she? Twilla's persona has been fraught with paranoia and indecision throughout despite the fact she appears to be the mouthpiece in trying to turn things around. Her words of being forgiven if she wins a million dollars has been discussed now as "the quote" I don't necessarily look at that as the money making quote I question if that was really the dooming quote

Scout I have to admit that while I'm not necessarily enjoying her as I had earlier, I continue to think (as stated so many posts ago lol) that she embodies so much of what this season is about. Interesting to note that once I liked her immensely, the bloom is wearing off a bit but I suspect that her harmonious outlook can hardly be shown anymore with everyone having to slit each other's throat. We are told by her in confessionals her reasons though and they appear valid She attempted to keep balance and harmony BUT we know Scout gets rid of those and that which impedes her harmony. The woman who stumbled in the darkness the first night, the woman who realistically should have been the first to go....Oh and her quote: Scout: "Vengenance is mine; sayeth the jury" OUCH! Final two perhaps telling us that her "jury" will seek vengenance?

Apologies again for the longevity but the meat is really there if you look hard enough lol

At this point with the editing and characters and the building since the beginning, obviously the Ami situation leaked in here but her prophecy of second to a man is, in fact, a quote we were able to bank on and I believe that if you find the right quotes they do pay off especially if they are suspicious. I have been and continued to be suspicious of the mention of five, fifth; it has bothered me for a long time.

Chris's “It’s interesting to have a pretty girl playing the game cuz somebody like that can fly under the radar and sweet talk their way into the final five and then you know, Boom! Next thing you know, they’re sitting there waiting to win the money just stands out as prophetic to me. I am curious to see if this does, indeed, pay off to us with Julie indeed sneaking into final five and then her day of same is done


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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... toddE 11-30-04 1
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Seraphaem 11-30-04 2
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Brownroach 11-30-04 3
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... redbeard103152 11-30-04 5
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Brownroach 11-30-04 6
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Loquatrix 11-30-04 11
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... skeetergirl87 12-02-04 26
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... pinchy 11-30-04 4
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... RyrieRae 11-30-04 8
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... emydi 11-30-04 7
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... pinchy 11-30-04 10
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Loquatrix 11-30-04 12
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... TeamJoisey 11-30-04 14
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... katethegreat 12-01-04 17
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... oncebitten 12-01-04 19
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Brownroach 12-01-04 18
               Chris and the F2 FesterFan1 12-03-04 47
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Jims02 11-30-04 9
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... RyrieRae 11-30-04 13
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-01-04 15
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... pinchy 12-01-04 16
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-01-04 20
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Loquatrix 12-01-04 21
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Nashter 12-01-04 22
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Brownroach 12-02-04 25
                       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... PepeLePew13 12-03-04 35
                           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Brownroach 12-03-04 37
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... DRONES 12-02-04 23
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-02-04 24
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... IslandFever 12-02-04 27
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... KObrien_fan 12-03-04 28
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-03-04 29
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... KObrien_fan 12-03-04 30
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... ohmyheck 12-03-04 31
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Brownroach 12-03-04 34
                   Maybe Ami was right TeamJoisey 12-03-04 36
                       RE: Maybe Ami was right pmspml5 12-03-04 38
                       RE: Maybe Ami was right Brownroach 12-03-04 39
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... RyrieRae 12-03-04 32
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... badger 12-03-04 40
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... zazzy 12-03-04 43
   Back in Episode 6.... Brownroach 12-03-04 33
       RE: Back in Episode 6.... emydi 12-03-04 42
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Jims02 12-03-04 41
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-03-04 44
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... emydi 12-03-04 46
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-03-04 45
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-04-04 48
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-04-04 49
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-04-04 50
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-04-04 51
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-05-04 54
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Jims02 12-04-04 52
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Loquatrix 12-05-04 61
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... Jims02 12-05-04 63
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-05-04 64
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... redbeard103152 12-05-04 65
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... DRONES 12-06-04 73
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... applejack93 12-05-04 53
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... KObrien_fan 12-05-04 55
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... PepeLePew13 12-05-04 57
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... KObrien_fan 12-05-04 58
               Eliza = Amber PepeLePew13 12-05-04 59
                   RE: Eliza = Amber applejack93 12-05-04 66
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... KObrien_fan 12-06-04 70
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... braveheart 12-05-04 56
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... divawife 12-05-04 60
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-05-04 62
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-05-04 67
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... applejack93 12-05-04 68
                   Eliza = Jenna M? Jims02 12-05-04 69
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... DRONES 12-06-04 71
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-06-04 72
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... DRONES 12-06-04 74
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-06-04 75
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-06-04 76
               Chris' shower comment aethelstan 12-06-04 77
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-06-04 78
                   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... pinchy 12-07-04 80
 RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... applejack93 12-07-04 79
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... DRONES 12-07-04 81
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... VerucaSalt 12-08-04 82
           RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-09-04 83
               RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... kingfish 12-09-04 84
   RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... JackieHollow 12-09-04 85
       RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Ga... applejack93 12-11-04 86

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toddE 1433 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 11:56 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Hi, I don't have any specific examples, but I felt the most recent episode really points toward Chris winning. He was portrayed as such an underdog and such a good guy. None of the women got such favorable editing, and it really made me think that Chris is being set up to win.


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Seraphaem 66 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 12:02 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Your summary was brilliant, Veruca! You never cease to amaze me. This is why I enjoy visiting.

Seraphaem

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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 01:11 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 11-30-04 AT 01:13 PM (EST)

None of the women got such favorable editing, and it really made me think that Chris is being set up to win.

I don't think he is going to win. Some of the editing is only relevant to the episode at hand, after all -- I'm sure MB doesn't go through and make sure every confessional quote portends the outcome of that player's game in some way.

Chris's edit looked sympathetic because he was the last man standing, he knew he needed immunity, then failed to win it. His statement that he would win immunity I think was included for the purpose of the events of this episode, though as VS said, he may win next time, but I doubt it has any significance beyond that.

I agree with VS that it's very hard to see how Chris is going to outlast four more women to get to the Final 2. By a stroke of luck (nothing of his own doing) the target was changed to Eliza at the last minute, and then by another stroke of luck (again nothing he initiated) Chris fell into a plan that can get him more than three more days in Vanuatu. It seems pretty clear that he's still at the mercy of the women, even if he is temporarily allied with some of them.



Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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redbeard103152 466 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 01:45 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I still have to disagree with you Brownroach. I think by outing Twila and Scout immediately after returning from the TC, Chris planted the seed that ultimately lead to Twila and Scout voting with him to oust Leann. To avoid the wrath of Ami and Leann they were forced to try to get rid one or the other of them whomever didn't win the IC. The major two person alliance had to be broken when we had an odd number of contestants so a tie could not occur. Now if Chris is playing as good of a game as I think he is he should try to get rid of Ami next. With the remaining people left he shouldn't have any trouble doing this as there is no love lost among most of them and Ami. Next he should work on the second major two player alliance that of Twila and Scout. To do this he will have to use Julie and Eliza.I admit it will not be easy for Chris to accomplish his task of winning this game but after the way he began this game did anyone forsee him lasting longer than any of the other men?RedBeard

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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 02:25 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Chris planted the seed that ultimately lead to Twila and Scout voting with him to oust Leann.

They didn't vote with him, he accepted their invitation to vote with them. When Twila was talking to Chris, it was pretty obvious that it had never occurred to him that he might be in a position to do something. He planned to vote for Eliza and just hopefully muddle through until the next time.

By outing Scout and Twila, Chris was trying to stir up trouble, but he didn't follow through with any strategy to improve his situation. So yes, technically that planted the seed that got Scout and Twila p.o.ed at Leann but Chris wasn't prepared to capitalize on it.

And once again he failed to see that Eliza, as a target, would be a good ally; Twila had to shove it in his face. I don't think he's playing great.

If Chris doesn't go this week he should be able to make it to Final 4, but I kind of think that will be the end of the line for him.



Bridge for sale to highest bidder. Call 1-800-BRroach.

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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 06:56 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Hmm.

I think Chris is playing a smarter game at this point than you're giving him credit for, BR. Or perhaps I'm biased because he's my fave. ;) But in any event, I came away from the Chris/Twila exchange thinking, "Chris is playing his cards close to his chest - he doesn't want any of the women worrying that he is anything other than existing purely at their whim at the moment."

He named Scout as the first person he thought Twila might be referring to, when she started prodding him to act. This was sensible, I thought, because he knows Twila is allied with Scout and he wants them to be reassured that Chris knows his future in the game depends on his remaining in favour with them. And since he had ratted Scout and Twila out to Ami and Leann, he needed to get back in their good graces rather than make it quite plain that he was gaming away merrily behind their backs. He was flattering them both by indicating that he thought talking to either of them was his key to the game.

It would be dangerous and ill advised for him to respond to Twila by admitting something like, "Oh yeah, obviously I'm going to go and get hooked up with someone completely other than you two." That would be totally dim. Far more sensible to let Twila go away reporting back to Scout that Chris wasn't scheming against either of them or, in fact, scheming in any way at all - and in fact that Chris basically stated that he knows his only hope lies with Scout and Twila! No indeed, it is MUCH better to let Scout and Twila think of him as a pawn who can be directed, rather than someone who is thinking for himself and ready to turn the game upside down WITHOUT their knowledge or input or say-so.

Like I said, I'm quite happy to be accused of simple bias on this one, though. ::grin::

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skeetergirl87 136 desperate attention whore postings
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12-02-04, 11:33 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I agree with you. I think that Chris is smart enough to not be seen as a leader or master strategist. He let Sarge seem like the leader of the Fat 5(and get targeted first), though I still think it was him ultimately making the decisions. I think Chris knows when to play dumb and let others lead him to where he wants them to go while he remains in the background. I really admire the game he is playing so far and hope he really is pulling the strings in the background instead of just stumbling into situations that favor him.
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pinchy 200 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 01:19 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I think we may have been given a final 2 foreshadowing back when the two tribes were scrambled (can't recall which ep.)... Chris said, "i have made final 2 alliances with everyone except Twila." When does a final 2 alliance work out if there's no pagonging? We're seeing that all final 2 alliances except Scout/Twila and Chris/Julie are not working out. The Chris/Julie F2 alliance break-up will likely be featured as well as the Scout/Twila breakup- makes good drama.
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RyrieRae 416 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 02:49 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
"...it's very hard to see how Chris will outlast four more women to get all the way to the final 2"

I disagree. Chris is in a real good place right now. With 6 left, there are three solid "two-some" alliances. Julie/Ami, Twila/Scout, and by default Chris/Eliza. Eliza knows her place in the game, and Chris is her only chance, because she knows that Chris is in the same boat she is, and that is the "RMS We ain't got no one."

Fortuantely for Chris and Eliza, they have won the voting power of Twila and Scout, and if all goes according to plan, this will take them all to the final 4. At this point, you'll see two strong couples: Twila/Scout and Chris/Eliza, and each one is just as likely to come out on top as the next. I don't see Eliza OR Chris jumping ship in the final four TC, because either knows that they will be dropped at three if they vote with Twila/Scout. Twila is the only one I can see bailing on her partner and voting with the other side, because 1) she dreads the purple rock and 2) she has some strategy planning going on with Chris.

So let me reiterate, I think Chris is in a VERY good place to make it to the final 2.

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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7. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Great analysis VS!!!

I told FP after last week's ep. that I am so perplexed by the editing of Julie and Twila...

I don't think Twila has game...she just is closer to Chris than Scout is bc she spent more time with him...that's why she was the one (and not Scout) to tell Chris to go see Eliza...Twila and Scout could not because of their "history" with her. I don't think she ultimately made the decision to oust L/A as I think she is a very indecisive person as shown throughout the show. My being perplexed was caused by EPMB's edit of Twila in Ep. 11. She was "seen" as having game and being the "game changer". I don't buy it... it was just a hiccup....she'll go back to being indecisive this week.

My prediction--I believe Twila goes at F5 when Chris/Eliza/Julie team up..she could make it to F4 but that's about as far as I see her going.

Now Julie...I've concluded edit wise she is just Darrah plain and simple...she must not say a thing that is interesting or she would be getting more air time like Heidi/Jenna in Amazon...she is the beauty of the show...We've been talking about her not having a story since the tribes swapped...she still doesn't.

The only explanation I could have for the F5 comment made by Chris about Julie is that he made it when it was supposed to be 4 guys and Twila/Julie...Chris thought at that time the Flab 5 minus Bubba would be the F4...whether EPMB added this because Julie ultimately came in 5th...I'm not sure..she goes though either at F5 or F4 (with Twila going in the other spot)

Now Chris...I was disappointed in him in Ep. 11...Hello, McFly...its ELIZA...it was akin to the change in editing of Twila except he turned from ROB C-like to Matteo-like. Whether this was just a hiccup, to make Twila look better, I'm not sure. But, VS, I like his chances of winning this thing a lot more than you and BR do. Chris really does have to just sit back and let the women fight amongst themselves. He can use his confidant Julie and now Eliza owes him...I think that's what occurs at F5 after Ami is gone this week.

As for Scout...she's pretty safe as a non immunity threat for a while...her JURY quote was quite interesting...but her ability to win F3 is very slim and I don't see anyone taking her to F2, she's more liked than Mama Kim and Lil...



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pinchy 200 desperate attention whore postings
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11-30-04, 03:05 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Editing... that conversation that looks SO crucial: Twila, pointing out to Chris the importance of Eliza... I actually think that Chris was baiting Twila to give him the clue, and make her think it was her idea. Yes, she thought of it, but I can't imagine that Chris didn't think of it also... It's not the first time that Chris has acted and played dumb to keep himself in the game.
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11-30-04, 07:23 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Completely agree, pinchy. As I comment in my post number 11 above, Chris' apparent lack of awareness as to what to do next was not stupidity on his part but the best strategy for the circumstances.

To reveal that he has "game" other than any lifelines thrown to him by other players would only have put his head squarely back on the chopping block. Playing dumb and letting Twila "feed" him the information was by far the best choice for him at this crucial moment in the game.

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14. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
If it means anything, I agree with you both.

Chris knew the alliance Twila was trying to build. He's the one who commiserated with Eliza when she was the first female eliminated in the chopping block challenge. By playing dumb, he's hoping the others fail to see that he's playing the game.

That's a Richard Hatch strategy: Allow the other members of your alliance to suggest the ideas you planted in their heads. You get what you want, and they think they've got control.

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17. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Add my agreement - I think Chris is looking good for final two. I immediately recalled his quote, when he voted for Sarge, something like, "Sorry, Sarge. Gotta do this for now but I'm gonna burn all those b******". Also, from an "average" viewer, my husband was PUMPED at the turn of events. So Chris is looking sympathetic to him.

I'm thinking Chris and Eliza for final two. Not that I'm ever actually right about this stuff!

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19. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I have to agree also. MB showed us Chris' vote for a reason. If it didn't have some meaning behind it, MB would not have shown it to us and made us wonder who voted for whom (like he always does to hide the suprise).
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18. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
To reveal that he has "game" other than any lifelines thrown to him by other players would only have put his head squarely back on the chopping block.

I agree that is true, or that it would be true if he actually had "game". But either way, it's a problem and it renders him pretty ineffectual. He's being used and will never have the opportunity of getting in the driver's seat to get to F2.

Anyway, I didn't intend to hijack this into a speculation thread, since it's about the editing. So I'll just say that to me Chris's editing is that of someone who was cocky and boastful at the beginning, turned out to be a not-so-great strategist, is now fighting for his life, and will end up a loser just like all the rest of the men.


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47. "Chris and the F2"
I think Chris is in the absolute best position to make the F2 of the 5 remaining players. Once Scout and Twila made their move to take out Leann, Ami, and Julie, everyone forgot Chris was even there. I don't think they're 'using' him in the sense that they're just stringing him along looking for a spot to dump him. They need him at this point, as do Eliza and Julie. He's got the right idea. Get out of the way and let the remaining women fight it out. They'll be so busy taking each other out, or plotting to take each other out, it'll be the F3, and Chris will still be there.

The boot pattern in this game is very similar to the first British Survivor. In that one, the dominant tribe was up 6-4 at the merge. They Pagonged 3 of the 4 from the disadvantaged tribe in succession. Then a few of them got the idea of taking out the biggest remaining challenge threat. Then an alliance of 2 grabbed the remaining player from the Pagonged tribe, staged a tie at 6 and won the tiebreak (they used prior votes), gained the advantage, and mini-Pagonged the other 2. Next thing you know, the player presumed to be dead (and the 3rd jury member) is in the F3, wins the F3 IC, and eventually the game...unanimously, because she didn't piss anyone off in the process.

Now I don't think Chris would score all 7 votes, but he's in a great position to win this thing. And I don't think the other four realize that...yet.

Fester

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9. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I think Eliza's edit is interesting.

She has consistently been the cockroach of the island, kind of like Rory. People are constantly trying to vote her out, but she always finds some way to stay.

There is also the perception that she can be easily beaten in the jury. This may be true. However, her edit isn't nearly as negative as other possible F2 losers in my opinion. MamaKim, Neleh, Clay, Matthew, and Lil were all given a negative/wishywashy edit at some point.

Perhaps Eliza comes off better recently, since she fought back against Ami and Leann... Is Eliza, like Chris, getting an Underdog-like edit?


Check out Jims' Random Thoughts. Some pretty deep stuff.

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13. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I too have been intrigued by Eliza's edit since, or around day one. They constantly show us how everyone at camp feels about her and how close she comes to being voted out. Yet, as the viewer, I can't find any good reason to hate her. In fact, I find her rather cute, in that yippy, puppy dog kind of way.

Could it be that she makes final two, and because of her edit, we expect her to lose? But then we are shocked that she pulls out a win. I certainly wouldn't hate to see her win. Maybe this is their method in her edit.

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15. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"

Seraphaem, thank you kindly and please join in as your posts in these parts regarding the constellations is made for this thread


The Chris Debate Ah we have many Chris fans around here and well you should be If not for anything else, he should have been gone in episode one. Luckily for him he had a solid alliance that turned the tides of younger NOT always showcasing their way through this show. A huge theme this season. He also managed to (at the very least) be the last man standing in a sea of women and these women ARE NOT piggy backers. Each woman left has definitely in some form or fashion made great strides to get where they are. I truly can say they all have merit in at least "playing the game" which may be why there has been so much debate as to the final two. Each in their own way could and should be.

I still have a hard time in terms of numbers seeing how Chris can succeed completely though of course it is not impossible. At this point I think it may be safe to assume that he was the third man perhaps that Scout alluded to in wanting to play the game with so his staying should be credited to the women and himself. Another man may not have had the skills to utilize the position the women gave him. Did they make a mistake? Quite possibly since, to Chris's credit, grasped that opportunity they gave him and yes, manipulated them in feeling good about their choice to the point of even sacrificing WOMEN for him.

Whether his comments on being able to manipulate men and not women means that he fulfilled this by being the only man left OR proving himself wrong by showing how he can, indeed, manipulate women remains to be seen.

We all get clouded in our perceptions based upon our likes/dislikes of people which is why in here we do our best to look solely at how Mark Burnett is manipulating his contestants. He does his job well as there are many who "feel" for Twilla, who are "impressed" with Chris, who "can't stand" Ami and so forth. I suspect that Ami is not as condescending or Twilla that sympathetic or Chris that brilliant and Eliza that annoying. We are led down a path to create conversation and to cheer and boo our favorites.

The Chris debate is tempered by like/dislike. What one observes in a conversation is looked upon differently than someone else as discussed above. This doesn't necessarily mean either are wrong OR either are right. This means that Mark Burnett and his editing team are accomplishing their goal; creating reaction and creating opinions so we can cheer or boo those who reach the end.

Ironically it was Ami who stated "....people will get themselves voted out This is coming to fruition and unfortunately in her case, pans out. Chris is utilizing this by allowing these women to do this while he intelligently sits by and allows it. In THAT sense, he knows the right thing to do and does have his pulse on women. In another sense, however, some of Chris's advancement had NOTHING to do with him so while the opinions differ on whether his advancement is brilliant strategy or handed opportunity essentially could be both. Either way, it was designed it seems for us to like him which is what Mark Burnett wanted since he lasts far into the game.

Whether this is sufficient for a final two spot, it is hard to say.


A long time ago and an editing thread so far away we discussed, man vs. woman, elder vs. younger, harmony and balance, sacrifice, peace and war and the methods and means to encompass all of them and who is there to be shown as a story, shown as a player and/or shown to reflect something a little more. Many of you have taken these themes to new levels, where do they sit with you now?

I have already committed myself to Julie going next. The game she did play but there has been nothing else there. And remember what I said after the first week, the Amazon has NO PLACE in Vanuatua This coupled with lack of embellishment at family reward, the potentialy prophetic "fifth" comment and the major developments of every other person there signifies to me, at least, her day (or bottom) in the sun is over. Since the strongest were always targeted sooner than later, Ami would be the choice to go first before her.

Remaining Thereafter

Twilla the most deep story there was this season. What a character she is and what Mark Burnett gave us. I watch her and get feelings of those like Kathy or Rupert (though many disliked him I blame that more on the show and the overexposure they did on him) We laughed with them, they annoyed us sometime, we cried with them and we ROOTED for them. True underdogs in terms of either where they were in the game (Kathy was not always a favorable edit and was disliked by her tribe for being overbearing then suddenly emerged as someone the audience loved and especially because of her position in the game to beat certain odds) or how they were presented to us (Twilla the downtrodden single mother; Rupert the fat unpopular insecure child) I "fear" with this edit as earlier stated, that while we root for her, the audience will get the same outcome as the earlier castaways I mention. I could be completely wrong but this is what her editing at least suggests to me.

Eliza The wild child. The annoying little sister. The narrator of the young and always in opposition to the narrator of the old. Causing disruption and disharmony yet chugs along, swings with the wind. She played this game rather well and while no backstory, she OFFERED to tell us the game's story. Where she goes, I don't know but I would like to see this episode on how she is edited with yet this new swing around she did. She strikes me more as the "shoot, I was this close" type of edit though I know many think she could be final two.

ChrisThere is plenty of juicy material for him to be final two; I just don't like his odds on paper. I already spoke of him in length and I am concerned greatly about some of the items I mentioned early

Scout After week one or two, I maintained she and/or Ami were final two material with me. Wouldn't it be nice for that to pan out since sadly Rory and Chad did not work lol. Scout has shown incredible narration. Chief in a male dominated society, narrator of all that is Mother Earth and for so long, not once was edited (except of course by Eliza as someone who everyone felt should go despite the fact she was physically lame and a detriment to group immunity. The women loved Scout, Rory even had the highest respect for her. She oozed peace and tranquility and only recently did we see some change in her persona. She certainly, IMO, did not suffer that older woman edit usually shown, she, IMO did NOT find someone to just ride along with. She was active in maintaining her surroundings as she wanted it. Recall her derision in that method in her voting Leann: Leann, you made an alliance with me at the beginning of the game and you’ve broken it. I like the hell out of ya, but next time, hook your wagon to your own star instead of somebody else’s.

Scout I have just seen long term from early on; she may not necessarily be popular but then again there have been worse in the past. However, if she is the final two, only Eliza and Chris though could be her opponent frankly based on the different thematic approaches as well as the stories within the story.

Great thoughts everyone, keep it up. We still have a way to go and we can discuss my upcoming New Year Resolution to shorten the length of my verbiage

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pinchy 200 desperate attention whore postings
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12-01-04, 01:29 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
an analysis of Chris's likability: I've "liked" Chris since before the first episode aired. For some reason, his face stood out to me as a winner. I actually was disappointed in some of the stuff that came out about him in the first two episodes, especially his giving up on the balance beam. This did not mean that I changed my mind about his winning, it only meant that I started looking at him as a Brian Heidik character instead of a Lex. I think the edits are doing a good job of redeeming Chris more than they did Brian (they really didn't have much to work with there). And they also are not showing him to be as emotional as Lex. The "Chris hater" characters were highlighted in the earlier episodes. Notice that nothing much was said of Chad's (or Sarge's) being hung out to dry. why did the women keep him around is the big question that will be asked when he finally wins it ;) Yes, Scout was a big factor, but she had to have agreement- I think he must be a truly lkiable down to earth guy for Ami to have let him stay for so long.
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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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20. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-01-04 AT 08:11 PM (EST)

I think there is some sort of low level subliminal type hypnosis going on with these posts, it seems that the longer they are the more I enjoy them. My guess, you are either an extremely successful ad-person, a psychiatrist, or a side show performer (don't respond to this, this is just rhetorical guessing for my own amusement, not a request for personal info.) And its catching. Cause I suspect this could be reduced to "Whatt she said." or even "Me too."

To business, and focusing on Eliza:

One point - I believe Eliza is as annoying as shown, even if she may have some redeeming qualities. Spoiled rich kid, sharp as a tack but with some need for a maturing influence (The Island?). Whether she goes for the pig in the mud (in the next mud pit pig chase) may indicate whether she grows up (in fact and in editing) on the island, and serve to redeem her in the audience eyes. Which would then set her up in the audience eyes for final 2? I suppose that’s possible, given that she is a viable candidate for the final Endurance immunity, and that any of the others just might like their chances sitting next to her. The survivors feelings toward Eliza wouldn’t subject to the MB editing, they may all think of her as basically annoying and relatively easy to compete against at F2.

Of the five (excluding Ami who should be out after tomorrow) only Eliza and Julie may need image modification/softening in MB’s imagination of what the audience likes if she is actually to go to F2. And Julie's lack of personalization probably makes it unlikely that MB is expending any effort on her. Unfortunately for her, is easy to guess why.

I think, in general, and noting that there can be successful (for his purposes) exceptions, his F2 of choice for ratings) has to be two survivors, each about equal in audience sympathy value in order to draw the maximum number of viewers. He can’t always get this because he doesn’t actually control the voting, and this F2 preference isn’t in the interests of the survivors who actually vote. J Fair was a notable and I’m sure a welcome exception, he was so bad I expect he added to the ratings.

Scout is getting somewhat down played in terms of being a good person, but a more real and smart person (I personally like this change, it shows, finally, a contrast to the Survivor image of the old chick as clueless, bumbling, and even just stupid– no offense to anyone, just thinking of Lil, Jan, et al. Scout single handedly redeemed older ladies image, even without a bit of athletic resource. Good for her.) She has a good F2 image already.

Twilla is getting a better Edit. Vastly improved, I think. (Again, I have admiration for this evolving image of her, as you and I feel other audience members have.) But the Kingfish Prophesy has her losing as a result of a tie and the “Frigging Purple Rock”. I know, that’s improbable tomorrow or at F4. Still, it has a ring to it. Seriously she also has a good F2 image already.

Julie – Pretty but little audience sympathy value. She may even be somewhat negative among women viewers, and if the percentage of F to M avid viewers in the audience is roughly equal to the percentage on these boards, (again no offense), this wouldn’t be MB's idea of good editing for someone going to F2.

Chris- pretty good editing, also F2 quality.

Upshot, I believe (and I know I'm echoing your comment about Eliza) that after we see the episode tomorrow and F5 (F5 involves the pig in the mud Challenge, I presume), and Ami and Julie go as planned, that the editing for Eliza will presage her appearance at F2, if she gets an image softening edit. If not, the F2 will be between Chris, Scout, and Twila and Eliza would be the F4 boot. Although this makes sense, part of me is recoiling at her not winning at F4 or F3. But Twila is a surprising competitor, so who knows.

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12-01-04, 10:49 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-01-04 AT 10:49 PM (EST)

I believe Eliza is as annoying as shown

Oh, and then some! Remember what her mother said when Eliza laughingly complained, "Do you know why they wanted to get rid of me? Because I talk too much!!" and her mother laughed along and said, "What, you're too annoying?" A mother doesn't refer to her own child as "annoying" unless it's a running joke in the family, so much so that it's almost a term of endearment.

I believe Eliza is getting a very honest edit. I believe she really is the harmless, well meaning, good natured, loyal, naive yappy puppy we're seeing. It's a winning edit, and I don't mean that necessarily in the literal sense that she's being given THE winner's edit. I just mean that we're being shown someone who, despite being referred to as "annoying," is fundamentally a sweet chick who just needs to grow into herself a bit.

Thus I agree with Kingfish that we're being shown personal growth in Eliza - a very positive kind of edit to receive. And I believe Eliza will continue this trend both realistically and within herself, and in terms of how she's edited in the closing stages of the game. With her new alliance with Chris, perhaps he is just the mentor-type character she needs to really help her find her way.

Unlike Kingfish, though, I don't feel so positive towards Twila's editing as an F2 prospect. I think we're gearing up for Twila to go next, after Ami. Her story is going to peak this week - she's going to win either immunity or reward - and then she's done because we've seen her whole spectrum as a player. Until recently, we'd seen a lot of Twila dithering and appearing to be someone who was just swept along with whatever wind happened to be prevailing at the time. Last week, we saw an emergence of Twila The Player- but we weren't shown her playing the game in a "positive" way. We saw her lie straight-faced to Ami and Leann, and even swear on her son's life (which I know is Serious Shiznit to a lot of people). With her immunity win on the totem pole, and her impatient direction of Chris as to how to "change the outlook," I can't help but feel her story has been rounded out. He has certainly changed the outlook - but in his own favour, not Twila's.

(Edited to fix html)

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Nashter 35 desperate attention whore postings
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12-01-04, 11:03 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I think Chris is getting the winner's edit and Eliza is his number 2. (to quote Sera)
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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
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12-02-04, 10:31 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Eliza laughingly complained, "Do you know why they wanted to get rid of me? Because I talk too much!!" and her mother laughed along and said, "What, you're too annoying?"

Not that it matters, and I've seen other sites quote it as you did, but I thought what her mother actually said was, "Oh, you were jawing, huh?"

(Main Entry: jaw
Function: verb
intransitive senses : to talk especially abusively, indignantly, or long-windedly)


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35. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
The closed-captioning showed it as "annoying", FWIW.

I went back and doublechecked, and that's what it showed. Could it be the Noo Yawk/Long Island accent that threw the captionist and half of America off?



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Brownroach 15341 desperate attention whore postings
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37. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Could it be the Noo Yawk/Long Island accent that threw the captionist and half of America off?

LOL, I wouldn't be surprised. It's also not a term anyone uses much now, at least I haven't heard it recently, so the captionist may have been oblivious to its existence. I don't have the show on tape but I was pretty sure that's what she said.


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23. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I posted this originally in the post merg thread on the 29th of November but decided to bring it over here.

--From Nov. 29--
Ami and Leann made the fatal flaw of arrogance. I'm not so certain that either Ami or Leann were in charge as it was a co-leadership. Their discussion with Scout sealed Leann's fate. IMO, it was Scout who told Twilla to go to Chris about using Eliza, and that it wasn't Twilla's idea alone. Ami from the clips has not learned any lesson. Her quote to Twilla about still being in the game shows that she is going to be defiant to the end.

I know there are some who believe Twilla coming to Chris about Eliza saved him but that was not the case. Chris, after coming back from TC stirred the pot by ratting out Twilla and Scout. He then sat back and let the paranoia set it in. This move completely took Ami out of her game. The misdirection worked, because by the end of the episode Chris was not longer the target but Eliza. Chris should be safe this episode as the women stay focused on one another. Chris doesn't have to vigorously stir the pot any more, but instead just gently turn it once in a while. He should be safe until the final 4 but with this group, you never know. He would be smart to win a IC or two to ensure his place in the final 4 as this group is prone to violent changes in direction.

Twilla and Scout, to their credit, saw the writing on the wall after they were confronted by Ami and Leann. Niether one of them were ever in danger this episode. I'm very surprised that Ami never seriously considered Scout a threat. Ami may have been sympathetic towards Scout, since they were both lesbians.

Julie, as has been pointed out by others, is on the wrong side of the alliance and no one really trusts her.

It was funny to watch the reaction of Sarge and Chad at TC when Chris was not voted out.

Add ons for today:

There seems to be mixed reaction with Chris. BR and VS give some valid reasons as to why he won't make it to the F2. Chris is in a very bad position being the last man. He is going to be an ever present reminder to them that they did not complete their all female finale 6 or whatever and Ami is not going to let them forget as long as she's there.

Editing and key quotes put Chris into the F4. From there all bets are off. I just can't help but believe that he wins this RC/IC to fullfill Ami's quote about him winning immunity to screw over there plan of choosing Eliza instead of him. I also believe that he's the most serious IC threat after Ami.

He is going to narrowly beat Ami and fullfill her quote from E1 about being second to a man. VS has convinced me that 5th is the spot for Julie. I've believed for the last couple of episodes that Julie is out of place. She is the last Amazon hold out.


DRONES

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24. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-02-04 AT 06:59 PM (EST)

DRONES, Loquatrix , kingfish very thought provoking posts and while my intention was to address all of it; I hit the wrong key and the post disappeared.

My attempts at recreating it to specifically address each of your thoughts are not as concise so forgive my generalizations

kingfish - side show worker (wink)

I do wish to comment on my thoughts on Julie. My approach to this show has always been and will continue to be about the editing and the characters. As many of you know, since I often mention this, I often find it very dangerous to speculate on the show based on information (credible or not) as (to me) it ends up slanting how one sees the show and I often use the term to "fit the spoilers" This is why I usually maintain that I create these threads for the long term result as opposed to weekly boots anyway

We cannot possibly know if a contestant makes such a bad "gaff" that it causes them to be booted when the intention was another person. My dissections are based on what we have seen thus far and therefore where it may be going. Julie as of right now in terms of story, quotes, development (to me) would be the next boot and I will stand firm as her edit deems it that way to me personally and usually I surmise who is in danger very early on after the preceding show coupled with prior thoughts of danger, etc.

This does not mean that something won't occur TONIGHT to change that but we can't possibly know this. Tomorrow I may think differently but since I attempt to base those in danger in terms of the show itself rather than "information" I prefer to mention my victim sooner rather than later.

Twilla's danger element is present I had always maintained that she has a great story but once it "played out" there is nothing further. Twilla, IMO is NOT final two based on this solely though some feel her story speaks otherwise. I do not see this as she is shown to be as stated along the Kathy and Rupert lines. We "root" for the person but is their game playing enough? Twilla's constant "I'm in the middle" has reached levels of exhaustion. To me this signifies this will cost her the game Her quote: "You better not screw me" to Chris seems to show me that she will, indeed, have that happen to her and possibly/probably by Chris. Her editing does not favor a final two position for me.

Eliza is what she is Yes, indeed. My thoughts on the editing process however are that "she is what she is -- with the help of Mark Burnett's editing team"

Mark Burnett shares a portion of a person's character that is relevant to their success or demise or if good "character" Eliza is certainly an annoying little bugger but I'm quite sure she may have had very low key and less annoying moments. MB doesn't want us to see this because it is not relevant to what he wants to show of Eliza.

With the editing process, a notable change in character is where my suspicions get raised. Ami had a very palpable change and that is when I lessened her chances. In the same vein, there really has been no upswing for Julie at this point leading me to believe (along with the other thoughts previously mentioned)
that her end is coming up.

Eliza, Chris and Scout have been fairly consistent. With that I believe they could be the final three contenders. However, Scout and Chris seem to fit all my tabs and slots for how the stories of Vanuatu have played out so far and Scout has always been someone that I have kept my proverbial eye on. BUT as stated, I am wary of Chris's chances because of the current situation as it stands. Immunity and huge player mistakes though always play a part and we can't know this at this time.

Twilla, while a very colorful character just seems that she will leave because of all the indecision and waffling and defensive playing she has personified. Could she be next? Indeed it is very possible However as stated, on paper, based on how I view the show, Julie is the next boot and this will remain my opinion because that is the direction on how the show is playing out to me and her role in it.

There will be a lot to discuss after tonight and I will be curious to see how Twilla handles the aftermath of her role in taking down Ami; this is crucial in how the following boot may play out

Edited for spelling errors

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27. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
The editing of Chris reminds me of Will in BB2. Evil Dr. Will had lost his alliance and was always being put up for eviction but he sat back in the diary room and was thrilled that the alliances of the other houseguests were imploding, that they were targeting each other instead of him. And it looks like more drama between the women for next episode. I remember Chris saying when he voted for Sarge that he would screw over every last one of the women. And he will do it with a smile on his face. If Chris wins it will redeem a rather dull season. After this many Survivors it all gets a little old. What a good story line if Chris can pull it off. And if Eliza is #2 she will be a worthy opponent, not someone who sneaks into the F2 because of winning fallen comrades.
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28. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I only got to see the episode once, but it was chock full of quotes that were doozys and I'm sure VS and others will list them out here in a while. But here are my first impressions of the remaining 5 and their edit.

Twila- We got to see her harsh brutal side tonight which looks to continue into next episode. She is so focused on the final goal that she is forgetting the golden rule: You need to walk a fine line between voting strategy and not pissing the jurors off that you will want to eventually write you a million dollar check. Is Twila just trying to make herself the perfect F2 opponent with this? She certainly is NOT getting the Kathy edit, (evolving and then we all start to like her and then have her screwed at F3) right now she is looking more like Clay. Even if she gets to the F2, I don't think she could spin the jury with any kind of speech, unless of course she is sitting next to Scout.

Scout- We also got to see her harsh brutal side tonight as well. She was shown as embarrassed by her own physical ineptitude, jealous and catty, cocky and abrasive, and vindictive. Her editing took a dramatic turn tonight too. She as well as Twila has shown why she would be a perfect F2 candidate, and maybe that is what she was shooting for because she realizes she won't ever win an immunity against the others and otherwise she might have been viewed as too likeable by the jury. In either case, she at least has the wherewithal to make a good F2 jury arguement as to why they should vote for her, so for her it would come down to who her opponent was, and you can bet she really wants it to be Twila.

Julie- What editing? Was she on tonight or last week?

Eliza- Her editing took a dramatic turn to soften her, she is the little sister, she is emaciated, we should feel sorry for her because she has been on the block so many times. I think she is still F2 with Chris (and Chris had a quote while trying to convince Eliza to stay the course and vote for Ami- VS help me out here...), but the way Scout said a few episodes ago "I am going to burn Eliza" plus the way Twila (and Julie did you notice?) was giving Chris high fives during the IC, Chris will get the votes needed to win.

Chris- From the beginning of episode 1 I have thought that this guy was the winner, tonight has not changed that for me. From early on with the John Nash theory and the potential winning quote, this guy has slid through and is just a likeable guy. He has no heat on him anymore and can now sit back and watch the volcano's erupt around him. In fact, the ONLY active volcano that has been shown in all of the editing shots has been the Yasur volcano. A man should win in Vanuatu islands of fire, and Chris' edit is pointing to it more and more each week.


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29. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Yes KO there were so much going on that I will be quite busy later

However to help you out NOW, I recall the conversation to be something like

Chris "The final four and look at our competition, a 60 year old and Twilla; might as well write the checks now.......come on!"

Now whether this is foreshadowing or the dreaded kisses of death quotes remains to be seen.

I am going to dissect now but I am still maintaining Julie's demise as stated up up up there and despite the editing twist, I may still need to view Scout in the final BUT the quotes all, the quotes!!!

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30. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Yes, you are right, that could be the hubris kiss of death quote, but I don't think so in this case. Thanks for letting me know so quickly. I was enjoying the episode so much last night!


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31. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I'm not sure. In some ways, I feel like Chris is getting a Kathy in Marquesas edit. Started out he was almost voted out, or that's what the editing portrayed, and now he is liked and on the radar screen. I think VS is right. Chris will not win this game.
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34. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
The way things are developing, I still cannot see Chris getting to F2 unless he wins F3 immunity (if he manages to get from F4 to F3). With all the bickering that's coming up, he's going to be the one opponent you don't want to be up against.


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36. "Maybe Ami was right"
LAST EDITED ON 12-03-04 AT 12:23 PM (EST)

Perhaps Chris goes on an immunity run, and propels himself into the final two, where he chooses to sit next to the annoying motormouth who has been constantly targeted for elimination by her own alliance.

That would be a little irony.
Chris, who failed miserably in the first IC and cost his team a victory, looks horrible in all subsequent ICs. And then he wins the last four, or three of the last four, and wins the game.

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38. "RE: Maybe Ami was right"
Well he doesnt win next week - the previews clearly showing him mad and show Julie/Twila crossing the balance beam.
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39. "RE: Maybe Ami was right"
Well even if that did happen, which I doubt, he'd be a complete idiot to take Eliza to F2, when he's seen all the venom being spewed at Twila and Scout for disrupting the women's allaince.


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32. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I think the "write the checks" quote was tell-tale. When he said it, I threw my hands up and said "There it is! There's our final 2."

Chris is in a great position. He could actually just stop playing the game right this second and coast all the way to final 2 as the women devour themselves.

Eliza, I have been unsure of. Others speculated that she would be final 2 with Chris, but I had reservations. Her edit showed everyone hating her, and I thought "If she's in the final 2, they've made it obvious who wins." But last night the editing took a turn and we started to see Eliza "softened" as others have mentioned.

I've been waiting for a Chris win, but I'm starting to think Eliza stands a shot. Ami, as said on the early show, understands why she did what she did and really likes her. If Ami feels this way, leann and Julie probably feel the same way. So, in theory, let's go ahead and give her those votes.

So, this puts Scout and twila as swing votes. I'm pretty solid on guessing that Scout will vote for Chris. But Twila? I'm not so sure. Apparently Eliza calls her out about being a liar next episode. Often when people are held accountable for their actions, they find respect for the person calling them out, almost as a defense mechanism. This alone doesn't give me enough reason to believe that Twila might possibly vote for Eliza, but there are other factors. There is still plenty of time for Twila and chris to turn on each other.

If Twila telling Chris "You better not screw me over" will actually happen, this could push her over the edge and vote for Eliza. Also, If Chris, Twila, and Eliza are in the Final 3 and Chris wins immunity (I know, unlikely), and votes out Twila, she may vote for Eliza to win.

This would follow a familiar trend in Survivor. More times than not, the Final Immunity winner does not win Survivor: Kelly Wigglesworth, Colby, Mama Kim, Neeleh, Lil, and RobM. I believe this is because the final Immunity Winner has the unfortunate duty of casting the only vote sending the next person home, therefore is solely responsible for that person leaving. Because this happens so close to Final Tribal, That person is still upset and votes for the person who did not win Final Immunity. Just a theory, but it certainly has substantial evidence.

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40. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
historically the winner of the car has also failed to win the game, yes?
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43. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Yes, and they have also all been guys.
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33. "Back in Episode 6...."
...our Draco Malfoy made a prediction. I think the question mark can come out of the subject line now :

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/5417.shtml



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42. "RE: Back in Episode 6...."
Oh that was a funny read...my posts..I mean


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Though, I was so young back then (still 35)

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41. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
A couple notes:

Twila's Anger?

Unlike other players like Eliza, people like Scout and Twila aren't getting a softer edit. Twila, in particular, was very volatile. Between her campfire fight with Ami and her outbursts at Tribal Council, Twila came off as a hothead. Generally, Twila has come off as "the tough chick," but she received an angrier vibe this week.

Her hard-nosed approach to the game now reminds me of Ami, actually. Twila knows it's a game, and doesn't try to sugarcoat the fact. She, like Ami, doesn't appear to be empathetic toward the people she votes off. Twila treats the game like it is the Mafia. Do the job. Clean your gun. Go back to bed.

Eliza's Edit?

Before, I mentioned how it appears that Eliza's becoming more likeable. I still stand by that opinion. As opposed to Twila's hard-nosed approach to the game, Eliza also plays it at a personal level. She was good friends with Ami and Julie, and remained civil, even from different sides of the game. This is a striking contrast to Twila and Ami's relationship.

Eliza is becoming a player that I want to root for. First, I found myself cheering for her when she beat Ami to win the car. Partially because of my dislike for Ami, but also because of her underdog-like status. Skinny Eliza. Weak Eliza. Eliza can't catch pigs. Eliza almost keeps getting voted off. Some people pegged her as getting a "little sister" edit, which is just right.

She has also shown a particular amount of mental strength when Ami tried to convince her to switch sides again. It should be interesting to see her fight with Twila this week.


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44. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Well I hope everyone is ready for my post show fluff

I will not bore all of you with repeating what I said when I created part three; last night only solidifed things for myself Julie had no peak in her editing last night and, in fact, last night was the PERFECT moment for her to have it which solidifies to me that she is the next boot - see the first post for all that mumbo jumbo involving her story

The Quotes and then some

Volcano - huge sparks and explosing in the beginning and it was shown smokey and brewing later

Ami (about Eliza) "You have been about going home a zillion times" (Like the boy who cried wolf.......when she finally needs to stay desperately does she go home?)

Twilla "We got the power now, Chris, I and Scout (These types of statement worry me with their arrogance and because Twilla herself says it makes me question how much longer DOES she have the power; not that only later did she repeat this including Eliza)

Chris "I need fuel for my soul" (regarding RC- an interesting comment if not indicative of anything nevertheless could be referable to how he needs to keep refueling for the eruption)

At the Challenge

Commentary that stood out by Jeff:

Scout giving it everything she has got........ and later...

The woman who wouldn't quit.... Scout

Both these statements stood out for me mainly due to what the rest of the episode showed as well. This episode focused quite a bit on Scout's physical issues. The irony is that Scout's physical issues were never a topic for her boot before or even a topic from her (except from Eliza) I found it extremely curious along with these quotes we then heard from both Scout AND Ami about her physical limitations and something with this struck me; we heard from Scout later of her humiliation and so forth and while many of you may disagree, I found this softening a bit (along with the shots often of her struggling in navigating her way through the challenge) curious. More on Scout below.

Julie riding their tail (Very true)

Chris using every part of the course to stay out of the water (Chris has been utilizing every part of every issue of every person to stay out of "hot water")

Chris and Ami - playing chicken (No doubt )

It's Eliza's challenge to win.....IF she can finish
(An interesting foreshadow perhaps, the IF she can finish makes me question the end result of the game being the BIGGEST challenge to win here)

Exchange between Julie and Chris
Chris: Do you want this bad?
Julie: I do!
Chris: Me too!
(A bit of prophecy in the making)

Visually there was a shot of Scout right after this exchange slowly navigating the course (Visual inserts like this in the midst of such a notable conversation always make me pause)

At the Reward Spa

Eliza "Scout stopped talking down to me when she needed my vote (I had visions of Eliza debating on whether she should write Scout's name down or not to WIN as Scout may, in fact, need her vote to win)

Ami "Something smart for you guys to think about is breaking up Scout and Twilla; better position for the two of you in the long run (Another bit of foreshadowing coming down the pike with Eliza and Chris, in fact, doing this very thing)

Chris to Eliza: This is pure final four; if we change anything, nothing is guaranteed; look at our competition, a 60 year old woman and Twilla. Why don't we just get the checks out now" (Yes, I heard of cries of this is the winning quote - as stated is it? Or, is this a death wish quote?)

Chris "I'm counting on the fact that Eliza is mentally strong" (Yet another hint of things to come? Will mental strength be a factor in perhaps a final three challenge whereupon Chris is counting on Eliza but she doesn't succeed therefore perhaps losing the final three immunity?)

While Eliza and Ami were speaking at night, they showed a shot of Chris fast asleep - Asleep on the job? I had a flash of the overnight reward showing Chad falling asleep and Chad ended up getting booted.

At Camp

Twilla to Scout "I think she's still in question"
Scout to Twilla: Ain't happening, Eliza's solid

(Perhaps not ladies)

Ami I think it is important for Scout that she sees her name written down too" (During this there was a shot of Scout working which was then blurred to reflect the skull behind her which blurred and she came into focus again) These quotes always intrigue me in terms of irony, will she see her name written down WHEN it counts the most?

Ami "The thought of Scout in final two makes me sick" Again, this struck me as well. I have had thoughts on Scout since Episode One - this type of ironic statement would therefore keep those thoughts going

Chris"I"m sitting back watching them shoot each other" (And so they are Chris)

Eliza (At IC) "Oh, I just knocked myself off" (I always raise an eyebrow at comments such as this

Jeff about Twilla "Twilla with her last shot - she's just short" (Prophecy of Twilla just missing out - gone at final four perhaps?)

Jeff about Ami "Ami takes herself out" (Like the remark about Eliza, this obviously came to fruition last night)

Chris (walking back after IC) "I won something" (Yes he did but I go back to his whispers to his wife that he "didn't win)

Eliza to Twilla "You are not going to turn around and vote for me are you?" (At the final four will we see a vote for Eliza by Twilla?"

At TC

Jeff: The woman power thing is over! (Interesting if one wishes to take this as Chris reaching final two)

Jeff in his closing speech showed shots of Eliza then Twilla, Scout and Chris and then when he said it is only going to get worse, the shot was of Julie

Character Development

Twilla Again, I have felt that Twilla has slowly been sliding down the scale in her editing. What once was someone who was the underdog in a sea of bowheads, we were thrilled at her second chance at Lopevi and her potential to stay. As time has gone on, her constant "in the middle" and now her gloating of "power" is starting to weigh more negatively. It seems that Twilla is dwindling now into a caricature now and with this spin I do think she is going to leave in fourth place. Couple that with "She's just short" and the mutual distrust Twilla and Eliza expressed last night makes me question if Twilla's demise is directly showcased by Eliza.

Chris stayed neutral through this episode. My concern for Chris is his constant reiteration of how he just is sitting back and letting the women pick each other off so to speak. He has been shown more and more watching and just laughing about it; I am concerned he may "fall asleep on the job" when he absolutely MUST step up to the plate. However there has been no negative dip in his editing to suggest a sooner rather than later demise. Again though I didn't like the feel of his overconfident remark to Eliza. While many thinks this is a successful outcome quote, I have thoughts potentially to the contrary.

Eliza She had the most positive edit of the show when, in fact, she could have been edited negatively. She won an incredible reward and just got done booting someone that could have resulted in very nasty conversation from it. But there were no nasty remarks or grudging congratulations on her vehicle win and her vote of Leann was softenened tremendously along with the tears she shed over Ami but still voting her. Eliza has "grown up on the show" This did make me ponder whether or not she will reach final two status. I have noted that Scout and Eliza if not Scout and a man (which could only be Chris) seem the best outcome in terms of stories; this "upswing" in her character may be indicative of that. Again, of concern is her "Oh, I just knocked myself out

Scout There has been a definitive change in Scout's development from when we saw her with only the women. Scout was very highly and positively shown as the mother who, despite her physical shortcomings was not a boot candidate. Lisa was emphatic one episode Not Scout Rory admired her. We saw Scout maintain a level of balance. Her editing took a turn here and there with some negativity but in a passive way (compare Scout and Twilla's editing last night - Twilla shown consistently abrasive and while Scout was discussed in a negative manner, we saw her working hard in the camp, with sympathetic shots of her hobbling and confessionals of her humiliation) The exhanges that occurred between Ami and Scout focused more on Ami appearing to be picking on an old lady. Jeff's statements "The woman who wouldn't quit are not new statements; they have cropped up many times during challenges. Scout's characterization has had both positive and negative spins and probably the only real negative aspect to her last night was Jeff "calling her to the mat" at TC with his commentary that the keeping the women together was only good for her until it wasn't.

Julie and Chris's exchange was very interesting in terms of both wanting the win and perhaps Chris will impede Julie's progressing as he did in the RC. With reference again to Julie's sneaking into final five and that she is next to go, Julie's character had many opportunties to be showcased last night. We could have seen confessionals of her feeling very vulnerable and more importantly we could have been shown her pulling Chris to the side and asking about her status. After all, aren't they confidantes and have a pact? Yet nothing of Julie and her thoughts and questions were shown; this does not bode well for someone who COULD have been highlighted easily; this just confirmed my thoughts expressed on Tuesday.

I don't like what I saw with Twilla's developement last night and I have strong feelings that this evolvement does not look good for her once there are four.

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46. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
VS~~what great analysis, sweetie

I agree now that Julie is F5 and Twila is F4...but will Scout vote for her or will their be a tie (bringing to fruition about Twila's fear of a tie and purple rock~~although the rules seem to be different now and a challenge would break a tie at F4~~see Ami on early show thread)

I agree that Eliza has the best edit and she will likely be F2 and it is very possible that she's there against Scout~~who she believes will be easier to beat (now) on the jury. In this situation, Twila will be the deciding vote (the men SCC will vote Scout and the LAJ women Eliza) and how she is voted out at F4 will determine her vote. She's been edited now as being vindictive (ala Rotu 4) and will vote against the person (who burned her at F4) and not for the person she likes better. So if Scout goes along with Eliza and Chris to oust Twila, imo, Eliza is the winner.

I am also concerned about Chris' edit in Eps. 12 and 11 about letting things just happen and not making them happen himself (at least behind the scenes--like we talked about back when he was the secret Flab 5 leader on Lopevi).

Now that Chris is taking the back seat the women are fighting and giving each other reasons not to vote for each other in F2...this does not bode well for Chris because he turns out to be too likely to win the final vote, esp. bc he only needs 2 of 5 women's vote. Scout and Eliza will figure this out eventually (if they had not done so yet) So the only way he makes it is if he wins F3 immunity. Did his winning F6 IC bring to fruition his quote in Ep. 11 that Chris will win immunity or does he have some more IC wins?

If he does win F3 IC he has to think that Scout is now easier to beat in F2...so imo the possibility of Scout making F2 is quite high...and her edit is showing that.

aside: VS, we approach this thread very differently, you let the editing take you to the end which is a much better way to do it and I try to figure out the logical play and then have the editing fit in with my picks...I wish I had your ability to let the editing give me hints rather than finding things that fit into my view of things UGH!!!

Although, from editing I believe I have changed my thoughts on who will ultimately be F2, it's either

Eliza-Scout (Twila is deciding vote--Scout has to have not "screwed" over Twila at F4)

or

Chris-Scout (Chris gets SCLAJE and maybe even Twila re: her vindictiveness)

I had thought it was to be Chris-Eliza (and it may still be, but this isn't my first choice anymore)

Chris gets votes of SCS def.

Eliza most likely gets LAJ

So Twila is again the swing vote and it will come down to her vindictiveness and who did not screw her over!!

I had been thinking it was Chris/Eliza


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12-03-04, 09:33 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
(EW is "edit wise". EEEW means it smells)

Yeah, Twila getting angry, EW, but even more she is Unpolitical, EW. Scout is getting somewhat nastier EW, but she doesn't lose control like Twila, EW.

(And in my view, if not the islanders, a continued improvement for both, it deepens and adds contrast to their charachers, esp. if it goes beyond the editing, I think. Their editing is just to make the last episodes interesting, and misdirectable)

I don't thing we need to bother with Eliza's or Chris's edit anymore, their courses seem pretty clear now. Both of them to F3, and at least one (probably only one) of them gets to F2, and it could be either, EW. Whoever (of E or C) gets to F2 will win it all against Twila. Chris, the cheshire cat (OK Syl, we'll give him a lisp) or the little sister with faults but a big heart. Good F2, F1, stories, both. A toss up IMO.

But the Unpolitical aspect of Twilas behaviour is what may key the decision as to whether twila or Scout acccompany C&E to F3, and one of them to F2. She will be the better F2 opponent for either EorC. So she should be chosen to go to F3. Even in the face of Shakes rule #1 (boots aren't based on Game logic, or something like that), seems like he threw that in somewhere. If only someone had mentioned that earlier, so much grief I would have saved, Oi vei.

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12-04-04, 08:44 AM (EST)
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48. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-04-04 AT 09:43 AM (EST)

emydi - It is a foregone conclusion that many, after hearing information do what you do even if it is only "subconscious" so to speak You have incredible observations about each episode so don't you worry none

kingfish your spice in this thread is always interesting to add to all of our mix . Most definitely the changes in Twilla and Scout make them more interesting. The changes, however, are noted due to where I think it takes them. Twilla's edit as already stated, has diminished greatly in terms of being received as favorable to me. Therefore I can't fathom that Mark Burnett would allow the character of Twilla to be such without it coming back to haunt her.

She condemns Ami and Leann for their lording their power and arrogance yet we see her now doing that same thing. All the while she again, reeks of paranoia and waffling over trust and so forth. Her "pinnacle" of success in this show in terms of editing peaked a little after the merge. Since that time, I had noticed (as well as others of course) that her constant spin that was once somewhat endearing has changed. I have yet to see a winner receive such an edit of endearment or crawl and fight to the top and then dip to where she is not sympathetic anymore.

We were shown her confessionals of arrogance
We were given a comparison of Scout and Julie welcoming the three back while Twilla walks up looking suspicious

and so forth.

Interesting and fleshed out. Indeed. Having her cash a check for a million dollars now. Not as I can see

Scout as stated has been edited differently for her "evil side" It has been more subtle and definitely enhanced by Mark Burnett.

Example: The conversation between Scout and Eliza. Scout smiling with a very premeditated music in the back stating how great it is where they are. Reaction shot of Eliza looking none too thrilled nodding. Then to Scout laughing which "came off" cackling BUT was it? Or was it portrayed this way because we then were shown Eliza with a change in the music looking at her with open mouth?

I would enjoy seeing the UNedited version.

Oh but it doesn't matter who I suspect is next and next after to conclude my final three as there is so much there to go with Eliza and Chris.

Eliza's positive change is not set in stone
Chris's observational game playing may HAVE to change now
Scout's edit and its changes may determine the outcome of the game.

Boot are NEVER based on game logic. This has been discussed ad nauseum in prior threads that are no longer on the first page lol

Posters have heard me state we can NEVER assume since we don't know what happens on that show (Chrissy's arrogance or Ami's "issue" with Lisa) to allow a boot that may not have happened. That is why I don't necessarily attempt to see who the weekly boot is but as emydi states, the LONG term based on editing and their character development

At this juncture, I think Twilla will in fact be the fourth to go (emydi the purple rock/tie was first brought up by Twilla and it seemed very embellished last episode) Twilla may go this way at four by the very thing she wants nobody to go at. Eliza may win this immunity causing an issue.

With all of Scout's physical problems enhanced last episode when barely mentioned before, this has me curious as to whether she wins the Final Three challenge and the irony of such.

Scout's decision as to who to take would be interesting

Would she 'SACRIFICE' Chris though she probably would rather take him as a person because she likes Chris OR

would she get rid of Eliza who she has slated to want to go since Episode 1. After all, Girl Power is over?

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-04-04, 12:09 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Very interesting. And the main reason I like to get into this line of reasoning is becasue it forces me out of the pure strategic game logic which is my natural bent. And, as you and so many others say, the Master Editor can easily feed bogus data to corrupt the logic.

I agree about Twila, I think it only serves to make her an F2 second seat possibility. AS does Scouts Editing. Their edits also serve to show a contrast between both F2 second seat possibilities, both have more negative characher shadings, and twila moreso so far.

Your mention of the music points out an virtually untouched area of possible spoiling, editing, storytelling.

I think, (and again I know I'm echoing your basic premise), that the story MB has been telling with his editing of these characters, is an overall one. But I also think that, from the beginning he has been leading up to the establishment of certain basic characters for the F4 point of the game. At F4, the characters probably have to be established. I'm thinking that after that point, it will be harder to get video usable in editing as major charecter change material. Maybe these people, these non-scripted non-actors, could give him real entertaining, game changing, dramatic shifts of some kind after that point. But the reality is that by this point, they are probably going to be game focused and under control so that he will have to work harder to invent the drama.

By F4- Vanatuatu, he has established the dominate alliance. And established two of the final 4 as potential win prospects, and two as potential prospects that the winner would like to have with him. And there has been extended character development for all four, story arcs for all with possible endpoints for all in F2, and some multidimensional qualities for all, some more than others. And character development editing wise is essentially complete(hope not, but probably so).

Does Chris have to develop a little more, Maybe, maybe not. I can see his Cheshire cat smile (and revealing confessionsals) taking him to the end.

And Eliza, she's pretty much gone the gamut and her character is pretty well set. But I agree there there is still some additional aspects MB may work on. Additional maturity for her could be shown if she gives the pig mud chase a decent effort. And if she has to smooze Scout for F2 (in the highly unlikely chance that Scout survives to F3 And wins F3 IC) she may learn personal control (a real weakness for her so far). Her relationship with Twila seems to be changing, worsening

And with Scout, she may have quite unexpected and personal experience. (The devil made me say that).

Then the dramas at F4 and beyond become (to wheeze thru the bloody obvious);

- Whatever interpersonal dramas the final four give MB naturally that he can use for interest and Miss D.

- whether Chris or Eliza make F2

- whether S or T make F2.

- Twila, will she win F4 IC and force Scout out.

- Scout, irony of ironies, will she win F4 and force Twila out

- For that matter, I guess we have to include the possibility of drama in the area of "will the C and E alliance hold up", I suppose there will be some tired old Mistress direction there.

- The IC at F3 is a big dramatic point.

-Then "who will the F3 IC winner pick" At this point thanks to the character development and editing, there will be smart choice and and a dumb choice, the drama being which will it be.

Then the jury drama, and this year, it seems that all F4 to F2 combos will produce a close vote at jury, and the show will be a sucess.

This is where it seems to me that the editing momentum is taking us.

Outside the F5 boot of Julie, at this point just short of an established fact, right. I won't make a boot or IC or win prediction in this thread either. As you suggest discussing character development via editing and trends and possibilities keeps an open ended discussion going till the end. And is the reason, I guess why this thread is so long and interesting.

I appreciate the possibilities you posed. Will Twilla go fourth (I suspect Scout will go there, but only based on game logic, definately a faulty premise), And I (and I'm sure MB)could really appreciate the Scout win (kinda like Tina, right) at F3 IC and the ensuing dramatic possibilities. Eliza smoozing Scout?

The Unedited Version. Or considering that there are probably many hours, even weeks of video shot, at least the extended edited version. YOU LISTENING MARK BRUNETT? YOU CAN MAKE SOME MORE MONEY OF OF SELLING THE EXTENDED VERSIONS.

And I would really like to see that this is all Misdirection that all character development and editing based prediction go down the tube and Twila or Scout win. Won't happen, but it would be great TV.

And here's a wink right back at you.


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12-04-04, 12:25 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"

I think, (and again I know I'm echoing your basic premise), that the story MB has been telling with his editing of these characters, is an overall one. But I also think that, from the beginning he has been leading up to the establishment of certain basic characters for the F4 point of the game. At F4, the characters probably have to be established. I'm thinking that after that point, it will be harder to get video usable in editing as major charecter change material. Maybe these people, these non-scripted non-actors, could give him real entertaining, game changing, dramatic shifts of some kind after that point. But the reality is that by this point, they are probably going to be game focused and under control so that he will have to work harder to invent the drama

kingfish THAT my dear is exactly why I waste so much time on this avenue Some enjoy tremendously the weekly pick aspect solely while I do attempt to pursue the end game early on. Obviously I base weekly selections in here along with all of you and this I choose to do regarding their story and development which is essentially why I indicated Julie to go on Tuesday because of the editing, character and the early Chris quote.

Twilla I am willing to deem next due to the entire show thus far and also her editing turn whereas Scout has had a different vibe from the beginning as well as the dips in her character portrayal.

Interesting to note that in briefly re-watching the first episode which I had mentioned in more detail much earlier on is the challenge for immunity that occurred. We saw Scout and Chris struggling across the beam with Jeff stating "It is down to you two" and Chris falling off (which we recall was done again and again ) Lea yells to Chris "It's all you.... you're the man" however Scout gets herself to the end and subsequently the women win. Obviously this happened, it HAD to be shown as it was the challenge but what we DON'T know is how Mark Burnett et al may have edited this situation..........

Could Jeff have made that statement in context with other statements but THAT statement was shown

Could many of the men being yelling encouragement clearly yet Lea's was the one purposely chosen leading us to the event that Chris, indeed IS the man (not necessarily the winner BUT the man to end up in a very successful position of being the lone man in a sea of women?

These are the things I look at and question why and probably why I never really dislike who wins. It is more about the show and the winner got there then WHO the winner is.

I will be rewatching the first episode yet again (this will now be my third post on re-watching it so my apologies to all for the boredom ) but there was something very notable there with Scout and Chris and also interesting how Scout and Eliza's mutual dislike was noted immediately and always lurked there so we were not meant to forget.

I am looking forward to hearing from all of you as we are getting down to the real "nitty gritty"

The unedited version of Survivor would certainly be something I would like to see in Christmas stocking

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-04-04, 12:52 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
My New Years Resolution: Tape the episodes!.
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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-05-04, 09:04 AM (EST)
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54. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
"......... but there was something very notable there with Scout and Chris and also interesting how Scout and Eliza's mutual dislike was noted immediately and always lurked there so we were not meant to forget."

OK, this may have been inserted early on for plot development, so MB would have plenty of time to counter the negativity introduced by this into Eliza's character. In fact, it would give her (and him) a longer journey to her personal maturity (growing up on the island, on Survivor, almost like a sitcom edit). And Scout would have plenty of time to establish her journey from Yasur Earthmother to ineffective conniver, to a more successful player, to Elizas foil. If Eliza were to beat Scout at F2, then all of this makes perfect sense editing wise. And it seems to subtle to be a form of misdirection.

From the promos, we may be seeing Twila also becoming Elizas foil. This edit is more abrupt and herky jerky. Maybe Twila didn't give MB as much editing material early on as Scout did.

And all of this depends on Eliza physically not fading away completely. Not an editing based observation, but there is hardly room in those boney arms for even a strand of muscle. And you could chop wood with that face.

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52. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I agree with your theory about Twila. Twila, throughout the pre-merge and early merge, has enjoyed a much more positive edit. Her honestly reminded me of Sandra from S7. She always spoke her mind.

The last two episodes, we've seen a huge surge of negativity for Twila. I think MB is making her less desirable to set up her F4 boot.

Scout's editing has dipped negatively, but not nearly as quickly. She would probably make a good F2 partner, but I don't necessarily see that. Her recent theme about weakness suggests that she won't be able to a win a traditional endurance F3 IC.


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Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
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61. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Scout's editing has dipped negatively, but not nearly as quickly. She would probably make a good F2 partner, but I don't necessarily see that. Her recent theme about weakness suggests that she won't be able to a win a traditional endurance F3 IC.

But by the same token, the "weakness" theme for Scout was combined, in last week's "retrieve the flags" water challenge, with several pointed remarks about how Scout is battling on, not giving up, staying with it to the bitter end, etc. I don't know if those comments were made live at the time of the challenge, or whether they were dubbed over later. Either way, though, they certainly counterbalance the "Scout is weak" theme with "but Scout is also determined" which is a major Survivor motif (Outlast) and it could well be that we're being set up for Scout to finally win a challenge.

It is hard for me to discern whom Chris is planning on taking to F2 if he gets the choice. When talking to Eliza at the spa, obviously he was going to make it sound like his choice would be Eliza AND that his unspoken assumption was that Eliza would take him. Got to sound confident in your alliance to the point of sounding blase.

But then he says, "Who is our competition? A 60-year-old woman, and... Twila!!" That, to me, said Chris is thinking, "Scout will never win immunity, so she's an easy boot whenever we need to, and Twila is a great F2 opponent." Unspoken but implicit in the way he expressed "and... Twila!!" is "horrible, crotchety, disingenuous Twila who has already pissed off everyone on the jury."

That sounds to me like Chris will take Twila if he wins F3 immunity. Because I want Chris to win, though, I am now concerned that Eliza will also have identified that Twila is the best F2 partner, and would take Twila rather than Chris if she were the one with the choice. Certainly, the idea of a Chris/Eliza F2 is seeming more remote, to me, now. This is from a strategy perspective, though, and of course this thread is about the editing. But the two play nicely side by side at this point of the game such that I end up with the following perceptions:

Based on editing, we're being encouraged to believe that Chris and Eliza are F2. They're getting the most positive edits so (a) we're comfortable with the idea of them "deserving" to be F2, and (b) the voting would be interesting because we are being given to understand that it would be close and dependent on what happens at final TC. This would all make for good TV.

However, also based on editing, we're being encouraged to believe that Scout could make some kind of comeback. My perception of this editing is that we're being encouraged to see that it's not completely implausible that Scout could win immunity for the first time at some crucial stage of the game. I can't help but feel this is misdirection, though, to help keep things interesting when it would appear from all other angles (the "Scout is nasty" and "Scout is useless" comments) that she's a goner soon.

Also based on editing, we're being given a Twila who, having originally been indecisive and waffly, gradually became a competitor/player we respected, but then the editing took her past that and into a "Yeah, but she's a lying conniving misery who hates us all" mode. For me, she is not Sandra but Johnny Fairplay and this leads me to hope that she gets the boot at F3.

However, based on a combination of editing AND gameplay strategy, Twila could still be headed to F2. Chris clearly understands that Twila is a good F2 opponent but he needs to be careful that he doesn't get Eliza believing in this TOO much just in case Eliza wins F3 immunity and chooses to take Twila. Also, on the strategy front, he saw Ami and Eliza's love fest at the last TC, and he has to be thinking that Ami will vote for Eliza and probably bring along Leann's vote into the bargain. So while Chris has Chad and Sarge guaranteed, he has to play on the basis that Eliza has Ami and Leann guaranteed.

This means he has to keep making nice with Scout and Twila. Although it is hard to see Scout voting for Eliza on a "personal" level, it is not hard to see Scout voting for Eliza on a "principle" level. Same with Twila - based on this week's promos, Twila and Eliza are at each other's throats, which is perfect for Chris, but still no guarantee that Scout and Twila's votes come his way.

He is absolutely right at this point to sit back and let the remaining women knock each other out of the game so that nobody on the jury has beef with him. I am not even slightly concerned with the idea that he is being "complacent" or "too passive," as other posters have commented. He isn't. His confessionals clearly indicate that his "passiveness" is a gameplay choice, not just mental laziness. There is no need for him to be "active" when the women are doing such an effective job of getting rid of his opponents. This way, he has no blood on his hands. He is doing a superb job of placing his jury. He grasps that the vote could be close simply because of the strength of the women's commitment to each other, even when they're voting each other off, so the smart thing to do is lie low and be the innocent follower for as long as he can.

The only thing I can't really get a feel for right now is whether Twila is being set up to win another immunity and make it to F2 under her own steam. She has the capacity to do very well at any F3 endurance challenge. If that happened, then her editing up to this point (having shown us a full range of Twila, from evil conniving Twila to sympathetic three jobs Twila to student of the game strategist Twila, etc) would support her presence in F2 - especially if she "earned it herself" by winning that F3 immunity. We may not like her, but we would certainly feel she deserved her spot if she attained it herself - and we'd also say to ourselves, "And, you know, it's not that she doesn't deserve to win. She has played hard, and given us good entertainment, and hasn't been UTR which we're all sick of, and the million would massively change her life for the better which she deserves because she works hard and hasn't had any breaks from life yet."

Chris' comment about "a 60-year-old woman... and Twila!!" could play out as support for Twila making F2 under her own steam. It would be one of those ironic-type key quotes. Chris' editing in general doesn't suggest that he is due a "come-uppance" of that kind, though, so again I feel like a lot of the editing on Twila and Scout is misdirection at this point, just to keep things interesting. The only thing that concerns me is that both Chris AND Eliza would have to make a somewhat strange decision to take each other to F2. It has to be clear to both of them that they would split the jury dangerously close. While Eliza has been on the chopping block several times, there has never been consensus against her, and all the girlie snivelling at the last TC has got to raise red flags for Chris. Likewise, Eliza has made several key strategic decisions recently to keep herself in the game AND has managed to remain sympathetic to the women on the jury. Both Eliza and Chris would have to have some kind of brain fart to take each other to F2 on this basis!

One final thing, though, that is really interesting to me and that just occurred to me as I was reading over this. While there's obviously a risk that Eliza would take Twila, I have a sense from the editing that Chris believes this would not happen and that Eliza would certainly take Chris. I believe through his winks and his overall Supportive Elder Brother demeanour towards Eliza, and through his sense that she is a girl who thinks somewhat emotionally even while she is thinking rationally, he is confident Eliza would take him.

So much to think about, so much to type about... I can see how the esteemed VS finds the word count running away from her on this topic!!

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63. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
But by the same token, the "weakness" theme for Scout was combined, in last week's "retrieve the flags" water challenge, with several pointed remarks about how Scout is battling on, not giving up, staying with it to the bitter end, etc. I don't know if those comments were made live at the time of the challenge, or whether they were dubbed over later. Either way, though, they certainly counterbalance the "Scout is weak" theme with "but Scout is also determined" which is a major Survivor motif (Outlast) and it could well be that we're being set up for Scout to finally win a challenge.

That's very true. Scout is definitely one of the weaker physical players, so she must rely on wit and manipulation in order to survive. While I still don't see her winning an endurance F3 IC (if it is one), I could see her manipulating herself into the F2. Chris or Eliza or even Twila might believe they can beat her.

Still, it wouldn't surprise me either if she finishes in 3rd, fulfilling her physical weakness theme. Scout may finally meet her match in the F3, and she won't be able to do anything about it.

It is hard for me to discern whom Chris is planning on taking to F2 if he gets the choice. When talking to Eliza at the spa, obviously he was going to make it sound like his choice would be Eliza AND that his unspoken assumption was that Eliza would take him. Got to sound confident in your alliance to the point of sounding blase.

I think Chris is covering his bases right now. He's been pretty friendly with Julie and Twila thus far. It makes logical sense for him to form a closer relationship with Eliza. The only person he hasn't really bonded with so far is Scout.

Also based on editing, we're being given a Twila who, having originally been indecisive and waffly, gradually became a competitor/player we respected, but then the editing took her past that and into a "Yeah, but she's a lying conniving misery who hates us all" mode. For me, she is not Sandra but Johnny Fairplay and this leads me to hope that she gets the boot at F3.

I agree. I think the editing is really hardening Twila's character, so the audience won't object to a F4 or F3 loss. She might even make F2, which would also make sense.

Chris' comment about "a 60-year-old woman... and Twila!!" could play out as support for Twila making F2 under her own steam. It would be one of those ironic-type key quotes. Chris' editing in general doesn't suggest that he is due a "come-uppance" of that kind, though, so again I feel like a lot of the editing on Twila and Scout is misdirection at this point, just to keep things interesting. The only thing that concerns me is that both Chris AND Eliza would have to make a somewhat strange decision to take each other to F2. It has to be clear to both of them that they would split the jury dangerously close. While Eliza has been on the chopping block several times, there has never been consensus against her, and all the girlie snivelling at the last TC has got to raise red flags for Chris. Likewise, Eliza has made several key strategic decisions recently to keep herself in the game AND has managed to remain sympathetic to the women on the jury. Both Eliza and Chris would have to have some kind of brain fart to take each other to F2 on this basis!

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Chris dumped Eliza at the Final 3. I'm not too sure if Eliza realizes Chris' threat to her yet...

Still, the comment about writing them the checks is worth considering.

I think the Final Four is really going to be a dogfight (assuming Julie goes this week). So many things could happen:
A. Chris/Eliza vs Twila/Scout (a tie)
B. Chris joins the ladies, boots Eliza
C. Eliza joins the ladies, boots Chris
D. Twila, avoiding a tie, joins Chris/Eliza, boots Scout.
E. Scout, avoiding a tie, joins Chris/Eliza, boots Twila.

I'm definitely going to watch closely this week, to find some clues for the Final Four. If we can deduce who the Final Three is, we may be able to figure this thing out.


A 2004 holiday treat from Mon Cherie. Jims' Random Thoughts

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-05-04, 02:24 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I have a general agreement with almost every think you said.

I think, If this is what you said.

A case editing wise (and Game wise) can be made for Chris, Eliza (as good guys) and Scout, Twila (as good F2 second seaters) to make is to F2.

A weaker case can be made for Eliza and CHris making it to F2 together. Because for either, Twila or Scout would be a better choice. The editing for Chris trends to support that he is wiley enough to see this, the edit for Eliza also supports this for her but less so

And the wild card of a extremely dumb decision (Colby, Lil) exists.


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12-05-04, 05:32 PM (EST)
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65. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
It seems to me VS that Twila has found herself the victom of the kiss of death Lex edit. No one has ever survived this edit and I dont think that Twila has the ability to either.RedBeard
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73. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Excellent point redbeard. MB doesn't want us feeling sorry for the F3. Lex, and Keith to name two. MB will soften up the final two leaving the rest to twist in the wind. Chris and Eliza are getting the softened up F2 edit. MB doesn't want us to dislike either one. He even softened up crazy Matt in the Amazon, who if you listen to the competitors in their post game interviews, was way worse than he was portrayed.

DRONES

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12-05-04, 07:41 AM (EST)
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53. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-05-04 AT 07:42 AM (EST)

I find it ironic that Scout's has recently shown herself to be the antithesis of all that she represented earlier in the show.

Earlier she was the trying to establish balance and harmony (infact she embodied these characteristics). Recently, however, she has become the person to cause a tribal imbalance herself (she organised - or at least was a critical supporter - of the recent coup).

Whether this occured as result of game change (tribal balance is much more important pre-merge than post-merge) or something else I don't know, but I think it leaves us clues as to her ability to win.

If you look back on all the past winners, none of them have encountered drastic mood changes - certainly not to the extremes of Scout's.

As most of you have been saying, this bodes well for Eliza and Chris - who have been consistent with their editings. Twila has undergone some drastic changes recently, as has Julie (or at least she would have if she ever represented something definitive - like scout).

I think it is a fair conclusion (based on past evidence) to assume that anyone who undergoes such a drastic change is NOT going to win. Forgive me if I am wrong, but none of the past winners have undergone a sudden or dramatice reversal, like scout - who has come to embody that which she originally opposed (and in quite a short time).

Perhaps the only exception to the rule could be S6 and Jenna - although no matter how I look at her I didn't see her change from anything but a teenage B*T&H (ala 'mean girls').

Please tell me if you see any exceptions to this rule.

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55. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I agree with you AJ, as far as the consistancy that winners have been portrayed throughout their season, not alot of drastic switches in plot or gameplay, or outward personality:

S1- Richard was a schemer from day 1, always wanted to be in control (as provider he chose when and how much they ate, tried to always get his tribe into discussions on how they could win challenges, and grabbing the knife that was part of the RC and strapping it to his calf the second it arrived, even the getting naked was part of his power as he wanted all eyes on him, etc), and was looked at as annoying to his tribe from start to finish.

S2- Tina's editing was consistant from start to finish, she was the matriarch who plotted and got her group into position, and she was shown that she could manipulate people.

S3- Ethan was just a plain old good guy the entire season in Africa. He was a typical lamb like follower of Lex and never made any brilliant moves on his own. But his editing did not change much from start to finish, he was who he was.

S4- Vecepia who? What editing?

S5- Brian was developed from the very beginning, and really started talking to the camera at and around merge time. Shown as confident and manipulative, his arc never had drastic swings either.

S6- Jenna, again her story did not reveal why she should have been the winner until very late, but her editing was nonetheless consistant throughout.

S7- Sandra was the same from the beginning through the end, always had one goal in mind, vote for anyone but her. She had flair ups with others all throughout but none of the flairups made her look particularly bad. The only time the editing came close to making her look bad in a hated kind of way was when she spilled the fish and allowed the blame to fall on Christa, but even that came down to her strategy of "anyone but her" and she knew if she fessed up that she would be gone.

S8- Rob was portrayed as the devil from day 1, he lived up to it the entire season.

So with all that said, there really is only 1 person who has received this kind of consistant editing this season, it would be CHRIS. Eliza has received the evolved edit that shows her at least momentarily to be not as annoying as she was. Scout and Twila have had major swings of late. Julie who?


2004 ASS Trivia Champ

BTW: AJ check your email and PM box, I sent you your new sigpic.

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12-05-04, 11:25 AM (EST)
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57. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"

>S8- Rob was portrayed as the
>devil from day 1, he
>lived up to it the
>entire season.

It was Lamber who won it all, not Rob... and her editing was rather consistent as well -- she was edited in a "growing up" role as she "grew" in front of our eyes from the clueless lamb from S2 in the first couple episodes to a more capable person by the end with her fingerprints involved in some boots.


>So with all that said, there
>really is only 1 person
>who has received this kind
>of consistant editing this season,
>it would be CHRIS.
>Eliza has received the evolved
>edit that shows her at
>least momentarily to be not
>as annoying as she was.

Agree on the Chris edit being very consistent, moreso than anyone else there. I'd say that Eliza has received an Amberesque edit, except Amber was never annoying, more of a clueless sort.



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12-05-04, 11:44 AM (EST)
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58. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Yeah, I mean Lamber, geesh must have put down who I thought should have won it all, lol. Anyway, yes her editing was consistant as well, no real shifts.


2004 ASS Trivia Champ

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59. "Eliza = Amber"
LAST EDITED ON 12-05-04 AT 12:17 PM (EST)

Heh... I'll agree with you on that one, Rob deserved it more than Lamber did, but that's not to say that Lamber was a totally undeserving winner.

Just wanted to explore this theory further as I don't think I've seen this parallel brought up before, but it's occurring to me that there might be more to the Eliza = Amber editing pattern.

Amber - when we saw her in S2, she was edited as clueless and a sheep who did whatever Jerri wanted her to do, and when faced with an opportunity to establish herself in the game in the F6, she folded faster than a cheap suit and got booted.

Then in the All-Stars, many of us questioned her inclusion in this game as being unworthy. In the early going, we saw her mooning over Rob while he and the others were building the shelter. On par with her editing from S2.

Over the next few weeks, we did see her latch onto Rob a la Jerri in S2 and we all said "ah, nothing new", but then something happened. The editing of Lamber started to change very gradually and we saw more and more significant confessionals/comments from her, and even some strategizing from her about who should be booted. Amber also was able to save herself from a boot with her liasion with Rob (who asked Lex to spare her) and convincing Lex/Kathy she shouldn't go after being switched over to the other tribe.

Now compare this to Eliza. In the early going, we saw her edited as annoying, spoiled, all yapyapyapyapyap, and a source of derision from others who talked her up as a boot candidate. Then something changed in the last few weeks. She became someone who wasn't as hopeless around camp, could win a couple of challenges (she won a physical RC!), and while still annoying and a boot candidate, she became more involved in the boot discussions of late and made her move to save herself from Ami/Leann/Julie's plan to boot her. She also gained a friendship and "trust" with Ami and others still in the game such as Chris -- in the early going, nobody ever talked about getting along well or trusting Eliza.

Eliza = Amber, both grew up and matured in front of our eyes (didn't somebody say something along the lines of "Eliza has grown up in front of us" in the last episode?). Can she also pull off a 4-3 win as well?



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12-05-04, 07:15 PM (EST)
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66. "RE: Eliza = Amber"
In regard to Amber and Eliza having a 'winners' edit, they are both still consistent when compared to the other players left. Perhaps Amber and ELiza, if she is to win, could be seen as having a Brian Heidk-like edit. Even though Brian was WAY more manipulative and we see him in a very different light to Eliza and Amber, he, like KOB said, MATURED throughout the game - like ELiza and Amber. Brian, Amber and Eliza all have edits that have changed, but they have changed consistently. So, perhaps this still fits the typical 'winners' edit (which, as I said earlier, is one of consistency). In which case I think Eliza's edit sets her up to win just as much as Chris' does.

Does anyone understand what I just wrote or is it so inarticulate that you are rolling in confusion?

thanx for the great sig pic kob!

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70. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I would like to ammend my final statement to say that besides Chris, Eliza is really the only other player that has received consistant editing, even though she has "evolved" a little more and softened of late, she still has as good a shot as Chris going into the endgame. Thursdays episode should answer some questions as well.


2004 ASS Trivia Champ

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12-05-04, 10:35 AM (EST)
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56. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Great thread VS!

And as Scout is no longer being betrayed as scatterbrain look for a good showing in the trivia challenge. I believe she did fairly well in the last one.

Scout is playing the game.

MB has shown the Earth Mother twice
saying "Well I had to lie..."


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12-05-04, 12:28 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I just posted this in the Mis-Direction thread but it's a small thread and may never be read. I feel so strongly about this I am posting it again here since more people may read it and I do feel it pertains the the header of this thread. The Ami thing has got me really riled up-if this is a list faux pas-forgive me. Here it is:

>>Tempers flare when one tribemate refuses
>>to tell another the whereabouts
>>of some buried provisions.

If you watch the Insider videos you'll see Eliza and Julie exchanging glances when Scout tells Ami they are running out of food (manioc (sp?))?
Ami *seems* pissed but I think she may have been in on it.

Recall when Sandra threw away the fish because she was pissed that Rupert was probably leaving and def on the chopping block. Sandra couldn't change the outcome of the vote so she wanted to prove how they would miss Rupert by throwing away the contribution Rupert made to the tribe.

Julie and Eliza (and perhaps Ami herself) hid the food source that Ami supposedly worked so hard to gather. Trying to make a point to Scout and Twila (the worker bees) that they work too.

Or they are eating on the sly and planning on making Scout and Twila work twice as hard to gather their own food. Witness the blanket bitchiness from Ami during the last episode. It was not night and looked as if Scout was going to shake it out to clean it or move it.

Watching the show (esp the confessionals) and insider I def believe that Ami is the nasty one. She has no control over her own narcisstic self absorption. She is livid beyond normal pissed off that people that she considers beneath her have beaten her. Examples: Scout is old and is jealous of her body? (Scout mourns her younger body esp in this game but it has never come out except for Ami speculation that Scout may be jealous of Ami's body). Twila is as strong but isn't a girl enough for Ami. (Ami manipulating Twila into tears about being more girly-not attempting to accept Twila for who she is and campaigning for the other women to accept her also.) Ami's blatantly smug looks of satisfaction every time she manipulated someone's demise at tribal council. Ami's condescending dismissal of Lisa's innocent statement and twisting Lisa into a defensivie stance and using the the defensivie stance against her. Ami's pity look at Eliza when Eliza's vote was read during the Leanne oust.
Ami could outwit-but her game was filthy not just dirty. This is not a pejorative statement about her game but that her game was not about women power it was about woman power-Ami's. She is a hypocrite and liar. Do not get me wrong- the game is the game and how someone plays it is fine. What I don't see as fine is Ami as Queen of Denial. Lie, Cheat or steal but don't be holier than thou that someone else did it and you lost because of it. Ami's game was just as dirty as the worst of any villian. She was just sweet about it. I hope Scout calls her on her BS during the reunion.

Back to the original misdirection-the pretty girls hide the food-how's that for fair play, integrity and honesty that they insist they have and bad bad Twila does not?


Best,
Diva

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62. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
The Manioc issue is a curious one. But, Basically, it seems that it was included as part of Ami's edit, to show her as isolated, brittle and unable to gracefully handle adverse circumstances (once she realizes the she is the obvious boot target), and under pressure, unable to manipulate well. This last impression is at reward, when she says something to the effect "Well, I think breaking up Twila and Scout would be a better move for you two", talking to Chris and Eliza. That was a try to save her from TC ejection, but the way it was presented (editing) it was a feeble move. She had previously been shown as a master manipulator. Surely this was edited from a longer, maybe more persuasive dialog. Why was it included this way? Because this way it made her look ineffectual and ripe for demise.

All together, the manioc incident (indicating her isolation), her not-favorable reactions, and her feeble attempt at target deflection was just MB's attempt to kill her off, to make her into someone who deserves her fate.

In fact, everything you hate about her (and that America by now hates her for) is a result of MBs editing manipulation. She really does say and do these things, they are unscripted unactors, but with miles of video to edit, a skillful editor can make Mother Teresa a biutch.

(There, I got you into the Edit thread)

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12-05-04, 07:53 PM (EST)
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67. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
divawife, this is entirely an appropriate thread for you to put these items in and please pop in and post your thoughts.

I won't do much more tonight than state everyone has really intuitive thoughts. Again though I go back to how we see players also based on our liking of them. Somebody (so sorry who said it ) said Chris was their favorite so perhaps they were looking at it a certain way. That goes with the territory so sometimes we shall all see a little something that someone else might not.

Back in October I made a post due to some editing turns and compared them to prior seasons. Since the topic came up again, I will just re post my thoughts on same; mind you certain players were STILL there. It was brought upon by the "turn" in Ami's editing that had started where she suddenly was not portrayed as wonderful as orginially shown.

Why Ami's character edit has taken a turn is significant to me. Grant it, I don't watch her and think of her as a nasty character now though I have read other posts they feel this way but she has definitely now been given an edge that has, thus far, not been shown. This only goes to show me that she will not be the winner.

I usually find that if a contestant gets a more "negative" (for lack of a better word) edit, they are heading for a fall. This only contradicts with Brian but in that case, the audience was let in on this editing change by Brian himself. The main point of Brian's edit was that he was fooling his tribe whereas with Ami, we are not being let in on the "joke"

With every season, Mark Burnett tries to somehow justify his winner.

Richard Hatch was consistent throughout. He manipulated greatly, was not exceptionally liked by people but the audience was privvy to his strategy and his behavior as well as the contestants.

With Tina, her editing was also even keeled; akin to the power behind the muscle so to speak. There were no sudden negative edits shown on her where the audience suddenly wondered how did she get so mean.

With Vecepia, Mark Burnett went off the course of his normal set up so I won't presume to speak about her editing. Needless to say, her camera character was essentially consistent throughout (we are NOT talking about other player's thoughts on the person mind you but the character portrayed)

Ethan's character was again consistent. He was not portrayed as an evil and conniving person nor someone who suddenly changed his persona. The audience for the most part saw who he was at the same time his tribe did.

With Brian, he appeared to be everybody's friend, the one in charge but with a nonchalant manner. The audience however was let in on his real persona and only until it was practically too late, did everyone else see the "real" Brian

In the Amazon, Jenna usually was purported to "redeem" herself somewhat. What started out as someone by audience standards to be shallow, petty and the like, if anything, during the course of the show was fleshed out more to be vulnerable, physically capable of handling a challenge and so forth. Now some people may think they didn't like her up until the very end but I argue that Mark Burnett did what he could to soften her edit to more positive if anything. She certainly didn't come out more negative. Whatever bias people had for Jenna I would suggest it was there from the beginning and we didn't want to like her regardless of what Mark Burnett did to "justify" her win.

With Sandra's editing, Mark Burnett was again consistent. Sandra was not necessarily shown to be a darling. Recall what she did to Christa; recall the trip she made to the other tribe to "steal" the tarp. These situations were not necessarily positive ones for the winner but did you hold it against her? I certainly didn't and, in fact, I enjoyed her more for it. She may have had an up or down but nothing so palpable for us as viewers to have distaste for her and, in fact, her constant "battle" with Fairplay was completely part of her winner design. How does one portray somebody positively when there can be a sense of negativity about them? By showing a battle between that person and someone even more distasteful.

ALL STARS WAS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STORY. In our Editing thread of All Stars, I had indicated that this was more about if the players WOULD ESSENTIALLY REPEAT THE SAME MISTAKES.

I really won't get into A]ll Stars since the audience already knew these people but I would suggest that Amber was never made out to be worse than Rob. For whatever negative aspects of her character were shown they were minimized with Rob's behavior potentially being the mishap of All Star's editing since a majority of people felt Rob deserved the money more when in reality we don't know that he did. He was just the voice we heard more.

Bringing us to this edit. I feel with the pronounced way Mark Burnett is showing a shift in Ami's character it is unlikely she wins this game. We aren't sure what precipated Lisa's boot other than what he chose to show us which was not a "great" reason (Lisa's comment) I would guess there IS more to it as my suggestion that Ami was made aware of Lisa "warning" Travis about Ami, so why is not that shown? I contend that Ami is destined to be brought down.


I have yet to see a winner be portrayed positively and then get a negative spin (except Brian but see above) If were "let" in by Mark Burnett on why Ami's edit took a turn that would be different.

Therefore, those we also need to watch are:

1. Those who started out somewhat negative to be "redeemed"
2. Those who have been consistent throughout with their character
3. Those who have been somewhat in the background to emerge and not negatively.

As of now only Leann has shown this and depending upon your view, Rory.

Over at Lopevi Chad, Chris, Lea have mainly been consistent in their portrayal and in fact, without Rory, Lea's is more positive but there has been too much on Lea before with Rory that doesn't bode well for his edit. Twilla has gotten a good spin done on her mostly. So as of now, I would put Chad, Chris and Twilla in the positive editing category. I would say though unfortunately if we do not see more of Chad soon he may be relegated to a final four or three position (though I will stand by my predictions) As stated the merger will certainly help. This is not to be confused by face time spike though like Julie received.


(again this was done on October 25 so some of these players that have been booted are still in my post )

To the final people:

Twilla's descent is not indicative of a win considering what a great edit she had been for as perfect underdog

Eliza's edit had been negative and graduated positively however Kathy was very similar in that regard and we know what happened to her, final three. This is where I see Eliza's edit.

Chris and Scout essentially have not had MAJOR shifts in their edit. Chris for the most part has been consistent which I have already mentioned. Scout's edit has been perhaps the strangest in the slight turns of it and also how it was portrayed by the audience.

I think the last show actually was more empathetic to Scout in light of the events happening. I already compared her to Twilla and the differences but notice how she was shown "strange" in the conversation with Eliza but while during the challenge she was a perservering character along with her confessional and all the while negative things were being said about her, we saw nothing but her working around camp.

What was said and what was shown and what actually happened are all different. Hence why we are here; to give Mr. Burnett a run for his money

Great thoughts everyone!

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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12-05-04, 08:23 PM (EST)
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68. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-05-04 AT 08:24 PM (EST)

Veruca, here I was thinking I was somewhat intuitive by saying that the winners always seem to have consistent edits, only to realise that you posted the same thoughts two months ago! (what's worse is that I probably commented on them or, at the very least, read them).

Although, I have to disagree with you on Scout. I really think that in recent episodes (particularly after Sarge's boot) Scout has turned drastically in terms of her edit. She no longer strives for peace, but she worked to overthrow the queen. She became a rebel. We might have always known this was going to happen though, considering her quote from the first episode - "I am going to play with honour and integrity. And if that fails lie cheat and steal" - or something along those lines anyway. Regardless, Scout is no longer what she used to be. ANd her change wasn't consistent, like many other players. She switched in about two episodes. Whats more, she has stated form the outset that she doesn't like ELiza, yet here she is now aligned with her. If you ask me, scout is one big walking contradiction, and as such her edit doesn't have the consistency needed for her to win.

Of the players left, only Chris, Julie and Eliza (I say Eliza because her character has gradually grown, it has been consistent from episode to episode, but maybe not if you compare the first episode with the last) have had consistent edits. By game logic Julie is dead, which leaves Chris and Eliza as the prime candidates to win, based on this theory.

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12-05-04, 08:39 PM (EST)
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69. "Eliza = Jenna M?"
I think Eliza is getting a very similar edit to Jenna from S6. Considering that both this and Amazon's year had the male vs. female storyline, there might be something to this theory.

Both players had a negative edit early on in the game. Eliza was portrayed as somewhat annoying and physically weak. A liability, actually. Jenna was edited as snobby and shallow. Two different edits.

But, their final editing is beginning to look the same. I agree that Mark Burnett *did* soften her editing around the Final Five. Jenna was making decisions and was much less snobby (edit-wise). Eliza's been softened through her battles with Ami.

She, like Jenna, is an underdog of sorts. Jenna, after Heidi's F5 boot, was all alone, much like Chris. She was an underdog with Butch/Rob/Matt. Jenna began winning many more challenges, proving to the audience her strength and determination. Eliza's doing the same thing. She's been a loser in many aspects of the game, but has now the winner of a very physical RC.

While many wouldn't appreciate an Eliza win (like Jenna), her softening may win some over.


A 2004 holiday treat from Mon Cherie. Jims' Random Thoughts

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12-06-04, 06:44 AM (EST)
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71. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-06-04 AT 06:45 AM (EST)

There are several things sticking out me.

1.The constant eruptions of the Volcano. All that molten lava and fire changes the entire geographic landscape of an island.

2.I'm going to burn Eliza(or something to that effect in the torch snuffing RC)--Scout

3.I'm going to burn this whole tribe(something like that)--Chris

**BTW if someone remembers the exact quotes in refering to in #'s 2 and 3, please don't hesitate to correct me

4.beyotch's, they used all the hot water(or something to that effect)--Chris in this episode. Why did MB include that quote, especially the beyotch's part? I know that is very harsh word and it is one of only two words that I can think of off the top of my head that will bring a very strong reaction when directed at a women. This is the type of quote I came to expect from Brian Hedlick. Or, is this just Chris showing his own catyness(sp?).

5.Chris's quote to Chad about Julie making it to the top 5 has me so convinced that she is going to be out this week, that I would be shocked if it were otherwise.

6.Twilla is being edited as the ultimate villian. Remember that Chris stated he has F2 packs with everyone except Twilla.

7.VS, hit on this already but I think it is very important. The sudden appearance of Scout's weakness and all her injuries. Could it be that Scout wins the every important F3 and burns Eliza by taking Chris over her?? It seems we are being set up for a Scout victory in a physical challange. I just can't get over Ami, Julie, and Eliza smirking about how Scout was performing in the IC.

8.About that IC, I found if very revealing that Chris realized the irony of not being able to beat the women in physical challeng. I know that there are some who believe Chris is not playing the game or is in no position to play the game. I couldn't disagree more. Chris had Eliza all rapped up in his back pocket to vote out Eliza's big sis, Ami. This in spite of the fact Ami was in her ear in bed(is there a more intimate place to be and then to have someones ear??). Chris wasn't sleeping in bed like Chad(sorry VS but I have to disagree with you). Chad was drunk and passed out. Chris was comfortably sleeping on the coach knowing all is well with Eliza.

VS, we may have to add a final 4 thread after the Julie boot on Thursday. I look for things to get very hectic after the Thursday EP, especially with the finale on Sunday

DRONES

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12-06-04, 07:28 AM (EST)
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72. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-06-04 AT 08:53 AM (EST)

DRONES - More than likely a good idea; there will be quite a lot said at final four

If I recall correctly it was not Scout herself who said about burning Eliza but Chris said it so while the wrong person DRONES, nonetheless can be important ESPECIALLY since it WAS coming from Chris. If I recall, the three men were on the boat discussing Eliza's "place" with the women and that "Scout will burn Eliza"

I don't off the cuff remember Chris indicating burning the women collectively; I'll go back to look but Rory had said that if he was voted off, Yasur would burn WHICH, could be prophetic.

I note your point on the "sleeping" symbolism and you are right and naturally the sleeping issue could be nothing more than just what it was but we always like to leave no stone unturned

aj, bringing it up again was crucial at this point because the winner is right around the pike Amazing is how there has been such debate over Scout's edit all over and how it is perceived. I would state though that Scout said in the beginning of the show that her intent was to play with integrity BUT if it fails (I'm paraphrasing) she would lie, cheat, steal. Her intentions were clear in the beginning of the show so I still maintain that her edit was not a contradiction but rather a development due to the game. This is basically why my premise on Scout is what it is. If she never said that, her editing turn would be more of a surprise to me and then one of a bad position for her but the audience went with her flow and subsequently "forgot" (so to speak) her confession of her game playing.

To date, I think we have done a great job on the long term prospects so I do believe there is a lot to this way of viewing; most of us after the show before last did not like Julie's position with her editing and the "fifth" scenario was something discussed immediately after Chris said it.

Twilla will be key because of her edit. If she does surpass the final four position then frankly I would be surprised due to how everything has played out thus far but this is what I enjoy so much about our editing observations regardless

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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12-06-04, 07:49 AM (EST)
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74. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Thanks for clearing up all the quotes about burning. I just can't seem to get the them of burning, ...island of fire out of my head. As much as the pre merge was about balance, the post merge has been about burning, or being burned.

VS, what did you make of Chris's comment while in the shower about ...them beyotch's? I'm curious because I can't seem to put that quote in context of what was going on at the time, with those three all relaxing at the resort.
DRONES

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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12-06-04, 08:14 AM (EST)
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75. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
DRONES - I did find the comment by Chris you referred to; this was during his vote for Lea:

“I’m going to burn every one of ‘em. Just let ‘em open a door. This is for you, not against you”

The two comments that you brought up though would be fitting

Scout will burn Eliza
Chris will burn every one of em.

This actually plays out how I feel the end road goes to the final two at this juncture so it is worth exploring!

Yes I noticed that comment by Chris also; I didn't post it the first time as I wanted to describe the events since all he said was the cursory remark and the "B-itches" It did indeed seem out of place and those types of remarks I usually feel ARE left in for a purpose.

The idea is what you took from it. It was over hot water but his comment was certainly harsher. One could view this as a negative on Chris or a commiseration with Chris. I would suspect in light of all the events that have been occurring, we were meant to commiserate with him and therefore not hold that against him in terms of how his character came across

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-06-04, 08:53 AM (EST)
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76. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
And the women used all the hot water, PREVENTING chris from burning himself! A glaring F1 forshadowing.

Sorry, that was silly. I just need a little coffee to wake up and get serious again.

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aethelstan 4435 desperate attention whore postings
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12-06-04, 01:48 PM (EST)
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77. "Chris' shower comment"
If anything, I think this shows the audience that the women are preoccupied with themselves and that Chris is forgotten. Likewise in game play, the women's alliance has turned on itself and Chris is under their radar.

©Kittyloaf Creations, 2003

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-06-04, 10:55 PM (EST)
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78. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
LAST EDITED ON 12-06-04 AT 11:01 PM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 12-06-04 AT 10:59 PM (EST)

I thought of this in another thread but since I wound up with an Edit-related observation, and since it is undeniably brilliant (ahem), I though I’d bring it over here, since there are so few posts here and all. I hate to see you over here flapping the breeze, no one responding (what, only 150-300? replies so far).

According to the latest viewing of the volcano picture, the two figures looking at a blowing volcano seem to be Julie and Chris. Without getting into the merits of this observation, just suppose this is what happens. It’s not an idle observation, this is probably who it really is, and there are a lot of good reasonings and observations supporting this. So Julie wins RC and takes Chris. Also, suppose Julie is booted at next TC, also not an idle supposition.

Would this not be a cute edit for Julie? Julie’s character has been edited since the beach scene to be a cute little butt flashing sprite cognizant of the effect she has on the guys. As VS points out, she is doing what she has to do. She is shown and quoted using this plus a Sarge snuggle to survive what would otherwise be a high degree of probability of death (as far as she knew), and she makes the merge.

Then after the merge Leanne takes her on holiday, and MB makes sure the edit includes the manipulation on this trip showing Julie working on Leanne to ingratiate herself into the controlling AMI/Leanne/ Eliza bloc at the time. Not sexual, but a sisterhood type of manipulation combined with Chicken wings.

Now, with her life on the line (OK, eviction, not death), she wins IC and she sees an opportunity to take one of the controlling bloc (Chris and Eliza), and she chooses the man. Predictable, predictable predictable - and gives MB great material for her edit.

And that's her story, she goes at F5, everyone remembers Chris's F5 quote concerning that. But her manipulation doesn’t work on Chris, so now we recall the Chris quip about how he can’t manipulate women as well as men. Some irony there. A nice end to Julie’s story, ties up some hanging chads, er quotes, and somewhat subtle, because till the end (an end that is still speculative, actually, till Thursday nite) no one really spotted her story. Great job, MB. If it happens like that.

VS, her editing makes more sense now, and it's a nice job. And she can leave with a complete and an unusual story, most closely paralleled by Jenna M., maybe?

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pinchy 200 desperate attention whore postings
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12-07-04, 09:20 PM (EST)
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80. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I haven't read all the posts, so this might have been mentioned already...It seems like there have been hints in a build up of a Chris and Scout connection. Scout mentioning that early on that she wanted to play the game with Chris and the fact that he broke through her determination to have an all woman final. tHowever, this may not mean that Scout is F2 with Chris (I'm sold on Chris at F2), but it could mean that Scout and Chris are at the volcano together. The case could also be made for Chris and Julie at the volcano, both would make a good story. Either way, I can see the volcano story ending on a highlight for Julie or Scout. This would fit with why Julie has had no story for the last two eps. too. If she wins reward, and then is the boot, they've got it all covered in one ep. Also works for Scout at volcano, then be booted off next ep. and have the drama be between Twila and Eliza.
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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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12-07-04, 07:22 PM (EST)
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79. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
These are just some things I noticed when re-watching episode 12:

1. In the RC demo (the bit as Jiffy narrates what the have to do) it is Scout who is shown to win it (i.e. it was her pole that got all three flags up). I am probably going out on a limb but could this be foreshadowing of Scout winning an important physical challenge? The question has been raised as to whether Scout may surprise us all and win at F4 or F3.

2. Julie's only notable comment for the last 3 episodes was: "Chris stinks". Sure, it was in reference to how he smells but if it is the only thing most of us can remember her saying for three weeks maybe it is important. May we take it as a double meaning and think she won't vote for Chris if he gets to f2?

3. Ami - "Good luck to all you youngens". Evidently, we know where she stands. She will vote for Eliza or Julie to win anyday over TCS. This really isn't an editing issue but I did find it really showed where she standed.

4. I can't believe no one else has said anything about this yet (or so I have read). As Ami was walking out from Tribal council she stuck her middle finger up, over her head. The censors blurred it out, and it was quite difficult to see because of the darkness, but she definitely threw her hand over her head and gave the remaining players the finger. Could this indicate a Sue-like erruption at the final TC? I think so.

Feel free to tell me if what I observed is irrelevant, but I just found these things interesting.

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DRONES 615 desperate attention whore postings
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12-07-04, 10:05 PM (EST)
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81. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
I agree with your #1. There have probably been a number of opportunities for MB to show the physical limitations of Scout, yet he choose to wait til now. Why? Could it be because he has been saving up the irony for her to win.

Most of the individual physical challanges have not even shown Scout competiting...until now. I would venture to say that she has yet to complete one of these physical challanges or else she has finished dead last.

This has not been a surprise to anyone which is probably why MB hasn't shown us. Why tell us something we already know, unless he wants to highlight it for a potential win down the road.

Could Scout win an IC at F4 beating out Eliza and seeling her doom. That certainly would qualify for Scout BURNING Eliza.

DRONES

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VerucaSalt 1580 desperate attention whore postings
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12-08-04, 08:55 AM (EST)
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82. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
aj ANY observation is a good observation Some may not directly have any impact but they do give insight into thought process hence Ami's parting words. At THAT time, Ami was most definitly not happy with the non youngins

As pretty much stated, the people remaining in the game have had definite editing twists on their character and of the remaining, Twilla's has certainly hit the low end which allows me to conclude that she will meet the end after Julie.

DRONES as we have mentioned, both of us are very interested in the capitalizing on Scout's physical limitations and I'm hard pressed to think that this isn't being put in there for no reason leading me to question whether Scout does, in fact, win something and possibly that final three challenge.

With that, Chris's commentary about not winning physical challenges against the ladies makes me question whether he wins next week's immunity if physical. Ironically last week Chris indicated he is COUNTING on Eliza staying mentally strong. Could this then be indicative that Eliza wins this week's immunity since it appears to be a mental challenge. (Yes I am repeating myself again )

As this is coming down to the final four and there is not much time between both episodes (I will start another thread though) my thoughts on Twilla will be that she is going fourth. I then question Scout obtaining the most important victory of a challenge she could have but at this juncture I would suspect both Chris and Eliza would choose her as a final two as a number of us have been commenting on.

It really seems only suiting that Chris or Eliza would make the end with her based on the stories and themes. Eliza and Scout have had the showdown of great proportions since the first episode and the irony that in the male dominated culture the two left standing are both WOMEN is irony at its finest. With that man vs. woman is also very fitting and Jeff's comments of it being down to the two of you (Scout/Chris) could be prophetic.

While I am still debating the final two outcome, Scout has been and continues to be who I feel is situated in the final two (I will not bore those with all the reasons that I have stated on this for these many weeks

Again, as I stated which BR also thought, it is extremely hard for me to see Chris make it all the way to the final two in the circumstances surrounding him. Also, his level of confidence seems to slowly be emerging into "cockiness" (as well as the writing the checks comment) does make me concerned as already expressed. Last week he indicates the checks should be written, this week he watches the women and is laughing at the commotion. Is he getting the too "big for his britches" characterization?

I am not sure yet.

I would suggest that if Scout does indeed win the challenge she needs to win (fulfilling all the innuendos) it is more conceivable to me that she would elect Eliza to be there with her. If Eliza should win this, I would suspect she would also select Scout. This is the UTMOST of irony in that the two of them wanted each other gone from the moment they entered the game ONLY to be the one that they EACH would choose to go to the final two.

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-09-04, 07:32 PM (EST)
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83. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Not much to add at this point, not till we see how the "Julie, Julie, come home" episode goes. One small somewhat moot point, in connection with the following:

"DRONES as we have mentioned, both of us are very interested in the capitalizing on Scout's physical limitations and I'm hard pressed to think that this isn't being put in there for no reason leading me to question whether Scout does, in fact, win something and possibly that final three challenge."

Could be for no better reason than to keep her from seeming any more pitiful than she is, rather than being a story line edit. I mean, if you are MB, and have so much video of her you-know-whating-the-pooch every time they have a physical contest, you just about have to find those quips from JP that at least keep the audience from groaning whenever she is in someone else’s frame.

After watching her for all these episodes, I resist any idea that she can win a physical contest of any kind. And in spite of the conception that seems to pervade these boards, she is only marginally better at the more mental contests. I know, She has a PHD in something, but her edit and performance don’t reflect that IMO.

No question that it is valid and reasonable to question these things, but that one little aspect of the editing won't lead to anything, I suspect.

I'm posting this 20 min before the episode, twenty minutes of smugness and my holier than thou attitude before being proven all wet. Oh Well. It was fun.

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kingfish 20752 desperate attention whore postings
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12-09-04, 09:55 PM (EST)
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84. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
BTW, Ahem. Ref post 78.
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JackieHollow 8 desperate attention whore postings
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12-09-04, 11:30 PM (EST)
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85. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"

1. In the RC demo (the bit as Jiffy narrates what the have to do) it is Scout who is shown to win it (i.e. it was her pole that got all three flags up). I am probably going out on a limb but could this be foreshadowing of Scout winning an important physical challenge? The question has been raised as to whether Scout may surprise us all and win at F4 or F3.

I was just reading through this wonderful thread, and this jumped out at me. They did the same again this week, only with the immunity challenge, rather than reward. It was Scout's necklace they filled with the 5 "charms".


Jackie

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applejack93 288 desperate attention whore postings
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12-11-04, 08:00 AM (EST)
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86. "RE: Down To 6 - The Players, The Game, The Editing"
Yeah, it probably doesn't mean anything, but I am glad I wasn't the only person to notice it. It just seems odd, that's all. The general reaction in my household was one of scorn for scout (when we saw it was her 'winning' in the demo) and MB doesn't like to promote scorn. Maybe something else?

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