|
|
|
|
PLEASE NOTE: The Reality TV World Message Boards are filled with desperate
attention-seekers pretending to be one big happy PG/PG13-rated family. Don't
be fooled. Trying to get everyone to agree with you is like herding cats,
but intolerance for other viewpoints is NOT welcome and respect for other
posters IS required at all times. Jump in and play, and you'll soon find out
how easy it is to fit in, but save your drama for your mama. All members are
encouraged to read the
complete guidelines.
As entertainment critic Roger
Ebert once said, "If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue
with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way."
|
|
|
"More from Orangeena"
Jims02 7407 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
03-01-04, 01:07 PM (EST)
 
  |
|
1. "RE: More from Orangeena" |
Where does Orangeena get this information? I'm still pretty skeptical. Although, if he didn't have a source, I'm sure Q would have locked the thread by now...Logistically, I can see how Colby would go before Jerri. The group of Kathy/Shii/Lex take control of the tribe and boot Colby. There would *have* to be some sort of twist (delayed merge/another swap) for Jerri to go right after Colby. In a merge situation, generally strong players are picked off first, from the next possible threat (Mogo Mogo over Sabogans). Obviously Jerri would be the boot if there is no merge. Oh well. Time will tell. 
A 2004 IceCat creation
|
|
|
Top |
| |
 |
dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
03-01-04, 01:15 PM (EST)
|
|
2. "RE: More from Orangeena" |
Orangeena has been around for awhile, it isn't as if he just suddenly showed up claiming to be Uncle Cutting Room Janitor's Significant Other's Ex.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
raidersfantom 137 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
|
03-01-04, 01:58 PM (EST)
|
|
6. "RE: More from Orangeena" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-01-04 AT 02:00 PM (EST)I agree. I posted this earlier in another thread that "IF" the Pagonging of MogoMogo occurs, then Jerri is an obvious threat to the Robfather's alliance with Amber, and could be going back to Jenna L. at a merge, stron alliance of three women, wouldn't be hard to get the rest of the girls on board like Alicia, who IMO would relish the thought of getting rid or Boston Rob. Boston Rob, Tom, Rupert and Amber would then go after Jerri first in any merge, IMO. As for the Pagonging/Sookjaiing of MogoMogo happens, it would suck. That's the other thing Orangeena is saying. That would suck, I am really starting to like the idea of a Kathy/Lex final two. Can see it too as they look like the power couple at MogoMogo. Hopefully some of the spoilers are misdirection.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
03-01-04, 02:11 PM (EST)
|
|
7. "RE: More from Orangeena" |
LAST EDITED ON 03-01-04 AT 02:11 PM (EST).....I always thought Orangeena was a "she", not a "he"....LOL. Orange does seem very adamant about the boot order as she's been with the last 5 boots. Very strongly predicts them....but last year "she, or he" was also very adamant about DARRAH as winner of S8. Sounds to me like she, or he does have some information that they've acquired all on their own...hmmmmmm??? 
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
RebelYell 152 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson"
|
03-11-04, 11:23 AM (EST)
|
|
63. "RE: More from Orangeena" |
I thought the same thing, Flower ...but 'geena believing that Darrah would win, we know, would have to be taken only as a guess since the winner is revealed to the world on live television, right? I guess that the information could leak out and get all over the message boards, but even someone claiming to know who the winner is has a 50-50 shot of being right. I've never been right, it seems, on any of my guesses 
I did, though, post a long dissertation one afternoon about who was going to get voted off Survivor during the first season. It was solid speculation that I was writing on the day that Big Brother was about to debut.
After all my solid speculation, I added at the end: "and by the way, Eddie wins Big Brother."
Of course, I shot my credibility all to heck and, obviously, I was only guessing at a sympathy vote, but to date, it's the only time I've ever been right about anything on television except for how "Newhart" was going to end its final episode. Even a blind hog finds an acorn
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
munson 1314 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beef Jerky Spokesperson"
|
03-01-04, 02:45 PM (EST)
|
|
9. "RE: More from Orangeena" |
BR, thanks for posting this. I was thinking of starting an Orangeena thread myself but since I was the one who posted the silverstarz stuff, well, just didn't want to incur the wrath of those who were sick and tired of fake boot lists and supposed insider information from "sources."Just to recap Orangeena's future picks, s/he has Soozin going in E6 followed by Ethan in E7. Colby and Jerri complete the pre-jury boots in Episodes 8 and 9. Is this credible information? Hard to say but as has been metioned in this thread, Orangeena is not a newbie at Sucks trying to make a splash with insider stuff. I think it's unlikely a veteran poster would knowingly claim info like this at the risk of completely damaging their reputation. S/he would be vilified in the Spoiler community. Possible? Yes, but I believe that Orangeena believes the info to be credible. Keep in mind that s/he posted the third, fouth and fifth boots on February 6 - the day after Episode 2 aired. Go ahead and throw out Jenna6 and Rob6 and you're still left with a Rich boot prediction three weeks out. Here's the post: Orangeena
Brian
Posts: 1547
(2/6/04 9:29 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
The Fall of the King
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard goes in Ep. 5, following Jenna M. in 3 and Rob C. at 4. They should entitle Ep.5 "The Fall of the King." CODE ORANGE(who was right about Rudy) So 5 for 5. Not bad. No other spoiler comes to mind that had these 5 pegged as early as February 6. Sure, Snewser might have had the info but if it's not on record... Then, the Sue and Ethan boots were posted immediately following E4 on Frebruary 19. Here's that post: Orangeena
Registered User
Posts: 1577
(2/19/04 11:08 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
The Hawk Flies, Ethan is Zoned
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the fall of King Richard, Sue Hawk and Ethan *sob* don't last much longer in the game. S6? S7? *sob* But my info that "Ethan does well" turns out to be right in that Ethan outlasts the other winners, but not by too much. Sure, these boots look a lot more likely now but they weren't as reasonable in the moments after Rob6 was booted. It looks like the Ethan pick for E7 will go a long way toward establishing or obliterating the credibility of Orangeena's source. Then came the post you referenced dated February 27: Orangeena
Registered User
Posts: 1600
(2/27/04 9:47 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Last 2 Boots Pre-Jury, Colby, Jerri
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Last two Boots pre-jury are Colby, then Jerri.
This is where Jerri gets revenge on the person she feels did her in in Australia, the Colbster. Code Orange Also, found it interesting that Dark Rivers posted in Orangeena's thread about how much he hated having his show spoiled. When the biggies come out of lurkdom, I think it's good idea to pay closer attention. These picks might also support Varner's claim that existing friendships going into the game were destroyed. It would be easy to see an Ethan/Lex split if Lex makes any kind of promise to Ethan before booting him out. And if Jerri is the first merge boot, it probably means that both Amber and Alicia vote for her, again, perhaps after promises of safety. Unrelated to this topic but related to the Varner quote and incorporating available spoilers/specualtion, look for a Lex vote from Tom. Lastly, hard to see how Sue and Rich will patch up their relationship any time soon.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
munson 1314 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beef Jerky Spokesperson"
|
03-01-04, 03:16 PM (EST)
|
|
12. "RE: More from Orangeena" |
Well, I wasn't gonna bring it up.... 
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
03-01-04, 04:40 PM (EST)
|
|
15. "RE: More from Orangeena" |
I can see Jerri as the first post-merge boot, because she'd be the Mogo a Gogo that the Chaperans would least like to see on the jury, based on prior voting history. Jerri cast the anti-Colby vote, strictly going for revenge. None of the Chaperans want to risk being seen as the betrayer and lose her vote. Kathy and Lex are more likely to vote for a winner who they feel played the game the best.Shii-Ann's an unknown, since she wasn't on the jury her first time around. But since she showed a willingess to switch alliances if she felt it suited her, the factions within Chapera may feel that she could be a useful swing vote. Besides, she's no physical challenge threat at all, so they probably feel like she's an easy one to pick off if their planned target upset the order by winning IC.   Snarky, smart, S7 Anti-Bootee Champ
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
tribephyl 12393 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
03-01-04, 05:18 PM (EST)
|
|
17. "Orangeena is a man, baby!" |
Albeit a man who likes men. But, a man none-the-less.Now about O's tenure over at sucks. Orangeena has been posting ever since, I believe, S2.
He also has just as many detractors as he has supporters.
His personal spoiling abilities, range in the never correct to the couple of correct, with lots of peeps pointing out his not so correct theories.
However, with this new bit of info, it does seem that Orangeena has come into a bit of knowledge.
Whether this is just grandstanding or not has yet to be revealed. But, it's not like we haven't been subjected to his boot orders from all seasons past.
This may just be his personal opinion (with the help of Snews and others)and will be played out sooner rather than later.
Or somehow, someway O has hooked up with a source. Which seems highly unlikely, but, maybe I'm just jealous. It's not a far stretch (if a stretch at all) to have Sue going next and Ethan, Colby and Jerri following. So O may be correct in his listing of them. Yet, it also may just be his thoughts on how the next few ep.s go down. This is why I enter this arena, with a little trepidation. I don't think he would ever admit his mistakes. He hasn't, when he's made them, in the past. Yet, he keeps "showing up for work" at Sucks with his 2 cents worth. When do we start believing him? After $3.50?
But you can call me tribe. S7ABCABP Winner
"I just had to get those guys comfortable riding the big banana. And they did." King Dicque(RIP)
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Loquatrix 640 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator"
|
03-01-04, 08:37 PM (EST)
|
|
20. "RE: Orangeena is a man, baby!" |
Reality check time! ::grin::I was reading Sucks all last season. During that season, Orangeena made daily posts (sometimes several posts in the same day) averring unequivocally that "Darrah wins." More often than not, that phrase was posted in large, orange font and was issued with singular determination every time ANY piece of information came to light that seemed in some way to point to Orangeena's desired conclusion that Darrah would win it. For example, someone piped up that Darrah had been seen driving around her home town in a new Hummer before the series had finished airing. I can't remember if it was Orangeena who originally posted it, or whether Orangeena just leapt aboard the bandwagon, but either way it was Conclusive Evidence In Orange World That Darrah Wins. Needless to say, it turned out to be a complete load of cobblers. Now, I grant you, our current situation is different. It was clear, during S7, that Orangeena simply had a huge, all-consuming crush on Darrah -- a proper "crush" (as opposed to just "fancying" Darrah) by which I mean that whole starry-eyed "Oh my god, she is so awesome in every single way!" breathless idolatry that is often unrelated to sexual feelings (though of course does not necessarily exclude those either). Orangeena was quite determined that Darrah was the most intelligent and most athletic competitor ever to tread the boards of Survivor, too, you see -- not just that she was the cutest. So yes, we had a great deal of fervent dialogue about things that supposedly "proved" how Darrah was incredibly smart and physically unmatchable. For example, it was deemed by Orangeena that Darrah's boyfriend was incredibly intelligent for some reason or another, and Orangeena's theory was therefore that this proved Darrah to be intelligent because intelligent men don't have dumb girlfriends. (Uh -- sorry, which planet do you live on, again??) For ASS, by contrast, Orangeena is turning out what appear to be reasonable boot picks, rather than what s/he HOPES will happen in the favour of her favourite competitor. And, as another poster pointed out, the information is not coming in the same desperate, breathless, fawning-over-one-Castaway idiom as the whole Darrah fuss flooded forth. However, given that many practised spoilers have quietly been going about the business of making correct picks week by week for ASS -- nothing more or less than Orangeena is currently doing, in other words -- it'll take a lot more than a correct boot sequence to convince me that Orangeena is anything other than his/her usual self. While Orange clearly does pay attention to the show, and does have some good insights into human nature on the same ordinary level as we all do when we're paying attention, s/he is demonstrably prone to misinterpreting evidence and -- worse -- forcing the evidence to fit his/her desired outcome. I have no idea why anyone who has read categorical depositions from Orangeena as recently as the Darrah nonsense would be forgetting this. She's not picking boots that surprise anybody. Until she does -- and gets it right when the rest of us are all confounded as to how such a boot could occur -- then I'm quite content to ignore his/her boot list with the same gay abandon as I've ignored all the others. Then again, I didn't change my Ryano pick to Lill just because Snewser did, so perhaps I simply don't have my herd mentality down right quite yet. Goshdarn, I'll NEVER fit in at Sucks at this rate. ;)
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
blackirish 10 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson"
|
03-02-04, 07:43 AM (EST)
|
|
26. "RE: Orangeena is a man, baby!" |
Long time lurker here and at Sucks.Totally agree with what Tribephyl and Loquatrix had to say about Orangeena, particularly his "performance" during S7. Up to the day of the S7 finale, Orangeena was gloating about Darrah's "win," and how fabulous Darrah was in every way. He aroused some serious hatred over there, even from some of the more rational-seeming posters. There were hysterical threads with titles I can't quote here (something to the effect of doing the nasty to O's face bashing Orangeena after the finale. Griffe seemed to be an Darrah/Orangeena supporter for the longest time in S7, then she backed off earlier this season, understandably!! But now she's posting her support for O again ("Orangeena, you're the greatest S8 spoiler" brak brak brak). Credit where credit is due - Orangeena does seem to be making more of an effort to distinguish spec from "intel", as he puts it, but I'd still take it all with a HUGE grain of salt. I for one will be seriously peeved if we see a Mogo pagonging. This could be a worse season than S5 Thailand if that happens. I still *heart* Lex and even have a warm spot for The New Jerri.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
tribephyl 12393 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
03-02-04, 03:40 AM (EST)
|
|
22. "Yogi knew." |
See we shall but if these turn out to be guesses, well, darn, I'm still gonna be pretty impressed! Which begs the question, does it matter if the source is legit or not if he gets all the boots correct? Especially so far in advance of the actual episodes?A poster of our very own actually knew this same boot-list. I might add that I really have no reason sharing Yogi's PTTE here, but, "someone" (hint Yogi) knew of this same boot list and has also been correct all 5 previous boots.
Yet, they were all pre-season picks. Not 2+ episodes early.
There are, from SB, a dozen more that share very similar preseason boot-lists.
Not to say that Yogi doesn't know an insider, but I would wager that Yogi's list is, like Orangeenas, just an educated guess. Done while considering all of the pre-season chatter. Orangeena is given to drama.
His adamancy in previous seasons is somewhat legendary.
In the past he has also been very, very wrong.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see him acquiring a source. The more I think, the more I believe this is just his personal boot list.
It just comes from a bigger Attention Whore. I hope he's not wrong. For Yogi's sake, only.
But you can call me tribe. S7ABCABP Winner
"I just had to get those guys comfortable riding the big banana. And they did." King Dicque(RIP)
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
udg 3381 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity"
|
03-02-04, 05:02 AM (EST)
|
|
23. "RE: Yogi knew." |
Actually, there are 11 of us with 0 points in the PTTE game. Looks like I'll be knocked out of position this week (I picked Colby for this week).Right now, PelicanPete, LeftPinky, ulalame, udg, Lolly, railfan, whoami, survivorscott, Yogi, tribephyl, and Kokoro are all tied for the lead. If you give enough monkeys typewriters, they'll get the bootlist right. But, that doesn't make them spoilers. ---
UDG
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
Markopolo100 218 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
|
03-02-04, 05:16 AM (EST)
|
|
24. "RE: Yogi knew." |
Believe in Orange
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
IslandFever 205 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
|
03-05-04, 02:28 AM (EST)
|
|
30. "Agent Orange" |
I really felt for the Big O last season because he was getting flamed royally for his support of a Darrah win. He was putting a lot into Wezzie and Quartzeye's observations which turned out not to be at all accurate. This season his posts are different. It almost sounds like a different person. He claims to have a source. He states he has met several Survivors. Maybe that is his source, I don't know. Maybe someone in the gay community. I have heard other spec that there is a delayed merge and a possible return to 3 tribes temporarily which would explain the next 3 boots. Agent Orange has been correct on boots so far but not on all details. I give him credit for returning to the Sucks board after all the hostility last season.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
cdlafl 26 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"
|
03-05-04, 11:43 AM (EST)
|
|
32. "RE: Agent Orange" |
at Sucks, she claims that in episode 7 at the "reward" challenge, we find out we are merged and playing for individual immunity...then they feast...this follows with snn calendar...
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
speedyforme 228 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star"
|
03-05-04, 12:14 PM (EST)
|
|
34. "RE: Agent Orange" |
but the preview on CBS say that reward AND immunity is up for grabs so....
|
|
|
Top |
| |
munson 1314 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beef Jerky Spokesperson"
|
03-06-04, 06:51 PM (EST)
|
|
35. "Update" |
For those of you who have placed your trust in the Orange one, here's the most recent update. While not offering a complete retraction, he has made a qualification in his "sourced" boot list. Orangeena
Registered User
Posts: 1623
(3/6/04 12:01 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: What's up , Orange?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It IS up in the air. The next three boots are Ethan, Colby and Jerri, I have been informed, but at the present I don't know which is the order. This IS a change. Sorry. Just thought I'd be upfront and report it as it happens. Well, at least he still agrees with Snewswer's scorecard. Regardless, unless something comes up later (like Snewser's pick on Thursday afternoon ), I'm sticking with Ethan (previous winner). Jerri has too much attention thrown her way in the previews this week (misdirection) whereas Colby is invisible (OFG).
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Krautboy 2750 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Howard Stern Show Guest"
|
03-07-04, 09:18 AM (EST)
|
|
42. "RE: Maybe the rest of the show..." |
At some point an accellerated boot schedule is needed to fit the show into the 39 day schedule. If we have a two-day episode this week, it would help explain the decision to combine the RC/IC.SNN had predicted the yacht reward early on...and speculated that it was probably a tribal reward. The reward may be an overnight stay for Chapera, while Mogo Mogo is shown preparing for TC, strategizing between Ethan, Colby and Jerri. There's plenty to fill a two-day schedule...RC/IC, yacht trip, pre-TC game-play, and TC itself...since we didn't get a TC last week, it may get extra time this week. 
Krautboy
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Flowerpower 7262 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
|
03-08-04, 07:56 AM (EST)
|
|
52. "RE: Speculation" |
With the solidarity over at Chappy and the close, very physical challenges, I would think that if the Mogo's indeed lose and have to go to Tribal Counsel that they would acknowledge the danger of voting off a strong contender....I found the fact that Sue said that she would choose Colby and Shii-devil to be on her team, when she probably does not know them too well, other than perhaps from watching their respective Survivor seasons and maybe bumping into them at Survivor get-togethers. I can speculate that perhaps they did get to know one another a little better at loser lodge....sure would make sense voting Shii-devil off as the weakest link in the Mogo chain. I know that she is not one of Orangeena's three picks for the next three boots, and I know that she seems tight with Kathy, and perhaps Lex. I agree that she is probably a player that can be manipulated. BUT, I also know that Colby can not stand her, and he's also friends/confides in Lex. I don't think Jerri is that fond of her, and Ethan will go with anyone that is not him, a la Sandra strategy. I can not see Colby going this week, they really need him to prevent a pagonging, but we know that he is Jerri's first choice boot pick and perhaps Shii-devils. One could argue the same for Ethan, he's stronger than the girls in the challenges....although with the previous winner target on his back, we know that Lex does indeed make that a priority target. As for Jerri, they really are playing up animosity towards her...she is also probably one of the weaker members, although she looks pretty darn strong in the vidcaps for this week...her days are numbered.IMHO, it really is going to boil down to Lex and Cathy...can't wait to see if any of their conversations are recorded. One of these two is going to have to bend for the others wishes. Lex more loyal to Colby, Jerri; Kathy more loyal to Shii, perhaps Jerri....Lex is very logical though...I have to believe that he will indeed consider ShiiAnn as the weak link, but Ethan and Jerri are the outsiders in this tribe....
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
managerr 1959 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
|
03-08-04, 11:07 AM (EST)
|
|
53. "RE: Speculation" |
Mogo Mogo doesn't know Chapera is united. The last couple of Survivors have been back-stab fests, and Mogo Mogo may be expecting things to go the same way here. They could easily be thinking that Rupert and Jenna are outsiders on Chapera as well and will definitely be easy to swing over.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Blow by Blow 895 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent"
|
03-08-04, 11:37 AM (EST)
|
|
56. "RE: Speculation" |
Yawn...I've been sleeping through the past couple of weeks of Survivor and Spoilers, but thought I'd wake up and toss a couple of comments in here about what each player might be thinking.If I'm on Mogo Mogo I'd be thinking about the possibility of a post-merge Pagonging and who I'd want to keep around to be Pagonged first instead of me. So I'd really want at least Colby or Ethan to be there post merge, but maybe not both. If you look at S7, the three Morgan women did pretty well after the two strong guys (Andrew and Ryano) were Pagonged. Tijuana blew her chances, but Lill and Darrah went to f4. I'm just using this as an example, but I'd say that Shii An and Kathy could have this type of scenario in the back of their minds. Jerri also learned from bitter experience in S2 that just because you're not in the Pagong tribe doesn't mean you'll be F4 material. I would say that anyone on Mogo Mogo should suspect that at least one person or maybe two people are not in the in-crowd over at Chapera and I'd be strongly hoping that they'll get booted before me following a merge. Blah, blah, blah, that's probably pretty incoherent. Bottom line: If I'm Kathy or Shii An I'd want at least two of the men to make it to the merge, one of them being Lex and one being either Ethan or Colby (who haven't formed a strong alliance but will probably have Mogo Mogo loyalty at post-merge TC). -BxB
I do more to not work than actual work.
|
|
|
Top |
| |
|
|
|
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e - p l a c e h o l d e r t e x t g o e s h e r e -
|
|
Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic
Bookmark this topic (Registered users only)
