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NightScribe 761 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent" 09-30-02, 02:26 PM (EST) "How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" Something has been bothering me since the last episode aired, and I think it has to do with the editing. So, I thought I would start a discussion thread on the topic of editing. How much can we really rely on editing to help us spoil the outcome of each episode (and ultimately the winner of the show)? First of all, let's look at the editing of the first two episodes. In ep. 1 Robb is edited as a loud, abrasive (even combative?) California "dude"; he's shown belittling Jed, bonding with Ken, and working very hard on the shelter. In episode 2, Robb is sleeping outside the shelter he worked so hard to build (with absolutely no explanation as to why), and there is no mention of his friction with Jed or Shii Ann. Conversely, Shii Ann, who was edited in ep. 1 as having conflicts with Robb and sitting alone during a torrential downpour is now the spokesperson for tribal bonding. Episode two makes no logical sense when looked at next to the first episode, because there is little to no cohesion between the two. Now, some of you don't look at editing when you make your weekly picks, but I do -- sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn't. Take last season for example; Zoe had so little face time that we couldn't get a handle on why she was edited the way she was. Some of us (me) thought that her storyline hadn't begun yet because she was going to be around for a long time. Turns out she was just weird and didn't make for good T.V. Very few of us saw her boot coming. On the other hand, we could see Boston Rob's boot coming because the editing showed his storyline and its "climax" perfectly. SDawg will tell you (if you ask him) that Burnett edits his show to lead viewers away from the truth. This is sometimes true, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes the bootee is right in front of our eyes, but we can't see it, or we don't believe it (like Hunter in S4). Now, while Burnett wants to keep his secrets, he still has a story to tell. Ultimately, that's his job -- to tell a compelling story to keep viewers coming back week after week; otherwise, he's out of a job. So, while there will always be misdirection, there is always a larger story being told. S1 told us that you don't have to be young, athletic, or attractive to win this game. In fact, one only had to be crafty, smart, and steadfast (aka snake-like.) S2 told us that you don't, in fact, have to be an asshole to win Survivor. You can be nice and have friends, and still go home a millionaire. S3 told us that water tastes bad when its been marinating in elephant shit. S4 told us that the underdogs can win if they're patient because, ultimately, those Alpha males will take care of each other. I think it's too soon to say what story is being told to us in S5, but I think we can still use editing to spoil this show. It's a matter of ferreting out the BS from the truth. Final thought: Both Jiffy and Burnett have disclosed in interviews that this season was all about the in-fighting, backstabbing and combative personalities. Of course, there's always going to be that element in this game, but I get the feeling that this season will be the Jerry Springer edition of Survivor. Look for alliances to crumble, allegiances to shift back and forth, and by all means, look for the lies and rumors. Remeber, Vecepia won this game by betrayal. Her allegiance was to herself. The contestants now know that you don't have to have a solid and loyal alliance to win. The only question is, will it work again or will we be told a story about loyalty, dependability and reliability?   Top

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... steppingrazor42 09-30-02 1  RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... tribephyl 09-30-02 2  RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... FesterFan1 09-30-02 3  RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... Spidey 09-30-02 4  RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... TechNoir 09-30-02 5    RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... snoocharoo 09-30-02 7        RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... SurvivinDawg 10-01-02 10  RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... Jims02 09-30-02 6    RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... NightScribe 10-01-02 8    RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Sp... ShowMeTheWinner 10-01-02 11  A few words on this issue SurvivinDawg 10-01-02 9    RE: A few words on this issue Spidey 10-01-02 12

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steppingrazor42 283 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star" 09-30-02, 02:54 PM (EST) 1. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" Every cast is different, so who knows what story we'll be told. In the end the cast tells the story MB just makes it look good with the editing. Survivor, unlike a show like The Mole, doesn't have alot of secret clues to who wins.....after the season's finished one could go back and watch how the winner was portrayed but MB might completely change that in the next season. There will never be a "formula" to figure out who wins (i.e. Astrology, opening intro configuration, face-time). People who love to spoil are usually witty and sly, we love a good challenge, it's what keeps us coming back for more. I personally try to "read between the lines" with this show, as the seasons go on MB has gotten better at hidding people (in the beginning of S4 showing Kathy as annoying as HELL, but she ends up making it to the final 4). Each cast gets smarter and smarter each time, we are getting better at watching it and picking up clues.... Sorry if I got WAY off the subject   Top

tribephyl 12393 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 09-30-02, 04:15 PM (EST) 2. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" Episode two makes no logical sense when looked at next to the first episode, because there is little to no cohesion between the two. I agree completely. Especially, when looking at the dynamics of SookJai members. We all pretty much remember Ken speaking about his tribes "Lazy" members and "Freakin' Lazy" members. My original thought was that his comment was definitely directed towards Stephanie and Jed. The two of them plus Robb were showcased as the "Freakin' Lazy" folks as they sat around and made fun of all the other tribemates who were "busy" building the shelter. But if you watch the video clips provided by CBS. Not only does Stephanie speak of her like for Robb and Jed(they are all tight)but also says that the three of them work harder then most of the other tribemates. Wha..wha..what? When? We haven't been shown that at all. If you go to EP1 videos (from the same source) you will notice Ken talking about Jakes picks. Robb and Jed are also Ken's first choices, along with "Jake's first female pick"(Stephanie). Ken goes on to say that although Penny would not have been one of his first choices, he is glad that she is part of the tribe now. Penny works hard and gets along with everyone. That leaves Shii-Ann and Erin (and yes Jake too. but, it's quite evident that Jake is pretty much liked by everyone at SookJai and it is also quite apparent that he is a hard worker.)as the "Freakin' Lazy" members. Now, not that picking Shii-Ann or Erin to be booted first is so far off the "radar" that we somehow missed how they could possibly be a target. But MB is editing the show to point at Jed and Stephanie as the laziest people around. I thought that it was weird when Robb was sleeping outside with the two laziest people right after complaining about "The Importance of being Sheltered" It would seem that Robb's distaste for a couple of the "Fortress Five" is the main catalyst for that night under the rain-clouds. Just to add...Shii-Ann also has a snippet from EP1 videos, in which she mentions that the tribe is fighting alot, and when they are not fighting, they are not talking to each other. Although this is still early in the game. I firmly believe that no one is getting along with or talking to Shii-Ann, period. Therefore the most likely "first" boot from SookJai...."Freakin' Shii-Ann". This is of course, my opinion. Erin could still be the one that gets the first boot. Making her confessional about being picked last for the teams even more HUMBLING. Last in First to go. Maybe later I will attack the ChuayGahn editing. But for now Ghandia looks like a great pick to go next. With MB's editing as it is so far.But, can we really trust that?   Top

FesterFan1 5947 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 09-30-02, 04:37 PM (EST) 3. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" Scribe, I always love these analyses you do. I think our brains work alike, because I was thinking pretty much the same thing, but couldn't put it into a coherent post. As someone who has tried to spoil primarily by editing, I've been thinking about this for the better part of the day (don't tell my boss), and it seems that MB is a storyteller, but his stories are not ensemble pieces. He picks 2 or 3 story arcs that he likes, and he tells those. S1 was his first "story" and it just so happened that the stories that made for the best TV all came from the same tribe. Really, the only story that had consistency was Dicque's, but in telling his story we got "spin-offs" Rudy, Soozin, and (to a lesser degree) Kelly. S2 had Colby, Rodger & Elisabeth, Jerri and (until his nosedive) Michael. What did we really learn about Tina? Nothing, except how she saw and related to the primary characters. S3 had the Boran Alliance starring Lex and Tom (and Ethan as "The Winner") and The Samburu Age War. This was probably the easiest season to spoil via editing. Aside from the Witch Hunt and MamaKim's surprising last minute heroics, the story didn't deviate from the predictable. S4 had The Rise and Fall of the Rotu 4, Robfaddah's Journey to Self-Immolation, and the Redemption of Sean and Kathy. Interestingly, 3 of the Final 4 (including the Final 2) played supporting parts to these larger arcs. I don't even think I need to address Vecepia's low face time. It's been well covered. So in 2 of the 4 seasons, the winner has played a supporting role (at best) to the main stories of the season. Really, only in S1 was the editing about the winner. Ethan was no surprise, and got a good deal of face time, but anyone who thought Africa was about Ethan didn't really watch the show (and good for them). So what does this mean regarding editing as a spoiling tool? Well, certain themes have remained consistent. And I really can't do a better job of summarizing it than one Clown, Shakes the... "There are two main lessons to be learned from watching how Burn-it edits this show....first of all, the bootee always has face time in the preceding episode and second of all, Burn-it NEVER shows us a successful strategy until he absolutely has to." Point 1 has remained as good a rule of thumb as we've had (with the exception of Zoe, who just NEVER got substantial face time). Point 2 has also been true, but it's hard to determine where the ultimate successful strategy will be uncovered. At the time, I thought that Prince John's ramblings about the winner coming from the Rotu 4 in E6 was WAY too premature to be accurate. Sure enough, heads started to roll in E8. I guess what we can glean from this is that any mention of winning strategy prior to the merge is a death sentence for the utterer. Then again, he's likely to change his own rules. After all SeeBS's Thursday motto this season is "Keep You Guessing". Which on some small level is likely to be a nose-thumb at the spoiling community. Fester   Top

Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 09-30-02, 04:48 PM (EST) 4. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" Like you said, only two episodes in, it is hard to tell what MB's story might be this time around. But given what we know and/or suspect about these contestants and their longevity, a few observations: The young tribe has been winning challenges, but much in-fighting. Likely a lesson about teamwork in here, given that many believe a number of CG's go far. Those who cause trouble are gone. Likely candidates: Ghandia, Robb, Jed, Steph, Helen (when her usefulness has terminated (Jerri slot?) and maybe Shii (although she seems to be socializing better, maybe she is a victim of swap). I also agree with Sdawg that MB likes to lead away from the truth. I am strongly leaning towards a SJ pagonging and a GC winner (for now anyway!). So how will he do this? Of course no one but the devil himself (and his editing staff) really knows, but I anticipate continued emphasis on SJ physical strength, which will increase just before SJ loses its first TC. Could be this week, but will have to wait for more promos first to make up my mind on that. I also forsee a lot of crazy questions like: "can CG recover?" "Will there be a female alliance?" Now, the history of Survivor has made clear that the answer to these questions is almost always NO! But, given that history, might MB change it up to screw the spoilers and several of these answers are YES? It's always a surprise to the GP, or usually anyway, and I believe we up the ante every installment to encourage MB to do something new. In sum, if this makes any sense to anyone else, I forsee MB leading us away from the truth by leaving it in plain sight. (Kind of an SDawg theory combined with Occum's Razor) We will NOT expect this and he may employ it for at least the stretch of episodes between swap (if there is one) and when the pagonging begins, when the uncertainty is at its greatest.   Top

TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 09-30-02, 07:36 PM (EST) 5. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" Thank you Scribe, et al for helping me to focus my thinking on the editing. That and the little reminder about the Clown's rule: "Burn-it NEVER shows us a successful strategy until he absolutely has to." The editing of this last episode was most bizarre imho. Burnett is very good at two things: telling a story whether or not there is one to tell and including the scenery/environment as an active element in the tale. That whole long boring section, "Helen and Jan look for water" seemed out of place. I had chalked it up to his desire to show us the environment, get some snake shots, and build up a little false drama. In light of your reminder to look at the editing combined with the Clown's rule I suspect that he was taking up time NOT showing us what was going on with the purple team (I can't get those names). So suddenly we find odd folks sleeping on the beach, etc. It was all too disjointed, so Scribe I'm sure there is something -- conflict or more likely alliance building -- that he simply doesn't want to show us. Good catch !! Burnett really is amazing. We have so much distain for it all, but we keep watching.   Top

snoocharoo 1 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "American Cancer Society Spokesperson" 09-30-02, 08:21 PM (EST) 7. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" "Burnett really is amazing. We have so much distain for it all, but we keep watching." Like a flaming car wreck Tech Scribe, something has been bothering me since watching Ep.2 as well. I thought perhaps MB was conjuring up an Africa redeux but your post here made me scrutinize deeper. The actions were very disjointed in Ep.2 and we never really got a peek into life within the SJ tribe ( that is the purple team). Why? We've seen some much of life in CG's, them eating together, celebrating together, hanging out togther. We saw The SJ 5 go get some food, arguing about a shelter and bitching about each other. Robb (Dood)was very subdued this episode, he got little face time and poof all of a sudden he fades into the background. Also, no spoilers on him, which is strange as I consider him a memorable character. Come to think of it, other than the Jiffy Probe saying that Erin's knockers stayed big, I don't think there are any reliable spoilers on SJ's other than Ghandia's "stars" list, which is quickly losing credibility. So far we have been welcomed into the Chuay Guahn tribe, if what we see is not always what we get as the prevailing theme indicates, we may be in for a Sook Jai Final 4...including Dood. **shudders in disgust** EPMB is the master of smoke and mirrors, love him or hate him you have to give him props for that. He weaves a great story and personally I'm anxious to see what plays out. Snoocharoo   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 10-01-02, 12:46 PM (EST) 10. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" LAST EDITED ON 10-01-02 AT 12:50 PM (EST) I don't think there are any reliable spoilers on SJ's other than Ghandia's "stars" list, which is quickly losing credibility. I must disagree with you about Ghandia's "stars" list losing credibility. I think that her information has, to this point, been accurate. I think the "stars" list is the next best thing to "Debb's Friends" list, but it's up to us to correctly interpret the information into solid leads on the bootings. I also think that Ep. 2 did show some valuable insight into the PurplePeople. We've seen a 5-3 split, we've seen some ruffled feathers between personalities, we've seen Stephanie's illness, we've seen Shii Ann as the "narrator". Helen and Jan fetching water... that was a singularity. By that I mean that it was an event for this episode only, it was shown to create some suspense, and it was probably the biggest thing that happened in the three days covered by Ep. 2 (with the exception of the challenges, of course). Will it ever amount to more? Not yet, because Helen and Jan appear to be part of the same 5-person alliance. Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

Jims02 7407 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 09-30-02, 07:58 PM (EST) 6. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" I agree with all the statements before. Chuay Gahn's tribe has been featured already. We already know Clay has a beef with Helen and that Ghnadia's completely out of the loop. However, MB is getting creative with Sook Jai. He is being as vague as possible. Like others mentioned, MB shows Robb complaining about Jed in E1, but sleeping outside with him and Steffy in E2. What does this do? It confuses the audience of course!!! Now everyone is wondering who in that tribe is really safe. The "He said, she said" preview fits in with Shakes' guideline about leading away from the truth. Right now, Ghandia is in the lime-light. A lot of people are speculating about a Ghandia boot this week. However, this is not the merge. Ghandia and Ted's plot has absolutely nothing to do with the IC challenge. MB doesn't want us to realize that there is the possibility that this sideplot may not have anything to do with the bootee this week, which correlates perfectly with Shakes' guidelines. As I mentioned before, we have little information about the exact going-ons of Sook Jai. Doesn't this sound like a great opportunity to confuse and suspense (if that's a verb...) the audience when SJ goes to council. I'm not saying that SJ will definitely go to TC this week, but I am pointing out that the editing REALLY points to a Ghandia boot. (Right now, I'm leaning toward a Robb boot, according to the Smokers Theory) I'd love to hear feedback Quotes of the week 1. "You will NOT see my ta-ta's" -Shii Ann 2. "Do they think I'm too controlling?" -Helen (um, yeah)   Top

NightScribe 761 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent" 10-01-02, 10:58 AM (EST) 8. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" I'm leaning in that direction too Jim. I think the Ghandia thing will eventually explode, but not this week. She is the prominent focus of the previews (much like the Robfather previews last season -- when he wasn't that weeks's boot) because of the scandal, but I think her story has another episode in it. We also have Robb in the previews causing trouble and calling someone (Jed, I think) a whiny, weak punk. In my book, this makes Robb SJ enemy #1. Good discussion!   Top

ShowMeTheWinner 962 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent" 10-01-02, 03:22 PM (EST) 11. "RE: How Much Can Editing Help Us Spoil Survivor?" Yeah, I agree about the weird editing, especially with the Sook Jai team. There was a complete 180-degrees change in Robb's behavior-- we saw Robb, who was obsessed with the shelter in Episode 1, suddenly bonding with shelter-snubbers Jed and Steph in Episode 2. However, in Episode 2's previews we saw: Shii Ann, instead of Robb, with Jed and Steph. Not only is MB confusing the audience, he's confusing us, the spoilers too. I absolutely hate it when MB cheats! Kathy O'Brien... The Sole Survivor! (I'd rather be delusional)   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 10-01-02, 12:42 PM (EST) 9. "A few words on this issue" First, yes! I will discuss the "Hollow" theory... if you ask... If I say something that is said before, bear with me... I glanced over most of the messages in this thresd, but didn't memorize them. When MB edits a show, he first has to tell the story for THAT episode. Hence, in Ep. 1 we saw shelter-building, water-searching, tribe-selecting, etc. MB also "sets the table" for future stories. Showing Tanya throwing up was setting the table for her physical problems in Ep. 2. Sometimes MB employs the "hollow" theory to lead us away from the truth, but it also can be to lead into a new story. In Episode 2, we saw this: Ghandia, Clay and Ted in the water talking strategy, then a brief shot of Ted and Ghandia talking, her arm on his thigh. Now I knew already that Ted, Ghandia and Clay are going to have a spat and that she hates these men. So when I saw this, I immediately said "A-ha! This is leading to something!" And then we have previews showing that the promised Ep. 3 wars are going to occur. So these shots are "setting the table" for all that. Does it have to do with the boot? Well, that's not so sure for now. Some of you have commented on the disjointed state of the editing. I haven't felt that, because I'm seeing it in the context of one show at a time. As far as I can tell (and feel most very free to correct me), MB has not started to weave the big story yet. In S-4 he did begin weaving some major storylines: Kathy, Paschal/Neleh, Vecepia, Sean, etc. In S-III, MB did NOT really weave a big storyline early, and we were stunned when Jessie and Carl took early exits. So I'd say we're seeing a similar style to Survivor III as opposed to Survivor IV. Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 10-01-02, 04:20 PM (EST) 12. "RE: A few words on this issue" > >Some of you have commented on >the disjointed state of the >editing. I haven't felt >that, because I'm seeing it >in the context of one >show at a time. >As far as I can >tell (and feel most very >free to correct me), MB >has not started to weave >the big story yet. >In S-4 he did begin >weaving some major storylines: >Kathy, Paschal/Neleh, Vecepia, Sean, etc. > In S-III, MB did >NOT really weave a big >storyline early, and we were >stunned when Jessie and Carl >took early exits. > >So I'd say we're seeing a >similar style to Survivor III >as opposed to Survivor IV. > Very interesting observation. It may behoove us to note the expectations we had of the people MB chose to feature (S4) and not (S3). In S3, we did get a "storyline" early - but you are right, it wasn't the "big story" - the old v. young which evaporated with the switch. Possibly because Boran was so bleepin boring, but at any rate MB emphasized the losers early on and through the merge and even the beginning of the pagonging. Pretty much until they were gone... However, in S4, the early and long term emphasis was on Kathy, Vee/Sean(&Rob) and the Neleh/Paschal bond. IMO, the Robfadder and the Rotu 4 were clearly sub-stories from the outset, due to their intensity. Recall that very few if any of us really expected the motley crew that was the F5 to go far. Kathy and Sean in particular were constantly in danger of getting the boot. So in essence, he emphasized the "losers turned winners" as the big story. A very differnt tactic was necessary because the winner(s) of S3 were much more likely to be thought of as favorites and therefore required "hiding." So, if SDawg is on the right track with this edition being more similar in editing to S3 (and clearly more similar in boring quotient), we should be looking for the people NOT getting focus right now and those thought to be "favorites." First impressions: From CG -Brian, Ted (except for the juicy, too good to be told Ghandia plot, not a "main story" - note the intensity) and Clay as a hanger on, because he otherwise wouldn't be a "favorite.". From SJ - Jake, Ken & Penny. (wouldn't consider Erin a favorite, even though she has been as invisible as the others) Of course that list needs to be narrowed down and is just about stating the obvious, but as weeks go by and the S3-like editing continues, I think we can start weeding the list out. Thanks for this thread. It has made my little brain start churning.   Top

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