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AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 10:39 AM (EST) "The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" This was the fourth episode of Survivor. It was also the fourth time that we've had a vindictive b!tch on the jury. (Why do women choose to play this stereotypical role?) These women are so jealous that their friends made the final two that the fury of their jealousy consumes their reason. As their eyes glitter green (with envy), they make asinine statements against their friends and end up voting for their enemies (or, at least, less close friends) to win. EVERY TIME, the vindictive b!tch has voted for the winner. S1: Sue Hawk -- voted against her ally for the whole game, Kelly -- Richard won 4-3. S2: Jerri Manthey -- voted against her ally/love interest, Colby, in favor of Tina, who clearly hated her guts -- Tina won 4-3. S3: Kelly Goldsmith -- voted against her friend, Mama Kim (although it can be argued that she was almost as good of a friend with Ethan) -- Ethan won 5-2. S4: Tammy Leitner -- voted against her supposed friend Neleh in favor of Vee, with whom she was always at odds -- Vee won 4-3. So, here's a new spoiling key for S5: "pick the b!tch." If we know who the b!tch is, then we'll know who will win, by picking against the b!tch's closer friend in the F2.   Top

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror toddE 05-20-02 1    Ayak has a point Wacko Jacko 05-20-02 4        RE: Ayak has a point LilNik8 05-20-02 22            RE: Ayak has a point heymikey 05-21-02 38                RE: Ayak has a point LilNik8 05-21-02 41  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror MatineeIdol 05-20-02 2  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror katem 05-20-02 3    To katem AyaK 05-20-02 5    RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror LilNik8 05-20-02 23  Tammy is a hypocrite PagongRatEater 05-20-02 6    RE: Tammy/John/Robert are hypocrit... Teddy_Bear 05-20-02 26  Vindictive B*tch????? MikeD 05-20-02 7  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror SurvivinDawg 05-20-02 8    RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror George Tirebiter 05-20-02 13  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror zzz 05-20-02 9    Yes, but... AyaK 05-20-02 10        RE: Yes, but... Bebo 05-20-02 11            RE: Yes, but... LilNik8 05-20-02 24                RE: Yes, but... samiam 05-20-02 27                    Thanks Jesus LilNik8 05-20-02 28                        Oh, well, forgive me... samiam 05-20-02 29                            RE: Oh, well, forgive me... LilNik8 05-21-02 42                                RE: Oh, well, forgive me... samiam 05-21-02 44        RE: Yes, but... zzz 05-20-02 12            RE: Yes, but... fyrenice 05-20-02 15        RE: Yes, but... true 05-20-02 16        RE: Yes, AyaK, but... SurvivinDawg 05-20-02 19            Agree AyaK 05-20-02 32        RE: Yes, but... dabo 05-22-02 45  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror fyrenice 05-20-02 14    RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror In The Woods 05-20-02 17  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror samboohoo 05-20-02 18  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror leadballoon 05-20-02 20  A new thought zzz 05-20-02 21    RE: A new thought LilNik8 05-20-02 25        RE: A new thought erikman 05-20-02 30            RE: A new thought SurvivinDawg 05-20-02 33  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror TechNoir 05-20-02 31    RE: The "Vindictive Bastard" Juror Teddy_Bear 05-20-02 34        Just to add my 2 cents Mitrelleum 05-21-02 36    Amen, sistah! George Tirebiter 05-21-02 40  RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror Outfrontgirl 05-21-02 35    RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror SurvivinDawg 05-21-02 37        RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror Outfrontgirl 05-21-02 39            RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror erikman 05-21-02 43

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toddE 1433 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Beef Jerky Spokesperson" 05-20-02, 10:43 AM (EST) 1. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" I must disagree that Tammy was a vindictive bee-yutch. I'd say she seemed equally friendly with Vee and Neleh. I also must agree that neither of them really "deserved" to win like Kathy, and that of the two, Vee was more "deserving." I don't really think Jerri was "vindictive" either, though she was certainly a Bee--tch.   Top

Wacko Jacko 2438 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model" 05-20-02, 10:57 AM (EST) 4. "Ayak has a point" I wish I could remember Jerri's speech at Survivor 2 better. I do disagree though with go against the Bee-yatch's closer friend. With Kelly and Tammy neither were their closer friends. When was Tammy and Neleh ever friends? As for Kim J and Kelly they were early on but not to the extent that Ethan got a free ride because of it. Kelly hated both and picked Ethan only because Ethan got closer to the number Kelly had chosen. Face it, most of the Jury members are jealous because someone else out tricked them and also voted them out. Shame on Tammy. She would of done the same as neleh and is a hypocrit for giving her that earful last night.   Top

LilNik8 195 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-20-02, 05:42 PM (EST) 22. "RE: Ayak has a point" >Shame on Tammy. She would >of done the same as >neleh and is a hypocrit >for giving her that earful >last night. Exactly. Every single person on that jury was a hypocrite and they all lied and cheated to get their way to the top. The problem is, they failed. They condemned Vee and Neleh because they are religious and they shouldn't have lied or cheated because they are religious. BS! Shame on this site also for attempting to condemn Vee because of her religious beliefs and her winning. None of us are without sin, even if you go to Church three times a week. It's a game man and Vee did what she had to do to win and she did it well. She flew under the radar till the last possible moment and made her strike and won. It's the same thing that Tina did except she wasn't religious like Vee. I'm not sure if everyone is jealous of them because their female or because they are smart. I didn't care for Neleh but congrats to both her and Vee for Outplaying everyone...they deserved the final two. I liked Kathy and I wanted her to win more than Vee, but she lost because she didn't play the game like Vee did. This is a game of deception...don't get your feelings hurt! *~*Nicole*~*   Top

heymikey 238 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star" 05-21-02, 02:49 PM (EST) 38. "RE: Ayak has a point" >>> Every single person on that jury was a hypocrite and they all lied and cheated to get their way to the top How are they a hypocrite when they admitted that they lied and deceited people? Vee and Neleh are the true hypocrites. They would lie and yet would have a "holier than thou" attitude and just pretend that nothing happened.   Top

LilNik8 195 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-21-02, 07:07 PM (EST) 41. "RE: Ayak has a point" >>>> Every single person on that jury was a hypocrite and they all lied and cheated to get their way to the top > > >How are they a hypocrite when >they admitted that they lied >and deceited people? Vee >and Neleh are the true >hypocrites. They would lie >and yet would have a >"holier than thou" attitude and >just pretend that nothing happened. > Vee also admitted to lying. The Rotu alliance condemned them for making it to the final two by lying, yet they did the same thing. It's hypocritical. They can throw any justification to their accusations, but they're still being hypocritical nonetheless. We all would have lied and cheated our way to the top...that's the underlying point to the game. *~*Nicole*~*   Top

MatineeIdol 104 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-20-02, 10:52 AM (EST) 2. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" I don't think her statement was actually that vindictive considering who the final two were. She got to say what a lot of people were probably thinking. I give Tammy a big "You Go Girl". Did anyone else notice how much Tammy looked like a younger Sigourney Weaver???   Top

katem 3315 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Car Show Celebrity" 05-20-02, 10:54 AM (EST) 3. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" AK, you cannot forget that some of these people felt betrayed by their so-called friends. Sue was clearly at odds with Kelly. Kelly went back and forth, in and out of the alliance and then went on to vote Sue out. Was Sue's rat and snake speech harsh? Yes, but I cannot say Kelly did not deserve some of Sue's anger. In S2, Colby lied to Jerri's face, she never lied to him. He deceived her on purpose to then boot her from the game. Did she deserve to leave the game? Yes, but that does not change the fact that Colby boldly lied to her face and to Amber as well. In S3, Kelly and Kim were supposedly a tandem, and when Lex became paranoid, he unjustly made a move to boot Kelly and Kim used this as an opportunity to get ahead in the game. Some friend she was. In S4, Neleh dumped the Rotu 4 when she did not like the agreement that she had made with Tammy and the rest. If she did not like it, why make it in the first place. I believe Tammy's anger was mostly that Neleh would hide behind her religion to get ahead, she did 'till the very end, prompting John to also vote for Vee, who granted was also a "Bible-thumper" at least she admitted it. In conclusion, the four women that have made a nasty speech to their so called "friends" all made them because of a sense of betrayal from someone that they had truly trusted, and that anger is a little tough to shake. Were the right in being that nasty? In my opinion, no. They just set themselves up to be the "vindictive #####" juror, the sour grapes, but I can understand their resentment.   Top

AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 11:06 AM (EST) 5. "To katem" I don't want to debate the substance of the speeches here, just point out the phenomenon so that we can use it for future spoiling. I'll have more to say about Tammy's comments (which struck me as the stupidest speech in the history of Survivor) on Bashers.   Top

LilNik8 195 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-20-02, 05:45 PM (EST) 23. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" > >In conclusion, the four women that >have made a nasty speech >to their so called "friends" >all made them because of >a sense of betrayal from >someone that they had truly >trusted, and that anger is >a little tough to shake. > That's their own bad for being foolish and trusting anyone. *~*Nicole*~*   Top

PagongRatEater 12996 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 11:59 AM (EST) 6. "Tammy is a hypocrite" LAST EDITED ON 05-20-02 AT 12:01 PM (EST) I thought her little self-serving rant last night was really very sorry. She had not problem at all "playing the game" when she was in the majority alliance, but when all of a sudden the sheep didn't want to go to the slaughter Tammy found her integrity. Several jurors took this tack last night and I thought it was pathetic and just plain old jealousy. Based on the critiria of who played with more integrity - or as Tammy put it "who lied the least" - then Neleh should have been the run-away winner. She made one shift in the game and any objective observer would think it was the smart move. Vee was all over the place and pretty much screwd everyone in the game. I was shocked that Vee won and VERY disappointed to see such an undeserving winner. There is a difference between being the biggest liar and the best game player - but this bunch of "knuckleheads" on the jury couldn't figure that out. As to your theory AyaK - I guess the closer the friend was, the bigger the percieved betrayal. This could be a good thing to keep in mind for all future juries, since I was surprised at almost everyone's vote last night except Paschal and Sean.   Top

Teddy_Bear 1675 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall" 05-20-02, 06:37 PM (EST) 26. "RE: Tammy/John/Robert are hypocrites" I completely agree with everything you had to say PRE. While I completley understand where Sean was coming from; J/T/R have got to be the most bitter, hyppocritical, moronic, jurors in Survivor history. Yes, no one deserved to win more than Kathy, but that descision was out of the jurors' hands; they had to choose between the more deserving of the two finalists, which would be Neleh; so what does the pivital members, J/R/T, of the Sour Grapes jury do?, they vote for probably the 2nd most undeserving contestant (Zoe, being the 1st), of all 16 of the castaways. AyaK I also agree with you comments regarding Tammy's speech. She states what most members of the jury and the viewers believe to be true; that Kathy deserved to win. She then goes on to call Benedict Vee for stabbing the most deserving woman in the back, and what does she do? She, as well as feloww lunatics, John and Robert--in accordance with your theory--votes for the most deserving woman's betrayer, Veesus, in order to punish, her/their friend Neleh. AyaK whille I agree with your theories reagarding Season's 1,2, and 4, I feel that s3 is the exception; Ethan would have won with or without Kelly Goldsmith's vote. I also disagree with you that she is a vindictive b!tch. Lex unfairly, as a result of his narcissitic paronoia, wrongly cheated her out of a chance to win the $1,000,000. As Jeff Probst supposedly said, she was penalised for a vote she NEVER cast. Kelly was s3's main casualty or victim, not a vindictive b!tch. Kim Johnson did not come to her defense, even though she thought Lex was wrong; furthermore Kelly G. employed the same ludicrous, pick a number method as s1's Greg Buis. She only voted for Ethan because he aparently guessed the correct number of the room, of her favourite film, The Graduate. The theory does hold, however, the remaining 3 seasons. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Jiffy Probe: The jury is all wearing black? Do you think this means anything? Facts may weaken under extreme heat and pressure. | Light a Virtual Candle Eleanor Roosevelt: No one can make YOU feel inferior without YOUR consent!   Top

MikeD 344 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host" 05-20-02, 12:15 PM (EST) 7. "Vindictive B*tch?????" Didnt she just state the obvious and, more importantly, end her "rant" with a "congratulations" and her admiration? Strange that you guys thought this was b*tchy...   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 12:23 PM (EST) 8. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" Interesting thread, AyaK, and it may be of interest in future shows as spoiler value. I would say, though, that I didn't consider S-III's Kelly to be in this catagory, not like Sue Hawk and Tammy. Jerri didn't really rant at the Final TC, either... she asked a question if either had something they felt guilty about. Tina threw it back in her face by bringing up the Kel/backpack incident (and Jerri's look of "oh crap, I did open her up for that" was priceless), and Colby said he regretted not being able to take Rodger and Lis further (or something like that). Jerri was looking for an apology and didn't get it. Sue Hawk really was betrayed, and her feelings were understandable. And her speech was quite memorable and effective. Tammy, however, was just plain hateful and vindictive. She got whipped and couldn't bear it. In fact, she even started her speech with "I was going to lie, do whatever it takes..." etc.. okay, b!+ch, then what's your problem? Tammy stared daggers at everyone while she was on the Jury. I'm surprised she even showed up at the Reunion show. "Pappy, you smuggled! I'm so proud of you!" -- Neleh Dennis *** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

George Tirebiter 2982 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Howard Stern Show Guest" 05-20-02, 02:48 PM (EST) 13. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" I'm not sure "vindictive" is the right word--my sense was not so much that she (or John or Robert) was as angry about not being the ones sitting there as they were about HOW the F2 got there. . . by employing the very tactics they decried--and worst of all, in the name of "Christianity!" WWJD? I think even he would've wanted to puke on them. As for the Spoiling possibilities for the future? I just hope someone has the presence of mind to recall Aya's theory next fall, because it does seem to have some merit. GT Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret.   Top

zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 05-20-02, 01:10 PM (EST) 9. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" The thing about Tammy's speeh was that it was the truth. Sue, while amusing, when way overboard (essentially saying that Kelly W. deserved to die). Kelly G. was just an idiot with her speech. I actually don't remember Jerri's speech (must not have been that interesting). Tammy on the other hand, told the cold hard truth. Now maybe if she had nothing good to say she should have said nothing (if you subscribe to that school of thought). But I could not find one part of her speech that I did not agree with. They were hypocrites. They did lie. Everyone did think that Kathy deserved the $1 million. Tammy just said what pretty much everyone thinks but did not say (other than Pappy who just thinks everyone is so wonderful--how full of it he is). So did she sound bitter--maybe. But was is true and deserved--definitely.   Top

AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 01:55 PM (EST) 10. "Yes, but..." LAST EDITED ON 05-20-02 AT 02:13 PM (EST) ...my point is really that these women harbor a HUGE grudge. Each was so convinced that she was going to win that, when she fails to win, she votes for a person who detested her rather than for her former ally. Tina showed how much she disliked Jerri by throwing Jerkygate at her, but Jerri still voted for her. Vee and Sean were Rob's allies in trying to blow up the Rotu 4; Neleh was only pushed to vote with them when John, Tammy and Robert told her and Pappy that the best they would be given was 5th and 6th, PERIOD. Kelly W. just didn't want to vote out her friends Jenna and Colleen; Sean K.(whom she voted for) wasn't ever part of their alliance -- Sue just seemed to have her feelings hurt that Kelly W. didn't want to be exclusively her "special friend." In my opinion, the only one who had a legitimate complaint was Kelly G., at least based upon what we saw during the game -- her alliance incorrectly branded her a traitor based upon Lex's malfunctioning "gut," and you'd expect your close friend Kim to stick with you when you were falsely accused. P.S. The fact that Kathy may have played S4 the best never enters into it, because Kathy wasn't one of the final 2. The only way you can deserve to win is to reach the final 2. Ask Lex.   Top

Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 02:19 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Yes, but..." ...my point is really that these women harbor a HUGE grudge. Each was so convinced that she was going to win that, when she fails to win, she votes for a person who detested her rather than for her former ally. And she differed from Robert...how? He of the "direct answer only" cutoffs. Our household liked Tammy's statements -- she was calling the hypocrites the hypocrites. Tammy wasn't the one hiding behind Jesus and trying to pretend she was being honest, she flat-out told people she knew that deceit was a part of the game. Rude snot fluent in Sarcastic...and those are my good points. 'Canes Rock! Beat Canada!   Top

LilNik8 195 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-20-02, 05:58 PM (EST) 24. "RE: Yes, but..." > >Our household liked Tammy's statements -- >she was calling the hypocrites >the hypocrites. Tammy wasn't >the one hiding behind Jesus >and trying to pretend she >was being honest, she flat-out >told people she knew that >deceit was a part of >the game. Vee lied. Nobody is going to deny that. BUT, (I think Tammy pointed this out as well) she apologized (to god and the people she betrayed) and asked God for forgiveness for everything bad that she did in this game--she admitted that what she did to Kathy was wrong...is that not the "Godly" thing to do? Doesn't God forgive you if you apologize and ask for forgiveness? I'm not a fan of Christian theology, but I think that Vee was as Christian as she could be in this game. *~*Nicole*~*   Top

samiam 5976 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 07:10 PM (EST) 27. "RE: Yes, but..." Hey, I killed somebody yesterday. I planned to do it, I knew I had to do it, and then I did it. But it was all part of a game, and afterwards, I asked everyone to forgive me. Does that fly? No? Lying is not the same as murder, you say? Hmm...the 10 Commandments include both. And -- funny thing -- it matters not the SCALE of the sin you commit...a "little" sin gets you as far away from God and His holiness as a "big" sin. Anything else is simple situational rationalization. Yes, the nice thing about Christianity is that you CAN be forgiven from sin, if you ask...however, that would be IF you ask with a repentant heart. I do NOT think this includes lying "in the game" (like God makes a distinction there), planning to do so, and executing it, KNOWING full well that you are PLANNING to ask for forgiveness afterwards to make it all okay. One of the basic tenets of Christianity is to act as you think Jesus would have, in all situations...to attempt to be as Christlike as possible. This includes playing games. If you think a game is going to require you to lie, and lying is against your ethics, don't play. Do NOT attempt to play, and then figure out a way that it can still fit into your moral framework later. Amazing how hiding behind Christianity and forgiveness and that whole bit can substitute for accepting responsibility for your own actions. "As Christian as she could be in this game?" Is that like "as pregnant as you can be in the first trimester?" "You are a fluke of the Universe. You have no right to be here. And whether you can hear it or not, the Universe is laughing behind your back." - Tony Hendra, Deteriorata   Top

LilNik8 195 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-20-02, 07:14 PM (EST) 28. "Thanks Jesus" but I didn't ask for a Christian lesson... if I wanted one, I would have attended church yesterday. *~*Nicole*~*   Top

samiam 5976 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 07:28 PM (EST) 29. "Oh, well, forgive me..." BUT...she admitted that what she did to Kathy was wrong...is that not the "Godly" thing to do? Doesn't God forgive you if you apologize and ask for forgiveness? Silly me, I thought you were asking because you were actually interested in an answer. My bad, apparently. "You are a fluke of the Universe. You have no right to be here. And whether you can hear it or not, the Universe is laughing behind your back." - Tony Hendra, Deteriorata I'm Jesus? Holy shite! Do they make robes in vinyl and fishnet?   Top

LilNik8 195 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-21-02, 07:11 PM (EST) 42. "RE: Oh, well, forgive me..." >BUT...she admitted that what she did >to Kathy was wrong...is that >not the "Godly" thing to >do? Doesn't God forgive you >if you apologize and ask >for forgiveness? > >Silly me, I thought you were >asking because you were actually >interested in an answer. >My bad, apparently. Rhetorical Question...I wasn't looking for an answer. Sorry that you were confused, I figured that the stylistic device was evident. *~*Nicole*~*   Top

samiam 5976 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-21-02, 08:31 PM (EST) 44. "RE: Oh, well, forgive me..." Well, the next time I pray, I'll ask for a "sarcasm detector" for you. 'Kay? *smile* "You are a fluke of the Universe. You have no right to be here. And whether you can hear it or not, the Universe is laughing behind your back." - Tony Hendra, Deteriorata   Top

zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 05-20-02, 02:41 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Yes, but..." , she votes for >a person who detested her >rather than for her former >ally. > > OK--as you have noted in this thread--there are two separate points--spoiling value and legitimacy of the grudge. For spoiler value--I think it reinforces something that has been stated around here since at least S2. That is--if you betray someone, you will NOT get his or her vote (unless the other person betrayed them more). I think we have generally tried to keep this in mind, and I think the votes here were consistent with that theory. As to the substative point, I am not sure that they voted for some "who detested her" rather than an ally. I'll take them one by one. Susan--she felt betrayed by Kelly W. I basically agree that this feeling was overblow because if Sue had not "kicked her out" of the alliance, Kelly probably would have stayed loyal in the final 4 vote. Nevetheless, Rich did not destest Sue. They were allies the entire game and Rich only voted against her when the alliance met its inevitable end at final 4 (with Kelly having immunity). Rich showed more concern for Sue than Kelly did. I don't think she voted against an ally for an enemy at all in this case. Jerri--she was allied with both Colby and Tina, but more closely with Colby. Colby lied to Jerri and betrayed her. Tina did not, although she did not have the opportunity to do so--if she did maybe she would have lied as well. But Colby was the one who really betrayed Jerri. So even if Tina may have shown her distaste for Jerri--Colby showed even more. Colby totally used her (what is that they say about hell, fury and a scorned woman). Colby even agreed to put his alliance at risk for the benefit of getting rid of Jerri 3 days sooner. So if Tina disliked Jerri--Jerri had reason to believe that Colby disliked her as much if not more--and he was the one that lied to her and betrayed her. Those sound like pretty good reasons to vote for Tina to me. Kelly G--it seems we are in total agreement. Ethan may have had no use for Kelly--but KimJ showed even more contempt because Kelly had reason to believe KimJ knew Kelly better and would stick up for her. Tammy--why do you think Neleh liked Tammy any more than Vee did? Neleh said she regretted not taking Robert and Zoe instead of Vee and Sean to the end. She said nothing about wanting to take Tammy and/or John further. Neleh made it clear she had comtempt for those 2. Vee may have also betrayed Tammy--but not as directly. It is not clear to me whether Paschal and Neleh were really told they would get no further than final 5 and 6 at the time the original deal was made--but they probably should have asked exactly what the deal was before agreeing. I don't think V detested Tammy. Tammy was just in her way. Neleh showed nothing but contempt for Tammy. So again--I think Tammy was totally justified in her vote. The lesson to future players should be that if you make someone a promise and then change your mind (for whatever reason)--don't expect to get that person's vote on the jury. That really is the advantage of an UTR approach. For example, Ethan let Lex do the dirty work. That is why I think Ethan deserved to win--that was very smart strategy.   Top

fyrenice 91 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square" 05-20-02, 03:07 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Yes, but..." It is >not clear to me whether >Paschal and Neleh were really >told they would get no >further than final 5 and >6 at the time the >original deal was made--but they >probably should have asked exactly >what the deal was before >agreeing. They were told that they were going to vote out Sean, Vee and Kathy then form alliances. They said no alliances were made at this point. This discussion was shown on the way to the waterfall. Their own pride at IC led to their downfall. In a way you could say they showed that they had no intention of keeping their end of the bargain. So why should Neleh and Pappy. I don't think >V detested Tammy. Tammy >was just in her way. > Neleh showed nothing but >contempt for Tammy. So >again--I think Tammy was totally >justified in her vote. > Contempt!!! If you had just had that thrown in your face, would you have said you were going to save Tammy and Robert. Besides she was playing smart. Those two might possibly have been more willing to swing her way. > That is why I >think Ethan deserved to win--that >was very smart strategy. Ethan deserved to win because he let others do the work. However, Vee and Neleh did not because of the same fact. I confess I do not get it.   Top

true 9689 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 03:36 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Yes, but..." AyaK, I see what you are saying, but I don't agree with your assessment of how Tammy viewed Vee and Neleh. I pegged Tammy to vote for Vee over Neleh, because I never saw Tammy and Neleh as allies (or friends). I did however see Vee bonding with Tammy several times throughtout the show. At one point, people were even speculating that Tammy and Vee were the secret alliance. Remember all the hair braiding, the background shots of Tammy and Vee, hiding out together, while Rob and Sean created all that drama. I think Tammy voted for Vee because, it was Neleh and Paschal that she approached to stay in the game, and THEY were the ones that completely shut her down. So, yes, she did harbor more resentment toward Neleh, than Vee. IMO, that's only part of the reason why Vee got her vote, and Robert's too. It was clear from interviews with Tammy and Robert that they would vote for the one who played the best game, not the one they thought was sweet, or friendly. So yes, they got burned by Neleh, and maybe their grudge figured into it. But, I find it hard to argue that Neleh played better than Vee. (that's a whole other discussion) Tammy's speech did come off as bitter, but, she stated exactly what I was thinking. She may not have liked either choice, but she did vote for the one that had to play harder to survive. Neleh admitted she wasn't playing til the end, Vee came over in the swap, clearly outnumbered. (even if she lasted by hiding behind Rob and Sean) I think Tammy's vote rewarded the better player of the two, more than it was a vote against Neleh. IMO, an easier spoiler tool would be to watch for the person that is NEVER shown strategizing. No winner since Rich Hatch, has had their strategy revealed until the very end, if at all. Tina's strategy was hidden til the end, and Ethan never really had one. Vee has just reached the top of the list. Hell, I know more about Hunters strategy than Vees. My new spoiler strategy, if I ever watch this crapola again, will be to FOLLOW THE BAD EDITING. ~ true True friends stab you in the front -Oscar Wilde   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 04:06 PM (EST) 19. "RE: Yes, AyaK, but..." Actually, AyaK, I totally see your point, and in the case of Tammy I totally agree with it. My only point above was that we've only truly seen this with Susan Hawk and Tammy Leitner (and the General). Susan, I could understand, and I always had the feeling she embellished her speech for (successful) effect on the rest of the Jury. But I was surprised by the sheer level and intensity of the hatred that Tammy showed after she was voted off. And ditto that for the General, proving that it's not limited to women. Gutwrenching, eating-at-their-insides hatred was what I saw from Tammy and Da General every time they seated themselves on Jury stools. I agree that if we see something of this nature in S-5, we should monitor it carefully as a clue to what might happen towards the end. Purple-rock drawings notwithstanding, that is. "Pappy, you smuggled! I'm so proud of you!" -- Neleh Dennis *** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 09:14 PM (EST) 32. "Agree" Dawg, my original post related to the voting, not the comments at TC. In fact, I completely agree with you about Sue and Tammy. I actually thought that Jerri trying so hard to get Colby to apologize to her, which he had no intention of doing, was a little pathetic. I also agree that there is a difference between Richard and Susan and Tammy and Vee. Richard liked Susan; he just preferred Rudy. And I totally agree that Robert was equally as big of a bozo. (Honk!) In fact, the Rotu 3 (Tammy, Robert, John) are probably the biggest babies that have ever appeared on Survivor. (Waaaaaaah! They stole our million, and we even promised them fifth and sixth place! Meanies!) But that's still more of a Basher point than a Spoiler one. Oh well, at least it's over.   Top

dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-22-02, 01:50 AM (EST) 45. "RE: Yes, but..." >...my point is really that these >women harbor a HUGE grudge. LOL! I have worked in hospitals for quite awhile now, where the female employee population traditionally vastly outnumbers the male employee population, and there's a joke that sometimes comes up which is accurate as hee. What do women and elephants have in common? They never forget. And, speaking as a man who has been married for far longer than a coon's age, I can avouch for the truth of that sentiment. Getting serious, though, I think the value in this goes to MB's "casting" Survivor rather than having a selection process geered to identify the best 16 to play the game. MB isn't running a game show, ultimately, but creating a spectacle for our enjoyment. That said, I doubt if anyone will ever top Sue Hawk's vultures-snakes-rats speech from S1, but we can expect that they will keep trying. >P.S. The fact that Kathy >may have played S4 the >best never enters into it, >because Kathy wasn't one of >the final 2. The >only way you can deserve >to win is to reach >the final 2. Ask >Lex. Agreed. Vee could never have won against Kathy, any more than Neleh would have. Vee's mistake (though she won in the end) was in striking the deal with Neleh and then falling back on God's forgiveness (bad representin' there, Vee). It would have been much smarter of her had she simply started a discussion about either of their chances of winning against Kathy, and then jumping out when it was clear that the point had been made, without bargaining against her word. That would have been obvious as well, but at least she would have been able to play it on her having had no chance of beating Neleh in that challenge, instead of making Jesus her cop-out fall guy. ARRRRRRR!!!!   Top

fyrenice 91 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square" 05-20-02, 02:56 PM (EST) 14. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" Good point! I was thinking the same thing last night. It does not pay to get on the bad side of the witch with minions. Lets see if this will make a difference on S5 since until last night I was not sure who was going to be the Vindictive Witch. A couple thoughts although this should probably be on bashers. When did Neleh hide her actions behind her religion? The only hiding behind religion was Vee with her hypocritical I just ask the Lord for forgiveness after the fact speech. Neleh just seemed to be trying to live her faith - not hide behind it. She tried to play honestly. I say she did pretty well. She only broke one promise to stay in the game. Others did much more than that. Next- why should Neleh apologize for making one move to save her skin? It was ok for everyone else to lie and cheat, but not Neleh. Did she really think she was going to roll over and die. That speech was green with jealousy. Yeh! You could say everything she said was true ( I disagree), but you cannot say it was said to speak the facts. It was said because someone is a real sore loser. Even Rosie last night had nothing more to say to Tammy than agree that she should get counseling.   Top

In The Woods 55 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square" 05-20-02, 03:52 PM (EST) 17. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" I definatly feel the spoiling value for next season is relevent. I guess my opinion on the speech is, what good did it do? OK, so other people felt it and she said it. Did anyone change there vote because of it? I guess we won't know, but I would think people pretty much had there minds made up before going in, maybe with the exception of John. Tammy made a lasting impression, unfortunatly a negative one. If, and only if you are using Survivor as a springboard to something else, where is Tammy going from here? Probably to Counseling. Just my opinion. See you guys next season In The Woods   Top

samboohoo 17173 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 03:56 PM (EST) 18. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" I agree Ayak with your description of Tammy, and let's not forget to include John and Robert in there too. They are definate sore losers. I hope they realize that whereas everyone wanted to at least make the jury, they were all there to win the million. It's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. John is still crying about not lying to people, well John didn't exactly tell the truth either. Tammy, Robert and John all withheld the truth. The truth was they were planning to use Neleh and Pashcal to get rid of the others and then they were going to dump them too, and I don't recall them saying to N/P, "By the way, once we dump S/V/K, you're gone too."   Top

leadballoon 16 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson" 05-20-02, 04:11 PM (EST) 20. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" If I remember correctly. I believe I saw vid caps and footage of Tammy and Vee standing together in the back ground at times. Not much do I remember of Tammy and Neleh occupying the same space. From personal experience I have to agree with Tammy's assessment of the religion accusation. I just believe everyone has to accept their own responsibility and take it like a man/woman without passing the buck or justifying it. When Rob M. was booted Neleh stuck with the agreement and Vee waffled. It was when the Rotu4 were chopping coconut ropes and reveiled the pecking order. I would have too been moved with uneasyness. Their blatant show arrogance was way too obvious. Neleh waffled and Vee waffled again. When Kathy and Vee were in agreement, Vee waffled one more time sending Kathy home. In summary: I agree with Tammy's speech. I don't agree with Tammy's vote. Then again, there is nothing written that says the lest deceitful should win or the most deceitful should either. It would be interesting to see the number of times these people waffled from their agreements through the course of the show. All in all I did like the editing. It kept us working and brought in some very creative and colorful ideas. As for the contestants. They could've brought 15 people and then flip over a rock for the 16th person. That way Zoe could have stayed home and not wasted our time. Congrats to you all and thanks for the brain food.   Top

zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 05-20-02, 05:11 PM (EST) 21. "A new thought" One thing has occurred to me as I have been reading through the threads. One way to combat the "vindictive b!tch" is to apologize. I think that Jerri, Kelly G perhaps Tammy (definitely John--can we call him a b!tch?) and perhaps even Sue might have been swayed by an apology. So if a future contestant on Survivor is reading this, if you get to the finals--try your best to sound like you are sincerely sorry for your backstabbing ways and beg for forgiveness (but you have to make it sound believable).   Top

LilNik8 195 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 05-20-02, 06:11 PM (EST) 25. "RE: A new thought" >One thing has occurred to me >as I have been reading >through the threads. One >way to combat the "vindictive >b!tch" is to apologize. >I think that Jerri, Kelly >G perhaps Tammy (definitely John--can >we call him a b!tch?) >and perhaps even Sue might >have been swayed by an >apology. > >So if a future contestant on >Survivor is reading this, if >you get to the finals--try >your best to sound like >you are sincerely sorry for >your backstabbing ways and beg >for forgiveness (but you have >to make it sound believable). > I'm not sure if it is even an apology they want because they may not feel that you are sincere. One reason that Vee got John's vote is that she admitted that she lied and backstabbed to get where she was. She answered his questions honestly. I also think that's another reason why she received Tammy's vote as well. *~*Nicole*~*   Top

erikman 324 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host" 05-20-02, 08:58 PM (EST) 30. "RE: A new thought" the worst thing is john and robert and i think tammy went to nelehs house. if it was me and i had those strong persnal fealings i would stay away. tammy and robert still looked mad at the reunion show what hypacrats   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 09:28 PM (EST) 33. "RE: A new thought" I believe Robert (The General) did stay away from Neleh's. And who knows what happened at the party, Tammy, John and Zoe may have stayed apart. But I'll bet that Pappy was a soothing and uniting influence on everyone at that bash, so probably it was cordial at worst. "Pappy, you smuggled! I'm so proud of you!" -- Neleh Dennis *** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

TechNoir 9741 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-20-02, 08:59 PM (EST) 31. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" I am way puzzled by this notion, AyaK. Are you saying that Zoe isn't a vindictive b!tch or that Neleh or Vee wouldn't have been if either of them had been on the jury? By your definition John and the General are certainly vindictive b!tches. As a matter of fact about everyone but Pap fits that category and he was too out of it to know the difference. And Jerri voted in favor of Tina, who hated Jerri. Um, I'm very confused about what makes a player a vindictive b!tch. I think that almost anyone capable of getting along that far in the game has the qualities you mention, so almost anyone would qualify. Or do you mean women who speak their minds? Any of us might say what we really think given the right circumstances.... 60 Pixel Series, No. 2 "Sweetie, if you're not living on the edge, then you're taking up space..." Flo Kennedy   Top

Teddy_Bear 1675 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall" 05-20-02, 10:45 PM (EST) 34. "RE: The "Vindictive Bastard" Juror" I agree with you TechNoir, as Kelly G. pointed out at the s3 reunion, Survivor tends to categorize women; ie., America's sweetheart, the woman scorned, the mother type, etc. The vindictive b!tch could just as easily be male: Sean Kenniff and Greg Buis from s1, Brandon and Tom from s3, and John and Robert from s4; I didn't include any examples from s2, cuz I couldn't think of any male bitches from that season, whose votes could be seen in anyway as vindictive. While some of the losers are real losers--re: vindictive, some castoffs are just voting their choice. I also think it is important to distinguish between contestants who had legitmate beefs such as Kathy and Kelly G.; who (Kathy) voted for her friend Neleh anyway, and (Kelly G.'s) vote was decided by a random close guess--if Kim J, or Kelly Wigglesworth, had guessed correctly it would have altered one single vote in s3 and changed the entire game in s1. And Sore Losers ie., Sue Hawk, Sean Keniff, Greg, Jerri Manthey, Brandon and Tom; who were understandably upset at their loss, but really had no one, but themselves and/or luck to blame. Kelly G. and Kathy both got screwed over, Kelly by mistake, and Kathy intentionally. I have a difficult time characterising either of them as being vindictive. John/Tammy/Robert, are on the other hand pathetic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did he (John) not actually say to Neleh sarcastically, you just couldn't settle for 5th or 6th place, could you?. Neleh has some nerve after going to all the trouble of sending in her audition tape, leaving her family to go to some remote location with unknown conditions; to actually try to win this game. Give me a break!!! Didn't he (John) boot Gabe's @$$ off of the island because he (Gabe) refused to screw anybody over? John probably had difficulty sharing his toys as a kid. Next season, Burn-it should maybe do what they do in real juries--Jury/and, or better contestant screening, to weed out idiots who let their emotions overpower any sense of reason or common sense. Could you imagine a real juror saying, what the defendant did is clearly breaking the law, but I'll acquit him/her just because I feel like it? I know that Survivor is just a game--praise Veesus, and some people may find any comparison ludicrous; however, if EPMB wants to maintain loyal viewership; stupid jury votes--like this one--will ultimately cost him ratings, so it does matter. Maybe Jiffy should seriously consider going back to hosting Rock"n'Roll Jeopardy, {sigh}. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Rob Mariano: Hunter, have you stopped crying already? Facts may weaken under extreme heat and pressure. | Light a Virtual Candle Eleanor Roosevelt: No one can make YOU feel inferior without YOUR consent!   Top

Mitrelleum 257 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star" 05-21-02, 02:26 AM (EST) 36. "Just to add my 2 cents" Has anyone considered that Vee had to play harder because she was constantly on the underdog side? The fact that she made it to the final 2 after most of us assumed she would get pagonged in 8th place is amazing. It was easier for Neleh, because she was always in a more comfortable position than Vee. That is why I think Vee deserved to win over Neleh. She had to play a tougher game. And for my opinion on Vee's use of the big JC in her game, please see my post in bashers called "In defense of Vee" I have a very strong argument, that I think is very poignant. But of course Kathy should have won.   Top

George Tirebiter 2982 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Howard Stern Show Guest" 05-21-02, 04:44 PM (EST) 40. "Amen, sistah!" >...do you mean women who speak their minds? Kicking myself for not seizing upon this part of the issue. . . It IS a pisser that this is even a problem anymore--I seriously doubt that Kathy burned her bra 30 years ago so that men could still feel insecure about women who aren't afraid to voice their opinions. (Yeah, I know--it makes little sense in retrospect, but at the time there seemed a perfectly logical connection!) (And to all of you trying to claw that visual from your mind's eye. . . You're welcome.) As an opinionated woman who is frequently misread here, maybe I should've been more thin-skinned (I hear it's all the rage.) Oddly enough, I usually figure AyaK to be a man who is more acutely aware than most--perhaps I glossed over the remarks, giving him a pass. Fact is, I pretty much lumped Tammy, John, and Robert together as one big, bitter enemy in my own mind; it 's just that Tammy articulated it best--and given society's predilection toward viewing Woman as B¡tch, that seems to be what people tend to jump on. Figure I owe AyaK a major hijack anyway. . . Shall we talk race and religion next? *ducks* GT Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get out.   Top

Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-21-02, 02:19 AM (EST) 35. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" AyaK, Love the theory. Totally get it. I think people are over-analyzing and taking it too seriously. With a fun analogy like this of course you can pick it apart by bringing up every little detail. If this theory were included as part of a Summary, everyone would be LTFAO. As for the real people involved, Sue now consciously parodies herself and Tammy was fine with joking about it. Jerri--never got it as far as I know. Kelly, haven't kept up with her but landru's letters on Bashers provide a great continuation of the Kelly Goldsmith brand of vixen venom. Ah, the aftermath of the season. When Spoilers and Bashers and Fanatics collide. All part of the fun. Evolution can be mean; there's no 'dumb-ass' vaccine--Jimmy Buffett   Top

SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-21-02, 07:04 AM (EST) 37. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" Jerri--never got it as far as I know. Jerri got it, but (to her credit) rolled with the punches and kept on going, even used it to her advantage. As Colby said in the post-Survivor II show: "Jerri's a b!+ch. But she's laughing all the way to the bank." "Pappy, you smuggled! I'm so proud of you!" -- Neleh Dennis *** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged   Top

Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 05-21-02, 03:20 PM (EST) 39. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" LMAO Dawg, great quote. Yeah, I know Jerri got it as far as honing in to how she was cast/perceived and making the most mileage from it. I'm just not sure she ever came to terms with the fact that even the "real" Jerri is a bitch. I get the impression she thinks she's a nice human being with a "tender side" who simply got cast as the bad girl. She probably does have a good side ... somewhere somehow, doesn't everybody? She needs to embrace her inner bitch as Soozin has ...   Top

erikman 324 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Cooking Show Host" 05-21-02, 07:30 PM (EST) 43. "RE: The "Vindictive B*tch" Juror" jerri was a ##### during the game but she was not bitchie on jury. kelly and brandy were not that bad just whiney they were lets be smart for tv and steal from greg. tammy and robert just had sour grapes and looked bad on tv. john looked like he still wanted everyone to love him this season we had 3 sore loosers 4 including hunter   Top

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