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idiotcowboy 1135 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest" 03-30-02, 00:53 AM (EST) "Final Two Editing" I've been thinking about this for a while and think that there might be some spoiler potential in looking at how the past finalists were edited. One thing that is clear is the first episode is not completely edited before the game is well underway or completely over. Therefore it is not only possible, but highly likely that certain things are hi-lighted or hidden based on how the various contestant’s do later in the game. I've specifically been looking at the finalist, for removing two or clearly identifying a late alliance as early as possible can be nothing but helpful as we go along. In looking at the finalist I think there are some striking parallels to the winner and the runner-ups in the way that they are edited from the very beginning. The basic premise is the finalist are comprise of a "featured" contestant, and a "hidden" contestant. In S1 there was no one more "featured" than Rich from the beginning? Kelly though was at best just one of the many others in the crowd (i.e. a "hidden" finalist). In S2 the roles were reversed somewhat. Colby was the "featured" player from the get go. Tina was "hidden" from view until around the merge. Even then she was not shown as "the player" she was until much later. In S3 the pattern continued. Ethan was almost forced on us because in truth he was not real interesting, yet he continually was given the role of narrator, seen telling some mundane tribal story, and anything else that would put him in front of the camera spouting some nonsense. Ethan was a forced "featured" but he was featured nonetheless. Meanwhile there has never been a contestant as hidden as Kim J was. Now I will grant you Kim was probably a lot more interesting than she was shown to be, but MB knowing Ethan won couldn't chance people liking Kim too much. Given the fact that in each series the final two have been edited in this manner can we now apply the same criteria to S4? I think we can. So with 11 contestants left there are 5 that have been featured, 5 that have been hidden, and 1 that is a tweener (ie some who is perhaps another forced featured like Ethan was). The "hidden" 5 of course are Vee, Robert, Paschal, Neleh, and Zoe. None of which we have been given more than brief glimpses of who they are and what they are about. The featured players are Kathy, John, Rob, Sean, and Gina. Each one has been a major player (mostly for their misdeeds), from day 1. The tweener though is Tammy. She has a whole lot of face time, but none of it is very memorable, in many ways she is being played in the same light as Ethan was for S3, which could be very good for her. Pick one from each category (Tammy from either) and based on past editing you likely have your finalist's. Ok give that premise let's project this a bit further out. The featured players are generally targets as they are given a lot of face time and allowed to connect with the audience for good or for bad. The non-finalist hidden players typically tend to be bit players until they super hyped one episode and unceremoniously booted. Looking at each one specifically though I think we can get a couple of potential "power" couples, and as the next few episodes play out we can perhaps revisit this to determine which one's make the most sense. For argument sake lets look at the "featured" contestants and see who their "hidden counter part might be based on what we know. Kathy - Neleh or Paschal John - Robert, Zoe, or Tammy Rob - Vee Sean - Vee Gina - Neleh or Paschal Tammy - Robert or Zoe Now I'm willing to bet somewhere in that list we have our final two, and I am further willing to say that I find several of those combinations given where they are in the game right now to be highly unlikely to the point of eliminating them outright. For starters I can't see how Gina will be able to make it to the end. The cards are too stacked against her. Her best chance is teaming with whoever is left out of Rob-Sean-Vee and her new group, but somehow I find that most unlikely given her feeling concerning them. Kathy is only in a slightly better position. There is an outside shot that she bonded enough with some of the old Rotu like John, Zoe, or Robert to pull something of a coup by either becoming part of the 4 or deposing the current king of the hill. Rob (and Sean) are also in a rather precarious position, but every week he doesn't get voted off the better their chances become. Despite what anyone thinks about him, Rob appears to be a player, and if the new Rotu do not see it he could pull the biggest comeback ever seen on the show. Sean is riding Rob's coattails for now. which isn’t too bad of a plan but not a great long term strategy. Now John is another story. He has been very obvious in his intentions, and probably too obvious. His parallels from the past are Rich (S1) and Lex (S3), which could bode well for him... but I tend to think he has overplayed his hand and it will come back to haunt him sooner than later. I certainly don't see him in the final 2, given the number of promises he has made that he cannot live up to. Finally we have Tammy. Now I know many of you will probably think, Tammy who? However you need to go back and look at the tape. Tammy has had a ton of face time, in the form of narration and confessionals... and why? She’s not been a target. She does not appear to be a target soon, but there she is every episode doing something, saying something and generally being involved in everything. The parallels to her are Tina and Ethan, the last two winners of Survivor. Tammy is getting the winner filming, and she and Zoe or she and Robert IMO are your final two. Comment? Flaws? -ICB   Top

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    RE: Final Two Editing Krautboy 03-30-02 1  RE: Final Two Editing NightScribe 03-30-02 2  RE: Final Two Editing idiotcowboy 04-20-02 3    RE: Final Two Editing smiles 04-20-02 4    RE: Final Two Editing Mitrelleum 04-21-02 5    RE: Final Two Editing ShowMeTheWinner 04-21-02 6  RE: Final Two Editing bongbear78 04-23-02 7  RE: Final Two Editing Teddy_Bear 04-23-02 8    RE: Final Two Editing ShowMeTheWinner 04-24-02 9        RE: Final Two Editing Teddy_Bear 04-24-02 10

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Krautboy 2750 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Howard Stern Show Guest" 03-30-02, 02:43 AM (EST) 1. "RE: Final Two Editing" Zoe and Tammy look like strong candidates to me as well. Tammy has already been edited telling John she'll kick his butt and threatening to boot Rob and Sean's butts in a confessional. Tammy and Zoe are both tough women. I think Zoe has a softer side that Tammy may not have, but in either case, they look like they are more than able to fend for themselves. Krautboy   Top

NightScribe 761 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent" 03-30-02, 11:28 AM (EST) 2. "RE: Final Two Editing" ICB, Your analysis is pretty solid. I think looking at the editing is really the best way to get a long term perspective. Anyway, you're right about Tammy -- she's taken on the roll of narrator for Rotu, and Zoe? I can't really get a handle on how MB is editing her. I mean no other survivor has ever had this little face time -- not Nick, Lamber, or even Ramona! I think she's had three non-revealing confessionals total, and when she is shown, it's always in a group situation (during a challenge, around camp, etc.). I think we need to keep our eye on the subtleties of Zoe and Tammy editing from here on out. Good job ICB. WE'll figure this thing out yet!   Top

idiotcowboy 1135 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest" 04-20-02, 11:10 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Final Two Editing" I thought I would reevaluate this now that we are a little bit further along. Interestingly 3 of the "featured" players from the beginning of the show have now been removed from the game, leaving us with only three possible (out of those "featured" from the beginning). Kathy whose stock has certainly risen over the past couple episodes now seems to be a strong contender for a final 2 berth, and there are multiple ways that this could happen. In fact of those left she might just be the storngest candidate to make it. Sean who continues to defy logic in staying in the game appears to be safe for a while as well, and (although not likely) he could slip into a power position if he plays his cards right. Still it would be hard to believe that he could actually make it to the final two, although not as out of the question as it appeared before the last episode. Tammy's stock has fallen substancially though. The thing that still bothers me is the way she has been edited throughout the show. The other Rotu-4 were given a much more harsh treatment than her, and yet the contestants themselves knew who was in charge of the alliance. There was no doubt after the last episode Tammy was 2nd to John, yet that was essentially hidden from us until last weeks episode. Why? I wish I knew, because I am definately having trouble seeing how she makes the final two unless she pulls an immunity run the likes of Colby. I also find it hard to believe she will be able to win the thing if she did get there. On the "hidden" side not much has changed as each of the them have now had a chance to come into the limelight a bit. Some more than others as Zoe, Vee, and Robert continue to try their best to blend into the treeline. Neleh and Paschal though have had a rather large spike in their facetime, and tend to think that is either very good or very bad and for some reason I'm leaning towards bad. One last thing that I think I failed to observe in my original post. Even though the final two have always been edited the way stated, they have not always had a bond so to speak. Rich and Kelly for instance were rather biter rivals at the end, and Kim J was more along for the ride than anything else, and despite the fact she had a semi-loose alliance with Ethan and the others she was never part of them. Meaning any of the "featured" players could wind up with any of the "hidden" contestants and the theory could still work even if they hate each other like Zoe and Tammy appear to be working towards. -ICB   Top

smiles 675 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 04-20-02, 11:41 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Final Two Editing" Good thoughts ICB! I tend to think that Kathy and Sean are going to be the ones to watch. Kathy is in a better power position than Sean because of her rapport with the P/N. They will be a key factor in determining who will actually win the game. Since P is reluctant on aligning with Sean, that will jeopardize Sean's of actually winning the game. Not to mention that if Sean did get to the final two who would vote for him? He does not have many allies in the Rotu tribe and Vee is most likely his best supporter. Kathy has been the bridge between the groups of two. This puts her in a great place in the game. P/N would definitely support her over Tammy and Sean and she does have her ally Zoe. Although IMHO Zoe cannot be trusted. We saw her vote shift in the last episode and she might do so again, if opportunity presented itself. Tammy's editing does put her in a good position, but the best way for her to end up in the top two would be an IC run. If she does this, she is off to a great start. However, I think she will slip up somehow and that will cost her the game. smiles   Top

Mitrelleum 257 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star" 04-21-02, 04:16 AM (EST) 5. "RE: Final Two Editing" >There was no doubt after the last episode Tammy was 2nd to John, yet that was essentially hidden from us until last weeks episode I kinda disagree, and only kinda. In E5 when the Rotu 4 were being formed, John referred to Tammy as his "partner" while they were conversing. Ever since then I thought it was kinda obvious that Tammy was John's right-hand man, and especially considering that Tammy seemed to have a more hostess-like role in the tribe (which was heightened by Robert and Zoe's lack of face time). Tammy has definitely been second to John in the vocal and tribe-authority dept., and very possibly gave that position away by appearing at John's verbal and physical side throughout the season. I never doubted it actually. But maybe it's just something that I caught, which is why I only kinda disagree.   Top

ShowMeTheWinner 962 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent" 04-21-02, 10:46 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Final Two Editing" Great analysis, ICB. The only thing is that I don't think things are as hopeless for Tammy and the General and they still have a shot at final two if they play their cards strategically and they do not really need an immunity run. T and R have to find out who the weak links are in the Underdog alliance. I think the weak links here are probably Sean and Vee. They will most likely get 5th and 6th place because I think Kathy and Zoe are tighter with Paschal and Neleh than the both of them. T and R could convince Sean and Vee about this and team up with them for the Final 4.   Top

bongbear78 31 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge" 04-23-02, 05:56 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Final Two Editing" Perhaps someone will agree or disagree with me here. I may be wrong, and if so, please let me know! Now, it seems that every episode features the person who will be voted off on next week's episode. Patricia was featured as a target on the first episode. Hunter was shown as a strong leader in the second. Sarah was CLEARLY labeled in the third episode as a lackey-bimbo to Boston Rob. Gabe was established as the rotu leader in the fourth. Gina was shown as the strong survivor/team player who might just fit in with her new tribe in the fifth episode. Boston Rob and John's battle with each other was featured throughout the 5/6 episodes. But then it got weird. KATHY had a TON of air time in the 7th espisode. A TON!! The whole episode could dramatically be described as "the one where Kathy was next on the list, and fought against horrible odds to win immunity and save herself for three days". THAT is the definition of Survivor. As far as looking for character redemption in the recap, we already saw PLENTY of redemption there. I mean, who WASN'T rooting for Kathy? She was endearingly desperate. Now, what could Kathy's airtime spike mean? It doesn't look like she's going anywhere anytime soon, so that spike was needed... perhaps to make us think Kathy is at least deserving if not well liked? As far as Featured vs hidden characters go, here's a rundown of my not so humble opinion: FEATURED: With everyone we have left on the island, who is more featured than Kathy? She's had a ton of air time before, during, and after the merge. First, we hated her. Then, she went to great lengths to save her butt from the vote on the merge episode. Now, she's helping to mastermind the dominant alliance. TWEENERS: (Yes, Kathy is the only one I'd call featured, but with John and Rob both gone, things will change) I will put the remaining contestants in oreder of how close they are to being featured, with most featured first. Hello, NEELAH. Neelah has been strongly featured since the switch. She was the narrator of Marammu, even though Gina was seen as the heart and soul of the tribe. Her sparkling personality is contagious. She will become the next Liz, if she's not already... SEAN has been seen alot, but mostly as a sidekick to Boston Rob. Since the merge, he has been seen as a target. Not alot of screen time, especially for someone who was the only other vote getter at the TC last week. ZOE is about to take a major spike in the screen time department. Although she has not seen any major screen time yet, she has been featured enough to make everyone familiar with her, especially last episode, when Kathy confronted her. But was she just another supporting character for the Kathy show? PASCHAL can be seen as another supporting player, this time to Neelah. Pappy is almost exclusively shown when Neelah is around. He has seen very little of his OWN airtime, but has plenty of airtime nonetheless, due to Neelah's commanding presence. TAMMY is just starting to come into play. But she has been painted as a sidekick to John, as has ROBERT. Both have seen little more than an inkling of screen time, with Tammy getting the edge because she is vocal. Robert is VERY under the radar, but since aligning himself with two vocal people, appears to be doomed. ROBERT- See above I do believe in this formula, and it fits well with exactly what I believe will happen, because the ONLY person that could qualify as being as hidden as MamaKim in Africa is Vecepia. She has had almost NO screen time, and has been very influential in the last two votes. She voted WITH the rotu-4 to get rid of Boston Rob. That was a switch! Then she switched AGAIN and voted for John. And yet, MB hasn't even acknowledged any of this on the show! Add to this that MB knows how disappointed everyone was with Africa, and you can guess that his shot at redemption will be to go back to the good old "Deserving vs. likeable" final two. Vecepia and Kathy. Bongbear   Top

Teddy_Bear 1675 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall" 04-23-02, 08:31 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Final Two Editing" If I have not fallen too far behind and am not too late to make a positive contribution: I read an article, I think it was on RNO (I'm not sure), which talked about Burn-it's usage of reverse editing. Vidcaps of Kathy and Rob in reversed positions, and Neleh with her birthmark and mole on different sides of her face. The author of this article, suggested that this edititing pointed to Neleh as the winner; since her name spelled backwards is Helen. If this article were correct, it would point to Paschal and Neleh as the final two. Elenor Roosevelt: No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.   Top

ShowMeTheWinner 962 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Fitness Correspondent" 04-24-02, 09:26 AM (EST) 9. "RE: Final Two Editing" The author of this article, suggested that this edititing pointed to Neleh as the winner; since her name spelled backwards is Helen. If the "reverse" editing is really proven to be true, just like the supposed "Ethan and the Sun" editing, then we can also argue the winner being Kathy. She'd been portrayed as someone who's gonna get booted out almost every episode (just ask Webby) but she actually comes out on top. Who would have predicted?   Top

Teddy_Bear 1675 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Peanut Festival Grand Marshall" 04-24-02, 10:24 AM (EST) 10. "RE: Final Two Editing" Yeah you're right ShowMe, the reverse editing could mean alot of different things. Any of the things both us mentioned. This season has been so full of reversals that any thing that has been reversed is a possible clue to the winner. IE: We expect Kathy boot/Kathy hangs on; Nurse-John, accident-prone/melagomaniacal leader/sour-grapes-crybaby; Neleh, sweet-passive, UTR/saves-non-Rotu-alliance/kicks-butt/nails-John-durning-TC; Vee-with-Sean/Vee-against-Sean/Vee-with-Sean; Zoe-UTR/Zoe-fickle-Liar; Tammy, most-favoured--to-win/Tammy, next-likely-boot; Rotu4, major-Alliance/Rotu4, deceased(John-deceased); Zoe-in-Rotu4/Zoe-defects-from-Rotu4. IOW, everything were lead to beleive prior to Ep.7; the likely winner, will in all likelihood be, the one of the last people likely to win before Ep. 8. Elenor Roosevelt: No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.   Top

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