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"See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
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SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 07:16 AM (EST)
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"See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
-Paschal, Kathy and Neleh are shocked when they learn Gabriel, whom Paschal considered a son, was voted off the island.

-John relishes his newfound position of power, but Rob is quick to challenge it.

-One castaway encourages the tribe to throw the immunity challenge. The question is, will they?

The poll question:

What will be the most important result of Maraamu's raid on Rotu's camp?

- Rotu will be demoralized
- Maraamu will gain new confidence
- It will increase hostility between the tribes

I thought the line about throwing the Immunity Challenge was very interesting.



*** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 SurvivinDawg 03-29-02 1
   RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 jkokoj 03-29-02 2
       RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 zzz 03-29-02 3
           RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 jkokoj 03-29-02 4
               RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 ShowMeTheWinner 03-29-02 5
               RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 PepeLePew13 03-29-02 6
                   RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 zzz 03-29-02 13
                       RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 PepeLePew13 03-29-02 17
                           RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 curveball 03-29-02 20
                           RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 zzz 03-29-02 21
                           RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 Loree 04-02-02 40
       RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 I_AM_HE 03-29-02 7
       RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 LilNik8 03-29-02 9
           RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 PepeLePew13 03-29-02 10
               RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 hrc2u 03-29-02 11
               RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 King William 03-29-02 14
               RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 zzz 03-29-02 15
               RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 ycartdraw 03-29-02 18
   RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 I_AM_HE 03-29-02 8
       RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 Mitrelleum 03-29-02 12
           RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 twentyfourseven 03-29-02 16
               RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 jkokoj 03-29-02 19
           RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 Spidey 03-29-02 24
           RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 Loree 04-02-02 41
 MORE See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 George Tirebiter 03-29-02 22
   RE: MORE See-BS misdirection for Ep... SurvivinDawg 03-30-02 27
 RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 Krautboy 03-29-02 23
   RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6 knoxwatch 03-30-02 29
 CONTROVERSY! shakes the clown 03-30-02 25
   RE: CONTROVERSY! fyrenice 03-30-02 26
   RE: CONTROVERSY! NightScribe 03-30-02 28
   RE: CONTROVERSY! ShowMeTheWinner 03-31-02 30
   Who sits out? Krautboy 03-31-02 31
       RE: Who sits out? ShowMeTheWinner 03-31-02 32
       RE: Who sits out? gemstone 03-31-02 33
       RE: Who sits out? survivorscott 03-31-02 34
           RE: Who sits out? dabo 04-01-02 35
               RE: Who sits out? kdzgon 04-01-02 36
                   RE: Who sits out? dabo 04-02-02 43
               RE: Who sits out? NOBODY!!! SurvivinDawg 04-01-02 37
                   RE: Who sits out? NOBODY!!! kdzgon 04-01-02 38
                       RE: Who sits out? NOBODY!!! SurvivinDawg 04-01-02 39
                           Throwing a TRIVIA challenge cowboyroo 04-02-02 42
 Sitting out NorthOfBoston 04-02-02 44

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SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 09:08 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
Hey Dawg, thanks for posting this! This is what I think it could mean:

IMHO, IAW Hollow Theory, the See-BS site is good for nothing but misdirection for spoilers, and surprises for the non-spoiling community.

The Rob/John conflict will be a featured issue on the show, but it will not be what brings us to the bootee. In fact, IMHO this has me thinking that Rotu wins IC.

Paschal has no son IRL (just two lovely daughters), so the featured discussion of Gabe being Paschal's "son" will tug at our heartstrings. We can now understand the reason why we saw Paschal kissing Gabe in a prior episode: setup for this story line. But will it have an effect on the bootee?

The fact that are actually telling us that a tribe member wants to throw IC is very interesting, and likely means that it's misdirection. Possibilities are that John wants to do it to get rid of the Robfadder (who could use the plastic surgeon to get "stupid" taken off his forehead). Also, Rob may think he has what it takes to get John voted out, and therefore will consider throwing it. Lastly, another of the original Rotu's may want to throw the challenge to get rid of Sean or Rob.

The Maraamu raid is really being shoved down our throats. MB obviously wants to start something with this, perhaps a desperate attempt to fool us into believing that there won't be a Pagonging this time around. Hmmmm, should we consider that possibility?

Your thoughts?


*** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

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jkokoj 4389 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 09:43 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
In another post I touched on your points a little. Also, I agree with most of your theories and think you explain things very well.

My own speculating and spoiling has just been the pits. But I will give an opinion anyway.

I think that we are being shown everything in plain sight this time around.

We may not see your traditional pagonging this season. I stated in the vid caps for Ep 6 thread that Paschal, Neleh and Kathy will need to rethink their positions and will have to include Gina. If Maraamu can pull off another IC win that would be the best. I think we all know that Rob is going to do whatever it takes to stay in this game.

I do not believe we were shown Zoe's vote for a reason. I bet she did not vote for Gabe like the rest of the tribe. We also were not shown John, Tammy or Robert discussing the 4 way alliance with her. Zoe could be a real wild card for the ex-Maraamus.

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zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 09:58 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
Zoe did vote for Gabriel. It was shown on TV during the credits and it is listed on the official CBS Survivor-Marquesas website Tribal Council page. I see no evidence up to now that Zoe is any more likely to betray her alliance than anyone else. What evidence have you seen?
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jkokoj 4389 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 10:09 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
ZZZ: I did not see Zoe's vote for Gabriel. We only saw her folding the paper and putting it in the barrell.

I have no evidence that she will betray her tribe only that I did not see Zoe's vote for Gabe and did not see the other 3 original Rotu discuss with Zoe the 4 way alliance. (Whew long sentance)!

I had stated this above as well as in the Ep 6 Vid Cap thread asking who Zoe voted for. I do not frequent the CBS website and usually just read the eye-mail updates posted here.

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ShowMeTheWinner 962 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 12:57 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
LAST EDITED ON 03-29-02 AT 01:17 PM (EST)

I can tell you for a fact that Zoe did vote for Gabriel coz I saw her vote at the end of the show. Everyone voted for Gabe other than Gabe himself.
Btw, was Zoe mentioned in any of John's strategizing? I don't think I heard John mentioning her in his plan but I could be wrong.

We may not see your traditional pagonging this season.
I agree. Apparently MB mentioned that the switch changed the way the game had been played since the last 3 installments so we may actually see some changes.

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PepeLePew13 26134 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 01:55 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
>ZZZ: I did not see Zoe's vote for Gabriel.
>We only saw her folding the paper and putting it
>in the barrell.

All 7 votes against Gabriel were shown clearly during his final words at the end of the show.

What I find interesting is that Gabe's vote was completely unshown, so we have no idea who he was going to vote for. Not that it has any relevance whatsoever from here on, though...

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zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 03:17 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
>
>What I find interesting is that
>Gabe's vote was completely unshown,
>so we have no idea
>who he was going to
>vote for. Not that
>it has any relevance whatsoever
>from here on, though...
>
I am not sure I understand what you mean. They did show Gabe's vote during the credits and the CBS website confirms that he voted for the Robfather. Actually, I think it might have some relevance because it lets us know that, contrary to speculation, it was Rob and not Sean the bothered Gabe the most (notwithstanding Sean's confrontation of Gabe in the last episode). Remember also that it was Sean that John went to for support against Gabe. These facts may support a theory that Sean is being edited worse than he is coming across to his tribemates.

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PepeLePew13 26134 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 03:26 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
My wife and I checked the tape again... Gabe's vote was never shown on TV at any point in time.

You've got a point there about Sean being edited worse on TV than to his tribemates -- we've seen evidence suggesting this from Hunter's comments.

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curveball 225 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 04:30 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
Gabe voted for Rob, and this is shown during the credits, where you can see that everyone voted for Gabe, and that he voted for Rob.
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zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 06:08 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
I don't know what your feed looked like, but on my TV, I clearly saw Gabe hold up (during the credits) a vote for "Rob M". I also read Gabe's chat and he explains that he refused Rob's offer to form an alliance to save himself (Gabe preferred to be voted out than to "play the game"). Gabe then asked Rob if it was OK to vote for Rob because Gabe was required to vote for someone and did not want to vote for anyone. Rob said OK, and that explains that vote.
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Loree 8616 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-02, 09:31 AM (EST)
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40. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
I watched the show on 2 different stations at different times on satellite. On the one station they did not get back to the end votes in time and Gabe's vote for Rob M wasn't shown. But on the other channel they clearly showed Gabe holding up his vote for Rob M.
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I_AM_HE 6123 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 02:05 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
John did talk to Zoe. In between Robert and Tammy, if I remember correctly. They were in the edge of the water talking. Zoe didn't say much (surprise!), just kind of nodded agreement
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LilNik8 195 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 02:31 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
>I do not believe we were
>shown Zoe's vote for a
>reason. I bet she
>did not vote for Gabe
>like the rest of the
>tribe.

Zoe's vote was shown during the credits. Everyone in Rotu voted for Gabe except Gabe. Gabe voted for the Robfather.

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PepeLePew13 26134 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 02:33 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
How do you know Gabe voted for the Robfather? We were never shown this.

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hrc2u 146 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 02:45 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
Pepe goto SeeBS site, they have who voted for who under tribal consel. You can view everyones vote from ep1 to ep5. Very handy. hrc2u
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King William 38 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 03:18 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
Actually we were. But It was shown very quickly and Gabe held the vote kindof at an angle so that we had to go back and pause it to see that he voted for "Rob M."

Da King

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zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 03:19 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
>How do you know Gabe voted
>for the Robfather? We
>were never shown this.
>
I replied to you above--but I will do so again here. At least on my feed--I saw Gabe's vote for Rob (he used his last initial to distinguish from Robert). The CBS site also confirms this vote.
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ycartdraw 46 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 03:51 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
When the credits rolled, it showed his vote. It was hard to read but it definitely said Rob. I had to rewind it a couple of times to see for sure.
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I_AM_HE 6123 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 02:12 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
I don't think it will be John or Rob trying to throw the challenge. It will be Tammy, Zoe, or Robert. My guess is Zoe, as she seemed the most connected with the new moos, and likely does not want Rob and Sean around much longer. And my guess is that John refuses, and may even put her on the fringe of the alliance (if she wasn't already)
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Mitrelleum 257 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 02:55 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
I totally believe that John wants to throw immunity to remove Rob, and that's why Rob thinks John thinks he is stupid. (Did that make sense?) Rob must find out somehow that John's plan is to throw the challenge, probably warns John that he knows, and John lies about it. Then Rob asks, "Do you think I'm stupid" or something to that effect, in which 99% of the world sez "Yeeees..." Anyway, I think Rotu is going to win.
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twentyfourseven 31 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 03:23 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
Gina's got to be next IMO to fit in with Gabe's Mom spoiler that the two of them got along. They havent interacted yet being on different tribes and this is the last boot before the merge (if it is at 10, which it should be)

She's still the odd one out at MooMoo despite the closeness between the tribe. And Rotu will probably win the IC despite themselves (as with the picture puzzle) because MooMoo wont be able to compete.

The Robfather is safe! (for this week)

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jkokoj 4389 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 03:57 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
I went to the CBS for Gabe's chat. Gabe indicated that Rob told him it was ok to vote for him. It seems that Gabe let Rob know up front that he would never vote off any original Rotu.

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Spidey 6259 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 10:01 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
Totally agree about the IC. John, Tammy and Robert (+ one other) all have to participate in the RC, since they sat out IC. I would assume the other would NOT be Zoe, b/c then that would leave Rotu's IC fate in the hands of 3 old Moos & one of the Rotu 4.

The new promo seems to clearly show Zoe and Rob in a challenge together running through the woods, and it must be IC b/c both Rob and Zoe can't both do the RC or one of J/T/R would violate MB's sit-out "rule." (Although there is evidence it has already been violated in earlier eps.)

R/V or R/S are going to do their darndest to win that IC. Paschal will be slow in the woods and Kathy doesn't seem too speedy either. I think Rotu will win (& t/f Gina goes).

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Loree 8616 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-02, 09:44 AM (EST)
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41. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
I think John must talk about wanting to throw the challenge and when Rob complains he tells Rob he isn't going to boot Rob out. Rob knows he is a rival for leader with John. So he then asks John if he thinks he is stupid. Who else would John want to boot? And the Rotu have no reason to worry about Maraamu going to TC. The Rotus know that over at the other camp they can still boot Gina and the original Rotus on Maraamu will be safe for the merge. So they don't have to throw the challenge to save their original alliance. The only reason John would have for throwing the IC is to get rid of someone that is threatening his leadership. And Rob is the one shown doing that.

But I think it is misdirection and Maraamu goes to TC and boots Gina so she can go and get to know Gabe at Loser Lodge.

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George Tirebiter 2982 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 07:53 PM (EST)
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22. "MORE See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
In today's "Still Standing" SeeBS newsletter, they throw in an added tidbit to spice this up:

Survivor Trivia

While serving in the United States Air Force, Vecepia Towery was awarded the
Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.

Does this mean we should be looking for a marksmanship challenge next episode (perhaps the javelins we got ourselves so worked up about?) And if there IS such a challenge, will Vee's expertise be helpful to Rotu, or an embarrassment, as with Frank, the archery expert?

(And Dawg. . . am I crazy, or did I just see you talking to yourself up top?)

GT

Choose your friends carefully.-Y. Arafat

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SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings
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03-30-02, 12:45 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: MORE See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
(And Dawg. . . am I crazy, or did I just see you talking to yourself up top?)

I can't speak for your state of sanity (just kidding!), but I did reply to myself to bump this message, as it was about to go off the page and no one had replied yet. I considered not posting the SeeBS misdirection anymore, as there was no interest, but that was before this 25 message explosion...


*** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

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Krautboy 2750 desperate attention whore postings
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03-29-02, 08:58 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
LAST EDITED ON 03-29-02 AT 09:10 PM (EST)

Edited because I hit the enter key by mistake, oops

In Bungler's Promo Vidcap thread (he's the Vidcap King!), Jaden has posted a link to a new video preview. Those of you with Realplayer installed can view it here:

http://cgi.cbs.com/video/video.pl/?url=cbs/cbs/g2demand/entertainment/primetime/survivor4/week05/video05_00.rm&proto=rtsp

It has a clip showing John in a confessional saying..."It would be better if we actually lost this challenge". John is the one promoting the idea of throwing a challenge to get rid of Rob. The same videoclip also asks the question "Can one tribe have two leaders?" or something like that, and it shows John and Ron in a spilt frame.

Next weeks episode is being set up as John vs. Rob and John trying to promote the idea of throwing the challenge. The video also shows footage of the challenge which includes running and paddling what appears to be a two-man outrigger canoe with Paschal and Neleh cheering on Kathy and Gina in the canoe.

I tend to agree that all attention on the John vs Rob issue is misdirection away from a Gina boot this week.

Krautboy

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knoxwatch 4 desperate attention whore postings
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03-30-02, 08:26 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: See-BS misdirection for Ep. 6"
krautboy and anyone else...did u follow the link and watch the clip? It shows RobFather placing his vote in the little container at tribal counsil and says....if I can't take you out, I will get you! Is this from another show? I don't remember him making this comment yet. Also, the clip is right after John says that everyone knows he is running the show.
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shakes the clown 3366 desperate attention whore postings
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03-30-02, 01:32 AM (EST)
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25. "CONTROVERSY!"
LAST EDITED ON 03-30-02 AT 01:56 AM (EST)

>-One castaway encourages the tribe to
>throw the immunity challenge. The
>question is, will they?


...the vidcaps aren't up yet, but there was a new promo that showed the challenge with a big CONTROVERSY on the screen in between shots of John suggesting to his alliance that they throw the challenge. Now, the challenge pics they show are cleary the reward challenge based on teh clothing compared to the clothing from the promo where they are on the mats and Mara sees for the first time that Gaybe is gone. But, that is not important because obviously the conversation about throwing the challenge is about the Immunity and not Reward...MB is showing it with the reward challenge pics because he doesn't want to show us the IC pics yet...either its a boring quiz IC, or he wants us to think the "thrown" challeng is a physical running/rowing event, which is far more exciting than letting us think for a week that the thrown challenge is simply screwing up a few answers in the trivia challenge. Also, the narrator states that the challenge will be very close between the two teams.


Also, remember there was a photo posted of John reading the Survivor manuel, studying it intently. After last night's ep I thought it was probably him studying up for a tie breaker trivia in case there was a 4-4 tie between him and Gaybe. But, now it might very well be from him studying for the trivia IC, where we will see shots of him studying, and then later on he blows and easy question...

So, here is what I think happens...

We all know that if MB tells us in a preview that something is black, it is really grey. So, we can start by assuming that the challenge will NOT be thrown by Rotu. However, we DO have the shots of John suggesting it. Plus, we have the other shots of Rob telling John the "supid" line. Put it all togehter and here is what you get....

**John suggests throwing the challenge.

**Rotu does NOT throw the challenge.

**Rotu loses the challenge by a matter of seconds.

**Rob accuses John of throwing the challenge.

**John pleads his case that it isn't true.

**Rob replies, "Do I have stupid written across my forehead?"


Couple this with the fact that Gina, the next probable boot for Maramoo, is NOT a target per the OFG theory and we are looking at a Rotu TC visit....and now we even have the post IC argument script at the Rotu camp.


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fyrenice 91 desperate attention whore postings
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03-30-02, 11:47 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: CONTROVERSY!"
This is strong reasoning. That was how I was interpreting the vidcaps. This would fit much better also with the OFG theory. If it is a quiz topic, I see Paschal and Gina dominating in brainpower. John, Tammy, and Zoe being close seconds. However, odds are good that two of them will be sitting it out.
Gina being booted next ep. fits much better with the spoilers we have. As I stated in another thread. I think if Mara was to go to TC. Pappy would "honorably" commit Survivor suicide.
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NightScribe 761 desperate attention whore postings
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03-30-02, 01:49 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: CONTROVERSY!"
shakes,
I think your reasoning is right on here. I don't believe Rotu will throw the challenge for the reasons you mention, plus one more. Rotu is not assuming that K/N/P will realign with them post-merge. Gabe mentions in his chat that throwing a challenge was never discussed. John metions knocking out the moos. Okay, I believe Gabe since he seems sincere, if not strategic. John's statement is a bit iffy. Anyway, I think the Rotu 4 (minus John who is trying to protect his precious Alpha Male status from Rob) are smart enough to whittle down the Mara 4, in case of a competing alliance post-merge.

Thinking that the Mara 4 won't allign and aren't a force to be reckoned with is naive. They are the UNDERDOGS, but they are definitely playing the game.

In every Survivor there has been a team-based trivia challenge. I think we're primed for one right now. They're the easiest to throw, and it doesn't require a team effort. All it takes is one person to intentionally miss a question. John could just tell his teammates that he missed the question, and they can't really prove he did or didn't intentionally miss it.

My picks based on your logic:
RC: Rotu
IC: Maraamu
Bootee: Rob


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ShowMeTheWinner 962 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-02, 02:53 AM (EST)
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30. "RE: CONTROVERSY!"
Agree with shakes that John's definitely getting them to throw the IC instead of the RC coz nobody would want to refuse a reward whereas there's a tactical motivation to throw away the IC.

My take on the "stupid on my forehead" comment:
After the Gabe boot, John got a bit panicky over his questionable strategy. He realized that if the Maraamus were informed about the reasons to the Gabe boot, they'd most definitely be very unhappy about it since they are close to Gabriel. Evidence: Paschal being very disappointed about it.

John knew that he'd be in trouble once they merge because Rob et al will band together with the Maraamus and get rid of Rotu 4. He knew how conniving Rob could be and it'd probably be easy for him to rope in the Maraamus and vote John off. It'd be easier for John to get the Maras to join him if only Sean and Vee are around instead of Rob because those two are not as good as Rob at manipulating people and the 6 of them is enough to get the Maras voted out.

Consider 2 scenarios at the merge if Rotu loses / wins the next IC (assuming it's the traditional merge with 10 people and this would probably John's assumption as well):
Rotu 4 + Sean and Vee + Mara 4
versus
Rotu 4 + Rob, Sean, Vee + Mara 3

As evidenced here, the former would probably be much better for John. Sean and Vee are better off sticking with Rotu 4 and hope to have an immunity run at the end because they would not get a numerical advantage to vote off Rotu 4 if they were to band together with Mara 4 anyway. Furthermore, if they were to backstab Rotu 4, the Rotu 4 would definitely not vote for them to win when it comes to the final 2. It'd better strategy to be nice to Mara 4 after the merge and get them to be pissed off at the backstabbing Rotu 4 so Mara 4'd not vote for them as the winners if one of them were to end up beside Sean/Vee in the final two.

The latter scenario would also mean that there is a probability that R/S/V can band together with Mara 3 and those six will be enough to get rid of Rotu 4. John knew about this and would rather not take that chance and therefore wanted the Rotus to throw away the next IC to get rid of Rob. This scenario is perfect for John because it kept the alliance small (6 versus 4) and yet in control over the next bootees. Furthermore, this scenario would also mean that John would be able to keep all his promises.

So John tries to get Rotu to throw away the next IC which leads to Rob's "do you see stupid written on my forehead?" comment. Contrary to popular opinion, Rob isn't stupid and knew that John wanted to get rid of him at the next TC and thus refused to throw away the challenge.

My guess:
Rotu win both the RC and IC which leads to the showdown between the two "Underdogs" Kathy and Gina. Both have referred themselves as the Underdogs and Paschal and Neleh have to choose between voting for someone they like more or to stay loyal to their original tribe member. So it's either Gina or Kathy. I'm picking Gina although Kathy would be a strong alternate as well. If Rotu were to go to TC, then say bah-bye to Robfaddah (let's hope so).

And my reply to Kokoro at another thread: I'm still open to other theories other than the Gina boot

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03-31-02, 11:37 AM (EST)
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31. "Who sits out?"
LAST EDITED ON 03-31-02 AT 11:47 AM (EST)


Shakes:

You're right, we have video of John in a confessional contemplating throwing a challenge. (In that shot he is wearing his buff on his head, when he arrives at the RC he is not wearing it on his head.)

We also have the CBS web preview..."One castaway encourages the tribe to throw the immunity challenge. The question is, will they?"

We also have the "tribe with two leaders" situation of John vs. Rob. John has the most to gain by throwing the challenge, Rob has the most to lose.

So, I agree that we are safe to assume John is the one encouraging the tribe to throw the IC.

The big question is who do the Rotu sit out for IC?

From the RC vid caps which can be found here... http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/2496.shtml
...it appears Sean, Vee and Tammy are the ones sitting out the RC, so they must compete in the IC leaving one spot to be decided...John, Rob, Zoe, or Robert?

This is the vidcap that is shown in the preview...

...immediately before John says "...it would actually be better if we lost this challenge..."

So, as we've concluded it appears that the "Controversy" involves John trying to convince the Rotu to throw the IC.

But is the controversy deciding who should sit out after John makes it known he would like to throw the challenge?

Another variation on your scenario Shakes, would unfold like this...

The controversial idea is throwing the IC. John tries to convince the other Rotu it would be a good idea.

Rob complains about the plan.

John says to Rob, "OK, I won't throw the challenge. Rob you sit out, I'll compete."

Rob responds with..."Do I have stupid written on my forehead?Forget it, I don't trust you, John you sit out and I'll compete and make sure you can't throw the challenge."

The controversy continues and is resolved by both John and Rob sitting out.

So, it could end up that Rotu decides Zoe or Robert compete with Tammy, Sean and Vee, depending on what type of challenge it is...

I'm still lobbying for a scenario that has Rotu not throwing the challenge, and sending Maraamu to TC, after which Gina goes to hang out with Hunter and Gabe, leaving Maraamu as "The underdogs".

Then in EP7 "The underdogs", Neleh, Paschal and Kathy are able to make a comeback when they reunite with the original Rotu when the tribes merge, at which point Rob, Sean and Vee, suddenly find themselves outnumbered 7-3. Rob becomes the victim of John's "True Lies" and is voted out when he fails to win immunity.

Krautboy

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ShowMeTheWinner 962 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-02, 12:09 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: Who sits out?"
From Gabes boot, I get the feeling that alliances in old Rotu were not solid yet. In fact there might not be any alliances at old Rotu. John's supposedly a man of his word and if he didn't make any promises to Neleh, Paschal, and Kathy, he might decide to stick with Rob, Sean, and Vee and vote off the Maraamus at the merge. There wouldn't be a numerical advantage for John to switch his alliance to Maraamus. It'd also be easier for John to reconcile his plan about voting off the Maras as he could tell them that he had made an alliance with R/S/V and he had made no promises with the Maraamus so he's not obliged to vote with them.
This also fits the spoiler info of Sean winning the RC in later episodes and him being in the final 6.
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gemstone 70 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-02, 02:39 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: Who sits out?"
I'm still lobbying for a scenario that has Rotu not throwing the challenge, and sending Maraamu to TC, after which Gina goes to hang out with Hunter and Gabe, leaving Maraamu as "The underdogs".


Throwing a challenge would not be controversial because it has been done before and most agreed with the idea. Controversial could mean to the viewers not to the players. Didn't we all say that the IC where Teresa was booted was unfair because it was so physical and she did not have a chance. This is contraversial to us. The IC could be a physical challenge that Maraamu has no chance of winning simply because they have the weakest physical players. This is why they are the underdogs.

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survivorscott 2191 desperate attention whore postings
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03-31-02, 04:32 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: Who sits out?"
this is what is bothering me:

...immediately before John says "...it would actually be better if we lost this challenge..."

I know technicaly it is not gramatticaly correct,but what if this is after a challenge?
Say the idea was brought up before and shot down, then John realizes "it would actually be better if we lost this challenge".

A little post challenge hindsight.

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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-02, 01:33 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: Who sits out?"
Okay. The players this time got to see S3 through episode 5, where the Twist (3 for 3 switch) occured, prior to starting the game of S4. The last thing that happened in that episode (not counting Silas' final words or the promo for the next episode) was Probst saying, "You have assumed many things, including that the merge will be ..." leaving the point of the merge in doubt. In other words, the players in S4 are uncertain of when the merge will happen. Rotu still has seven mouths to feed, and to haul water for and so on, but after the camp raid they have the absolute minimum of resources for doing this. So then, John, with his alliance in place, is looking at an uncertain merge point, but a lot of work keeping things going for the number of people they have in their camp, three of whom he can dispense with in terms of playing the game. So, even if he and the others aren't certain about the merge (and the recombination of resources), what Rotu has to look forward to is maintaining adequate food and water for seven but doing so with the lack of resources (one water jug, etc.). John's observation about losing immunity, presumably, could be a matter of practicality on his part, since there are three members of New Rotu who have no value to him (in terms of alliance) and whose presence in camp is an additional stress on the resources they have available to them.
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kdzgon 60 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-02, 11:31 AM (EST)
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36. "RE: Who sits out?"
Or maybe in one challenge this episode, no one sits out. We have seen that a trivia challenge/nature quiz, marksmanship (javelin/archery/slingshots/etc) if sequential, or maze can each occur with uneven teams.


First, with a tribe of 7 it is not possible to not sit out the same person 2X in a row, if each competition is for 4 people - and I don't think we'll be seeing a challenge that uses just 3 people. Besides, after seeing Zoe with a water bottle (which is what I think Tammy is carrying in the basket in photo 3 at http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/2478.shtml, but is missing (from basket) in photo 16 here http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/2494.shtml), I think the relay may be the IC, not the RC.

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dabo 26942 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-02, 11:35 AM (EST)
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43. "RE: Who sits out?"
I agree with kdzgon, it is likely that one of the challenges will be one where no one is allowed to sit out. The trivia RC in S3 had the tribes working as a group, but the trivia IC in S2 had them going one at a time. It will be interesting to see if Rob and Sean can actually participate in a challenge where they win, since so far they've lost every challenge they've participated in.
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SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-02, 12:06 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: Who sits out? NOBODY!!!"
I agree with dabo. If it's a trivia challenge, particularly like the one in S-2 where they advanced along steps, then there would be no need to sit out anyone. Maraamu's people simply answer more questions.

*** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

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kdzgon 60 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-02, 12:44 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: Who sits out? NOBODY!!!"
>I agree with dabo.....


hello?? hey, i know! i'm invisible. third time today someone agreed with me, but credited it to someone else.

just call me Zoe.

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SurvivinDawg 6816 desperate attention whore postings
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04-01-02, 12:48 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: Who sits out? NOBODY!!!"
hello?? hey, i know! i'm invisible. third time today someone agreed with me, but credited it to someone else.

Get used to it. I don't even bother counting the number of times it's happened to me in the past.


*** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

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cowboyroo 590 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-02, 10:50 AM (EST)
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42. "Throwing a TRIVIA challenge"
What I would find hysterical is in an attempt to throw the Trivia Challenge, they win it. How often are the answers to those questions the most unlikely choice. It would be hysterical in their attempts to get questions wrong, to get them right, thus winning. This would also add a funny sense to the Underdogs. The ones trying to lose actually win...like the kid that scores a touchdown for the other team!
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NorthOfBoston 158 desperate attention whore postings
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04-02-02, 09:07 PM (EST)
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44. "Sitting out"
I think this debate is really interesting, and I'm glad it was brought up (so many scenarios to ponder)

On the sitting-out-challenges-rule: Jeffy stated very clearly that no person may sit out in back-to-back challenges. I don't think this applies to IC-to-RC (of the next three day stint) back-to-backs. What I mean is that I think it only applies to the same person sitting out RC, then IC in the same 3 day block. The only reason I think this is because when the twist happened and the immunity challenge was that big woven puzzle, Sean and Rob sat out (Vecepia did participate). This was when Kathy, newly transferred to Mootown, made the comment about not being surprised if her old tribe blew the challenge just to get rid of Rob and Sean. However, in the following reward challenge (right after Sarah was voted out), the blind-man's-totem-pole for the reward of raiding the other tribe, Sean and Rob sat out again. That challenge consisted of all old Rotu members (minus Zoe). Then, Zoe and V/S/R had to participate in the SOS immunity challenge. I remember this clearly because I was surprised that Rob and Sean were able to sit out during the totem pole challenge.

On a side note, do you think the whole Paschal-is-devestated-over-the-loss-of-Gabe action is a foreshadowing of his revenge on old Rotu once the merge happens? He seems quiet and gentle, but since he IS a judge (and therefore was once a lawyer), I tend to think he has some sort of ambitious and/or ruthless streak in him. Perhaps he's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Last thought: John's grandstanding on who is the leader of the tribe and how can he best eliminate all of his threats can only mean one thing: he's out sooner than later.

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