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Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-12-03, 05:18 PM (EST) "*Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" I don't pretend to know why the producers of Average Joe began the show with several ordinary guys vying for a relationship with a beauty queen ... and then suddenly threw a bunch of studs into the mix. But I have some theories... lol If you follow the creative process in Hollywood, you're probably all too familiar with the following scenarios: 1) Management Decision NBC liked the basic concept of the show, but said it needed "a little work." They hired a consultant, writer or "co producer" (take your pick) to come in and "doctor" the show. These people came up with the idea of bringing in the studs. Never mind the fact that it destroyed the whole concept of the show -- they wanted something to hypo the ratings, in case the original concept (genious concept that it was) didn't work. 2) Focus Groups NBC hired some research people to see how audiences would like the show. When the results came back, they showed that the test audiences loved the show. "Oh no," NBC said. "That can't be true!" We have to make the show "better." 3) Lawyers The producers never told Malena that she would be paired up with a bunch of average guys. When she found out what had happened she quickly called her agents, demanding that they do something. Her agents called the producers and NBC demanding that the situation be "rectified," or else they would sue. NBC and the producers scrambled. 4) Twistology Somewhere along the line in the creative process, the producer decided that a simple concept like several ordinary guys vying for a relationship with a beauty queen just wouldn't work. It wasn't "edgy" enough. Too Capraesque. "We need twists," he thought to himself. "All Reality shows have them these days. Let's see ... how can we make the concept more interesting... " I've got it! Let's destroy the original concept with a twist. That will shock the hell out of people! Yeah ... that's the ticket .... that's what people want!" Feel free to add your own theories ....   Top

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Wacko Jacko 12-12-03 1    RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... ego 12-12-03 2        RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Howard Dean 12-12-03 3            RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Stunned 12-13-03 4                RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Howard Dean 12-13-03 6    RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... RollDdice 12-14-03 13        RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Howard Dean 12-15-03 14            RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... RollDdice 12-15-03 15                RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Howard Dean 12-15-03 16                    RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... RollDdice 12-15-03 17                        RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Howard Dean 12-18-03 18                            My last try at this point RollDdice 12-18-03 19                                RE: My last try at this point ladro 12-18-03 20                                    It's a Reality Show, not a Fairytal... RollDdice 12-19-03 21                                        RE: It's a Reality Show, not a Fair... Howard Dean 12-19-03 24                                    RE: Dirty Trick Howard Dean 12-19-03 23                                RE: your last try at this point Howard Dean 12-19-03 22                                    Relax, you'll live longer RollDdice 12-19-03 25                                        I laugh at your arrogance Howard Dean 12-19-03 26                                            Look at the Big Picture RollDdice 12-19-03 27                                                RE: Look at the Big Picture Howard Dean 12-19-03 28                                                Agree AyaK 12-23-03 37                                                    RE: Agree Howard Dean 12-27-03 38                                                        RE: You Agree??? RollDdice 12-27-03 39                                                            LOL More? Howard Dean 12-27-03 40                                                                RE: LOL More? RollDdice 12-27-03 41                                                                    RE: LOL More? Howard Dean 12-28-03 42                                        Ew, grumpity posters... CyberCooties 12-20-03 29                                            RE: Ew, grumpity posters... RollDdice 12-20-03 30                                                RE: Ew, grumpity posters... CyberCooties 12-20-03 31                                                    RE: Ew, grumpity posters... Howard Dean 12-21-03 32                                                        RE: Ew, grumpity posters... CyberCooties 12-21-03 33                                                            RE: Ew, grumpity posters... Howard Dean 12-21-03 34                                                                Very possible, but.. CyberCooties 12-21-03 35                                                                    RE: Very possible, but.. Howard Dean 12-22-03 36                                                RE: Ew, grumpity posters... Howard Dean 12-28-03 43  What Went Wrong With Average Joe CyberCooties 12-13-03 5    RE: What Went Wrong With Average Jo... Howard Dean 12-13-03 7  RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... ladro 12-13-03 8    RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Howard Dean 12-13-03 9        RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... ladro 12-13-03 10            RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Howard Dean 12-14-03 11            RE: *Satire* --The Creative Proces... Howard Dean 12-14-03 12

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Wacko Jacko 2438 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model" 12-12-03, 06:01 PM (EST) 1. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" I say it was probably number 3. Melena decided to sue. Producers of the show have already acknowledged Melena being upset. Same thing happened with the girl from Average Joes 2 - she looks even more upset than Melena did. So NBC scrambled to find three 'hunks'. NBC probably already had those guys apply when the contestants assumed the show was "Life of the Party". And all three were probably fairly easy to locate and came in in a couple days. I bet after Michael got out of the car at the beginning for the "fake" they saw Melena's smile to meet him and asked for him to stay. Michael almost didn't look interested 'the game'. He was so nonchalant and almost expressed "Whatever" when getting the axe. I agree with you 100% that I think that these changes are what destroyed the original premise which worked for me and killed the Average Joe premise.   Top

ego 100 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 12-12-03, 06:16 PM (EST) 2. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" i'm happy michael didn't seem interested in the show. i wonder if it was a big ego crusher for her that he didn't care. i like that. good for you michael! haha!   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-12-03, 06:38 PM (EST) 3. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" lol ... I wonder how underwhelmed some of the hunks in Hawaii are going to be with Larissa ... or her with them. >i'm happy michael didn't seem interested >in the show. i >wonder if it was a >big ego crusher for her >that he didn't care. >i like that. good >for you michael! haha!   Top

Stunned 12 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson" 12-13-03, 00:00 AM (EST) 4. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" LAST EDITED ON 12-13-03 AT 00:00 AM (EST) However, it seems to have worked. "The series finale of Average Joe drew 17.4 million overall viewers and propelled NBC to its highest Adults 18-49 demographic rating with series programming in the Monday 9-11 PM ET slot in more than 10 years." I pretty much had no interest in the show until the 'hunks' showed up really...then suddenly my curiousity was piqued. Though even though it might not have been their intention, the producers managed to strike a chord of resonance with anybody who has felt 'average' at some point in time of their life when it came to competing for someone's affections....   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-13-03, 01:21 PM (EST) 6. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" Yeah, but how many people will be back for Avergae Joe II? So many people say now that they feel cheated! In most web polls the numbers are like 75%. >However, it seems to have worked. > > >"The series finale of Average Joe >drew 17.4 million overall viewers >and propelled NBC to its >highest Adults 18-49 demographic rating >with series programming in the >Monday 9-11 PM ET slot >in more than 10 years." > > >I pretty much had no interest >in the show until the >'hunks' showed up really...then suddenly >my curiousity was piqued. > >Though even though it might not >have been their intention, the >producers managed to strike a >chord of resonance with anybody >who has felt 'average' at >some point in time of >their life when it came >to competing for someone's affections.... >   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-14-03, 02:50 PM (EST) 13. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" What changes? It's a very simple premise: Surround an attractive woman with "average" guys. The relationships depend more on personality than looks. Then the "twist"... throw in handsome guys and see if the "average" guys have bonded more with Melana and if she prefers one of them to the "hunks". You could call it Substance over Style. But it didn't work, because Melana went with the shallow Jason over Adam. 1. Melana had no basis to sue. 2. No "scramble" to find hunks, they were already planned. 3. Av Joe2 will probably have same outcome. No more Av Joe after that. That's the ticket!   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-15-03, 01:47 AM (EST) 14. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" What you are describing is similar to my theories above -- #s 1, 2 and 4. Someone comes up with the twists before the show is filmed, either the network or the original producer of the show. The change, of course, is in the minds of the disappointed viewers. They expect one thing and get something else. If you liked the twist in Average Joe, more power to you, but web polls seem to indicate that 75% of the viewers are disappointed and many say they won't be back for Average Joe II. I can't deny that it's done a lot. Most NBC and Fox reality shows feature a lot of twists. But CBS and ABC reality shows usually tend to have less of them, so there is probably something happening at the network level. In fact, in the case of CBS, I'm pretty sure it's true, as I have read network executives there (in trade journals) saying that they don't like to go overboard with twists. Given the success at CBS, I think people prefer basic Reality shows like Survivor that stick with an essentially good basic concept, minimize the twists, and get huge ratings season after season. By contrast, it's doubtful that Average Joe will accomplish that in it's second season, or even shoot a third season. >What changes? It's a very simple >premise: > >Surround an attractive woman with "average" >guys. The relationships depend more >on personality than looks. Then >the "twist"... throw in handsome >guys and see if the >"average" guys have bonded more >with Melana and if she >prefers one of them to >the "hunks". > >You could call it Substance over >Style. But it didn't work, >because Melana went with the >shallow Jason over Adam. > >1. Melana had no basis to >sue. 2. No "scramble" to >find hunks, they were already >planned. 3. Av Joe2 will >probably have same outcome. No >more Av Joe after that. >   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-15-03, 12:45 PM (EST) 15. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" LAST EDITED ON 12-15-03 AT 12:56 PM (EST) The producer comes up with the show "setup" and the "twists". The networks have some input when it's a first-time producer or the twists negatively impact advertising. But here are two things that will not change a successful Reality Show: A) A contestant filing a lawsuit because they don't like the premise or B) polls, websites or telephone calls from viewers. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but that's the truth. The twist involving bringing in the hunks was something that everyone saw coming-- people on RTW were speculating about it long before the show started. But this is not really a twist, it's the major thesis of the show: "Will the beautiful girl go with the "average" guy based on personality or walk away with the attractive "hunk"? The Average Joes are given a head start, with the girl thinking that she must go to the end with one of them. But there's this big fuss that Melana picked a "hunk" and the whole "Princess & the Frog" illusion was broken. That's not a twist, that's free will. You can change the rules, you can "twist" the situations, but you can't tell the contestant who to choose. Despite the web poll you quote, I predict that Average Joe 2 will do just fine in the ratings. And then, like Joe Millionaire, it will drop off the face of the Earth. You roll the dice and you take your chances!   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-15-03, 03:07 PM (EST) 16. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" LAST EDITED ON 12-15-03 AT 03:25 PM (EST) For the sake of argument, I'll give you your notion that the producer -- and not the network -- came up with the concept, setup and twists. But your notion that networks only have input in the rare cases of either a first-time producer or a negative impact on advertising is inaccurate. Tweaking by movie studios and TV networks is commonplace in Hollywood. It happens every day. It goes on with even the highest rated TV series and with even the most successful producers that have the best track records. As for your other comment ... it seems to me that polls, websites and telephone calls from viewers may or may not affect what happens on television, but one thing *certainly* does, and that is RATINGS. To the degree that polls, websites and telephone calls from viewers are an indication of how Average Joe II will do in the ratings, it may be in trouble. The twist involving bringing in the hunks was not something that everyone saw coming. People on RTW may have been speculating about it long before the show started, but that does not mean that the "average joe" out there watching TV saw it coming or really appreciates it. When it comes to ratings, the "average joe" TV viewer is what matters in the end. That's why shows like Survivor and The Bachelor that stay with their basic concept and don't mess with the viewer's minds keep coming back year after year with awesome ratings. At least we do agree on one thing: Average Joe will drop off the face of the Earth after it's second season. Pity. >The producer comes up with the >show "setup" and the "twists". >The networks have some input >when it's a first-time producer >or the twists negatively impact >advertising. >But here are two things that >will not change a successful >Reality Show: A) A contestant >filing a lawsuit because they >don't like the premise or >B) polls, websites or telephone >calls from viewers. Sorry to >burst anyone's bubble, but that's >the truth. > >The twist involving bringing in the >hunks was something that everyone >saw coming-- people on RTW >were speculating about it long >before the show started. But >this is not really a >twist, it's the major thesis >of the show: "Will the >beautiful girl go with the >"average" guy based on personality >or walk away with the >attractive "hunk"? The Average Joes >are given a head start, >with the girl thinking that >she must go to the >end with one of them. > > >But there's this big fuss that >Melana picked a "hunk" and >the whole "Princess & the >Frog" illusion was broken. That's >not a twist, that's free >will. You can change the >rules, you can "twist" the >situations, but you can't tell >the contestant who to choose. > > >Despite the web poll you quote, >I predict that Average Joe >2 will do just fine >in the ratings. And then, >like Joe Millionaire, it will >drop off the face of >the Earth.   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-15-03, 05:49 PM (EST) 17. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" I've worked in the television industry for most of my life, but I agree we can "push" on the Network vs. Producer question... it depends too much on the execs/networks involved. I also agree that ratings are the ultimate measure of how successful a show is with the public. But you're suggesting that people want to see a beautiful woman choose between some Average Joes, when we all know we're really waiting for "the other shoe to drop" in the form of a group of model-types challenging the existing relationships. That was the "twist" and it caused the water cooler talk (and press coverage) that the networks crave. Sure, people complain. One poster here suggested that the Av. Joes should sue because the title violates Truth In Advertising standards. (I don't think she passed the Bar) But the same people who swear they'll protest by not watching the next show will be right there for AvJoe2. Give people exactly what they expect and they'll be bored silly, voting with the remote. Ratings go buh bye. Maybe if you watch The Bachelor, you were expecting an "Average" version and that's what has you upset. Just a thought... Finally, even an established challenge/Reality Show like Survivor makes changes sometimes. Take a look and you'll see alot of heated debates about the "Ghost Tribe". BTW, you don't need to include the entire original message in your reply   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-18-03, 02:19 PM (EST) 18. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" I'm not sure that I agree with your notion that we were all waiting for the other shoe to drop. Waiting for the other shoe to drop belongs in murder mysteries and international intrique, in my opinion. I prefer reality shows where the premise stays more or less the same throughout the show, like Survivor or The Bachelor. You make a fairly good point when you say that perhaps we shouldn't have expected a beauty queen to choose from among average guys, but then again, attractive women often marry average looking guys in real life. Many of the posters in this thread and a number of other threads like "Why Did They Call It Average Joe?" seem to agree with me. Now sure, a radical stunt like bringing in the hunks creates a lot of watercooler talk, but so do shows like Survivor and The Bachelor, which don't use those kinds of stunts. Giving people exactly what they want does not create boredom, as anyone who looks at the Ratings of Survivor or The Bachelor knows. Oh and by the way, I don't mind it at all when Survivor adds a few twists now and then -- such as the tribal switch before the merge in Survivor 3, 4 and 6 -- or the ghost tribe in Survivor 7. But that's a far cry from changing the whole premise of the show. Anyway, NBC and Fox seem to enjoy doing this in their Reality shows, so perhaps I'll just stick with ABC and CBS.   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-18-03, 03:30 PM (EST) 19. "My last try at this point" We keep going around and around on this issue, so I'm going to take one more swing and then let it go... Average Joe is the ba$tard child of The Bachelor and Mr. Personality. Both shows skewed toward women in the ratings. AvJoe was an attempt to hold female audiences while upping the male demo. Some sort of twist/conflict is essential in securing and keeping an audience. The conflict with Survivor is the various personalities, and the shifting immunities/alliances. The conflict on Bachelor is the cat fights/who he's going to choose each week. The conflict here was letting Melana get to know the AvJoes and then bringing in the handsome guys. This was not a "dirty trick", a "radical stunt" or "false advertising". It was planned by the producers from the very beginning to test the "personality vs. physical attractiveness" premise. When you said... "You make a fairly good point when you say that perhaps we shouldn't have expected a beauty queen to choose from among average guys, but then again, attractive women often marry average looking guys in real life." ... you have two MAJOR problems. I never said that and I hate to have words put in my mouth. So, what have we learned here? Basically that NBC did not "change the whole premise of the show" and you'll see more of the same with AvJoe II. Stick with "The Bachelor" or the new show "Trista & Ryan's Attempt To Conceive Without Sex". You'll be much happier. Any more education and I'm going to have to start charging tuition.   Top

ladro 1168 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest" 12-18-03, 09:14 PM (EST) 20. "RE: My last try at this point" Re: "False advertising" The term "false advertising" is not even an appropriate term to use in relationship to a reality TV show. Re: "radical stunt" That is a realtive term, I am not qualified to comment on that. Re: "Dirty trick" It was a clear cut dirty trick. The Joes, being the attention starved media whores that they were, would have agreed to most any terms to be on a TV show. It wouldn't have been neccessary to trick them to get them (or some other Joes) to participate in your 'looks vs. personality experiment' hypothesis, but the producers intentionally, with premeditation, and with malicious intent, withheld information regarding the competition for the sole purpose of obtaining a pained response from the AJs. The producers were in a position of authority and trust and owed the AJs a fair and honest contest. Dirty Trick. Re: "personality vs. looks experiment" hypothesis Maybe your right, I don't know. I don't give the producers that much credit. I think it was all about ratings.   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-19-03, 02:44 AM (EST) 21. "It's a Reality Show, not a Fairytale" 1. "False advertising": Another poster used that term and I agree with you, it is a ridiculous cry-baby term in the context of a Reality Show. 2. "Radical Stunt": The twist of bringing in the models was radical to viewers expecting another version of Bachelor, but that's what made this show different. Anyone who calls this "radical" leads a very sheltered life (and performs with Hula Hoops). 3. "Dirty trick": I don't agree that the Joes were media whores. I think most did it with a "Who knows? I could get lucky and get the girl" attitude. There's also the thought that network exposure will jump-start some sort of acting career. (Two Joes have done other tv work so far, so there may be something to that.) The thing to remember is that this is a fr1ggin' REALITY GAME SHOW so you have to expect some twists and turns. If Melana had been a tran$vestite--now that would have been a dirty trick! Also, the 'looks vs. personality experiment' hypothesis, is not mine; it belongs to the producers and NBC. Witholding information to "twist" the game at different points was definitely premeditated in order to wring emotional responses out of Melana and the AvJoes. Don't be misled though. The producers did not owe the Joes a "fair and honest contest". As I wrote in a previous post, Melana made her "free will" selection and that's as fair as you're going to get. You want fair, enter a church raffle. And just so you know ... it's always about the ratings. > Buckle your seatbelts. The woman in AvJoe 2 seems less understanding than Melana.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-19-03, 11:42 AM (EST) 24. "RE: It's a Reality Show, not a Fairytale" >And just so you know ... >it's always about the ratings. Yes, and shows like Survivor and The Bachelor actually get *better* ratings than shows like Average Joe which resort to cheap stunts like bringing in the studs. Integrity. What a concept!   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-19-03, 11:33 AM (EST) 23. "RE: Dirty Trick" Whatever Roll Dice wants to say about "drama," I agree with you that it was a dirty trick, or at least very unexpected by the audience. Personally, I prefer shows like Survivor that give us plenty of drama without having to resort to "stunts" like the one pulled on Average Joe.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-19-03, 11:29 AM (EST) 22. "RE: your last try at this point" Reality shows are essentially "situational dramas." Every drama has to have some kind of conflict in order to work. As you accurately pointed out, the conflict on Survivor is the various personalities, and the shifting immunities and alliances. The conflict on Bachelor is the various personalities, the cat fights, and who he's going to choose each week. The conflict on Average Joe was also the various personalities, the arguing among the contestants, who Melana was going to pick -- and yes, bringing on the handsome guys. The DIFFERENCE with that last element is that it the show had to essentially change the premise -- AT LEAST AS IT WAS PERCEIVED BY THE AUDIENCE -- in order to create that drama. It is not surprising that many people watching the show perceived this to be a "dirty trick," whether it was or not. If you have trully worked in the industry as long as you say you have, you of all people should know that the perception of the audience is EVERYTHING!   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-19-03, 12:54 PM (EST) 25. "Relax, you'll live longer" You're so worked up about this that you're responding to yourself! Yes, I have worked in the television industry for most of my life, you have no need to doubt that. I've always worked on shows that "respected" the audience (i.e. dramas, sitcoms, game shows and one reality show). But you have to realize that the majority of the viewing public watched Av Joe, was not offended by Av Joe and will be back for Av Joe2. I mean ... people watch Fear Factor, so there's no accounting for taste. Despite your rightgeous indignation, there aren't going to be any villagers storming NBC to remove Average Joe 2 from the lineup. So find another show during that time period and take deep cleansing breaths. Is this personal for you? Did the AvJoe-type situation happen to you?   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-19-03, 01:43 PM (EST) 26. "I laugh at your arrogance" LOL given the arrogance of your responses ... I did say it is you who is worked up )   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-19-03, 07:14 PM (EST) 27. "Look at the Big Picture" I'm sorry you see it that way. It's just that you seem very upset, insisting that the very nature of this game show is a "dirty trick" and predicting that 75% of web posters will not watch Average Joe 2. I was also disappointed that Melana chose the "hunk" over Adam. It's not the outcome I would have chosen, but the game is the game and the Producers make the rules. Given the fact that 17.4 million sets of eyeballs were watching Average Joe, it's pretty obvious that you're going to see the same situation repeated and amplified in AvJoe2. Take a look at post #4 in this thread and I think you'll see how most viewers feel about this show. Unfortunately, it seems that a few feel personally betrayed and victimized by Average Joe. I'm sorry if anyone thinks that this show represents them in any way. Here's what NBC sees... a sixty minute reality show that gets great ratings ... without giving away a million dollars. I happened to drive by NBC Net this afternoon... no riots or protests yet.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-19-03, 08:04 PM (EST) 28. "RE: Look at the Big Picture" Me? Upset? Ha ha .... I just like to make fun of sleezy Reality shows, that's all. >I'm sorry you see it that >way. > >It's just that you seem very >upset, insisting that the very >nature of this game show >is a "dirty trick" and >predicting that 75% of web >posters will not watch Average >Joe 2. > >I was also disappointed that Melana >chose the "hunk" over Adam. >It's not the outcome I >would have chosen, but the >game is the game and >the Producers make the rules. >Given the fact that 17.4 >million sets of eyeballs were >watching Average Joe, it's pretty >obvious that you're going to >see the same situation repeated >and amplified in AvJoe2. > >Take a look at post #4 >in this thread and I >think you'll see how most >viewers feel about this show. > > >Unfortunately, it seems that a few >feel personally betrayed and victimized >by Average Joe. I'm sorry >if anyone thinks that this >show represents them in any >way. Here's what NBC sees... >a sixty minute reality show >that gets great ratings ... >without giving away a million >dollars. > > >I happened to drive by NBC >Net this afternoon... no riots >or protests yet.   Top

AyaK 10426 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-23-03, 06:35 PM (EST) 37. "Agree" Much as I hate to enter this debate, I have to side with RollDdice here. Look at all of the publicity that the "twist" brought to the show. I saw at least one article in every major paper -- and not just a recycled AP article either, but an article written by the paper's TV critic. What do those articles translate into? Higher ratings. Yeah, it may have been a cheap twist. But in the only poll that really counts -- the weekly one from Nielsen -- it worked. At least this time. And it's still fresh enough on people's minds that they might want to see if Larissa does the same thing.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-27-03, 04:03 AM (EST) 38. "RE: Agree" The Key question is how many viewers will be back for Average Joe 2. We will know in a couple of weeks when the first ratings come out. NBC has been flooding the airwaves with promos for the show, so they're certainly giving it their best shot. In addition, they've opened up an Average Joe 2 website. A letter from the producers there is particularly revealing. Now that it is obvious to viewers what Average Joe is all about, NBC is trying to sell the concept of that twist, rather than trying to fool us. That will work with some people, while others will probably just laugh at their audacity. I still agree with what the majority of people have said on the web -- that it was a cheap twist and a dirty trick. But I'll be watching Average Joe 2 simply because I find Larissa intriguing. She seems like the kind of gal who might actually chose an Average Joe. For more on this, see my posts on the Larissa Meek Pinup thread.   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-27-03, 10:48 AM (EST) 39. "RE: You Agree???" Quite a turnaround there HD! I thought you were going to boycott NBC because you prefer shows that "respect the audience" like Survivor and The Bachelor. Isn't it interesting that no one complained about the original twist, i.e. Melana expecting handsome, successful guys getting off the bus to fight for her hand? Nobody cried "foul" on that twist. And judging from the promos, Larissa seemed more upset about her original interaction with the Av Joes than Melana did. I'd like to see the Las Vegas sports book line on her choosing an Av Joe over the model guys. on med-watch NY   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-27-03, 12:48 PM (EST) 40. "LOL More?" LOL As usual, your egotistical ranting and raving is pretty amusing. I base my perception that Larissa might actually pick an average Joe on her comments on the NBC website, as well as on her own website. That's why I'm watching the show. But I wouldn't expect a simpleton like you to grasp something like that.   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-27-03, 03:57 PM (EST) 41. "RE: LOL More?" I will try to check out the website when time permits. And I know you sometimes get excited, so I won't take the "simpleton" comment to heart. Believe me, you would rather have me ignoring that remark than have one of the blue peeps come down on you. Let's keep it spirited and clever without the insults. I would never say "How ah ya?" to Larissa.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-28-03, 01:04 AM (EST) 42. "RE: LOL More?" LAST EDITED ON 12-28-03 AT 01:10 AM (EST) LOL ... Don't rush yourself. I know you're a "busy man." Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz << I will try to check out the website when time permits.   Top

CyberCooties 162 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 12-20-03, 00:57 AM (EST) 29. "Ew, grumpity posters..." Tell us about your resume. What productions have you been involved in? I'll betcha he wont give us a clue!   Top

RollDdice 5949 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 12-20-03, 01:21 PM (EST) 30. "RE: Ew, grumpity posters..." What a nice question. And with a little dare at the end too. Let's just say two decades, two networks, one Olympics and I still W-P-D corporate videos. And you? I'm as much of a DAW as the next person, but I don't have to list my credits. What do think I am ... an actor?   Top

CyberCooties 162 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 12-20-03, 04:49 PM (EST) 31. "RE: Ew, grumpity posters..." LAST EDITED ON 12-20-03 AT 04:50 PM (EST) Nothin' wrong with getting/giving credit! Oh me, I'm a chemist. I develop sugar shallac for flakey food products.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-21-03, 03:23 AM (EST) 32. "RE: Ew, grumpity posters..." lol ... Isn't that what Chevy Chase did in National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation? >Oh me, I'm a chemist. >I develop sugar shallac for >flakey food products.   Top

CyberCooties 162 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 12-21-03, 03:44 AM (EST) 33. "RE: Ew, grumpity posters..." Yep, you're good. How about this one: "We carve the heads of presidents out of drift wood." Ew! CyberCooties!   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-21-03, 01:17 PM (EST) 34. "RE: Ew, grumpity posters..." Must have been where they got Bush's head lol > >"We carve the heads of presidents >out of drift wood."   Top

CyberCooties 162 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 12-21-03, 06:32 PM (EST) 35. "Very possible, but.." It was John Malkovich on SNL years ago. I know this is off topic of AJ, but what the hay, almost time for AJ2!   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-22-03, 00:48 AM (EST) 36. "RE: Very possible, but.." Oh, I see lol >It was John Malkovich on SNL >years ago.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-28-03, 04:05 AM (EST) 43. "RE: Ew, grumpity posters..." Hmmm, Shakespearre said, me thinks he's being evasive. Perhaps he works as a page boy at NBC. >I'm as much of a DAW >as the next person, but >I don't have to list >my credits. What do think >I am ... an actor? >   Top

CyberCooties 162 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 12-13-03, 03:39 AM (EST) 5. "What Went Wrong With Average Joe" I think they took one look at gorgeous Melana, saw on her application that she said looks don't matter, and tried to call her on it. Melana wasn't honest with herself, so she ended up disappointing AJs all across America. Actually, after getting to know the hunky guys, they seemed average to me too. In the end, I think Jason is just a more secure and emotionally stable guy as compared to Adam. I think the twists, jealousy, mood swings, improv, scattered micro moments of time are all in an average day at NBC. No. I'm not calling you a ho!   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-13-03, 01:24 PM (EST) 7. "RE: What Went Wrong With Average Joe" I agree. I think CBS does a better job at Reality shows than NBC. > >I think the twists, jealousy, mood >swings, improv, scattered micro moments >of time are all in >an average day at NBC. >   Top

ladro 1168 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest" 12-13-03, 03:12 PM (EST) 8. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" 1, 2 or 4, or a combination thereof. Defintely not #3. I am sure her contract was bulletproof. Additionally there was mention in one of the articles linked from this site of a 'backup' in full makeup ready to go if Mel got cold feet. The backup was said to be the woman in AJ2 (larisa sp?).   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-13-03, 06:09 PM (EST) 9. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" LAST EDITED ON 12-13-03 AT 06:10 PM (EST) Yeah that makes sense to me. There is so much "tweaking" of concepts that goes on in Hollywood. The only thing it doesn't explain, however, is why Malena and Larissa both reacted so badly when they saw the guys. Perhaps the exact "nature" of the guys was never specified in their contract. lol My guess is that they didn't even know the name of the show. Melana's guy said he didn't. But I'm sure the show still had an ironclad contract of some sort, as you mentioned. >1, 2 or 4, or a >combination thereof. Defintely not #3. >I am sure her contract >was bulletproof. Additionally there was >mention in one of the >articles linked from this site >of a 'backup' in full >makeup ready to go if >Mel got cold feet. The >backup was said to be >the woman in AJ2 (larisa >sp?).   Top

ladro 1168 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Politically Incorrect Guest" 12-13-03, 09:26 PM (EST) 10. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" I am aure that the contract allowed the producer all creative descretion with regard to the makeup of the cast of men. Had she made specific demands (minimum 5'7', maximum 220 lbs., etc...) she just wouldn't have gotten the job. I am sure they didn't tell her the intended Title either. This show and Jerry Springer go to show that some people will do anything to get on TV. <<<The only thing it doesn't explain, however, is why Malena and Larissa both reacted so badly when they saw the guys.>>> I had actually typed a similar question (regarding Larrrisssa only) at the end of my post, but decided to remove it because it made my post confusing. Two reasons I have thought of: A. The entire Netowrk story about having a backup ready to go was BS. B. They kept Lirrrisssa off site and told her some wacky story about the other girl having second thoughts.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-14-03, 01:07 AM (EST) 11. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" Makes sense to me. That may very well be what happened. >I am aure that the contract >allowed the producer all creative >descretion with regard to the >makeup of the cast of >men. Had she made specific >demands (minimum 5'7', maximum 220 >lbs., etc...) she just wouldn't >have gotten the job. I >am sure they didn't tell >her the intended Title either.   Top

Howard Dean 707 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 12-14-03, 01:16 AM (EST) 12. "RE: *Satire* --The Creative Process In Hollywood ...ie...What Went Wrong With Average Joe" Could very well be. Either way, they deliberately shot the two series before either hit the air, much as "For Love Or Money" did earlier this year. Some say that now that the secret is out about the show, they can't do it again. But why not still have a show with a beauty queen who wants to meet average guys. Surely there are some out there ... lol .... Just don't bring in the hunks. > >I had actually typed a similar >question (regarding Larrrisssa only) at >the end of my post, >but decided to remove it >because it made my post >confusing. Two reasons I have >thought of: > >A. The entire Netowrk story about >having a backup ready to >go was BS. >B. They kept Lirrrisssa off site >and told her some wacky >story about the other girl >having second thoughts. > >   Top

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