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LoudmouthLee 294 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star" 11-17-01, 10:06 AM (EST) "***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" As always, time for the weekly installment of LML's worthless banter and the such... Well, two weeks ago, we saw MassaTom falling on the "Spider Web" challenge, and MB's editing him to look awful "hickish". I'm sure he's smarter than that, however, I look at it to simply be a Rudyesque editing technique. Rudy, portrayed as dumb all the time, "uh-I dunno" fell to his demise as we danced around the pole without touching it. I seriously believe the MB's using a VERY similar editing technique as him. A serious question... is ANYONE UTR? Yes.. but VERY few. Lil Kim and Kelly are probably the must UTR, hoever, mor Kelly than Lil Kim. Is anyone in NewBoron UTR? I seriously don't think so. However, we're seeing, currently, the ultimate game of survivor being played... by LEX who is being edited to have the greatest knowledge on playing this game since... well... Richard Hatch. Who do I like to be gone next week? Lets go back... Will there be a merge next week? I'd think it'd be silly not to. I believe this was edited in to cause an uproarous internet and watcher reaction, and it did. Lets think about it... in Samiburu (giggle) It's.. well, THE SAME AS IT WAS BEFORE! 2 tribes, split.. now the Gen Xers know how the OFA felt. The merge will happen on schedule. Assuming the merger goes on next week, Just as always... the "strongest" don't truly survive. (assuming merger) Clarence Black heads back to the Basketball league. (assuming tribal lines) Brandon's going to try to jump ship. It just lands him out of the game. Was fun, maybe i'll get more reactions again I remember, week one, this had 65 responses, last week, it was 1. (Woooohooo... Special thanks to all of my OT buddies, especially the tag team combination of SamIAm and Boomer Thank you for the sig. Thank you, my OT buddies for making me smile 24/7 ) "What you call the disease, I call the remedy, and what you call the cause, I call the cure" -TMMB "Moscow's in ashire, whats the problem? Should I throw my tammy in the ring and run for presidente?" - Trashcan Sinatras   Top

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    RE: ***Character Development, Life ... CatM 11-17-01 1    RE: ***Character Development, Life ... Rose Red 11-17-01 2        Abbreviations IceCat 11-17-01 3  RE: ***Character Development, Life ... PepeLePew13 11-19-01 4    RE: ***Character Development, Life ... Stairway2Dayton 11-19-01 5        RE: ***Character Development, Life ... zzz 11-19-01 6        Editing Teresa Rose Red 11-19-01 7    RE: ***Character Development, Life ... Outfrontgirl 11-20-01 8        RE: ***Character Development, Life ... PepeLePew13 11-20-01 9        RE: ***Character Development, Life ... zzz 11-20-01 10            Women Beward Women Rose Red 11-20-01 11        RE: ***Character Development, Life ... red 11-20-01 12        RE: ***Character Development, Life ... Bebo 11-20-01 13            RE: ***Character Development, Life ... red 11-20-01 14  RE: ***Character Development, Life ... Outfrontgirl 11-20-01 15    RE: ***Character Development, Life ... red 11-20-01 16        RE: ***Character Development, Life ... Outfrontgirl 11-20-01 17            RE: ***Character Development, Life ... red 11-20-01 18

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CatM 10 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Got Milk? Spokesperson" 11-17-01, 10:48 AM (EST) 1. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" What is "UTR"? Cat   Top

Rose Red 419 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star" 11-17-01, 11:41 AM (EST) 2. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" UTR is Under the Radar. By the way, while we're at it what is lol? Is that "laughing out loud"? Also, IMHO. And the top of this page the DAW? Please explain all these intials.   Top

IceCat 17415 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 11-17-01, 11:51 AM (EST) 3. "Abbreviations" LOL = Laughing Out Loud ROFL = Rolling on the Floor Laughing LMFAO = Laughing My Frikken Ass Off IMO = In My Opinion IMHO = In My Humble Opinion DAW = Desperate Attention Whore IRL = In Real Life   Top

PepeLePew13 26134 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 11-19-01, 01:46 PM (EST) 4. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" *a thumbs-up to MonCherie's Eye In The Sky news for sending me to this thresd* Nice work, LMLee... I can't disagree with much of what you said. I agree that Lex is playing the game quite well - staying just enough under the radar to not stand out in an obvious way but at the same time making a lot of power moves in an understated way (as in not being shown as an overwhelming leader by the TV editing, unlike what we're hearing in the Insiders). I think we're going to be seeing much more of Lex's (and IMO, Kelly's) control on screen in the next few weeks. About who goes if there is a merge or not... I have believed all along that it will be Clarence that goes this week. Understandably, many people are jumping on the Teresa bandwagon because Diane's Friends is a pretty strong spoiler that hasn't been wrong to date. However, this is my thinking why Clarence goes this week: the players may or may not have been told that there WILL be a merge but my assumption that they are thinking all along "there will be a merge in ep.7 or ep.8 because we've got to merge before we have to boot someone that goes into the jury." The ep.8 bootee will be the first jury member assuming that the jury will, once again, have 7 members to decide the final two. Unless the players have already been told there won't be 7 in the jury, there's no reason for them to think otherwise even if they know that MB crossed them up with the 3-for-3 twist. So... I believe that the players will assume that if there's no merger in this week's episode, then it HAS to be in ep.8 because they'll think "no way can we have someone on the jury if there's no merger yet" -- so they will want to target the strongest first instead of somebody weak. Therefore... bye bye Clarence if the Borans go to TC this episode without a merge happening yet. Just my humble opinion. I've been wrong before... but Clarence got a lot of face time with the chickens while Teresa is still unknown. "Damn you, Carl, for leaving me here with a bunch of misfits." Frank Garrison, Nov. 1/01   Top

Stairway2Dayton 104 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 11-19-01, 02:04 PM (EST) 5. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" LAST EDITED ON 11-19-01 AT 02:06 PM (EST) Ya know, I've been wondering about the face time. The editors want, above all, for us to like or hate the contestants. That's where the ratings are. If we're indifferent, we won't watch. (Well, we'll watch, but regular people won't.) However, they only have so much to work with. The whole Clarence/chicken/egg routine was cute, and made C likeable. It was more interesting than watching them lie around. Since they don't want to give away the strategizing, it was all they had left - and Clarence just happened to be a central part of the whole thing. The only think Teresa does is make faces. Maybe it's her real estate agent / flight attendant background. Serve the coffee and smile, but don't rile up the waters. Booooring. S2D **edited for grammar - is it "lay" or "lie"?   Top

zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 11-19-01, 02:33 PM (EST) 6. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" Stairway-- I agree with you. The face time rule is a very rough rule. The producers only have the material they have and try to tell the most interesting story. Some people get almost no face time--e.g., Amber and Nick in S2. I know others have made this point before. If Teresa seems to be getting a little more than usual face time in the beginning of E7, watch for her exit. I forget who makes this point, but one of the regular posters has repeatedly said that pre-merge it is only the episode in which you are booted that you necessarily get more face time. Other than that, if you have not been that interesting, you don't get much face time. Teresa has been in the background I think because she is just not that interesting. MB would much rather show the very funny chicken/egg exchange with Clarence than to show some boring confessional by the boring Teresa--face time be damned. If she wanted more face time before her boot she should have been more interesting. Clarence's face time certainly makes it possible that his story is played out and he may be going. But Teresa's lack of face time may only mean that she never had anything interesting to say. I am still leaning toward Teresa to be booted E7.   Top

Rose Red 419 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star" 11-19-01, 02:51 PM (EST) 7. "Editing Teresa" I have to point out a couple of things about Teresa. One is that her good friend Linda called the editing of Teresa "a crime" in one of her interviews. "She talked to the camera constantly and contributed a lot. She's a wonderful, interesting woman, and had a lot to say. They've edited her out almost completely." So far. Last year this was also true of Amber and Elizabeth, too, who once Miss Camerahog of the 21st Century, Jerri, was gone, SUDDENLY all the other women began to emerge from her shadow, Tina, too, if my memory serves. Now that psycho Lindsey is gone, we'll see MUCH more of Kim Pee, Kelly and Teresa. Why would they even have Teresa on this show if they thought she was so boring? Any answers, anyone? Also, I think we now know why Diane's list was so long. There isn't going to be a merge til there's SEVEN and that makes it a FIVE person jury, plus the final two. This could explain Clarence's AND Teresa's place on her list. I hate to say it, but she also liked Ethan. Now, could the potential first place winner, Ethan, make a fatal mistake and vote Clarence out this week, giving the Sambooboran Two a chance to go up against him and Mamakim in a tie-breaker, and Ethan goes, too? I sure hope not.   Top

Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 11-20-01, 04:57 AM (EST) 8. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" Pepe, I was thinking along the lines you post, that Boran had planned to boot Clarence just before the merge. I now believe the last pre-merge episode is #7. But your post about the jury turned on a little light bulb in my head. Originally, Boran's only option when going to TC was to boot a Boran member. It had to be one of their own, so who? Now that's all changed. Boran is still loyal to Boran and they have two Samburus they can boot. The next bootee is the last one not on the jury. They want to stack the jury with as many original Boran members as possible. Clarence is Boran, on the fringe or no. Boran doesn't know what may be shaping up over in Samburu or who may be defecting, so they will stick together. Simple. Frank is a useful guy, liked by both Ethan and Clarence, and when he loses Teresa, a guy with no original allies left in the game except the Boran that he happily joined. I still argue that MamaKim does not need or want a second mother figure in the end tribe. The mother figure adds comfort to the tribe and you want one to be there after the merge. Teresa is competition, not an ally. Similarly, Kelly would like KimP to go for the same reason she wanted Lindsey out, she wants to be the one young girl left, instead of always the least athletic girl. Players are starting to define their roles, and they will want to lose the people who seem quite similar to themselves. (Good news for Tom, as he's sure in a class of his own, no?) As for Clarence being an IC threat--that is not that big a deal right at the merge. A person who starts winning IC then becomes a target, and then they lose. Colby had a special quality of athleticism and smarts that helped him win so many ICs. Lex or Ethan could make an IC run, but Clarence will falter. Meanwhile, he is a vote to get rid of the minority Samburus, and they will keep him. Clarence would have tried allying with Silas, but we have noticed that Clarence likes manly men, and he is not going to run to Brandon. Boran simply doesn't know Teresa well enough to trust her loyalty to old Boran, half of whom she has never bonded with. Also, to Rose Red, Clarence is not really on Diane's list, not included in the same group. When Diane did her interviews, the first episode had just aired, with the very controversial truth debate between her and Clarence. She needed to clarify that they didn't perpetuate the enmity that we saw at the end of Ep 1 after the game ended. So she gave her whole list, all of whom have been booted but Teresa, then she said 'most everybody, and then FINALLY she did the PR bit and said "even Clarence" at the very very end. Clarence and Teresa are simply not interchangeable members of the list. Diane and Clarence had every motivation to contact each other and patch up their quarrel, at least for the cameras, before the show aired, and they had well over a month in the States to do that. Some people need to get in touch and do; the spoilers are when people who did not relate much in the game say they bonded; in the past it's happened when they were sequestered together. Because Teresa is finally getting featured in the previews, I am no longer worried about her face time. I also wonder if Burnett expected lower ratings on Thanksgiving and so could afford to let the bootee be underdeveloped, and also he must have known that would be a bad date for the merge. But--it's probable that at the end of TC in Ep 7 they will be told they're about to merge, which will throw a bone to the viewers who are fed up with not knowing what the new rules are. I think we'll have a holiday, a recap, and that will build up for them all coming together in an uneven number, which is a good thing, as it won't force people to line up in 2 blocs of 5 each as in S2. The only interest in the 5-5 merge match-up was discovering prior votes, which would determine the dominant tribe. Well, been there and done that in the last two episodes. Time for a regrouping that does not center on prior votes and focuses instead on other, more interesting, priorities for choosing individual targets.   Top

PepeLePew13 26134 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 11-20-01, 08:09 AM (EST) 9. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" >I also wonder if Burnett expected lower ratings on Thanksgiving >and so could afford to let the bootee be underdeveloped, and >also he must have known that would be a bad date for the >merge. But--it's probable that at the end of TC in Ep 7 >they will be told they're about to merge, which will throw a >bone to the viewers who are fed up with not knowing what the >new rules are. > >I think we'll have a holiday, a recap, and that will >build up for them all coming together in an uneven >number, which is a good thing, as it won't force >people to line up in 2 blocs of 5 each as in S2. >The only interest in the 5-5 merge match-up was >discovering prior votes, which would determine the >dominant tribe. OFG, you make some terrific points in your post. This would fit in well with why the merge is being pushed back by one week -- so many things fit: 5-4 split = better TV, merge then bootees go to jury, holiday = lower ratings so ciao Teresa, holiday = lower ratings so less impact if merge shown here, etc. Keeping Clarence for the jury to stack it with Borans for the final vote is a good idea. One potential problem (if you can call it that) I can see is that Kim P and Brandon will also be on the jury (if Teresa goes this week) and who knows... Clarence might bond with them during the jury sequestering and vote along with these two -- why not, he hasn't truly bonded with most of the original Borans and knows that Tom & Ethan (& Lex?) doesn't like him all that much. What is Clarence's motivation for staying with some of the original Borans if he bonds with the other young ones in the jury? I do know that he is not apt to run to someone like Brandon but in terms of age bonding... who else might he bond with? For all we know, he might not actually bond with anyone on the jury at all as he might rather stick to the buffet table in Loser Lodge every night. Something still tells me that the desire to boot Clarence is strong so there's a good chance in my mind that he goes this week. I'll be glad, though, if I'm wrong and it's Teresa that goes because it makes for better TV to have Clarence and his comments and potential conflicts with Tom/Ethan/Frank/Lex around than to have plain, boring Teresa -- she may be a nicer person but not exciting TV. "Damn you, Carl, for leaving me here with a bunch of misfits." Frank Garrison, Nov. 1/01   Top

zzz 703 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 11-20-01, 09:19 AM (EST) 10. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" Outfrontgirl-- Great analysis that is pretty much in line with what I have been saying and expands on it in a clear and convincing manner. I do have 2 minor areas of disagreement, but they are pretty inconsequential. One is that I believe that if there were a merge in E7, Teresa would be safe for a while. I don't think KimJ feels threatened by Teresa because KimJ has a strong alliance and Teresa does not. There is no risk of KimJ being supplanted. If there were a merge, immunity threats like Frank would be a much bigger target for KimJ than Teresa. I believe the only reason Teresa is gone is because Boran is paranoid the merge may not come for a while and need to keep Frank for chores and challenges. The other area of disagreement is that you think MB does not want to merge at 10 because we have seen the 5-5 split already and it is old. I do not believe that this could have been his thinking right now because he knows that there would not be a 5-5 split--rather old Boran would use their 6-4 advantage to further dismantle old Samburu (probably to get Frank as the biggest immunity threat among old Samburu) and past votes would be irrelevant. I think the reason for a delayed merge is because ratings drop off after the merge and he wants to give the cross-tribal alliances a few more days to form if possible (unfortunately for MB, I do not think there will be any cross-tribal alliances, but he gave it the old college try). One more point about Clarence being too dangerous to keep around. Remember that when Kelly and Colby did their immunity runs, all the other good athletes had already been booted (e.g., Gretchen, Greg, Alicia, Nick). As long as Ethan and Lex are still around, Clarence only has the advantage in brute strength. Ethan and Lex have demonstrated that they are excellent athletes. And as many have pointed out, not all competitions are physical, and Clarence does not seem to have any sort of edge in the non-physical (e.g., I think that both Kelly and Colby were perceptive and observant and won the "fallen comrades" challenge). So I agree that, at least for a while, tribal loyalties will keep Clarence around.   Top

Rose Red 419 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star" 11-20-01, 10:58 AM (EST) 11. "Women Beward Women" Excellent, OFG! And you've brought up another point that I've noticed - sadly - in this game that women are other womens worst enemies. Look at what Tina did to the other women on the show! She got rid of them! Yes, Mamakim sees T-Bird as a threat, sadly. Also, Kelly vs. Kim Pee. However, I somehow feel that Kelly is gonna lose that one, as strange as that seems today. This week may reveal an entirely new Kim Pee. Was it Carl or Linda who said Kim Pee had a " heart of gold"? Her incredible devotion to Brandon was very moving in the last show. Kelly may strategize herself out of the game entirely. I don't know how Lex and Tom feel about her. Do you?   Top

red 140 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 11-20-01, 02:33 PM (EST) 12. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" >Pepe, I was thinking along the >lines you post, that Boran >had planned to boot Clarence >just before the merge. > Agree completely > >But your post about the jury >turned on a little light >bulb in my head. >Originally, Boran's only option when >going to TC was to >boot a Boran member. >It had to be one >of their own, so who? This is true too. But is Clarence really one of their own when they get down to it? Isn't he just as likely to turn as Frank & Teresa? I don't know the answer to that. > > They want to stack >the jury with as many >original Boran members as possible. > Clarence is Boran, on >the fringe or no. This is where I disagree with you. Whether "they" want to stack the jury with Boran depends on who "they" are. If its true that Ethan and Clarence don't get along (as Kelly has said) then isn't it logical that Ethan would not want Clarence on jury? > > >I still argue that MamaKim does >not need or want a >second mother figure in the >end tribe. The mother >figure adds comfort to the >tribe and you want one >to be there after the >merge. Teresa is competition, >not an ally. This is my second problem. Just because Mark Burnett edits these people to be nice little stereotypes, doesn't mean they think of themselves that way. She's the mother figure, he's the alpha male, he's the funny oddball - since when do you look around and say I'm the girl next door and so is she! We can't have two of us! I'm sure the differences between KimJ and T-bird are more obvious and far reaching than we're allowed to see. They view each other as people, not as mother figures or Tina substitutes. > >Similarly, Kelly would like KimP to >go for the same reason >she wanted Lindsey out, she >wants to be the one >young girl left, instead of >always the least athletic girl. Again, a very broad assumption that kelly and Kim are the same "type" and there's only room for one. > >Players are starting to define their >roles, and they will want >to lose the people who >seem quite similar to themselves. They're not playing to become a "type", Mark Burnett is editing them that way. Alright, I'm done beating this dead horse. > > >As for Clarence being an IC >threat--that is not that big >a deal right at the >merge. Actually, that's always a big deal. Ethan said he should throw the challenge to take out Silas - his biggest threat - while he could. He meant because Silas is athletic. Same goes for Clarence. Although, realistically, Ethan is a bigger immunity threat than Clarence. He just wants to take out his strong competitors. A person who >starts winning IC then becomes >a target, and then they >lose. The game has always been about targetting those who might be immunity threats - that's why Greg was picked off so soon (and for being smart.) Same with Alicia. You want to take these people out before they're a problem and can run with it. > >Lex or Ethan could make an >IC run, but Clarence will >falter. Agree that he's not as versatile an athlete as Ethan. I really have no idea what Lex's capabilities are. > >Boran simply doesn't know Teresa well >enough to trust her loyalty >to old Boran, half of >whom she has never bonded >with. Does this matter when Samburu is outnumbered, assuming final two are both Boran? I'm pointing these things out because it seems Ethan may have an advantage with Teresa over his old Boran teammates on the other side. and he's the one controlling the votes on Boran.. > . > > My final point is that I do think Teresa goes next, but not for the reasons you state. I think if Boran flat out knew when the merge was and if it was in fact in the next three days then Clarence would be out. Because they don't know, Ethan and KimJ can't allowed themselves the threat of a 2-2 split with Samburu, can't afford to lose Clarence if they have to keep competing for Rewards and Immunity, and will therefore pick off Teresa.   Top

Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 11-20-01, 02:39 PM (EST) 13. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" > They want to stack >the jury with as many >original Boran members as possible. > Clarence is Boran, on >the fringe or no. > >Boran doesn't know what may be >shaping up over in Samburu >or who may be defecting, >so they will stick together. > Simple. Frank is >a useful guy, liked by >both Ethan and Clarence, and >when he loses Teresa, a >guy with no original allies >left in the game except >the Boran that he happily >joined. This really hit me when you said it, and it makes sense to me now why Boran would vote out Teresa. Why not Clarence -- He's a known commodity, and he's been getting closer to Ethan and Kim of late (think of the IC Ethan-hoisting). This would help the three of them protect themselves in case L/K/T are getting a lot closer in their new tribe, or in case the remaining Sambabies are getting in on an alliance with them. Since mK/E only see them for the challenges, they can't be sure what's going on over there. And with his prior votes, he's an nice target to have around for ties. Kim and Ethan know that at this point they win a tiebreaker with him. Why not Frank -- Boran learns of Lindsey's outster at RC. That leaves two Sambabies over there who are in need of new alliances. If they make it to the merge, they will be a lot more likely to try and ally with Teresa than Frank. Frank's opinion of the Sambabies has been quite obvious. Frank will be a man without an alliance and can be dragged along like a Keith without having anyone on the jury who would be loyal to him. He's also protection for mK/E in case the L/K/T alliance has gotten tight. You know, MamaKim and Ethan would be in great shape if they could get a final four with Frank and Clarence. Both have prior votes, so either would be a good target in a 2-2 tie, and at this point, neither one would be preferred by the jury.   Top

red 140 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 11-20-01, 02:48 PM (EST) 14. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" LAST EDITED ON 11-20-01 AT 02:53 PM (EST) Frank will >be a man without an >alliance and can be dragged >along like a Keith without >having anyone on the jury >who would be loyal to >him. He's also protection >for mK/E in case the >L/K/T alliance has gotten tight. Now this is what interests me. Because he actually isn't like Keith since he was originially on a different tribe. Its all wild speculation, but something makes me think they'll keep him around - and this may blow up in their faces. > > >You know, MamaKim and Ethan would >be in great shape if >they could get a final >four with Frank and Clarence. > Both have prior votes, >so either would be a >good target in a 2-2 >tie, and at this point, >neither one would be preferred >by the jury. This is an interesting theory. You're right - it would be a great final four for KimJ and Ethan. I don't think it will happen as I think Ethan will stick with his first loyalties, but its just about the smartest strategy I've read so far. *edited to add that well, its smart as long as they don't get themselves in a position to go up against Frank. I think they might have some jury Lex/Tom/Kelly animosity as a result of this strategy that would hurt them. Actually, all in all, it might work against Ethan to go this route if he's made previous commitments. But I still like the thinking...   Top

Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 11-20-01, 03:21 PM (EST) 15. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" I don't have much time to respond so forgive me please for not addressing everybody by their point, but I much appreciate you all took the effort to take up the points I posted. Bebo, you said of C: He's a known commodity, and he's been getting closer to Ethan and Kim of late (think of the IC Ethan-hoisting). Yes. Why did Ethan run and jump in Clarence's arms if he still hates him? How many episodes since we saw a confessional where Ethan talked about his dislike of Clarence? Instead we have seen Ethen telling Silas he wanted Clarence out. Insider last week we see Clarence giving Ethan big credit for winning the archery IC. Clarence and Ethan are not great friends, but they're both athletes/sports people. We shouldn't underestimate the "known commodity" factor. Kelly's Insider Clips, for example, say that the GXA seem nice but she doesn't know them well enough to trust them. So far in the 3 Editions of Survivor we have not seen anyone run to a real alliance with people they didn't know well. We saw Jenna and Colleen try to woo Kelly, and Amber and Elisabeth getting to know each other, and Nick and Colby, but when push comes to shove, people have to trust that someone will vote as they've agreed with you they will vote when you go to TC. There's so little trust in this game, that you stick with what little trust you can establish. You get there through daily dependence on each other in the camp and other forms of bonding. You don't go up to people you don't know very well, especially when they could advance their own position by selling you out to the people you're betraying. The Boran in Samburu knew they couldn't trust Lindsey to vote Brandon, that she'd probably switch. She knew she couldn't trust them... Clarence couldn't trust Silas, even though he liked him, and he voted with Boran. We speak lightly of people picking up loose allies/votes and joining them out of expediency, but we don't see that played out in the game. Instead we see people sticking with the alliance they know, even if, like Amber and Clarence and Sean, they are at the outside edge. As to people shaping themselves into MB stereotypes, red, first I agree with Rose Red that we have seen the examples, such as Tina getting rid of her friend Maralyn and becoming the tribe Mom. They do think about how they can offer the tribe something unique, some reason to be kept around, whether as emotional pillars, food providers, cooks, the cute girl, the entertainer. When I said Kelly wanted to be the last young girl standing, I was going by her own words. She has been looking for a role since the game started. She herself picked KimP and Lindsey as threats to her position. We tend to forget that by merge time these people feel like they have been isolated together forever. They are like a family, and when they go to TC they cry. It hurts more to boot out Mom or Dad or someone who fills an emotional void. That's why Rodger made it the 5th place. They wanted him around. I think Burnett gets his stereotypes by observing that when you take people out of normal society they tend to type themselves. It's a way of restoring social organization. zzz, I don't think we disagree about the merge. I've been guessing for weeks that it happens in 8. I suggested above that after the TC vote in 7 (bootee choice final), that Jeff MIGHT say, OK, get ready to merge next time, giving the viewers some sense of direction to anchor them through the Recap show, while maintaining suspense about where they will live and the details. Finally, I do agree with everyone that Clarence is a threat as a strong guy, but he simply won't win them all, and there are 5 other Boran who can vote him out any time he loses. Tribal loyalty? Clarence has NEVER voted against anyone at TC except the tribe's choice for TC. He betrayed trust with the food; he has earned their trust as a voter, and that makes him more valuable to the tribe than Teresa, relatively unknown quantity. Certainly he's more trustworthy than Brandon once they merge. I think he has a position for the very short run, although not the long haul.   Top

red 140 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 11-20-01, 05:33 PM (EST) 16. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" > >As to people shaping themselves into >MB stereotypes, red, first >I agree with Rose Red >that we have seen the >examples, such as Tina getting >rid of her friend Maralyn >and becoming the tribe Mom. Come on, you don't really think tina got rid of Maralynn so she could be the "tribe Mom" do you? That has nothing to do with why she got rid of Maralynn, and besides, Maralynn wasn't being made out to be a "mom" type, more of a character type. And Tina also didn't win by being "tribe mom", she won by her alliance with Colby. MB made her out as a "mom" type for the audiences sake. I personally think that when you look at Tina Wesson outside of the game she doesn't fit my stereotype of a Martha Stewart mom. > They do think about >how they can offer the >tribe something unique, some reason >to be kept around, whether >as emotional pillars, food providers, >cooks, the cute girl, the >entertainer. It has never been proven that anyone has ever been kept around in a game because of the "role" they serve, although everyone has tried to be useful to stay alive. Sure, people cook, fish, etc. to stay in the game, but in the end alliances come to the forefront. Furthermore, no one has ever stayed in the game because they were the cute girl. The benefit of being the "cute girl" after merge is that you're viewed as not being an immunity threat so you get to stick along longer than the more athletic players. But, as with any stereotype, I'd have to break these down specifically to prove my point. Everyone is a different case - Colleen and Liz had totally different dynamics with their merged tribe and stuck around for totally different reasons. Neither was kept because they were cute. > >When I said Kelly wanted to >be the last young girl >standing, I was going by >her own words. She >has been looking for a >role since the game started. > She herself picked KimP >and Lindsey as threats to >her position. I don't recall hearing her say this. However, due to work and Friends, there have been moments in Survivor 3 that I haven't seen. > > >I think Burnett gets his stereotypes >by observing that when you >take people out of normal >society they tend to type >themselves. It's a way >of restoring social organization. I really don't buy this at all. It goes against all my common sense regarding both human nature and show business. Have you ever known a stereotype? People are complex beings, and I don't think anyone has ever done well in survivor by being a stereotype. > >   Top

Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 11-20-01, 06:08 PM (EST) 17. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" red, I totally agree with you that people are complex and don't set out to stereotype themselves, and I agree that neither Tina nor Maralyn are classically maternal women. I meant to make a distinction between a type and a stereotype, the latter being like a complete formula. When I said "type," I was thinking of a milder form of identification with an established role, a means of distinguishing oneself from the herd rather than diminishing one's complexity as an individual. I do think that people fill emotional as well as practical and political niches in the dynamics of an isolated group. I also think it would feel weird for the Survivors to be out there with either no women or no men for very long. Thus, in a game where there are only 4 women left, I still think that the last two women standing are in a great position, and the last older woman standing in particular, because the game will get so alpha male topheavy that the women will stay. But if you think emotion and gender and parental identifications don't matter, and that only the game and alliances matter, I can certainly respect that point of view.   Top

red 140 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Blistex Spokesperson" 11-20-01, 06:28 PM (EST) 18. "RE: ***Character Development, Life After Moocow***" > >But if you think emotion and >gender and parental identifications don't >matter, and that only the >game and alliances matter, I >can certainly respect that point >of view. I don't mean to say that these things don't matter. Every game is different. They didn't matter in Survivor 1. They did matter in Survivor 2. However, even in S2 it's more complicated - Colby bonded with Tina, not a generic mother figure. I just don't think players look at it this way. It doesn't make sense to me in terms of strategy. I would also like to add that Ethan and Lex seem to be similar "types" within the tribes as far as we can tell from the editing. Yet they don't seem threatened by each other. I just feel that if I were playing the game, I'd be more concerned with who I could trust, who needs my vote etc. than whether I might be a type that there might be more than one of.   Top

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