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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 04-24-01, 02:30 AM (EST) "Amber Final Chat comments on Final 4" LAST EDITED ON 04-24-01 AT 03:44 PM (EST) Backstabbing and Manipulation: 2 Survivor deadly sins. Does rest of jury share this aversion? I've excerpted Amber's comments on each of the Final 4, which may provide insight into jury point-of-view and/or provide spoilers as to who's in the running for the Grand Prize. I'm daring to start a new thread because the strategy threads are so long already and I hope to provoke some analysis on these specific comments. I think those on Tina and Colby are most interesting and spoilerish, but I've perversely added them last, to make the order progress from benign to critical. 1) ELISABETH CortlynBC99: Amber, did you and Elisabeth get along well after the merge? It seemed it, but then she voted you off twice in a row. Did you consider her one of your closest friends in Barramundi? Amber Brkich: Elisabeth and I did get very close during the merge. We had a lot in common and we're close in age. I think her voting for me was just her playing the game and I had voted for her previously also. We joked about it afterwards and she said "Hey, I owed you one" and we joked about it -- we're still good friends. 2) KEITH allibug: Have you ever tasted any of Keith's cooking off the island? Amber Brkich: *laughs* No, I haven't been able to eat any of his food, but I do have a couple of recipes of his and I'm looking forward to trying them out. I would, though, like to try Keith's cooking in the future. 3) COLBY Amber_Rules: Did you see when Colby cheated to pass you in the reward challenge? Amber Brkich: I didn't realize at the time that he had cheated until recently when a lot of people pointed that out to me. But the game's over now and I have no hard feelings. ------------------- Bort: Did anyone realize how manipulative Colby was at the time or did they all play into his game? Amber Brkich: We had noticed early on that Colby couldn't make up his mind of who to stick with or who to trust, so we knew that he was being somewhat manipulative. 4) TINA Locke_The_Survivor_Canadian: What do you think of Tina? kuchababe: Do you think Tina was as manipulative as she appeared to be to us? Amber Brkich: I think Tina's reputation changed dramatically throughout the game. In the beginning, she seemed like she was the "Mom" and most caring of the group, but towards the end, she definitely became very manipulative and I know it's the prize money. FINAL FOUR (plus Rodger) MadAdder: It seems like the contestants remaining are nicer, more good-hearted, and less manipulative than those in the first show. Is this the case? Amber Brkich: I don't think completely. I think the people that are left over, however, do get along better as a group. Everybody seemed nice but living in such conditions can bring out the worst in people. BACKSTABBING (read TINA): SurvivorFan86: Hey Amber, do you think that betraying a friend that you make in the Outback and voting them off is really worth a million dollars? GoColbyAndElisabeth: Do you feel that the backstabbing and lying is a key part of the game, or one that could be avoided? Amber Brkich: Well, since I really feel that I didn't betray or backstab anybody I guess it isn't worth a million dollars unless those people who got their feelings hurt are willing to forgive afterwards. I'll keep my observations short here. LIS: When did they joke about it afterwards? At the ranch? At the wrap party? Back home in U.S.? Nothing to set Lis apart as final contender. KEITH: No personal contact apparent but also no hard feelings and willingness to do his food justice now and in future. No hint of any payback urges shared with Jerri. COLBY: Also no hard feelings, even after learning he cheated her out of cowbow slumber party. Didn't see much of his character until afterwards, similar to Jerri. Interesting suggestion that his early tendency to waver on alliances may have manifested later on as well. Concedes he was "manipulative" but the questioner used the term first. TINA: When A speaks of her "reputation" changing, it sounds like she means with the players rather than the TV audience. From Mom to Manipulator: sounds like the jury might not approve of the radical shift! Specific mention of prize money only in ref to Tina. On backstabbing: Amber, in contrast, wouldn't do it for the million. Specifically mentions the factor of whether everyone will forgive you for the way you play, and implies the answer is 'no.' On whether the group is "more good-hearted and less manipulative" than S1 finalists: Again, no, they only might seem that way. This reminds me of JP's question to Tina about whether she thinks the players remaining are better teamplayers or make for a better camp experience (inexact paraphrase, sorry, can't remember specific words). Amber basically says they might get along better as a group but they're NOT the good guys--not even compared to Rich, Susan, Kelly, and Rudy, so what does that say about them? In sum--Manipulative and backstabber emerge as the deadly survivor sins in Amber's book. Could this reflect general or majority sentiment on jury? Here's hoping others see some spoiler potential here and run with it. -------------- AMBER PARTING QUOTES "I would definitely try out again and definitely play it the same way that I did." Caption: Amber, 6th out of 16, proves Shakes' assessment of her correct. Well, some people really enjoy those lovely parting gifts. ---------------- Q to Amber: "Do you think you might use this experience to do some good in the world? (i.e., join the Peace Corps, or feed the hungry?)" Amber Brkich: "I would definitely like to use my experience to do good and try to help out people who need it." Caption: Amber blows her cue to practice her Miss America competition speech, by lowering the bar for herself and raising the bar for who deserves her help. In the process, Amber definitely makes the word definitely a runner-up for most definitely over-used mode of emphasis.   Top

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    RE: Amber Final Chat comments on Fi... janisella 04-24-01 1  RE: Amber Final Chat comments on Fi... lswote 04-24-01 2    RE: Amber Final Chat comments on Fi... Outfrontgirl 04-24-01 3        which is why Lis goes? flying squirrel 04-24-01 4            RE: which is why Lis goes? Outfrontgirl 04-24-01 5        Keith well-liked? Loree 04-25-01 6            RE: Keith well-liked? Bebo 04-25-01 7

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janisella 698 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Reality Show Commentator" 04-24-01, 09:34 AM (EST) 1. "RE: Amber Final Chat comments on Final 4" OFG, I found your observations to be quite insightful and interesting. Thanks for collecting these quotes. I've been thinking for awhile that Keith would beat Tina if they're the final two because while Keith may not be everyone's best friend, he appears to be playing the game honestly and competitively. I also think Tina's "deserving" comments at the EP11 TC may have opened a few jury members' eyes, much like Jerri's "friends" comments earlier on that opened Keith and Tina's eyes. At this point, anybody getting voted off will not be at the ranch for very long, so comments about friendships are not a very good indicator.   Top

lswote 63 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Hollywood Squares Square" 04-24-01, 11:01 AM (EST) 2. "RE: Amber Final Chat comments on Final 4" I interpret Tina's playing of the game differently than suggested in the original post. While this is Amber's take on Tina, I am not sure it can be used as a generalization for others on the jury. I think Tina has shown herself to be a decent person and the players that paint her as backstabbing and manipulative are the ones who seem to have the hardest time keeping the fact they are playing a game in focus. In a game, can you really backstab someone? Or is the person who was "backstabbed" just forgetting to play the game. Mad Dog is cited as an example of Tina's backstabbing, but she seemed to stop playing the game early on, and was more interested in the experience than the game. Why are people more upset with Tina for her perceived betrayal of Mad Dog than they are at Mad Dog for wasting our time by dropping game play early on? Likewise Mitch. He was a weak player who gave no thought to overall strategy other than to align with Jerri. It wasn't betrayal when Tina led a successful offensive to get his inflexible ass booted from the game, it was good game playing. Tina apparently has been very thoughtful with her fellow contestants postgame as it is reported that she sent Valentines to everyone and was even the only contestant to remember Nick's birthday. I think what Tina was able to do was keep in focus game play better than the others but tried to as remain to her true personality as playing the game would allow. Those that forgot there was a game being played probably saw this as duplicitous, but that is their fault, not hers. If Tina gets before a jury and can make a case that she was in fact playing the game as well as she felt she could, then much like Rich in Survivor I, she may win the respect of the jury and prevail.   Top

Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 04-24-01, 04:39 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Amber Final Chat comments on Final 4" Janisella--thank you and I agree that the question here is whether Tina becomes most disliked at the end rather than Keith, who is currently everyone's first choice to stand with at the end. First Jerri and now Amber are criticizing Tina's perceived change from a "mom" figure into a manipulative backstabber, and Amber specifically mentions the prize money. I think that provides support to what everyone already thinks, that Tina will be one of the two before the jury. Iswote--although I understand what you're saying about playing a game competitively, I would respectfully offer counter-opinions on a couple points. 1) Normally people don't play team games that put them through semi-starvation and physical privation unlike what they've ever known, at the same time thrown together with an inter-dependent small group, on which they rely yet are forced to destabilize every three days by voting someone out. Neither do most games cause you to 1) seek alliances at the same time you must 2) distrust alliances and loyalties. These factors combine to make relationships and bonds of utmost importance and not easily distanced by the intellectual knowledge that it's a game. 2) At the risk of committing the sin of going with a gender stereotype--it seems that the women in both Survivors have had more of a problem with betrayal by their allies than the men. Maybe that's because women tend to socialize and survive through forming supportive groups rather than viewing all others as competitors vieing for Alpha-male status. The difference between backstabbing and respect-earning competitive playing is simple: the former involves telling someone you are voting one way and then pulling a coup by voting another way and surprising a trusting victim to whose face you gave assurances. At any rate, I know from experience that one of the most hurtful games girls learn to play is where they suddenly switch from one best friend to another. The pain of having friends desert you for another alliance can strike a very deep chord. We saw in S1 that Susan was an untrusting woman who came to trust Kelly and then felt hugely betrayed. In Tina's case, she chose to cast her early persona as "Mom," not as diehard triathlete competitor. By switching personas, she runs the risk of having every likable aspect of her personality viewed as hypocritical and phony at the end, which will not earn a respect vote, IMO. 3) Janisella (above) makes a distinction between "honest" playing (Keith) and "backstabbing" (Tina)--and we have evidence now that at least two of the female jurors disapprove strongly of backstabbing and pride themselves on their honesty and loyalty to other players. They kept their promises; Tina didn't. Jerri and Alicia are now friends, so Alicia will at least listen to the argument, although I agree she's independent of mind. If Lis is a juror she may care, and Rodger will likely vote with Lis. Only 4 votes are needed to defeat someone. Rodger epitomizes placing ethical values and loyalty over the prize, and he and Lis share values. Rodger may like Tina as a fellow Southerner and Christian closer to his age than most, but he may form the opinion, once on the jury, that Tina's behavior has been more Judaslike than Christian. Judas does not get a respect vote from the Christian coalition for what he did to survive. Tina may be sending out nice cards, but that may be an attempt to reinstate her nice persona after having lost it; that doesn't mean everyone respects her decision to play ruthlessly. To sum up, in both casts there have been players who are searching for a way to win without betraying the trust of others, and who have balanced the desire to win the money against the knowledge that they'll be judged by their peers and by a national audience as to their ethical moves and whether they played "nice" and "fair." The rules of most games include definitions of "foul" plays, but in Survivor those definitions are left open and are decided during play. That doesn't mean, however, that all actions are considered fair play. Survivor 1's jury mostly voted for whom they disliked the least, much like with our political elections these days, and I expect the same to apply here. Everyone agrees that Lis wins if she makes Final 2 even though she wasn't much of a strategizer, because she was nice, appealing, and had strong values, so it seems that "played the game ruthlessly and survived" is at best a backup rationale for picking the winner.   Top

flying squirrel 290 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Network TV Show Guest Star" 04-24-01, 05:36 PM (EST) 4. "which is why Lis goes?" If each of the Ogakor 3 agrees that he or she can't beat Lis in the final two, she has to get voted off this week. Tina and Colby are playing the game too ruthlessly to take the chance of Lis winning the final IC. Amber's comments make it sound like "Lizz just is not" ... long for the Outback, that is, "Billy Bob" or no "Billy Bob". PS: no criticism of Lis intended, LIZZLOVER. I hope her fiance makes it with the Bills!   Top

Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 04-24-01, 06:14 PM (EST) 5. "RE: which is why Lis goes?" Flying Squirrel-- I also thought Amber's ref to Lis sounded like Amber related to Lis as someone like her who fell by the wayside--not as the other young girl who, unlike Amber, walked away with the mil. Lis could fit that by going this time or next time I think. I'm sure they all want Lis out of competition, but the question is how do they assess her as a threat for IC next time? Have they gotten so used to the strong men winning that they forget about possible challenges like "know your fellow Survivors"? (Even on that, Tina could probably win it too.) I'm starting to wonder if maybe this is the week where Jesus and the dead-on spoilers go wrong/turn into herrings, and maybe Keith goes, with Tina and Colby the F2. Both Jerri and Amber talk about Colby as if they remained positive about him during the game, but since then have learned some things. They show more lingering interest in him and very little with Keith. Neither of them commented on his game-playing, only on his food and Jerri on the personality conflict. I would think they'd be less flat about Keith if his name had been up for debate. Jerri talked about Colby's strategy and said "Colby--he's an interesting character." She has also said she'd revive their friendship if he were to make the first move. I'm well aware that Jerri's trying to deal with his sexual rejection of her, but I wonder if she didn't also actively support him as winner, and now feels a bit blindsided when she sees him on the air saying nasty things about her. She would be hurt but refrain from being really harsh on him. Why? She'd never admit to having made the wrong choice for her vote). Amber says about Colby, no hard feelings, because the game is over now. Maybe he went to the end of the game. Maybe she too doesn't want to critique the person who got her vote for winner. I've been a proponent of Colby getting the boot this week, so it's a switch for me to even consider it might be Keith. What do others think?   Top

Loree 8616 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 04-25-01, 03:03 PM (EST) 6. "Keith well-liked?" I remember earlier we were using a phrase that Mike said about Keith to see who made the merge. Mike said that he never really spent time with Keith. But he heard good things about him from the other survivors. If people were saying good things about Keith then he couldn't have been as disliked as alot of the viewers think. I think Keith could win a vote over Tina from the jury. Some people were telling Mike nice things about Keith.   Top

Bebo 21083 desperate attention whore postings DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold" 04-25-01, 03:22 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Keith well-liked?" LAST EDITED ON 04-25-01 AT 03:33 PM (EST) >If people were >saying good things about Keith >then he couldn't have been >as disliked as alot of >the viewers think. I think this was a strategic move on the part of the Ogies. The only encounters Mike had with Ogies during the game was pre-merger. They were savvy enough to find out who Debb voted for in the first boot, so that they would know who to target in a post-merger vote. Along the same lines, they could have been putting smoke screens out to prevent the Kucha from finding out if Keith had prior votes. Even Scerri recognized the importance of hiding her real feelings about him from the Kucha, to avoid losing a 5-5 tie on total votes and then watching her tribe get picked off one by one. They got the Debb info right at the start of the game, so it would stand to reason that they would be carefully guarding the info they were passing along to Kucha. edited to add...Mike's encounters with the other players within the game were very early, so his impressions would need to be discounted anyway. A lot happened in the days after he left the game -- plenty of time for people to change their opinion of Keith. There are many things he did after that point that affected the others' opinions of him. Obvious example -- Nick thought he was arrogant for not taking his backpack to TC. Think about S1, and how late in the game Sue was betrayed by Kelly. It's easy to keep a negative opinion of someone throughout the game, but the challenge is keeping a positive one, since one or two acts could quickly change it.   Top

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