LAST EDITED ON 04-08-05 AT 09:29 PM (EST)

I'll write this and then put on my asbestos suit.

It's something I've wondered about as well, especially the Gus and Hera moment at the slave gate in Senegal. Are Gus and Hera descended from slaves? Or is it just assumed because they are black they must be. I'm not denigrating their reactions at the slave gate, just wondering if it had personal meaning for them because they are descended from slaves or just a generic "we are black and can feel for the descendants of slaves".

Uchenna's father immigrated from Nigeria, so there is no way he can be a descendant from slaves, but is he given the same treatment as someone who is? Simply because he can call himself African American?

I guess that's my main question. What's with the labelling - African Amercian, Irish American, Italian American, Native American? Aren't you all Americans? Why does one group deserve special treatment because of their skin colour or ethnic descent? Even if they themselves are an African immigrant, are they treated the same as someone who can trace their family history back to a slave in the 1700's. Should they get the same favourable/unfavourable treatment? How long has it been since the last slave arrived in America? It's not like the slave trade finished 20 years ago and there are all these first generation slave descendents out there, with the memories of the hardship their parents faced fresh in their minds. I know there was segretation in parts of the US up until the 1960's, but that wasn't everywhere.

One of my husband's ancestors was an Irish convict, whose daughter married the son of a free settler from Scotland. Their son married a girl from Germany, and their son married a girl of English descent, and their son married an Australian girl with English ancestors, and their son (my husband) married me, who has English and Irish ancestors, including an English convict.

Would I feel all teary and felt like I was "coming home" if I visited England or Ireland. Nope - Australia is my home. I have no overwhelming burning desire to visit England or Ireland to search for my roots. My roots are here in Australia, where I was born, where my parents were born, where my grandparents were born and where some of my great grandparents were born.

If I do get the opportunity to travel overseas, I want to go to Canada.

*stands up and applauds*

Great post! You are right! Too many Americans are hung up on classifying people by their looks and/or heritage. Unfortunately, it happens every day here in America. We as a people are a long way off from acceptance of all cultures.

'nutz: Proud member of the inoffensive OT Triumvirate... and Shroomhater! - shroom go boom!

LAST EDITED ON 04-09-05 AT 00:12 AM (EST)

>It's something I've wondered about as
>well, especially the Gus and
>Hera moment at the slave
>gate in Senegal. Are
>Gus and Hera descended from
>slaves? Or is it
>just assumed because they are
>black they must be.

If they were not descended from slaves, chances are they would know this because they would be able to trace their family tree. Descendents (sp?) of slaves cannot usually trace their roots all the way back because who is going to keep medical records on slaves?

>I guess that's my main question.
> What's with the labelling
>- African Amercian, Irish American,
>Italian American, Native American? Aren't
>you all Americans? Why does
>one group deserve special treatment
>because of their skin colour
>or ethnic descent? Even
>if they themselves are an
>African immigrant, are they treated
>the same as someone who
>can trace their family history
>back to a slave in
>the 1700's. Should they
>get the same favourable/unfavourable treatment?

A lot of this is very idealistic. In an ideal world, your skin color would determine your physical appearance only, but in America and around the world it determines SO.MUCH.MORE.

>How long has it been
>since the last slave arrived
>in America? It's not
>like the slave trade finished
>20 years ago and there
>are all these first generation
>slave descendents out there, with
>the memories of the hardship
>their parents faced fresh in
>their minds. I know there
>was segretation in parts of
>the US up until the
>1960's, but that wasn't everywhere.

Also, slavery went on long after the the slave trade was outlawed. Even after the Emancipation Proclomation, most slaves had no money, no property, no anything so they "chose" to continue to be slaves. And as late as the 1940's (maybe even the 50's), a significant number of African Americans were sharecroppers, and almost all of them were not receiving a reasonable "share" of the profit. This was really just an extension of slavery.

And, segragation did not just mysteriously disappear and vanish from the country in the 1960's. Yes the Civil Rights Act was signed, but everyone did not just start integrating and lived happily ever after. There were still race riots across the country for decades afterwards.

Lastly, a lot of parents probably had to endure or witness Jim Crow segragation, lynchings, attacks and bombings of their neighborhoods. These stories get passed down. This could understandably cause a hatred and mistrust of White Americans that gets passed down to the next generation.

>One of my husband's ancestors was
>an Irish convict, whose daughter
>married the son of a
>free settler from Scotland.
>Their son married a girl
>from Germany, and their son
>married a girl of English
>descent, and their son married
>an Australian girl with English
>ancestors, and their son (my
>husband) married me, who has
>English and Irish ancestors, including
>an English convict.
>
>Would I feel all teary and
>felt like I was "coming
>home" if I visited England
>or Ireland. Nope -
>Australia is my home.
>I have no overwhelming burning
>desire to visit England or
>Ireland to search for my
>roots. My roots are
>here in Australia, where I
>was born, where my parents
>were born, where my grandparents
>were born and where some
>of my great grandparents were
>born.
>
>If I do get the opportunity
>to travel overseas, I want
>to go to Canada.

The comparison between these countries and regions is very different from comparing America to Senegal, or Ethiopia, or South Africa. In Ireland, England, and Australia, the skin color of the people is predominantly White. When an African American goes from America to one of the African countries, the predominant skin color changes from White to Black. I know that to you it is "just skin color", and I wish more people thought that way, but like I said before, since so much rides on your skin color, it is just that much more important.

>In Ireland, England, and Australia, the skin color of the
>people is predominantly White. When an African American goes
>from America to one of the African countries, the predominant
>skin color changes from White to Black. I know that to you it is
>"just skin color", and I wish more people thought that
>way, but like I said before, since so much rides
>on your skin color, it is just that much more important.

Except that, by African standards, many people who are classified as and think of themselves as "black" (because of the classification standards toward "multiracial" people still prevalent in the U.S.) would be considered to be white.

When does the "hypo-descent rule," which appears to be an American peculiarity, finally end?

>If I do get the opportunity
>to travel overseas, I want
>to go to Canada.

You'd be welcomed up here! Lots of great places to see and to do.

Scratch and sniff
"Tsk, tsk. Pepe's messing with the newbies again." Spidey, 3/30/05

Great post. I was thinking this very thing as I was reading through.

I was born in Canada, therefore I am Canadian, period. Unlike America, which is built on the "melting pot" theory of immigration, we are "multi-cultural". This has a variety of different problems, such as when people come here from other countries they tend to move to the neighbourhoods where their own have settled, thus creating their own little countries within the city. The problem here is no-one assimilates, no-one becomes "Canadian" per se. This leads to a strain on our programs, such as the education system for example. There is a great deal of money spent on English as a Second Language because anyone who comes here continues to live in a non-english speaking home. There are no incentives to blend in, to become Canadian, to embrace the country they chose.

I guess my point is, if you choose to come to a country, then embrace it as your chosen home.

And here is where I put on the asbestos suit. Having used the word "chosen" I realize the slaves were stolen from their homeland, but I'm fairly certain no-one is holding the black Americans against their will these days.

I agree with Sizzlean 100% and I've said it before in other forums. I black but I've never been to Africa and really have no drive or desire to go. I was born in america and just consider myself a black american. I have co-workers who are white that ARE from Africa and I think if we're going to have African American scholarships and the like, they should be more eligible than I as they are actually FROM Africa and that's the term everyone chooses to use.

r u a bot?

I seem to recall reading about a white South African who applied for an African American scholarship and was refused because he wasn't black. The scholarship was targetted at black African Americans. Could someone who was from another continent, and also black, be able to claim they were African American and therefore qualify?

It's interesting watching the Olympic Games and seeing the different ethnic backgrounds of some of the athletes. Black athletes representing Scandinavian countries, white athletes representing African countries. The world is on the move, and that's why I think labelling people by their country of origin (or their great great grandparent's country or continent of origin) is just too weird. As far as I am aware America is the only country that labels people that way.

LAST EDITED ON 04-13-05 AT 00:34 AM (EST)

>that's why I think labelling people by their country of origin (or their great great
>grandparent's country or continent of origin) is just too weird.
> As far as I am aware America is the only country that labels people that way.

I'm sorry to note that your last sentence doesn't match my experiences in the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, labeling by country of origin is prevalent everywhere ... and without the hyphenate that the U.S. uses. Turks who come to Germany are still Turks, even if they were born in Germany and speak German. Palestinians who have lived their entire lives in Kuwait are still Palestinians (they aren't even permitted to become citizens of Kuwait). The Netherlands is rife with ethnic and religious conflict between citizens from the former Dutch East Indies (i.e., Indonesia) and "native" Dutchmen. Et cetera.

Heck, soccer fans in Scotland booed a moment of silence for the Pope this week because their team was playing against Celtic -- the team supported by Irish immigrants to Scotland, who are generally Catholic.

Soylent Green: recycling America, one person at a time.

Wow. I'm not an idiot then? I really was posing this as a real question. I simply never understood the connection. Although, some people have posted things that do make me understand it to a certain extent. Although the person who posted that they had a Canadian flag tattooed on their body kind of disturbed me.

Why would it disturb you that I have maple leaf tattoo? It is a really common thing in Canada. I know tons of people who have the exact same tattoo. Maybe it is a Canadian thing. Which is weird because Americans are always that ones touted as being so patriotic.

And I don't want to insult you so realize I think the following suggestion may improve your understanding about what some blacks feel about Africa.

One) Don't make excuses - please, please, please take a trip to Germany. The results may surprise you. If your parents spent any time at talking to you about Germany when you were a child and additionally if they spoke German to you then, you will notice a big diffirence going to Germany vs other European countries.

Without being able to verbally point out the diffirence, I bet you find yourself more comfortable in Germany than other European countries. Try it, even if I am wrong it is worth the trip alone.

Two) Do a trip in Japan, get off the beaten path. Learn what it feels like when people whisper behind your back everywhere that you go. Parents pull thier children in close as you past them. Inns and Baths refuse you entry because you are clearly not Japanese.

I think you will develop a better understanding why some blacks act the way they do.

On the other hand not all blacks are like that. Personally my 'motherland' is space - the places I want to be are White Sands, Black Rock and China Lake - God I wish I could go to China Lake and look at thier files - Heaven. But I am Canadian at present and would not be let in.

I don't see what the problem is with Blacks feeling a strong connection with Africa? I find it weird that people would not feel a connection with the country their ancestors orginated from. I'm canadian and love my country. I have the canadian flag tattooed on my body. I have never for a moment not felt canadian but I definetly still feel the urge to seek out my roots and know the cultures of my ancestors. My mother's family orignally came from the Ukraine and my dad is from Trinidad, with his family from Africa and India. I don't think it makes me less of a canadian for wanting to know my background. I know that if I went to Africa I would feel that same way that many of the black TAR competitors do. And with slavery how are we to know which African country our ancestors came from?

When the world cup is on and everyone with Italian heritage is cheering for Italy, I do not feel that they are any less canadian. It is wonderful that people are able to embrace their cultures and those of their ancestors without being made to feel any less Canadian.

At the same time I don't feel that it is good to be consumed with race. It is only one component of who we are as individuals. But the U.S still seems to be so consumed with Black verus White and I guess that won't change anytime soon.

Alright bacon, I'll bite (not hard )

We all know that there have been white slaves, black slaves, brown slaves, purple slaves, etc. We all know that various peoples have enslaved other peoples throughout history and sometimes it was class/caste based and sometimes it was nationality/race-based. But the differences between African slavery in America (and in other countries, to some extent) and 'other' slavery situations are fairly extensive.

First and foremost, you have an entire race of people who are taken thousands of miles from their homes, to another continent in order to have their lives, cultures, language, religions, names, identities, families, etc. taken away. Then you have hundreds of years of this practice, which virtually destroys any and all association to your history as a people/culture. That doesn't mean that you don't or shouldn't feel a connection to what was once yours and what, in all likelihood would have been had it not been for the actions of others. It just means that the connection is that much more difficult to see on the outside. It just means that you'll probably never know where your ancestors came from, what their culture was before it was stripped of them. It means that you take what you can get.

You said that you are German. I am too. I am German, Irish, Scottish, and Hungarian (and a little bith of some other things, too). Guess what? African Americans, by in large, have absolutely NO idea what their ethnic origins are other than that their families came from Africa at some point in history. You and I can say what our connections are or aren't because we know where out families come from. My dh is one of the VERY fortunate few who knows where some of his ancestors came from (his father's side originated in Cote d'Ivoire - Ivory Coast), but most don't have a clue because their ancestors weren't allowed to associate with their roots/histories. Pretty depressing, don't you think?

African slaves were treated like property in just about every way imaginable. Indentured servitude cannot be compared to what they endured (chattel slavery - and a different kind of chattel slavery than was really ever seen at any other point in history up to this point in time) - there was no foreseeable end to their "servitude" and they were basically at the sole mercy of their 'masters' (and eventually the legal system) for defining who they were, what they were, and whether they would be considered property for 20 years or for life (and most of the time, it didn't matter if they were eventually considered "indentured servants" - either by 'legal definition' or by their 'master' - because for all intents and purposes they were treated as slaves). There are so many aspects of African chattel slavery that would result in a desire to go 'back to your roots' - it can be hard to understand for non-black individuals because they have absolutely no frame of reference (nothing remotely close) that could be analgous.

I know that if I traveled to Africa (and I plan to at some point in my lifetime...hopefully sooner rather than later), I would have that same sort of moving experience that the Black TAR folks have had - because of my close connection to the struggles of Black Americans (I'm married to one and my daughter is, obviously, Black) and because of my understanding and appreciation of the history of chattel slavery as a result of my education (I studied Africana Studies in college - far and away the most thought-provoking and demanding courses I had in college). The 'connection' that many people feel when they travel to "the motherland" is a result of centuries of disconnectedness from all that they knew before the slave-trade. When you go to the place where your ancestors took their last breath as a human being (because we all know that slaves in America were not seen as human beings), I cannot imagine NOT being moved immensely. The connection is certainly not imaginary...sure maybe on the outside it seems imaginary, but when your entire understanding of your cultural roots is that your people lived somewhere on the continent of Africa, you cherish that.

It really runs SO much deeper than skin color. If you still can't really understand what I'm getting at, feel free to PM me. I don't have the time to further explain my feelings on the subject right now but I'd be more than happy to share at another time.

Sorry if it's a jumbled mess...I went back and added some things here and there.

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