Long-time lurker since before Survivor-China here….LOVE the hard work and thoughtful analysis by all! Here’s my first contribution to your analysts’ stew.

- Ozzie: Is he getting the Terry Dietz edit? Remember Terry and Bob-Gabon standing on top of their little mountains, surveying their respective kingdoms? Ozzie had no mountains (??), but last night he stood in a palm tree. What does that say about his chances of winning? Bob won. Terry “should’ve” won, based on the non-binding “recount” that Jeff conducted at his reunion.

Which pattern fits? I say Terry. Bob was not shown saying anything cocky, even when making his fake idol. Terry was shown with two bad moments. I wondered at the time if TPTB had to scour the tapes to find ANY bad moments to justify his loss. No such problem with Jiffy’s younger favorite.

- Looking like Jesus Christ: Ozzie AND Coach, Ozzie much more strongly. Who talks more like the Bible quotes? Coach. Remember his “I am not worthy” moment? It reminded me a little of the Garden of Gethsemane. Both are getting a strong redemption edit, the season’s theme but not necessarily the winner’s theme.

- Other Biblical references: Brandon called Mikayla “Delilah,” although she demonstrated no behavior that would match the title. Who came closest to being a “Delilah”? Elysse, Whitney next, Semhar maybe? We saw longhaired Samson-Ozzie susceptible to them in varying degrees (AND of course to Amanda in Heroes Vs. Villains, to a much stronger degree).

The Bible shows Samson as a hero who was blinded but then brought the house down trying to destroy the Philistines. Ozzie “killed”” the “Philistine” at hand, Christine. He may “kill” one or two more. But Samson did not bring down the Philistine Empire; he just destroyed the leaders of one city-state. Ozzie can be a “hero with faults” to many, but that may or may not be enough for a total victory.

- Cochran vs. Cirie, vs. Todd-China and vs. Stephen-Tocantins? All four are quote machines, strategists AND betrayers of former allies. However, there is only one winner among the three previous contestants. Articulate Todd defeated teary Amanda. But charismatic AND articulate JT de-railed Stephen. Cochran has shown traits of Todd and Stephen, but also of Amanda. (Nerves, self-doubt, etc.)

Unlike Cirie, he seems to embrace the dual role of lovable/villainous. But Cirie never expressed the insecurity Cochran still shows. And unlike Amanda, Cochran is finally taking responsibility for his actions. But can he finally deliver her actual, behind-the-scenes strategic acumen?

- Who’s being cocky? It seems to depend upon one’s personal preferences. There are many candidates, two of whom have played twice before and have created impressions that are etched in stone for many people.

- What would Tom Westman do? And who most closely fits the Tom Westman mold?
> Like Ozzie, he’d find the idol, provide huge fish for his tribe, and win most challenges. Like Ozzie, he had flaws, two of which were shown (pressuring Ian, drunken tabletop performance). Unlike Ozzie, he was not shown with a temper or displaying petty moments. Also, I don’t remember him making any clear declarations of “I will never give up,” or “I will beat all comers.” His carriage implied the first; modesty and diplomacy prevented the latter.
> Like Albert, he’d combine physical challenge prowess with clear speech and insight into other players.
> Like Coach, he’d use diplomacy and rule-by-consensus to keep his tribe strong. Like Coach, he had onion layers to his alliances, even his pre-game alliance with Stephanie. Like Coach, he’d find the idol with only one clue, and pick the right players for the right roles in challenges. He’d also pressure Cochran the way he pressured Ian. Unlike Coach, he would not lead prayer groups (saying faith is a private matter), nor push someone to kneel or to join a group. And for Coach’s Dragon-Chi, substitute fishing or chopping wood.
> Would Tom smile or look satisfied at the results of tribal council? You betcha. Would he sit out a challenge to eat? No. But if he were questioned as Coach was, would he laugh? You betcha.

What do Tom Westman and Terry Dietz have to do with the Redemption Island theme? Jiffy still calls Tom “one of the two or three best players to ever play Survivor.” He painted Terry as the real winner at the reunion. I think he thinks these two represent the best of Survivor, and that “Redemption” involves growing up to be more like them.
Jiffy clearly wants to show both Ozzie and Coach growing up to be either Tom or Terry. Mission accomplished. Winner’s edit? Maybe yes, may no.

He also clearly wants to show Cochran as Todd-Stephen. Why? Perhaps because those two consistently turn down his invitations to return? Can he get Cochran to return? You betcha. Can Cochran pull a Todd and win? Maybe yes, maybe no.

I’m sorry, I meant to keep this short. Have at it! And come back Corvis!

• RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,dabo, 04:04 PM, 11-10-11
  • RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,Delurker_MN, 05:25 PM, 11-12-11
    • RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,dabo, 06:01 PM, 11-12-11
      • RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,Delurker_MN, 01:18 AM, 11-13-11
• RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,Belle Book, 05:44 PM, 11-10-11
• RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,Outfrontgirl, 10:58 PM, 11-11-11
  • RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,Delurker_MN, 06:17 PM, 11-12-11
    • RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,Outfrontgirl, 08:31 PM, 11-12-11
      • RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,Delurker_MN, 01:03 AM, 11-13-11
        • RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,PepeLePew13, 12:59 PM, 11-13-11
        • RE: Stray Observations Post-Episode 9,Outfrontgirl, 08:25 PM, 11-13-11

Welcome, D-MN. Always good to have new voices here, and I like your thoughts, some interesting observations. I notice you also posted on the editing thread, did you mean this to be a No Spoilers thread as well?

Thank you all for the kind welcome! Yes, I meant to post this in the Veruca Salt thread, and not start a new thread. I e-mailed a moderator about taking it down, but haven't heard back so far. I also apologize for not responding sooner. I got embarrassed after posting this and was reluctant to see the responses.

Outfrontgirl, you are out front in your thinking, as always! I didn't mean to say that they were "supposed" to turn out like Tom, Terry, Stephen, Todd, et al, only that I see some familiar tricks showing up in the edits of Ozzie, Coach and Cochran, and wanted to speculate as to the messages being sent.

My own bottom line opinion is that I think TPTB edit not just for good viewing for the average entertainer, and not just to justify the winner. I'm wondering if, after the goldmine they think they found with Russell Hantz, if perhaps they are now looking at who they want to invite back in the future. They can't get certain fan favorites and fan favorite villains anymore for a 2nd-3rd-4th go-round. Terry, for example, got burned when he was picked as a member of an alternate Favorites tribe for Fans Vs. Favorites. He might be saying no if asked. Tom has already declared twice that he won't return. Now Amanda has.

I will probably use the Veruca Salt thread as per community custom, unless someone thinks there's enough meat in this topic to continue this thread. But I will check both.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Ah. Don't worry about the mods, they take it easy on newbies, and even us oldbies rarely hear back from them. We go with the flow around here.

As far as the edit, with two returning attention grabbing DAWs, TPTB are making the best of what they got. Don't know why they thought Russhantz was such a goldmine, much as I enjoyed his getting booted it was their own fault they cast him a third time; I blame them, their own stupidity for making that decision in the first place. Lilhantz was an even worse casting choice.

The series is getting old, running out of steam, not much original can happen. Even the twists are getting lame, Boring Island is, you know, bo-ring. They need to get back to basics, the essential game is still a great game. And go back to casting for diversity instead of demographics. Wannabe actors and models were bad enough, these pageant queens and country singers are just dull as heck.

I hear you, and I do think that, if they were going introduce twists, they should go back to basics and design challenges that more closely resemble Survivor camplife skills.

They could design better gender-equal challenges than some of the ones they recycle. I've got some ideas myself, even though I'm not qualified to join his challenge design team.

On casting: I think they cast the newbies much better this time, though. Semhar was the only question mark for me, although I would have had to think some more about Stacey and Edna (whom I love) before casting them.

Survivor Guatamala strikes me as where they seriously went off the track in terms of twists and casts. Besides bringing Bobby Jon and Stephanie back, they also went with celebrity casting (Gary Hogeboom) and beauty queens. Didn't Danni participate in beauty contests before she began sports reporting?

Jeff seems to really, really like the "twists" (outcasts, Exile Island, Redemption Island, returnees, et al) but he also recycles too many past challenges. Of course, he has to promote the show, even if he secretly thinks something isn't working.

Redemption Island will probably fade away, as Exile Island did, but we're probably stuck with returnees. That's why I think he's editing Rob Mariano, Ozzie and Coach so well. Too many of his past favorites are reluctant to return, and he seems to think that he needs familiar names to draw more viewers.

I think Ozzy is more like Terry, which means he won't win. He'll get far but he won't win. If Coach is more like Tom, that's a good thing for Coach, although Tom lost in Heroes vs. Villains. And Cochran could either be like Todd and win or Stephen and just lose. I'm going for the latter, at least this time around for Cochran.

I really do like your thoughts.

I do not think that either Coach or Ozzy are portrayed as Terry or Tom though.

Tom and Terry both had high-adrenaline professions that required mental toughness and courage, the type of A-guys that EPM admires. Firefighter and fighter pilot. Both Captain America types. Both were "older" men who amazed people at their strength of iron in their original seasons.

Ozzy is a 30 year old surfer/waiter. Coach is a conductor wannabe celebrity. Both Coach and Ozzy lean towards the long hair, alternate culture type, both are as interested in the mental state of going into the wild as they are in pure game.

Neither Coach nor Ozzy really need to be edited as someone else. They have been on enough times to be themselves. Also, Survivor has been pretty good about showing different types of winners and not having one or two winner types, even amongst the male winners.

Stephen was always likable, so I won't compare him to Cochran. SEG might. I compare him more to Rob C. Rob C was on the fringe and nearly got voted out. He was saved by the swap. He wasn't afraid to switch loyalties. But RobC was more likable IMHO.

It's hard to compare Cochran with Todd, because Todd had control of the game the entire time. Todd had people skills. He was a flight attendant and managed people in his work. He pulled together an alliance. Cochran hasn't done anything but defect and fail at challenges.

Even Terry and Tom played very different games due to circumstance. As the minority at merge, Terry had to play Ozzy's game, win, win, win. Only he succeeded, almost. Survivor loves a real immunity run.

Tom ran his alliance. He played more like Brian Heidik, except that his alliance never had any opposition. Tom was lucky that his tribe had a few weak and weak-minded players. Janu, Willard, Coby ... and he had a great goat in Katy. Also he had Ian as his right hand man. Really, if anyone has repeated Tom's game, I would say Boston Rob did it last season.

Coach is running his alliance, but not nearly as obviously as Rob did. That will make it hard for him to win if his alliance succeeds. It was so obvious that no one on Ometepe had played the game Rob had done, he had to win. With Coach, the returning player stigma would likely be a problem.

While Ozzy could likely win if he goes all the way, he has no real friends on the jury, not to the extent that Terry did. He sort of bungled the early part of the game. Had he not gotten obviously attached to Semhar and then Elyse, his tribe would have been more cohesive, booted Cochran, and had a shot at the numbers. But even Terry could not win every single challenge.

Thanks for the additional information! I missed Brian's season; I should see if it is on U-Tube et al. (I started watching with Season 8-Vanuatu.) Captain America it is, for Terry and Tom, absolutely. And I didn't really remember if Ozzie had jury friends in Cook Islands or if Terry had them in his season. Nice to have that pointed out; I'll remember and certainly borrow (:>) that line of reasoning!

Regarding Boston Rob: I thought that too! His game reminded me more of Tom's. I wasn't sure Tom's game would be enough to win these days, but Rob looked overwhelming.

Is a subtler approach by Coach (of all people!) really a bad thing at jury phase? I think of it as having less negativity to charm away. I thought it was brilliant of him to have Albert and Sophie propose the final-4 alliance with Cochran; they would then possibly get burned for "betrayal."

Self-disclosure here: I am not a Coach fan, but I don't have the same level of negativity towards him as I've seen from some on these boards. Dragon-chi doesn't strike me as kooky.

My reasons: I ran road races, took karate lessons and played hard-ball boys'-style game sports long, long, before Title VI! (Confession: I am an "old lady" of .... who still looks and performs mid-to-late 30s.) Also, I have taken both hatha yoga and Tai-Chi classes. Coach's variation looks interesting, not kooky.

What I remember most about Coach's 1st season is not his tall tales nor his conducting of an imaginary symphony (3rd most memorable Coach moment for me). What I remember most is what his lady friend said at the reunion: "That's not the man that I know and love." That resonated.

Thanks for the reply!

I should say that I don't think Terry had the jury sewed up on a social level. He had Austin and Sally, his La Mina compadres. And he had to have respect votes for being a challenge monster. Casaya was so dysfunctional, who knows?

I don't think that Tai Chi is kooky at all. Nor do I hate Coach.
However, he does spend more time not only thinking about his own image but talking about it to the camera than most people. Image image image. He should try being a little spontaneous.

I think Coach is playing a terrific game. The minefield is just ahead now. We'll see.

Ozzy reminds me more of Aras than Tom or Terry. He tries to be that person he wants to be, but he has outbursts and he talks about patience but he doesn't possess much of it. Like Rob Mariano, Ozzy gravitates to cute young women. But if you think about it, the is no male player other than Rob Mariano (or Russell) who has won or even made F2 using the showmance or pretty girl ally strategy. Ozzy said he wasn't going to do it again, but he fell right into it, and neither Tom nor Terry would have approved.

As for Rob, he and Amber were careful to hide the strength of their alliance for some time, and in 22, he also did not have a girlfriend or get caught up in it. People in his alliance really did not catch on that he had selected Natalie from Day One. Same with Russell and his "secret" alliance. Ozzy blew the game for Savai'i by pairing up too openly, basically playing the game as if he were on Big Brother (where it is still a dangerous strategy).

Ozzie to Aras? That's a great comparison. However, even though I didn't like Aras and I used to be a huge Ozzie fan, I can't see Aras blowing it in so many areas. His friendship with Danielle was never painted as a showmance, and I can't see him kicking the boards over a loss.

I used to be a huge Ozzie fan, but I'm having trouble giving him a 3rd chance this time. Boston Rob just set the bar way too high for returnees wanting to show that they've learned and changed their games.

It doesn't help that Coach seems to have studied Rob as if Rob were The Sensei (or Sufi) of Survivor.

On Rob Mariano: I'm sure that he probably studied the strategies and styles of all predecessors who were known for doing well or poorly here, including Tom. He really was a case of having been given too many seasons to learn more. Didn't he start out with a reasonably good game? Then his pairings with Amber on Survivor and Amazing Race showed considerable growth as a person and partner.

Tom may also have studied the greats you and your colleagues cite, but I do think he played the game the way he lives. I know a social worker who flew to New York to help conduct survivor guilt groups among the firefighters and cops who survived 9-11. My friend could not say anything about those seminars and groups, but she did say that, with Tom Westman, what you see is what you get.

Question: Why didn't anyone on Savaii think of coaching Cochran on challenge skills? If it were me, I'd want to minimize the damage he could cause at challenges. Although if it were me on Survivor, I wouldn't be the one teaching challenge skills and survivor skills! I would be the pest tagging along and asking incessant questions so that I could improve!

>Question: Why didn't anyone on Savaii
>think of coaching Cochran on
>challenge skills? If it were
>me, I'd want to minimize
>the damage he could cause
>at challenges.

Agree, a smart 'coach' type would have found a way to work around weak spots on the tribe. For example, I'd have put Cochran out there in the field to be dragged around, a la Joel/Chet. He can hurt the tribe less this way.

>>> Ozzie to Aras? That's a great comparison. However, even though I didn't like Aras and I used to be a huge Ozzie fan, I can't see Aras blowing it in so many areas. His friendship with Danielle was never painted as a showmance, and I can't see him kicking the boards over a loss.

Right, no, sorry that I wasn't more clear. I was comparing the two in a couple ways, but then intended to be contrasting Ozzie and his showmance ways to Aras' play.

Aras didn't have a showmance, and he took Cirie on his big reward, not Danielle. One of the smartest things that Aras did was go from dissing Cirie at the beginning (not noble at all) to bonding with Cirie. He even voted to keep Cirie over Danielle at F4

The moment I was thinking of where Aras lost his cool was when he got into it with Bruce -- I think it was over Bruce's zen garden OCD trip. It's been a long time since I saw that season though.

One could also compare/contrast Cirie and Cochran to look at how Cochran will never be remembered as the non-camper who could. Cirie was a couch potato who was scared of the outdoors. She was scared of leaves. She was on the chopping block if not that Melissa was even more of a liability.

However, Cirie found a way to be a challenge asset when she went all out in the dragging people around challenge. She used her weight that was her liability.

Instead of talking obsessively about how her insecurities, she found a role in the tribe. By the end, she even brought them a big fish. Strategically, she got rid of the two biggest goats so that she could be Aras' goat. It almost worked.

Maybe Cochran will start to get somewhere now with Upolu, but he sure played like crap with Savai'i.